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Luc X Saroufim
04-13-2007, 10:38 PM
i recently moved back to Boston, and after observing a class at my new dojo, i noticed they didn't clap at the beginning or end.

i understand the rule about having to be around a Shinto shrine, and i'm guessing it came from the West, although feel free to prove me wrong; but Shinto is also something you carry in your heart and with your spirit, especially if you train in Aikido. so in my opinion, the shrine is always there.

Gleason Sensei's book, "The Spiritual Foundations of Aikido" highlights the importance of understanding Shinto to better understand Aikido.

in my opinion, if you don't clap, you're simply bowing to O'Sensei as a sign of respect, but you're not getting in touch with Aikido's Shinto roots.

i insisted on speaking Japanese on the mat, something else they don't do. he said that was fine. but i'm not happy about having to sneak in before class in order to do something i have every right to do.

what does clapping mean to you? should it be required for every dojo? i think so. feel free to disagree and flame away.

MikeLogan
04-13-2007, 11:07 PM
I recently moved to new jersey, and after attending several classes here, I notice everyone claps at the beginning and end.

I now understand how this is supposed to attract the spirits at our beckon call, and when we finish, we clap again to "send them away" in the so many words it was explained.

In my opinion, it is arrogant to summon and dismiss at will, when one should be constantly engendering the spirit of aikido, not the trappings.

But then, we all have opinions, just like we all have as- ah, obis.

I would have been more peppery if I hadn't seen your invitation to flame at the end. Why should you want everyone to train exactly as you? The idea translates into every language and culture.

michael

Just Jamey
04-13-2007, 11:19 PM
i recently moved back to Boston, and after observing a class at my new dojo, i noticed they didn't clap at the beginning or end.We don't clap at our dojo either.
but Shinto is also something you carry in your heart and with your spirit, especially if you train in Aikido. so in my opinion, the shrine is always there.I train in Aikido, but I don't follow Shinto... Does that mean I'm not practicing Aikido?:D
in my opinion, if you don't clap, you're simply bowing to O'Sensei as a sign of respect, but you're not getting in touch with Aikido's Shinto roots.I bow as a sign of respect to O Sensei, and as a sign of respect to the art he created. I never bow to get in touch with Shinto... but then I'm not a follower of Shinto. Does that mean I'm not practicing Aikido?:D
i insisted on speaking Japanese on the mat, something else they don't do. he said that was fine. but i'm not happy about having to sneak in before class in order to do something i have every right to do.Now funny enough, I'm not Japanese so I don't speak the language fluently. I do use Japanese terms to refer to Aikido techniques. I find some humor to the fact that you feel you have to sneak into the dojo to speak Japanese, but then if you chose to speak only Japanese to me during a class I wouldn't understand you, so maybe sneaking in makes some sense.
what does clapping mean to you? should it be required for every dojo? i think so. feel free to disagree and flame away.Well, because I'm not a follower of Shinto clapping is associated with applause to me. I don't think it absolutely necessary to clap at a dojo. It doesn't change my practice. It doesn't change my mindset while practicing. It doesn't change my reasons for practicing Aikido. It doesn't alter the philosophy behind Aikido. All that being said, if I were at a dojo that clapped during the bowing in/out, I would adopt the practice of clapping to show respect for that dojo, out of respect for its intructors' wishes, and to blend or harmonize with the dojo atmosphere.:D

Hopefully, I'm not flaming you here. Just offering up my own two cents.

L. Camejo
04-14-2007, 12:01 AM
In our dojo/system we never clap (but then again we don't wear no ... hakama neither. :D:p)

When I visit dojo that clap I follow along - "when in Rome" and all that.

The presence or absence of clapping has absolutely no effect on my Aikido or my training. The Japanese language is used to have a common nomenclature to refer to things in Aikido training. When we bow it is out of respect for those who came before and developed what we study today.

I'm wondering though why you feel this strong need to clap, worship Shinto deities and speak Japanese. Why is it so important to you?

LC:ai::ki:

Mark Uttech
04-14-2007, 06:19 AM
People can think of the bowing and clapping ritual as shinto, or not. I was taught and have always thought of the two claps as being "one clap and its' echo". It is also a ritual that brings us "right here." A little bit of ceremony helps to focus. You can have a lot of different thoughts about it, but when you actually just practice the ceremony/ritual, it is what it is.

In gassho,

Mark

chris w
04-14-2007, 08:19 AM
i recently moved back to Boston, and after observing a class at my new dojo, i noticed they didn't clap at the beginning or end.

Gleason Sensei's book, "The Spiritual Foundations of Aikido" highlights the importance of understanding Shinto to better understand Aikido

So why don't you just go train at Gleason Sensei's dojo?:confused:

gdandscompserv
04-14-2007, 10:57 AM
So why don't you just go train at Gleason Sensei's dojo?:confused:
Now that's a good question.:cool:

crbateman
04-14-2007, 12:08 PM
Clapping is a sound that two hands make coming together. Anything more meaningful comes from your individual beliefs and intent. I would respectfully suggest that the thing to do is follow suit with your school's way during the group bows. I'm not into Shinto, but I'd be willing to bet that the spirits can still find you, if that is your intent. Call them on your own in some alternate fashion as you get on the mat, and send them home as you leave it. It would seem similar to the scenario where some bow to the kamiza as they first enter the mat, and then again as they leave, but not everybody does, or maybe some kneel while others bow standing. It's at these entry/exit points where you can better exercise some personal background and distinctiveness, without affecting or offending others by what you do, and the "group bows" can be still be done in unison without breaking protocol.

Basia Halliop
04-14-2007, 01:29 PM
If you're really interested in learning about Shintoism or becoming Shintoist (I don't know if that's the correct noun.), why not find out if there is any kind of local Shinto community in your area? Although depending where you live I guess there might not be (or there might be but they might be sceptical about you).

Luc X Saroufim
04-14-2007, 08:38 PM
...... I never bow to get in touch with Shinto... but then I'm not a follower of Shinto. Does that mean I'm not practicing Aikido?:D

i'm not a follower of Shinto either.....never was, never will be.

until i step on the mat.

without Shinto, O'Sensei would've never created Aikido; carrying a Shinto shrine in your heart, and bowing to O'Sensei go hand in hand. i wouldn't bow to O'Sensei off the mat, so i wouldn't clap off the mat either.


Now funny enough, I'm not Japanese so I don't speak the language fluently. I do use Japanese terms to refer to Aikido techniques. I find some humor to the fact that you feel you have to sneak into the dojo to speak Japanese, but then if you chose to speak only Japanese to me during a class I wouldn't understand you, so maybe sneaking in makes some sense.

i should clarify; i meant saying "onegaishimas" and "arigato gozaimasta" ; they say it in english in our dojo.


Hopefully, I'm not flaming you here. Just offering up my own two cents.

it's all good in the hood.

Luc X Saroufim
04-14-2007, 08:40 PM
In my opinion, it is arrogant to summon and dismiss at will,

on the contrary; praying is the most humble thing you can do. you're putting your well being in someone else's hands when you clap.

Luc X Saroufim
04-14-2007, 08:43 PM
I'm wondering though why you feel this strong need to clap, worship Shinto deities and speak Japanese. Why is it so important to you?

Aikido is a big gift to the West. it is an honour to learn Japan's wonderful art. the least we can do is prevent the Westernization of it; it is like receiving a gift from someone, and then stepping on it.

just like we follow O'Sensei's physical techniques, we also owe it to him to clap before class, just like he did.

most Eastern martial arts have philosophical/spiritual roots. here in the West, we're used to separating church and state. Japan is not the West, and we should respect that.
.


to answer other people's question about Gleason's dojo; i would've, but it's too far.

Basia Halliop
04-14-2007, 09:19 PM
Personally if I wasn't really a believer in something I think if I took up parts of it just when I was doing one thing, I would feel like I was playing games with parts of someone else's deeply held faith. To me that would not feel right, just as I would not be at all comfortable if someone who didn't believe in my religion came to my church and took the sacraments without fully believing in them, and then went away and ignored it in the rest of their life.

I don't do anything religious when I'm doing Aikido -- I respect the religions of those whe went before me but personally, I do not follow them.

That's just me, BTW -- if you are sincere I don't think it's disrespectful or anything. What matters is your intent and what it means to you, whether it helps you be a better person, etc... so that isn't actually meant as a criticism, as it probably sounds.

gdandscompserv
04-14-2007, 09:26 PM
to answer other people's question about Gleason's dojo; i would've, but it's too far.
you did say you were in boston.

MikeLogan
04-14-2007, 11:51 PM
on the contrary; praying is the most humble thing you can do. you're putting your well being in someone else's hands when you clap.Humility is always good, but whose hands are we considering, uke/nage's? Or that of the spirits? I put my life at the hands of everyone I encounter during my drive to the dojo. It's never given or taken for granted.it is like receiving a gift from someone, and then stepping on it.I don't think it is so bad as that. If Aikido technique and philosophy depended on a strict adherence to shinto concepts, it would have never left Japan.

michael.

Janet Rosen
04-15-2007, 12:41 AM
I OWE it to OSensei to clap?
If you feel that way, that is between you and him. How dare you to presume you speak for me and how I relate to him?

Luc X Saroufim
04-15-2007, 12:48 AM
I OWE it to OSensei to clap?
If you feel that way, that is between you and him.

and thanks to the internet, it can be between me and thousands of other people.

Just Jamey
04-15-2007, 01:06 AM
i'm not a follower of Shinto either.....never was, never will be.

until i step on the mat.

without Shinto, O'Sensei would've never created Aikido; carrying a Shinto shrine in your heart, and bowing to O'Sensei go hand in hand. i wouldn't bow to O'Sensei off the mat, so i wouldn't clap off the mat either.

i should clarify; i meant saying "onegaishimas" and "arigato gozaimasta" ; they say it in english in our dojo.So you follow Shinto... but only when you're on the mats? This is going to sound harsh, but wouldn't that be like claiming to be Christian/Muslim/Jewish only when you are in church/mosque/temple?

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you Luc about the necessity to, in some way, follow Shinto. Does clapping and bowing mean we are following Shinto. I feel that it does not. Historically, I can accept that bowing and clapping arose from a religious practice. However, these actions have grown beyond their roots and I feel that it is not necessary to have some form of religion attached with bowing or clapping. I tend to think of those actions as being more along the lines of a cultural action rather than a religious one.

I do not need to subscribe to Shinto religious beliefs in order to show respect for O Sensei, nor do I need to subscribe to Shinto religious beliefs in order to gain understanding of Aikido. Now if you feel it is necessary for your practice, then it is necessary... for you. That's how you are interpreting your Aikido; just don't make the mistake of trying to define my Aikido for me. :D

Oh yeah, forgot the last part. I think you can use the Japanese terms for requesting and thanking people for the opportunity to train interchangeable with the English equivalent. If you want to use the Japanese, I don't think your dojo will have a problem with it, as long as, you aren't using the terms out of ego. Honestly, when you get down to it thanking someone is thanking someone, whether you say it in Japanese, English or Swahilli.

Kent Enfield
04-15-2007, 03:11 AM
wouldn't that be like claiming to be Christian/Muslim/Jewish only when you are in church/mosque/temple?No.

It'd be like claiming to Christian/Muslim/Jewish, but only when you go to the YMCA.

And never going to church/mosque/temple.

p00kiethebear
04-15-2007, 03:13 AM
I have to disagree with the main post here.

The art may be from japan. But it certainly doesn't belong to the Japanese anymore like it once did. Aikido is now a world art. I see absolutely no reason to restrict ourselves to the japanese language or religion when practicing and I don't believe it was the founders wishes that we do. I would like to think that Ueshiba would have expected us to see aikido through our own faith.

Aikido does not belong to shinto. It does not belong to Japan.

I hate it when my kohai try to talk to me in japanese or call me 'Gidney san.' I'm an American, in an American dojo and I consider it rude. I'm fine with Senpai, but if you need to address me by my name, call me Mr. Gidney, or just Nathan.

KamiKaze_Evolution
04-15-2007, 04:22 AM
No.

It'd be like claiming to Christian/Muslim/Jewish, but only when you go to the YMCA.

And never going to church/mosque/temple.

I'm Christian as well and i have been being an Aikidoka for a period, and i don't ever do Shinto practice at my dojo all the time. Some of Malaysian Christians/Muslims have to misunderstand about Japanese etiquette while actually such etiquette has not everthing is Shinto related, that's why we gotta explain aboud such misunderstand to our martial arts.

I had been struggle with my mind for Aikido and Shinto stuffs, but the real problem is what intention for such as funakogi, furitama, kodotama, chinkon, etc. And real religion is communication etween human and god, surely Christianity has it's own way of meditation. Few years after, few of my Yoshinkan buddies have to tell me that it is no Shinto thing in Aikido.

Holy Bible doesn't mention about Aikido, TKD, Karate, Judo, BJJ, Sambo, MMA, etc, but it (Old Testment) tells us that Israelies had their own way of fighting before Jesus comes to the world.

p00kiethebear
04-15-2007, 04:45 AM
Holy Bible doesn't mention about... Judo...

But it DOES mention JEWDO! (way of the Jew) anyone? huh?

*crickets*

KamiKaze_Evolution
04-15-2007, 05:09 AM
But it DOES mention JEWDO! (way of the Jew) anyone? huh?

*crickets*

Anywhat do you say, Jews have their own fighting way and their fighting way has our Aiki skills. Anyway, Krav Maga, Kappap, Haganah, whatever Jews fighting.

batemanb
04-15-2007, 06:58 AM
............just like we follow O'Sensei's physical techniques, we also owe it to him to clap before class, just like he did.................

I`m currently in Japan on vacation, at the dojo I have practiced in every year for the last 11 years, they don`t clap at the rei. In the dojo I trained in Tokyo for 2 years when I lived there, they didn`t clap at the rei. At the Aikikai honbu dojo, I don`t ever remember clapping at the rei.

From what I understand, O Sensei didn`t force his shinto ideals on his students.

It`s very easy for us in the west to get carried away during practice. For me, it`s enough that I pay my respects to kaiso before and after keiko. if I ever take up shinto, I may feel different.

KamiKaze_Evolution
04-15-2007, 09:02 AM
I`m currently in Japan on vacation, at the dojo I have practiced in every year for the last 11 years, they don`t clap at the rei. In the dojo I trained in Tokyo for 2 years when I lived there, they didn`t clap at the rei. At the Aikikai honbu dojo, I don`t ever remember clapping at the rei.

From what I understand, O Sensei didn`t force his shinto ideals on his students.

It`s very easy for us in the west to get carried away during practice. For me, it`s enough that I pay my respects to kaiso before and after keiko. if I ever take up shinto, I may feel different.

What are intentions of funakogi and furitama for? Some senseis still lead up those excersice, it is mistake if student don't do those.

RoyK
04-15-2007, 09:18 AM
Anywhat do you say, Jews have their own fighting way and their fighting way has our Aiki skills. Anyway, Krav Maga, Kappap, Haganah, whatever Jews fighting.

Just a small correction - Krav maga, Kappap etc are Israeli fighting methods, not Jewish. (I've heard of only one art claiming to be a traditional Jewish martial art, "Abir", but I know nothing about it)

I guess this distinction relates to the issue at hand - is Aikido a Shinto art or a Japanese art.

Well, if I already started a post I might as well finish it. My humble perspective:

I think of Aikido as belonging to a school of thought or ethics rather than to a religion. While all or most techniques adhere to certain values, there's no technique calling on the Kami for strength or something like that, so I don't see how it relates to shinto directly.

KamiKaze_Evolution
04-15-2007, 09:40 AM
Just a small correction - Krav maga, Kappap etc are Israeli fighting methods, not Jewish. (I've heard of only one art claiming to be a traditional Jewish martial art, "Abir", but I know nothing about it)

I guess this distinction relates to the issue at hand - is Aikido a Shinto art or a Japanese art.

Well, if I already started a post I might as well finish it. My humble perspective:

I think of Aikido as belonging to a school of thought or ethics rather than to a religion. While all or most techniques adhere to certain values, there's no technique calling on the Kami for strength or something like that, so I don't see how it relates to shinto directly.

Thanks for a lot Israeli brother

mjhacker
04-15-2007, 09:55 AM
From what I understand, O Sensei didn`t force his shinto ideals on his students.
If he had, the list of requirements for shodan might include invading Mongolia.

Josh Reyer
04-15-2007, 10:28 AM
I hate it when my kohai try to talk to me in japanese or call me 'Gidney san.' I'm an American, in an American dojo and I consider it rude. I'm fine with Senpai, but if you need to address me by my name, call me Mr. Gidney, or just Nathan.

So, why are "senpai" and "kohai" okay? I would argue that they are even more inappropriate in an American dojo than "Gidney-san".

ChrisMoses
04-15-2007, 11:45 AM
i'm not a follower of Shinto either.....never was, never will be.

until i step on the mat.

without Shinto, O'Sensei would've never created Aikido; carrying a Shinto shrine in your heart, and bowing to O'Sensei go hand in hand. i wouldn't bow to O'Sensei off the mat, so i wouldn't clap off the mat either.

i should clarify; i meant saying "onegaishimas" and "arigato gozaimasta" ; they say it in english in our dojo.


Here's some take it or leave it advice, chill out and spend some time thinking about why you do things, and possibly how doing the *exact* same thing in one culture may not actually carry the same meaning in another. From this and some of your other posts, you sound like you're pretty convinced that the way you were taught to do things in Japan is the one and only way to do things. Let me assure you that isn't the case even in Japan. The first Aikido dojo I trained in had very close ties to OSensei (my teachers were direct students of one of OSensei's last uchideshi). We didn't clap at all, and when their teacher visited us, he didn't clap during the beginning bow either. I trained at an Aikikai dojo briefly who clapped twice, another dojo where you bowed once, clapped once, bowed again, clapped again, another where you bowed twice, then clapped twice, another where you bowed once to begin, then two times followed by four claps... See where I'm going here? In the sword line I study we have a very specific zarei bow in process which is WAY more specific than I have seen in any Aikido dojo, and yet because we train in an Aikido dojo's space, we add the four claps that they do even though in our line in Japan, they don't clap at all. It's just a bow, and the important part is what happens inside *you* during that bow.

The same thing goes for using Japanese in the dojo, there's no magic around the words, "onigaeshimasu" or phrase "domo arigato gozaimashita"... It's just a part of Japanese culture, you'd say the same thing if you were playing racket-ball with someone. I find it's actually easier to just go on autopilot and start spewing the Japanese phrases than it is to really speak to someone, "Hey, thanks for training with me." I feel the same thing whether I say, "onegaeshimasu" or "Yo, shall we play?"

If your shinto starts and ends on the mat, then you're just pretending anyway, so you might as well leave it in Japan...

Qatana
04-15-2007, 12:14 PM
My sesei's sensei was a direct student of OSensei. He doesn't clap, and while they say "onegaishimasu" at their dojo, we don't. We also don't go out in the middle of the night and stand under waterfalls.
We do, however, talk with the Kami.

Tennessee Mike
04-15-2007, 12:18 PM
If aikido conflicts with your spiritual beliefs then you may not be doing aikido. To give hand clapping any more significance than just tradition when you do not believe in shintoism may suggest examining your spiritual beliefs. O Sensei never suggested becoming bhuddist or practicing shintoism to learn aikido. From what I have read he practiced his beliefs and expected others to practice their own.

batemanb
04-15-2007, 05:42 PM
What are intentions of funakogi and furitama for? Some senseis still lead up those excersice, it is mistake if student don't do those.

My basic (read limited) understanding is that they are exercises for active and passive breathing, to help develop kokyu ryoku and body movement, I don`t see how these are related to clapping with the rei. There are a couple of old threads on here somwhere from Shaun Ravens with some in depth explanations of them. A bit long for my short attention span, so I never really absorbed them, more likely my loss. Maybe one day I`ll get through them.

As far as practicing funakogi and furitama, the dojo I`m practicing here right now, do them at weekend classes during the warm up, but don`t do them during the weekday class warm ups. They do do them as a paired exercise during class sometimes though. When I lived in Tokyo, every class did them during warm up, as did they at Hombu dojo whenever I was there. The dojo I practice in in England only does them when I put them in the warm up (which I don`t do every time), or when I do the paired exercise during normal class.

Is it a mistake not to do them? I don`t think a mistake per se, but I do see more advantages to doing them than leaving them out.

Amelia Smith
04-15-2007, 06:59 PM
I practiced at New England Aikikai for a few years, and now I sometimes practice at Aikido Tekkojuku of Boston, which is near Union & Inman Squares in Somerville. In both places, people use, or used to use, the Japanese terms for most things, but we don't clap at the bowing-in durring a regular class. We do clap at New Year's practice and some other special memorial-type practices, so it's there, it's just not an everyday thing. I don't know if they still do the New Year's practice at NEA.

You might want to visit one or both of these places. I'm curious where you are training now. Feel free to email me if you have any questions about dojos in the Cambridge-Somerville end of town, I think I've trained at all of them.

Luc X Saroufim
04-15-2007, 08:40 PM
So you follow Shinto... but only when you're on the mats? This is going to sound harsh, but wouldn't that be like claiming to be Christian/Muslim/Jewish only when you are in church/mosque/temple......I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you Luc about the necessity to, in some way, follow Shinto.

when i was visiting Dubai, i was not allowed in a mosque unless i wore the proper attire, took my shoes off, etc. for the brief moments i was in there, i had to adhere to customs of Islam.

i see no difference between that and adhering to Shinto customs to study Aikido.


Now if you feel it is necessary for your practice, then it is necessary... for you. That's how you are interpreting your Aikido

my Sensei has denied me the right to practice Aikido the way i want to practice it.

just don't make the mistake of trying to define my Aikido for me. :D
.

since a dojo is not democractic, the only choice i have is to convince my Sensei that clapping is necessary. that's an insane gesture, one i won't do, but there's a difference between winning my right to clap, and trying to define anyone else's Aikido.

how many books are written connecting Aikido to the kotodama?

Luc X Saroufim
04-15-2007, 08:45 PM
You might want to visit one or both of these places. I'm curious where you are training now. Feel free to email me if you have any questions about dojos in the Cambridge-Somerville end of town, I think I've trained at all of them.

thanks Amelia, will do.

DonMagee
04-15-2007, 09:04 PM
I am not a religious person. I feel I would be disrespecting a culture to pretend to adhere to a custom I felt was silly. I'd stay away from places that required me to.

L. Camejo
04-15-2007, 09:05 PM
my Sensei has denied me the right to practice Aikido the way i want to practice it. since a dojo is not democractic, the only choice i have is to convince my Sensei that clapping is necessary.I'm sorry but if one comes to my dojo to practice then they will be practicing my Aikido (or my system's method as expressed through me), if you want to practice your Aikido open your own dojo or find one that operates the way you like.

like i just mentioned, i don't feel that my Aikido is my own anymore. i have to follow my Sensei's Aikido in order not to be disrespectful, and that's not fair.Of course it's fair, what the Sensei says goes, if you don't like it there is always a choice. It sounds like you are not at all happy with your current training situation. Personally I think for you to want to change the type of practice at your dojo to include clapping because it is something you personally like does not respect the feelings of your Sensei or your dojo mates who may be quite content with the way they train now and have trained before you ever appeared.

You're right, the dojo is not a democracy and in more cases than not the individual ego must submit to the group dynamic (sounds like a Geico commercial :)) if the group is unwilling to accommodate the needs of the one. The alternative is to leave and find a group more in line with your needs. Your Sensei is not denying you anything, he is teaching the way he knows best. You are the one using your own free will to leave your abode and go to his class and not be happy. It is the choice you have made.

Ueshiba M. was quite clear in not requiring his own Aikido students to follow his religious beliefs, I find it quite interesting that you are requiring this of your dojo mates and Sensei to "respect O-Sensei" when O-Sensei himself did not require this. If this is the case then you are not even following O-Sensei's example (though you claim to respect him so much) because you are operating in direct contrast to what he did and said when alive.

Just my thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Janet Rosen
04-15-2007, 09:34 PM
No.

It'd be like claiming to Christian/Muslim/Jewish, but only when you go to the YMCA.

And never going to church/mosque/temple.
That is beatiful and oh so apt. thank you.

Just Jamey
04-15-2007, 10:52 PM
when i was visiting Dubai, i was not allowed in a mosque unless i wore the proper attire, took my shoes off, etc. for the brief moments i was in there, i had to adhere to customs of Islam.

i see no difference between that and adhering to Shinto customs to study Aikido.The difference is that your initial post wasn't only about following customs; you were implying that we need to practice Shinto with the comment: "...Shinto is also something you carry in your heart and with your spirit, especially if you train in Aikido", and that "if you don't clap, you're simply bowing to O'Sensei as a sign of respect, but you're not getting in touch with Aikido's Shinto roots.". Neither of these statements are truth, just opinion. Also, blindly following a set of customs is not practicing a religion, nor is it getting in touch with the religion.

If I accompany my girlfriend to her church, then I will bow my head with the rest of the congregation, when they pray. Not because I'm following Christianity, but out of respect for their way of doing things and to not be a disruptive presence.my Sensei has denied me the right to practice Aikido the way i want to practice it.It is your choice to enter your Sensei's "house" as it were. Part of your dojo practice is to respect the rules of the "house". No one forces you to practice Aikido at that dojo. Even if it's the only dojo for 100 miles, no one forces you to train there.since a dojo is not democractic, the only choice i have is to convince my Sensei that clapping is necessary. that's an insane gesture, one i won't do, but there's a difference between winning my right to clap, and trying to define anyone else's Aikido.You and I do agree on the first part. Clapping; however, is only necessary for you. A person has no right to clap in a dojo that chooses not to practice that custom. In my opinion, clapping in this instance would not be a harmonious action, just a disruptive one. It would be an action of the ego to clap because of a misguided belief that it is the only proper way to practice.

Others have already pointed out the O Sensei did not require any sort of obedience to his religious observance during practice. Who are you or I to demand it of others?

If you are so all fired up about clapping, then practice clapping in a non-physical, non-disruptive manner. Focus on what the clapping does for your mindset/spirit. When the time comes to bow practice that mindset. However, if you are all riled up that the dojo won't clap their hands because that's "the right way to do it", then you nned to look at why you are clapping in the first place.how many books are written connecting Aikido to the kotodama?I'm going to guess it is the same number of books that mention O Sensei never requiring any religious dogma...

Thanks for the conversation. I think that about covers it for my part.

Just Jamey
04-15-2007, 10:53 PM
No.

It'd be like claiming to Christian/Muslim/Jewish, but only when you go to the YMCA.

And never going to church/mosque/temple.Janet beat me to this. Much more apt comparision than mine.

jonreading
04-16-2007, 12:33 PM
1. I clap out of tradition; my instructor claps, my instructor's instructor claps, etc. I do not presume to alter that tradition without a clear understanding of what omitting the clap (heh heh) from class will impact. Some day, I may be comfortable altering my style of teaching, but until that day comes, class is taught in the manner in which I learned aikido.
2. I firmly believe class is more easily taught using traditional Japanese terminology. To me, it is easier to teach, "kotegaishi," then, "outward wrist twist #1." Of course, the translated Japanese is sometimes that simple, for example, "ikkajo." However, I almost prefer English to terribly butchered Japanese...

In any case, you are describing a dojo environment in which you are dissatisfied. You may [privately] politely express your dissatisfaction to you instructor, and he (or she) may elaborate on their decisions to omit clapping or to use English in lieu of Japanese. A dojo is not a democracy, I believe my instructor called class, "a benevolent dictatorship." Your new dojo is not obligated to meet your training demands, nor should you construct false expectations about what you demand from your dojo. If you truly can't bear to train at the dojo, I think you've answered your own questions.

As a side note, I remember leaving a dojo when I found out students do not brand themselves with an hot iron cauldron upon reaching shodan. Sissys.
[note: just kidding]

gdandscompserv
04-16-2007, 12:59 PM
Sorry Luc, but I am having a hard time feeling your pain. An Aikiweb dojo search shows 16 matches within 19 miles of Boston. Gleason himself is only 8 miles away. Me thinks you should appreciate how fortunate that is. If it was me I'd probably visit all of them several times before deciding on where to study. The proper teacher/student relationship is very symbiotic. It is also essential for correct transmission of budo. If you don't "feel" that then you really should move on. It would be best for everyone.

p00kiethebear
04-16-2007, 03:39 PM
So, why are "senpai" and "kohai" okay? I would argue that they are even more inappropriate in an American dojo than "Gidney-san".

It just irks me more than the other two.

Ron Tisdale
04-16-2007, 03:52 PM
Eight miles??? The guy who wrote the book you are quoting from is EIGHT MILES away, and that's too far???

Dude, I'm sorry...but man, you can ride your bike that far! I used to run five miles to the YMCA, lift weights for 2 hours, then run five miles back!! Granted, you couldn't tell from looking at me now...and that was when I was in my late teens early 20s. But still...you need to get out more.

Best,
Ron

mjhacker
04-16-2007, 03:56 PM
Eight miles??? The guy who wrote the book you are quoting from is EIGHT MILES away, and that's too far???
I, too, get a kick out of how far is "too far" to some people. Hell, I used to drive 3 hours (one way) to get to the Iwama dojo on weekends.

Of course, the initial commute to my current dojo was a bit further than that... (~10,000 miles?)

Luc X Saroufim
04-16-2007, 08:17 PM
I'm sorry but if one comes to my dojo to practice then they will be practicing my Aikido (or my system's method as expressed through me), if you want to practice your Aikido open your own dojo or find one that operates the way you like.

hopefully i will one day. allow me to ask you: what is the difference between a Sensei and a student?

authority? a deed? technical skill? where is the line drawn? there are no words to describe the answer, and there is no line. yet i capitalize the word "Sensei, " even when used in an improper form.

there is a difference, and there always will be. the relationship is spiritual, because it's based on faith. i will learn from you, and will not question you. if that's not religion, what is?

the common denominator of *anyone's* Aikido is Shinto. the numerator can be whatever you want it to be.

Luc X Saroufim
04-16-2007, 08:20 PM
Eight miles??? The guy who wrote the book you are quoting from is EIGHT MILES away, and that's too far???

there's no way i can make it to class on time, because no train goes there. i need to go to a dojo with train access. i've done all the necessary dojo searches and visited the ones i was interested in.

Aristeia
04-16-2007, 08:36 PM
hopefully i will one day. allow me to ask you: what is the difference between a Sensei and a student?

authority? a deed? technical skill? where is the line drawn? there are no words to describe the answer, and there is no line. yet i capitalize the word "Sensei, " even when used in an improper form.

there is a difference, and there always will be. the relationship is spiritual, because it's based on faith. i will learn from you, and will not question you. if that's not religion, what is?

the common denominator of *anyone's* Aikido is Shinto. the numerator can be whatever you want it to be.Rubbish. There has been no shinto at the dojos I've trained in. There's no need for it. O'Sensei himself said that his art was different to his religion. If nothing else this thread should be telling you that your beleifs on this topic are.....out of the ordinary. Which means you can't really complain about your sensei doing what they should be doing in your mind, given your mind is clearly different to everyone elses (on this topic)

Shipley
04-16-2007, 09:11 PM
Eight miles takes me 20 minutes on a bike if I'm in a hurry. Where I teach now it is almost that far, and I bike there most of the time (excepting right now, since I have a snapped achilles tendon).

I'm not sure how dedicated you are to training, but if my dream sensei was 8 miles away, I'd be there many times a week.

I clap to start and end class. When I visit a dojo that does not, I also do not. When I visit a Shinto shrine (which I do a few times a year) and train at a dojo there, I do misogi, chinkon, and chohai each morning. I am not Shinto, but respect the right of the person running the dojo to say what is best for the training.

Respect is everything in martial arts. Without it we cannot train sincerely. Without sincerity, what is the point?

I clap twice at the beginning and ending of class as an exercise in focusing. One clap to clear my thoughts of outside influences, one to focus on my training (and symmetrically opposite at the end of class). The clap is a nice reminder to do that, but is hardly necessary if that is already in your mind.

You asked the difference between a sensei and a student. A sensei has convinced several people that he has something to teach them. A student has much to learn. Most good sensei that I have met are also students.

Coming into a dojo and trying to teach the sensei how to behave feels a bit like showing up with a full cup.

Best wishes for finding a dojo that helps you empty your cup.

Paul

MikeLogan
04-16-2007, 09:14 PM
www.mbta.com
#57: Kenmore to Watertown Square (via Newton Corner and Brighton Center)
#52: Dedham Mall or Charles River Loop to Watertown Square (via Oak Hill and Newton Center)
#59: Needham Junction to Watertown Square (via Newtonville)
#71: Harvard Station to Watertown Square (via Mount Auburn St)
#502: Copley Square to Watertown Yard (via Newton Corner and Mass Turnpike)
#504 (express): Downtown to Watertown Yard (via Mass Turnpike) The train is always nicer than the bus, but if we really want, we really do. 6:30 can be hard to make with the work rush. I would suggest finding out their mat fees. It's too bad they have no saturday classes, but there's a sunday class at least. If I want the kind of workout I prefer, I need to schedule my day to let me leave at 5 sharp. It's then just a simple 40 mile trip in rush hour to make the mat by 6pm. The closer dojo is just 5 miles from work, only 2 from my apt, and class starts at 7pm. While it would be nicer to simply join the farther dojo, I find that making about 3 classes a month, more if I'm lucky, on top of the local dojo's schedule is still plenty enriching. Anyhow.

While shinto no doubt had an influence on O'Sensei's perceptions of the principles of what we know as aikido, many of those principles are at least in part formed from budo as a whole, not to mention the hundreds and hundreds of years of refinement of actual/factual technique.

We all have to come up with our own ways of seeing and understanding what we encounter. Shinto concepts allowed O Sensei to internalize what he discovered through training on his own. While your mileage may vary on this point, we are essentially trying to encounter the same thing, except someone else has told us that it is there, and we happen to know how they found it for themself. This must be where the phrase "your aikido" comes from.

I think it may have been the insistence that everyone train just like you that set everyone's tone. Haha, we all harmonized, just on the wrong note.

Good Luck.

gnlj
04-16-2007, 09:57 PM
I unfortunately never met Nocquet sensei. This interview with him from Aikido Journal has a particularly relevant section on O-Sensei and religion.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=405
With kind regards,
Guy.

mjhacker
04-16-2007, 10:32 PM
there is a difference, and there always will be. the relationship is spiritual, because it's based on faith. i will learn from you, and will not question you. if that's not religion, what is?
My relationship with my teacher has never been based on faith. He dumps me on my ass every time I touch him. No faith, no religion. Just proof. (Plus a lot of skill, experience, and physics.)

the common denominator of *anyone's* Aikido is Shinto. the numerator can be whatever you want it to be.
Are you serious? Who have you studied under? For how long?

ChrisMoses
04-17-2007, 09:31 AM
there is a difference, and there always will be. the relationship is spiritual, because it's based on faith. i will learn from you, and will not question you. if that's not religion, what is?

the common denominator of *anyone's* Aikido is Shinto. the numerator can be whatever you want it to be.

Dude, you sound like an acolyte looking for a cult. You really need to take a few steps back and just chill. I don't know if you will find what you're looking for otherwise.

L. Camejo
04-17-2007, 11:19 AM
hopefully i will one day. allow me to ask you: what is the difference between a Sensei and a student?

authority? a deed? technical skill? where is the line drawn? there are no words to describe the answer, and there is no line. yet i capitalize the word "Sensei, " even when used in an improper form.Sensei means "one who has gone before" from my understanding. If you decide to practice with a particular sensei, he will instruct you in the path that he has walked before you. He is your sensei because he is further along than you are in that particular path, in this case Aikido. Regarding capitalisation, there is no such thing in the Japanese language, this happens only when we use romanised Japanese words in written english.

In arts that indicate development of certain skillsets over time as a result of practice (like Budo and the attached Kyu/Dan recognition system) a sensei's skill is of great importance since he also undertakes the role of leader or teacher of these skillsets as his knowledge allows. A leader is not followed by blind faith unless his followers are in fact cultish in their relationship with him. In studying something like Budo blind faith can be quite dangerous on many levels.

Imho there is a clear line that defines the authority of the sensei. On an organisational level it is defined by a parent association or group who supports and provides official recognition of the sensei's particular skillset and ability to teach and lead. On a more personal level as far as martial arts are concerned at least, a sensei should also theoretically possess the technical knowledge and skillset to protect and defend any challenge to his authority, whether direct or indirect.

So there is a definite line of authority between you and your sensei. You as the student have the choice to adapt to the new situation, challenge his authority or find somewhere else that is more in line with your thinking.

there is a difference, and there always will be. the relationship is spiritual, because it's based on faith. i will learn from you, and will not question you. if that's not religion, what is?The relationship is only spiritual if you consider your sensei a God. Even in religion people question and should have the right to do so.
the common denominator of *anyone's* Aikido is Shinto. the numerator can be whatever you want it to be.This is totally ridiculous and incorrect. If Shinto was a common denominator for all Aikido then we would all be required to become confirmed Shinto believers when we start studying Aikido. Aikido would in this case be an expression of the Shinto religion and not an entity unto itself as it has always been. If what you say were true Ueshiba M. would be sure to convert all of his students to Shintoism before teaching them. He would also not teach Christian, non-Shinto foreigners like Andre Nocquet for example.

I don't know what you have been reading or who you have been listening to regarding the norms and general philosophy and history of Aikido but I suggest you do some research to verify much of what you believe about Aikido.

Imho.
LC:ai::ki:

Edward
04-17-2007, 11:39 AM
I like your logic. Tomorrow I will challenge my 71 years old sensei, and if I win I will take over his dojo, kick him out and be the next sensei.

I think you are confusing jungle laws and master/student relationships. Your theory works well on lions and wolves but not on humans I'm afraid.



On a more personal level as far as martial arts are concerned at least, a sensei should also theoretically possess the technical knowledge and skillset to protect and defend any challenge to his authority, whether direct or indirect.

So there is a definite line of authority between you and your sensei. You as the student have the choice to adapt to the new situation, challenge his authority or find somewhere else that is more in line with your thinking.

Imho.
LC:ai::ki:

L. Camejo
04-17-2007, 11:42 AM
You misunderstood my post Edward.

mriehle
04-17-2007, 12:10 PM
I, too, get a kick out of how far is "too far" to some people. Hell, I used to drive 3 hours (one way) to get to the Iwama dojo on weekends.

Put me on the list as well. I used to walk for an hour each way to my dojo. Twice a day. I now commute nearly fiften miles to train, 40 miles to teach.

Eight miles is mice - never mind.

Of course, the initial commute to my current dojo was a bit further than that... (~10,000 miles?)

Wow, I only had to fly to Hawaii to visit my dad (and his wife, who was the one who initially dragged me to the dojo because she was offended by a fourteen year old sitting around the house and reading during a Hawaiian summer).

L. Camejo
04-17-2007, 12:27 PM
I like your logic. Tomorrow I will challenge my 71 years old sensei, and if I win I will take over his dojo, kick him out and be the next sensei.You sound like a young male member of a Lion pack who senses that his pack leader is aging and becoming a soft target so you want to challenge him for authority. Have you kept these thoughts hidden all this time or is your sensei aware that you want to take him out? I thought Aikidoka were supposed to be walking on a path of peace and conflict resolution? I should contact him and warn him.

I think you are confusing jungle laws and master/student relationships. Your theory works well on lions and wolves but not on humans I'm afraid.To clarify, there is no confusion. The teacher/student relationship is an agreement of sorts between two entities for one to teach what he knows of a particular topic and the other to apply himself towards learning. This is different from the leader/follower relationship which is an agreement where the follower believes the leader can take him somewhere or do something that is desired by both leader and follower. A sensei often takes on both roles.

Regardless of how you want to slice it, Luc's need for clapping and Shintoist elements in his current training is indirectly challenging his instructor's status quo at the dojo. The fact that he voiced his disapproval here shows that the situation is bothering him somewhat and he seeks clarification or advice. The need for clarification comes from a sense of doubt about something.

When some people hear challenge they automatically assume physical conflict, fight and war. Hence the animal kingdom allusion. To edify those who may be unsure, the definition of challenge includes:

"to take exception to; call in question: to challenge the wisdom of a procedure"http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/challenge

In Martial arts, physical challenges sometimes happen (direct), but most challenges come in the form of verbal questions that are designed to clarify a situation or seek to change the status quo for something perceived to be better (indirect). This is pretty much what Luc's question poses to his sensei.

Regarding the animal kingdom however, please remember that even in the 21st century humankind regularly allows this side of himself to come to the fore (any homicide proves this). I would think as Aikidoka who aim to understand peace and reduce conflict in the world, to deny, trivialize or minimalize the animal tendencies of the human is to invite failure in one's goal of becoming an exemplar of peace.The pursuit of peace brings one face to face with the animal nature of mankind and seeks to address relationships without resorting to violence and killing imho. I believe Ueshiba M. referred to it as Kon and Haku or the higher self and lower self.

Just some thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Luc X Saroufim
04-17-2007, 12:59 PM
The train is always nicer than the bus, but if we really want, we really do. 6:30 can be hard to make with the work rush. I would suggest finding out their mat fees. It's too bad they have no saturday classes, but there's a sunday class at least. If I want the kind of workout I prefer, I need to schedule my day to let me leave at 5 sharp. It's then just a simple 40 mile trip in rush hour to make the mat by 6pm. The closer dojo is just 5 miles from work, only 2 from my apt, and class starts at 7pm. While it would be nicer to simply join the farther dojo, I find that making about 3 classes a month, more if I'm lucky, on top of the local dojo's schedule is still plenty enriching. Anyhow.

my friend, i understand and i am aware of everything you've mentioned. i understand you're trying to help.


While shinto no doubt had an influence on O'Sensei's perceptions of the principles of what we know as aikido, many of those principles are at least in part formed from budo as a whole, not to mention the hundreds and hundreds of years of refinement of actual/factual technique.

We all have to come up with our own ways of seeing and understanding what we encounter. Shinto concepts allowed O Sensei to internalize what he discovered through training on his own. While your mileage may vary on this point, we are essentially trying to encounter the same thing, except someone else has told us that it is there, and we happen to know how they found it for themself. This must be where the phrase "your aikido" comes from.

thank you for the polite response, you brought up some good points.


I think it may have been the insistence that everyone train just like you that set everyone's tone.

that seems to be the case. i will know better from now on.

Luc X Saroufim
04-17-2007, 01:05 PM
Dude, you sound like an acolyte looking for a cult. You really need to take a few steps back and just chill.

that was not my intention, although i am guilty of that mistake.

for all the people that gave me polite responses that were on topic, i would like to thank you. i will be less preachy when expressing my views next time, and i have certainly learned a lot.

BC
04-17-2007, 01:21 PM
If you really want to practice and live the belief system of Morihei Ueshiba, you should join and practice the Omoto-kyo religion. It si still around, although with significantly less members than in the early to mid 1900s.

The dojo I practice at was founded by a Japanese man who was a direct student of O Sensei, and we never clap hands at the beginning or end of class.

Edward
04-17-2007, 02:37 PM
You misunderstood my post Edward.

Hi Larry,

I actually agree with you on the points raised in your post, except the ones I commented on in a failed attempt on humour. Maybe I should have added a few smilies.

And please don't warn my sensei, you will spoil the effect of surprise (not that he couldn't kick my a** anytime he wants) :D

L. Camejo
04-17-2007, 02:43 PM
I figured you were being sarcastic, but to be safe I explained.

Happy training.
LC:ai::ki:

cserrit
04-17-2007, 05:24 PM
there's no way i can make it to class on time, because no train goes there. i need to go to a dojo with train access. i've done all the necessary dojo searches and visited the ones i was interested in.

Carpool. Many dojos have people who do this. You also get to know your fellow classmates.

-C

Dan Reynolds
04-20-2007, 08:45 AM
When I first started to study Aikido, there where a lot of Shinto traditions observed in the Dojo I started with, I have even trained for a while in a Shinto shrine in Washington state. I am not a follower of the Shinto traditions but I do respect and understand that clapping or bell ringing sets the "vibration" for the class. At current time I am with Dojo that does do not much or any of the Shinto traditions. I do wish that we did spend a bit more time in setting the "vibration" of the class.

I think that O'Sensi answered our questions about this subject when he discusses the Art of Peace:

"The Art of Peace is the religion that is not a religion; it prefects and completes all religions"

He also states that Aikido and the Art of Peace is for the whole world not for one group or nation.

With all of this in mind. INMO, it would be more offensive to O'Sensi to say that Shinto traditions need to be followed and that they are the only way. Shinto did add a lot to the development of Aikido so did his time with other "cults". Shinto was O'Sensi religion not the religion of Aikido itself. I also think that O'Sensi got a lot of his traditions from Onisaburo and the Omoto-Kyo religious organization . When O'Sensi and Onisaburo entered Mongolia, Onisaburo created Omoto-Buddisam and declared himself the living Buda. So it would seem that O'Sensi was open minded to other traditions and ideas.

Cyrijl
04-20-2007, 03:32 PM
Luc,
Don't worry Gleason does not teach alot of classes. I think he does alot of seminars and outside events which keeps him busy. At any rate they don't clap either.

Are you at New England Aikikai?

ikkitosennomusha
04-20-2007, 06:04 PM
The answer to this whole shonto dilema is easy. Regardless, one must observe and obey the rules of the dojo. If he wishes to continue training there, he must learn to do without the clapping. If it becomes something too great to bear, the he must leave.

I recommend clapping in your mind. The symbolic nature of clapping appears to be metaphysical anyway so who needs to perform an external function of reality such as clapping? Do it in your mind and if you believe the spirits will awaken, they will.

Personally, I don't practice that nor find it beneficial to training.

Chuck.Gordon
04-21-2007, 04:30 AM
There are as many flavors of reiho/reigi in budo as there are organizations and dojo. If you're uncomfortable with the methodology of respect and tradition in the dojo you attend, then maybe it's time to start looking elsewhere.

Peter Goldsbury
04-21-2007, 07:25 AM
Hello Mr Saroufim,

I have read your post, and the thread it generated, and think I need to give some responses here, if only to diminish the possibility of misunderstandings of aikido, based on misunderstandings of aikido's parent culture. My responses are signaled PAG.

i recently moved back to Boston, and after observing a class at my new dojo, i noticed they didn't clap at the beginning or end.
PAG. One question for me, here, is whether you began aikido in Boston. You state that you originally lived in Boston and returned there after a prolonged absence and found that in your 'new' dojo they did not clap. I spent some time in Boston in the early 1970s as a student of Mitsunari Kanai Sensei at the New England Aikikai. We never clapped in the NE Aikikai dojo, but there may well be other dojo in Boston at the time where students did clap. So I am curious about your early aikido history in Boston.

i understand the rule about having to be around a Shinto shrine, and i'm guessing it came from the West, although feel free to prove me wrong; but Shinto is also something you carry in your heart and with your spirit, especially if you train in Aikido. so in my opinion, the shrine is always there.
PAG I am not out to prove anything, least of all to prove you wrong. However, I am curious about your mention of a 'rule' about having to be around a Shinto shrine. As far as I know, the only Aikikai dojo that is also a shrine is in Iwama. Of course, the shrine is a physical entity, occupying a special, sacred, space, and this is true with every other Shinto shrine in Japan. Festivals are held in Japan and the focus is the local shrine and the deities associated wiht the shrine.

With Christianity things are different. Are you a Christian? Or, I should more appropriately ask in these PC times, in what broad religious culture have you been brought up? If it is Christian, have you read the writings of Thomas a Kempis or St Margaret Mary? I mention these two because they are the clearest example in Christianity of a sacred 'thing' which you carry within you. The Christian belief in the 'Sacred Heart' is long established, but I think there are no actual places that embody this belief. The Sacre Coeur in Paris is a large building that embodies an immensely popular belief, but is not itself theplace or 'locus' of the belief. So the sacred 'place' is not the physical organ, but the 'soul', which in Christianity is a metaphor for a whole relationship with God.

So, for me, as a resident of Hiroshima, Japan, for nearly 30 years, Shinto means the local shrines and festivals right here in Ushita, the suburb where I live. There are loads of small shrines dedicated to local deities and they all have their groups of 'believers', who hold festivals during the year. I have put 'believers' in quotes because in Shinto I do not think one 'believes' a body of 'doctrine', such as one might do with a specific religion like Christianity.

Have you lived in Japan and taken part in a Shinto shrine festival? For foreigners, the most interesting festivals are the 'hadaka matsuri' and the fertility festivals. In hadaka matsuri, young men strip to fundoshi and fight to gain possession of a sacred object that is thought to bring with it blessings of the deity to whom the festival is dedicated. Only young men can participate because (a) they have the strength to fight, and (b) they 'look' good in fundoshi and are therefore thought to be pleasing to the extremely fickle and partisan kami. Matthew Bourne's production of Swan Lake, wirh Adam Cooper as the Swan, sets out the issues here, but in a western way. Because of western PC issues, young women have gradually been able to take part in certain Shinto festivals, but not the raw festivals that go back to the roots of folk religion, which are highly sexist in orientation, with much macho strutting and drinking.

The fertility festivals usually consist of a parade of replicas of enormous genitalia and youngsters are encouraged to ride on the said items, in order to promote their own reproductive powers.

So, I think that the concept of an internal 'shrine', as something 'within' you as a person, is completely alien both to Shinto and aikido.

Gleason Sensei's book, "The Spiritual Foundations of Aikido" highlights the importance of understanding Shinto to better understand Aikido.
PAG. I was a long-time student of Mr Gleason's aikido teacher. His name is Seigo Yamaguchi Sensei and I began training with him after Mr Gleason left Japan. Yamaguchi Sensei never clapped at the beginning and end of class. So, if Mr Gleason claps at the beginning and end of his classes, I think that this is something of his own. Of course, Mr Gleason has written a fine book on a certain style of Shinto as a way of understanding aikido, but you need to understand that it is a style, rather than an established doctrine. My own aikido teacher is woud not claim to be a follower or believe in Shinto.

in my opinion, if you don't clap, you're simply bowing to O'Sensei as a sign of respect, but you're not getting in touch with Aikido's Shinto roots.
PAG. Well, I do not think there is any abstract concept about getting in touch with roots. What do you actually mean by 'getting in tough with Aikido's Shinto roots'? Do I have to participate in Shinto ferstivals? Or do I have to 'believe', as a Christian might believe in a body of doctrine that can be recited as a creed? Furthermore, having got in touch with the 'Shinto roots', as you understand these, what difference will this make to the practise of aikido waza in the dojo?

In Japan, you might believe that if you do not clap, you are not summoning the particular Shinto kami (according to the Kojiki, there are at least 8,000,000 kami, as westerners would reckon the number) who will guide your own aikido training.

This is fine and a good reason for clapping, but you need to know to whom you are clapping, in order to summon attention. O Sensei, in Iwama, had no doubt whatever of the kami whose attention he was attracting during his pre-practice rituals.

i insisted on speaking Japanese on the mat, something else they don't do. he said that was fine. but i'm not happy about having to sneak in before class in order to do something i have every right to do.
PAG. Why would you want to speak Japanese in a place like France? If it is because the Shinto kami themselves speak only Japanese, I am sure that you can see the problem here. I do not think the kami have a vested interest in lingustic proficiency. So I think the reasons why Japanese terms are used in aikido dojo around the world have nothing to do with Japanese kami. There is a vocabulary that has grown in importance by being used and this also includes the greetings before and after training.

what does clapping mean to you? should it be required for every dojo? i think so. feel free to disagree and flame away.
PAG. Well, for what it is worth, I run a local dojo in a very rural area of Japan and all my students are ordinary Japanese people, who have grown accustomed to the idea of a foreigner teaching them a Japanese martial art in Japan. We do not clap at the beginning and end of training and none of these students, all Japanese devotes of the local religious cults, have ever objected. If I had been here 50 years earlier, during the war, and, by some miracle, had been allowed to run the dojo in wartime, of course we would have followed the local religious customs and clapped, as loudly as possible.

But after the war, the trappings of STATE Shinto, the practices enforced by the Japanese military as a way of maintaining war morale, as distinct from the local cults I have described above, were abandoned.

So I hope you accept that the choice of clapping or not clapping is not such a simple matter and is of no importance in determining whether we are practising 'true' aikido.

Best regards, and feel free to correspond with me further, some if some points made here seem unsatisfactory.

Gernot Hassenpflug
04-21-2007, 10:19 AM
I'd like to thank Professor Goldsbury for the enlightening comments. And also to note, with respect to the side issue of "sensei" that came up, that Prof. Goldsbury has written about the difference between Western "teachers" and Japanese "sensei". At the moment I recollect definitively only an article in the Japanese edition of Aiki News, but perhaps a translation appeared elsewhere (in Aiki Journal, perhaps, or on this site).

Best regards,

Avery Jenkins
04-21-2007, 05:13 PM
I used to run five miles to the YMCA, lift weights for 2 hours, then run five miles back!!

Ron

Yeah, well, when I was in my 20s, I used to do the same thing, only I ran the return trip BACKWARDS!. And, I didn't bother to wear shoes.

Lyle Bogin
04-21-2007, 06:59 PM
Sometimes I think that even if I don't bother to "summon the gods", they show up anyway!

Can't really control those wacky kami...

Ron Tisdale
04-23-2007, 07:51 AM
Hi Avery,

Yeah, but was it backwards, up hill, and in the snow?!?!? ;)

B,
R :D

Luc X Saroufim
04-23-2007, 08:45 PM
Hi Mr. Goldsbury,

Thanks for a very well informed response to my thread. not only was this the type of information i was looking for, but it helped me realize more about why clapping is important to me.

I am curious about your early aikido history in Boston.

until recently, i have no Aikido history in Boston. i am from Boston, which may explain the "up front" attitude! :D please forgive me if i don't mention my dojo; i have stepped on a lot of toes and don't want to negatively represent my fellow classmates; it's a great place to train and i'm glad i chose it.

my first Sensei in NJ clapped; once i understood why we did it, i felt like something was missing when i attended seminars and other dojo's. it struck a chord with me and i began to value its meaning.


I am not out to prove anything, least of all to prove you wrong. However, I am curious about your mention of a 'rule' about having to be around a Shinto shrine.

i heard this from word of mouth from two other people at a seminar. i was still brand new to Aikido, and i thought everyone always clapped. when i saw that we didn't, i asked why.


With Christianity things are different. Are you a Christian? If it is Christian, have you read the writings of Thomas a Kempis or St Margaret Mary? I mention these two because they are the clearest example in Christianity of a sacred 'thing' which you carry within you. The Christian belief in the 'Sacred Heart' is long established

you are spot on about everything here. not only am i Christian, but the Sacre Coeur is very popular with Lebanese Christians, since France has had a huge influence on our country.

"the shrine being in your heart" comes from this same belief, as you have predicted. however, to substantiate my claim as best i can, i would also like to add that my previous Sensei said the same thing.


So, I think that the concept of an internal 'shrine', as something 'within' you as a person, is completely alien both to Shinto and aikido.

i guess my interpretation was thrown off course. i am a practicing Christian, so that would explain why i interpreted it as such.


Of course, Mr Gleason has written a fine book on a certain style of Shinto as a way of understanding aikido, but you need to understand that it is a style, rather than an established doctrine.

i can believe that. just one thing: I was convinced of Shinto's bind with Aikido before i read the book. the book just sealed my thoughts for me. O'Sensei's clapping, his poetry about Kami, the spiritual revelations, all the preaching about love and respect, not to mention he was greatly influenced by religion and its practitioners; i was convinced about Shinto's influence on Aikido before i read the book. this is what i'm still confused about: in my mind it was crystal clear, which is why i posted with such confidence, but i had no idea that opinions would vary this much.


What do you actually mean by 'getting in tough with Aikido's Shinto roots'?

going all the way back to when i said that, i was operating under the assumption that clapping was a Shinto ritual that O'Sensei did, and that it was important for us to do the same. i do not believe we have to participate in any festivals, etc.

Why would you want to speak Japanese in a place like France?

this is something i acknowledged as personal preference from the beginning, and don't take it as seriously as clapping. i spent my childhood outside the US, and i'm not a big fan about how some things can get diluted sometimes.

for example, i'm Lebanese: what passes for Lebanese food here is not quite the same. it tastes similar, but is missing that X factor, the originality. i am nervous that this will happen to Aikido, so speaking Japanese helps me remember where it came from, and that it's a gift from the Japanese that should be respected.


PAG. Well, for what it is worth, I run a local dojo in a very rural area of Japan and all my students are ordinary Japanese people, who have grown accustomed to the idea of a foreigner teaching them a Japanese martial art in Japan.

and this negates my previous paragraph! :D

i have a fear of things getting diluted, but as it turns out, if Japanese don't care being taught by a gaijin, i probably have nothing to worry about.


Best regards, and feel free to correspond with me further, some if some points made here seem unsatisfactory.

thanks for the excellent post.

Peter Goldsbury
04-24-2007, 08:30 AM
Mr Saroufin,

Many thanks for your reply.

I should add that I have some basis for the opinions I hold about Shinto. For many years I have taught a course here to Japanese university students. The course compares the first half of Genesis with the first part of the Kojiki, which is the basis of Shinto beliefs. The differences are very striking and form the basis for a very fruitful comparison between a montheistic religion like Christianity, the main beliefs of which can be summarized in a creed, and a polytheistic religion like Shinto, except that Shinto is not really polytheistic and is not really a religion, in the Christian sense.

Like the term shinto, the Japanese equivalent of religion is a very recent term, coined around the Meiji Restoration in 1868, as a result of Japan's having to have 'freedom of religion', as a result of treaty obligations with western powers. Since Shinto is not a religion based on doctrine, a Christian who embraces Shinto has to make a serious mental leap, in the same way that a Japanese who has been brought up as an adherent of Shinto and who embraces Christianity, also has to make a serious mental leap.

However, the Shinto embraced by O Sensei was also part of an amalgam of practices involving Shingon Buddhism and the blend of borrowings expressed as Omoto-kyo. Thus I believe that O Sensei's spiritual pracices were much more of a hotchpoch than those of, e.g., a Catholic Christian.

Best wishes,

jennifer paige smith
04-24-2007, 08:57 AM
I have to disagree with the main post here.

The art may be from japan. But it certainly doesn't belong to the Japanese anymore like it once did. Aikido is now a world art. I see absolutely no reason to restrict ourselves to the japanese language or religion when practicing and I don't believe it was the founders wishes that we do. I would like to think that Ueshiba would have expected us to see aikido through our own faith.

Aikido does not belong to shinto. It does not belong to Japan.

I hate it when my kohai try to talk to me in japanese or call me 'Gidney san.' I'm an American, in an American dojo and I consider it rude. I'm fine with Senpai, but if you need to address me by my name, call me Mr. Gidney, or just Nathan.

O'Sensei stated emphatically over and over again that Aikido was a gift from the gods for all of mankind. It never belonged to him. It never belonged to Japan and it doesn't belong to us. He discoursed about the experince of having divine inspiration run through him at all times (hence take musu or courageous creation) and he would draw from that source. He said it was not his, it could not be locked up in a building (or institution). O'Sensei trained daily to maintain that state of relationship.

KamiKaze_Evolution
04-25-2007, 06:32 AM
Heya folks!

I'm sorry to you all for my impolite with such issues at past, i were too subjective with those but my intentions weren't judge or condemn anybody and i don't ever wanna force someone to change his/her mind. I had exactly face big arguement among Christianity at few years ago, but some of non-Muslims (i mean such as Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Sikhs, etc) at my country consider that Malaysian Muslims are more conservative with such issues. Evenly i attend prayer at Christian church, i have been heard direct answer from some pastors or evangelists and some regular attendees but i am sorry because i feel unflexible to tell you all that.

I have very closed Catholic friend and i went to discuss martial arts issue with him, and he has been discussed it with his Catholic father. The answer is a Catholic could attend physical excersice if that physical excersice has no smells belong to other than Catholicism belief, it sounds like conservative and that Catholic father is seens like very adjective with martial arts activities.

I found few articles from Islam Online Dot Net (http://www.islamonline.net) regards Muslims in martial arts, and i would like to say that i have just found an answer from few articles of that website. But i don't wanna say poor stuffs about religions, just want to making this dicussion area peace. Personally, i don't think that martial arts has totally struggle with Christianity belief and it is safety for me.

Finally, i would like to send apology to you all folks if i am really overspace with my languages. Anywhat, i am very thanks for your comments all and i know that some Christian Aikidokas are facing same situation with me. I don't ever betray my Jesus god all the time i study Aikido, and now i am not being subjective to my churchmates with martial arts issues.

Have a nice day! :ai: :ki:

jennifer paige smith
04-25-2007, 10:14 AM
Heya folks!

I'm sorry to you all for my impolite with such issues at past, i were too subjective with those but my intentions weren't judge or condemn anybody and i don't ever wanna force someone to change his/her mind. I had exactly face big arguement among Christianity at few years ago, but some of non-Muslims (i mean such as Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Sikhs, etc) at my country consider that Malaysian Muslims are more conservative with such issues. Evenly i attend prayer at Christian church, i have been heard direct answer from some pastors or evangelists and some regular attendees but i am sorry because i feel unflexible to tell you all that.

I have very closed Catholic friend and i went to discuss martial arts issue with him, and he has been discussed it with his Catholic father. The answer is a Catholic could attend physical excersice if that physical excersice has no smells belong to other than Catholicism belief, it sounds like conservative and that Catholic father is seens like very adjective with martial arts activities.

I found few articles from Islam Online Dot Net (http://www.islamonline.net) regards Muslims in martial arts, and i would like to say that i have just found an answer from few articles of that website. But i don't wanna say poor stuffs about religions, just want to making this dicussion area peace. Personally, i don't think that martial arts has totally struggle with Christianity belief and it is safety for me.

Finally, i would like to send apology to you all folks if i am really overspace with my languages. Anywhat, i am very thanks for your comments all and i know that some Christian Aikidokas are facing same situation with me. I don't ever betray my Jesus god all the time i study Aikido, and now i am not being subjective to my churchmates with martial arts issues.

Have a nice day! :ai: :ki:

Within my budo teaching alliance we have pagans, buddhists, christians, muslims, catholics, atheists, deists,taoists, jews, and secularists to name a few. My only question is what great beauty brought all of these people together (or what kind of restaraunt should we open?)?
Together we are a Budo family. :D

KamiKaze_Evolution
04-25-2007, 10:30 AM
It's multipute community, quite hard as well if a guy wanna opens a restaurant. Until now, the best is to prepare either "halal" or vegeterian foods. Quite complicated as a leader leads up multipute community, the reason is the leader must be fairfulness with the community.

heathererandolph
04-25-2007, 11:49 AM
If you were late to class, would you still clap?

Mark Uttech
04-25-2007, 12:09 PM
Some people, when late to class, after being welcomed to come on the mat, perform a seated bow and a gesture of clapping (silently).

In gassho,

Mark

KamiKaze_Evolution
04-25-2007, 02:36 PM
If you were late to class, would you still clap?

I would not clap if i am late to class, first of all is seiza at corner until sensei's allowance. After that, i bow to sensei all the way without closing my palms.

crbateman
04-25-2007, 05:04 PM
I'm supposed to clap at the start of class?? OMG, I've got to get my hearing checked. I thought they said crap. No wonder I can't get an uke... :eek:

Luc X Saroufim
04-25-2007, 06:15 PM
O'Sensei stated emphatically over and over again that Aikido was a gift from the gods for all of mankind. .

he certainly did.

i believe that on a practical level, it has its ties to Japan. most of O'Sensei's greatest influences are from there, not to mention the Judo behind the techniques, as well as the Katana. my cousin studies Karate and loves seeing the similarities between the two.

however, with reference to clapping, spirituality, and philosophy, i think you're right: O'Sensei's wanted peace for the entire world (after becoming a warrior and training the army).

who knows what his intentions were, but we can read our own meanings from what he said! :)

jennifer paige smith
04-26-2007, 02:48 AM
he certainly did.

i believe that on a practical level, it has its ties to Japan. most of O'Sensei's greatest influences are from there, not to mention the Judo behind the techniques, as well as the Katana. my cousin studies Karate and loves seeing the similarities between the two.

however, with reference to clapping, spirituality, and philosophy, i think you're right: O'Sensei's wanted peace for the entire world (after becoming a warrior and training the army).

who knows what his intentions were, but we can read our own meanings from what he said! :)

O'Sensei said his greatest inspiration was nature.

I also love the similarities between native expressions.

A similar spiritual practice to aikido is Lakota Spirituality, particularly the Sun Dance. Cool stuff:)

KamiKaze_Evolution
05-01-2007, 09:26 AM
Only narrowed mind persons consider that martial arts is heretic stuffs, i mean a type peoples like hairy face Talibanies army of Afghanistan country. Nobody can make correction to such persons, and such misunderstand is too deep and too serious.

Lachlan Kadick
05-01-2007, 09:51 PM
"The Art of Peace that I practice has room for each of the world's eight million gods, and I cooperate with them all. The God of Peace is very great and enjoins all that is divine and enlightened in every land." -The Art of Peace, 103

O'Sensei encouraged all religions and never forced it on anyone else. This is Aikido, only taken what is given, and not forcing upon other, especially when not asked.

I apologize if I have this wrong, but this is how I have always understood Aikido and religion.

Thank You,
Lachlan Kadick

Lachlan Kadick
05-01-2007, 10:08 PM
"In the Art of Peace we never attack. An attack is proof that one is out of control. Never run away from any kind of challenge, but do not try to suppress or control an opponent unnaturally. Let attackers come any way they like and then blend with them. Never chase after opponents. Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it."- The Art of Peace, 83

"Instructors can impart only a fraction of the teaching. It is through your own devoted practice that the mysteries of the Art of Peace are brought to life." -The Art of Peace, 46

Sorry, just some more, quotes I thought applied.

Thank you,
Lachlan Kadick

Mark Uttech
05-01-2007, 11:01 PM
I think it is impossible to never attack. Sometimes I attack mosquitos.

In gassho,
Mark

Lachlan Kadick
05-01-2007, 11:12 PM
I think it is impossible to never attack. Sometimes I attack mosquitos.

In gassho,
Mark

^_^ Good example. I feel, though this is only my quick opinion, that this kind of situation is more a defensive act, especially with the disease that mosquitos now carry. It is also near impossible to stop them otherwise from attacking you in most situations. I feel that O'Sensei meant avoiding all purely desire based attacks, such as attacking another, mentally, physically or spiritually.

Thank You,
Lachlan Kadick

dps
05-02-2007, 12:18 AM
"In the Art of Peace we never attack. An attack is proof that one is out of control.

Did O'Sensei say this?

David

kironin
05-02-2007, 05:07 AM
Did O'Sensei say this?

David

The translator John Stevens did.

Some people take issues with his choices in translation.

kironin
05-02-2007, 05:23 AM
I have zero interest in embracing in Shinto and found Gleason's book to be pretty ridiculous personally.

We have never clapped. Whether it's our Aikido Reiho or if I am visiting somewhere another Aikido organization's Reiho or my Iaido organization's Reiho, I view Reiho simply as a nice formal way of putting myself in the moment and focusing my awareness on the practice at hand rather than what is going on with my life outside the dojo.

When wielding a razor sharp sword, this is a very practical matter. Given the potential for injury in aikido, it should be there too but I think students sometimes get too complacent about the danger and risks of practice.

Just my personal feeling.

Ellis Amdur
05-02-2007, 12:00 PM
In my dojo(s), 1) we bow twice, clap twice, bow once in Araki-ryu, 2) bow once in Buko-ryu, do not clap, but line up sempai to kohai which we don't do in Araki-ryu, and 3) when I teach aikido on my own ground, we bow once. If I am at someone else's dojo teaching, I ask the dojocho (boss of that dojo) to bow in and follow along as he or she does bowing to the kamiza - thus, I've clapped twice, thrice or four(th). Then I step up and bow ONLY to the students.
If one of my students - in America or elsewhere began speaking Japanese (excepting Japan, of course, or a native Japanese speaker on my mat) - or clapped when I didn't, or even mimed clapping without making contact with his/her hands (silly, in my opinion, because the gods thereby wouldn't hear you, so what would be the point, such rites being about pleasing the gods, not yourself) - I'd ask them to stop and never do that again. If they did it again, I'd tell them to leave my mat and never return.
If they wanted to discuss their ideas on what was right, I'd be happy to listen after a class. I would decide if I agreed or not - and decide by fiat, almost surely leaving things absolutely unchanged.
I would also expect the student to wholeheartedly commit to whatever decision I made, further expecting them to view it as the "only" way to the knowledge I was offering and they were soliciting. If they, like Galileo when ordered by the Inquisition to return to a geocentric view of the universe, mumbled "Yet it moves," then she or he should find another dojo and sensei who made the earth move for his or her. (Note, my friend, that Galileo was right - and you might be too - irrelevencies, to a considerable degree, in this context).
P.S. - I used to argue with one of my sensei quite frequently - we almost came to blows on several occasions - and he actually ended up coming around to my point of view, usually by waiting a few weeks and claiming that he had a "new idea" - mine - which he made no reference to. I'm not saying shut-up - but I am saying there are consequences, among which applause is unlikely.

Best

tarik
05-02-2007, 02:18 PM
I would also expect the student to wholeheartedly commit to whatever decision I made, further expecting them to view it as the "only" way to the knowledge I was offering and they were soliciting.

I thoroughly agree with this, but expect to hear from lots of people about how 'undemocratic' this is or how unfair, or how "un-aiki" (what that seems to mean with how it's usually used around here is that if you don't agree with me, you're not folowing the spirit of aikido... WTF?!).

Democracy is not on the table. It's entirely fair, and it's entirely "aiki" (as I understand aiki to be 'fitting appropriately').

I'm not saying shut-up - but I am saying there are consequences, among which applause is unlikely.


:D ;)

THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE

Robert A. Wilkins
05-24-2007, 08:10 AM
Luc,
Don't worry Gleason does not teach alot of classes. I think he does alot of seminars and outside events which keeps him busy. At any rate they don't clap either.

Are you at New England Aikikai?

Actually, Gleason Sensei teaches three classes a week. FYI, it has been the standard practice to clap twice at the beginning and ending of every class at Shobu Aikido for as long as I've been there.

jennifer paige smith
05-24-2007, 10:39 AM
Only narrowed mind persons consider that martial arts is heretic stuffs, i mean a type peoples like hairy face Talibanies army of Afghanistan country. Nobody can make correction to such persons, and such misunderstand is too deep and too serious.

Every person has a heart and a mind and a body. It is our job to train to get in. whether they be Talabanies, CIA covert operatives, Sandanistas, 'Red' Chinese, veterans of illegal wars, Hamas ( I could go on) and all the other 'bad guys' to us or someone else.

jennifer paige smith
05-24-2007, 10:47 AM
^_^ Good example. I feel, though this is only my quick opinion, that this kind of situation is more a defensive act, especially with the disease that mosquitos now carry. It is also near impossible to stop them otherwise from attacking you in most situations. I feel that O'Sensei meant avoiding all purely desire based attacks, such as attacking another, mentally, physically or spiritually.

Thank You,
Lachlan Kadick

off subject I believe, but. It isn't the physical action it is 'the mind' to attack. Meaning what is the purpose of your extension? What image are you developing, like a photo?

Toby Bazarnick
06-26-2007, 05:23 AM
Luc,
Don't worry Gleason does not teach alot of classes. I think he does alot of seminars and outside events which keeps him busy. At any rate they don't clap either.

Are you at New England Aikikai?
Joseph, we've always clapped and Gleason Sensei teaches often.

In February when I was in Boston last, he was teaching 5 classes: Tue/Thu 5:45-6:45 & 7-8, and Sun 10-noon (usually an hour of sword).

Luc, I believe that his teaching is rare, valuable and accessible...worthy of a long commute. The inconvenient truth is that it's best to get real info in person.

Shobu Aikido of Boston's schedule is posted on www.shobu.org

Toby Bazarnick
06-27-2007, 05:01 AM
there's no way i can make it to class on time, because no train goes there. i need to go to a dojo with train access. i've done all the necessary dojo searches and visited the ones i was interested in.
Luc, after a more careful read of this thread, I too am having trouble feeling your pain...

Did you visit both Shobu (Gleason Sensei's dojo) and NEA (the late-Kanai Sensei's dojo)? These places were not interesting to you?

They're both easily accessible by train/bus: NEA at a major train stop 25 min. from downtown and Shobu Aikido is a 45 minute commute from downtown Boston by train & bus.

Commuters arrive (sometimes late) at Sensei Gleason's 6:30-8pm classes twice a week and also go to his 2-hour class on Sunday (there's even a 9am sword class!). He's teaching in a Summer Gasshuku in a month, a Weapons Seminar in about 10 days, plus Basics Seminars, Open Houses, etc.

Many people more fastidious/heady than you sculpted parts of their lives around training in Boston for a time. You have what most aikidoka refer to as "a golden opportunity" - turn off the computer and go train.

Sonja2012
06-29-2007, 05:17 AM
I have been to at least two seminars where the teachers (both of them direct students of O Senseis or students of one of his direct students) claimed that their way of bowing in was "the right way" and "how O Sensei did it". Needless to say that they both did it in different ways :)

If anyone tries to convince me of doing something "because this is how O Sensei did it" then that just makes me suspicious. However, if they explaining to me why they do it the way they do it, then that gets my attention and interest.

If there is one thing that I have learned then it is this: If you put 100 aikidoka in a dojo and ask them for the right way of clapping/bowing/putting on the hakama/doing ikkyo/(*insert technique of your choice*) then you will get 100 different answers. It gives me food for thought and is the basis for such a wonderful discussion board as aikiweb, but instead of discussing clapping for hours (which timewise takes up roughly 1% of practice) Id much rather go and train...

And regarding shintoism/Omotokyo: I cant remember where I read it, but didnt O Sensei used to get upset if he caught people "imitating" him in the way he prayed, etc? Does anyone remember who wrote that?

Ryan Sanford
07-10-2007, 02:44 PM
But it DOES mention JEWDO! (way of the Jew) anyone? huh?

*crickets*

Hey, I thought it was funny! :D
(oh, and I also liked your sig!)