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skinnymonkey
04-27-2007, 02:25 PM
We were inspired by our interview with Shihan Seiji Tanaka (8th dan, JAA/USA) and the recent PCS article by Toby Threadgill (Shindo Yoshin-ryu) about handling full speed attacks. Bob King and I (Jeff Davidson) decided to try out some "Aiki-Boxing". It's very difficult to time Aikido techniques off of a boxer, so we thought this would be a fun way to get some practice in.

Check out the video here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QreuuPm24UI

The first two rounds are body movement (tai sabaki) only, the "boxer" is only going about 50% speed (for a warm-up) then we kick it up a bit and get to about 75% speed. Thought it might be an interesting excercise... and it definitely was! We'll post some more as we kick up the intensity a bit.

We'd love to hear your comments! Hope you all enjoy it.

Check out our podcast at http://www.usaikido.com or visit our club page at http://www.mansfieldtomikiaikido.com

John Kelly
04-27-2007, 02:39 PM
Well, it looks like a fun excercise. Thanks for sharing the video.
jk

aikidoc
04-27-2007, 04:25 PM
Although it looked like a useful exercise, other than an occasional turning movement where was the aiki? Mostly dodging and ducking and a lot of times off balance. IMHO. Aiki with a boxer is definitely a challenge since the attacks are not as committed-jabs for example.

George S. Ledyard
04-27-2007, 05:38 PM
I like the sentiment but...
There is little or no "aiki" here. The ideal in Aikido is to have katsuhayabi or "instant victory". You need to own the space you both are in at the moment of entry... no, actually you need to own it before you enter. This largely has to do with the aspect of kimusubi. What you are doing here is entirely physical and is largely about evasion. A nominally better boxer would have his way with you because your mind is on escape.

Ushiro Sensei, the karate teacher who was introduced to the US at the Aiki Expos talks about the proper irimi leaving no room for the second attack. It is over on the entry. Because this is not happening, there is no kuzushi on the entry which leaves the opponent space and time for follow up strikes. It also leaves him with a solid structure. Consequently, the take downs you are able to execute are very physical and demand a lot of strength and tension.

The opponent should either not feel he is able to throw the second strike or he throws it but you are already inside it. Either way he shouldn't have a viable second strike if you understand "irimi".

As I said, I am sympathetic to the thought behind the exercise but it won't imprint the proper mental aspect to the practice. Remember, "offense and defense are one" is one of the fundamental tenets of not just Aikido but Japanese martial arts in general. In your exercises you are training the nage to think and react defensively. This can work against an incompetent or uncommitted attacker but it won't work against someone who knows what he is doing and is willing to go straight at you and keep going.

If I were the attacker and you reacted in such an evasive manner i would keep going straight at you and back you right in to the wall and then tool off on you. There cannot be even an instant in the martial interaction in which you are not capable of moving forward, even if you are zoning out (increasing distance). Your mind must be forward and your body orientation must allow instant forward movement all of the time.

Before you start freestyling, just tell the attacker to go at you with a full speed jab and cross combo. Practice entering such that no matter how he tries he never gets the cross off with any power or fast enough that you aren't already in. Once you can do this, then try some freestyle, it'll be totally different.

skinnymonkey
04-27-2007, 07:32 PM
Thanks for the input George. I am the one in the blue shirt and I've only been doing aikido for a little over a year. I agree that my technique and style need a LOT of work. I do feel that Bob managed to get several good aiki techniques at about 4:27, 4:40, 6:40 and a few other places. There were a few of those techniques that would have been match enders, had he taken it to it's logical conclusion with a lock, but we agreed before hand not to go that far. I (unfortunately), didn't manage to get much. As I said, the Toby Threadgill article on PCS got us motivated to try this out and it was a nice change of pace. I'll definitely suggest your idea about practicing our entry with the jab cross combo for a bit and then go back to freestyling. Seems like a very good suggestion.

I did enjoy the speed of the freestyling tho. It definitely makes you use a different part of your brain when there are gloves flying and you are on the move.

When we do some more... I'll post it (if anyone has any interest in seeing it)!

Thanks!

Jeff D.

darin
04-27-2007, 09:11 PM
I thought it was pretty good especially at the end. Have you tried it with kicks too? Anyway good training. Keep it up.

George S. Ledyard
04-28-2007, 12:44 AM
Thanks for the input George. I am the one in the blue shirt and I've only been doing aikido for a little over a year. I agree that my technique and style need a LOT of work. I do feel that Bob managed to get several good aiki techniques at about 4:27, 4:40, 6:40 and a few other places. There were a few of those techniques that would have been match enders, had he taken it to it's logical conclusion with a lock, but we agreed before hand not to go that far. I (unfortunately), didn't manage to get much. As I said, the Toby Threadgill article on PCS got us motivated to try this out and it was a nice change of pace. I'll definitely suggest your idea about practicing our entry with the jab cross combo for a bit and then go back to freestyling. Seems like a very good suggestion.

I did enjoy the speed of the freestyling tho. It definitely makes you use a different part of your brain when there are gloves flying and you are on the move.

When we do some more... I'll post it (if anyone has any interest in seeing it)!

Thanks!

Jeff D.

Another thing to do is allow the defender to strike as well. If one guys is designated as a defender and only tries to evade or snag a technique it changes the interaction. The attacker has to be worried about being struck as he closes, he has to change his energy substantially and look for an actual opening to attack. That is more realistic and allows you to start playing with the energy a bit.

xuzen
04-28-2007, 01:05 AM
OP's example is so-so. 5/10.

Here is an example of a good Aiki-Boxing or whatyourmacallit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhNKMqlSzcI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebullshido%2Enet%2Fforums%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D54004

Look at 1' 44" for a whoop-ass good kokyu-shomen-ate combo.

Boon.

skinnymonkey
04-28-2007, 07:47 AM
Thanks Darin. We have talked about introducing kicks. This was our first attempt at this and we thought we should see how it went before adding that. Probably will tho.

Thanks for the additional input George. We had planned on letting the "defender" strap on some MMA gloves to allow some strikes after a few more drills. As you said, that adds to the realism, but we thought we should try a few drills like this first and then add to it.

Xuzen... I've actually seen that video before! I noticed that same movement. Pretty interesting to see it in a real application.

Aiki-Boxing is a lot of fun to do and we'll definitely be giving it some more time in our workouts. I'll try to incorporate some of the suggestions here next time around. Let me know if you would like to see some more.

Thanks,

Jeff D.

darin
04-28-2007, 08:01 AM
OP's example is so-so. 5/10.

Here is an example of a good Aiki-Boxing or whatyourmacallit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhNKMqlSzcI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebullshido%2Enet%2Fforums%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D54004

Look at 1' 44" for a whoop-ass good kokyu-shomen-ate combo.

Boon.

The female news presenter at the end is pretty cute... Oh yean, nice fight too.

George S. Ledyard
04-28-2007, 08:17 AM
OP's example is so-so. 5/10.

Here is an example of a good Aiki-Boxing or whatyourmacallit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhNKMqlSzcI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebullshido%2Enet%2Fforums%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D54004

Look at 1' 44" for a whoop-ass good kokyu-shomen-ate combo.

Boon.
Actually, this is much more what I was talking about. Even though the guy is zoning out to get more space, his attitude is forward. You notice, virtually every time the attackers move in to strike, he strikes them first. Notice how when he drops that one guy at his feet he is already looking at the next attacker, he's got his focus on the whole group, not just the one he is dealing with. I would say he's done this before... His mind is "inside" their attacks. Of course, they are all adrenalized and raging so they aren't paying any attention to the fact that he owns the space so they simply run into his strikes. If this had been an armed situation, they'd be dead. Good practice should make each person sensitive to when there are openings or not. Then you can play with giving openings to draw an attack and then closing the openings when the other guy commits.

darin
04-28-2007, 08:18 AM
Hey Jeff,

I recommend checking out Yoseikan Budo. You may be able to pick up some good techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z7N5Nt9-Q8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36igXLTOYV0

Darin

George S. Ledyard
04-28-2007, 09:46 AM
Hey Jeff,

I recommend checking out Yoseikan Budo. You may be able to pick up some good techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z7N5Nt9-Q8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36igXLTOYV0

Darin

That is some really gorgeous stuff I must say.

L. Camejo
04-28-2007, 11:21 AM
Interesting video. I can see where the graduated approach (evasion alone, evasion with body control and then all out technique) was used, like we use in the Shodokan randori training method.

However, as we see in our own form of toshu and tanto randori if ones tai sabaki, footwork and posture is poor then it only gets worse when one tries to execute waza from a poor foundation. I agree with George completely regarding keeping a "forward" or irimi mindset. This is also what we do when practicing Shodokan style randori.

However I can't say that the tai sabaki here was the best selection from which to create tsukuri for Aiki waza. Both persons at some point turned their back, hunched over (self-inflicted kuzushi) to a leading side jab and turned to the inside of the attacker, placing them in a prime position each time for a knockout punch to the temple or back of the head by the boxer's trailing edge hand which was always cocked and ready. Imho the waza executed is what one would expect to get as a result of the level and type of tai sabaki and other tactics being used. Much more irimi and kuzushi on initial contact was required before attempting the full application of technique imho. The mindset displayed was too defensive for the sort of attacks a good boxer would give imho. Retreating would result in severe punishment as one gets cornered or placed on the back foot, which would result in limited mobility.

Also the thing about boxing gloves is that one limits the amount of viable aikido techniques available since it is nearly impossible to execute effective tekubi waza (wrist techniques) on a person wearing boxing gloves and resisting. When we practice this sort of thing we use mma or bag gloves (keeps one alert too).

We were inspired by our interview with Shihan Seiji Tanaka (8th dan, JAA/USA) and the recent PCS article by Toby Threadgill (Shindo Yoshin-ryu) about handling full speed attacks. Bob King and I (Jeff Davidson) decided to try out some "Aiki-Boxing". It's very difficult to time Aikido techniques off of a boxer, so we thought this would be a fun way to get some practice in.In all honesty if you wanted to work on speed and PCS then one should go full speed, full power as soon as possible, especially if you are experienced Tomiki Aikidoka. If not, then I understand. If the attacker has on heavy boxing gloves then one should not hold back too much in attack and one should not be afraid to be hit hard in defence since adrenaline dumps only occur if we feel sufficiently threatened. PCS training requires that one adrenalises at least a little bit, so unless one feels the "rush" during a training bout then it can be safe to say that adrenalisation and by extension PCS conditioning is not happening.

Finally if you are working on trying to execute Aikido waza in this context then it will be good practice to discipline oneself to use only Aiki waza instead of resorting to Judo/Jujutsu type takedowns and techniques that sacrifice balance.

Just my 2 cents. I reserve the right to be wrong. We also do training in this sort of way at times. Happy training.
LC:ai::ki:

Don
04-28-2007, 02:47 PM
I would like to suggest one thing that I started trying with some of the students at our school. GET YOUR ARMS UP! I have always worried about the boxing issue. A while back, when George Leydard was writing Aiki columns (REALLY miss your contributions Leydard sensei....) one time he wrote about the maai that different arts/styles use. Kickboxers have one, muay tai has another, boxers have a closer one, aikido has a large one....etc. Leydard sensei pointed out that if you as the aikidoka are standing there with your arms down against someone like a boxer, the range he/she will close to will be much closer than you are used to. Further, beyond a certain point, no matter how fast you are, if the boxer is fast and within HIS range, you won't be able to respond in an aiki-like manner.

So, I experimented with this and dog-gone, Leydard sensei was right, and what I ended up doing was ducking and dodging, like on the video.

THEN I read and saw some video of the Yoshinkan guys and some Muay Tai video, and it dawned on me that, rather than starting with my arms down like we mostly practice aikido, if I put my arms up in a "holding a sword" position, I could very effectively execute aikido techniques against the boxer, or for that matter anyone. Why?

The boxer is trying to close in. If you are holding your arms up like you are holding a sword, except a little higher, (which by the way is like some muay tai guys do it) you can effectively make the boxer extend his distance and frustrate him by being able to block. If he tries to bull in he still has to get past your arms. That is okay because now you have contact and a connection with which to work. This greatly "makes practical many aikido techniques in "modern" situations. So, now I tell students at our school in classes that I teach, "If you stand there with your arms down and you get punched, its your fault....GET YOUR ARMS UP" Give it a try...it makes aikido a lot more useful against so called "modern attacks"

skinnymonkey
04-28-2007, 02:52 PM
Great suggestions from all! Thanks.

I'll try to keep this all in mind next time through.

Jeff D.

mwible
04-28-2007, 03:33 PM
hey i was just wondering: if u wish to do aikido on a boxer, why not just wait for the attack, then dodge/ enter, and go for a punch to the solar plexes/ stomach, or some other atemi. then grab an arm and go into a sankyo or something? that sounds completely possible to me.
-morgan

Michael Douglas
04-28-2007, 04:08 PM
... It's very difficult to time Aikido techniques off of a boxer, so we thought this would be a fun way to get some practice in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QreuuPm24UI

The first two rounds are body movement (tai sabaki) only, the "boxer" is only going about 50% speed (for a warm-up) then we kick it up a bit and get to about 75% speed.
We'd love to hear your comments! Hope you all enjoy it.
It looks interesting but both participants seem very off-balance much of the time.
The 'aikidoist' turns his back a lot!
The 'boxer' is not a boxer obviously, he looks to be an aikidoist wearing boxing gloves, BIG difference.

I think properly training in this exercise will bring great results, keep at it!

Smaller gloves are essential for this, and if not going all-out against a real boxer why have him wear gloves at all?

George S. Ledyard
04-28-2007, 06:41 PM
hey i was just wondering: if u wish to do aikido on a boxer, why not just wait for the attack, then dodge/ enter, and go for a punch to the solar plexes/ stomach, or some other atemi. then grab an arm and go into a sankyo or something? that sounds completely possible to me.
-morgan
Morgan,
You need to try this when someone is really trying to hit you. Get some head gear though because you are going to find out it's a bit harder than what you are talking about.

George S. Ledyard
04-28-2007, 06:44 PM
It looks interesting but both participants seem very off-balance much of the time.
The 'aikidoist' turns his back a lot!
The 'boxer' is not a boxer obviously, he looks to be an aikidoist wearing boxing gloves, BIG difference.

I think properly training in this exercise will bring great results, keep at it!

Smaller gloves are essential for this, and if not going all-out against a real boxer why have him wear gloves at all?
A partner wearing gloves is usually a bit more willing to commit to an attack than one who isn't... Makes the practice better. It's the same reason I like doing tachi dori against someone with a shinai rather than a bokken. It's not for my safety, it's because I get a better attack.

Also, in case of contact, gloves keep the blood to an absolute minimum.

Aikibu
04-28-2007, 06:58 PM
Smaller MMA Gloves and Headgear are good. Keep it simple first and build on technique by incorporating feints, jabs, counters, and backfists.... Good Luck. :)

Let them pound away and it will give them a great perspective on taking punches, kicks, relaxation and focus under randori duress despite the adrenaline dump. Let the Uke's use strong Kiai too. :)

William Hazen

ChrisHein
04-28-2007, 08:05 PM
Ledyard sensei.
Great critiques. Maybe you could post a video of yourself demonstrating what you are talking about against an attack like we see in Jeff's video. I would love to see your skill.

Those Yoseikan guys move really well. I wonder how they would look doing something with resistance, like we see in Jeffs videos.

Jeff.
Nice videos.

divinecedar
04-29-2007, 12:05 AM
:D The Aiki-Boxing is exactly what is needed in the Aikido world. Certainly it isn't perfect--who amongst us is? It is a tremendous step forward in realizing the practicality of Aikido is real life situations. I personally believe that non-compliance is the true key to the full development of one's potential. Good job!

salim
04-29-2007, 12:34 AM
Finally the Aikikai World is waking up to the truth of practical application. I bet the Yoseikan guys catch a lot heat from the traditionalist Aikikai. Keep up the development of practical application of Aikido against real attacks. There are some many things in Akikai that even though they are fun, are really impractical for self defense. This is just great. Please continue the development, this is a tremendous boost to look at reality for the Aikido World.

Alec Corper
04-29-2007, 04:34 AM
At the risk of catching a lot of flak I'd like to strongly disagree with many of the last posts. I don't think aiki-boxing is "exactly what is needed in the Aikido world". Bobbing and weaving and ducking has nothing to do with "real" aikido. The cultivation of the spirit of irimi is difficult enough without further hampering it with poor technique stemming from an entirely different approach to combat.
"There are some many things in Akikai that even though they are fun, are really impractical for self defense." What kind of aikido do you practice that is "fun" but impractical. That is not Budo, either what you are studying contributes to martial development or it has no place in a dojo.
I have great respect for Yoseikan having trained briefly with some of them including Augier Sensei. Please do not confuse the athleticism required to do dramatic sutemi on the mat with the spirit of "cutting the enemy down with one strike".
I think that the intention behind this kind of training is admirable and I mean no criticism towards the people involved, but I firmly believe that proper study of the actual principles embodied in the waza with an attitude of shugyo, rather than self defense or sport, would go much further in creating the foundations required.
I have fought against different kinds of martial artists and i agree that the first thing that goes out of the window when you are hit is "the plan", so if people want to improve forget the plan. Practice your art until it is embedded to the bone, follow the practice of shu ha ri, but not too quickly. Personally I think that aikido will suffer more form the so-called "realists" than from the traditionalists.
If people really want to learn to fight stop wasting your time in the dojo, just check out a few bars and issue a challenge. If you want to box find a boxer and if you want to learn aikido find out what it is.

salim
04-29-2007, 08:01 AM
Alec Corper,

My dojo adheres more to the Yoseikan school of thought, although we are not officially register with there organization. We use some Judo and Jujitsu techniques in our workout, but the bases is Aikdio, what ever that means. Aikido means different things, to a lot of different people. So the point of trying to convince someone like myself and others about the traditionalist mindset is waste of time. We're pretty open minded and I'm glad our sensi is like this. It's great to see fellow Aikidoist explore other avenues for self defense. Perhaps some other blog where others think as you do will suit your fancy.

I knew sooner or later we would have some opposition to realistic fighting. I think you are probably arguing on the wrong blog for the traditionalist mindset. Sooner or later the natural progression of the martial arts will overcome those who want to live in the ancient Japanese times. The world will pass you by why you live in the rim of cultural, spiritual fantasy. A person will wake up some 50 years from now and see the world practicing martial arts that have evolved while long hair hippies practice there spiritual Aikido in some remote forest, intellectualizing there egos. For those Aikiodist who want to learn self defense, we will continue our quest for martial effectiveness. Let's leave those who prefer the open minded approach to there own development.

Alec Corper
04-29-2007, 09:09 AM
Thank you Salim for your comments, we agree on one thing, aikido means different things to different people. I do hope , however, that you are not confusing me with someone else. After 30 years of martial arts, I don't have enough hair to be a long hair hippy, and I'm sure that some of the soldiers, police officers and bouncers I have worked with over the years would appreciate what you call "realistic fighting",
Ron Tisdale recently said to someone who got a touch fed up with juvenile responses, "If you cant stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen", and I guess I've reached the point of thinking that if there's no cooking going on he is probably right, so I will leave all you tough guys to it and retire to my "cultural, spiritual fantasy".
;-)

Bob King
04-29-2007, 09:16 AM
Thanks to all of you for your very insightful and honest responses, particularly from senseis Ledyard and Camejo! Being Tomiki/Shodokan stylists we were attempting keeping to the graduated approach. But it obviously fell apart a lot faster than I would have hoped for! It's quite different doing taisabaki against a gloved hand than a foam tanto thrust in a basically straight line. I agree with all that that our taisabaki sucked royally, both Jeff and I made frequent mistakes: turning our back, moving to the inside without controlling the back hand, being much too defensive and ending up on our heels and off balance, and definitely not owning the mat, not "attacking the attack" as Sensei Merritt Stevens used to admonish us to do and Ledyard so effectively pointed out. Keeping hands up at all times is also an excellent suggestion, thanks Don. I did try as much as possible to keep my techniques to Aikido only but instinct takes over and Judo type techniques snuck in, that discipline is hard to maintain once you tie up. We were keeping our attacks slower, simpler and mellower as we are still in the experimental stage and both still need to go to work the next day to pay the bills! For which reasons we will also probably continue to wear heavier gloves to ensure safety and keep the blood and broken bones to a minimum but having the defender wear MMA gloves to counterattack with atemi is another great suggestion. Headgear would also be boone to training and would allow for greater commitment to the attack. As to traditional versus non-traditional training, I think both methods are valid and necessary and have their place (I enjoy both for different reasons) but that is probably a discussion for another forum thread. Thanks again for all your input, I'm sure Jeff and I will be trying to implement the suggestions and put up more video for critique. As an aside, Camejo sensei, will you be attending the International Sport Aikido Festival in Ohio in August of this year? I will be and would enjoy meeting you in person. Keep the suggestions and criticism coming in, this has been a great and very enlightening discussion!

Amir Krause
04-29-2007, 09:37 AM
While I find the exercise to seem like fun, and one which could be used as a good training experience, I do not think this is true for you yet. Neither person in the video demonstrated anything resembling Aikido. We practice against boxing attacks frequently (more often of the Karate style, but the difference is minimal), including evasion\movement "half-Randori" with Uke only doing Tai-Sabaki, though we do not normally use boxing gloves.

I have often seen the way you both moved among beginners, they forget all the Tai-Sabaki they have learnt in Aikido. The good news is you are past the first phase - most beginners stick in place and use their hands to deflect the attacks, you started moving. The bad news is your movements are full of basic mistakes. I do not know if it is your lack of experience - 1 year practice is a short time, or lack of experienced teacher to show you the way (you are experimenting, a teacher would have shown you the way).

I will give you two free advices:
1. SLOWER , keep the spirit, but at 10% speed so you will have the time to process the movement and decide on your route in time, the way you moved is typical for people who are late and feel they must get away. However, changing the speed must be done equally at both ends - not only by the attacker, and if an attack enters even though you could have outrun it, who cares.

2. Move TOWARDS the attack, not from him. Your purpose should be to hug your attacker before he is ready to give a second strike (if you can get to him before then, while the punch is being thrown, it is much better). You should move towards him, not from him. We often use the image of “sliding doors” to describe this concept. Note, this is a lower level physical explanation of the Aiki spirit Ledyard Sensei wrote about – Irimi should be performed even earlier, responding to the intent to punch, but doing that to anyone is extremely difficult, and if he has some experience – even more so (I know how often I fail).

Amir

mwible
04-29-2007, 12:11 PM
i spar regularly with my taekwondo buddies (in taekwondo) and i can get a lock on them every now and then, i dont try to much since im supposed to be doing TKD, but id think they have about the spead of a boxer. so i can still see it as being entirely possible to get a lock on a boxer.
-morgan

Aikibu
04-29-2007, 12:45 PM
Finally the Aikikai World is waking up to the truth of practical application. I bet the Yoseikan guys catch a lot heat from the traditionalist Aikikai. Keep up the development of practical application of Aikido against real attacks. There are some many things in Akikai that even though they are fun, are really impractical for self defense. This is just great. Please continue the development, this is a tremendous boost to look at reality for the Aikido World.

I find very interesting that some folks assume this is something new. All the video did was show some dudes running around off balance backpedeling avoiding punches and somehow that is "reality" ???

I guess you you want to tire out your uke by forcing him to run around a ring it's ok. :)

"Reality" based Randori would have the boxer box and the Aikidoka execute techniques like Atemi and Irimi with perhaps a foot sweep or two to assist the nice boxer with his balance.

Of course I am assuming one wants to learn Aikido. :)

William Hazen

Aikibu
04-29-2007, 12:47 PM
While I find the exercise to seem like fun, and one which could be used as a good training experience, I do not think this is true for you yet. Neither person in the video demonstrated anything resembling Aikido. We practice against boxing attacks frequently (more often of the Karate style, but the difference is minimal), including evasion\movement "half-Randori" with Uke only doing Tai-Sabaki, though we do not normally use boxing gloves.

I have often seen the way you both moved among beginners, they forget all the Tai-Sabaki they have learnt in Aikido. The good news is you are past the first phase - most beginners stick in place and use their hands to deflect the attacks, you started moving. The bad news is your movements are full of basic mistakes. I do not know if it is your lack of experience - 1 year practice is a short time, or lack of experienced teacher to show you the way (you are experimenting, a teacher would have shown you the way).

I will give you two free advices:
1. SLOWER , keep the spirit, but at 10% speed so you will have the time to process the movement and decide on your route in time, the way you moved is typical for people who are late and feel they must get away. However, changing the speed must be done equally at both ends - not only by the attacker, and if an attack enters even though you could have outrun it, who cares.

2. Move TOWARDS the attack, not from him. Your purpose should be to hug your attacker before he is ready to give a second strike (if you can get to him before then, while the punch is being thrown, it is much better). You should move towards him, not from him. We often use the image of "sliding doors" to describe this concept. Note, this is a lower level physical explanation of the Aiki spirit Ledyard Sensei wrote about -- Irimi should be performed even earlier, responding to the intent to punch, but doing that to anyone is extremely difficult, and if he has some experience -- even more so (I know how often I fail).

Amir

THIS is more like it...:) AND will lead you to the place you want to go...:)

William Hazen

salim
04-29-2007, 01:56 PM
William Hazen,

I was referring more to the concept of reality self defense more than the video itself. There are some who don't like the idea and discourage the principle altogether. They want Aikido to be philosophical to amuse there egos. We need more reality training at full speed with people who know how to really attach, not staged attacks.

salim
04-29-2007, 01:58 PM
forget the video......let's train for real self defense

L. Camejo
04-29-2007, 02:06 PM
Hi Robert,

Kudos for the type of training you are doing up in Mansfield. It's good to get out of the box and see what the training method is capable of imho.it obviously fell apart a lot faster than I would have hoped for! It's quite different doing taisabaki against a gloved hand than a foam tanto thrust in a basically straight line. I agree with all that that our taisabaki sucked royally, both Jeff and I made frequent mistakes: turning our back, moving to the inside without controlling the back hand, being much too defensive and ending up on our heels and off balance, and definitely not owning the mat, not "attacking the attack" as Sensei Merritt Stevens used to admonish us to do and Ledyard so effectively pointed out.Having tried this sort of thing myself I know it is quite difficult, especially if it is something that you are just embarking upon. It takes some time to allow the skillset from one type of training (e.g. tanto randori) to express itself in this format which is much more variable. I agree totally that dealing with gloved hands is quite different than what we typically do against straight tanto strikes for our tanto randori. This is why I think toshu randori may be a bit more applicable to the "clinch" aspects of the boxing style attacks, whereas the reaction and metsuke aspects of tanto randori may help with jabs and other quick strikes. Regardless of the base format one uses however, it will be difficult at first.

Use of tegatana (using tai sabaki while placing tegatana on the striking hand to parry and track the arm) helps a lot since it gives us a way of knowing where the attacker's arm and body is without needing to see anything. This minimizes reaction and entry time from my experience and helps with kuzushi since we are able to track the attacker's position through touch, allowing us to get in place for technique much sooner and adapt much quicker to any changes or reactive movements the attacker might make.

Keeping hands up at all times is also an excellent suggestion, thanks Don.Interestingly enough I've found that the "hands up" approach works well when I am dealing with boxing or kick and punch attacks in Jujutsu training. The reason for this is because I am at a ma ai that is a good bit closer than what I use for Aikido. At that close distance I don't hjave the time to raise my hands up. However, if I can maintain Aikido distance e.g. as we use in tanto randori (which I've found to be critical when engaging a boxer using Aikido since it forces him to come at me) my "hands down" approach keeps him guessing right up until I make contact on his jaw with shomen ate or aigamae ate, since it comes up right along his body in the blind spot on his centreline. If my hands are up he will always see my atemi waza on approach. So it depends on the ma ai you want to work with imho, everything is determined by your tactical approach. When executing Aiki waza I try to cut down in one stroke using Sen timing wherever possible (usually using atemi waza), hence I try not to give anything away.I did try as much as possible to keep my techniques to Aikido only but instinct takes over and Judo type techniques snuck in, that discipline is hard to maintain once you tie up.This is difficult and requires a lot of mental compartmentalization imho. This gets worse the more structured training you have in other methods outside of Aikido. The only way to combat it is to keep the waza within the Aikido repertoire by stopping or not rewarding any waza that are not within the Aikido set. To me this is important since we will always tend to do what is easiest and natural in a given situation. The only way to cultivate a particular skillset is to reduce the "noise" from other things as much as possible. This type of training is to better ones Aikido in particular, when I teach pure self defence then instinctive waza is your friend as long as it works.

As an aside, Camejo sensei, will you be attending the International Sport Aikido Festival in Ohio in August of this year? I will be and would enjoy meeting you in person. Keep the suggestions and criticism coming in, this has been a great and very enlightening discussion!I am hoping to attend with the first ever contingent from this country. This depends a lot on sponsorship which seems to be iffy at the moment. However if we are successful in getting there I will definitely let you know.

Happy training.
LC:ai::ki:

George S. Ledyard
04-29-2007, 02:33 PM
The only way to cultivate a particular skillset is to reduce the "noise" from other things as much as possible. This type of training is to better ones Aikido in particular, when I teach pure self defence then instinctive waza is your friend as long as it works.

This is a very cogent comment...

Bob King
04-29-2007, 02:52 PM
Larry,

I do hope you get to come to Ohio so we can meet in person. Thanks for your comments and observations. Though I've had lots of experience doing tanto randori (not that I'm good, just lots of experience), this was a first doing striking randori and keeping it just to Tomiki techniques. Your comment "The only way to combat it is to keep the waza within the Aikido repertoire by stopping or not rewarding any waza that are not within the Aikido set." is very pertinent to a side goal (long term) of developing a randori shiai system that based on striking, as an alternative to tanto/toshu and more appealing to the general public. Everyone loves to see someone get tagged!

Thanks again and I hope to se you and your contingent in August!!!

CitoMaramba
04-29-2007, 03:03 PM
http://video.google.com/url?docid=6281496452113836003&esrc=sr1&ev=v&q=kuroiwa+aikido&vidurl=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DVyxbvg4fJ-M&usg=AL29H20-kKoeHavNDCbSR_06kNACGYq-bg

mwible
04-29-2007, 03:28 PM
http://video.google.com/url?docid=6281496452113836003&esrc=sr1&ev=v&q=kuroiwa+aikido&vidurl=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DVyxbvg4fJ-M&usg=AL29H20-kKoeHavNDCbSR_06kNACGYq-bg

that was a great little video there, never thought about some of that stuff :)

-morgan

CitoMaramba
04-29-2007, 05:45 PM
You can find out more about Kuroiwa Sensei in this blog entry by Ellis Amdur (http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=138)

Michael Douglas
04-29-2007, 06:02 PM
A partner wearing gloves is usually a bit more willing to commit to an attack than one who isn't... Makes the practice better. It's the same reason I like doing tachi dori against someone with a shinai rather than a bokken. It's not for my safety, it's because I get a better attack..
Yes I think this is a great point,
hadn't really considered it before.

ChrisHein
04-29-2007, 10:13 PM
Kuroiwa, has GREAT form. Some of his ideas I don't really agree with though.

xuzen
04-29-2007, 11:55 PM
Hey Jeff,

I recommend checking out Yoseikan Budo. You may be able to pick up some good techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z7N5Nt9-Q8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36igXLTOYV0

Darin

Yes yes yes...Love em' love em all....

One question though... how come we don't see this people in the UFC, Pride and MMA events? And aren't what they do called Mix Martial Art anyway?

Boon.

darin
04-30-2007, 02:55 AM
Yes yes yes...Love em' love em all....

One question though... how come we don't see this people in the UFC, Pride and MMA events? And aren't what they do called Mix Martial Art anyway?

Boon.

As far as I know Yoseikan Budo has its own MMA tournaments. I don't know if they enter into UFC, Pride or MMA events outside of their organization. Hopefully Phil Farmer can answer your questions if he happens to catch this thread.

salim
04-30-2007, 07:38 AM
Yoseikan Aikido is awesome. I wish we had a dojo in our our. I would go there and train in a heart beat. I love it, simply awesome.

Keith R Lee
04-30-2007, 08:23 AM
Yes yes yes...Love em' love em all....

One question though... how come we don't see this people in the UFC, Pride and MMA events? And aren't what they do called Mix Martial Art anyway?

Boon.

Because that's a far cry from even amateur MMA competition, let alone the big leagues.

Roman Kremianski
04-30-2007, 10:25 PM
The makiotoshi at 6:11 is kinda nice. I like it when people make videos like this. It may be sloppy and unaiki, but shows that performing techniques on people who refuse to "blend" is kind of...hard.

Michael Douglas
05-01-2007, 02:59 PM
Yeah, the video is entertaining and in great humour even after
he fell flat on his nose he was laughing!

Hurry up with part 2 fellas!

CNYMike
05-01-2007, 06:02 PM
..... They want Aikido to be philosophical .....

News flash: Aikido is the most spiritual/philosphical of the martial arts, going all the way back to O Sensei who saw his martial training as "personal purification." It has nothing to do with how anyone wants it; that's how it is.


..... We need more reality training at full speed with people who know how to really attach, not staged attacks.

News update: Every technique ever practiced in any martial arts school anywhere in the world is "staged," because you know who's attcking, you know what the attack is, and you are practicing counters that your partner will probably do to you within a few minute when you're attacking. That's true reagardless of whether it's katate dori -_______________ in Aikido or a focus mit drill in a kickboxing school. If you're sparring, well, you and your sparring partner know the same technques and counters to them and are pobably doing things to limit the risk of injury, such as wearing groin cups, head gear, and other padding, and that's after agreeing on the contact level. Same for grappling; I doubt anyone in any BJJ class anywhere is going to choke someone until their brains die from lack of oxygen. It would be all over the news if that happened! And you might have trouble finding students.

If "traditional" Aikido is "staged," well, it's in good company. :p

DonMagee
05-01-2007, 09:13 PM
News flash: Aikido is the most spiritual/philosphical of the martial arts, going all the way back to O Sensei who saw his martial training as "personal purification." It has nothing to do with how anyone wants it; that's how it is.

News update: Every technique ever practiced in any martial arts school anywhere in the world is "staged," because you know who's attcking, you know what the attack is, and you are practicing counters that your partner will probably do to you within a few minute when you're attacking. That's true reagardless of whether it's katate dori -_______________ in Aikido or a focus mit drill in a kickboxing school. If you're sparring, well, you and your sparring partner know the same technques and counters to them and are pobably doing things to limit the risk of injury, such as wearing groin cups, head gear, and other padding, and that's after agreeing on the contact level. Same for grappling; I doubt anyone in any BJJ class anywhere is going to choke someone until their brains die from lack of oxygen. It would be all over the news if that happened! And you might have trouble finding students.

If "traditional" Aikido is "staged," well, it's in good company. :p

Ahh yes, argue the language and not the spirit of the message. We all know that sparing will not develop any skill kata can't.

CNYMike
05-02-2007, 01:24 AM
Ahh yes, argue the language and not the spirit of the message. We all know that sparing will not develop any skill kata can't.


Yes, I suppose I must appologize to the Aikiweb community in general and Mr. Shaw in particular for shooting my mouth off without knowing what I'm talking about. I don't know the in's and out's of Aikido's politics, and for all I know, Mr. Shaw is correct and Aikikai really is lead by a load of egotistical philosophers whose students can't wait for them to die so they can rejigger the training and do it "realistically."

Then again, for all I know they're not. How does one check that sort of thing? The Aikikai people I've met since I started back in Aikido in 2004 seem nice enough to me, but again, I must be mistaken.

And of course I must have been mistaken when I read the plaque back in Guro Kevin Seaman's school that had the creed he wanted his students to follow, including "I will refrain from criticizing other styles and systems for they all have something to offer." I certainly mus have been totally incorrect to try and see what I get out of Aikido, not force it to suit me. That can't be what "open minded" means, now can it?

Please forgive me for yet again for wasting your badnwidth. I humbly submit to the requisit punishment of 100 lashes with a wet noodle.

Bob King
05-02-2007, 06:43 AM
Michael D,

Yeah, the video is entertaining and in great humour even after
he fell flat on his nose he was laughing!

Hurry up with part 2 fellas!

Well, that was the spirit in which the video was done and created, we were just having a good time messing about with some ideas, nothing too serious. If you can't laugh while training then what is the point to it all? My nose it still not right after it got bounced off my glove. :D Best laugh I'd had in long time. Hopefully we can get another segment up in a few weeks for everyone's entertainment and our edification!

L. Camejo
05-02-2007, 04:35 PM
Michael D,

Well, that was the spirit in which the video was done and created, we were just having a good time messing about with some ideas, nothing too serious. If you can't laugh while training then what is the point to it all? My nose it still not right after it got bounced off my glove. :D Best laugh I'd had in long time. Hopefully we can get another segment up in a few weeks for everyone's entertainment and our edification!
I for one am looking forward to another segment. If I can get a camera to film some of our stuff I'd probably post it so we could compare some notes too. I think this sort of training is very important for those who want to explore what can be expressed spontaneously through Aikido in a direct, measurable, physical sense.

Imho this sort of practice helps one to get out of the mind and movement "box" that often develops through kata training only and builds a bridge towards true spontaneous application of the strategy, tactics and waza that are enshrined within the Aikido philosophy. I even have pals who are within the Aikikai who welcome this sort of training because they realise that it can assist one in understanding and gain some real skill in spontaneously expressing the fundamental Aiki principles.

So film on Bob.
LC:ai::ki:

CNYMike
05-03-2007, 01:38 AM
Michael D,

Well, that was the spirit in which the video was done and created, we were just having a good time messing about with some ideas, nothing too serious. If you can't laugh while training then what is the point to it all? My nose it still not right after it got bounced off my glove. :D Best laugh I'd had in long time. Hopefully we can get another segment up in a few weeks for everyone's entertainment and our edification!

Good luck with it.

What you might want to think about is borrowing a concept from systems that already come with kcikboxing integrated with locks and throws, such as Filipino maritial arts, in that kickboxing range material faciltitates entry, or getting past the person's defenses. In other words, kickboxing attack and defenses are not done for their own sake but to get you inside to where you can do a lock or throw. You don't just wan to evade or trade shots but get in and do something.

I belive Aikido has this idea, albiet stylized or in "shorthand." What we think of as the first portion of a technique is really the entry, which addresses the initial move and gets you away from other attacks. The pinciple is the same.

You may want to go a bit slower, if necessary, and think about how to evade but stay in close enough to do soemthing. Don't worry about getting a specifc lock or throw; just play with ways to get in where you CAN do something. This include atemi waza, given that one purpose for them seems to be to his the other person to prevent their next move.

I have no idea how well this will work, but it seems the logical way to go.

Just food for thought.

Bob King
05-03-2007, 06:45 AM
We will continue to film and post, both tanto as well as open/gloved hand randori. We will also practice as suggested at slower speeds in an effort to help the body memory ingrain reactions. Thanks for the encouragement. I'd love to see other folk's attempts at free styling, get a camera, LC!

CNYMike
05-03-2007, 11:38 AM
We will continue to film and post, both tanto as well as open/gloved hand randori. We will also practice as suggested at slower speeds in an effort to help the body memory ingrain reactions. Thanks for the encouragement. I'd love to see other folk's attempts at free styling, get a camera, LC!

Also make a point on using your basic footwork and stances; don't go so nuts you forget all about that! If you want your hands up in more of a guarding position, ok. But pay attention to everything else.

skinnymonkey
05-04-2007, 12:44 PM
Hello everyone...

Bob and I are back for more abuse! After all of the insightful comments from last time we posted (special thanks to Sensei Ledyard, Sensei Camejo and all of the others) we decided to go for another round of Aiki-Boxing. We ran through some slo mo drills before taping as a few of you suggested. Then we threw some MMA gloves on tried to add a little more speed. We tried to implement some of the technique suggestions that we saw as well. We are always open to constructive criticism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1w-8XhXutI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1w-8XhXutI)

We also put up some of our Tanto Randori practice (Sensei Camejo made some reference to that).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-0bjAFgIZ8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-0bjAFgIZ8)

Hope you all like it...

Thanks,

Jeff D.
http://www.usaikido.com
http://www.mansfieldtomikiaikido.com

Roman Kremianski
05-04-2007, 01:00 PM
That's very cool, thanks for posting it up. It's definitely a great experiment.

I noticed nage stopping blows directly with his hands though...as in putting his hands up and catching the punches into his palms. That would mess you up without the boxing gloves wouldn't it?

DonMagee
05-04-2007, 01:48 PM
Slapping blows is a common way to parry, however his hands are reaching out for blows, and this is commonly accepted as a bad idea.

By all means keep up what you are doing, its good progress. There were some nice throws in there, and it looks like great fun.

On to the negative part.

You are rushing the puncher in a very linear fashion. On top of this your hands are not guarding your body or your head. Even when your hands were up, they were dropped while rushing in for the clinch. A good striker would abuse this without remorse.

While there were some aiki moves in there, the majority of the techniques were a rush to clinch, then a poor wrestling/judo style takedown with both of you ending up on the ground. Only in very few of these cases did the guy doing the takedown land in a controlling position. Finally, while wearing the boxing gloves, the puncher would get sucked into moving backwards linearly. He should circle off and jab more to keep his partner at bay.

Good work though, I'd suggest spending some more time working judo throws, you are in great position to do them. You just need to work on your unbalancing more. You might try an opposite drill where one guy just tries to clinch while you try to break the clinch and throw.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-04-2007, 02:30 PM
Good work though, I'd suggest spending some more time working judo throws, you are in great position to do them.

Although if the idea is to develop aikido techniques, that might not be the best direction. I mean, if aikido people show they can use judo throws in an MMA-ish context...isn't that really judo-boxing instead of aiki-boxing?

Aiki1
05-04-2007, 02:33 PM
Fun stuff, and a good experiment. thanks for posting it.

I think that one of the most important things to remember in this type of encounter is that in Aikido, the outcome can often be determined in the initial engagement. Throws and locks can only be executed properly and safely if one is not open to a pummelling while trying to do them. So, with a striker, position is very important, along with knowing how to either eliminate, or successfully guard, openings. Without that, it's difficult to actually get to a throw or lock etc. without getting knocked out or smashed up too much first, as I think you've experienced.

I personally would work on the opening engagement much more - "blending" movements and dynamic positioning. This, to me, is what you have to figure out. Then everything after that will be somewhat easier. The moves are there in Aikido, but I would say they're not generally successfully taught in application to this kind of encounter. Parrying, covering properly, and understanding off-line irimi, guarding the strike zone, and circling movement, will go a long way.

LN

Amir Krause
05-06-2007, 11:01 AM
Hello everyone...

Bob and I are back for more abuse! After all of the insightful comments from last time we posted (special thanks to Sensei Ledyard, Sensei Camejo and all of the others) we decided to go for another round of Aiki-Boxing. We ran through some slo mo drills before taping as a few of you suggested. Then we threw some MMA gloves on tried to add a little more speed. We tried to implement some of the technique suggestions that we saw as well. We are always open to constructive criticism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1w-8XhXutI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1w-8XhXutI)

We also put up some of our Tanto Randori practice (Sensei Camejo made some reference to that).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-0bjAFgIZ8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-0bjAFgIZ8)

Hope you all like it...

Thanks,

Jeff D.
http://www.usaikido.com
http://www.mansfieldtomikiaikido.com

Jeff

I watched the new Aiki-Boxing.
The good news is you have improved, you move forward rather then back, and I hope you can feel the difference yourselves.

The bad news are this is still far from my understanding of Aiki. You are both too full and put too much importance on the end, rather then the way.
Focus the practice on the first movement, as Uke attacks, the Nage should get into superior position. Forget the throw \ continuation, and check if Nage achieved anything or is he still expecting to be hit. I rarely saw any example of superior position \ owning the space \ ... (Different people have different names for this).
You still practice at full speed, and thus neither your timing nor your movement has improved. Work slowly, both of you, and let the strike enter if you were too late.

Very often you jump straight into the line of attack. This is both a sign of waking up too late and knowing it (in your body) and of lack of experience in Aikido movement.
Irimi into the center is legitimate when you actually control via the move. One should not move this way if he is totally open.

Hope this gives you some more hints.

Amir

Dan Austin
05-06-2007, 11:27 AM
Hello everyone...

Bob and I are back for more abuse! After all of the insightful comments from last time we posted (special thanks to Sensei Ledyard, Sensei Camejo and all of the others) we decided to go for another round of Aiki-Boxing. We ran through some slo mo drills before taping as a few of you suggested. Then we threw some MMA gloves on tried to add a little more speed. We tried to implement some of the technique suggestions that we saw as well. We are always open to constructive criticism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1w-8XhXutI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1w-8XhXutI)

We also put up some of our Tanto Randori practice (Sensei Camejo made some reference to that).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-0bjAFgIZ8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-0bjAFgIZ8)

Hope you all like it...

Thanks,

Jeff D.
http://www.usaikido.com
http://www.mansfieldtomikiaikido.com

Hello Jeff,

I have to comment on this because it simply doesn't look much like Aikido. Granted this may be because Aikido is difficult to use, or not geared toward modern attacks. I applaud your efforts to update the techniques with more realistic training. But if we don't try to apply the principles then it becomes bad MMA. Take this with a grain of salt of course, because I don't have a camera or opportunity to try to go you one better on this. What makes this look unlike Aikido to me is the lack of control and decisiveness. I don't know which person is you, but I would expect nage to be more reserved and in control of his own center, waiting for uke to attack. In some scenarios it seems nage is moving around just as much and just as uncentered as uke.

Clearly, trying to gain control of uke's arms in a boxing context is simply not going to work, and in addition it's not up to nage to dictate the technique used. If uke grabs you, fine, but otherwise reaching for his arms could never work to control his center. Look at the Shioda clips on your site. In some cases he strikes as uke enters, which of course is a difficult timing issue. But I would suggest forgetting about manipulating uke's arms most of the time. Take over the space he occupies and manipulate his head. Forget about the lead hand, there is no reliable way to capture a jab even if you go from the shoulder. Against someone with better boxing skill it would be totally hopeless. If uke were to restrict himself to either single jab, or fake plus jab, or double jab, just those three options at random, you'd never get the arm. I think the best chance to get an arm is to focus on his rear hand. When he starts to throw a jab, smother it and attack his rear hand, smothering both at the same time since he may being doing a 1 - 2, and then either going for his head or his rear arm with ikkyo if it's in the way. Only if he tries to throw the rear hand while you're in contact with it would tenkan be appropriate. If you miss the entry, you can't chase him though. If you're chasing him, how can it be Aikido? You become the attacker then and he can counter you. Evade as needed until he overcommits, or you can time it and control his center even if he doesn't commit. If you both do essentially the same thing, but one tries using Aikido techniques while the other boxes, that just doesn't seem to be Aikido to me, you may as well just box. Well, that's my armchair quarterbacking. If it doesn't work and this is the direction you want to go, then real MMA training may be a better option.

skinnymonkey
05-06-2007, 06:15 PM
Thanks so much for the insight everyone. We did make many changes to how we moved since the first attempt. Neither of us claim to be doing this perfectly... we're just trying something out that we know would be extremely difficult. We are absolutely doing this from a frame of mind of mutual education and it is very helpful to get such great feedback from people all over the world. Your suggestions are all very valid and we appreciate them all.

We are trying to avoid making this into an "MMA" style thing, and we are making an honest effort to use aiki techniques and principles. I like the idea of trying to control uke's head... one of the most difficult things we've found is trying to get that arm under control.

Amir... I can definitely tell the difference when feeling like I'm moving forward instead of retreating. I'm glad it is showing up... I know that I'm reacting and moving in instead of blending. I guess that's why we're practicing this! We did do some slow motion stuff before this, but we didn't get it on tape.

I'm still trying to figure out a way to get circular movements in with such quick direct attacks.

Thanks again for all of the input... it is very valuable to me and I really appreciate it. We'll try to get another tape on this sometime in the next few weeks and we'll post another as long as anyone is interested!

Jeff D.

P.S. This is kind of like distance learning with Aikido... interesting.

L. Camejo
05-06-2007, 06:53 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1w-8XhXutI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1w-8XhXutI)Great improvements in tai sabaki and irimi in this video. Much improvement also in looking for/creating opportunities for Aiki waza.

Jeff: You appeared to be very "hand" centred. This means that you are often rushing in hands first, using a lot of upper body strength without much follow up by engaging your centre to provide power and stability for your waza through your hands or to manipulate your attacker's movements. What often happens is that when you make hand on hand contact with your attacker he feels your movements through that contact and as a result will find ways to avoid or block your technique by relaxing and feeling your movements. Waki shimete (keeping armpit closed while executing technique) should help some. It will also help you to keep the arms and hands relaxed to feel and adapt to the attacker's changes better while being able to generate power and movement from your legs the instant you want to attempt technique.

Imho you also did quite a bit of stepping backward when you put the MMA gloves on and appeared to be using more of a boxing tactical set, standing toe to toe with your attacker a lot and attempting to tie up his hands at close range boxing style. Keep moving at angles and force him to adjust and recalibrate, this will assist you in creating an opening to his side for entry and technique or force him to strike and give you an opening. Your loss of footing on a few occasions occured when you tried to "muscle through" some techniques instead of keeping posture and using i do ryoku (power of movement).

Bob: Great improvements in technique discipline. I saw a few times where you felt the need to go for a leg reap or sacrifice throw and successfully stopped the urge and did the Aiki waza that was available at the time. You got off a few good hiji waza as well as a couple aigamae ate and mae otoshi, which was nice. The only bad thing I saw was similar to what Jeff was doing when entering with hands raised, your attacker was able to sense your intent and movement and shut down your options, causing you to run after him a bit. It's good to try to initiate contact instead of always waiting to react to an attack but it is difficult unless one can get in a deceptive, clean atemi that gives the opponent zero reaction time (i.e. no telegraphing).

I think generally when you guys put the MMA gloves on you went a bit into a "strike focused" approach instead of a movement, timing and entry approach that is more characteristic of Aiki waza. Remember how we do atemi waza in Shodokan/Tomiki, if it does not penetrate through the attacker enough to cause severe kuzushi then it will be difficult for atemi to have much effect. Imho putting the gloves on may have encouraged you guys to try using the more percussive approach to atemi (instead of the full power entering strike/pushes we use) which would result in some of the lighter, impact oriented strikes that had little or no effect on balance. I personally find it easier and safer to go full force with our type of atemi instead of the impact-oriented type during freeplay.

Imho I think however you folks should not worrry too much about what others believe "looks like Aikido" since most have never seen or used Aikido in a full resistance "fight" type setting (it never resembles kata closely) and also, the vast majority of our (Tomiki/Shodokan) randori waza tend to be quite linear (quite different to what many might believe Aikido to be). Having said this however the core Aiki principles must be there.

We also put up some of our Tanto Randori practice (Sensei Camejo made some reference to that).Will post comments on the tanto randori later. Trying to get some of our stuff on tape so we can compare notes. It should be up soon as long as I get someone who can handle the ukemi who also has some decent boxing type skills. We however have no boxing mits so that should be most interesting.:)

Overall good improvements.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-06-2007, 08:16 PM
I'm still trying to figure out a way to get circular movements in with such quick direct attacks.

While in many ways you might be the best person to figure out what you might improve, or what ideas might help, I thought I'd throw something in on the off chance that an outside suggestion (with less knowledge of the specifics) might help.

One of my all-time favorite articles on Aikido is the following:

Irimi, by Ellis Amdur
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=686

One of the key ideas I take from this article is that all tenkan begins with irimi. That is, the circular movements begin with a strong, direct thrust in off-line. Only after uke's balance is disrupted do you turn it into a spiraling motion.

In my limited BJJ experience, although dealing with grabs and takedowns rather than boxing jabs, I also have trouble with circular movements. I feel like I generally get "out-circled"; that is, they take advantage of my turning to get to my back.

Bob King
05-06-2007, 09:50 PM
[QUOTE=Larry Camejo;177622]Great improvements in tai sabaki and irimi in this video. Much improvement also in looking for/creating opportunities for Aiki waza.

Thanks Larry, I appreciate your comments as you have an understanding of how Tomiki aikido works as compared to more "circular" aikido systems.

[QUOTE=Larry Camejo;177622]Bob: Great improvements in technique discipline. The only bad thing I saw was similar to what Jeff was doing when entering with hands raised, your attacker was able to sense your intent and movement and shut down your options, causing you to run after him a bit.

Agreed, very difficult to resist chasing uke after initial contact and the raised hands do give away intention and put uke on the defensive. Thanks for the comments on improved discipline. We played some tanto first which helped me to generalize and transfer the skills.

[QUOTE=Larry Camejo;177622] Imho putting the gloves on may have encouraged you guys to try using the more percussive approach to atemi (instead of the full power entering strike/pushes we use) which would result in some of the lighter, impact oriented strikes that had little or no effect on balance.

Yes, the MMA gloves make me want to strike as in sparring instead of focusing on doing atemi waza full bore. Excellent observation. Will have to work harder on that.

[QUOTE=Larry Camejo;177622]Imho I think however you folks should not worry too much about what others believe "looks like Aikido" since most have never seen or used Aikido in a full resistance "fight" type setting (it never resembles kata closely) and also, the vast majority of our (Tomiki/Shodokan) randori waza tend to be quite linear (quite different to what many might believe Aikido to be). Having said this however the core Aiki principles must be there.

Now that is very true. I was bothered initially because so many folks said the same thing: "it doesn't look like aikido". You are right on the money, resistance aikido is much more linear and I am not focusing on those comments anymore. That is really a matter of perception. Instead I'm just trying to get clean atemi waza or hiji waza. Tekubi waza is going to be almost impossible to get on a gloved hand in a traditional sense unless we concentrate on the forearm, not the wrist. Jeff actually can get a modified kotehineri that is effective but still has trouble keeping balance coming out of the turn so it doesn't look "aiki", it probably looks like a twisting jujitsu arm drag to most folks. I am looking into getting heavier padded MMA gloves as they would allow for more tekubi waza as compared to boxing gloves. But as you say: "the core Aiki principles must be kept!" Therein lies the hard work.

[QUOTE=Larry Camejo;177622] We however have no boxing mitts so that should be most interesting.:)

Good luck with that!! Thanks for your comments!

Bob King
05-06-2007, 09:57 PM
[QUOTE=Paul Sanderson-Cimino;177628]
One of my all-time favorite articles on Aikido is the following:

Irimi, by Ellis Amdur
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=686

One of the key ideas I take from this article is that all tenkan begins with irimi. That is, the circular movements begin with a strong, direct thrust in off-line. Only after uke's balance is disrupted do you turn it into a spiraling motion.

Great article, very apropos to our experiment. I'll be thinking about that all week, Paul. Thanks!!!

Dan Austin
05-07-2007, 01:09 AM
[QUOTE=Paul Sanderson-Cimino;177628]
One of my all-time favorite articles on Aikido is the following:

Irimi, by Ellis Amdur
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=686

One of the key ideas I take from this article is that all tenkan begins with irimi. That is, the circular movements begin with a strong, direct thrust in off-line. Only after uke's balance is disrupted do you turn it into a spiraling motion.

Great article, very apropos to our experiment. I'll be thinking about that all week, Paul. Thanks!!!

This is what I was getting at with "take over the space he occupies", and I think it's what people are getting at when they say it visually doesn't look like Aikido. According to the article, tenkan happens if the opponent reacts a certain way to having his center taken, but the clear point is that Irimi is the key. It has to be decisive and disruptive enough that it will affect his center even if he is not strongly committing his center to an attack. Please note again that these comments are not to imply that I or others can do better, only that we aren't seeing that bold and decisive (hopefully in your favor) irimi which should be the main principle. Easier said than done, but again I applaud your willingness to do this and share it.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-07-2007, 11:46 AM
I'll add in, "Study some more boxing technique" while I'm at it.

L. Camejo
05-07-2007, 12:27 PM
One of my all-time favorite articles on Aikido is the following:

Irimi, by Ellis Amdur
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=686

One of the key ideas I take from this article is that all tenkan begins with irimi. That is, the circular movements begin with a strong, direct thrust in off-line. Only after uke's balance is disrupted do you turn it into a spiraling motion.

Great article, very apropos to our experiment. I'll be thinking about that all week, Paul. Thanks!!!Amdur Sensei's article is spot on.

Irimi in aikido occupies space the same way. This, by the way, is the true essence of atemi - not pugilism - but using the body (particularly the limbs) to take space the opponent is trying to occupy.This is precisely what I meant when I spoke about using the penetrating,.balance-taking, blow/throw Shodokan type atemi instead of the percussive type of atemi that you tried with the gloves. Because you are practicing and attempting to maintain a modicum of safety it will be difficult (unsafe) to apply full force impacting atemi that penetrates so that you occupy your attacker's space. A good alternative then is to use the atemi you are accustomed to from our randori method, which is not as impactful/percussive but is very effective at taking the attacker's space and balance. This can also be applied at full power without worrying about the possibility of injury too much.

You indicated that with the MMA gloves on you felt compelled to spar, boxing style with Jeff, which is exactly against what Ellis, I and others have indicated regarding Aikido tactics, irimi and atemi. Imho you should lose the MMA gloves when in the role of Tori/Aikidoka in this case and use the style of atemi that would allow you to go full power without the need of gloves (blow/throw option instead of impacting force blow only option). This will allow you to take your attacker's space much more effectively without having to hold back in your atemi waza. You actually did this once with an aigamae ate in the video.

On tenkan, irimi is very important also. You will see with some of Jeff's attempts at waza you were spun around until you both fell to the ground. This is what happens when irimi is not used before tenkan, both people start orbiting each other until one or both lose balance. When we tenkan correctly however we should be the centre or controlling/anchoring element of the circle or spiral. We get initial control through good irimi.

Just my few cents. Hope it helps.
LC:ai::ki:

Michael Douglas
05-07-2007, 02:28 PM
Only the attacker should wear gloves,
and they should be small.
This will change everything for the better but increase the risk of a bloody nose or chipped tooth. Which is nice.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-07-2007, 02:31 PM
Only the attacker should wear gloves,
and they should be small.
This will change everything for the better but increase the risk of a bloody nose or chipped tooth. Which is nice.

Mouthguards FTW.

Ron Tisdale
05-07-2007, 03:14 PM
In more resistive, sparring environments, and against larger, stronger opponants, I find hiji shime / waki gatami to be your fast friend...but be careful not to send your partner to the bone doc...

Best,
Ron

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-07-2007, 03:21 PM
In more resistive, sparring environments, and against larger, stronger opponants, I find hiji shime / waki gatami to be your fast friend...but be careful not to send your partner to the bone doc...

Best,
Ron

Example: http://tinyurl.com/f6rje
[Warning: Rather nasty imagery.]

Ron Tisdale
05-07-2007, 03:25 PM
uh, yeah....ouch...

B,
R :D

henry brown
05-07-2007, 04:07 PM
You both should get mouthguards and head gear.

Bob King
05-07-2007, 04:07 PM
Example: http://tinyurl.com/f6rje
[Warning: Rather nasty imagery.]

Been present and seen it happen twice with wakigatame in Tomiki shi'ai. Once was just a hard pop and minor dislocation, the other time it fractured the elbow due to a slip and hard lock out. I understand the concept.

Bob King
05-07-2007, 04:10 PM
You both should get mouthguards and head gear.

Head gear is on the wish list, We both have mouth guards but have not bothered to put them in. We will as the pace steps up, guaranteed!

darin
05-07-2007, 09:01 PM
Example: http://tinyurl.com/f6rje
[Warning: Rather nasty imagery.]

We do that movement for kotegaeshi. Good technique for loosening up the wrist.

darin
05-07-2007, 09:37 PM
Because that's a far cry from even amateur MMA competition, let alone the big leagues.

I have to disagree with you there Keith. I have met Mitchi Mochizuki and taken classes with Roy Hebden the technical director of YWF Australia. Really amazing stuff.

The reason I recommended the YWF is because they have successfully blended sword, aiki, karate, judo and weapons into one martial system so you can easily switch from say one fighting technique to another especially when countering techniques. I don't think this strategy is prominent in traditional aikido. In aikido we deal mostly with one attack and finish the technique there and then. Hiro Mochizuki's theory is that its very difficult to just throw or lock someone from say one punch or kick. You have to work your way into it by using strategies such as setting them up with high combination strikes to expose the lower body to a sutemi or simple boxing ones like bobbing in and out to encourage them to take a swing so as to judge distance.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-07-2007, 10:43 PM
We do that movement for kotegaeshi. Good technique for loosening up the wrist.

Interesting. You mean the rotation into the ... how to describe it... kind of locking the elbow against your side? I could see how that might help.

darin
05-07-2007, 10:50 PM
Yes rotating into the elbow and kind of locking it against your side then sharply twist your hips.

Ron Tisdale
05-08-2007, 08:21 AM
The kotegaeshi variant is taught by John Stevens as an off-balancing entry (ura or omote) and then pressing against the elbow with the hips, then tenkan around the arm for kotegaeshi. Very nice...sometimes the push into the locked elbow is sufficient for the throw ala hijiate kokyu nage.

Best,
Ron

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-08-2007, 02:56 PM
I thought I'd also pass along a suggestion I've been hearing here and there: have you thought about tracking down a boxing, kickboxing, or muay thai student for future sessions? Not in the sense of having some sort of "style vs. style" match, or even having them go all-out, but at least getting someone who can "go easy" with correct form.

One analogy I heard was, "Isn't this like boxers putting on hakama and trying to wristlock each other to see how their art fares against aikido?"

skinnymonkey
05-08-2007, 03:05 PM
Hey Paul,

We have actually planned on this. We thought it would be good to get some practice in first tho! Both of us have done some other martial arts (Bob has a lot of experience with arts outside of Aikido) so I don't know if it's EXACTLY like two boxers putting on Hakama... but I get your point.

We know a few "strikers" that we can call on who would have much better form than we are showing. I'd like to get a little more time in to get my head around this before bringing someone else in tho.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Jeff D.

skinnymonkey
09-04-2007, 12:45 PM
It's been a while since we've posted, but we have a new version of Aiki-Boxing out on youtube if anyone is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8ShKpM1Q

Any commentary or suggestions?

Thanks!

Jeff D.
http://www.usaikido.com

Roman Kremianski
09-04-2007, 01:37 PM
When are you guys finally gonna move down to 4 ounce gloves? I mean you got the headgear and the previous experience, so why not...?

Good video, always a fan.

The dude in the white shorts doesn't appear to be as enthusiastic as the one in blue. The blue keeps smacking nage with his free hand, while I noticed white doesn't do anything with it.

Roman Kremianski
09-04-2007, 01:52 PM
Also, I think the biggest problem is that you're just too afraid to get hit. The second guy did some wacky things like turn completely to expose his back, back peddling, running off to the side, shrinking, and just generally trying to avoid punches by instinct. I think maybe some sparring will do good, so you get past that fear of being struck in the face over and over, and focus on redirection and line of attack.

edit: talking about guy in green shirt.

skinnymonkey
09-04-2007, 02:01 PM
Yup... the guy in green is me. I agree that this is helpful to get over that fear. That's why we practice! I really need to get over my tendency to turn my back when I get tired.

The reason we are still using the boxing gloves is that it allows us to attack with a little more speed, but still keep it safe.

Thanks for the input!

Jeff D.

Roman Kremianski
09-04-2007, 02:07 PM
Yeah, you should probably wait until you get hit less and less before switching to 4 ouncers. I mean a few shots (with headgear) from those won't kill you, but better be safe anyway.

Dan Austin
09-04-2007, 11:11 PM
It's been a while since we've posted, but we have a new version of Aiki-Boxing out on youtube if anyone is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8ShKpM1Q

Any commentary or suggestions?

Thanks!

Jeff D.
http://www.usaikido.com

Guys,

This sucks. Hard. Boulders through a straw. ;) But it's a good demonstration because it shows how Aikido training prepares one to deal with even amateurish boxing, which is to say it doesn't prepare one at all.

So let me try to add some constructive criticism. In most cases where you're actually able to grab an arm, it's because the right is being thrown as a haymaker, which means that against proper boxing you would never catch an arm. That's to be expected. You also know it's coming, and even then it's hard to do much with it. You're also doing an elbow shield against a jab, which is overkill. All you're really doing is obscuring your vision so you often don't see the right coming. It would be better to slip the jab or parry it with your right hand, instead of covering your head with your left. By the time you drop your arm to see where he is, you're back at square one.

For the most part, attempting to grab an arm would be suicide. Going for a head manipulation throw is higher percentage, but then you're into clinch work. You're trying to Aikido against sloppy boxing and naturally wind up with sloppy MMA. Now you see why MMA works. ;) With quality boxing and clinch work you could handle these attacks with ease.

Depending on the source, Aikido is 70 - 90% atemi, meaning you have to hit the guy, and the only way to do this in a boxing context is to be a good boxer, draw him to attack you, and counterpunch him. This begs the question of why you would need to then finish with an arm technique, but there you go - forget Aikido and concentrate on boxing if you want to learn aiki. ;)

Michael Douglas
09-05-2007, 05:14 AM
Harsh Dan! Boulders?
... With quality boxing and clinch work you could handle these attacks with ease.
Yeah, it strikes me that just about the best thing to deal with these attacks (specifacally the predictable and repeated jab,jab,right punch, wait) would be some very simple boxing along the lines of slip, slip, one-two, fight over.
The elbow-cover, charge blindly forward, left wrap combination seem to me firstly to be applicable mainly against a known sequence of gentle attacks, and secondly ... not aikido.
...hey don't get me wrong, it's all leading to a fairly effective method of anti-puncher self-defence which is a good thing if that's the aim.

The huge boxing gloves are impeding practice and making realistic development difficult.

The elbow-cover works in fighting, but maybe should be dropped in favour of more aikido defence.

Use ma-ai, surely that's more than half the beauty of aikido.

My last point is a bit wierd but might be the most important : before every session appoint a puncher and an aikido guy and don't change around that day at all, just so you both can get into your roles. Then the aikido guy has to pretend to be a really vicious aikido master like ... Ueshiba. Aim to do what you reckon he would have done. Keep the ice packs handy.

Aristeia
09-05-2007, 06:00 AM
I applaud the intent behind this training. My criticism is that it falls into the same training paradigm trap as much other aikido. i.e. you know excactly what uke is going to do which gives you an unrealistic advantage. Even with that it seems most of the time what is happening is you're waiting for the "boxer" to throw the combo and then applying a technique. In other words assuming that combo is all there is. So in that respect it's not so different to "you punch me then I'll do a technique" -it's just moved to "you punch me a few times then I'll do a technique"

I think in terms of training though its a step in the right direction.

skinnymonkey
09-05-2007, 06:29 AM
Hey Michael,

The first two rounds were done with a jab - jab- hook combo, but the last two were done "freestyle". Neither of us were aware what the other was going to do there.

Thanks for all of the great input everyone!

Jeff D.

phitruong
09-05-2007, 07:11 AM
don't use the elbow shield as a defensive move. just like in the old day, the shield is also an offensive weapon. wait for the hay-maker, step inside the arc and brought up your elbow into a tsuki strike. it would cover your head but also strike the other person shoulder and augmented the impact of his arm swinging. if you aimed right, your elbow will hit the spot where the arm attach to the body, there is a nerve center that will numb his arm for awhile. with the other arm, slide up the other person chest into the chin, step forward for an iriminage. if you want to be nasty, then cut down with the elbowing arm into the other person shoulder at the same time with the iriminage move or doing an iriminage move with the upper cut elbow and drop elbow straight down into the spot where the neck meet the chest (that's my dark side of the force speaking).

don't play into another person advantage such as don't try to out box a boxer or out kick a kickboxer or out wrestle a bjj. to deal with a boxer, you take out his legs. it's ok to sweep his legs. one time saotome sensei put us through a leg sweeping session; it's all very aiki.

maybe you should try to work out simple stuffs first such as what sort of aiki things (I didn't say techniques) you can use against jab, hook, upper cut, ...etc. also, might want to start out with just sliding blocks and move around the other person and notice where the openings are.

just some ideas, don't try it at home. :)

Aran Bright
09-05-2007, 07:33 AM
Good on you for having a go.

Yes to atemi!

You don't have to go the block, block strike back. Try using the block as a strike to enter and take the balance.

When your blocking your standing still then when you do get a grip your leaning to affect a throw not really moving your feet or center, look at any aikido there is no real stopping, always turning. If you can turn and combine with atemi it means the boxer has to punch around your atemi to get to you, that creates openings.

Does that make sense?

skinnymonkey
09-05-2007, 07:45 AM
Dan...

Hard boulders through a straw!?!? Ouch! I appreciate your suggestions. Many of the points you brought up are things that Bob and I discussed as well. Maybe we'll give the Atemi thing more of a shot, since it's been raised several times here.

Phi...

Leg sweeps have also been mentioned. Blok sensei also showed us a few ways to use the knee when moving in to break balance. So much stuff to try to throw in there!

Aran...

Thanks for the suggestions. Movement is always key, and I definitely find myself flatfooted often, One of the many areas I need to work on. Practice, practice, practice!

salim
09-05-2007, 09:08 AM
I'm glad you guys are doing what you are doing. I commend you graciously on your efforts. It's great to see real punches thrown. No matter how amateur, really it's great to see Aikido methods tested against situation that a person might find themselves, in an altercation.

philippe willaume
09-05-2007, 09:12 AM
Guys,

Depending on the source, Aikido is 70 - 90% atemi, meaning you have to hit the guy, and the only way to do this in a boxing context is to be a good boxer, draw him to attack you, and counterpunch him. This begs the question of why you would need to then finish with an arm technique, but there you go - )

Could it be because:
he may or may not keel over due our punches.
a punch is used as much to hit him as it is to enter his space and avoid a tiresome exchange of punches and get us in a good grappling possition.
may be that he could eventually pary our punch.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
09-05-2007, 09:50 AM
If nothing else, it at least provides some ideas for what techniques might be applicable to this situation.

I'm still pretty skeptical of the whole enterprise, for other reasons. But this does suggest it could be doable.

Amir Krause
09-05-2007, 09:51 AM
I started looking for the first minute or so, and stopped, there was nothing new. I can only repeat my previous comments:

You keep trying the same wrong thing - look at the video, you can see his timing, yet you are late. When he attacks, you retreat.

Throughput the time I watched, you did some techniques but not Aikido.

Amir

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
09-05-2007, 10:01 AM
Throughput the time I watched, you did some techniques but not Aikido.

I wouldn't say it quite that strongly -- more like "they found a very narrow range of aikido techniques to be potentially usable in this situation."

Michael Douglas
09-05-2007, 10:26 AM
...The elbow-cover, charge blindly forward, left wrap combination seem to me firstly to be applicable mainly against a known sequence of gentle attacks, and secondly ... not aikido..
Correction!
Arm-wrap to lock aikido alert!
03.42 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Y3WZuUtVo

But you gotta do some spear-hand death-jab at the end...

philippe willaume
09-05-2007, 12:05 PM
Hey Michael,

The first two rounds were done with a jab - jab- hook combo, but the last two were done "freestyle". Neither of us were aware what the other was going to do there.

Thanks for all of the great input everyone!

Jeff D.
Hello, jeff
I think it is a good effort.

With all the caveats due to seeing it in video, my limited experience, all the insight of not being there doing itbut just watching it, and the following being jut an opinion.

From the video you seems to be successful when you are doing a “proper” irimi as you are using you V elbow protection and when you target the elbow .
For me you are already doing the hardest part in that.

The most common cause of failure is that you (as in both of you) try to go for an arm look without any form of isolation of the arm sometime it is made worse by going for the hand first

I think you should try to couple your initial protection (or replace it with and elbow push pin) and a strike to the head/neck (as in a proper strike).
And strike him as if you wanted to follow through with the elbow.

Basically as if you wanted to do the tachi dori when you go ura side put your back hand on the wrist, elbow him and snake you arm around his neck. And then go down stretching is arm and his neck and pressing on hids elbow over you outward knee.

I think it is important to move his head back, because it isolate the arm. And he may give you his arm as he parries your blow. That is a reason why lots of arm bar (trappings the forearm and lifting the elbow) done by the guy in green did not work as well as the worked for you
You created the isolation by the armbar before taking him down

I find it that initially going for irimi nagie/tenchi (and variation of there off) as a follow up of the punch is a good way to keep the pressure and prepare the isolation (arm or head)

Phil

philippe willaume
09-05-2007, 12:14 PM
I started looking for the first minute or so, and stopped, there was nothing new. I can only repeat my previous comments:

You keep trying the same wrong thing - look at the video, you can see his timing, yet you are late. When he attacks, you retreat.

Throughput the time I watched, you did some techniques but not Aikido.

Amir
Hum
that was as insightful as I quickly read the two first word of your message and saw no new words so I assume the rest was rubbish. Or this book is crap, not that I read it but I read the Sunday sport revue.

It is only 8 minutes for the love of God and all available women.
At least have the decency to what it until the end, before telling the man is timing is shiet, it is just common courtesy and you may find that there are a few caveats to that crap timing theory.

phil

Dan Austin
09-05-2007, 09:08 PM
Dan...

Hard boulders through a straw!?!? Ouch! I appreciate your suggestions.

Jeff,

Just messing with you, I wanted to work that line in. ;) Seriously I think you guys are taking an honest look at things and should be commended for that openness. Despite any suggestions from people who think it should be more Aikido-like, the fact is that Aikido did not evolve in the presence of boxing. It's also true that you can't really simulate what "Aikido is 90% atemi" means in practice, because it means you need to stun or otherwise get a strong reaction from uke to have anything else work reliably.

In terms of a simulation what that then boils down to is nage needs to be able to counterpunch uke off of realistic punches. Make him miss until he commits more strongly, or time him or find a pattern and stop-hit him as he begins his shot. In other words wait for him to hand you an opening instead of trying to force something, and when you get that opening you just hit him. To do that requires training boxing, and then using it from an Aikido strategic mindset. What would be most instructive would be for one of you (nage if you're always consistent) to train with a boxing coach for six months. :) Then you can better simulate the requirements of handling a competent puncher. It still won't look like Aikido, but then if you have great aiki and atemi, you probably won't need the other 10% that looks like Aikido. ;)

skinnymonkey
09-06-2007, 07:13 AM
Dan,

Thanks for the great advice. We'll definitely keep that in mind as we progress with this experiment.

Jeff D.

ChrisHein
09-06-2007, 10:51 AM
HAHAHHAHAHAH, I love all the advice from people who are not willing to do the practice themselves.

"Uhm, Jeff, you know if you'd just do it this way"; why not just post a video of you doing it your way, and we can all learn.

From personal experience, the stuff these guys are trying is hard. If they ever get it to work right, it will likely take years. I also doubt that intellectualism is going to help much here. Experience, yes, untried theories, likely no. If you’ve got a great theory try it, I’m sure we’d all love to see what you’ve come up with.

The videos are changing. You guys are getting better, however it is also starting to look more and more like other conventional systems of unarmed martial arts. Akin to what Jason Deluca is up to.

skinnymonkey
09-06-2007, 01:21 PM
Hey Chris,

It is feeling better, but you are right about it starting to look a little different than traditional aikido when done in this way. However, there is an interesting video on youtube

http://youtube.com/watch?v=z1mC6XDXL5Y

Looks like it's from the 40s or something, but if you fast forward to about the 6:30 mark, you will see an interesting bout between Tohei and some big American. What is interesting to me is that the bout is very sloppy and tends to lock up a lot. In those kinds of situations, I don't think there is any way to avoid that.

I don't mind the philosophical suggestions. I have been trying to keep many of those things in mind during practice, but it can be tough in the heat of the moment... which is why we practice!

I wouldn't mind seeing some other vids of attempts at this kind of thing tho.

Thanks,

Jeff D.

salim
09-06-2007, 04:04 PM
HAHAHHAHAHAH, I love all the advice from people who are not willing to do the practice themselves.

"Uhm, Jeff, you know if you'd just do it this way"; why not just post a video of you doing it your way, and we can all learn.

From personal experience, the stuff these guys are trying is hard. If they ever get it to work right, it will likely take years. I also doubt that intellectualism is going to help much here. Experience, yes, untried theories, likely no. If you've got a great theory try it, I'm sure we'd all love to see what you've come up with.

The videos are changing. You guys are getting better, however it is also starting to look more and more like other conventional systems of unarmed martial arts. Akin to what Jason Deluca is up to.

The realities of an untrained uke is more realistic. A person who is a street fighter, which is more common place than not, will result to the Aikidoist using unconventional tactics to apply Aikido moves.

I would think with all the common knowledge that has been shared from Mixed Martial Arts, that the traditionalist mindset would not be such that it would cause a person not to observe self defense tactics clearly.

Roman Kremianski
09-06-2007, 05:05 PM
The realities of an untrained uke is more realistic.

Practicing with a trained uke will make you better against an untrained opponent. Train with someone throwing tight crosses and hooks, and all the sudden that wild haymaker of the untrained uke will appear more telegraphic and easier to avoid.

ChrisHein
09-06-2007, 06:38 PM
Hey Chris,

It is feeling better, but you are right about it starting to look a little different than traditional aikido when done in this way. However, there is an interesting video on youtube

http://youtube.com/watch?v=z1mC6XDXL5Y

Looks like it's from the 40s or something, but if you fast forward to about the 6:30 mark, you will see an interesting bout between Tohei and some big American. What is interesting to me is that the bout is very sloppy and tends to lock up a lot. In those kinds of situations, I don't think there is any way to avoid that.

I don't mind the philosophical suggestions. I have been trying to keep many of those things in mind during practice, but it can be tough in the heat of the moment... which is why we practice!

I wouldn't mind seeing some other vids of attempts at this kind of thing tho.

Thanks,

Jeff D.

I remember seeing that video early on in my Aikido career, and being pretty excited about it.

You are right about the "lock ups", and that is just an expectable part of unarmed martial arts.

The exciting question to me is, why doesn't Aikido train us to deal with these kinds of unarmed "lock ups" if they are so common?

Perhaps because Aikido was never meant to be used as an unarmed martial art...

Dan Austin
09-06-2007, 09:53 PM
Looks like it's from the 40s or something, but if you fast forward to about the 6:30 mark, you will see an interesting bout between Tohei and some big American. What is interesting to me is that the bout is very sloppy and tends to lock up a lot. In those kinds of situations, I don't think there is any way to avoid that.


Yikes. And Tohei is one of the bigwigs in Aikido. Well, that tears it completely, Aikido simply has no training or technique to address modern fighting. The American clearly had nothing, yet they even toppled to the mat at one point. With any kind of wrestling it would have been a rout. The only thing I think can be taken from Aikido is the defensive countering mindset, which also has a solid legal basis for self-defense. The techniques themselves are inadequate even for street hacks unless they're so drunk they can't see straight. Against anyone with the slightest boxing, wrestling, or streetfighting experience (in other words 100% of meaningful opponents) they're simply useless and a waste of time to train.

Roman Kremianski
09-06-2007, 11:59 PM
Perhaps because Aikido was never meant to be used as an unarmed martial art...

Isn't that what O-Sensei kept saying on a regular basis?

ChrisHein
09-07-2007, 01:16 AM
Isn't that what O-Sensei kept saying on a regular basis?

That could be taken one of two ways.

philippe willaume
09-07-2007, 04:10 AM
I remember seeing that video early on in my Aikido career, and being pretty excited about it.
You are right about the "lock ups", and that is just an expectable part of unarmed martial arts.
The exciting question to me is, why doesn't Aikido train us to deal with these kinds of unarmed "lock ups" if they are so common?

does it not?
you have form where the guy do grab you at both wrist, and both shoulder. from the front. grabing both elbow or one elbow and stiking is a variation of what we call 3rd form.
and you work from static, dynamic, and ki no nogare.

i understan that our systen may be a bit more formalised that other places, but our basic 16 form of "attack" have to come from somewhere.


Perhaps because Aikido was never meant to be used as an unarmed martial art...

I am not sure that it not meant to be an unramed martial art, I would say that it is geared toward an environment where weapon are readilly
and i bears similitude to medieval ringen (wrestling, grapling whatever you want to call it) where weapons avaliability and possible friend intervention where a given.

phil

philippe willaume
09-07-2007, 04:33 AM
Practicing with a trained uke will make you better against an untrained opponent. Train with someone throwing tight crosses and hooks, and all the sudden that wild haymaker of the untrained uke will appear more telegraphic and easier to avoid.

Amen to that

dalen7
09-07-2007, 08:43 AM
OP's example is so-so. 5/10.

Here is an example of a good Aiki-Boxing or whatyourmacallit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhNKMqlSzcI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebullshido%2Enet%2Fforums%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D54004

Look at 1' 44" for a whoop-ass good kokyu-shomen-ate combo.

Boon.

to bad...post by Ledyard Sensei got me interested in this link, but it was taken down by youtube it seems. - Im quite interested in the concept of aiki-boxing.

Peace

PeterR
09-07-2007, 08:45 AM
Terms of use violation - wonder what that was about?

skinnymonkey
09-07-2007, 09:09 AM
This is the vid that Ledyard sensei was referring to.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V4DJQjYX_as

We talked to him about this idea of "entering" even when backing up in our podcast. This was one of the examples he was talking about. Very interesting stuff.

http://www.usaikido.com

Jeff D.

PeterR
09-07-2007, 09:14 AM
Now I understand why it was removed - I thought the aiki-boxing clips were taken down.

salim
09-07-2007, 09:15 AM
This is the vid that Ledyard sensei was referring to.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V4DJQjYX_as

We talked to him about this idea of "entering" even when backing up in our podcast. This was one of the examples he was talking about. Very interesting stuff.

http://www.usaikido.com

Jeff D.
Great clip of Aiki methods. Reality is something.

ChrisHein
09-07-2007, 10:29 AM
That is a great clip. However that isn't the way we train Aikido either.

Ron Tisdale
09-07-2007, 10:49 AM
sweet.

B,
R

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 11:02 AM
Sorry, but I can't resist...

I noticed he didn't go to the floor to grapple :D

Regards,

PeterR
09-07-2007, 11:12 AM
Sorry, but I can't resist...

I noticed he didn't go to the floor to grapple :D

Regards,

Would you - so many angry people. :D

wildaikido
09-07-2007, 11:17 AM
Would you - so many angry people. :D

NEVER! :D



I shouldn't type this but my poor sense of humour is making me...



Lets see a BJJer deal with em :p



I am soooo sorry, please understand I am weak willed :(

mjchip
09-07-2007, 03:14 PM
Without a doubt some of the BEST randori footage I've ever seen!

Mark

Aikibu
09-07-2007, 05:35 PM
"In Aikido The fight is over at the moment of contact."

Shoji Nishio Shihan

:D

William Hazen

I'll bet that dude knows what Randori means. LOL

Dan Austin
09-07-2007, 08:52 PM
This is the vid that Ledyard sensei was referring to.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V4DJQjYX_as

We talked to him about this idea of "entering" even when backing up in our podcast. This was one of the examples he was talking about. Very interesting stuff.

http://www.usaikido.com

Jeff D.

LOL. This is *exactly* what I was getting at, and the idea that this clip supports Aikido is incredibly funny. Anyone who wants to claim this on behalf of Aikido has been swilling the KoolAid far too long. ;) Logic along the lines of "this is aiki, Aikido is about aiki, and I do Aikido...therefore I can do this!" is just delusional. This is boxing, not Aikido. Aikido training is about as far removed from boxing as possible. Training ikkyos and whatnot against meaningless attacks in no way prepares you to do this, training in boxing gives you this skill, hence my prior recommendation to train with a boxing coach. If you get grappled, wrestling will effectively teach you to counter any attempts to grapple you. If you do wind up on the ground, submissions training will allow you to defend yourself and get back on your feet. In other words MMA is the body of modern effective fighting technique and training methods that develops real skill, the only thing Aikido brings to the table is the defensive mindset - which doesn't require any ongoing training in an Aikido school to do.

Ueshiba's revelation was not to resist, contend, and outcompete, but to take the openings presented by being attacked. He who attacks opens himself to be countered in doing so, and should be shown the error of breaking harmony with the universe as it were. In theory. This is also a sound legal basis for self-defense, and is commendable. However the important thing to note is that Ueshiba traveled Japan and became an accomplished martial artist prior to reaching a more mature and meaningful understanding of martial art. Emulating him today would entail doing the same, which means embracing MMA as the gold standard syllabus of realistic unarmed technique and training method. The standard Aikido syllabus today is practically worthless in addressing modern hand to hand fighting. The title of this thread is apt - aiki-boxing is what Aikido should be, but isn't. You can't have an art whose execution depends 90% on atemi, spend 0% of your time training realistic atemi, and expect a good result. Unless you spend 90% of your training time boxing, the 90% atemi just isn't going to happen for you.

Bob King
09-07-2007, 10:08 PM
Thanks to all who have continued to watch and comment on our practice sessions. Especially those who bothered to watch the whole thing! :D And the comment about "putting your video where your ideas are" is a comment I very much agree with, please do take the time to show Jeff and I how to implement your suggestions by taking some time to put some tape down and post it on the Tube. I look forward to seeing someone else try this.

What I continually realize is how much more I can learn to make my martial arts better and more effective. I do a lot of training others in crisis intervention where atemi is not allowed (legal), where all you can do is take shots until you have an opportunity to try and control someone with minimal force or damage. So I try to use the aiki-boxing as an opportunity to test my reactions in this setting so I can help others protect themselves. The elbow cover was a suggestion from Kevin Blok sensei of Chudokai (Yoshinkai), and that was the reason we were using it much more in this session. I've also worked that block often in my BJJ/combative JJ training with the Chitwood Brothers here in Mansfield. As to why we don't grapple is because we are specifically training in stand up work, not ground techniques.

Thanks again to all for their comments and suggestions, keep 'em coming and we'll keep posting video!

Roman Kremianski
09-07-2007, 10:32 PM
Dan Austin basically beat me to it.

How much do you people know about the guy in the video? What is his experience and what did he train in? I just don't get why people are claiming him as their poster aiki boy, listing off the sweet ass aikido moves he pulled off, and calling it a great "randori". Looked to me like the guy had quite a bit of sparring knowledge under his belt.

Robert: I back you. A lot of theories are being posted here. Anyone willing to experiment?

Dan Austin
09-07-2007, 11:41 PM
I do a lot of training others in crisis intervention where atemi is not allowed (legal), where all you can do is take shots until you have an opportunity to try and control someone with minimal force or damage. So I try to use the aiki-boxing as an opportunity to test my reactions in this setting so I can help others protect themselves.

In that case Greco clinchwork a la Randy Couture is the ticket, e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC_3ed_mB6Q

You guys wound up in a couple of tie-ups which is exactly what you want if you are trying to control a boxing attack (which is the normal attack people use) without hitting back or getting clocked. From a dominant underhook position you can also control the head, and have a much easier time transitioning into takedowns and controls, including capturing the arm you have underhooked. Couture has dominated strikers in MMA with his clinch skills, this is precisely the ticket for your scenario. His videos are uniformly good, and his new book Wrestling for Fighting is solid as well. Finding a local wrestling club would be key as well.

In any case, arm control straight off a punch will rarely ever work, as you've noticed, while getting a dominant clinch position and going from there will definitely work. The only reliable way to reduce the degrees of freedom a puncher has standing up, while keeping the fight standing, is to clinch. As a matter of fact the Straight Blast Gym clinch video shows an entry off the very elbow shield you're using. Instead of blocking the cross and coming over the arm to wrap it (which seems natural but which would hand the underhook to uke, if he knew to do it, which would then prevent you being able to do the whizzer/crank you were doing), you block and then shoot your arm under to get the deep underhook position Couture shows (grab the opponent's front deltoid) and with your right hand stiff-arm his head and crank him over to your right and down, in position as if to prepare to knee him in the head. You can improvise control moves from there, particularly with his arm caught against your neck and shoulder.

Edit: here's an example of going in for the underhook: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WC8Lh8k-Ic&mode=related&search=

Aikibu
09-07-2007, 11:45 PM
LOL. This is *exactly* what I was getting at, and the idea that this clip supports Aikido is incredibly funny. Anyone who wants to claim this on behalf of Aikido has been swilling the KoolAid far too long. ;) Logic along the lines of "this is aiki, Aikido is about aiki, and I do Aikido...therefore I can do this!" is just delusional. This is boxing, not Aikido. Aikido training is about as far removed from boxing as possible. Training ikkyos and whatnot against meaningless attacks in no way prepares you to do this, training in boxing gives you this skill, hence my prior recommendation to train with a boxing coach. If you get grappled, wrestling will effectively teach you to counter any attempts to grapple you. If you do wind up on the ground, submissions training will allow you to defend yourself and get back on your feet. In other words MMA is the body of modern effective fighting technique and training methods that develops real skill, the only thing Aikido brings to the table is the defensive mindset - which doesn't require any ongoing training in an Aikido school to do.

Ueshiba's revelation was not to resist, contend, and outcompete, but to take the openings presented by being attacked. He who attacks opens himself to be countered in doing so, and should be shown the error of breaking harmony with the universe as it were. In theory. This is also a sound legal basis for self-defense, and is commendable. However the important thing to note is that Ueshiba traveled Japan and became an accomplished martial artist prior to reaching a more mature and meaningful understanding of martial art. Emulating him today would entail doing the same, which means embracing MMA as the gold standard syllabus of realistic unarmed technique and training method. The standard Aikido syllabus today is practically worthless in addressing modern hand to hand fighting. The title of this thread is apt - aiki-boxing is what Aikido should be, but isn't. You can't have an art whose execution depends 90% on atemi, spend 0% of your time training realistic atemi, and expect a good result. Unless you spend 90% of your training time boxing, the 90% atemi just isn't going to happen for you.

Yaaaaaaawn. So many generalizations... about Aikido... It's ineffectiveness.... how it doesn't work.... Counter punching not Aikido Blah Blah Blah...

Check out a few more Vids there Dan...You'll See some amazing simlarities between Ueshiba... Shioda... Yamada... Saito... Hendricks... Nishio...Tanaka... and on and on do EXACTLY the same thing this guy did only they call it Randori...

If your Aikido SUCKS it's not AIKIDO's fault. Somehow the guy faces an angry crowd and he's supposed to keep his hands down... block instead of avoid punches... throw a few kicks... not back up and create space/openings????

Last but not least Here you are touting O'Sensei's experiance before he developed Modern Aikido on the one hand.... and on the other hand you blame the very SAME Syllabus as a reason for Aikido's ineffectiveness..... Also you don't take into account How his Modern Era Students took what he gave them and refined and advanced that same Syllabus???

Make up your mind Dan... You can't have it both ways...You toss your whole argument out the window with that premise... The proverbial "Baby with the Bath Water."

I have been around a long time and have heard these very same "arguments" over and over again...

Randy Couture is a GOD!!!

In conclusion your view of Aikido and it's various flavors is limited at best...Our Aikido is measured by how effective it is against other Martial Arts There are other flavors that use the exact same measurement.

You need to get out more my brother....:)

If your "Standard Aikido Syllabus" Sucks you're not practicing hard enough...Go find a Teacher that sets a better example. I can think of at least a Dozen right off the top of my head.

William Hazen

Dan Austin
09-07-2007, 11:54 PM
Last but not least Here you are touting O'Sensei's experiance before he developed Modern Aikido on the one hand.... and on the other hand you blame the very SAME Syllabus as a reason for Aikido's ineffectiveness.....

YAWN. Another steadfast Aikidoka. ;) Yes, the syllabus is impractical and outdated. People don't fight the way Aikido trains. Maybe they used to in turn of the century Japan, but not here and now. But keep drinkin' that KoolAid. ;) Then again Random and Pointless Capitalization might be a Symptom of Overdose, so it might be Wise to take a breather. ;)

Roman Kremianski
09-08-2007, 12:27 AM
Oh dear...

Aikibu
09-08-2007, 10:22 AM
YAWN. Another steadfast Aikidoka. ;) Yes, the syllabus is impractical and outdated. People don't fight the way Aikido trains. Maybe they used to in turn of the century Japan, but not here and now. But keep drinkin' that KoolAid. ;) Then again Random and Pointless Capitalization might be a Symptom of Overdose, so it might be Wise to take a breather. ;)

What syllabus are you reffering too Dan??? Nishio...Shodokan...Tomiki...Yosheinkan...Hombu...Iwama...
Obata...Ki...Last I counted there are over 20... all of them rooted in Aikido

I see how you avoid my question by attacking me personally....

To me that simply means you don't have an answer Which kind of infers that your premise that "The Syllabus is outdated"... is based on ignorance and inexperiance...

It's ok with me bro...Folks often post thier opinions without any cohesive/coherent arguments to back them up. I have done it on occasion myself.We call it where I come from a "Logical Fallacy"... LOL :D

Come to the next Aiki-Expo Friendship Demo where you'll meet Yudansha of all Aikido Styles and Backgrounds and be givin the opportunity to explain yourself. :)

In the recent past we have had many people say exactly the same things about the "Syllabus"...The simple answer is to have them demonstrate exactly what they mean. In other words walking the walk... not just talking the talk...

Just ask Mark Tennenhouse....LOL

Me why I'll just keep practicing hard...Cross Training in other Arts to expand my experiance of Shoji Nishio's Aikido and not worry too much about Ad Hominums on the "intranets" :)

William Hazen

Dan Austin
09-08-2007, 10:46 AM
OK William, since you imply that you can do it better than the gentlemen who have posted their videos, why not post a video of yourself doing so? Heck, let's make it even easier - since you say you can rattle off a dozen names of uber-Aikidoka, surely you can find video of them that would impress the laity here as somehow not being a cooperative affair? Let's lower the bar even further, how about a link to ANY video that shows what you believe is an effective and valid demo of Aikido against uncooperative attacks?

You see, the empty statements (and burden of proof) are on the side of those claiming Aikido is effective relative to other arts. All the logic and empirical evidence is on the side of believing that cooperative training is not an efficient means to develop real ability, and techniques that rely on capturing arms and manipulating them are low percentage except against staggering drunks.

As far as I'm concerned people can do what they like, but I think its disingenuous and unethical to give people, particularly martial newbies, the impression that Aikido training will give them good ability to defend themselves. Other than that, have at it.

So, keep on crosstraining so that you have something you can actually use if you need to. ;) In the meantime I'll start the cricket chirping soundtrack as we wait for you to post the video links...chirp...chirp...chirp..... ;)

L. Camejo
09-08-2007, 11:39 AM
This thread has gone from interesting to hilarious to sad of late.

Jeff and Bob. You guys are getting better at this and once again I applaud your efforts. It's interesting and sometimes painful to hear the theories of those who have never faced a serious threat to their life and have come out alive. Imho one experience of this can fix a lifetime of delusion.

I'm happy that you guys are trying to sift delusion from reality through training and practice. As for the video, the elbow block worked nicely only when used in conjunction with good Irimi. It is critical to close distance during any opening in the boxer's defence. Blocking and standing there is not good. In many of the clips, the elbow block and crouch placed one in precise striking distance for a roundhouse to the face/head, which would probably end the fight if we were dealing with muay thai or thai boxing. As said elsewhere, good use of ma ai, peripheral vision and deep entering without fear of being hit will assist in your applications overall. Also, if you attempt to create kuzushi of any type at the instant of contact with the attacker you should have improved results. In most cases loss of footing was a direct result of using too much upper body strength. You have to let your core, hips and legs generate the power for you. Use the spine and arms as conduits. Good posture and tegatana are your friends.

Things to avoid once again are turning of the back, defending/blocking too much (when we use Sen timing Aikido becomes a very aggressive MA, nothing defensive about it) and trying to trade punches. I'll reiterate that trying to use a boxing tactical set will ensure that you play the boxer's game, and if he is better at it than you, then you will always come up short. Aikido is about maximizing the weaknesses in every strategy. I think your plan is to develop Aikido responses, if this is the case you need to seriously study what the Aikido tactical approach offers and how it addresses the boxer's approach, then work on the physical skills required to apply it (this is the hard part). Entering and passing drills using boxing attacks may be a start.

I was hoping to have some vids for you by now. My apologies, it's hard to find folks who are willing to get injured to prove a theory :). My approach will minimize the degree of protection to allow the instinctive aspects of the Aikido approach to kick in due to necessity. It's difficult to balance safety with realism in these things. I'm thinking about Blauer Tactical Suits as a possible (but pricey) option. Roman gave a good idea early on regarding the reduction of the glove weight imho.

Keep up the good work. Hopefully one day I can come visit you guys and help in person.

LC:ai::ki:

Aikibu
09-08-2007, 12:34 PM
OK William, since you imply that you can do it better than the gentlemen who have posted their videos, why not post a video of yourself doing so? Heck, let's make it even easier - since you say you can rattle off a dozen names of uber-Aikidoka, surely you can find video of them that would impress the laity here as somehow not being a cooperative affair? Let's lower the bar even further, how about a link to ANY video that shows what you believe is an effective and valid demo of Aikido against uncooperative attacks?

You see, the empty statements (and burden of proof) are on the side of those claiming Aikido is effective relative to other arts. All the logic and empirical evidence is on the side of believing that cooperative training is not an efficient means to develop real ability, and techniques that rely on capturing arms and manipulating them are low percentage except against staggering drunks.

As far as I'm concerned people can do what they like, but I think its disingenuous and unethical to give people, particularly martial newbies, the impression that Aikido training will give them good ability to defend themselves. Other than that, have at it.

So, keep on crosstraining so that you have something you can actually use if you need to. ;) In the meantime I'll start the cricket chirping soundtrack as we wait for you to post the video links...chirp...chirp...chirp..... ;)

Again attacking me personally does nothing to further your argument. I have been in more than a few fights Aikido worked just fine for me. The next time I get into it with somebody I'll ask if we can film it. LOL

No matter how you feel about me personally the fact remains that you're all talk and have done nothing to prove your argument. You good at quoting negative generalizations about "capturing arms and cooperative training" and some of those can be valid depending on the arguement... But I have heard all that before and those I have invited to demonstrate what they mean did not need to "provide a video" they just had to show up. Some actually have, and all were surprised to learn there is much more to Aikido than meets the eye.

So there you have it...In the days before You Tube if we had a question about a Sensei's Technique we just crashed his Dojo and took a class. After the class most were polite enough to stand me on my head or knock me out if I asked nicely enough. :D Nowadays we have Stan's Expo's among others, where folks can come and walk the walk and experiance it for themselves.

When I started Aikido I had only one Criteria. Can the instructor kick my ass in a fight? After decades of Karate, Judo, Boxing, and the like I had heard about Aikido and checked out quite a few Styles until I came upon my present one.

So Mr. Tennenhouse errr ahh Mr. Austin....Put your money where your mouth is. If Aikido is that bad then I hope you take upon yourself to go to every Aikido Dojo out there in Texas and warn the students they're being fooled...You would be doing them a service, and as long as you were prepared to demonstrate exactly what you mean then perhaps some folks might actually listen.

Your keyboard is a piss poor substitute for reality Dan.

William Hazen

Aikibu
09-08-2007, 12:38 PM
This thread has gone from interesting to hilarious to sad of late.

Jeff and Bob. You guys are getting better at this and once again I applaud your efforts. It's interesting and sometimes painful to hear the theories of those who have never faced a serious threat to their life and have come out alive. Imho one experience of this can fix a lifetime of delusion.

I'm happy that you guys are trying to sift delusion from reality through training and practice. As for the video, the elbow block worked nicely only when used in conjunction with good Irimi. It is critical to close distance during any opening in the boxer's defence. Blocking and standing there is not good. In many of the clips, the elbow block and crouch placed one in precise striking distance for a roundhouse to the face/head, which would probably end the fight if we were dealing with muay thai or thai boxing. As said elsewhere, good use of ma ai, peripheral vision and deep entering without fear of being hit will assist in your applications overall. Also, if you attempt to create kuzushi of any type at the instant of contact with the attacker you should have improved results. In most cases loss of footing was a direct result of using too much upper body strength. You have to let your core, hips and legs generate the power for you. Use the spine and arms as conduits. Good posture and tegatana are your friends.

Things to avoid once again are turning of the back, defending/blocking too much (when we use Sen timing Aikido becomes a very aggressive MA, nothing defensive about it) and trying to trade punches. I'll reiterate that trying to use a boxing tactical set will ensure that you play the boxer's game, and if he is better at it than you, then you will always come up short. Aikido is about maximizing the weaknesses in every strategy. I think your plan is to develop Aikido responses, if this is the case you need to seriously study what the Aikido tactical approach offers and how it addresses the boxer's approach, then work on the physical skills required to apply it (this is the hard part). Entering and passing drills using boxing attacks may be a start.

I was hoping to have some vids for you by now. My apologies, it's hard to find folks who are willing to get injured to prove a theory :). My approach will minimize the degree of protection to allow the instinctive aspects of the Aikido approach to kick in due to necessity. It's difficult to balance safety with realism in these things. I'm thinking about Blauer Tactical Suits as a possible (but pricey) option. Roman gave a good idea early on regarding the reduction of the glove weight imho.

Keep up the good work. Hopefully one day I can come visit you guys and help in person.

LC:ai::ki:

An excellent evaluation of the Video. I sure hope I get to a class of your one of these days. :)

William Hazen

skinnymonkey
09-08-2007, 03:06 PM
Camejo Sensei... Those are great points and great insight. We'll definitely try to keep those points in mind next time we try this.

It can definitely be tough to find people willing to take that kind of abuse... luckily, Bob and I are both a little crazy!

I really would love to see some vids someday. Hopefully you can find someone crazy enough (and still keep it safe for all involved).

We are always open to meeting a learning from others! It would be great to find a way to get together and train. Our doors are always open!

Thanks again for the great suggestions.

L. Camejo
09-08-2007, 07:26 PM
William: I must admit you have me most impressed by your posts generally. I'd love to come train in Nishio style with you guys some time. I'm sure I'll learn something new.

Jeff: Thanks for the kind remarks. Something to think about during your next session. It was posted before by William:

"In Aikido The fight is over at the moment of contact."

Shoji Nishio Shihan If you can embody this in your Aikido the boxer (or anyone else) will not be a problem. But it takes deep study into how to make these things physically possible and then devising appropriate training methods and drills. Use of Sen is very important.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Bob King
09-08-2007, 07:45 PM
Larry,

Thanks for your comments, as usual very insightful. Sorry you didn't make the World Games in August, hope we can make it to Trinidad and Tobago to see you!!! Heard that Shisihda was there in 2006 after he spent time in Vassar.

Bob

ChrisHein
09-08-2007, 08:26 PM
Funny thing is that yes the principal of Aiki is useable in all venues of physical (and sometimes nonphysical) interaction.

But the techniques that we learn in aikido are not so universal.

L. Camejo
09-09-2007, 07:26 AM
Larry,

Thanks for your comments, as usual very insightful. Sorry you didn't make the World Games in August, hope we can make it to Trinidad and Tobago to see you!!! Heard that Shisihda was there in 2006 after he spent time in Vassar.

Bob
Hi Bob,

My doors are welcome to all to come and train. We're lucky to have had some very skilled Aikidoka pass through our dojo from a few different styles.

We really tried to make it to Ohio in August, but financing was just not there. My original Sensei was there though, he was part of the UK squad. They won the Kongo Dantaisen I think.

Yes, Shishida spent 2 weeks with us down here, but it was in 2004.
We have a small group here so the sessions with Shishida were very much like personal tutoring. The insights gained from him caused a quantum leap in my training I think. It was through him I got a better idea of how the whole core power/spinal alignment/use of tegatana concept works. The difference in precision, control and power generated through waza is quite interesting.

On a related note to your Aiki boxing tests, we train regularly with the local Kendo group. It has improved our sword handling skills and understanding greatly overall, and also gives the Kendoka an idea of how the sword and empty hand correlate in the execution of unarmed Aikido waza. We also did some bokken disarms with them (kata style of course). They got very intrigued with that so this week we plan on doing some resistance freeplay with them, using some protection. It may take the form of freestyle empty hand vs shinai (i.e. shinai dori) or shinai shiai (we haven't decided yet). It should give some good insights since we will be dealing with Kendo black belts who know how to use a shinai or bokken quite well.

Will try to tape it and let you know if we survive. :)
LC:ai::ki:

Aikibu
09-09-2007, 10:16 AM
William: I must admit you have me most impressed by your posts generally. I'd love to come train in Nishio style with you guys some time. I'm sure I'll learn something new.

Jeff: Thanks for the kind remarks. Something to think about during your next session. It was posted before by William:
If you can embody this in your Aikido the boxer (or anyone else) will not be a problem. But it takes deep study into how to make these things physically possible and then devising appropriate training methods and drills. Use of Sen is very important.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Thank you Larry...The feeling is mutual. I always enjoy the Shodokan perspective you and Peter R. :)

I think that our flavors of Aikido have much in common.

William Hazen

P.S. Do you know any Shodokan Aikido Yudansha out here in L.A. that you would reccomend?

PeterR
09-09-2007, 10:25 AM
P.S. Do you know any Shodokan Aikido Yudansha out here in L.A. that you would reccomend?

Hmm - the guy to ask would be Bob King - one of the people in the aiki-boxing clips. I saw his Yondan test in front of Nariyama Shihan about 7 years (?) ago. He would be much more up on who is where in the US - Shodokan wise.

Dan Austin
09-09-2007, 10:33 AM
Again attacking me personally does nothing to further your argument.

William,

All I did was poke fun at your capitalization quirks; now I think you are just using this to avoid answering any substantive questions. Poor you, so picked on...let's stick to the facts shall we?

I have been in more than a few fights Aikido worked just fine for me. The next time I get into it with somebody I'll ask if we can film it. LOL

So you say. Even if true, a sample of one is meaningless. I also note that while you told Dalen to train one thing at a time, you yourself crosstrain and apparently call it Aikido. In any case you are still avoiding giving meaningful answers, which I predicted.



No matter how you feel about me personally the fact remains that you're all talk and have done nothing to prove your argument.


I'm not interested in you personally, I continue the conversation for the benefit of people like Dalen who deserve a spectrum of honest views to evaluate. Furthermore I cannot prove a negative. I can't put together a video proving that Aikido doesn't work, but all you need to do is provide one decent example that it does. The empirical evidence is all on the side of cooperative training being a poor means of preparing for a competitive endeavor. You are the one saying it isn't so. You in effect claim the moon is made of green cheese, and if I don't believe you, I should build a rocket ship and go visit it. Doesn't work that way. The burden of proof is on you to provide something that makes an outlandish claim the least bit believable. As predicted, you have nothing to back up your fan worship of the super-Aikido teachers you admire.

So there you have it...In the days before You Tube if we had a question about a Sensei's Technique we just crashed his Dojo and took a class.

Well, these aren't the days before YouTube. :) And *I* don't have any questions. I have never seen Aikido that compares favorably to competitive combat arts. I already know what sort of training leads to functional skill, and it is common sense. You are claiming something that is not common sense. You might fool a Dalen into visiting someone who seems impressive, but impressing newbies is easy. He needs a base of competitive combat training to evaluate a teacher and a teaching method. If he just goes to one of your recommendations he'll likely be swilling KoolAid in no time, and asking the same question years later. ;)


So Mr. Tennenhouse errr ahh Mr. Austin....Put your money where your mouth is. If Aikido is that bad then I hope you take upon yourself to go to every Aikido Dojo out there in Texas and warn the students they're being fooled...You would be doing them a service, and as long as you were prepared to demonstrate exactly what you mean then perhaps some folks might actually listen.

I can't help people without any sense, and I only talk for the benefit of those who ask questions. I don't want to impose my view or piss in anyone's KoolAid if they're enjoying it. ;)

gregg block
09-09-2007, 12:01 PM
William,

All I did was poke fun at your capitalization quirks; now I think you are just using this to avoid answering any substantive questions. Poor you, so picked on...let's stick to the facts shall we?

So you say. Even if true, a sample of one is meaningless. I also note that while you told Dalen to train one thing at a time, you yourself crosstrain and apparently call it Aikido. In any case you are still avoiding giving meaningful answers, which I predicted.

I'm not interested in you personally, I continue the conversation for the benefit of people like Dalen who deserve a spectrum of honest views to evaluate. Furthermore I cannot prove a negative. I can't put together a video proving that Aikido doesn't work, but all you need to do is provide one decent example that it does. The empirical evidence is all on the side of cooperative training being a poor means of preparing for a competitive endeavor. You are the one saying it isn't so. You in effect claim the moon is made of green cheese, and if I don't believe you, I should build a rocket ship and go visit it. Doesn't work that way. The burden of proof is on you to provide something that makes an outlandish claim the least bit believable. As predicted, you have nothing to back up your fan worship of the super-Aikido teachers you admire.

Well, these aren't the days before YouTube. :) And *I* don't have any questions. I have never seen Aikido that compares favorably to competitive combat arts. I already know what sort of training leads to functional skill, and it is common sense. You are claiming something that is not common sense. You might fool a Dalen into visiting someone who seems impressive, but impressing newbies is easy. He needs a base of competitive combat training to evaluate a teacher and a teaching method. If he just goes to one of your recommendations he'll likely be swilling KoolAid in no time, and asking the same question years later. ;)

I can't help people without any sense, and I only talk for the benefit of those who ask questions. I don't want to impose my view or piss in anyone's KoolAid if they're enjoying it. ;)

Lot of talk but thats about it. I trained mixed martial arts for years and would never say any style is ineffective. It's practioners who are flawed not styles. Debate some more if you want its all just talk.

Dan Austin
09-09-2007, 01:18 PM
Lot of talk but thats about it. I trained mixed martial arts for years and would never say any style is ineffective. It's practioners who are flawed not styles. Debate some more if you want its all just talk.

Not to repeat myself, but for the record I do not say that Aikido is "ineffective" or can never be used, I said it was inefficient - to the point that many practitioners will never get much in the way of real ability. The old saw about styles not being flawed is simply not true. The man, the training method, and the art all matter. Remove the man from this equation and the training methods and styles are not equally efficient in producing results. That's common sense and empirically obvious - it's the talk denying this that is empty.

salim
09-09-2007, 01:21 PM
William,

All I did was poke fun at your capitalization quirks; now I think you are just using this to avoid answering any substantive questions. Poor you, so picked on...let's stick to the facts shall we?

So you say. Even if true, a sample of one is meaningless. I also note that while you told Dalen to train one thing at a time, you yourself crosstrain and apparently call it Aikido. In any case you are still avoiding giving meaningful answers, which I predicted.

I'm not interested in you personally, I continue the conversation for the benefit of people like Dalen who deserve a spectrum of honest views to evaluate. Furthermore I cannot prove a negative. I can't put together a video proving that Aikido doesn't work, but all you need to do is provide one decent example that it does. The empirical evidence is all on the side of cooperative training being a poor means of preparing for a competitive endeavor. You are the one saying it isn't so. You in effect claim the moon is made of green cheese, and if I don't believe you, I should build a rocket ship and go visit it. Doesn't work that way. The burden of proof is on you to provide something that makes an outlandish claim the least bit believable. As predicted, you have nothing to back up your fan worship of the super-Aikido teachers you admire.

Well, these aren't the days before YouTube. :) And *I* don't have any questions. I have never seen Aikido that compares favorably to competitive combat arts. I already know what sort of training leads to functional skill, and it is common sense. You are claiming something that is not common sense. You might fool a Dalen into visiting someone who seems impressive, but impressing newbies is easy. He needs a base of competitive combat training to evaluate a teacher and a teaching method. If he just goes to one of your recommendations he'll likely be swilling KoolAid in no time, and asking the same question years later. ;)

I can't help people without any sense, and I only talk for the benefit of those who ask questions. I don't want to impose my view or piss in anyone's KoolAid if they're enjoying it. ;)

Dan I agree with you, the realities of self defense for some Aikidoist just makes no sense. Some are quite delusional about realities.

L. Camejo
09-09-2007, 01:55 PM
The man, the training method, and the art all matter. Remove the man from this equation and the training methods and styles are not equally efficient in producing results. That's common sense and empirically obviousI think this is quite true. The problem is that there is no single common training method within "Aikido" not even within the Aikikai which represents the root heritage of Aikido. William indicated as much when he said-
What syllabus are you reffering too Dan??? Nishio...Shodokan...Tomiki...Yosheinkan...Hombu...Iwama...
Obata...Ki...Last I counted there are over 20... all of them rooted in Aikido

In this case one cannot say categorically that "Aikido is/isnot.does/cannot do ...." unless there is a specific qualification about which or whose Aikido one is referring to. There are a few schools of Aikido that use non-competitive practices as a core part of the training method to develop skills that are usable within the self-defence realm. Sadly they by no means represent the "popular" image typically associated with "Aikido."

For myself and my own students it has served quite well repeatedly. There is no question. It has even served quite well in the face of Judo and Jujutsu. But then we do not use a totally cooperative training paradigm in our method.

William: Regarding Shodokan Sensei in the L.A. area Peter is correct. I think Bob is one of the best guys to ask. Alternatively you can check the JAA/USA site here - http://www.tomiki.org/members.html.

Just some thoughts.

LC

Aikibu
09-09-2007, 04:09 PM
William,

All I did was poke fun at your capitalization quirks; now I think you are just using this to avoid answering any substantive questions. Poor you, so picked on...let's stick to the facts shall we?

What facts??? You have yet to present any Dan...You talk about the "Syllabus of Aikido" but you can't discribe what that is much past "cooperative training" and the irony here is be it sparring... Non-Compliant Uke's... or Compliant Uke's... All training between partners is cooprative.... To say otherwise is just plain stupid, and does not reflect any Martial Art on this Planet much less the Moon.. Unless of course you been fed a diet of Chop Sockey/Bloodsport movies where your training partner always dies during practice. LOL

So you say. Even if true, a sample of one is meaningless. I also note that while you told Dalen to train one thing at a time, you yourself crosstrain and apparently call it Aikido. In any case you are still avoiding giving meaningful answers, which I predicted.

Here's a meaningful answer for you. You have no idea what Aikido is so why should you be giving any advice to folks like Dalen? I told Dalen to focus and practice hard, and the answer would become clear to him.

I'm not interested in you personally, I continue the conversation for the benefit of people like Dalen who deserve a spectrum of honest views to evaluate. Furthermore I cannot prove a negative. I can't put together a video proving that Aikido doesn't work, but all you need to do is provide one decent example that it does. The empirical evidence is all on the side of cooperative training being a poor means of preparing for a competitive endeavor. You are the one saying it isn't so. You in effect claim the moon is made of green cheese, and if I don't believe you, I should build a rocket ship and go visit it. Doesn't work that way. The burden of proof is on you to provide something that makes an outlandish claim the least bit believable. As predicted, you have nothing to back up your fan worship of the super-Aikido teachers you admire.

No of course you're not attacking me personally .You're just personally attacking me...That's all your left with.... Talking the Talk. I can't help it if you can't back up what you say with action because you're too lazy to prove your own theories or do your own research. All you've done is pick up on a couple tired old memes passed around since manly men were bold enough to hide behind a keyboard and proclaim entire Martial Systems ineffective based on "anecdotal empiricism" That and avoiding answering any questions by turning the question back at anyone who dares ask you to explain yourself. Again Talking the Talk Dan does not mean you know how to Walk the Walk and this becomes more obvious everytime you post. You don't really have a clue about Aikido do you???

Well, these aren't the days before YouTube. :) And *I* don't have any questions. I have never seen Aikido that compares favorably to competitive combat arts. I already know what sort of training leads to functional skill, and it is common sense. You are claiming something that is not common sense. You might fool a Dalen into visiting someone who seems impressive, but impressing newbies is easy. He needs a base of competitive combat training to evaluate a teacher and a teaching method. If he just goes to one of your recommendations he'll likely be swilling KoolAid in no time, and asking the same question years later. ;)

Dalen has gotton allot of good tips here, some from the folks I reffered to, and you've indirectly insulted have posted.

I can't help people without any sense, and I only talk for the benefit of those who ask questions. I don't want to impose my view or piss in anyone's KoolAid if they're enjoying it. ;)

This paragraph speaks for you perfectly and does not need any additional comment from me.

I trust folks enough to know that they can figure this out for themselves. :)

William Hazen

Aikibu
09-09-2007, 04:22 PM
Hmm - the guy to ask would be Bob King - one of the people in the aiki-boxing clips. I saw his Yondan test in front of Nariyama Shihan about 7 years (?) ago. He would be much more up on who is where in the US - Shodokan wise.

Thanks Peter. I will check him out. :)

William Hazen

akiy
09-09-2007, 04:22 PM
Hi folks,

Please keep the language and tone respectful, even (especially) if you disagree with others here.

Thank you,

-- Jun

Dan Austin
09-09-2007, 04:43 PM
I think this is quite true. The problem is that there is no single common training method within "Aikido" not even within the Aikikai which represents the root heritage of Aikido.

Larry,

I don't have a problem with that, it's difficult to speak concisely and not have people take away different meanings anyway. If someone asks the question, "Is Aikido effective?" they generally are asking whether they will develop a good level of self-defense proficiency for their time invested. Often the most honest answer to this is "probably not", but using the word "ineffective" does not mean "can't ever be used". Anything *can* be used, the question is how reliably for how many practitioners.

That said, of course Aikido is not some monolithic practice. In general however, many if not most Asian martial arts are closely tied to their weapons origins, or for other historical reasons contain a syllabus of techniques that do not correlate well to modern empty hand fighting. Things like rising blocks and reverse punches may be applicable if you're holding or thrusting certain types of weapon, but they are not suitable for dealing with boxing punches that are retracted as quickly as they are thrown. It seems many Aikidoka talk about an "attacker" as someone who literally attacks without regard for minimizing counter attacks. In fact, street attackers either cheat as much as possible to ensure their success, or tend to choose victims they think they can take. Nobody is going to throw a punch that hangs out in space, or simply allow themselves to be countered without fully resisting every effort to control them. In other words dealing with fully resistive boxing and wrestling attacks is the norm, not some rare thing to be discussed once in a blue moon. The obvious arts to deal with those attacks are boxing and wrestling, yet for some reason many people avoid the syllabus that evolved with these attacks in favor of "exotic" Asian approaches to solving a different problem.

So there are two obvious elements, cooperative vs competitive training methods, and the realism of both the attacks and counters. Training Aikido in a more competitive way can be good, but the choice of technique is still paramount. Techniques like kotegaishi have very limited scope and applicability even if trained in a more aggressive manner. If we're wrestling over a jo, great, but for what else?

There are things that can be taken from many Asian martial arts, but if one is honest about the applicability toward common attacks and the need to train them in a competitive way, it's going to look more and more like Western combat than anything classically Asian. People should do what they enjoy, and there are many reasons to enjoy something like Aikido, but what is really the point of even trying to make something derived from Japanese sword work into a Western combat art?

salim
09-09-2007, 05:56 PM
Larry,

I don't have a problem with that, it's difficult to speak concisely and not have people take away different meanings anyway. If someone asks the question, "Is Aikido effective?" they generally are asking whether they will develop a good level of self-defense proficiency for their time invested. Often the most honest answer to this is "probably not", but using the word "ineffective" does not mean "can't ever be used". Anything *can* be used, the question is how reliably for how many practitioners.

That said, of course Aikido is not some monolithic practice. In general however, many if not most Asian martial arts are closely tied to their weapons origins, or for other historical reasons contain a syllabus of techniques that do not correlate well to modern empty hand fighting. Things like rising blocks and reverse punches may be applicable if you're holding or thrusting certain types of weapon, but they are not suitable for dealing with boxing punches that are retracted as quickly as they are thrown. It seems many Aikidoka talk about an "attacker" as someone who literally attacks without regard for minimizing counter attacks. In fact, street attackers either cheat as much as possible to ensure their success, or tend to choose victims they think they can take. Nobody is going to throw a punch that hangs out in space, or simply allow themselves to be countered without fully resisting every effort to control them. In other words dealing with fully resistive boxing and wrestling attacks is the norm, not some rare thing to be discussed once in a blue moon. The obvious arts to deal with those attacks are boxing and wrestling, yet for some reason many people avoid the syllabus that evolved with these attacks in favor of "exotic" Asian approaches to solving a different problem.

So there are two obvious elements, cooperative vs competitive training methods, and the realism of both the attacks and counters. Training Aikido in a more competitive way can be good, but the choice of technique is still paramount. Techniques like kotegaishi have very limited scope and applicability even if trained in a more aggressive manner. If we're wrestling over a jo, great, but for what else?

There are things that can be taken from many Asian martial arts, but if one is honest about the applicability toward common attacks and the need to train them in a competitive way, it's going to look more and more like Western combat than anything classically Asian. People should do what they enjoy, and there are many reasons to enjoy something like Aikido, but what is really the point of even trying to make something derived from Japanese sword work into a Western combat art?

Wow, it's about time someone made sense around here. I could not have said it better. Dan, I really appreciate your integrity of real life self defense. It definitely has inspired me to want to learn more about boxing and wrestling. I enjoy reading your writing.

salim
09-09-2007, 06:02 PM
I think this is quite true. The problem is that there is no single common training method within "Aikido" not even within the Aikikai which represents the root heritage of Aikido. William indicated as much when he said-
LC
Aikikai does not represent the root heritage of Aikido. I don't want to get off the subject here, but that is far from the truth. Aikikai just happens to be the largest political organization representing Aikido today. Aikido's root heritage are more apparent within Aikibudo, pre WWII Aikido.

L. Camejo
09-09-2007, 07:08 PM
Dan: Whatever floats your boat man. You believe what you like. Though from some of your assumptions and statements about Aikido's tactical approach I can see what William is referring to. Have fun, train hard, do whatever you like.

Aikikai does not represent the root heritage of Aikido.Salim, you too can believe whatever you want. I could care less. However, Ueshiba M. founded what most of us here refer to when we say Aikido (at one time this method was also called Ueshiba Ryu Aikijujutsu, Kobudo and Aikibudo). He also founded the Aikikai Foundation to organize and establish the dissemination of his teachings. His son and grandson have carried on the lineage of the Budo he started (Aikido) in the organization he started (Aikikai). Whether or not the technical and training content is what he taught originally during his Aikibudo days is for those whose training may be affected by such questions. This however is for another thread.

It's so interesting how many people believe that if they can't do something then it can't be done, or is not supposed to be. E.g. If I can't get Aikido to work against Boxing attacks then maybe it was never designed to deal with boxing attacks. But of course, why try and train hard to achieve something truly unique when I can easily find a way of making myself feel better for my own mediocrity by saying it can't be done. :rolleyes:

If this were always the case humankind would never evolve. Aikido itself would not exist.

Bob and Jeff, I'll post again when I have video to assist or when you guys post something new again. Until then.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Aikibu
09-09-2007, 07:39 PM
Wow, it's about time someone made sense around here. I could not have said it better. Dan, I really appreciate your integrity of real life self defense. It definitely has inspired me to want to learn more about boxing and wrestling. I enjoy reading your writing.

There's another loaded phrase "Real Life Self Defense" And Ooooooh I don't know... Since I have a Special Operations Background in my past I take that to mean Calling in Air Support... High Explosives...and the Prodigeous Use of Automatic Weapons.IOW Doing whatever is nessecary to protect yourself. If Fedyor Emelyanenko came after me with the intent to hurt or kill me. I'd just shoot him and proclaim it an act of "Self Defense"

In Martial Terms I think Sean Connery put it best in one of my favorite Movies The Untouchables

"You wanna know how to get Capone? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That's* the *Chicago* way! And that's how you get Capone. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I'm offering you a deal. Do you want this deal?"

Reality cannot be found in any dojo anywhere in that sense.

Lots of folks like to talk about "Real Life Self Defense" not realizing what a can of worms they're opening...

I use Aikido everyday in "Real Life Self Defense" and have not hit anybody or made someone bleed in over 5 years...

Anyone care to take a shot at that Koan? :)

I am all for someone wanting to be the best they can be and for the overall improvement of every Martial Art.

Personally I feel Modern Martial Arts have to offer more that a series of tools for "Self Defense" There is much much more to it than that for me...

With All Due Respect Salim and fellow posters

William Hazen

Aikibu
09-09-2007, 07:51 PM
Larry,

I don't have a problem with that, it's difficult to speak concisely and not have people take away different meanings anyway. If someone asks the question, "Is Aikido effective?" they generally are asking whether they will develop a good level of self-defense proficiency for their time invested. Often the most honest answer to this is "probably not", but using the word "ineffective" does not mean "can't ever be used". Anything *can* be used, the question is how reliably for how many practitioners.

That said, of course Aikido is not some monolithic practice. In general however, many if not most Asian martial arts are closely tied to their weapons origins, or for other historical reasons contain a syllabus of techniques that do not correlate well to modern empty hand fighting. Things like rising blocks and reverse punches may be applicable if you're holding or thrusting certain types of weapon, but they are not suitable for dealing with boxing punches that are retracted as quickly as they are thrown. It seems many Aikidoka talk about an "attacker" as someone who literally attacks without regard for minimizing counter attacks. In fact, street attackers either cheat as much as possible to ensure their success, or tend to choose victims they think they can take. Nobody is going to throw a punch that hangs out in space, or simply allow themselves to be countered without fully resisting every effort to control them. In other words dealing with fully resistive boxing and wrestling attacks is the norm, not some rare thing to be discussed once in a blue moon. The obvious arts to deal with those attacks are boxing and wrestling, yet for some reason many people avoid the syllabus that evolved with these attacks in favor of "exotic" Asian approaches to solving a different problem.

So there are two obvious elements, cooperative vs competitive training methods, and the realism of both the attacks and counters. Training Aikido in a more competitive way can be good, but the choice of technique is still paramount. Techniques like kotegaishi have very limited scope and applicability even if trained in a more aggressive manner. If we're wrestling over a jo, great, but for what else?

There are things that can be taken from many Asian martial arts, but if one is honest about the applicability toward common attacks and the need to train them in a competitive way, it's going to look more and more like Western combat than anything classically Asian. People should do what they enjoy, and there are many reasons to enjoy something like Aikido, but what is really the point of even trying to make something derived from Japanese sword work into a Western combat art?

Better...and I second what Larry said as well. Perhaps as you grow in experiance you will work out your misconceptions about "Asian" Martial Arts...

By the way the best Western Combat Art I know that's availible to a civilian is Combat Pistol Shooting.Learning to shoot effectively under duress is sure to resolve almost any "Realistic Street Encounter" you're likely to experiance. :)

William Hazen

Aikibu
09-09-2007, 07:55 PM
It's so interesting how many people believe that if they can't do something then it can't be done, or is not supposed to be. E.g. If I can't get Aikido to work against Boxing attacks then maybe it was never designed to deal with boxing attacks. But of course, why try and train hard to achieve something truly unique when I can easily find a way of making myself feel better for my own mediocrity by saying it can't be done. :rolleyes:

If this were always the case humankind would never evolve. Aikido itself would not exist.

LC:ai::ki:

Perfect. :)

William Hazen

Bob King
09-09-2007, 07:57 PM
Thank you Larry...The feeling is mutual. I always enjoy the Shodokan perspective you and Peter R. :)

William Hazen

P.S. Do you know any Shodokan Aikido Yudansha out here in L.A. that you would reccomend?

Hi Wiliam,

There is a Shodokan club at USC. The sensei is Mark Colopy,

markcolopy@cox.net

That is his email address.

Bob King

Bob King
09-09-2007, 08:33 PM
[QUOTE=Larry Camejo;189199]

It's so interesting how many people believe that if they can't do something then it can't be done, or is not supposed to be. E.g. If I can't get Aikido to work against Boxing attacks then maybe it was never designed to deal with boxing attacks. But of course, why try and train hard to achieve something truly unique when I can easily find a way of making myself feel better for my own mediocrity by saying it can't be done. :rolleyes:

If this were always the case humankind would never evolve. Aikido itself would not exist.

Bob and Jeff, I'll post again when I have video to assist or when you guys post something new again. Until then.

Thanks, Larry, an excellent summation of the reason Jeff and I started to do this. Our intent was not to provide a forum for petty disagreement on the effectiveness of one combat system over another which is ultimately an inane discussion as it isn't the effectiveness of the system in the fight but the effectiveness of the fighter in the fight that decides what "works" or does not. We were/are trying to provide a forum for discussion of other ways to practice the art of Aikido in it's many variations and in a variety of resistive environments or applications, randori. Whether what I practice ends up looking like aikibudo or MMA, or pankration or Goobercrap-Do is irrelevant to me. If it helps my total understanding of Tomiki/Shodokan aikido (the system I choose to practice most) and of the martial arts in general is what is relevant to me.

Look forward to seeing some videos from you Larry and to some day meet you or other folks here in person and work with you to develop our arts.

Peace, love and granola bars to all! :D

Bob King

Dan Austin
09-09-2007, 10:01 PM
It's so interesting how many people believe that if they can't do something then it can't be done, or is not supposed to be. E.g. If I can't get Aikido to work against Boxing attacks then maybe it was never designed to deal with boxing attacks. But of course, why try and train hard to achieve something truly unique when I can easily find a way of making myself feel better for my own mediocrity by saying it can't be done. :rolleyes:

It is a fact that Aikido was not designed for boxing, unless I've missed where Ueshiba was discussing techniques for the 1-2. Now, whether anybody can get the principles to work reliably in that context is another issue.

It's so interesting how many people dismissively imply that something very difficult to do is something they could do rather easily (since they're not mediocre-by-definition like the rest of us who think it's pretty hard) - so I'm sure everybody is looking forward to those videos.

salim
09-09-2007, 10:25 PM
Dan: Whatever floats your boat man. You believe what you like. Though from some of your assumptions and statements about Aikido's tactical approach I can see what William is referring to. Have fun, train hard, do whatever you like.

Salim, you too can believe whatever you want. I could care less. However, Ueshiba M. founded what most of us here refer to when we say Aikido (at one time this method was also called Ueshiba Ryu Aikijujutsu, Kobudo and Aikibudo). He also founded the Aikikai Foundation to organize and establish the dissemination of his teachings. His son and grandson have carried on the lineage of the Budo he started (Aikido) in the organization he started (Aikikai). Whether or not the technical and training content is what he taught originally during his Aikibudo days is for those whose training may be affected by such questions. This however is for another thread.

It's so interesting how many people believe that if they can't do something then it can't be done, or is not supposed to be. E.g. If I can't get Aikido to work against Boxing attacks then maybe it was never designed to deal with boxing attacks. But of course, why try and train hard to achieve something truly unique when I can easily find a way of making myself feel better for my own mediocrity by saying it can't be done. :rolleyes:

If this were always the case humankind would never evolve. Aikido itself would not exist.

Bob and Jeff, I'll post again when I have video to assist or when you guys post something new again. Until then.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:
There is a bit of obscurity with the naming of Aikido and perhaps Aikikai.

“I was reading in "Conversations with Aikjujutsu Masters" that some leading aikido people understood "aikido" to refer to daito ryu aikijujutsu and that some daito ryu people called their art aikido. And it is true that Minoru Hirai, creator of korindo aikido, was the one who actually created the name and registered it with the butokuden. It was actually intended to be a fairly broad category, including his approach, Ueshiba's and that of daito ryu, as well as any other art using aiki.”
It think that's reflective of the "brand-namization" of aikido after O-Sensei's death. What was a fairly inclusive term became more and more strictly applicable to the aikikai, and even more so when Tohei left. Stanley Pranin has done us a great service to show that the roots are still connected and we do well to understand how broad aikido really is. The people who left when Auge was getting established were those who would have liked to push that old yoseikan aikido much further toward the aikikai brand. Of course, one fellow was rather older and Auge's influence was making the art more demanding. Eventually, I think, Auge did succeed in developing the all-round, smooth art that Mochizuki Sensei was aiming for, combining aikido, judo, karate and sword in a seamless blend of smooth and "very soft" aikido. That is to say that it's hard to feel his technique because it is so soft and smooth, similar to that of Murai Sensei."

"The truth is back when Kancho was learning from him, it was budo, it had lots of names, but the important under pinning idea was budo. Then yes, this umbrella term Aikido was suggested by Hirai. This is why so many people think that his art, Korindo Aikido, is a style of Aikido, but it is a separate Aikido art."

Upyu
09-09-2007, 11:03 PM
Things like rising blocks and reverse punches may be applicable if you're holding or thrusting certain types of weapon, but they are not suitable for dealing with boxing punches that are retracted as quickly as they are thrown.
<snip>
The obvious arts to deal with those attacks are boxing and wrestling, yet for some reason many people avoid the syllabus that evolved with these attacks in favor of "exotic" Asian approaches to solving a different problem.


おもいっきりdisagree :D

I totally, utterly disagree with that statement, as I'm sure a couple other on here reading this thread, a couple of which fight mma.

Long weapons work (such as spear) in particular gives you access to methods of movement and power generation that your orthodox boxing/kickboxing simply can't give you. And from first hand experience I've seen it give problems in spades to mma fighters not used to dealing with someone that's accquired these skills. (Doesn't mean your invincible, but it can even the odds, especially when your opponent has 4-5 years more experience than you)
My own instructor can move his entire body on the verticle plane, just about as fast as a good boxer can jab. (Course it helps that he used to work out with pro boxers here in Japan)

I've got a CMA friend who literally uses the same body method from his spear work in his standup and groundgame, which allowed him to win the all european submission grappling tourney ;)

That being said, I hate to say it but the Aiki-boxing demo was utter crap. Its great that the guys are trying to use the principles they've learned within a boxing context, but it's pretty obvious they're bodies aren't connected and that they're they're mixing up two completely different paradigms of movement. Mostly they're copying the shape of the movement, but that's about it.

Anyways so why don't we see more people using the "other" kind of movement? My own personal opinoin is that its because
a) there's few people that can actually teach it, much less teach it to a degree that conditions the body sufficiently,
b) even if you do run into someone that can teach it, the actual training is so "$#%"ing arduous most people drop out within the first 6 months or so. (its a different kind of skill required by the body, so being able to do 100 situps, pushups, squats etc gives you nothing that you can carry over)

M2C

ChrisHein
09-09-2007, 11:33 PM
Rob,
I don't know what you're talking about.

I've seen your youtube video's. If that is an example of "other" kinds of movement, I think you should apologize to the Aiki-boxing fellows.

I have seen nothing from you or your teachers videos that would lead me to believe you know at all what you are talking about.

Dan Austin
09-10-2007, 12:16 AM
おもいっきりdisagree :D

I totally, utterly disagree with that statement, as I'm sure a couple other on here reading this thread, a couple of which fight mma.

Long weapons work (such as spear) in particular gives you access to methods of movement and power generation that your orthodox boxing/kickboxing simply can't give you. And from first hand experience I've seen it give problems in spades to mma fighters not used to dealing with someone that's accquired these skills.

Hi Rob,

I've read your stuff with interest, but don't mistake what I'm getting at . There are useful things in the Asian arts. If I read you correctly you're not talking about a style per se, you're talking about applying body movement trainings to any style. The fact remains that the most efficient way to learn to deal with boxing and wrestling is learning boxing and wrestling. What you can add to it with your body trainings I don't know, but you still have to apply it in the technical context. In other words, your body trainings aren't suddenly going to make a shotokan block a good way to deal with a 1-2 compared to slipping it, if you follow my drift. And they must be hard to learn since they're obscure if nothing else, whereas finding an MMA gym, boxing coach, or wrestling coach is easy. So I'm curious to see if you can take the world by storm with this stuff, but even in the best scenario I suspect it would be an adjunct to MMA and not a substitute. But I'm always willing to be wrong. :)

Aikibu
09-10-2007, 01:30 AM
It is a fact that Aikido was not designed for boxing, unless I've missed where Ueshiba was discussing techniques for the 1-2. Now, whether anybody can get the principles to work reliably in that context is another issue.


Dan I humbly suggest you check your facts and do further research on the subject.

William Hazen

darin
09-10-2007, 04:35 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNjvFuqpWNE

philippe willaume
09-10-2007, 08:11 AM
LOL. This is *exactly* what I was getting at, and the idea that this clip supports Aikido is incredibly funny. Anyone who wants to claim this on behalf of Aikido has been swilling the KoolAid far too long. ;) Logic along the lines of "this is aiki, Aikido is about aiki, and I do Aikido...therefore I can do this!" is just delusional. This is boxing, not Aikido. Aikido training is about as far removed from boxing as possible. Training ikkyos and whatnot against meaningless attacks in no way prepares you to do this, training in boxing gives you this skill, hence my prior recommendation to train with a boxing coach. If you get grappled, wrestling will effectively teach you to counter any attempts to grapple you. If you do wind up on the ground, submissions training will allow you to defend yourself and get back on your feet. In other words MMA is the body of modern effective fighting technique and training methods that develops real skill, the only thing Aikido brings to the table is the defensive mindset - which doesn't require any ongoing training in an Aikido school to do.

Ueshiba's revelation was not to resist, contend, and outcompete, but to take the openings presented by being attacked. He who attacks opens himself to be countered in doing so, and should be shown the error of breaking harmony with the universe as it were. In theory. This is also a sound legal basis for self-defense, and is commendable. However the important thing to note is that Ueshiba traveled Japan and became an accomplished martial artist prior to reaching a more mature and meaningful understanding of martial art. Emulating him today would entail doing the same, which means embracing MMA as the gold standard syllabus of realistic unarmed technique and training method. The standard Aikido syllabus today is practically worthless in addressing modern hand to hand fighting. The title of this thread is apt - aiki-boxing is what Aikido should be, but isn't. You can't have an art whose execution depends 90% on atemi, spend 0% of your time training realistic atemi, and expect a good result. Unless you spend 90% of your training time boxing, the 90% atemi just isn't going to happen for you.

Hello Dan
I do agree with what I understand you mean in your mail.

But does it really matter, if we call it boxing, karate, wing chung, jet kun do, or 18th century boxing or that it represent proper use of atemi in aikido?

What matters is that, you actually punch with power, precision and balance and you can use those strikes to close in, take down your opponent and pin him or break him or throw him.
For some people this is the aikido they practice. It is true as well that usually they have striking arts in their back ground or they practice as the same time they do aikido.
So it would be hard for me to disagree with tack on training atemi…

However I think it is very abusive to say that MMA is close to gold standard for self defence.
I have been on the record saying that I though it is a very good way to train and has a very good conceptualisation of a fight (i.e. that is very relevant to an actual self defence encounter).

However the predicates MMA is based upon: making the encounter as fair as possible, is the exact opposite of self defence.

It is as far remote to reality as relaying on “defend and counter attack because each time someone attack he leaves himself open to counter attack” because again that is only the case in a “fair” fight.

This shows even in the average challenge between MMA and your average master ninja from hell. The master ninja always want to fight on a parking lot or on concrete, so that it takes away the take-down where both fall and makes ground work more painful on the knee.
Unfortunately for them, the same master ninjas from hell do not seem to be aware that elbow and knee protections for roller/blade/board skating or volley ball do exist, not to mention that standard elbow and knee protections will take at least on session on concrete and since they are not a massive financial burden.
Nonetheless and however pathetic, it is an attempt to stack the deck in their favour.

And that is exactly why, most of self defence case are either ambush or have the attacker start from a closed distance.
The point is that usually the attacker(s) stack up the deck on their favour before the attack.. Hence Mister Thompson fence and pre-emptive strike, (In England pre-emptive strike can and have been justified in self defence case).

The other potential problem, is that mounting someone and pounding him or choking him start do drift in very dodgy legal ground on the usage of reasonable force and self defence/assault/ABH/GBH and whether or not duty to retreat/castle laws can be called upon or not.

Even in England where you do not have duty to retreat, the prosecution will probably point out that you sat on the guy chest and pounded him instead of taking advantage of the situation to retire and call for help as any reasonable man would do in the circumstances
Not to mention that you give his potential buddies (or third party for that matter) a perfect self defences case as they could claim that they were fearing for their friends life and give them cause to use a huge degree of force.
The fact that the guy you sat on is the original aggressor and you had valid cause will amount to nothing as it is very easy for them to propose that actually believed that their friend was in an imminent and unavoidable threat.

Phil

Upyu
09-10-2007, 07:48 PM
Rob,
I don't know what you're talking about.

I've seen your youtube video's. If that is an example of "other" kinds of movement, I think you should apologize to the Aiki-boxing fellows.

I have seen nothing from you or your teachers videos that would lead me to believe you know at all what you are talking about.

Uh, no dude, it's not in those youtube videos.

I could say likewise, that I've seen nothing in your videos that shows that you know what you're talking about as well :rolleyes:
Besides, anyone that's met myself or Ark in person hasn't had a negative comment yet. If Ark was so full of BS when it comes to this stuff you think someone that'd met him would have piped up by now ;)

Upyu
09-10-2007, 09:53 PM
Hi Rob,

I've read your stuff with interest, but don't mistake what I'm getting at . There are useful things in the Asian arts. If I read you correctly you're not talking about a style per se, you're talking about applying body movement trainings to any style.
Not a body movement, a certain body skill.
When I say bodyskill, I mean exactly that.
Say for instance, the way a kyokushin guy executes a low kick is pretty different biomechanically than say, how a thai boxer will execute his low kick.

Take that difference, but multiply it. Long weapons training, as well as other exercises that've been discussed in various threads builds up a skill, movement "inside" the body that you can't learn from boxing or wrestling.


The fact remains that the most efficient way to learn to deal with boxing and wrestling is learning boxing and wrestling.

I dunno, I'd say that the most efficent way is to train "against" proficient boxers and wrestlers, but not necessarily learn what they're doing. If you do the same thing that they do, then it simply boils down to who moves faster, has more power, better reaction time, knows the sneakier combo. Because you have a skill that they don't it gives you an upper hand that evens the playing field.


What you can add to it with your body trainings I don't know, but you still have to apply it in the technical context. In other words, your body trainings aren't suddenly going to make a shotokan block a good way to deal with a 1-2 compared to slipping it, if you follow my drift.
If you ask me, a shotokan upper block is a horrible example if only because shotokan isn'T a) traditional really, b) as far as I know they don't teach any of this stuff.


And they must be hard to learn since they're obscure if nothing else, whereas finding an MMA gym, boxing coach, or wrestling coach is easy. So I'm curious to see if you can take the world by storm with this stuff, but even in the best scenario I suspect it would be an adjunct to MMA and not a substitute.

Well considering the fact that this stuff is about completely rewiring the body...I'd say it is in its own way a substitute.
To compete in MMA you have to fight against MMAers. There's no getting around that. But if you want to be really good, you have to do something different from everyone around you.
The only thing I can say is, you should get out and find someone that's capable in this stuff so you can get a first hand feel.
Akuzawa will be in San Fran and Seattle this november,
Dan Harden and Mike Sigman have been pretty open about showing this stuff as far as I know, and if you dig around I'm sure you could find someone else that's always willing to show you the "difference."

You can spout endless rhetoric over the net, but really it boils down to something really simple... ITHTBF (it has to be felt). :D

Dan Austin
09-10-2007, 10:15 PM
However I think it is very abusive to say that MMA is close to gold standard for self defence.

Phil,
It's difficult to convey exactly what one means so that all readers come away with your intended meaning. I would like to think I have a mature outlook on martial arts, since I've been involved in it for a long time. You have to realize that martial arts training is a hobby with a number of benefits, but most of it has little to do with self-defense. I did not say "MMA is close to the gold standard for self-defense", I said "gold standard syllabus of realistic unarmed technique and training method." For the purpose of discussion I am deliberately avoiding edged weapons and most issues of "real" self-defense. I'm engaging in a sort of dispassionate dissection of how reliable certain techniques are, being open to look fairly at any style and what it has to offer - not because it really matters, but this is a discussion board. For "real" self-defense, techniques A and B may both be largely irrelevant compared to more important issues like avoiding stupid and dangerous behavior, but that doesn't mean it's unfair to say B is a much better technique than A.

It's difficult to explain this sort of perspective without endless writing, but when someone periodically asks whether Aikido is effective, you know what they're asking. They probably can't understand a multi-style holistic perspective until they get that experience. They just want to know if training in Aikido will give them the ability to defend themselves, and this is a loaded question. They probably don't understand that any martial arts training is a minor factor in serious "real" self-defense. But typically they desire to have the ability to beat the crap out of people, whether or not they use that ability, and despite all the issues of what is involved in real self-defense this is a reasonable expectation to have going into an area called "martial" arts. They're asking for recommendations regarding a dentist, so people talking about how much they like their chiropractor misses the mark. As they gain experience they can put things in better perspective, but it's simply untrue that all techniques and training methods are equally valid in producing usable skill. There are also plenty of deluded or downright unscrupulous teachers out there who will say or imply that the training they provide gives their students usable skill when it doesn't.

There are many caveats and footnotes that go along with everything, which is why I have said to the extent martial arts training carries over to self-defense, Aikido's defensive mindset is legally important. MMA training needs to be put in perspective as well. You fight like you train, and it's important to keep in mind that tackling people and choking them out is not always a wise approach (but you *can* get away with it, even in a dark parking lot at night sometimes, and concrete is not a big deal). However, having the ability to *avoid* being tackled and choked out is very useful, and the techniques and training of MMA vastly outstrip Aikido in producing this skill. See what I'm getting at? Aikido is a good umbrella mindset, but technique is technique. 10,000 kotegaishis will do little to build any reflexes that will serve you against someone who really wants to beat you. Competitive training builds skills that are impossible to get any other way, and they mimic "real" self-defense better and have far more carryover than cooperative training. It's also more challenging and interesting for that reason, IMO. And incidentally, MMA fighters are not so brainless that they think there's a referee in a street fight! Take a look at Bas Rutten's series on street tactics for example recommendations like the good 'ol kick in the nuts and trash can lid face smash. ;) No matter how you slice it, having real ability to inflict mayhem on fully resisting opponents gives you the choices to use it intelligently (including preferably never), while not having real ability limits you. This is why I recommend to anybody who asks "Is Aikido effective" that they go get some real competitive ability to start their journey into martial arts. The rest (including Aikido) may make more sense much later. In other words I believe it's fair to give a short answer of "no, it's not effective". It's also less typing, although it risks ruffling feathers here and there. ;)

Dan Austin
09-10-2007, 10:24 PM
I dunno, I'd say that the most efficent way is to train "against" proficient boxers and wrestlers, but not necessarily learn what they're doing. If you do the same thing that they do, then it simply boils down to who moves faster, has more power, better reaction time, knows the sneakier combo. Because you have a skill that they don't it gives you an upper hand that evens the playing field.

Well, unless you can move your head out of the way of their punches faster, I don't know how much it can help. As they say, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. ;) Seriously, the reflex to do something different doesn't always make sense. I can only box to my level of talent, but that doesn't mean I'll have more luck another way. Besides, how long do I need to train to get this 4-5 year equivalent edge of experience you're claiming? 6-7 years? ;)

Roman Kremianski
09-10-2007, 10:43 PM
I dunno, I'd say that the most efficent way is to train "against" proficient boxers and wrestlers, but not necessarily learn what they're doing. If you do the same thing that they do, then it simply boils down to who moves faster, has more power, better reaction time, knows the sneakier combo. Because you have a skill that they don't it gives you an upper hand that evens the playing field.

Sorry to be blunt, but that's wrong. You'll be forced to play their game, whether you like it or not.

Aikibu
09-10-2007, 11:37 PM
Sorry to be blunt, but that's wrong. You'll be forced to play their game, whether you like it or not.

Not in my experiance...

If you're "playing thier game" your practice is weak

William Hazen

Upyu
09-10-2007, 11:38 PM
Well, unless you can move your head out of the way of their punches faster, I don't know how much it can help. As they say, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. ;) Seriously, the reflex to do something different doesn't always make sense. I can only box to my level of talent, but that doesn't mean I'll have more luck another way. Besides, how long do I need to train to get this 4-5 year equivalent edge of experience you're claiming? 6-7 years? ;)

I dunno, I've been doing grappling for less than 2 years, and I do fine against guys that have 5+ years submission grappling experience over here in Japan. So you can take it for what its worth.;)

Upyu
09-10-2007, 11:41 PM
Not in my experiance...

If you're "playing thier game" your practice is weak

William Hazen

Ooh... you know hurts so much, but true.

Then again, there is a truth to what Roman says. Most people are forced to play a boxer's or wrestlers game.
The ability to truly not play their game wouldn't be special if it were easy.

Aikibu
09-10-2007, 11:57 PM
Not a body movement, a certain body skill.
When I say bodyskill, I mean exactly that.
Say for instance, the way a kyokushin guy executes a low kick is pretty different biomechanically than say, how a thai boxer will execute his low kick.

Take that difference, but multiply it. Long weapons training, as well as other exercises that've been discussed in various threads builds up a skill, movement "inside" the body that you can't learn from boxing or wrestling.

I dunno, I'd say that the most efficent way is to train "against" proficient boxers and wrestlers, but not necessarily learn what they're doing. If you do the same thing that they do, then it simply boils down to who moves faster, has more power, better reaction time, knows the sneakier combo. Because you have a skill that they don't it gives you an upper hand that evens the playing field.

If you ask me, a shotokan upper block is a horrible example if only because shotokan isn'T a) traditional really, b) as far as I know they don't teach any of this stuff.

Well considering the fact that this stuff is about completely rewiring the body...I'd say it is in its own way a substitute.
To compete in MMA you have to fight against MMAers. There's no getting around that. But if you want to be really good, you have to do something different from everyone around you.
The only thing I can say is, you should get out and find someone that's capable in this stuff so you can get a first hand feel.
Akuzawa will be in San Fran and Seattle this november,
Dan Harden and Mike Sigman have been pretty open about showing this stuff as far as I know, and if you dig around I'm sure you could find someone else that's always willing to show you the "difference."

You can spout endless rhetoric over the net, but really it boils down to something really simple... ITHTBF (it has to be felt). :D

Amen...Excellent post. I will take being put on my head over You Tube any day of the week and twice on Sundays...

Maybe it's because I am Irish and a graduate of the school of hard knocks starting with Pops and Sister Mary Slapupside Ye Head Catholic School. LOL :D

Getting back up after falling a million times is the only way I have learned.

William Hazen

Dan Austin
09-11-2007, 12:00 AM
I dunno, I've been doing grappling for less than 2 years, and I do fine against guys that have 5+ years submission grappling experience over here in Japan. So you can take it for what its worth.;)

I'm not sure what "do fine" means. Resisting getting tapped is a lot easier than tapping other people, especially no-gi. If you can tap people with several years more training on you, that would be pretty good.

Aikibu
09-11-2007, 12:03 AM
Ooh... you know hurts so much, but true.

Then again, there is a truth to what Roman says. Most people are forced to play a boxer's or wrestlers game.
The ability to truly not play their game wouldn't be special if it were easy.

Yeah I agree you have to play thier game until (after practice hard enough and long enough) you learn yours, and how to extend ki aka impose your will as Mr. Couture loves to say...

Not a dig at you Roman so much as a testimony to develop excellence in whatever you choose as your Martial Practice.

William Hazen

philippe willaume
09-11-2007, 06:23 AM
hello dan
I see where you are coming from and it makes sense to me.
I think it is as well very representative of this discussion
Each of our argument, we use the relevance of the context in which the art is applied does, and hence a different answer.

I think we are defiantly in agreement on the value of MMA in self defence and we have the same reason for that
I think we agree on the relevance of the self defence context and how it applies to MMA, aikido or even TMA (as in BJJ, JJ. Muy thai, karate, kung fu, wing chung, savate and so on)
They can all deal with your average pisshead (or group of there off)
And none of theme is that directly useful against deceptive thugs/muggers.

From what you said about kote geishi and atemi, I think that the reason of the difference of opinion is in what your experience of aikido is and what others ( myself included) experience of aikido is.

Just as an example this is our basic from of attack, we practice 9 techniques from each of them. There is at least one strike (and a proper one) in each of them, (and you can replace the whole technique by continuing striking), you do that from static, dynamic (you create the movement) and ki no nogare

1st form= same wrist grab (right to right)
2nd from= opposite wrist grab (as in right to left)
3rd form= opposite shoulder grab
4th form= front lapel grab with one hand
5th form= shomen (raising and descending)
6th form= yokomen
7th form= punch to the abdomen
8th form = collar grab from behind
9th form= opposite elbow grab
10th from= grab one hand with both hands
11th form= grab both hands from the front
12th form= grab both shoulder from the front
13th form = grab both wrists from the back
14th form= grab both elbows from the back
15th from= grab both shoulders from the back
16th form=grab one wrist and strangulation/choke from the back with the other.

This is jus as an exemple, so that you can put it in perspective with your own experience.
phil

philippe willaume
09-11-2007, 08:50 AM
Ooh... you know hurts so much, but true.

Then again, there is a truth to what Roman says. Most people are forced to play a boxer's or wrestlers game.
The ability to truly not play their game wouldn't be special if it were easy.

Not to play the devil advocate….(especially since I am all the way on your side of the fence)
But I think Roman and Dan point is that aikido, the way it is taught, (i.e. the way it was taught and demonstrated to them) do not teach you how to play your game.
Personally I do not agree that it does apply to aikido as whole but there are certainly occurrences of that in aikido.

To make things “worse”, I think MMA is very good at defining and polishing your game. (On that point I agree with Dan and Roman)

In that context, Dan has a point about aikido techniques being inefficient, partly due to reason Robert advanced but as well because that in some schools/styles, they try to make you run before you can walk.
On the other hand is there are schools/styles that are more on the “make it work before making it flow” type of philosophy.

Ps all countries are not equal regarding self defense, In the UK you can not carry a riffle a gun, a knife, a sword or any implement as a mean of self defense (unless professional).
It is against the law and on the top of that it is a big torpedo in you self defense case….. So it is back to old way self defense…:-)

salim
09-11-2007, 06:48 PM
Dan I humbly suggest you check your facts and do further research on the subject.

William Hazen
William,

I was reading an interview on Aikidojournal of Hiroshi Isoyama Sensei. Interesting enough he discovered that he had to make modifications to his Aikido to make it effective. Apparently he had never encountered trying Aikido against a larger opponent. Isoyama Sensei was teaching a class to American military officers who were physically larger than he was. When he tired to apply koshinage on the officers, he stated, that he found that they could just step over him, no matter how he try to apply the technique, he was not able to throw them. The height difference prevented him from getting into a good hip position. So he had the idea of putting them across his shoulders instead of across his hips, and that’s how he started using those techniques. Another very important point, is was he more interested in a technique working, verses sticking to some syllabus that may have ineffective techniques. He stated, “I wasn’t trying to be rough or flashy, I was just trying to get the techniques to work. Necessity is the mother of invention!”

I think that this is one of the points that Dan Austin was alluding to. Sometimes you have to adapt to the environment that you are in no matter if it looks like Aikido or not. If Isoyama Sensei was forced to adjust his technique to the point of not being Aikido, or maybe it is Aikido, but not the Aikido that some recognize, then perhaps this a lesson to be learned. If you have to box a boxer, which really is nothing more than atemi, then the concept that Isoyama Sensei stated, “Necessity is the mother of invention”, is applicable. If you have to wrestle the wrestler then,”Necessity is the mother of invention”, is applicable.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=102

Roman Kremianski
09-11-2007, 08:01 PM
Not in my experiance...

If you're "playing thier game" your practice is weak

I dunno, I've been doing grappling for less than 2 years, and I do fine against guys that have 5+ years submission grappling experience over here in Japan.

Give me a break guys! :( Now I have to resort to the oldest anti-bullshit phrase on the net: Video or it didn't happen.

Theorizing is one thing...making a claim is completely different. You figured out a way to employ these secret skillz you have to get "the upper hand" on a boxer or wrestler? Please share. Because if they existed, boxers and wrestlers would be learning them to get an upper hand on other boxers or wrestlers.

Here's your experienced wrestler...your job is to stay on your feet or take him down. You'll find that what you'll mostly be doing is wrestling, unless someone here can be kind and share something new with me, as I'm always open to new things.

Upyu
09-11-2007, 09:19 PM
Give me a break guys! :( Now I have to resort to the oldest anti-bullshit phrase on the net: Video or it didn't happen.

Theorizing is one thing...making a claim is completely different. You figured out a way to employ these secret skillz you have to get "the upper hand" on a boxer or wrestler? Please share. Because if they existed, boxers and wrestlers would be learning them to get an upper hand on other boxers or wrestlers.

Here's your experienced wrestler...your job is to stay on your feet or take him down. You'll find that what you'll mostly be doing is wrestling, unless someone here can be kind and share something new with me, as I'm always open to new things.

Actually like Dan <Austin> said, playing a defensive game, a la staying on your feet(without sprawling) is the easy part. Taking him down takes more skill.

Anyways, if you go back to previous posts to people that've met some of those people with these skills, you'll see all of them will say that this stuff has to be felt to be understood.

Liang Shou-yu is in Canada, a bit far from you granted (he's in Vancouver), Akuzawa's going to be in Seattle in November, Mike Sigman has been open about showing this stuff as well as Dan Harden, need I re-iterate? I'm starting to feel like a broken record here. ;)

Roman Kremianski
09-11-2007, 09:53 PM
Didn't really read much of the posts other than the one I replied too. I've conversed with many net people who claim there's a sensei x at seminar z who will prove me wrong, but seeing as no one is bothering getting this stuff on youtube, I get the impression it must not be that special.

I've looked up Mr.Sigman, and all I find is some guy on internal stuff, with no mention of boxing or wrestling anywhere. Do I have the right guy?

http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/related/interview.htm

Dan Austin
09-11-2007, 09:58 PM
Just as an example this is our basic from of attack, we practice 9 techniques from each of them. There is at least one strike (and a proper one) in each of them, (and you can replace the whole technique by continuing striking), you do that from static, dynamic (you create the movement) and ki no nogare

1st form= same wrist grab (right to right)
2nd from= opposite wrist grab (as in right to left)
3rd form= opposite shoulder grab
4th form= front lapel grab with one hand
5th form= shomen (raising and descending)
6th form= yokomen
7th form= punch to the abdomen
8th form = collar grab from behind
9th form= opposite elbow grab
10th from= grab one hand with both hands
11th form= grab both hands from the front
12th form= grab both shoulder from the front
13th form = grab both wrists from the back
14th form= grab both elbows from the back
15th from= grab both shoulders from the back
16th form=grab one wrist and strangulation/choke from the back with the other.

This is jus as an exemple, so that you can put it in perspective with your own experience.
phil

I think every school is going to be different to one degree or another. The question for every person is "What is the training goal?", followed by "How well does this curriculum serve the goal?".

It's difficult to comment without seeing it, but here for example you have 16 x 9 = 144 variations involving many situations which would likely not occur in a real confrontation, or which would be different enough to require radical changes in response. Who is going to grab both your hands, or one of yours with both of theirs?!? If someone were to grab your sleeve, it would only be so that they could rain punches on your head more easily. Such a grab when it occurs is simply the prelude to a hit a fraction of a second later. Beyond teaching basic movement principles, following this sort of curriculum for too long probably wouldn't lead to much with technical self-defense carryover. To be blunt, wristlocks and other standing armwrestling are best for convincing your friends you're a super-ninja, they are not of much real use against an opponent who represents a real threat. It's nice to know, but it's suitable for low-level or very constrained conflicts, and generally not worth spending years on unless it's typical for your job to have to try to control people this way. For anything worth worrying about, there is no getting around the notion of the importance of atemi, and being able to deal with more serious grappling attacks. Everything depends on the realism of the training method and techniques.

The important thing to consider is the answer to opening question of what your training goal is. If it's to socialize, get a blackbelt, or such things then anything will do. If part of the goal is wanting some transfer to technical self-defense, the second question is important. And if any part of the goal is to be able to deal with violent attack without hurting the poor thug, lay off the crack pipe and put away the Superman cape. ;) Violent criminals deserve to have their eyeballs crushed out of their sockets, and giving a serious attacker a millimeter of slack is just plain stupid. Let's not get too carried away with non-violent philosophy and looking pretty, Ueshiba and other top Aikido people made it pretty clear that the capacity for extreme violence is part of the deal. Without that it's not a martial art, and one thing we can be pretty sure of is that the pedigree of martial arts is life and death combat.

Ego and practice are different things, and while the practice of Aikido can make one more peaceful in everyday life, this is ideally the way one should approach all martial art. In that sense one can say it's the person and not the art, since the most violently capable martial artist can be a nice guy, or the Aikido guy can be a complete jerk. Spirituality, philosophy, emotional maturity, and technique are largely separate domains. Promote peace but be ready for war, 'cause lots of people suck. ;)

Dan Austin
09-11-2007, 11:15 PM
Just for yucks, here's a classic clip showing how much time you can count on to do a lapel grab counter. In this case by the time the guy is grabbed it's already too late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKdZgeesw68

salim
09-12-2007, 12:03 AM
hello dan
I see where you are coming from and it makes sense to me.
I think it is as well very representative of this discussion
Each of our argument, we use the relevance of the context in which the art is applied does, and hence a different answer.

I think we are defiantly in agreement on the value of MMA in self defence and we have the same reason for that
I think we agree on the relevance of the self defence context and how it applies to MMA, aikido or even TMA (as in BJJ, JJ. Muy thai, karate, kung fu, wing chung, savate and so on)
They can all deal with your average pisshead (or group of there off)
And none of theme is that directly useful against deceptive thugs/muggers.

From what you said about kote geishi and atemi, I think that the reason of the difference of opinion is in what your experience of aikido is and what others ( myself included) experience of aikido is.

Just as an example this is our basic from of attack, we practice 9 techniques from each of them. There is at least one strike (and a proper one) in each of them, (and you can replace the whole technique by continuing striking), you do that from static, dynamic (you create the movement) and ki no nogare

1st form= same wrist grab (right to right)
2nd from= opposite wrist grab (as in right to left)
3rd form= opposite shoulder grab
4th form= front lapel grab with one hand
5th form= shomen (raising and descending)
6th form= yokomen
7th form= punch to the abdomen
8th form = collar grab from behind
9th form= opposite elbow grab
10th from= grab one hand with both hands
11th form= grab both hands from the front
12th form= grab both shoulder from the front
13th form = grab both wrists from the back
14th form= grab both elbows from the back
15th from= grab both shoulders from the back
16th form=grab one wrist and strangulation/choke from the back with the other.

This is jus as an exemple, so that you can put it in perspective with your own experience.
phil

No one is going to grab your wrist. They are going to punch and take your #@/8$ head off. Forget about wrist grabs. They serve no real self defense purpose.

CNYMike
09-12-2007, 01:40 AM
It's been a while since we've posted, but we have a new version of Aiki-Boxing out on youtube if anyone is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8ShKpM1Q

Any commentary or suggestions?

Thanks!

Jeff D.
http://www.usaikido.com

Looks interesting.

One future direction to go in might be to start looking at some ideas instead of specific techniques. For instance, given that Aikido responds to all othe lead hand attacks by evading but staying close enough to do something immediately, how would you apply that against a jab? What opportunities present themselves going to the outside, or if the jab retracts before you could grab it? When you go to the inside, into the path of the rear hand, that's when you would want to add in an atemi to forestall a rear hand attack. You may want to do a drill where you see if your atemi can beat his rear hand.

Although you could do that sort of thing with headgear and boxing gloves, you may want to slow down and take it easy without protection. Sometimes you get more out of slowing down and grinding things out.

Just my two cents.

Upyu
09-12-2007, 02:05 AM
Didn't really read much of the posts other than the one I replied too. I've conversed with many net people who claim there's a sensei x at seminar z who will prove me wrong, but seeing as no one is bothering getting this stuff on youtube, I get the impression it must not be that special.

I've looked up Mr.Sigman, and all I find is some guy on internal stuff, with no mention of boxing or wrestling anywhere. Do I have the right guy?

http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/related/interview.htm

Yes you have the right guy. And I'm pretty sure he could show you some body mechanics that would take you a while to wrap your head around. :D

Upyu
09-12-2007, 02:15 AM
Didn't really read much of the posts other than the one I replied too. I've conversed with many net people who claim there's a sensei x at seminar z who will prove me wrong, but seeing as no one is bothering getting this stuff on youtube, I get the impression it must not be that special.

I've looked up Mr.Sigman, and all I find is some guy on internal stuff, with no mention of boxing or wrestling anywhere. Do I have the right guy?

http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/related/interview.htm

Yes that's the guy.
If you do a search there's a bunch of people from Aikiweb that met up with him and myself back in Feb.

Akuzawa is on the net doing stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4GOEdKyee4&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAJVQMCWeOA&mode=related&search=

All of the videos above are simply demos of basic expressions of some of these body mechanics, and if they look simple, I suggest you try it yourself.
Just remember Ark's about 63kg, while most of the guys he demos against are about 85kg+.

Michael Douglas
09-12-2007, 03:24 AM
Just for yucks, here's a classic clip showing how much time you can count on to do a lapel grab counter. In this case by the time the guy is grabbed it's already too late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKdZgeesw68

It looks to me he had plenty of time to try not to be a drunken floppy lettuce. He could have easily got his arms up over the grab, stiffen his body, straight-arm, crouch, whatever. Lots of things to do, plenty of time.
But great video Dan! Thanks!

Poor bystander number one, clocked on the chin, dozy mutt.

Gernot Hassenpflug
09-12-2007, 05:37 AM
And that is exactly why, most of self defence case are either ambush or have the attacker start from a closed distance.
The point is that usually the attacker(s) stack up the deck on their favour before the attack.. Hence Mister Thompson fence and pre-emptive strike, (In England pre-emptive strike can and have been justified in self defence case).

Very interesting, I did not know that. England, not so bad after all <g>


The fact that the guy you sat on is the original aggressor and you had valid cause will amount to nothing as it is very easy for them to propose that actually believed that their friend was in an imminent and unavoidable threat.

Which is why we need those implants so that our thoughts can be recorded (by ourselves) for proof of correct behaviour <g>

I hear you, that is a real issue that gives me plenty of headaches, and which must be thought about---as for those of us who carry (or have carried) firearms---long in advance of any need to make use of weapons or self-defence training. All too often, physical reality and legal reality have no overlap, except that one wishes to be present in person at one's hearing rather than recovering in hospital or residing in the local morgue.

Gernot Hassenpflug
09-12-2007, 05:54 AM
Well, unless you can move your head out of the way of their punches faster, I don't know how much it can help. As they say, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. ;) Seriously, the reflex to do something different doesn't always make sense. I can only box to my level of talent, but that doesn't mean I'll have more luck another way. Besides, how long do I need to train to get this 4-5 year equivalent edge of experience you're claiming? 6-7 years? ;)

No argument that without hard training no theoretical advantage is going to happen in reality. To comment on what Rob is talking about: "how" to "move the head out of the way" while still staying connected and able to move the whole body offensively, to not lose balance while taking and receiving contact. There is training out there that is different from what boxers learn to do.

phil farmer
09-12-2007, 10:26 AM
Sorry to be coming so late to this thread. My name was thrown in way back in the beginning but it has been a very busy spring and summer.

I practice and teach Yoseikan Budo. In the U.S. we began as direct students of Minoru Mochizuki's Yoseikan and over the past several years have learned and become a part of Hiroo Mochizuki's Yoseikan Budo. My view is that Yoseikan, dating from 1931 and Minoru Sensei is one of the original mixed martial arts. Minoru Sensei spent his life looking for the links that would tie all of the martial arts together.

In the 1950's he went to France and Europe and introduced Aiki to the Europeans (with O Sensei's permission). Minoru Sensei took matches with all comers and all styles and learned very quickly that one style did not work with everyone. When he came back from his trip, he told this to O Sensei, that aiki did not always work and that he had used his karate, judo, jiujitsu, basically his whole repetoire (which was massive in the man) to deal with boxers, savate, wrestling, etc. It was this trip that pushed Minoru Sensei to work even more to blend the arts into an effective approach.

What has not been known by lots of folks is that in the 1950's, Hiroo Mochizuki was sent to Europe. He introduced Shotokan to France and Europe and is much celebrated by the karate community in France as the father of their karate, to the point that he was recently awarded 9th dan by the French Karate Federation. Hiroo Sensei learned the same things his father did, aiki, shotokan, etc, don't always work depending on the fighter.
(And, as to his aiki credentials, Hiroo Mochizuki was Ueshiba's direct student from 1948 until he left for France to live in 1963).

When Hiroo Sensei returned from France, he took up Wado Ryu Karate to fill in some of the gaps he found when he was taking all matches in Europe. The other thing that many don't know is that it was during this time that his father charged Hiroo Sensei with finding the way to put all of the martial arts together. Minoru Sensei explained that he believed there was a way but he had, up to that point, not found it. He charged his son with finding the way to blend the arts together. This was the inspiration for Hiroo Sensei to develop Yoseikan Budo and what you see today is the result. In 2002, Minoru Sensei was living with Hiroo Shihan and after watching many workouts (something he demanded to do every day!), Minoru Sensei took his son aside and congratulated him for finally doing what had eluded the father for a lifetime, finding the way to blend the arts together in a manner that could be learned by the average student. During these years of development, the training Hombu in Shizuoka was "the Yoseikan" but it was the work of Hiroo Mochizuki that developed Yoseikan Budo and to honor his son, Minoru Mochizuki began to use the term in the later years in Japan.

Now, as to the aiki/boxing sparring, I say hurray for anyone trying this. We do this all the time in Yoseikan Budo, we work hard on maia and timing. Leydard Sensei is quite on point, if you allow that boxer to get those punches off, you arent doing it right and aiki is all about kazushi, maia (sp) and timing. Machi no sen, tai no sen and sen no sen are all key to sparring and self defense. In our competitions in Yoseikan Budo, we allow full force, full speed punches and kicks and strikes with the padded weapons. Suddenly, all the dojo time in the world is useless and you find out real fast if the techniques work or not. Now, we wear head gear with face mask, gloves, chest protectors and leg and foot guards because of course, you cannot do direct combat like that and then get up and go to work or school the next day so in that sense, it is not real world. But, it is as close as one can safely get to a no rules experience, in my opinion.

Yoseikan Budo is not Yoseikan Aikido. Yoseikan Budo is its own art developed by Hiroo Mochizuki based on many different experiences with karate (shotokan and wado ryu), kempo (the time the family spent in China), boxing (Hiroo Sensei became a gold gloves boxer), judo, jiujitsu, aiki, savate (boxe francais), and even tai chi, plus the kobudo aspects. Hiroo Shihan explained his belief that what his father did, Yoseikan, should never have been called aikido but would have been more correctly defined as a soft jiujitsu.
The development of Yoseikan Budo is the direct result of testing those skills against all comers and finding what works. It continues to be refined on a daily basis by Shihan, his sons Mitchi and Kyoshi, and the many other international instructors of Yoseikan Budo.

Hope this helps and again, sorry for coming on the thread late in the game. It is an interesting discussion. On a personal level, I have to comment that my experience in multiple aikido dojo over the years has been wonderful and made my Yoseikan skills much better but that the two arts are practiced by folks for very different reasons. Any reason is a good one to do martial arts and budo, the way of stopping conflict, is to be respected in all of its legitimate forms but everyone needs to keep in mind, to compare aiki, even different styles, and then to say which is effective and which isn't, that is not the humility any of us have been taught by our own sensei. Good discussion but, budo above all, we are all of the same tree - - - budo.

Humbly,

Phil Farmer

philippe willaume
09-12-2007, 11:35 AM
I think every school is going to be different to one degree or another. The question for every person is "What is the training goal?", followed by "How well does this curriculum serve the goal?".

It's difficult to comment without seeing it, but here for example you have 16 x 9 = 144 variations involving many situations which would likely not occur in a real confrontation, or which would be different enough to require radical changes in response. Who is going to grab both your hands, or one of yours with both of theirs?!? If someone were to grab your sleeve, it would only be so that they could rain punches on your head more easily. Such a grab when it occurs is simply the prelude to a hit a fraction of a second later. Beyond teaching basic movement principles, following this sort of curriculum for too long probably wouldn't lead to much with technical self-defense carryover. To be blunt, wristlocks and other standing armwrestling are best for convincing your friends you're a super-ninja, they are not of much real use against an opponent who represents a real threat. It's nice to know, but it's suitable for low-level or very constrained conflicts, and generally not worth spending years on unless it's typical for your job to have to try to control people this way. For anything worth worrying about, there is no getting around the notion of the importance of atemi, and being able to deal with more serious grappling attacks. Everything depends on the realism of the training method and techniques.

The important thing to consider is the answer to opening question of what your training goal is. If it's to socialize, get a blackbelt, or such things then anything will do. If part of the goal is wanting some transfer to technical self-defense, the second question is important. And if any part of the goal is to be able to deal with violent attack without hurting the poor thug, lay off the crack pipe and put away the Superman cape. ;) Violent criminals deserve to have their eyeballs crushed out of their sockets, and giving a serious attacker a millimeter of slack is just plain stupid. Let's not get too carried away with non-violent philosophy and looking pretty, Ueshiba and other top Aikido people made it pretty clear that the capacity for extreme violence is part of the deal. Without that it's not a martial art, and one thing we can be pretty sure of is that the pedigree of martial arts is life and death combat.



Hello Dan.

I think you are missing part of the point, in the respect that I do agree with a lot of your arguments in that last post.

So yes 3rd form is exactly that a prelude to being punched or stabbed or may be you are grappling standing up.
We train in that as well, as well we train against a pull and push for each attack. and you can do them static, in movement and leading.

But even with that this type curriculum is not really a gage of good self defence, as you rightly said it how you train in it.
And it does not replace pressure testing (active resistance and trying to counter)

It just gives a broader context on how to use a given “technique” and gives different type of resistance and shows that some are really contrived in a given situation. I think it is Roman or Don (sorry I can not remember) who said in their aikido experience to 3 or 4 form of attack using mainly the leading aspect from the technique.

Yes static i.e. uke grab you by the shoulder and then do nothing is not realistic, but uke can actively resist the technique (i.e. trying to prevent it to happens but not trying to counter it as that stage), and that point out to what you need to be in control of the technique from start to finish.

It kind of shows as well that if you do not hit him, nothing is going to work. Ie unless you isolate the arm from the body (by hitting the face in that instance), he can escape at any time, and it give you a chance of protecting you from his second hand, as we assume that he will try to hit us with that other hand or something in it (Which is why we do not attack the arm directly).

Basically the point of all that is to bring to your attention that there is a part of the opposite point of your views worth considering.
It is not the deadly for the street but there is aside of aikido that is easier to use and comprehend in terms of self defence until the time we can tenchin out of the way all the time and make my opponent cock up reliably.

On the violence side, well you are not going to get any flak for me, I am on record here saying that martial arts are designed to break people in a consistently repeatable manner.

That being said as far as your mugger is concerned, for me it is not really about what he deserves or what terrible upbringing he had, all that matter to me is that my wife deserves the joy my wonderful presence that very day. (Though I grant you that sometimes, she may actually ponder that very comment).

it is true as well that i am member of a drinking club with an aikido problem :-)

phil

philippe willaume
09-12-2007, 11:52 AM
No one is going to grab your wrist. They are going to punch and take your #@/8$ head off. Forget about wrist grabs. They serve no real self defense purpose.

Thank for that insightful view, Even I do not do whatever you though I did with my head, or I would earn lots of money in public displays.
Anyway, luckily we have punches as well then (pheew).

Not to be an arse, but I can se a few scenario when that would happen.
someone want me to stop drinking.
someone grab me so that is mate can clonk me.
someone want to prevent me to access my weapon (yeah baby yeah)
someone want to cuff me and I have not paid mistress Olga for the privilege.

But really, you know, first and second forms are a really good place to start, in fact it is so good pedagogically that I could almost believe that some put it is there purely for teaching purpose.

phil

philippe willaume
09-12-2007, 11:58 AM
Just for yucks, here's a classic clip showing how much time you can count on to do a lapel grab counter. In this case by the time the guy is grabbed it's already too late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKdZgeesw68

is that the proof that you do not need ground skill as it does not goes to grappling?

(sorry i coul not resist...)

Aikibu
09-12-2007, 12:02 PM
William,

I was reading an interview on Aikidojournal of Hiroshi Isoyama Sensei. Interesting enough he discovered that he had to make modifications to his Aikido to make it effective. Apparently he had never encountered trying Aikido against a larger opponent. Isoyama Sensei was teaching a class to American military officers who were physically larger than he was. When he tired to apply koshinage on the officers, he stated, that he found that they could just step over him, no matter how he try to apply the technique, he was not able to throw them. The height difference prevented him from getting into a good hip position. So he had the idea of putting them across his shoulders instead of across his hips, and that's how he started using those techniques. Another very important point, is was he more interested in a technique working, verses sticking to some syllabus that may have ineffective techniques. He stated, "I wasn't trying to be rough or flashy, I was just trying to get the techniques to work. Necessity is the mother of invention!"

I think that this is one of the points that Dan Austin was alluding to. Sometimes you have to adapt to the environment that you are in no matter if it looks like Aikido or not. If Isoyama Sensei was forced to adjust his technique to the point of not being Aikido, or maybe it is Aikido, but not the Aikido that some recognize, then perhaps this a lesson to be learned. If you have to box a boxer, which really is nothing more than atemi, then the concept that Isoyama Sensei stated, "Necessity is the mother of invention", is applicable. If you have to wrestle the wrestler then,"Necessity is the mother of invention", is applicable.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=102

Salim,

I understood Dan's point..However, it was wrapped in too broad a generalization about Aikido. Aikido (as evidenced by Stan's interview of Isoyama Shihan) has been exposed to the West for over 60 years now. It is not a static form in the least but something that can be adapted to flow with your Uke's Attack.

One thing I do agree with is you have to train as you would fight but you have to learn to walk before you can run here. Expecting otherwise is foolish. Excellence in Aikido requires more training time just to get the basics as opposed to Boxing or Wrestling. It's just that simple.

That's why most folks who do well in Aikido are grounded in other Arts and what I tell a beginner who's frustrated with all the "wrist grabbing" is to go out and learn something else like MMA. That way you can appreciate what our Aikido is all about.
I have a Godan in Goju Ryu in class right now A Sandan in Shotokan, A Sandan in Tang Soo Do, and almost all our Students have a background in something else...
Make no mistake Salim...We practice Aikido...:)

Respectfully,

William Hazen

Aikibu
09-12-2007, 12:08 PM
Hope this helps and again, sorry for coming on the thread late in the game. It is an interesting discussion. On a personal level, I have to comment that my experience in multiple aikido dojo over the years has been wonderful and made my Yoseikan skills much better but that the two arts are practiced by folks for very different reasons. Any reason is a good one to do martial arts and budo, the way of stopping conflict, is to be respected in all of its legitimate forms but everyone needs to keep in mind, to compare aiki, even different styles, and then to say which is effective and which isn't, that is not the humility any of us have been taught by our own sensei. Good discussion but, budo above all, we are all of the same tree - - - budo.

Humbly,

Phil Farmer

Amen...:)

William Hazen

philippe willaume
09-12-2007, 12:10 PM
Very interesting, I did not know that. England, not so bad after all <g>


The modern law on belief is stated in R v Owino (1996)
A person may use such force as is [objectively] reasonable in the circumstances as he [subjectively] believes them to be.
To gain an acquittal, the defendant must fulfill a number of conditions. The defendant must believe, rightly or wrongly, that the attack is imminent.
Lord Griffith said in Beckford v R:
A man about to be attacked does not have to wait for his assailant to strike the first blow or fire the first shot; circumstances may justify a pre-emptive strike.


Which is why we need those implants so that our thoughts can be recorded (by ourselves) for proof of correct behaviour <g>
.

Technically, the English common law assume that it did make sense to you at the time.

The bugbear is that it needs to make sense at posteriori for a hypothetic "reasonable man". :-)

phil

Ron Tisdale
09-12-2007, 12:31 PM
Yeah, well...if you should come across a "reasonable man" in your travels, please send him stateside...we are in grave need of them. Especially in government! ;)

Best,
Ron (rare find, that...)

philippe willaume
09-12-2007, 12:59 PM
Yeah, well...if you should come across a "reasonable man" in your travels, please send him stateside...we are in grave need of them. Especially in government! ;)

Best,
Ron (rare find, that...)
Would you you mind if we filled our seats first ......

phil

phil farmer
09-12-2007, 01:19 PM
What Ron said, a reasonable man please. First in politics and then on the street. Even a reasonable woman wouldn't hurt. And here in the States, in several states, laws have recently changed that now makes it possible to respond with deadly force based on feeling threatened with severe injury, no longer is the old, if you shoot him, pull him in the house. NOw, if he was in the house and is running across your yard, you can apparently shoot him. Geez, I wish they needed a social worker in Perth, I could stay with my friend Roy. Oh, wait, what about problems in parliament?????

Phil Farmer

akiy
09-12-2007, 01:48 PM
Hi folks,

Let's keep politics out of this thread, please. If you feel the need to discuss politics, please do so in the Open Discussions forum.

Thank you,

-- Jun

mathewjgano
09-12-2007, 02:44 PM
No one is going to grab your wrist. They are going to punch and take your #@/8$ head off. Forget about wrist grabs. They serve no real self defense purpose.

I think this is one of the most misunderstood aspects of Aikidowaza. Wrist "grabs" serve two main functions as I understand it: 1. they provide a way of developing musubi (an exercise). 2. they are suppressions of the arm designed to preceed a punch, etc.
I think you can see how beneficial it might be to suppress the arm which might block your strike to the head. Many people just grab and hold on (which makes you just want to hit them), but you're supposed to suppress...again, per my understanding.

ChrisHein
09-12-2007, 06:29 PM
I think this is one of the most misunderstood aspects of Aikidowaza. Wrist "grabs" serve two main functions as I understand it: 1. they provide a way of developing musubi (an exercise). 2. they are suppressions of the arm designed to preceed a punch, etc.
I think you can see how beneficial it might be to suppress the arm which might block your strike to the head. Many people just grab and hold on (which makes you just want to hit them), but you're supposed to suppress...again, per my understanding.

Well there is also, grabbing someones hand so they can't use the weapon they are holding. It's pretty hard to "punch and take someones @#$% head off" if they are holding a 2 foot blade that out ranges you and makes more power then your empty handed strike.

Gernot Hassenpflug
09-12-2007, 08:25 PM
Phil Farmer wrote:

"...finding the way to blend the arts together in a manner that could be learned by the average student."

On some level that is encouraging, on another that is a very disturbing statement, since by definition the average student has never managed to reach a high level.

Could you give concrete examples of basic exercises, particularly solo ones, and what practitioners are aiming for when they do these?

Dan Austin
09-12-2007, 09:24 PM
Yoseikan Budo is not Yoseikan Aikido. Yoseikan Budo is its own art developed by Hiroo Mochizuki based on many different experiences with karate (shotokan and wado ryu), kempo (the time the family spent in China), boxing (Hiroo Sensei became a gold gloves boxer), judo, jiujitsu, aiki, savate (boxe francais), and even tai chi, plus the kobudo aspects. Hiroo Shihan explained his belief that what his father did, Yoseikan, should never have been called aikido but would have been more correctly defined as a soft jiujitsu.
The development of Yoseikan Budo is the direct result of testing those skills against all comers and finding what works. It continues to be refined on a daily basis by Shihan, his sons Mitchi and Kyoshi, and the many other international instructors of Yoseikan Budo.

Phil,

Thanks for the interesting post, sounds a lot like JKD. :) I was reading the Wikipedia entry on Yoseikan with interest, particularly the following excerpt:

"Master Hiroo improved on his father's system by adding a common link to all of the martial arts Yoseikan Budo utilizes. This is the "vibration" or "undulation" produced by the tanden - and called qi by the Chinese - that are used in every technique (atemis, throws, locks, weapons, etc.) while allowing the user to increase his power tremendously while remaining very lithe and supple in all situations."

There is an earlier reference to "shockwave" movement as well. To my eyes this seems to allude very much to the ongoing discussion of body skills that Rob brings up. Can you elaborate on this and how it is trained?

Dan Austin
09-12-2007, 09:35 PM
It looks to me he had plenty of time to try not to be a drunken floppy lettuce. He could have easily got his arms up over the grab, stiffen his body, straight-arm, crouch, whatever. Lots of things to do, plenty of time.
But great video Dan! Thanks!

Poor bystander number one, clocked on the chin, dozy mutt.

Hmm, while there may be about second from initial contact to the headbutt, he's shoved back off balance instantly. The real problem is he needed to have his hands between them when the guy invaded his space. It's too close to reasonably react, he would have eaten an untelegraphed punch just as well (like the poor sap on the way out the door). The guy's a dick, but you sure can't fault his execution and getaway. :) My point was that the grab is a secondary issue to avoiding the coming hits, so training grabs without simultaneous strikes isn't setting the difficulty dial very high. Glad you liked it though. ;)

Dan Austin
09-12-2007, 09:47 PM
In the 1950's he went to France and Europe and introduced Aiki to the Europeans (with O Sensei's permission). Minoru Sensei took matches with all comers and all styles and learned very quickly that one style did not work with everyone. When he came back from his trip, he told this to O Sensei, that aiki did not always work and that he had used his karate, judo, jiujitsu, basically his whole repetoire (which was massive in the man) to deal with boxers, savate, wrestling, etc.

I forgot to add: was this the first time the phrase "Your Aikido may be ineffective, mine is not" was ever uttered? ;)

Aikibu
09-12-2007, 09:54 PM
I forgot to add: was this the first time the phrase "Your Aikido may be ineffective, mine is not" was ever uttered? ;)

Wow...Once again Aikido has found it's saviour...:rolleyes:

William Hazen

So let me get this straight If someone agrees with you it's ok if they question you or disagree with your hypothesis they get insulted...

How sad...

Aikibu
09-12-2007, 09:59 PM
With all due respect Jun..This is my last post on this thread. No point in beating a dead horse.

William Hazen

Dewey
09-12-2007, 10:14 PM
With all due respect Jun..This is my last post on this thread. No point in beating a dead horse.

William Hazen

Hear him! Hear him!

I have trudged through the entire thread now since it began, considered offering a reasoned response to many of the more outrageous posts, but decided it would be futile. You can actually see the decline and fall of Western civilization as the thread sprawled...

Dan Austin
09-12-2007, 11:29 PM
Wow...Once again Aikido has found it's saviour...:rolleyes:

William Hazen

So let me get this straight If someone agrees with you it's ok if they question you or disagree with your hypothesis they get insulted...

How sad...

Huh? It was joke - people here often bandy about a phrase along the lines of "your Aikido may be ineffective, mine isn't". I was musing whether Ueshiba said that when told that aiki "didn't work". Never mind, go look for the worst you can imagine in another thread, you ray of sunshine you. ;)

darin
09-12-2007, 11:48 PM
sunshine?

salim
09-13-2007, 12:06 AM
I forgot to add: was this the first time the phrase "Your Aikido may be ineffective, mine is not" was ever uttered? ;)
The interesting thing, is the lack of integrity that you find with some Aikidoist about the realities of Aiki. Minoru Sensei found out the Aiki does not always work, decades ago. How often do your hear that from today's Aikikai?

Dan Austin
09-13-2007, 12:30 AM
sunshine?

Yes. My joke was intended to be pro-Ueshiba - I imagined him to be the one saying his aikido is effective. William apparently assumed the reverse, then tugged on the moderator's sleeve and stamped his feet. In similar fashion he's been condescendingly abrasive in his responses to me from the get-go, based on *his* assumptions of what I must mean. Whatever. Just wanted to clarify that his reading was not what I intended, and despite any spin attempts my view of Phil's Yoseikan Budo post is entirely positive.

If Aikido training makes people kinder and gentler, I shudder to think what a sweetheart William must have been before. ;)

darin
09-13-2007, 12:57 AM
maybe he was "your worst nightmare...." Insert deep breathing, few grunts and snorts and Rambo music preferably the soft piano song played at the ending credits of First Blood with him walking off into the sunset. Would have rode his horse but that poor animal is dead from the beating it inflicted from this forum. If he were any tougher he'd rust. :)

darin
09-13-2007, 01:02 AM
That was a joke to lighten things up. Sorry William.

salim
09-13-2007, 01:33 AM
I found this interesting clip of Aikido being used, kind of MMA style fight. Perhaps this will give some insight to handling a boxer with Aikido techniques.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XVbS0xHCerw

philippe willaume
09-13-2007, 09:17 AM
Phil Farmer wrote:
Hope this helps and again, sorry for coming on the thread late in the game. It is an interesting discussion. On a personal level, I have to comment that my experience in multiple aikido dojo over the years has been wonderful and made my Yoseikan skills much better but that the two arts are practiced by folks for very different reasons. Any reason is a good one to do martial arts and budo, the way of stopping conflict, is to be respected in all of its legitimate forms but everyone needs to keep in mind, to compare aiki, even different styles, and then to say which is effective and which isn't, that is not the humility any of us have been taught by our own sensei. Good discussion but, budo above all, we are all of the same tree - - - budo.

Humbly,

Phil Farmer


hum I am not sure I agree with that at all.i mean I though the discussion was not really about legitimacy or effectivity but usefulness in SD or a fight.

I am the fist one to say that heavily ki oriented styles are very good at what they are doing and that I always enjoy taking a course when ever I can or in seminar.
After all "ki" is the engine of what we do in aikido. Like me you can be more than dubitative about the mystical aspect of "KI" but in any case it transfers in the real word as good body mechanics and integrated movements.

However, and on the same vein of what I said to Dan but from the opposite side of the argument, In order to demonstrate the influence of ki, you need to strip a given technique from the forced compliance elements.
IE Once you have removed the physical controls on uke (ie what forces him to accept the technique), and the technique still happens, there we have it. It has to be something else.
That de facto render the technique utterly rubbish from a martial stand point; Uke will have to accept and follow the technique to keep the connection.
And your opponent will not do that either in self defence or in match fighting.

That does not prevent ki or softer style to be totally legitimate and effective in what they want to convey.

Is there anything disrespectful or lacking humility by saying that?

One of Dan's points was that to be autonomous in self defence it will take longer in aikido than in MMA (striking + grappling).
I would say that the softer the aikido the truer that is. For harder style is would say it is probably about the same style or slightly longer, according to what we call effective and what is the enemy.
Again it is not saying that soft aikido do not work, just that it take some time to be efficient with it.

Phil

Aikibu
09-13-2007, 09:33 AM
Huh? It was joke - people here often bandy about a phrase along the lines of "your Aikido may be ineffective, mine isn't". I was musing whether Ueshiba said that when told that aiki "didn't work". Never mind, go look for the worst you can imagine in another thread, you ray of sunshine you. ;)
More insults...

Yawn.

William Hazen

If you wish to denigrate my opinion further please do so via P.M. :)

Aikibu
09-13-2007, 09:35 AM
That was a joke to lighten things up. Sorry William.

No Worries Mate :) It was funny.

William Hazen

Aikibu
09-13-2007, 09:37 AM
Done....

William Hazen

For Reals LOL

salim
09-13-2007, 01:50 PM
Hmm, while there may be about second from initial contact to the headbutt, he's shoved back off balance instantly. The real problem is he needed to have his hands between them when the guy invaded his space. It's too close to reasonably react, he would have eaten an untelegraphed punch just as well (like the poor sap on the way out the door). The guy's a dick, but you sure can't fault his execution and getaway. :) My point was that the grab is a secondary issue to avoiding the coming hits, so training grabs without simultaneous strikes isn't setting the difficulty dial very high. Glad you liked it though. ;)
Dan,

Are you familiar with this guy in this clip? I would be interested in hearing your opinions about the Aikido approach in this video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XVbS0xHCerw

mathewjgano
09-13-2007, 05:41 PM
I mean I though the discussion was not really about legitimacy or effectivity but usefulness in SD or a fight.

So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that ki-training essentially translates into good body mechanics, but that generally speaking, ki-oriented approaches don't teach one how to protect themselves very quickly.
If that indeed reflects the reality of most ki-based approaches, I imagine it would be as such only because they're almost exclusively dealing with very relaxed and supple "attacks." The energy can be intense, but in a totally different, very relaxed sort of way. The "circles" of energy are easier to draw out and expand, compared to a very tight, compressed sort of energy exchange more common to things like wrestling. So I think I can see where I might agree with you up to a point.
That said, I would say the ki-based approach requires greater timing...and perhaps that's more difficult to develop a sense for. I don't think that's necessarily cause to denounce aikido, or ki-based approaches as they relate to self defense. I know you're not really doing that, but I get the sense that's the biggest gripe people have against aikido in general, and that's what I'm addressing now. People seem to think of self defense in very specific terms, but from where I stand, with my set of experiences, you could say newaza-oriented BJJ (a very strong approach from what I can tell) doesn't protect you very well because, frankly, my friends growing up would have LOVED someone wrapped around one of their friends on the ground...nothing quite like a kick to the head or ribs at soccer ball level, or a shot to the head while they're raining elbows and punches down. We can qualify things about any given art which makes it seem relatively useless compared to another art. And, hey, I've heard from people I train with who i respect very much that much of aikido isn't very alive, so I understand where some people are coming from, but it seems very useless to go online and speak about "Aikido" as relatively ineffective for self defense when it's such a large group of approaches...including ki-oriented approaches.
Perhaps what I'm really doing is just complaining about people who don't speak specifically enough when making their criticisms. Aikikai is a big group, folks. Self defense involves more than physical ability...in fact I'd say physical ability is only the tip of the iceberg. Mental awareness and how you present yourself and where you direct your energies are a bigger part if the picture. Good self-defense begins long before you're jumped or confronted by a would-be attacker and in that light, all physical-based approaches seem to fall short in my opinion. Self defense is contextual. If I'm training in how to not-fight, that's self defense every bit as much as if I'm training to fight well. To me, an admitted neophyte, they just seem like different approaches and the love-dovey approach almost seems to look at the bigger picture...though not necessarily so. In my opinion, good self-defense, in order from most important to least important starts at the individual, then goes on to the instructor(s), then on toward style.
Anyhoo...I know I'm rambling and I hope you'll all forgive me for that. I also know I'm still very much a neophyte so I appologize if I sound like I'm trying to be an authority here...these are just the impressions of a guy who grew up with scrappers, but never got in a real fight himself so...for what's it's been worth.
Take care,
Matt

Dan Austin
09-13-2007, 10:53 PM
Dan,

Are you familiar with this guy in this clip? I would be interested in hearing your opinions about the Aikido approach in this video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XVbS0xHCerw

Salim,

Yes, I know of Jason Delucia. He was a Kung Fu guy who lost to Royce Gracie twice and took up grappling after that, he's fought lots of MMA fights. Seems like he's sincere in training a number of different styles including Aikido, but since I haven't seen his tapes and heard him explain the rationale for what he's doing it's difficult to comment. Some things look OK, some don't look as good as what a solid judo player could do. It doesn't seem like the Holy Grail of crisp, clean overtaking of the opponent's space with a decisive result, but it would probably be worth watching to see if his ideas click with yours.

philippe willaume
09-14-2007, 06:12 AM
So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that ki-training essentially translates into good body mechanics, but that generally speaking, ki-oriented approaches don't teach one how to protect themselves very quickly.
If that indeed reflects the reality of most ki-based approaches, I imagine it would be as such only because they're almost exclusively dealing with very relaxed and supple "attacks." The energy can be intense, but in a totally different, very relaxed sort of way. The "circles" of energy are easier to draw out and expand, compared to a very tight, compressed sort of energy exchange more common to things like wrestling. So I think I can see where I might agree with you up to a point.
Matt

No arguments from me there..


That said, I would say the ki-based approach requires greater timing...and perhaps that's more difficult to develop a sense for. I don't think that's necessarily cause to denounce aikido, or ki-based approaches as they relate to self defense. I know you're not really doing that, but I get the sense that's the biggest gripe people have against aikido in general, and that's what I'm addressing now. People seem to think of self defense in very specific terms, but from where I stand, with my set of experiences, you could say newaza-oriented BJJ (a very strong approach from what I can tell) doesn't protect you very well because, frankly, my friends growing up would have LOVED someone wrapped around one of their friends on the ground...nothing quite like a kick to the head or ribs at soccer ball level, or a shot to the head while they're raining elbows and punches down. We can qualify things about any given art which makes it seem relatively useless compared to another art. And, hey, I've heard from people I train with who I respect very much that much of aikido isn't very alive, so I understand where some people are coming from, but it seems very useless to go online and speak about "Aikido" as relatively ineffective for self defense when it's such a large group of approaches...including ki-oriented approaches.
Matt.

Yes you are right, and I am not denouncing aikido (I practice it….) or BJJ for that matter.
What really buggers me to no end is the unwillingness of either side to recognize the value of the other.

It does not make akido crap to recognize that pressure testing in combat sport or RBSD is a good idea.

It does not make akido crap or make aikido, MMakido to say that you need the same fighting strategy and tactics to pass a standing rear choke and iriminague or that if you can do a DLT and SLT, you can do aiki o toshi.

But really is it that hard to admit that both aikido and BJJ (and any combat sport for that matter) paradigm are different and some sort of limiting factor.
Yes aikido is good against several opponents, weapons and ambushes but it usually relies on over committed attack.

Yes combat sports are very good for the one to one in a controlled environment but you can only be sure that there was only a single opponent when the fight stops and no-one else chipped in.


Perhaps what I'm really doing is just complaining about people who don't speak specifically enough when making their criticisms. Aikikai is a big group, folks. Self defense involves more than physical ability...in fact I'd say physical ability is only the tip of the iceberg. Mental awareness and how you present yourself and where you direct your energies are a bigger part if the picture. Good self-defense begins long before you're jumped or confronted by a would-be attacker and in that light; all physical-based approaches seem to fall short in my opinion. Self defense is contextual. If I'm training in how to not-fight, that's self defense every bit as much as if I'm training to fight well. To me, an admitted neophyte, they just seem like different approaches and the love-dovey approach almost seems to look at the bigger picture...though not necessarily so. In my opinion, good self-defense, in order from most important to least important starts at the individual, then goes on to the instructor(s), then on toward style.
Matt
Yes, in fact the style does not really matter. I have trained under at seminar several aikikai senseis whose stuff I though very functional as well as very powerful ki guys.

However the not-fight approach is completely flawed and based on wishful thinking. It physically takes two to tango. But fighting is like sex you just need one to want it for it to potentially happen.
Violence is ultimately a unilateral act; doing you best for it not to happen is not enough to prevent it.


Anyhoo...I know I'm rambling and I hope you'll all forgive me for that. I also know I'm still very much a neophyte so I apologize if I sound like I'm trying to be an authority here...these are just the impressions of a guy who grew up with scrappers, but never got in a real fight himself so...for what's it's been worth.
Take care,
Matt
That did sound reasonable to me, and I had my arse kicked a few times…. Which incidentally does not really makes one that much more qualified than your good self.
As Confucius said experience is lantern than only light the path already covered.

phil

philippe willaume
09-14-2007, 06:16 AM
Salim,

Yes, I know of Jason Delucia. He was a Kung Fu guy who lost to Royce Gracie twice and took up grappling after that, he's fought lots of MMA fights. Seems like he's sincere in training a number of different styles including Aikido, but since I haven't seen his tapes and heard him explain the rationale for what he's doing it's difficult to comment. Some things look OK, some don't look as good as what a solid judo player could do. It doesn't seem like the Holy Grail of crisp, clean overtaking of the opponent's space with a decisive result, but it would probably be worth watching to see if his ideas click with yours.
Hello Dan I agree with you there.
On the top of that seems to be a demo Video, and if you ever made one, you surely know what a bugger it is

phil

Dewey
09-14-2007, 06:33 PM
http://brianpdewey.com/danhomer.jpg

Hmmmmmm. Increase my killing power, eh?

Roman Kremianski
09-14-2007, 09:03 PM
If you guys are interested in Jason's philosophy, search up a few of his threads here on aikiweb.

Mountains of respect for the guy.

salim
09-14-2007, 10:01 PM
If you guys are interested in Jason's philosophy, search up a few of his threads here on aikiweb.

Mountains of respect for the guy.
I think Jason's video shows some promising Aikido techniques that really could work against a real street altercation against a person who wanted to box. Really, it seems his approach may answer some of the questions about Aikido techniques against a boxer. Take a closer look at the below link.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XVbS0xHCerw

Roman Kremianski
09-14-2007, 10:26 PM
My post was a response to that link, as I've been a fan of Jason for a long time and have seen that video countless times.

mazhar dardari
09-15-2007, 05:29 AM
the Competition with Boxer require training in boxing, this the best way to know how move when you Facing Boxer, we in aikido Dardari ryu Practice boxing 2 days in the week To increase speed,Improve breathing and Development reaction.

Enjoy, http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=1121090&fr=yfp-t-471 :)

Dan Austin
09-15-2007, 01:06 PM
the Competition with Boxer require training in boxing, this the best way to know how move when you Facing Boxer, we in aikido Dardari ryu Practice boxing 2 days in the week To increase speed,Improve breathing and Development reaction.

Enjoy, http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=1121090&fr=yfp-t-471 :)

This is more like it. I of course agree with the need to train boxing to develop the reflexes. The move at 1:10 is the sort of thing I was getting at with using the Greco underhook as a transition point into such a finish. The moves at 1:37 and 1:56 I also like because I think throws involving direct manipulation of the head are much more reliable than most arm manipulations, they are aggressive in taking space and balance, and make it hard for uke to keep throwing punches. For me those points are the best I've seen so far in this thread. Nice work, thank you for the clip.

mazhar dardari
10-03-2007, 05:13 AM
This clips for free style in dardari ryu, and this kind of exercise for more experience, and good reactions.

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=1206542&fr=yfp-t-302

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6561466290707718305&q=dardari+ryu&total=6&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

skinnymonkey
10-03-2007, 01:03 PM
Very nice stuff Sensei Dardari. Thanks for sharing those vids!

DonMagee
10-03-2007, 02:31 PM
I think Jason's video shows some promising Aikido techniques that really could work against a real street altercation against a person who wanted to box. Really, it seems his approach may answer some of the questions about Aikido techniques against a boxer. Take a closer look at the below link.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XVbS0xHCerw

Looks like judo with punches or as I like to call it junches

mazhar dardari
10-03-2007, 05:43 PM
Very nice stuff Sensei Dardari. Thanks for sharing those vids!

you are welcome and Thanks for your comment Jeff. :)

salim
10-03-2007, 07:04 PM
Looks like judo with punches or as I like to call it junches

He's definitely using Aikido techniques. Perhaps modified and mixed with other Jujitsu techniques. Aikido for the ring would probably look like that. The purist Aikido methods hamper effectiveness in some instances. Isoyama Sensei always stated, "Necessity is the mother of invention"!

If you want the techniques to work, then it's necessary to modify or invent.

L. Camejo
10-03-2007, 10:15 PM
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=1121090&fr=yfp-t-471 :)Nice demo. But I don't see how this offers much regarding dealing with a Boxer. It looks like the typical Aikido demo to me with lots of atemi thrown in.

It would be nice to see a full or medium resistance training session (similar to what Jeff and Bob put up) using the "Boxing" training Sensei Dardari and others are promoting. Even the freeplay clips were with zero resistance on the part of the receiver so one cannot use this to judge any sort of applied effectiveness.

I'm wondering if anyone here has used those parrying drills to assist their Aikido in getting in on a good puncher. The drills are good but only helps ones Aikido if they improve ones chances to move in, break balance and apply waza. They work well for me in Jujutsu, but the approach and tactical set is much different imho

Just some thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

DonMagee
10-04-2007, 06:39 AM
He's definitely using Aikido techniques. Perhaps modified and mixed with other Jujitsu techniques. Aikido for the ring would probably look like that. The purist Aikido methods hamper effectiveness in some instances. Isoyama Sensei always stated, "Necessity is the mother of invention"!

If you want the techniques to work, then it's necessary to modify or invent.

Something I've always found odd. Especially after training in combat sports. Why not just train the way it works, rather then a way that doesn't?

Demetrio Cereijo
10-04-2007, 06:47 AM
If you want the techniques to work, then it's necessary to modify or invent.

Or at least adapt them to the environment. Dojo is not the ring nor the street.

Like a judo throw: The same technique a doesn't look exactly the same as in judo kata, randori, a mma match or self defense. There are common points but there are modifications due the context where the technique is performed.