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Jonathan
11-07-2001, 04:42 PM
About three months or so after I had obtained my shodan rank I met my shihan again at another of his seminars. He called me up to be uke for a suwari waza demonstration of kata-tori nikyo. When he applied nikyo he did not stop exerting pressure even after I lay flat and tapped to indicate pain. Instead, he slowly but steadily stretched my wrist til I thought it would break. When he finally let me up he slapped me on the back and with a grin loudly announced to those watching that I was a new shodan.

Afterward, my wrist swelled up and was very sore for three months. Actually, its never been the same. My right wrist, the one he cranked, is now less flexible than my left. He has done this a couple of other times since.

What do you think about this sort of thing? Good? Bad? Do you have any similar stories?

PeterR
11-07-2001, 05:01 PM
At least he didn't break it - I've heard of far worse trials by fire. I didn't stop leaking for two weeks after my shodan from all the dogi and mat burns not too mention the wounds where the head shaving took some skin.

shihonage
11-07-2001, 05:01 PM
Yes. These guys always slap you on the back and grin after [nearly] breaking your wrist.

L. Camejo
11-07-2001, 05:10 PM
Hi Jonathan,

I can empathise with you.

I had both my wrists sprained within a matter of weeks of each other during randori with my sensei a few years ago. Sankyo was applied, the joint was near its limit, but I did not tap out, so he turned a second time. AS he began the second turn the technique was on and I tapped, but it was too late. The same thing happened a few weeks later on the next side after the first had swollen up.

If nothing else, I learned how to effectively counter sankyo (tenkai kotehineri for Shodokan guys) since then :)

Since then they've actually gotten more flexible, and I've become almost immune to most wrist techniques. However, they both have a constant clicking noise and tend to hurt when the weather gets colder.

Personally, I believe that all Aikidoka should develop a feel for joint locks to understand the point of tightness where the lock is on and learn to stop as soon as a tap is heard. Especially higher grades who tend to do techniques with more speed and fluidity.

When I signed on for Aikido I knew it was a martial art and as such, damage could happen, so I prepared myself for the eventuality. However, I think Aiki means "harmony of energy" - in this case the tori should be able to feel the point of tension of a joint lock and harmonise with the uke by maintaining enough pressure to control, but not so much as to damage.

If we ignore control in our Aikido technique, we might as well be doing old style combat Aikijujitsu (where I experienced a similar misfortune to that described above) an start breaking and straining joints.

Hope I didn't ramble 2 much.
L.C.:ai::ki:

PeterR
11-07-2001, 05:23 PM
Count on Larry to be sensible (waves)

There are rights of passage in any group and usually involve things far beyond what you normally get in training. I alluded to some that I experienced and there are many other examples - they are often unique to a group.

If Shodan let's say was just a test on techniques that you have been preparing for then the Shodan would be anticlimatic. You need something else. I bet within a year you will be telling your kohei about that god awfull nikkyo rather than any technique you performed.

You will heal.

deepsoup
11-07-2001, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan
About three months or so after I had obtained my shodan rank I met my shihan again at another of his seminars. He called me up to be uke for a suwari waza demonstration of kata-tori nikyo. When he applied nikyo he did not stop exerting pressure even after I lay flat and tapped to indicate pain. Instead, he slowly but steadily stretched my wrist til I thought it would break. When he finally let me up he slapped me on the back and with a grin loudly announced to those watching that I was a new shodan.

Afterward, my wrist swelled up and was very sore for three months. Actually, its never been the same. My right wrist, the one he cranked, is now less flexible than my left. He has done this a couple of other times since.

What do you think about this sort of thing? Good? Bad? Do you have any similar stories?

The nearest experience I've had to that was at a seminar quite a few years ago. Nobody there had any real experience of aikido, least of all me. As a fit young judo shodan (like I said, quite a few years ago! :)) I was one of only a couple of students with confident ukemi, and ended up being the instructors uke a lot of the time.

At one point he pinned me, and when I tapped out he backed off only slightly, told me I was too tense, and if I'd only relax there was a lot more stretch in there. He then had me breathe deeply, and slowly extended the lock much further than I'd thought possible. When I tapped this time, he released the lock immediately, and said 'well done'.

That was entirely a positive experience, and stays with me even now.

But Jonathon, what you describe sounds like a kind of affectionate bullying. I doesn't seem like a good thing to me at all, it seems rather creepy I'm afraid. :rolleyes:

Peter R wrote:There are rights of passage in any group and usually involve things far beyond what you normally get in training. I alluded to some that I experienced and there are many other examples - they are often unique to a group.

If Shodan let's say was just a test on techniques that you have been preparing for then the Shodan would be anticlimatic.
I dont think those kinds of rites of passage involved with a group (what makes me so sure you're talking about an all male group, btw?) have anything to do with aikido. Squaddies, rugby players, that kind of male bonding malarky goes on all over the place, which is all well and good.

There is definitely a place for that kind of ritual, you go out into the jungle a boy, kill an otter with nothing but a plastic spoon, plait a cd rack out of your eyebrows and return... a MAN!! :p

Beyond a bit of friendly rivalry in the randori, I dont think theres any place for that kind of horseplay on the mat though.

When I got my judo shodan, it was a terrible anticlimax. I'd been so determined to get my black-belt that it hadn't really occurred to me I'd still have a lifetime of training ahead of me before I would get anywhere. I was young and daft, and became rather disillusioned.

I'll be testing for shodan again (Shodokan this time) in a month or two, and this time I dont intend to make the same mistake. If I'm successful, it means the end of a few short years as a kyu grade, which against the backdrop of a whole lifetime of training is pretty small beer. I know that when I put that black-belt on for the first time, I'll be exactly the same guy who was wearing a brown-belt the week before. (Thank goodness I dont have to cope with falling over an unfamiliar hakama, the way new shodans in other styles often do!)

'Beginning step' indeed. :)

Sean
x

Brian Crowley
11-07-2001, 08:09 PM
Jonathan,

To me this sounds like a mean-spirited violation of your trust. You placed you safety in his hands. He took advantage of your trust and caused you months of discomfort - probably physical and mental. I think it is dangerous to dismiss this a trial by fire or rite of passage. In my opinion, for something to be a trial by fire or right of passage (at least in the dojo), the person must voluntarily subject himself to it. You were laying unsuspecting on the mat and he did what any thug off the street could have done to you in that position.

Peter is correct in that the Shodan test can be more than a test of techniques, however there are much better ways to make the test memorable than getting in a cheap shot on your student 3 months after the test !

I don't have any stories like this, however you will find a few of them in the book Dueling with O-Sensei (by Ellis Amdur). Great book. I recommend you read it.

Brian

jedd
11-07-2001, 08:25 PM
If anyone here watches Star Trek this could resemble the Klingon's "right of ascension" where the inductee walks through a corridor of his superiors and gets zapped with "pain sticks" in order to become a "man". Anyway, I can understand applying focused technique at the shodan level or above (especially during demonstrations). However, if anyone intentionally broke a limb or joint of mine they would receive the same sucker punch--after which I would quit and join a real Aikido club.

Erik
11-07-2001, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Jonathan
Afterward, my wrist swelled up and was very sore for three months. Actually, its never been the same. My right wrist, the one he cranked, is now less flexible than my left. He has done this a couple of other times since.

You tapped and it was ignored.

Call him on it. Ask him why he kept the pressure on after you had tapped. His answer, or lack thereof, will tell you a great deal. Have you talked to your sensei about this? Or, is he your sensei? Of course, you risk ruining the relationship this way but it's a relationship that isn't doing too well anyway.

You tap, the move ends and pressure is released. Personal experience tells me it is never exactly that clean but this is a matter that you should be concerned about. You've been injured. I could sort of buy into this if he hadn't hurt you because you might not know your limits. However, he has injured you and so it's not really negotiable in my mind.

This is not a right of passage and I second the reading of Ellis Amdur's book.

PS: I have to be honest and say that I would never get on the mat with that man again. You seem to be wanting a way to work things out so I tried to give you one. I hope it does come to a positive conclusion but I'm betting you aren't the first person he's injured and....I think you can figure the rest out.

guest1234
11-07-2001, 09:28 PM
Well, I've done some pretty silly male bonding things in my time, like chugging a liter of 7-up on my green bean run in Korea, and snorting cayenne pepper at my first dojo...:eek:

But those were voluntary stupid acts.

:rolleyes:

If this were a thread about a kyu student, or even a dan student twisting the wrist of a kohai after he'd tapped, especially to the point that it was injured, we'd have nothing but condemnation for the thug. How much more so when the one twisting is in theory able to feel when a joint is near the point of damage?:(

One of my favorite teachers can immediately find the limit of my quite flexible joints when using me for uke, and is never shy about keeping me on the edge of tapping through a technique. But when I tap, he releases, and has never hurt me. I don't think I could respect someone who injured me on purpose.

Jonathan
11-07-2001, 09:32 PM
Well, this is quite an array of responses. Actually, I am nearing my sandan test so this experience I shared was some time ago. He has pinned me just as hard since -- one time I was certain he had broken my wrist! You know, I never felt that he was pinning me hard out of a mean spirit. As many of you suggested, it seems to me to be a rite of passage or test of martial spirit.

My shihan is from Japan and doesn't speak english well. It has been hard, consequently, to discover why he does this sort of thing. The most I have gathered is that such painful moments characterized his own training. My shihan is one tough nut and, as perverse as this may sound, I kind of like that he is this way, even if it means I get roughed up a bit. I fear I have painted a dark picture of my shihan; but he is not this way. He has been surprisingly gentle at times (not so much with me)and has a ready smile.

I didn't intend to sound as though I was complaining about my injuries. Not at all! I just wondered how commonplace this kind of treatment was in the Aikido world. My purpose in posting was along the lines of "you show me your bullet wound and I'll show you mine".

Anyway, thanks for your replies!

jedd
11-07-2001, 10:40 PM
Jonathon, "Shihans" are human too, what he did was wrong...he is not furthering your development by inflicting injury and I would really question his intentions

Erik
11-07-2001, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by ca
If this were a thread about a kyu student, or even a dan student twisting the wrist of a kohai after he'd tapped, especially to the point that it was injured, we'd have nothing but condemnation for the thug.

I think you nailed it here.

Young-In Park
11-08-2001, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by ca

If this were a thread about a kyu student, or even a dan student twisting the wrist of a kohai after he'd tapped, especially to the point that it was injured, we'd have nothing but condemnation for the thug.


If your sensei, especially a shihan, demonstrates twisting the wrist even after your partner taps out, that is what you're supposed to do.

Anything less should be considered disrespectful to the sensei, bad form and/or arrogance.

Hopefully you're a higher rank than your partner so you can go first...

YoungIn Park

Young-In Park
11-08-2001, 02:40 AM
hopefully everyone can see the sarcasm in my previous post...

YoungIn Park

Anne
11-08-2001, 04:45 AM
At my dojo, everbody with confident ukemi can and will be called up to be uke for demonstrating a technique. And of course, you want to look good, make your sensei look good, show nice ukemi, etc. I have very flexible joints but find myself letting them get stretched a bit more when being uke for sensei. BUT, when you slap, it has to be over. Anyone, even a shihan, has to respect that. It's your body. If sensei wants to demonstate a particular thing about a lock, at least the pressure has to be released.

Anne

ian
11-08-2001, 07:49 AM
Absolutely agree. Although you can generally get a 'feel' for how much pain you are applying, not stopping when someone taps suggests a lack of respect for you and is very dangerous and iresponsible. I'm sure if you did that to someone else in his class he would be very severe. Such double standards would suggest that the Shihan has an ego problem. Unfortuantely not everyone who learns martial arts uses it wisely. I expect it was a 'rites of passage' excercise, but there are far far better ones (such as severe excercise) which would not damage you, not produce a loss of respect (and trust) for the Shihan, and probably be of some benefit.

If aikido has taught me anything, it is that I am no better nor any worse than anyone else, even the most violent attacker. These actions suggest that this Shihan does not feel this way. Is he sincerely trying to teach you to become good at aikido or is he just a show off in a skirt? Whats the point of learning a self-defence if your instructor damages you more than an attacker would?

Ian

ian
11-08-2001, 08:00 AM
Also reminds me of a time I joined an 'Aikido' club in West Drayton (London). I found it strange because they never moved off centre line and they blocked attacks rather than re-directing energy (I'd seen more fluid ju-jitsu sessions). I mentioned this to the instructor at the end (privately), whence he pinned me and proceeded to inflict as much pain as possible on various joints. Nothing was broken (though I had some serious bruising). Admittedly he was very good at pins, but he didn't prove anything to me except he was not confident in his own abilities. Obviously I never went back.

Ian

PeterR
11-08-2001, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by deepsoup
At one point he pinned me, and when I tapped out he backed off only slightly, told me I was too tense, and if I'd only relax there was a lot more stretch in there. He then had me breathe deeply, and slowly extended the lock much further than I'd thought possible. When I tapped this time, he released the lock immediately, and said 'well done'.

I have done this and have had it done to me. Part of the job of instructor is to push you beyond where you think you are capable of going.

But Jonathon, what you describe sounds like a kind of affectionate bullying. I doesn't seem like a good thing to me at all, it seems rather creepy I'm afraid. :rolleyes:

I saw it the same way as what you described happened to you - it wasn't a brutal crank just slow and steady.

I dont think those kinds of rites of passage involved with a group (what makes me so sure you're talking about an all male group, btw?) have anything to do with aikido. Squaddies, rugby players, that kind of male bonding malarky goes on all over the place, which is all well and good.

Well I was talking about Shodokan Honbu which definately has good representation from both sexes. One of the things you would notice if you spent anytime there is that there is a mutual agreement as to what happens to you. There are men and women who don't want to go to the level of budo training that other men and women do and make no mistake the training is budo in its truest sense. There is a certain amount of toughening up that goes on but only to those who want to go there. That said the shaved head was definately a guy thing and the weeping friction burns were a result of me pushing myself and getting pushed to bring my ukemi up to the level I wanted it and where I thought Nariyama wanted it.

There is definitely a place for that kind of ritual, you go out into the jungle a boy, kill an otter with nothing but a plastic spoon, plait a cd rack out of your eyebrows and return... a MAN!! :p

Brilliant imagery.

I'll be testing for shodan again (Shodokan this time) in a month or two, and this time I dont intend to make the same mistake. If I'm successful, it means the end of a few short years as a kyu grade, which against the backdrop of a whole lifetime of training is pretty small beer. I know that when I put that black-belt on for the first time, I'll be exactly the same guy who was wearing a brown-belt the week before. (Thank goodness I dont have to cope with falling over an unfamiliar hakama, the way new shodans in other styles often do!)

'Beginning step' indeed. :)

Well yes Sean it is and you are - but it still is a milestone in the context of your training until that time. At Shodokan Honbu for instance Dan grade has other meaning beyond a passing of a technique requirement. Ask Scott to translate the kanji on his belt and what the kun represents. Good luck by the way and let us know how it went.

PeterR
11-08-2001, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Young-In Park

If your sensei, especially a shihan, demonstrates twisting the wrist even after your partner taps out, that is what you're supposed to do.

Anything less should be considered disrespectful to the sensei, bad form and/or arrogance.

Hopefully you're a higher rank than your partner so you can go first...

YoungIn Park
Don't worry we got the sarcasm. Of course if you don't like the training leave - not everything is for everybody. Since it was my quote you mis-apply I can only add that if you look to the original thread the above option was there too. I was talking about deliberately going off on a tangent - sensei be dammed. If you think you know better than the teacher and don't like what is being taught - why train there.

There are dojos out there where pushing the limits in this way is quite common and expected of sempai to kohei. Being a bit of a wuss not to mention valuing my joints I choose not to train in this way. I've taken it - and did not go back although to be fair the opprotunity did not arise (at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it). Picture a very small dojo in the middle of nowhere near Tsuchira, Ibaraki overseen by an old man with wrists as thick as tree trunks and students that looked like they just walked off of a building lot. Most painful training I have ever done - this was Aikikai, apparently the old guy trained under the other old guy.

And just to be clear I am not making a statement as how something should be just pointing out what there is. There are appoaches to out little thing called Budo very different from what we personally practice. It is a mistake to view them entirely from our perspective since the goals are often so different.

[Censored]
11-08-2001, 04:11 PM
My tolerance of pain and wasted practice time is rather low. Actually, I reached my limit a long time ago. I've had enough.

I practice to stop hurt or give hurt. Get hurt? It is already too easy, there is no need for practice. :)

ze'ev erlich
11-08-2001, 04:12 PM
Hi, I am sure he didn't want to damage your wrist. He may did want to hurt you a bit more than usual, but I don't think it is possible he had any intention to break something.
The only thing one can do is to remember that Nikkyo and Sankyo can be really dangerous. You must let your sensei know of any pain or problem you have. I am sure he will be careful.

PeterR
11-08-2001, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by [Censored]
My tolerance of pain and wasted practice time is rather low.
Too much time on my hands this afternnon - sorry people. I must say that my pain tolerance is much higher now than when I first started.

Young-In Park
11-08-2001, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by PeterR

I must say that my pain tolerance is much higher now than when I first started.


I, unlike the durable Peter, am a delicate flower. I don't understand why people keep trying to violently rip my petals off...

YoungIn

Erik
11-08-2001, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Young-In Park

I, unlike the durable Peter, am a delicate flower. I don't understand why people keep trying to violently rip my petals off...

YoungIn

Loves me!
Loves me not!

PeterR
11-08-2001, 05:57 PM
:rolleyes: Good one Eric
Originally posted by Young-In Park


I, unlike the durable Peter, am a delicate flower. I don't understand why people keep trying to violently rip my petals off...

YoungIn
Don't worry I too am but a delicate flower of nature.

Firm believer in the tap and back off rule and am proud of the fact that there are very few injuries where I practice.

Like our friend Chuck Clarke always points out - you don't need pain to make a technique work.

guest1234
11-08-2001, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by ze'ev erlich
Hi, I am sure he didn't want to damage your wrist. He may did want to hurt you a bit more than usual, but I don't think it is possible he had any intention to break something.
The only thing one can do is to remember that Nikkyo and Sankyo can be really dangerous. You must let your sensei know of any pain or problem you have. I am sure he will be careful.

I would disagree...it seems there are two types of folks getting injured in this thread:

1. Those who value a macho image more than the ability to train without injury, and so refuse to tap when their joints are being damaged
:eek:

2. Those who tap, and yet the technique continues and they get damaged, despite the fact that I would assume as a shodan they have at least adequate ukemi.

I would say that a sensei or shihan can feel a joint that is about to be damaged, and knows what a tap means. So a sensei or shihan who damages his dan level uke, especially in a pin, either was unable to feel the damage he was inflicting:confused: ,
or he meant to do it:confused: :confused:
perhaps he just had an off day, but then I would expect an appology and certainly not a repeat performance.

and Young-In Park, I got the joke...laughed out loud :D
especially since I'm usually uke first.

deepsoup
11-08-2001, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by PeterR

I saw it the same way as what you described happened to you - it wasn't a brutal crank just slow and steady.
Welll... we're not just talking about a little pain here, he actually did long-term damage to the joint, so even though it was slow and steady I cant help thinking it was brutal too. I'd prefer to think that the damage done was down to misjudgement rather than malice, but while inficting pain is open to interpretation, inflicting damage is always out of line in my opinion.

Personally, if someone inflicts a little pain on me, thats fine. Whether its part of some rite of passage, a form of misogi, or just slightly over-enthusiastic kime, that isn't a problem. (I mean a little pain never hurt anyone, right? :))

But damage is another matter. I'm self-employed and I work with my hands. After the training is done, I need all four limbs in good working order or I'm not going to be able to pay the rent.


Well I was talking about Shodokan Honbu which definately has good representation from both sexes. One of the things you would notice if you spent anytime there is that there is a mutual agreement as to what happens to you. There are men and women who don't want to go to the level of budo training that other men and women do and make no mistake the training is budo in its truest sense. There is a certain amount of toughening up that goes on but only to those who want to go there. That said the shaved head was definately a guy thing and the weeping friction burns were a result of me pushing myself and getting pushed to bring my ukemi up to the level I wanted it and where I thought Nariyama wanted it.
Well the 'all lads together' thing was really just a cheap shot, but its the head-shaving thing I meant really.

A few mat burns, bumps and bruises or whatever, are of course just a part of training hard. And both sexes are pretty well represented in the UK too, as far as that's concerned. (I hear honbu dojo recently got some brand new mats, and pretty much everyone has terrible friction burns at the moment anyway.)

The way things are at the moment, I dont think I'll ever be in a position to spend the kind of time at honbu dojo that you have. But I certainly do hope to at least make a short visit (weeks rather than months probably) some time in the next year or two. Since my time there will be pretty limited, I'll probably be looking to train pretty intensely to make the most of it.

If things work out for you in Himeji (any word yet, by the way?), hopefully, I'll see you there!


Well yes Sean it is and you are - but it still is a milestone in the context of your training until that time. At Shodokan Honbu for instance Dan grade has other meaning beyond a passing of a technique requirement. Ask Scott to translate the kanji on his belt and what the kun represents. Good luck by the way and let us know how it went.

I didn't get a chance to ask Scott about that tonight, as we usually save that kind of discussion for the pub after training, and he had to rush off tonight. I'll have to get back to you on that one. :)

Of course I do see my shodan as a milestone. Its just that I really set myself up for a fall with my judo shodan, and I dont intend to repeat the mistake of thinking it means more than it does. If and when I do get there, dont worry, I'll definitely let you know. :)

Suru
11-08-2001, 07:44 PM
Maybe O'Sensei hurt your shihan back in the day as a rite of passage. If so, maybe that's why he thought it was the right thing to do. Maybe not.

Drew

p.s. Maybe we should develop (esp. men) rites of passage that do not involve pain. Maybe a new shodan could funnel two beers at once while shihan pours. Well, you know, just a thought.

Erik
11-08-2001, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Suru
p.s. Maybe we should develop (esp. men) rites of passage that do not involve pain. Maybe a new shodan could funnel two beers at once while shihan pours. Well, you know, just a thought.

Funnel? Beer bong? Same thing?

unsound000
11-09-2001, 03:31 AM
WTF is he doing? Let him know one way or another. Me sensei would would tie him in a knot.

Jon

unsound000
11-09-2001, 03:55 AM
What is budo? Budo is right action. The samurai takes care of his own soul, his own sword, and then helps those under him. You have a duty to care for yourself. If you are negligent then it will effect others.

guest1234
11-09-2001, 06:10 AM
In some ways I prefered the rites substituted for pain in the fighter squadrons I've been assigned to...perhaps because breaking something means being temporarily (or--:eek:--permanently) grounded, alcohol was generally found in abundance, pain/risk of damage not so much.

There was always the risk that too much of the former could still result in injury (especially when coupled with the fighter pilots' belief in invincibility), and I've left more than one Dining In or green/brown bean sweep to patch up a squadron member, but for the most part manhood involved copious amounts of beer.

It could be that the guys saved the really painful parts for when I wasn't around, but since they had no problem treating me as male the rest of the time, I think I saw it all...

guest1234
11-09-2001, 06:14 AM
Oops, make that "copious amounts of beer and Jerimiah Weed "...sorry, Quaker, how could I forget...

PeterR
11-09-2001, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by deepsoup

Welll... we're not just talking about a little pain here, he actually did long-term damage to the joint, so even though it was slow and steady I cant help thinking it was brutal too. I'd prefer to think that the damage done was down to misjudgement rather than malice, but while inficting pain is open to interpretation, inflicting damage is always out of line in my opinion.

Personally, if someone inflicts a little pain on me, thats fine. Whether its part of some rite of passage, a form of misogi, or just slightly over-enthusiastic kime, that isn't a problem. (I mean a little pain never hurt anyone, right? :))

But damage is another matter. I'm self-employed and I work with my hands. After the training is done, I need all four limbs in good working order or I'm not going to be able to pay the rent.

Point taken and agreed, I've had some nagging injuries that occured during training but not inflicted on purpose. Nariyama has done me a couple of times but the soreness disappeared after a couple of days if not by the next morning. If the discomfort had lasted as long as the first poster describes I might think differently although accidents do happen. On re-reading the original post it appears it is a repeat performance - I would have said something.

Well the 'all lads together' thing was really just a cheap shot, but its the head-shaving thing I meant really.

Michael McCavish, Alan Higgs and me a little drunker than I should have been. I had just been told everything was fine for my Shodan except my ukemi - I had less than a week to get it right. The shaved head was to show my dedication.

The way things are at the moment, I dont think I'll ever be in a position to spend the kind of time at honbu dojo that you have. But I certainly do hope to at least make a short visit (weeks rather than months probably) some time in the next year or two. Since my time there will be pretty limited, I'll probably be looking to train pretty intensely to make the most of it.

If things work out for you in Himeji (any word yet, by the way?), hopefully, I'll see you there!

Well it did work out (unless everything falls apart) and you will see me there. Himeji is a bit far from Osaka but I plan to train there at least one day on the weekend. There are multiple classes. I have been invited to train with a Koryu there but need to get Nariyama's permision and an introduction letter.

I didn't get a chance to ask Scott about that tonight, as we usually save that kind of discussion for the pub after training, and he had to rush off tonight. I'll have to get back to you on that one. :)

Well the kanji before the name means presented to and the kanji after the name means kun (affectionate title for little boys). Nariyama pays for the belt out of his own pocket. It is his present to you and means you have become his student. Before that you buy your own belt and you are the responsibility of others. Of course he teaches you but its sort of a line in the sand.

Of course I do see my shodan as a milestone. Its just that I really set myself up for a fall with my judo shodan, and I dont intend to repeat the mistake of thinking it means more than it does. If and when I do get there, dont worry, I'll definitely let you know. :)
I understood. So many make that mistake still.

lt-rentaroo
11-09-2001, 03:53 PM
Hello,

Colleen - Jeremiah Weed :eek: You may be trying a bit too hard to "fit in" :D

In the big missile world, we usually have the new troops report in to the missile combat crew by saluting the on site radar pole. We tell the new guy that the officer's in the capsule can see them through the camera mounted on the pole (no such camera exists). The less than star-bright troops will walk up to the pole and give the proper reporting statement. It's actually pretty funny. Have a good day!

guest1234
11-09-2001, 08:59 PM
Hi Louis, I never touched the Weed (I don't drink, hence the 7-Up for me, rather than OB, sanctioned by my tolerant squadron)...just patched up the end result of what seemed like a good idea to male minds under the influence:rolleyes:

Sounds like missle duty is not as serious as I had assumed:D

deepsoup
11-09-2001, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
Well it did work out (unless everything falls apart) and you will see me there. Himeji is a bit far from Osaka but I plan to train there at least one day on the weekend. There are multiple classes. I have been invited to train with a Koryu there but need to get Nariyama's permision and an introduction letter.

Top sausage! Congratulations and good luck. By 'Koryu', do you mean a traditional form of budo, something other than aikido? Will gaining Shihan's permission be a just a formality, or is it something he'll have to think about? (Please feel free to ignore these questions if I'm being too nosey, btw. :))


Well the kanji before the name means presented to and the kanji after the name means kun (affectionate title for little boys). Nariyama pays for the belt out of his own pocket. It is his present to you and means you have become his student. Before that you buy your own belt and you are the responsibility of others. Of course he teaches you but its sort of a line in the sand.

Ah, I see. (Although you'll have to excuse me for a moment, while I try to grasp the idea of applying an affectionate title for little boys to Mr McCavish. ;))

Sean
x

PeterR
11-10-2001, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by deepsoup
Will gaining Shihan's permission be a just a formality, or is it something he'll have to think about?
Its a Japanese thing. Even in Japan I could go and just do it but in talking with the Koryu (old stream, schools established before the Meiji restroation) guy one of the first questions he asked was there a problem with my Budo. I told him the only problem was distance, that I would continue to train once a week at Shodokan Honbu, was very happy with the training there and that these were my friends. In fact what I was doing was exploring the options and would ask Nariyama for his advice. He agreed that this was a good idea and I should get Nariyama's permision and a letter of introduction.

Is it a formality?

I have been told by Nariyama not to train in certain places but I believe a lot of that had to do with the quality of instruction. I was introduced to Shodokan Honbu through connections - the most important being a Judo friend of Nariyama - I'm told it is important but I did not see a difference. He may say no - its a real possiblity - he may suggest an alternative or he may say nothing at all.

I see Budo training as more than just a collection of techniques and in this regard have put myself entirely in Nariyama's hands. He takes Budo very seriously and I can assume that if he does say no there are valid reasons for it. A high ranking Judo guy in Nariyama's presence said I should do Judo but I am more interested in weapons for the moment. anyway - its all discussion and not reality for the moment.

lt-rentaroo
11-10-2001, 01:15 PM
Hello,

Colleen - Glad to hear you are making use of common sense.

Missile duty isn't too laid back, but what else can you do when you're working in the middle of a field surrounded by miles of flat, barren prairie?

Happy Training!

deepsoup
11-10-2001, 05:11 PM
Hi Peter,

Thanks for your very thorough answer. This forum can be pretty educational at times, cant it? :)

Regards
Sean.