kendo, Iaido and aikido [Archive] - AikiWeb Aikido Forums

pugtm

04-23-2007, 03:54 PM

Im a kendoka thinking about taking aikido. So i have some question first of all will it help me at all either way. Two should i just focus on one disciplin or both. I also heard that you need to learn kendo for aikido so i was just wondering. Oh yeah one more question assuming i am taking it how long does it take to master the basics and really get into it? For example in kendo it will take two years for me to get bogu and actaully start sparring but in Iai i got into it pretty quickly. Also will i need a new gi and hakama or will i be able to use my kendogi?
Please excuse me if i am not coming across clearly or if i appear ignorant. i have no knowledge of aikido so i thought i would ask.

ChrisMoses

04-23-2007, 04:13 PM

While many aikido dojos do some 'swordwork' none require kendo training. If you've learned the kendo no kata however, this will make picking up aiki-ken a relative breeze. For equipment, you'll most likely need to get a judo-gi, most places have people train without hakama until shodan. As for getting the basics and doing aikido, you will be able to participate in every aspect of aikido class much faster than you do in kendo. There isn't the same hanging out in the back of the room doing suburi like you see in kendo. In a couple months, you'll be in the thick of things with everyone else.

Kent Enfield

04-23-2007, 06:56 PM

Two years to get into bogu? That's a long time, even by conservative standards.

Anyway, as a kendo person, there's a very good chance that, while you'll probably find the aikiken--whatever flavor you're doing--waza interesting, you'll be frustrated with their practitioners. Aikido "swordwork" tends not to be. It tends to be an exercise using a prop for developing certain traits that are useful in taijutsu.

From a kendo perspective, a lot of aikido sword work is slow, over-powered, and full of openings. You'll have to resist the urge to lop off your partner's hands or to just tsuki them as they step forward. Of course, when it comes time to be uke for tachi dori, you can have a lot of fun. ;)

Aikido people who have sword training outside aikido tend to have less of these problems, and there are some lines of aikido weapons that are a lot better with regard to the above than others, so you may find yourself pleasantly surprised. But then you might not.

pugtm

04-23-2007, 08:10 PM

As for getting the basics and doing aikido, you will be able to participate in every aspect of aikido class much faster than you do in kendo. There isn't the same hanging out in the back of the room doing suburi like you see in kendo.
Well its not that bad im generally doing kirikaishi with other people and it is only that strict because our sensei's are all from japan. But im glad to hear it'll proceed a little faster than that. Is there anything else i should know as a newcomer or anything special i need to do?

raul rodrigo

04-23-2007, 10:29 PM

Anyway, as a kendo person, there's a very good chance that, while you'll probably find the aikiken--whatever flavor you're doing--waza interesting, you'll be frustrated with their practitioners. Aikido "swordwork" tends not to be. It tends to be an exercise using a prop for developing certain traits that are useful in taijutsu.

From a kendo perspective, a lot of aikido sword work is slow, over-powered, and full of openings. You'll have to resist the urge to lop off your partner's hands or to just tsuki them as they step forward. .

When my friend who was taking kendo took a look at our aiki ken, he had the same comments: full of openings and "illogical" moves that make sense only if you are trying to develop an analogous move for taijutsu. and certainly none of us had the sheer speed that he had developed.

pugtm

04-23-2007, 11:26 PM

tachi dori? can someone please explain what that means??
But still im glad to hear that ill have at least some of an advantage.
also another question how bad is being thrown on your back and head both me and my parents are kinda worried about that.

Ecosamurai

04-24-2007, 06:45 AM

Hi Avi,

I practice aikido, kendo and iaido and find them all very complimentary (though I don't have as much time as I would like to do all these things).

Aikido swordwork as has been said is quite different from kendo and should best be viewed as a method for learning body movement.

Not sure why it took you so long to get some bogu. My teacher is Japanese and had me wearing bogu after only a few months.

It's very common for people to practice both Aikido and Iaido or Kendo and Iaido. Aikido and Kendo seems to be a little less common. I think it's probably because aikido people aren't interested in 'competition' or 'fighting' on the whole and kendo people are less interested in aikido because they want to learn sword work more than anything else. FWIW I find that the most rewarding and informative combination for me has been aikido and kendo, and I'm glad there was no iaido dojo here when I went looking for one (which is how I ended up in kendo).

Regards

Mike

Ecosamurai

04-24-2007, 06:47 AM

how bad is being thrown on your back and head both me and my parents are kinda worried about that.

It's fine. Your sensei will teach you how to fall so you don't hurt yourself. If you fall on your head you're doing it wrong and it means you should listen to your sensei more ;)

Mike

pugtm

04-24-2007, 08:16 AM

ok and what is the meaning of tachi dori?

Dan Reynolds

04-24-2007, 08:29 AM

Tachidori is "sword taking"

Beard of Chuck Norris

04-24-2007, 10:49 AM

I do kendo and aikido too.

You'll probably feel awkward as hell at first but there will be lots of nice *clicks* in the brain when you see the same principals applied across the two.

BTW you don't wear hakama to begin with at aikido, get a judo or aikidogi as suggested as the kendogi will not last!

I wish you luck

Peace and love

Jo

Paulo Barreto

04-24-2007, 11:10 AM

AikiWiki description of TachiDori at http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Tachidori.:

The practice of taking away an attacker's bokken/bokuto while empty-handed.

pugtm

04-24-2007, 11:54 AM

as the kendogi will not last!
Why do you say that its a new kendogi and its lasted through several months of iaido and kendo.

Ecosamurai

04-24-2007, 11:58 AM

Why do you say that its a new kendogi and its lasted through several months of iaido and kendo.

Well for one thing beginners generally don't wear hakama in aikido, the iaido and kendo keikogi have no trousers/pants so unless you want to walk around wearing just the jacket...

The other thing is. How many times at kendo or iaido have you had someone grab your keikogi and pull you around like that. The himo just don't last that sort of punishment, they tend to get ripped off. In aikido people will be holding onto you and tugging the keikogi a lot and kendogi are just not made to absorb that sort of punishment.

Regards

Mike

Edward

04-24-2007, 12:54 PM

Well, I did Kendo for a few months and did find it full of illogical moves as well. First the stance is directed forward with the back foot positioned at an awkward angle which makes it very difficult to face several opponents. Second, they attack like crazy and in a very violent and aggressive way. Third, after they strike (hit or miss) they keep on trotting like a horse for a few meters which I found kind of strange.

Just trying to make a point here. Do not look at a martial art with the eyes of another. Each has its own perspective. As for me I quickly lost interest in Kendo as I found out it wouldn't be possible to study kata until a later stage (my main reason for joining in the first place), every body seemed very centered on competitions so I just quit.

When my friend who was taking kendo took a look at our aiki ken, he had the same comments: full of openings and "illogical" moves that make sense only if you are trying to develop an analogous move for taijutsu. and certainly none of us had the sheer speed that he had developed.

Ron Tisdale

04-24-2007, 12:55 PM

Do people grab your kendogi, twist it, try to throw you with it, etc.?

There was this REALLY big guy in one of the dojo I trained at...he must have been about 240, and really stable. Anywho...I went to do iriminage (poorly, I might add) off of a lunge punch. Well, I ended up doing iriminage to his dogi jacket...but not much else! Ripped it right off his body. But he was still standing there, wondering why it had gotten cool all of a sudden.

Best,
Ron ;)

pugtm

04-24-2007, 05:05 PM

As for me I quickly lost interest in Kendo as I found out it wouldn't be possible to study kata until a later stage (my main reason for joining in the first place), every body seemed very centered on competitions so I just quit.
what school did you go to? kendo kata and competitive kendo is almost always taught side by side. Also what you may have been looking for is Iaido or battojutsu which is only kata's and no competition. Kendo in itself is not a real martial tradition its more like a training regimen because during the shogunate swordsmanship was becoming too fanciful and it needed a down to earth training and conditioning system.

The other thing is. How many times at kendo or iaido have you had someone grab your keikogi and pull you around like that. The himo just don't last that sort of punishment, they tend to get ripped off. In aikido people will be holding onto you and tugging the keikogi a lot and kendogi are just not made to absorb that sort of punishment.
Mike
I didn't consider that, thanks
You guys should make a sticky for beginners with info like this. It's nice to be able to know something prior to entering the dojo and having that awkward phase were the sensei has to explain every little detail.

MikeLogan

04-24-2007, 10:16 PM

Kent Enfield

04-25-2007, 01:38 AM

Does Aikiweb have a counterpart web community in the kendo world?If it were a snake, it'd bite you.

Kendo World (http://www.kendo-world.com/)

pugtm

04-25-2007, 09:46 AM

Welcome, Avi. I guess that's the point of Aikiweb, to provide a bit of info not otherwise as readily provided just prior to entering the dojo of a an art new to oneself. I hope you find a great deal of information during your investigation of aikido, whether it's for a year or ten.
thanks for the reception

My primary reason for replying is that I'd love to get into kendo. Circumstances deter my involvement in aikido to a level I very much regret, and I find myself wondering whether this might be an opportunity to see what kendo might offer for myself.
Kendo is a lot of fun and very difficult. It is very different than most other martial arts and a lot less people stay. Im not trying to sound tough but the drop out rate is very high despite the fact that most took other martial arts prior to taking kendo. Finding a dojo alone is a lot tougher than finding an aikido dojo. Of course that is because there are only 8 million kendoka in the world most of whom are in japan. It is a lot of hard work and conditioning and a heck of a lot of fun. My life even outside of kendo really improved when i started kendo. for example my reflexes improved by leaps and bounds and so has my endurance and leg and arm strength(you try doing a 100 suburi a day and youll feel it too!)
Try if you can to get a Japanese kendoka sensei and also don't take kumdo(korean kendo) there is a huge difference.
ALSO 1 very important thing make sure you want to take KENDO and not IAIDO the two are very different. IAIDO or Battojutsu is the art of drawing the sword and then using it. It is entirely kata's and not actual sparring wereas kendo has 10 kata's but they are for teaching the basics of kendo. I take setei Kendo IAI and muso shinden Ryu and kendo at the same time since my dojo teaches both kendo and Iaido.

Does Aikiweb have a counterpart web community in the kendo world?
Yes kendo world is there but it is only a forum. What it is part of is the Kendo World magazine whose website has a ton of info. But to find a dojo you should visit the All united states kendo federation (www.auskf.info/) and also your regional kendo federation, AND do a google search. That is very important since it is so traditional we kendoka have not embraced the web all that well. Something i hope to change when i get higher ranks hopefully. My username on kendo world by the way Is pugtm.

It seems to me that the closest game in town(vineland, south NJ), is in Philadelphia. I suppose I'd take my own advice in the past, and look at the threads listed at the bottom of the screen to view related threads.
Im not sure what youre trying to say

also remember to ask around on kendo world many people know a lot more than me.

Rod Yabut

04-25-2007, 02:17 PM

Jun - how about a new poll?

Aikidokas who practice a second or third martial art and what art it is?

I started looking through the poll history from the bottom up and couldn't get past 2002 without my eyes blurring. I apologize if this was done before.

Avi, does your Kendo practice inlcude ZKNR?

Haowen Chan

04-25-2007, 02:43 PM

Try if you can to get a Japanese kendoka sensei and also don't take kumdo(korean kendo) there is a huge difference.

Kumdo is equivalent to Kendo, it's the same kanji, they use the same rules, they compete in the same championships... hell the Koreans won the last WKC (men's team).

You may be thinking of something else.

p00kiethebear

04-25-2007, 04:10 PM

A year ago I would have said do both.

Now I'm not so certain.

It may be prudent to, instead of taking up a second art, invest more time into the one you're already studying. If you've got lots of time on your hands to train, go ahead and take Aikido too. But if you're strapped for time and serious about development in kendo, you should focus on that. You can always take up Aikido later. you have the rest of your life to explore new arts.

Aikido will come easier if you already have a firm grounding in sword art.

p00kiethebear

04-25-2007, 04:11 PM

Kumdo is equivalent to Kendo, it's the same kanji, they use the same rules, they compete in the same championships...

All the kumdo I've seen has involved live blades and tameshigiri. Nothing like kendo. Was I seeing something else?

pugtm

04-25-2007, 05:19 PM

Avi, does your Kendo practice inlcude ZKNR?
Jodo? no ours does not.
Kumdo is equivalent to Kendo, it's the same kanji, they use the same rules, they compete in the same championships... hell the Koreans won the last WKC (men's team). You may be thinking of something else.
No i am thinking about kumdo. i thought i would have to go to toronto for the summer and the closest dojo was a kumdo dojo so i asked Ichimura-sensei(my main one). he said there is a major difference in philosophy and spirit. For example in kendo for a hit to qualify as a point in shiai it has to have spirit and intent. For kumdo if it lightly taps the men it counts.
All the kumdo I've seen has involved live blades and tameshigiri. Nothing like kendo. Was I seeing something else?
that would probably a koryu (iai/battojutsu) kendo is a shinai only discipline with bokken for kendo kata.

Haowen Chan

04-25-2007, 05:38 PM

I recommend if people want to know more about the difference between kumdo and kendo, go ask on the kendo-world forums.

There's some really iffy korean styles of sword arts that people may be confusing with proper sport kumdo which is equivalent ot kendo (with minor reigi differences). Haedong Gumdo in particular is not held in particularly high regard.

pugtm

04-25-2007, 06:40 PM

thats also true many people call what they do kendo. It's an advertising gimmick.

p00kiethebear

04-25-2007, 07:39 PM

that would probably a koryu (iai/battojutsu) kendo is a shinai only discipline with bokken for kendo kata.

No, these were events in Korea being demonstrated by Koreans under the name of 'kum do'

Being a battojutsu practitioner myself. I was very interested their styles' history. Their techniques also included what i might call... just weird. (vertical jumps in the air before cutting dotan.)

I've seen lots of good tameshigiri to come out of korea and these guys were some of the best. I'm positive that they called what they were doing 'kumdo'

Perhaps the term is thrown around more loosely to describe many types of korean swordsmanship.

pugtm

04-25-2007, 08:00 PM

thats also possible but jumping in the air is something kendoka never do! With tachi all the power comes from your feet and groin so disconnecting them from the ground is stupid. Also Kenjutsu is mainly based on cutting techniques with high mobility and aggressiveness. Once you jump you are committed and cannot change direction until your feet touch the ground. It's due to weird fancy stuff like this during the shogunate that caused kendo to be developed.

Kent Enfield

04-25-2007, 09:48 PM

For example in kendo for a hit to qualify as a point in shiai it has to have spirit and intent. For kumdo if it lightly taps the men it counts.You don't actually have much experience with "kumdo" people, do you? With the exception of some reigi, using blue and white to mark competitors, and pronouncing everything in Korean, kumdo that's affiliated with the ZNKR/IKF is identical to kendo. I've practiced with several, and they were all only as different as someone from a different dojo always is.

kendo is a shinai only discipline with bokken for kendo kata.Somebody better tell my instructor he's teaching it wrong. The regimen I for my group back in the States was bokuto for suburi, bokuto for kihon, and bokuto for kata, then doing shinai and bogu work. Every practice.

How much bokuto work one does will depend on one's instructor, unsurprisingly.

Kent Enfield

04-25-2007, 09:59 PM

No, these were events in Korea being demonstrated by Koreans under the name of 'kum do'.Sounds like Haedong/Haidong Kumdo, which is defintely not the same as "kumdo" affiliated with the IKF (the largest "kumdo" group in Korea).

While these days, if you say "kendo", everyone assumes that you ZNKR shinai kendo, the term is not exclusive or specific. In Korea, "kumdo" is still pretty vague with regard to what sword art it is referring to. Guess what Koreans call what the Japanese do. Guess what Japanese call what Koreans do.

It's not much different than Japanese in the first part of the 20th century, when the Butokukai decided to start calling it kendo instead of kenjutsu, referring to things like "Ono-ha Itto Ryu kendo" or "Jikishinkage Ryu kendo".

pugtm

04-25-2007, 11:00 PM

You don't actually have much experience with "kumdo" people, do you? With the exception of some reigi, using blue and white to mark competitors, and pronouncing everything in Korean, kumdo that's affiliated with the ZNKR/IKF is identical to kendo. I've practiced with several, and they were all only as different as someone from a different dojo always is.

No but that is what my shodan and hachidan sensei told me when i asked.

Somebody better tell my instructor he's teaching it wrong. The regimen I for my group back in the States was bokuto for suburi, bokuto for kihon, and bokuto for kata, then doing shinai and bogu work. Every practice.
Well i learned kihon with a shinai and also do suburi with a shinai but i guess you could do it with bokuto

pugtm

04-26-2007, 09:17 AM

oh yeah speaking of bokuto do i need to bring mine when i sign up for class?
Also is there a big difference between styles? Or is it like with Iai where it's just another interpratation?

Kent Enfield

04-26-2007, 07:01 PM

Or is it like with Iai where it's just another interpratation?Um, there are many different styles of iai, and many of them are quite different.

David Humm

04-26-2007, 07:23 PM

I study Aikikai Aikido - All Japan Kendo Federation Kendo and Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido and find all three compliment each other.

The problem is compartmentalising the differences to keep each art form true but, discovering, understanding and therefore benefiting from the similarities in the principles of each art is an excellent experience.

Briefly: I've found that iai being pretty much a solo endeavour has greatly improved my tenacity and will power, aikido and its ideology has developed my awareness of others, and kendo has developed my martial spirit and enabled me to test myself on so many levels.

Regards

kironin

04-26-2007, 08:13 PM

All the kumdo I've seen has involved live blades and tameshigiri. Nothing like kendo. Was I seeing something else?

You were seeing something else.

there are groups that do cutting competitions and there is some stuff around where they get acrobatic and flashy like some of the sillier karate demonstrations that have been going on for years. Some videos of stuff like this are possible to come across on places like youtube and very likely mislabeled.

pugtm

04-26-2007, 11:36 PM

so about my bokken first of all do i bring it with me to my first class?
second is an iai/kendo kata bokken ok for aikido?

Kent Enfield

04-27-2007, 02:03 AM

so about my bokken first of all do i bring it with me to my first class?
second is an iai/kendo kata bokken ok for aikido?These are questions for your instructor, not us. Sorry.

Ecosamurai

04-27-2007, 07:18 AM

so about my bokken first of all do i bring it with me to my first class?
second is an iai/kendo kata bokken ok for aikido?

Well, for your first class I'd say just bring yourself but it really depends on your instructor as Kent said.

For myself I could've turned up at the kendo dojo and worn my keikogi and hakama but decided not to, instead I just went in gym clothes. I suppose it was a bit of an attempt at 'beginners mind' on my part. I know that sometimes when people turn up to my aikido lessons wearing a keikogi I will immediately try to figure out what they've done before and how good they are so that I can understand what they need from me as an instructor (or occasionally what they can teach me as a guest!).

You might have a similar thing happen if you bring a bokken and it'd be a bit odd if the aikido instructor started to 'correct' your kendo. Which he or she wouldn't really be doing they'd instead just be showing you aikiken but if you're a beginner and you bring your kendo with you into the aikido dojo (and most people going from one art to another do this, including me) then it will likely be quite frustrating for you in the initial stages.

I'd say best to leave the bokken at home for now, it's always there if you need it, and if the instructor does want you to do some aikiken at your first session then they usually have a spare around the place anyway.

Regards

Mike

Ecosamurai

04-27-2007, 07:20 AM

I study Aikikai Aikido - All Japan Kendo Federation Kendo and Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido and find all three compliment each other.

Lol, we have to get together and exchange notes sometime Dave :) Me: Ki-aikido, All Japan Kendo & MJER. Except I'm still quite new at the MJER.

Mike

Franco

04-27-2007, 02:55 PM

Mike Haft:

So Ki-Aikido and Ki Society are two different things?

pugtm

04-27-2007, 05:07 PM

p00kiethebear

04-27-2007, 11:25 PM

i see ok thanks for the advice everyone. Another question how do rank work? what i mean is do you need a certain rank to learn different waza or is just that you need to be able to do them well and are capable? for example in kung-fu different belts are needed to learn different forms and you will not be allowed to learn those forms before you get the belt even if you are capable enough to learn them. is it the same in aikido?

Generally, the answer is no. Though I may be wrong, in my area, the instructors teach all techniques to all ranks saving some exception for more advanced weapons training.

From your first class you'll probably be doing (or attempting to do) everything the highest ranked members are doing.

pugtm

04-27-2007, 11:30 PM

thank g-d i hate places like that were they refuse to teach you until you pay for an expensive belt test... Usually only chinese styles though iv'e not really had any experience with this taking any budo.

Ecosamurai

04-28-2007, 09:20 AM

Mike Haft:

So Ki-Aikido and Ki Society are two different things?

Yes. Also no. Ki Society is the parent organisation of all ki-aikido. Not all ki-aikido is Ki Society.
For example, I'm not nor have I ever been a member of the ki society and yet I study ki-aikido.

Mike

Haowen Chan

04-28-2007, 09:36 AM

Franco:

Here's a list of the different organisations who practice Tohei-derived aikido.... the distinguishing factors being ki-tests, ki-development exercises, and usually some version of his 4 principles of maintaining ki.

http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Styles#Ki_Society.2FKi_no_Kenkyu_Kai

They all practice some form of Tohei-derived aikido, and all the organisations are distinct bodies not under the jurisdiction of the Ki Society. Despite the various (minor) differences in emphasis in what they teach, I believe the variation in individual sensei teaching style is greater than the variation in the differences between the systems.

David Humm

04-28-2007, 02:31 PM

Lol, we have to get together and exchange notes sometime Dave :) Me: Ki-aikido, All Japan Kendo & MJER. Except I'm still quite new at the MJER.

MikeHi Mike, sure any time. I host several seminars at my dojo through the year so any time you fancy gimme a shout. Bring bogu and iaito as well. :)

HL1978

05-01-2007, 10:38 PM

No, these were events in Korea being demonstrated by Koreans under the name of 'kum do'

Being a battojutsu practitioner myself. I was very interested their styles' history. Their techniques also included what i might call... just weird. (vertical jumps in the air before cutting dotan.)

I've seen lots of good tameshigiri to come out of korea and these guys were some of the best. I'm positive that they called what they were doing 'kumdo'

Perhaps the term is thrown around more loosely to describe many types of korean swordsmanship.

I had the opportunity to train recently with some kumdo practicioners. they were quite honest as to where their kata came from, with znkr setei being admitted as being seitei, and korean kata as korean kata. They have to demonstrate seitei in additon to korean kata and shinai (i forget the korean word for it) kendo for promotion purposes.