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View Full Version : Lines of power

Aran Bright

05-17-2007, 04:16 AM

I have searched for anything on the shapes of aikido and the lines and angles that ueshiba sensei lectured on. I have found nothing, surely this has been hammered out some where before, any suggestions?

Also, it occured to me that the basic shapes of aikido don't exist in two dimension but are more likely three dimension, eg the dynamic sphere, does anyone have any ideas on the 'irresistable cube' for example?

Also, it occured to me that the basic shapes of aikido don't exist in two dimension but are more likely three dimension, eg the dynamic sphere, does anyone have any ideas on the 'irresistable cube' for example?

George S. Ledyard

05-17-2007, 08:02 AM

I have searched for anything on the shapes of aikido and the lines and angles that ueshiba sensei lectured on. I have found nothing, surely this has been hammered out some where before, any suggestions?

Also, it occured to me that the basic shapes of aikido don't exist in two dimension but are more likely three dimension, eg the dynamic sphere, does anyone have any ideas on the 'irresistable cube' for example?

Actually, O-Sensei talked very little about technical issues like this. He did talk about the triangle, circle, square but more in terms of the energetic significance. Saotome Sensei says that in fifteen years of training with the Founder, he can remember three times when O-Sensei talked about how to do technique.

Also, it occured to me that the basic shapes of aikido don't exist in two dimension but are more likely three dimension, eg the dynamic sphere, does anyone have any ideas on the 'irresistable cube' for example?

Actually, O-Sensei talked very little about technical issues like this. He did talk about the triangle, circle, square but more in terms of the energetic significance. Saotome Sensei says that in fifteen years of training with the Founder, he can remember three times when O-Sensei talked about how to do technique.

graham

05-18-2007, 04:57 PM

Terry Dobson wrote that even though O Sensei spoke of the triangle, circle and square, it was difficult to get a clear explanation of what he meant.

Aran Bright

05-19-2007, 03:14 AM

Do you know that diaghram that is basically a circle inside a square that has the four lines cutting across it?

Does that mean anything to you?

I have heard teachers talk about cutting along the diagonals, does this ring a bell?

Does that mean anything to you?

I have heard teachers talk about cutting along the diagonals, does this ring a bell?

Walker

05-21-2007, 11:01 AM

I'll share a model using the :triangle: :circle: :square: that has come down to my dojo as a model of the training progression.

:triangle: The first stage which is concerned with acting as a wedge that is strong, stable and piercing with its sharp point.

:circle: The next in which action becomes more plastic and dynamic while still containing the triangle.

:square: The last in which the entire space is filled and one has already mastered and controlled each situation; again containing both the circle and triangle within it.

Take it for what it's worth.

:triangle: The first stage which is concerned with acting as a wedge that is strong, stable and piercing with its sharp point.

:circle: The next in which action becomes more plastic and dynamic while still containing the triangle.

:square: The last in which the entire space is filled and one has already mastered and controlled each situation; again containing both the circle and triangle within it.

Take it for what it's worth.

jennifer paige smith

05-24-2007, 10:03 AM

Do you know that diaghram that is basically a circle inside a square that has the four lines cutting across it?

Does that mean anything to you?

I have heard teachers talk about cutting along the diagonals, does this ring a bell?

These symbols together are found in the American Indian medicine wheel and Spirit Catchers. Follow the lines precisely, the very simple diagrams that you have seen photograghed with O'Sensei lecturing near the chalkboard, find them and work 45degree angles:triangle: for a while. Then consider how they are related to a natural concept of 'the whole:circle: ', using nature, like a flowing stream, as your guide. Listen, you can hear it:square:. Quiet your spirit through sword cuts and then allow natural inspiration to flow in.

Does that mean anything to you?

I have heard teachers talk about cutting along the diagonals, does this ring a bell?

These symbols together are found in the American Indian medicine wheel and Spirit Catchers. Follow the lines precisely, the very simple diagrams that you have seen photograghed with O'Sensei lecturing near the chalkboard, find them and work 45degree angles:triangle: for a while. Then consider how they are related to a natural concept of 'the whole:circle: ', using nature, like a flowing stream, as your guide. Listen, you can hear it:square:. Quiet your spirit through sword cuts and then allow natural inspiration to flow in.

mathewjgano

05-24-2007, 02:03 PM

I have heard teachers talk about cutting along the diagonals, does this ring a bell?

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but there's a good Shinto cosmology at the Tsubaki America web site regarding :triangle: :circle: :square: , if you're interested.

Also, to me it sounds like maybe you're describing the shikaku (dead angles). For example in the forearm, relatively speaking the ulna and the radius can be thought of as constituting a "vertical" axis; perpendicular to that axis would be the "horizontal" and bisecting those axes are the shikaku...as I think I understand it anyway. Theoretically, your structure should be strong to the sides even when you're facing forward. The example I'm most familiar with is a static stance where you have someone push from the front, back and sides (shoulders/upper arm), then they push on the shikaku and the posture begins to twist.

Then again you might be refering to the idea that it's harder to side-step a diagonal cut than a vertical one?

At any rate, one thing that sparked my initial interest to Aikido was the beautiful geometry. Reading Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere did a lot to give me some of my initial appreciation for Aikido.

Take care,

Matthew

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but there's a good Shinto cosmology at the Tsubaki America web site regarding :triangle: :circle: :square: , if you're interested.

Also, to me it sounds like maybe you're describing the shikaku (dead angles). For example in the forearm, relatively speaking the ulna and the radius can be thought of as constituting a "vertical" axis; perpendicular to that axis would be the "horizontal" and bisecting those axes are the shikaku...as I think I understand it anyway. Theoretically, your structure should be strong to the sides even when you're facing forward. The example I'm most familiar with is a static stance where you have someone push from the front, back and sides (shoulders/upper arm), then they push on the shikaku and the posture begins to twist.

Then again you might be refering to the idea that it's harder to side-step a diagonal cut than a vertical one?

At any rate, one thing that sparked my initial interest to Aikido was the beautiful geometry. Reading Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere did a lot to give me some of my initial appreciation for Aikido.

Take care,

Matthew

Aran Bright

05-25-2007, 07:10 AM

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but there's a good Shinto cosmology at the Tsubaki America web site regarding :triangle: :circle: :square: , if you're interested.

Also, to me it sounds like maybe you're describing the shikaku (dead angles). For example in the forearm, relatively speaking the ulna and the radius can be thought of as constituting a "vertical" axis; perpendicular to that axis would be the "horizontal" and bisecting those axes are the shikaku...as I think I understand it anyway. Theoretically, your structure should be strong to the sides even when you're facing forward. The example I'm most familiar with is a static stance where you have someone push from the front, back and sides (shoulders/upper arm), then they push on the shikaku and the posture begins to twist.

Then again you might be refering to the idea that it's harder to side-step a diagonal cut than a vertical one?

At any rate, one thing that sparked my initial interest to Aikido was the beautiful geometry. Reading Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere did a lot to give me some of my initial appreciation for Aikido.

Take care,

Matthew

That's exactly what I am getting at, Shikaku. Are you able to tell me more?

Also, to me it sounds like maybe you're describing the shikaku (dead angles). For example in the forearm, relatively speaking the ulna and the radius can be thought of as constituting a "vertical" axis; perpendicular to that axis would be the "horizontal" and bisecting those axes are the shikaku...as I think I understand it anyway. Theoretically, your structure should be strong to the sides even when you're facing forward. The example I'm most familiar with is a static stance where you have someone push from the front, back and sides (shoulders/upper arm), then they push on the shikaku and the posture begins to twist.

Then again you might be refering to the idea that it's harder to side-step a diagonal cut than a vertical one?

At any rate, one thing that sparked my initial interest to Aikido was the beautiful geometry. Reading Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere did a lot to give me some of my initial appreciation for Aikido.

Take care,

Matthew

That's exactly what I am getting at, Shikaku. Are you able to tell me more?

Adam Alexander

05-26-2007, 03:22 AM

Triangle=The lower points represent uke and sh'te's points of contact with ground while in midst of attack/defense? The upper point represents their connection upon contact?

Circle=Uke and sh'te create a circle with the technique?

Square=Upon completion of the technique, uke and sh'te return to where they should be naturally? Each with their stability of two points represented by their corners?

Maybe.

Circle=Uke and sh'te create a circle with the technique?

Square=Upon completion of the technique, uke and sh'te return to where they should be naturally? Each with their stability of two points represented by their corners?

Maybe.

Walker

05-29-2007, 12:40 PM

Triangle=The lower points represent uke and sh'te's points of contact with ground while in midst of attack/defense? The upper point represents their connection upon contact?

Circle=Uke and sh'te create a circle with the technique?

Square=Upon completion of the technique, uke and sh'te return to where they should be naturally? Each with their stability of two points represented by their corners?

Maybe.

From my own perspective I would caution against such ideas. If you analyze the way you have structured the interaction both uke and shite are equally balanced in each geometric figure. You even posit an ending in "square" where each has the "stability of two points." In other words an aikidoka has gone though an interaction and nothing has changed. What is the point of that?

You posit a triangle in which two persons have formed a stable arch-like structure. At such a point neither has any advantage and most likely a stalemate will result. Same with your idea about the circle.

I would recommend structuring your thinking into models in which you are the dominant component.

Circle=Uke and sh'te create a circle with the technique?

Square=Upon completion of the technique, uke and sh'te return to where they should be naturally? Each with their stability of two points represented by their corners?

Maybe.

From my own perspective I would caution against such ideas. If you analyze the way you have structured the interaction both uke and shite are equally balanced in each geometric figure. You even posit an ending in "square" where each has the "stability of two points." In other words an aikidoka has gone though an interaction and nothing has changed. What is the point of that?

You posit a triangle in which two persons have formed a stable arch-like structure. At such a point neither has any advantage and most likely a stalemate will result. Same with your idea about the circle.

I would recommend structuring your thinking into models in which you are the dominant component.

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