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Chocolateuke
10-24-2001, 06:49 PM
any indiana jones fan would pick that qout right out of the third inidana jones.

My question is Do you believe it is possable to meet god face to face before you die? to really meet your creator?

I belive with all my heart that you can meet god face to face. :)

wot bout you?

Erik
10-24-2001, 06:56 PM
I've met my creators. I even have names for them. I call one of them Mom and one of them Dad.

Chocolateuke
10-24-2001, 07:00 PM
ok, good but what bout your Spiritual creator ( or do you not belive in god, which i am not against at all cause we all have free will.)

Erik
10-24-2001, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by Chocolateuke ok, good but what bout your Spiritual creator ( or do you not belive in god, which i am not against at all cause we all have free will.)

What makes you think god is the creator? Was it something you or someone else read in a book? Or, was it something someone told you about? ;)

Yes, I'm one of them atheist types.

guest1234
10-24-2001, 08:29 PM
:eek: What????

I thought you were a follower of The Great Pumpkin! You deny him now, this close to his feast day?:confused:

Erik
10-24-2001, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by ca
:eek: What????

I thought you were a follower of The Great Pumpkin! You deny him now, this close to his feast day?:confused:

Which is precisely the problem. 100's of thousands of his kind are soon to be slaughtered solely for the amusement of the masses. It's a horrible spectacle. It happens every year and I've never seen him extract vengeance upon the land. Give me some locusts, grasshoppers an angry ladybug or something.

As such, I've concluded he's not much good. At least most of the major religions have a long history of killing, stories of floods, parting oceans and other cool stuff. I've got a leader who is best known for having his kind carved into scary faces or eaten. Not good when you stack us up against the alternatives.

And all we've got is a pumpkin patch. The other guys have hell, heaven, purgatory and all kinds of other places to visit and send the bad guys to. We go to a pumpkin patch. Have you ever seen a pumpkin patch in the winter? Sheesh!

But I'm kind of disappointed in the other guys too. I did the church thing but everything was rooted in the past or the future. One day god will do this or in the past he did that. When I asked what he was gonna do for me today all I heard was, "pray as if everything depended on god but work as if it depended on you?" Great, I do all the work, god gets all the credit and if I screw up he's got plausible deniability: I didn't work hard enough. What a load of religion.

So I've been reading a lot of George Carlin and I like his idea of praying to Joe Pesci.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/carlin.htm

guest1234
10-24-2001, 11:37 PM
Joking aside, you are the first actual atheist I've 'met' (I think, some could be 'passing'), do you mind if I ask a question? I understand the disillusion with religion, but do you have any belief in an overall/grand design purpose for exisitence, any sort of source of mankind other than pure chance, or existence of any sort after death? I think it would take a lot of courage to live without a belief in a higher purpose of life, and the soul's imortality. I have trouble even trying to put myself in that frame of mind.

And not to forget the original, if Indiana-like question, Dallas: I am very glad for you you have such firm belief. I hope nothing takes it from you, and yet you are also strong enough in it that you can consider that belief from an intellectual point of view as well.

I am not so sure about face-to-face, if you mean it in a literal way. I do my best to see God's face in those around me.

Erik
10-25-2001, 12:30 AM
Actually, I might qualify as passing. Time will tell on that one. For a long time I've called myself an agnostic. There might be, there might not be, who knows. But, the more I look at it, the more I'm convinced there is none and I don't really feel obligated anymore to waffle in the middle.

I don't understood why there has to be meaning. Why couldn't we just be an accident, or planted by space aliens, the result of evolution or cosmic gas? None of that detracts from trying to do good things, caring for your neighbors or living a good life. And, they make just as much sense as the idea of an "invisible man in the sky".

Kami
10-25-2001, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by Erik


I don't understood why there has to be meaning. Why couldn't we just be an accident, or planted by space aliens, the result of evolution or cosmic gas?

YAMANTAKA : As the second atheist on this List, I'd like to put in my 2 cents...
Chance, working during BILLIONS of years, may create anything. The better things will survive, the poorly designed ones will die. That's evolution, no grand design, no will of God.
Also, human beings look for God, because they're afraid and because they want to shed away responsibility for their lives ("It's in the hands of God", "God willing", "If God Wishes"...). If there's no God, then we're responsible for our lives and for what we do.
Hey! That's pretty frightening!
By the way, I'm glad this discussion is so educated! I'm used to see that kind of talk erupts in a BIG flame war...:eek:
Congratulations and best regards
;)

JJF
10-25-2001, 05:23 AM
I guess you can all call me ateist no. 3 (maybe I should change my username). I have been wondering for quite a while what the term is actually about, and the way I see it an ateist is someone who does not believe in the existence of a higher power which controls our lifes and destinies. In that case I'm it! On the other hand I can not say that I believe in NOTHING. I call myself a christian in some aspects of life since I believe in and act upon some of the basic christian norms and ideas. Just take the 10 commandments. They are in a way the basis of many western cultures and influence our lifes a lot. I just don't believe that they were handed down to us from a higher being.

So what about O'sensei talking to the gods and feeling the divine spirit ? well I can't explain what that is about. I might be his way of explaining an advanced insight in inter-human and human-nature relations comming to existens as a result of many years of pondering related questions. I don't know. I seldom feel very enlighted and I seldom feel the urge to appeal to a higher existense. I just try to live my life in a good balanced way - respecting myself and other people to the limit of my ability.

Enough of this - sincerely ateist no. 3.

Dajo251
10-25-2001, 08:01 AM
Some might consider me an atheist because I don't believe in god, even though I don't believe in god i do believe that there are forces at work byond what we can see. My beliefes are based upon the statement that absolute power corupts absolutly, there fore even though I believe that there is more out there I do not believe that it is a god or even many gods.

Richard Harnack
10-25-2001, 08:32 AM
Whether or not a person has "met their god face to face" or is "ready" to do so is a highly individualized experience.

In the first, the experience of the "divine" or "something other", is internal, thus not subject to objective observation. Have you ever noticed there are more virgin Mary sightings than anything else? Yet when it comes to god, the signs are not as obvious. (Yes I know about the "rocks and trees, birds and bees, etc")

The real question which a person, regardless of their belief or disbelief, is are they living their life in a meaningful and positive manner. Thus how will they be remembered by their fellows and how can they honestly evaluate their own life.

I forgot, I am not really a deist, rather a personalistic humanist. :)

Chocolateuke
10-25-2001, 03:34 PM
gee wow this erupted a lot of peoples personal stuff in a flash!( not thats it is bad at all as long it is sivilized as mark twain would say!) anyhow, My goal in life is not to mearly believe there is a god but know. now I know for you all atheis types out there that, i might be like hitting you on the cheek with that statement. and the statement is assuming there is a God. I am not really a big fan of religion. accually I try to seperate religon and God. some may say how is this so? well there is a buddah type joke. God and Satin are walking along a road and a peice of paper rolls by and God picks it up and it reads religion and satin says, "I can start that for you."

so I believe that god never really made religion but it was Man who made religion. ( just me rambulling though.)

I have a few friends who are atheis and say that science makes more sencse in the creation of the universe. I aggre that the thought of things just accedently happening and the big bang swoops around and volia evolution goes on is easy to accept. I say evolution i aggree with but what made this Accedent? what made the sub atomic particals to react and form. sure things evolve ( other wise god would be bored with the same old) here is my big delema what created God?? it seemse atheis and God belivers have some of the same questions.

keep up the good work!

deepsoup
10-25-2001, 05:13 PM
Hi all,

I've lost count of the atheists now, but while I'd say I'm technically an agnostic, I'm so nearly an atheist you may as well add me to the list.

Colleen wrote:
I think it would take a lot of courage to live without a belief in a higher purpose of life, and the soul's imortality. I have trouble even trying to put myself in that frame of mind.
Well, I dont believe in that higher purpose, or the soul's immortality. Since I'm not all that brave, I dont think it can take as much courage as you think! ;)

I believe that, after I die, I'm almost certainly going to be dead, but I dont think it'll be unpleasant to not exist. (At least, I dont remember it being particularly nasty when I wasn't born yet!)

I once read an essay by Bertrand Russell called "What I believe", and I remember thinking "Yes, me too." I dont remember the details, but if you were to look it up, I think it probably still covers what I believe too.

I think that putting yourself in the frame of mind of someone with radically different beliefs to your own has to be one of the most difficult feats of imagination there is, so its not at all surprising that Colleen has trouble with it. I have trouble with it too. I think all people do, and whats more unfortunate is that most people never even try.

Sean
x

ian
10-26-2001, 04:45 AM
I remember a bloke I met in Israel (who swept the streets in Eilat) who was a born again Christian. Apparently he used to be a drunk and sleep on the beach every night - until God appeared before him and told him to stop wasting his life. Obviously made a big impact because he didn't touch a drop after that and got heavily into religion.

Also, I think some people worship 'science' instead of worshipping a deity. As a scientist myself I am very aware that there is no such thing as a 'fact' and most things we consider facts are probabilities. Also, there is a large assumption in science that if something happens once, given the same conditions, the same thing will happen again. Although this tends to bear out, we cannot prove it because we don't know the future. Also we are limited by our ability to know 'exact conditions'. Two books - Impossibility (which talks about the very real limits to human knowledge in a rigorous scientific way) and "What is this thing called science?" by AF Chalmers (about scientific method) dispel this myth that science represents 'reality'. Science gives us models of reality and nothing else.

For this reason I often see (some) Atheists as 'theists of science'. For me, I'm a Zen Buddhist/Taosit - and a large part of that is because it accepts that reality cannot be described in words, but only experienced. (In fact Ueshiba said the same about aikido, and God is supposed to be beyond description in Christian belief)*

*Therefore if you did see him, how would you know?

Ian

guest1234
10-28-2001, 12:53 AM
My friends call me 'weird', and I probably am, since when I find something that is new and/or different my immediate reaction is to try to see through the eyes of the other--maybe even try it. I am still wrestling with this one, even though it appears we've stumbled onto a nest of atheists ;)

I do not think I'd treat my fellow Earth inhabitants any differently---so I can see that atheists can be kind, moral, and ethical without distinction from those with spritual beliefs. I guess my stubling block is immortality. Even trying to put myself into a frame of mind that I don't believe in an immortal soul is scary---like the feeling you get standing on the roof edge of a very tall building. At least subconciously, I think that belief is what lets me face possible death in what I do for a living. Wow, talk about fragility of life, to think in an instant it could be completely gone, nothing left. Well, I've heard there are conspiracy theroists who think the idea of an immortal soul was made up by religion to get folks to fight, so I guess I can see how they would think that.

Chocolateuke
10-28-2001, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by ian


(In fact Ueshiba said the same about aikido, and God is supposed to be beyond description in Christian belief)*

*Therefore if you did see him, how would you know?

Ian [/B]

who said anything about being christaian?

guest1234
10-28-2001, 10:33 PM
I think Ian was refering to portions of the New Testament, for example John 1:18 and 6:46, 1 Timothy 6:16, or in the Old Testament Exodus 33:20. But I am guessing.
That he was using Christianity as just one example of this belief.

That we more experience (here insert whatever you choose, God/Allah/Nirvana/the Great Pumpkin) than see (Him/Her/It), is a common thread in the mystical aspects of any religion, with those mystic portions being in some ways more similar to each other (Sufism, Christian mysticism, Kaballah, etc.) in their beliefs than they are to the mainstream relgions.

ian
10-29-2001, 04:10 AM
You're right Colleen - you are a mind-reader; I was going to say that.

Ian

guest1234
10-29-2001, 09:45 PM
Nah...I just 'talk' so much that somewhere in all my ramblings I have a chance of getting something correct:p

You all are lucky, this is a favorite subject of mine and I am showing great restraint (for me) in my answers:D

Mike Collins
10-31-2001, 07:45 PM
I've just spoken to God, and he tells me he doesn't believe in Atheists.

I'm pretty sure there's a God (Though I don't know why I feel that).

I'm further pretty sure He's not me.

That is all of the religion I've needed for a few years now, and overall things aren't bad in my personal life.

And in those times when I remember to relax and let the Universe unfold, things seem to get better.

Ubaldo,

How can poorly "designed" things not last if there is no Great Designer? If they are poorly designed, does the designer get fired?

And who designs the things that do last, like sunsets? Are you telling me that waves are an accident? They are way too cool to just have happened. And sex? Come on, someone had a sense of humor and a dirty mind. What about sugar? Starbucks??? The whole idea of individuality????? No human was bright enough to come up with something that bizarre! Only God could have come up with something as perfect as a 1972 Chevrolet Cheyenne Stepside, Black on Black, with Dual Exhaust, Automatic Transmission and 350 V8 . God was simply ON that day.

Random accidents are all part of the grand scheme, designed to make you believe they are random. Without people who don't believe in God, and say so forthrightly, there'd be no one with whom I could argue, thereby making my belief in God stronger.

Or Not. I don't know.

JJF
11-01-2001, 03:33 AM
Only God could have come up with something as perfect as a 1972 Chevrolet Cheyenne Stepside, Black on Black, with Dual Exhaust, Automatic Transmission and 350 V8 . God was simply ON that day. So you blaim God for creating a huge heavy heap of metal that has been the direct reason for a number of people being killed or mutilated in traffic and a substantial amount of polluting fumes being let out in the environment.... Geee I can se why there's a reason for Thanksgiving....

Yup! I'm still an ateist. Though I must admit I share your appreciation of waves, sunsets, coffee, sex and some of the other things you mention - not to mention Aikido..... :D

Jim ashby
11-10-2001, 01:30 PM
The above is the title of Oolon Colluphid's third book. I am an Atheist. There is no God/ there are no Gods. There is no immortal soul.This is not a rehearsal, here and now you are alive. Deal with it.
Have fun.

Kami
11-10-2001, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Mikey

Ubaldo,
I don't know.

KAMI : When we recognize that we don't know, we are at the first step of learning.
Very good, Mikey! :ai:
Best

ranZ
11-11-2001, 12:28 PM
cmiiw, but the question was whether you think its possible or not to meet God before you die.

Shouldn't all the atheist not aswer this question? (*j/k*)

I think it's possible, coz he exists in many many forms.. not just the "human" form most of us always imagine.

Heck, why don't we just wait till we die and see what's it like.