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Ecosamurai
05-11-2007, 04:02 AM
Hope I've spelt that right.

Was looking here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/weapons/31jo1.html

And found the partnered version of the 31 jo (meaning descriptions of what your opponent(s) do while you do the kata. I've heard this called bunkai in iaido so I'm not totally sure of the appropriate term.

Has anyone got the same for Saito's 13 jo kata?

How about any other aiki-jo kata such as Tohei's 22 etc? I know there are lots of aikijo kata around and that Saito's are the most well known but I've found that often they are taught without the actions of the opponent being talked about (much). I know from my non-aikido weapons training that the actions of your opponent -either real or imagined - are very important.

Any one with any more info on this?

Mike

grondahl
05-11-2007, 04:38 AM
There is a difference between awase-forms and kumi-forms. The partnered version of the 31 Kata is usally called 31 Kumijo.
There is according to most senior Iwama-style teachers that I have trained for no kumi-form for the 13 kata, there is hovewer an awase-form.

In the awase form, the 13 kata is more or less done as normal and the "uke" moves around so that all the techniques in the kata are defenses against tsuki.

Ecosamurai
05-11-2007, 05:49 AM
There is a difference between awase-forms and kumi-forms. The partnered version of the 31 Kata is usally called 31 Kumijo.
There is according to most senior Iwama-style teachers that I have trained for no kumi-form for the 13 kata, there is hovewer an awase-form.

In the awase form, the 13 kata is more or less done as normal and the "uke" moves around so that all the techniques in the kata are defenses against tsuki.

Cool, so you you might say that 31 kumi-jo is a collection of movements that fit the 31 jo kata. But the awase-jo is just a partner tsuki-ing whenever possible.

I assume there are kumi-jo for the 20 jo suburi too?

Mike

Demetrio Cereijo
05-11-2007, 06:05 AM
I assume there are kumi-jo for the 20 jo suburi too?

I've never seen it.

grondahl
05-11-2007, 06:25 AM
Cool, so you you might say that 31 kumi-jo is a collection of movements that fit the 31 jo kata. But the awase-jo is just a partner tsuki-ing whenever possible.

Not really whenever possible, but tsuki-ing so that every movement in the 13 kata gets a purpose and an opportunity for partnerpractice.


I assume there are kumi-jo for the 20 jo suburi too?


Not really. There are 10 kumijo forms that contains more or less all of the movements in the kumijo. I think that the suburi were taken from the 31-kata and others (the 13 is for instance just a part of a longer kata) that M.Saito sensei learnt from O sensei.
Then it appears that M.Saito created the 7 kumijo as a way to practice the jo movements. Since they were under development during a long time there are several versions of at least the first seven. Then M.Saito created the last 3 for the demo after he got his 9 dan if I remember it correctly.

There is however a plethora of shorter jo-awase exercises as well.

Ecosamurai
05-11-2007, 09:22 AM
Cool, anyone got any info on the other aikijo kata. Tohei's 22 for example? (I've never seen anything for the 22 but it could be out there).

Mike

CitoMaramba
05-11-2007, 12:51 PM
I found these clips on the web. They show Hiroaki Kobayahsi Sensei performing the 13, 22 and 31 jo kata, first solo then with a partner (awase / kumijo).
Interestingly, the paired 13 practice has both uchijo and ukejo performing the same kata, with uchijo just one step ahead.
The other paired practices have uchijo performing different movements while ukejo performs the kata.
13 jo kata clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB5oW4aXpsY)
31 Jo kata clip (http://www.aikido-development-society.org/Kata/31JoKata/Jo%2031%20Hiroaki.wmv)
22 jo kata clip (http://www.aikido-development-society.org/Kata/22JoKata/Jo%2022%20Hiroaki.wmv)

Enjoy!

Cito

Ecosamurai
05-12-2007, 05:41 AM
13 jo kata clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB5oW4aXpsY)
31 Jo kata clip (http://www.aikido-development-society.org/Kata/31JoKata/Jo%2031%20Hiroaki.wmv)
22 jo kata clip (http://www.aikido-development-society.org/Kata/22JoKata/Jo%2022%20Hiroaki.wmv)

Very interesting Cito thanks :) Not quite the same partnered versions I've seen but really interesting nonetheless.

Mike

Edward
05-12-2007, 12:47 PM
I have the CD of Saito sensei doing the awase, but it is interesting to note that the attacks of Uke are not continuous throughout the entire Kata. Saito sensei divides the Kata in several segments which do not seem to be related.

grondahl
05-12-2007, 04:04 PM
Hiroakis solo 13 count kata also differs from the version that Im familiar with. He does 2 movements in movement nr 2 (first sliding back to block and then stepping forward for a strike, almost like "tsuki jodan gaeshi" ) instead of just one (entering and striking directly), almost making it a 14 count kata.

The version Im familiar with looks alot more like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S4GFXambZk&mode=related&search=

CitoMaramba
05-13-2007, 03:12 PM
Another clip of sanjuichi no kata (31 kata) (http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~takemusu/movies/movie001_4.wmv), this time demonstrated by Kouich Tanaka Sensei. Tanaka Sensei is a student of Shoji Nishio Shihan.