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gdandscompserv
04-16-2007, 01:09 PM
Something is seriously wrong. Are more people getting more violent? What's wrong here?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3045893&page=1

James Davis
04-16-2007, 05:30 PM
How could that guy have guns? Aren't college campuses "gun free zones"?

mjhacker
04-16-2007, 06:16 PM
How could that guy have guns? Aren't college campuses "gun free zones"?
I refer to them as "Victim Zones."

If everyone on that campus had been armed and trained, how many do you think would've had to die before this sonofabitch was stopped?

Mark Uttech
04-16-2007, 06:34 PM
Real things and events like this are real things that need discussion so the level headed ones among us can steer the rest away from the edge of the cliff.

In gassho,

Mark

mjhacker
04-16-2007, 06:46 PM
Real things and events like this are real things that need discussion so the level headed ones among us can steer the rest away from the edge of the cliff.
I have no concept of how to use logic to dissuade someone from doing that which is completely illogical.

Ketsan
04-16-2007, 08:52 PM
How could that guy have guns? Aren't college campuses "gun free zones"?

Only if everyone on campus chooses not to own or carry a gun. The kind of thinking that produces gun free zones is the kind of thinking that comes up with the idea that laws protect people, rather than simply specifying the level of revenge society will indulge in for certian behaviors.

In the same way guns are now illegal in the UK and gun crime has gone up by something like 500% since the ban. The only limit on gun crime is people's good will and the risk of getting shot. Unfortunately insane people tend not to be great humanitarians and getting shot isn't much of a threat to someone who's decided to shoot themselves.

Amir Krause
04-17-2007, 03:03 AM
Only if everyone on campus chooses not to own or carry a gun. The kind of thinking that produces gun free zones is the kind of thinking that comes up with the idea that laws protect people, rather than simply specifying the level of revenge society will indulge in for certain behaviors.

Even revenge is in the logical level of retributions. When talking of an insane person who kills himself at the end and cares for no-one. The entire concept of laws against the act itself is useless. During the act itself, only a counter force would be able to stop such an act.

In the same way guns are now illegal in the UK and gun crime has gone up by something like 500% since the ban. The only limit on gun crime is people's good will and the risk of getting shot. Unfortunately insane people tend not to be great humanitarians and getting shot isn't much of a threat to someone who's decided to shoot themselves.

Gun laws are not useless if they are enforced at a sufficient level. The problem in many modern countries is our tendency to ban any weapons on the one hand thus increase the work load the police is supposed to do, and at the same time we decrease the police force to "reduce the inefficient Gov. budget".

If the gun laws are truly enforced, one would expect to have an increase in gun crime, but mostly due to felonies related to the new laws, i.e. crime that is connected to the (now) illicit gun position and trade, while one should expect less robberies with guns etc. Obviously, talking of increases and decrease should be done given careful analyses of population rise and densities etc.
If there is no decrease based on the above terms, it means the law enforcement agencies are either inefficient or very underbudgeted compared to their tasks, nothing else.

On the other hand, a "Gun free zone" is practically impossible if you allow everyone to have guns outside it, even a secure prison facility has some failures regarding drugs and weapons, and I doubt you are willing to have similar levels of security around an educational "Gun free zone" ...

Amir

James Davis
04-17-2007, 12:14 PM
Even revenge is in the logical level of retributions. When talking of an insane person who kills himself at the end and cares for no-one. The entire concept of laws against the act itself is useless. During the act itself, only a counter force would be able to stop such an act.

With you so far.


Gun laws are not useless if they are enforced at a sufficient level. The problem in many modern countries is our tendency to ban any weapons on the one hand thus increase the work load the police is supposed to do, and at the same time we decrease the police force to "reduce the inefficient Gov. budget".

Regardless of whether the police can protect us, they don't have any obligation to do so. We are unable to sue police agencies who don't come when 911 is called, even if our loved ones are imprisoned in their own home, beaten, raped or killed. Protecting ourselves is the only option with which we are left, and plenty of people don't even want us to have that ability!


If the gun laws are truly enforced, one would expect to have an increase in gun crime, but mostly due to felonies related to the new laws, i.e. crime that is connected to the (now) illicit gun position and trade, while one should expect less robberies with guns etc. Obviously, talking of increases and decrease should be done given careful analyses of population rise and densities etc.
If there is no decrease based on the above terms, it means the law enforcement agencies are either inefficient or very underbudgeted compared to their tasks, nothing else.

For the most part, more guns = less crime. Look at what's happened in South Africa, Australia, and England when firearms were banned.


On the other hand, a "Gun free zone" is practically impossible if you allow everyone to have guns outside it, even a secure prison facility has some failures regarding drugs and weapons, and I doubt you are willing to have similar levels of security around an educational "Gun free zone" ...

Amir

We can't stop pot, cocaine, terrorists, or anything else from waltzing through our borders or coming ashore. If we make guns illegal, criminals will find a way to get guns.

Just for the sake of argument, lets say than we acquire a magic wand and get rid of every gun. That will then mean that every woman walking alone to her car is guaranteed to not have a gun. Every home can be broken into without fear of being shot. If you accost someone who has a small child with them, you know that they can't run very fast to get away from you. Being a criminal get pretty easy.

Remember, our representatives that tell us that they don't trust us with a gun usually carry one themselves, or hire a professional bodyguard who does. Apparently, they think that their lives are worth protecting.:rolleyes:

Oh yeah, and the Supreme Court still has set a precedent that we have no right to police protection.:disgust:

gdandscompserv
04-17-2007, 02:07 PM
So how are the Japanese able to keep their society relatively crime free?

James Davis
04-17-2007, 04:07 PM
So how are the Japanese able to keep their society relatively crime free?

Japanese people are more likely to change their behavior based on peer pressure and family honor; It's just the way they are. Conversely, watch some music videos and you'll see the "gangsta" life glorified here in the states. Watch a lot of our movies, and you'll see disregard for human life.

Strangely, the mayor of Nagasaki was just shot recently, despite stringent Japanese gun laws...:eek:

mjhacker
04-17-2007, 05:49 PM
So how are the Japanese able to keep their society relatively crime free?
Centuries of individuality-stifling homogenity and socio-familial pressure?

Crime-free, though? I guess that depends on which crimes we're talking about.

Gernot Hassenpflug
04-17-2007, 07:30 PM
Japanese people are more likely to change their behavior based on peer pressure and family honor; It's just the way they are. Conversely, watch some music videos and you'll see the "gangsta" life glorified here in the states. Watch a lot of our movies, and you'll see disregard for human life.

Strangely, the mayor of Nagasaki was just shot recently, despite stringent Japanese gun laws...:eek:

Crime in a society is quite reflective of that society, and not easy to compare with crimes in other countries. The level of crime in Japan is sky high. Much of it is simply not ever processed to make it into the statistics. It is institutional. It is hardly ever necessary to carry out such drastic crimes as the Nagasaki mayor's shooting when lower levels of criminal activity (threats, extortion, appeals to the shame culture whatever you want to call it) suffice to obtain the goals of the criminals. Being indoctrinated over generations helps too. Just as the indoctrination in the USA leads to the particular crime categories we see there. And this holds for each country.

Lorien Lowe
04-18-2007, 03:21 AM
James wrote:
...lets say than we acquire a magic wand and get rid of every gun. That will then mean that every woman walking alone to her car is guaranteed to not have a gun.

Do you really think that the creep at the edge of the parking lot is thinking, "Hmmm...I wonder if she has a gun..."?

gdandscompserv
04-18-2007, 06:22 AM
Crime in a society is quite reflective of that society, and not easy to compare with crimes in other countries. The level of crime in Japan is sky high. Much of it is simply not ever processed to make it into the statistics. It is institutional. It is hardly ever necessary to carry out such drastic crimes as the Nagasaki mayor's shooting when lower levels of criminal activity (threats, extortion, appeals to the shame culture whatever you want to call it) suffice to obtain the goals of the criminals. Being indoctrinated over generations helps too. Just as the indoctrination in the USA leads to the particular crime categories we see there. And this holds for each country.
When was the last time you were a victim of crime in Japan and what was it's nature Gernot?

Hogan
04-18-2007, 09:04 AM
James wrote:
...lets say than we acquire a magic wand and get rid of every gun. That will then mean that every woman walking alone to her car is guaranteed to not have a gun.

Do you really think that the creep at the edge of the parking lot is thinking, "Hmmm...I wonder if she has a gun..."?

If you were a criminal, would you be more likely to attack someone who you KNOW is not armed or one who MAY be armed? Would you take that chance?

Fact is that cities that have required gun ownership have seen their crime rates go down. Go figure.

Fact is that countries that have banned guns have seen their crime rates go through the roof - like Britain & Australia. Go figure.

dbotari
04-18-2007, 11:21 AM
Fact is that cities that have required gun ownership have seen their crime rates go down. Go figure.



Source? Which cities require gun ownership?

James Davis
04-18-2007, 12:46 PM
Do you really think that the creep at the edge of the parking lot is thinking, "Hmmm...I wonder if she has a gun..."?

It depends on how smart he is and whether he's been shot at before.;)

What every scumbag thinks about before doing something horrible is whether he can get away with it or not.

Hogan
04-18-2007, 01:18 PM
Source? Which cities require gun ownership?

Kenesaw, GA was the 1st city I believe, in 1982. Their crime rate went down afterwards. Other cities followed at various years - how many I do not know; throughout the yrs I have remembered various cities here & there adopting the same type of law. I don't think there is one source of information compiling the cities that have done so.

Chuck Clark
04-18-2007, 01:21 PM
What every scumbag thinks about before doing something horrible is whether he can get away with it or not.

Hello James,

I think there's also many instances of people that don't have any ideas about "getting away with it" but instead, for whatever reason seems justifiable in their minds, they've decided they are willing to die to accomplish their goal. Then there's also the ones that haven't considered what they're doing until after the fact, if ever.

We are all at risk all of the time and must learn to deal with it appropriately.

dbotari
04-18-2007, 02:29 PM
Kenesaw, GA was the 1st city I believe, in 1982. Their crime rate went down afterwards. Other cities followed at various years - how many I do not know; throughout the yrs I have remembered various cities here & there adopting the same type of law. I don't think there is one source of information compiling the cities that have done so.

So am I to understand that you are required to own a gun? Everyone in the city? I find that simply amazing!

Hogan
04-18-2007, 02:52 PM
So am I to understand that you are required to own a gun? Everyone in the city? I find that simply amazing!

Each household is required - not exactly every person, but each household. Amazing but their crime rate has dropped. Those pesky burglers went elsewhere. Although I am not sure if that would work in certain areas of the country... certain towns & regions have more respect for life than some other towns... I live in a big city where the road rage I have witnessed would have probably resulted in someone being killed by the other...

Additionally, Switzerland, as you probably know, has the same requirement because everyone is part of their 'militia', much like every male here was considered to be a part of at the time of the US constitution was written, & I don't think their crime rate is huge.

I'm told by other gun nut friends of mine that there are a couple of towns in one western state also, I & thought a city in IL did as well, but still checking.

One person said that, although not law, their small secluded town 'encourages' each household to have one for protection as their county sheriff is 30 minutes away & have had budget cuts.

James Davis
04-18-2007, 05:43 PM
Hello James,

I think there's also many instances of people that don't have any ideas about "getting away with it" but instead, for whatever reason seems justifiable in their minds, they've decided they are willing to die to accomplish their goal. Then there's also the ones that haven't considered what they're doing until after the fact, if ever.

We are all at risk all of the time and must learn to deal with it appropriately.

I understand, Sir. When Lorien made mention of the "creep at the edge of the parking lot", I thought of the rapist/mugger type scenario where the crime is premeditated and someone is actively looking for a victim. I hadn't considered the behavior being impulsive.

I really liked the seminar in Orlando. I hope to train with you again some day.

Take care, Sensei. :)

Kevin Wilbanks
04-18-2007, 10:27 PM
Something is seriously wrong. Are more people getting more violent? What's wrong here?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3045893&page=1

I'd say the main thing that is wrong here is the public being so easily induced to become hysterical by tabloid-style mass media sensationalism. The problem is lack of perspective and ignorance of mathematics. Shooting rampages may be increasing somewhat, though I'm not sure even that is true. Nonetheless, it is not significant on a national scale, and certainly not worth getting everyone's knickers twisted up like I'm seeing. On a pure numbers basis, you are at least 18 times more likely to be hit by lightning than killed in a shooting rampage. This kind of thing would have to happen more than 8 times per day just to equal deaths from cardiovascular disease, a large portion of which can be considered self-inflicted.

Yes, shooting rampages are bad, and reasonable measures should be taken to prevent them. And, yes, it does appear that civilization is deteriorating. However, I'd say the media circus and the sheep-like, perspectiveless reaction of the public is much more worrisome than the incident itself.

gdandscompserv
04-18-2007, 10:39 PM
IThe problem is lack of perspective and ignorance of mathematics.
Ok...maybe this will help our perspective and ignorance.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/04/17/victims600.jpg

Kevin Wilbanks
04-19-2007, 12:19 AM
Excellent! Looks like you should get a job for a major media outlet, or maybe The Enquirer or Star.

I wanted to post, as a rebuttal, 2.4 million dots. This would represent how many people, with mug shots no less touching I'm sure, die each year in the US. Unfortunately, my high-res wide-screen monitor only has about 1 million pixels...

mjhacker
04-19-2007, 12:24 AM
Ok...maybe this will help our perspective and ignorance.
While I appreciate the sentiment, I think you're mistaking emotion for education.

Mark Uttech
04-19-2007, 04:42 AM
In the Agamma Sutra, the Buddha teaches about four kinds of horses; there is the one that runs upon seeing the shadow of the whip, the one that runs when the whip touches a hair, the one that runs when the whip touches its flesh, and the one that doesn't run until the lash of the whip goes to its very bones.
This has been compared to hearing about a shooting in another country, a shooting in one's own country, a shooting in one's family, and finally, getting shot at.
No one really wants to be the fourth horse.

In gassho,

Mark

DonMagee
04-19-2007, 06:59 AM
How could that guy have guns? Aren't college campuses "gun free zones"?

Not in Michigan, we allow you to carry guns on all but public school property. People carry guns on this campus all the time.

Gernot Hassenpflug
04-19-2007, 08:41 AM
I used to carry various firearms to campus occasionally, not that I could lovingly unwrap it to spice up an otherwise boring lecture, but because of work or errands after classes, or even more pertinently, to take to the shooting club meetings on campus where we could do everything short of discharging a firearm. Most common was use of the reloading press. As far as I know, there aren't many campus massacres in my country. Family killings are more the in thing, that's the way crazies there act out their craziness given their cultural heritage. Each country has its own way to do this.

Kevin Wilbanks
04-19-2007, 10:57 AM
In the Agamma Sutra, the Buddha teaches about four kinds of horses; there is the one that runs upon seeing the shadow of the whip, the one that runs when the whip touches a hair, the one that runs when the whip touches its flesh, and the one that doesn't run until the lash of the whip goes to its very bones.
This has been compared to hearing about a shooting in another country, a shooting in one's own country, a shooting in one's family, and finally, getting shot at.
No one really wants to be the fourth horse.

In gassho,

Mark

I heard this presented differently, by Shunryu Suzuki. Although when we hear this, we tend to want to be the first or best horse, the worst horse is actually the best horse. When it finally learns the lesson, it knows it down to its bones...

gdandscompserv
04-19-2007, 06:44 PM
While I appreciate the sentiment, I think you're mistaking emotion for education.
Why do you think that?

Hogan
04-20-2007, 10:39 AM
So am I to understand that you are required to own a gun? Everyone in the city? I find that simply amazing!

Here is a story about Kenesaw I just saw:
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55288

jennifer paige smith
05-03-2007, 10:30 AM
Ok...maybe this will help our perspective and ignorance.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/04/17/victims600.jpg

If this type of imagery stimulates your concience and your intelligence then please tune into PBS McNeil Leher News Hour every night and watch the faces of the soldiers who have lost their lives in Iraq that day. I feel they deserve our attention and respect for their contribution to our international process.

gdandscompserv
05-03-2007, 11:04 AM
If this type of imagery stimulates your concience and your intelligence then please tune into PBS McNeil Leher News Hour every night and watch the faces of the soldiers who have lost their lives in Iraq that day. I feel they deserve our attention and respect for their contribution to our international process.
That is a good idea Jen. I am reminded on a daily basis of the sacrifices our men and women in uniform make. I deal with it at work so I don't really feel the need to watch it on TV. Nothing like seeing a military vehicle, up close and personal, with a large hole blown in the side/bottom, to remind one of the sacrifices being made. Sometimes I think those vehicles should come in for repair with a photo album of those who were injured or lost their lives. Maybe then we would do a better job of supporting them.

Lorien Lowe
05-03-2007, 08:13 PM
It depends on how smart he is and whether he's been shot at before.;)
What every scumbag thinks about before doing something horrible is whether he can get away with it or not.


If you were a criminal, would you be more likely to attack someone who you KNOW is not armed or one who MAY be armed? Would you take that chance?

Let me put it another way, then. Do you think that the creep at the edge of the parking lot, watching me go out to my car, is thinking, 'Hmmm, I wonder if she has a black belt in aikido...?"

The fact is, I do. More importantly, however, I stick to well-lit areas and make sure that I have my keys in my hand and am aware of my surroundings. Just as importantly, I'm willing to fight to the point of serious damage to someone else if I'm attacked. I remember a statistic thrown about a year or so ago that something like 3/4 of women attacked by a stranger - women mostly without formal training - manage to fight off their attacker. Yet women are still attacked. What kind of statistic would it take for male attackers to start giving up?

Requiring a gun in every household may lower the home invasion rate, but women will still be attacked in parking lots until a significant enough proportion of them are willing to fight/shoot/whatever. It's legal in this country to carry a gun, but how many people actually carry guns? How many of them carry their gun in easy access? How many of them are willing to actually shoot someone after they pull their gun out? IIrc the statistics show that the person most likely to be shot by a personal firearm is the owner of the firearm.

Hogan
05-04-2007, 11:25 AM
Let me put it another way, then. Do you think that the creep at the edge of the parking lot, watching me go out to my car, is thinking, 'Hmmm, I wonder if she has a black belt in aikido...?"

Criminals probably don't even know the word 'aikido' - and they aren't going to be afraid of it, either; they will however, be afraid of a gun. I have a black belt in aikido as well, & even I'm not afraid of someone who also has a black belt.

...It's legal in this country to carry a gun, but how many people actually carry guns?
Many - 48 states allow concealed carry.

..How many of them are willing to actually shoot someone after they pull their gun out?
People who carry concealed probably already know how to use it, esp. since a self-defense course is required prior to issue. In other words, people who carry it are most likely people who will use it if confronted.

... IIrc the statistics show that the person most likely to be shot by a personal firearm is the owner of the firearm.
For situations where the gun accidently goes off during fooling around or cleaning or leaving it in the open where kids can get it, sure I would believe that. For situations where the gun owner is confronted by a criminal, I would bet it's the other way around.

James Davis
05-04-2007, 11:47 AM
More importantly, however, I stick to well-lit areas and make sure that I have my keys in my hand and am aware of my surroundings. Just as importantly, I'm willing to fight to the point of serious damage to someone else if I'm attacked.
Great!:)

I remember a statistic thrown about a year or so ago that something like 3/4 of women attacked by a stranger - women mostly without formal training - manage to fight off their attacker. Yet women are still attacked. What kind of statistic would it take for male attackers to start giving up?
100% scumbag mortality rate.

Requiring a gun in every household may lower the home invasion rate, but women will still be attacked in parking lots until a significant enough proportion of them are willing to fight/shoot/whatever.



Agreed.

In my opinion, we should also look out for each other, and not just the people we know. If you're armed, or trained for unarmed defense, look out for the people that are around that may not have these means of defense.

Be the change you wanna see, yada yada yada.:p :D

Lorien Lowe
05-09-2007, 03:06 AM
Criminals probably don't even know the word 'aikido' - and they aren't going to be afraid of it, either; they will however, be afraid of a gun....People who carry concealed probably already know how to use it, esp. since a self-defense course is required prior to issue. In other words, people who carry it are most likely people who will use it if confronted.
this assumes
1)that they have time to draw and aim the gun before the bad guy gets them (gun in zipped purse?)
and
2)that they are honestly willing to shoot someone. Bad guy, at this point, is likely in a semi-verbal predatory mode, reading body language more than listening to words. He's already willing to think that women are weak (he wouldn't be attacking otherwise), and there's a good chance he'll notice her hesitation and/or conclude that she's incapable of shooting on his own.

IF she's willing to kill someone with a gun (or has excellent aim and is willing to shoot out his knees) and IF she has ready access to it, then yes - guns are great equalizers. They are not, however, the cure-all for crime that some people are making them out to be.

James Davis
05-09-2007, 12:51 PM
this assumes
1)that they have time to draw and aim the gun before the bad guy gets them (gun in zipped purse?)
and

It is illegal (at least in Florida) to draw your pistol and threaten someone with it, regardless of the danger you think you're in. If you're drawing, chances are pretty certain that you're shooting. There's nothing illegal about pointing a purse at someone, though.;) If my keeping my eyes open alerts me to the presence of someone I don't know that I think may be a problem, I'm putting my hand in the bag that I carry. Let them draw their own conclusions about what's in the bag.

Why draw? Put a hole in the purse! Purses are replaceable. You're not.

2)that they are honestly willing to shoot someone. Bad guy, at this point, is likely in a semi-verbal predatory mode, reading body language more than listening to words. He's already willing to think that women are weak (he wouldn't be attacking otherwise), and there's a good chance he'll notice her hesitation and/or conclude that she's incapable of shooting on his own.
Pretty much everybody who bothers with the concealed carry course already thinks it wise to arm themselves. The course instructor made it pretty clear that we should be ready to do whatever it takes to get home alive.

IF she's willing to kill someone with a gun (or has excellent aim and is willing to shoot out his knees) and IF she has ready access to it, then yes - guns are great equalizers.
Excellent aim and lots of time! I know cops who take careful aim at a stationary, coiled up, rattlesnake that can't hit its head.

Center mass.

If someone just wants your money, he'll panhandle. If someone wants to hurt, or kill, or kidnap, then he's a danger to the people around him.

Chances are that there's no time to discuss, bargain, or take careful aim. People with shot out knees sue the people that successfully defended themselves. And win.:disgust:
They are not, however, the cure-all for crime that some people are making them out to be.
There is no cure-all. I wish that there was. Statistically speaking, owning a firearm to defend your home makes sense. The media, for the most part, is only interested in reporting accidental deaths of minors, not people defending their lives or their homes.

When the press reports statistics of minors being killed by guns, it includes gang members who are actively killing each-other. Nothing accidental about that.
When the press reports handgun deaths in America, they're including people who are shot by police officers! There is an active bias against guns and their owners in the media. We have to look hard to find the real truth.:straightf

jennifer paige smith
05-10-2007, 10:52 AM
That is a good idea Jen. I am reminded on a daily basis of the sacrifices our men and women in uniform make. I deal with it at work so I don't really feel the need to watch it on TV. Nothing like seeing a military vehicle, up close and personal, with a large hole blown in the side/bottom, to remind one of the sacrifices being made. Sometimes I think those vehicles should come in for repair with a photo album of those who were injured or lost their lives. Maybe then we would do a better job of supporting them.

I deal with fighting and violence teaching Aikido classes to at-risk youth who want to remove my head daily and I don't really care for discussions about is 'aikido real on the street' for a similar reason. Point well made ,point well taken.

Although this is slightly off subject, the following intent is not; In my personal experience individuals are being very supportive of our troops and other military personnel involved in this crisis.IMNSHO: The strategy of our administration could use some pointers from this website and members thereof about engagement and dealing with our fallen brothers and sisters; (Living and Dead). We can support our troops by holding our government up to our standards and expectations of integrity and decency (sorry about the catch words) and caring for them honestly and with the best care our free market $ can buy ( not Walter Reed:grr: ). Sorry to move away from the conversation, but it does say people going nuts.

Gernot Hassenpflug
05-11-2007, 01:20 AM
So how many attacks and violent confrontations will there be if *all* scumbags become scared because the righteous ones have as good or better weaponry? A possible answer: all those perpetuated by people who do not care about the consequences of their actions, believe in their actions, misjudged the opponents, are no longer on the same level as rationality as the rest of us. And all those scumbags who now get their advantage a different way - there is always a possibility to negate another's strength and take advantage.

Mark Uttech
05-11-2007, 07:37 AM
I deal with fighting and violence teaching Aikido classes to at-risk youth who want to remove my head daily and I don't really care for discussions about is 'aikido real on the street' for a similar reason. Point well made ,point well taken.

I seem to remember reading of O Sensei saying that "aikido should not be taught to hooligans." So I am curious. How do you deal with youth who want to remove your head daily?

In gassho,

Mark

jennifer paige smith
05-11-2007, 10:09 AM
I seem to remember reading of O Sensei saying that "aikido should not be taught to hooligans." So I am curious. How do you deal with youth who want to remove your head daily?

In gassho,

Mark

I like the question. I ask myself some version of it frequently.

As for hooligans:
I was one so I have a wide radar on 'which level of hooligan are you'?

In my experience, the techniques I teach these kids either are:
1) less-violent and more creatively stimulating responses than they would have chosen otherwise ( for the rougher of the crowd).
2) more powerful and connected methods to engage with others than they would have chosen otherwise ( for the meeker of the crowd).

O'Sensei said 'Aikido is medicine for a sick world.'
and
'Everyone has a body that can be trained and a spirit that can be polished'.

Because I have been trained so well by my teachers and training partners I am the one who is responsible for practicing integrous aikido. I am the one who is responsible for holding peace. I am the one who is responsible for choosing exercises based on intuition and information about the kids level of aggression and I am the one who is fundamentally using Take musu Aiki to create situations of learning in a sometimes crazy environment. I model an alternative to a life of hardness. And I have to blend to reach them and I have to be strong enough in my principles of practice not to be concerned that I will lose myself or my principles in the process.
In some way, I allow the kids to get close enough to take off my head so I can engage them in a very close, very adrenalized situation; that is how I blend with their outside lives so I can get inside with something powerful, mysterious and deeply stimulating to their 'truth, goodness, and beauty."

Through all of my training I am courageous enough to bring this teaching into an alive environment. An environment where I USED TO BE ON THE 'OTHER SIDE'.

Terry Dobson quotes Raymond Chandler in the book It's A lot Like Dancing' "But down these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid."

Terry said, 'I don't know if I could ever fill the role as chief (because I'm too mean, essentially). I guess maybe through all of his good training and effort and mine I (jen) became just 'not mean enough' and I can carry on the mission.

I pray doing aikido techniques will lead to them practicing aikido in their daily lives. I'll never know if I don't offer it to them. In my vision, for them, It can only help.

I hope this helps with some perspective about my work and maybe I answered, at least, part of your question.

Good help, I hope.
jen

Mark Uttech
05-13-2007, 02:48 PM
A very good helpful response. I consider myself lucky to have met Terry Dobson sensei and even to have been his uke for his famous "hit me in the head" demonstration. I was facing an aging man with deep purple feet, and he was telling me to attack shomenuchi, to "hit him in the head". I stopped at the last second before connection, only to receive the rebuke: "is that all you got? Is that the best you can do? If you can't muster up the courage to hit me i the head, you can go sit down and I'll call someone else up." With that last rebuke I decided I was going to take him up on it and split his head in half. And, right in the midst of my hell-bent for leather attack, he suddenly roared: "STOP!" at me, and my arm froze in mid-air. Then he faced the rest of the class and said: "Pair up. That's the practice."

In gassho,

Mark

jennifer paige smith
05-15-2007, 10:33 AM
A very good helpful response. I consider myself lucky to have met Terry Dobson sensei and even to have been his uke for his famous "hit me in the head" demonstration. I was facing an aging man with deep purple feet, and he was telling me to attack shomenuchi, to "hit him in the head". I stopped at the last second before connection, only to receive the rebuke: "is that all you got? Is that the best you can do? If you can't muster up the courage to hit me i the head, you can go sit down and I'll call someone else up." With that last rebuke I decided I was going to take him up on it and split his head in half. And, right in the midst of my hell-bent for leather attack, he suddenly roared: "STOP!" at me, and my arm froze in mid-air. Then he faced the rest of the class and said: "Pair up. That's the practice."

In gassho,
Mark

Thanks. That is a wonderful story and an awesome example of 'aliveness' in training. I believe so deeply that we need to continue to train not just our level of intent, but our ability to adjust intent. Ukemi is by far my deepest ally in training. All of the 'I'm standing and your on the floor' conversations that take place here and there are rendered infintile when weighed against the practice and power of directed intent ukemi, and radical acceptance ukemi. Give 100% recieve 1000%. The ten fold law. Can you dig it?