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Mike Haftel
05-02-2007, 01:34 PM
If you can't see the pictures let me know.

Sometimes, people find it difficult to apply Sankyo on me. It really wont work, as a lock, unless it is applied just right. Yes, if you torque my arm as though you were doing Sankyo, it would hurt. But, it wont take my center or lock my wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc....

So, after thinking about it for a long time and working with some people, I figured out an alternative method for applying this lock. I have tried it on pretty much everybody I've trained with, and it seems to be quite effective and it can be very painful as well (but, doesn't have to be).

It feels like a mix of Sankyo, Nikyo, and Kote Hineri.

There is also specific, variable footwork involved as well as specific motions for Nage's arm. However I wont touch upon those unless I get enough interest in this first part.

Every motion is LARGE, specific, and in short stages/sections in order to understand the physiokinetics of the lock. At more advanced levels it all blends together into one SMALL, fluid motion. So, keep this in mind.

Really, there are only three axis being utilized (maybe four, if you take Uke's centerline into account...and maybe five if you take Nage's into account).

YELLOW: Axis of rotation about a single point (a physical movement in space around a center).
RED: A vector describing a direction of pressure (NOT A PHYSICAL MOVEMENT).

I used my girlfriend (Thanks babe!) as a model, I didn't actually apply the lock on her. If I had a few martial artists around, I would have used them so you could actually see the lock applied using an Uke and Nage. But, for now, this will do.

Note: I am not responsible for anybody hurting themselves or others using this informaiton. It is for educational purposes only.

The lock works via the principles of sequential locking and indirect/secondary pressure. There are many others at work as well, but I wont toch upon those just yet.

Figure 1:
http://photos-623.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v75/136/70/12201202/n12201202_30706623_5270.jpg

This is why I say it is similar to Nikyo. The axis of rotation is the same, only the wrist is bent the opposite direction. Note that the alignment of the forearm and upper arm is the same as Nikyo as well. This first step will bend Uke's knees and, depending on how you apply pressure, will either bend Uke forward or backward. It is important that you do not move Uke's arm in space...only AROUND a given axis, shown as the yellow dotted line.

Figure 2:
http://photos-624.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v75/136/70/12201202/n12201202_30706624_5529.jpg

I forgot to mention this: Note that Uke's hand is directly over her centerline at all times. It is not out to the side.

Make sure to keep pressure constant and to keep applying it as in figure 1. This is shown by the red vectors. But, do not physically move Uke in space. Pressure is now added to Uke's palm/fingers in the direction of her shoulder. Again, do not physically move her.

An axis is made by connecting the base of Uke's wrist and her shoulder. Using pressure in your hand by grabbing via the pad of your palm and first joint of your fingers, Rotate Uke's elbow around this axis. This will arc her elbow up and toward her opposite shoulder. This will also turn her body away from you slightly and hunch her back slightly. It will also prevent her from extending her other arm to strike. This is called cross-extension parallysis.

Also, the grip Nage uses is similar to one a hockey or lacross player uses to hold the stick. I call it the talky-hands. Make a hand puppet...it's like that.

Uke's hand will come off of centerline slightly, but it should be pinned to your own chest, on your centerline at this point.

I know it's confusing without pictures of it actually applied. Sorry.

Figure 3:
http://photos-625.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v75/136/70/12201202/n12201202_30706625_5791.jpg

The previous pressure is not released, nor is it intensified.

All you have to do, really, is rotate around your own centerline (axis drawn from the top of your head down to your feet). Usually I will do this by rotating in the diretction of Uke's armpit. No force is neccessary. Just turn your body with Uke's hand pinned to your own chest and the rest of the lock will take care of itself.

Sometimes, I will strike the floating ribbs or some other target while simultaneously doing this.

I do not apply any upward pressure or corkscrewing motions. This only moves Uke's arm up and down and does nothing to her.

This will also apply pressure to uke's shoulder. So, be careful. Now, directing pressure, as in the first two figures, will also direct Uke. It is easy to get her up on her tippy-toes (as in Aikiage) or throw her to the ground (as in Aikisage) However, it isn't really Aiki, in the traditional sense.

Although, it wouldn't take very much to apply it in such a way, as in Daito-Ryu.

At advanced levels, you can use your center and your hips to initiate the movents. At beginning levels I use indirect (or secondary) pressure from my elbow/shoulder to create the pressure. I do not use torquing movents or twisting motions to do so. This is a common mistake.

Sorry if this was confusing or too wordy.

Any thoughts? I am by no means a master or qualified to teach, so do what you will.

Mike Haftel
05-02-2007, 01:48 PM
Another interesting thing about this method, is that Uke can not move her body or rotate around you to release the tension and pressure from the lock. She is pretty much locked in place until you direct her somewhere using your hips.

I should mention that Nage's arms don't really do anything once this sequence has begun, everything is done using Nage's entire body.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-02-2007, 01:50 PM
I'm having a little trouble distinguishing this from a regular sankyo.

gdandscompserv
05-02-2007, 01:52 PM
I'm having a little trouble distinguishing this from a regular sankyo.
me too.

Mike Haftel
05-02-2007, 01:56 PM
I'm having a little trouble distinguishing this from a regular sankyo.

Maybe it's just the people who I've trained with.

Most people just put the arm in the inverted position and twist while applying upward pressure. This usually results in localized pain in the wrist and forearm. But, this does nothing to control Uke's entire body. It's just painful. If someone is resistant to pain, it wont work.

Taking control of the bones, themselves, in the forearm and shoulder...as well as controlling Uke's center is different. And this way of doing this is much different from the Sankyo I've experienced.

miratim
05-02-2007, 02:06 PM
It's the people you train with.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-02-2007, 02:06 PM
Congratulations, then. You may have just rediscovered sankyo. ;)

Mike Haftel
05-02-2007, 02:15 PM
Congratulations, then. You may have just rediscovered sankyo. ;)

I guess so.

Let me ask you a question. When Sankyo is applied to you, where do you feel tension, pressure, and pain?

Usually I only feel it in my wrist and part of my forearm. And it is only pain. I usually just stand there while Nage torques away with a puzzled look and saying, "why isn't this working?"

And I always think, "because all you are doing it twisting my wrist and forearm!"

The only few times when Sankyo was applied to me and it worked, I didn't feel anything at all and it was more of a throw than a lock. And that was done by a 6th dan in Daito-Ryu. My sensei in another art can do it, but he does it even differently and it is very painful but still localized.

Maybe it's just me?

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-02-2007, 02:22 PM
Sankyo-nage is a good exercise for learning to apply sankyo into the shoulder. Like just about every lock in aikido, it affects the entire arm.

Alternately, a sankyo takedown. I've noticed some variance between schools; I'm talking about the textbook Yoshinkan-style takedown to pin. The pin itself also clearly shows the mechanism that applies pressure into the shoulder.

I agree, though. Sometimes people start tip-toeing and turning long before they have to. It creates an artificial disconnect. Anyway, I'd recommend working the (classical) pin and the throw to better understand this.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-02-2007, 02:27 PM
Put another way -- I think that you should be able to apply sankyo just by gripping the forearm, not the wrist or hand. Not WELL, but it should be possible to get some of the effect. Pain? Probably not. But it's probably a somewhat efficient way to forcibly rotate an arm.

Mike Haftel
05-02-2007, 02:44 PM
Put another way -- I think that you should be able to apply sankyo just by gripping the forearm, not the wrist or hand. Not WELL, but it should be possible to get some of the effect. Pain? Probably not. But it's probably a somewhat efficient way to forcibly rotate an arm.

That's what I was trying to imply.

When I do Sankyo this way, most people describe it as feeling it all the way up the forearm, into the elbow, the upper arm, into the shoulder, and into the side of their neck. And, I do it without twisting the wrist, at least not that much.

I know the pin you are talking about, and it's very similar to that.

There's a similar throw as well...where you hold Uke's hand like in Figure 1 and make small circles toward their center which throws them to the rear. Is that the throw you mentioned?

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-02-2007, 03:05 PM
There's a similar throw as well...where you hold Uke's hand like in Figure 1 and make small circles toward their center which throws them to the rear. Is that the throw you mentioned?

I don't believe so. (Man, this would be so much easier in person.) I'm talking about the one where you use outward/forward sankyo pressure to bring uke down, then rising/thrusting pressure as they stand up to bring them to tiptoes, then another outward/forward to throw.

senshincenter
05-02-2007, 03:17 PM
First, I'd like to say thank you for that time and effort with the pictures and the vector layout - very cool. Secondly, can I ask: Any chance of getting some video of both versions? That might go a long ways to having folks see some of the differences you are trying to point out.

dmv

Mike Haftel
05-02-2007, 04:01 PM
I don't believe so. (Man, this would be so much easier in person.) I'm talking about the one where you use outward/forward sankyo pressure to bring uke down, then rising/thrusting pressure as they stand up to bring them to tiptoes, then another outward/forward to throw.

Ah, yes. I know that one. It's like casting a fishing line.

Mike Haftel
05-02-2007, 04:02 PM
First, I'd like to say thank you for that time and effort with the pictures and the vector layout - very cool. Secondly, can I ask: Any chance of getting some video of both versions? That might go a long ways to having folks see some of the differences you are trying to point out.

dmv

Hmmm...it's a possibility. I'd have to see if I can get my hands on a camera.

Mike Haftel
05-02-2007, 04:11 PM
I'd say the main differences are how the basic principles of the lock are applied. Uke's arm never really moves off of centerline (because of sequential locking), Uke's wrist is never really torqued (because of secondary/indirect pressure), Uke's body doesn't move around Nage(centriptal motion, not centrifugal), Uke can't rotate to release the tension (because of equal weighting), Uke can't strike or kick (because of cross-extension paralysis), and there are no wasted movements or big circles. Plus, Uke's entire body is locked up, not just the arm.

I'm sure it's nothing new. But, it differs in the approach when compared to how many of the Aikido schools I've been to teach and practice it.

Ecosamurai
05-03-2007, 09:39 AM
I'm having a little trouble distinguishing this from a regular sankyo.

Yeah, how is it different?

Mike Haft

PS - Are we related? Was there a typo on my birth certificate or something?

Mike Haftel
05-03-2007, 12:00 PM
Ok, I think the subtle difference is that I'm applying Nikyo at the same time as Sankyo. HOWEVER, the my focul point is on the shoulder, the bones in the forearm, the neck, and Uke's center; rather than the tendons and ligaments in the wrist and forearm (which is how I've always seen it done).

Also there is some small footwork involved which doesn't use any type of Tenkan or circular steps. I also strike at the same time as I flick my hips toward Uke's center.

I really need to get my hands on a video camera.

miratim
05-03-2007, 01:05 PM
If the people you are working with aren't affecting/controlling uke's center in every technique, or at least trying to, then they aren't really doing the technique. Whether it's sankyo or a kokyunage. Focusing just on the wrist or forearm doesn't seem really acceptable.

Especially with sankyo - they should be trying to make it a structural control, not a point control.

So you have what sounds like a really good approach to me. But it shouldn't be novel to the people you are working with, it should be the basis for what they are doing with this technique.

graham
05-05-2007, 06:41 AM
Let me ask you a question. When Sankyo is applied to you, where do you feel tension, pressure, and pain?

Everywhere and nowhere!

When it works most effectively, it's not a case of it hurting so much that I have to move. It just makes me move (though, of course, it I don't it damn well hurts like hell!).

Maybe it's just a case of different styles?

graham
05-05-2007, 06:45 AM
Especially with sankyo - they should be trying to make it a structural control, not a point control.

Yes. That's exactly what I was trying to get at with my 'everywhere and nowhere.'

Mike Haftel
05-05-2007, 10:41 AM
Yes. That's exactly what I was trying to get at with my 'everywhere and nowhere.'

Yes, I know the point of joint locks is to inevitably control the attacker's center.

The term "joint lock" is a misnomer. It should be "body lock." The emphasis isn't the joint, it's the entire body.

I guess it's just the people I've trained with. No Aikidoka has actually ever applied a joint lock that really takes my center. It's all localized and focused at the joint.

The only times I've had people actually throw me or lock me up because I had no choice in the matter were in two other arts. I've just never encountered an Aikidoka who truly applied the principles which they had learnt in order to execute a throw or lock.

It just baffles me.

gdandscompserv
05-05-2007, 11:36 AM
The only times I've had people actually throw me or lock me up because I had no choice in the matter were in two other arts. I've just never encountered an Aikidoka who truly applied the principles which they had learnt in order to execute a throw or lock.

It just baffles me.
You really need to get out more.

Mike Haftel
05-05-2007, 02:14 PM
You really need to get out more.

Oh, I'm trying. I'm heading down to Florida in a few weeks and I'm going to stop by a number of Dojos along the way.

I'm planning on going to a few seminars with Roy Goldberg Sensei of Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Kodokai (who I've met a few times; I consider him to be highly skilled), Roy Suenaka Sensei, Daito Ryu Roppokai, maybe a seminar with Tony Annesi of Takeshin Budo, a few other styles of Aikido, etc.

It should be a good summer.

Michael Douglas
05-07-2007, 01:50 PM
Ok, I think the subtle difference is that I'm applying Nikyo at the same time as Sankyo.
No, you're applying sankyo only.
You are in no way applying nickyo. Twisting the hand/wrist towards uke while horizontal isn't really nickyo, here it's just part of sankyo.

The term "joint lock" is a misnomer. It should be "body lock." The emphasis isn't the joint, it's the entire body.
Actually the term 'body lock' is already taken. What you are doing is sankyo, no need to call it a joint lock if you don't want to.

I liked the pictures, but you really really need to post a series with your hands doing the job too.

Mike Haftel
05-07-2007, 04:53 PM
No, you're applying sankyo only.
You are in no way applying nickyo. Twisting the hand/wrist towards uke while horizontal isn't really nickyo, here it's just part of sankyo.

You really have to see and feel it in person. It's not like any sankyo I've personally seen or felt done by an Aikidoka. I am not "just twisting the hand/wrist towards uke while horizontal." The pictures make it look like that, but that's my own fault for not being able to put into writing what I am doing. Again, I don't claim to be doing anything new or innovative here. I'm just applying a few principles, as I've learned them, in a different way compared to how I've seen other Aikidoka use them.

Actually the term 'body lock' is already taken. What you are doing is sankyo, no need to call it a joint lock if you don't want to.

I wasn't really talking about this particular lock, specifically. I was more so making a generalization to all joint locks. My point was that most people I've worked with focus their intent on manipulating the joint or point of contact only. Rather than looking at the big picture and larger objective of manipulting all of Uke. Hence, the term "joint lock" is somewhat misleading because your intent (at least my intent) is not solely on the "joint."

I liked the pictures, but you really really need to post a series with your hands doing the job too.

Thank you for the comment on the pictures.

I need to find an Uke first. I'm actually not anywhere near a dojo at the moment and might not be for some time. That's why I had to use my girlfriend :)

Millerwc
05-31-2007, 11:07 AM
In seidokan we have several modified versions of sankyo that do not involve joint locks at all. Instead of torquing up, we simply turn and cut, and the result often feels more like ikkyo with a sankyo grip. I personally prefer it, especially as uke, as at no point in the technique does it feel like nage can rip your arm off, completely painless. The benefit to this is that uke cannot really feel you doing anything to him until it's too late for him to resist, as he's already on the ground.

Mato-san
06-30-2007, 11:11 AM
It is fun watching ppl try sankyo with words...and even pictures....but it does not make mat...
... my cheap words.... hold it like a baseball bat and send your uke into 90degrees arm lock....failing that use a daito grip...or better yet use that grip from the start...anyhow my words are cheap

miratim
07-11-2007, 12:36 AM
Mike -

Have you experimented any further with sankyo since your initial post. This thread was really interesting, and I always enjoy getting different perspectives on the basic techniques.

Jamie_Macc
07-13-2007, 06:31 AM
Hello everyone, i have a grading coming up in a few months and i cant get the hang of sankyo tenkan, i can do the lock fine and i can do irimi quite well.

If anyone could help me could you please let me know.

Many Thanks Jamie

Mike Haftel
07-13-2007, 07:29 AM
Mike -

Have you experimented any further with sankyo since your initial post. This thread was really interesting, and I always enjoy getting different perspectives on the basic techniques.

Yep.

I actually visited another dojo (a few, in fact) and nobody could seem to actually apply sankyo effectively on me. People either didn't get a lock at all, or the lock was concentrated on just the fingers and/or wrist.

I actually prefer to bypass the wrist completely and manipulate the bones in the forearm and upper arm instead.

And, when it came time for the actual take down, people tend to throw the lock/uke away from their own center and try to make a large arc in the air (like going fishing). While this may work on a compliant uke, all it does is cause nage to lose control over uke and puts uke back on his feet and grounds him even further.

What I do is keep uke rotating in sankyo and then drop his arm straight down to the ground and let his arm straighten out naturally right through my own center, where the not in your belt would be. But, because you are taking up that space, you rotate quickly about your own center-line and allow uke's arm to pass through the space you were just in. Uke will drop straight down to the ground over the same point his arm was pointing to the entire technique.

if Uke doesn't go down right away from this drop, you wind up in reverse Ikyo. If this happens, I carve on the spot just behind the elbow with the sharp edge of the bone in my forearm while lifting slightly on uke's wrist (like a see-saw). I don't push on the arm. I carve straight through it by sinking my elbow and punching either the ground below uke or at a line which goes through uke's arm to his chin. I don't bother bringing uke in a downward spiral and tenkan around. To me, it's a waste of energy and less ineffecient than just putting uke straight down.

I must say that this version is a much more painful and violent than the "nice" way most aikidoka do it. But, it doesn't rely on pain compliance, it works because uke has no choice in the matter. I doubt it is taught in most aikido dojo because it may not...fit with the philosphy of blending and such with uke.

I know it's hard to picture. But uke's wrist and arm stay over the same point on the ground the entire time. The lock/throw is centripital rather than centrifugal. And uke goes straight down to the triangulation point between his legs.

When I showed a nidan this at another dojo, they were very surprised.