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Khalid Williams
03-28-2007, 12:49 PM
We did Yonkyo last night, and my arms are still smarting from it... never yelped so much in one session. So here's the question...

Which do you find is the most painful technique?

(and I thought Aikido was all peace and love...)

Steven
03-28-2007, 01:42 PM
depends on who's applying it ...

justin
03-28-2007, 02:21 PM
depends on who's applying it ...

yes i would second that, but would add that Yonkyo to me is the least painful of pins.

mjhacker
03-28-2007, 03:35 PM
The way we train in my dojo, deliberate pain is never an element of any technique.

justin
03-28-2007, 03:55 PM
The way we train in my dojo, deliberate pain is never an element of any technique.

i dont think the original poster meant the pain was deliberate and maybe pain is to strong a word maybe slight discomfort would fit the bill better ?

tarik
03-28-2007, 04:27 PM
We did Yonkyo last night, and my arms are still smarting from it... never yelped so much in one session. So here's the question...

Which do you find is the most painful technique?

(and I thought Aikido was all peace and love...)

Depends on how much you're resisting :uch: instead of receiving and trying to recover/change what you're receiving.

mjhacker
03-28-2007, 04:31 PM
i dont think the original poster meant the pain was deliberate and maybe pain is to strong a word maybe slight discomfort would fit the bill better ?
That may, indeed, have been the original poster's intent.

However, I reiterate that we don't do any techniques that cause uke to choose to move because of pain (or discomfort). In my training, the neural messages sent from the local contact site to the brain are not what cause the technique to work. In fact, done correctly, uke shouldn't perceive anything there.

Everything we do involves kuzushi, that is destabilizing uke's posture. Uke doesn't choose to go down because nikyo (which we call "kote mawashi") hurts or is uncomfortable, but rather because his posture is compromised. In fact, uke doesn't make a conscious choice at all. Gravity wins.

I demonstrated this very thing to a brand new white belt (for whom I have some hope, based on his demonstrated perceptive abilities) just last Thursday. When I grabbed his "wrist" (kote, actually) hard, he said he (obviously) felt it at the location where I grabbed him. Yet when I barely touched him, but applied kuzushi properly, he grunted and looked puzzled. With no prompting at all from me, he responded:

"I felt that one in my knees..."

If you haven't felt it, it's awfully hard to describe, let alone believe.

Alec Corper
03-29-2007, 02:24 AM
I agree with Michael that pain compliance is way behind correct kuzushi in the application of Aikido. I would say, however, that the principle of atemi, disturbing the mind as an aspect of kuzushi, can also apply to a momentary pain which freezes the mind at an other place so that kuzushi follows elsewhere. Mostly it is a question of where tori's "mind" is, on a wrist, or on the centre, literally and figuratively.

mjhacker
03-29-2007, 08:47 AM
I would say, however, that the principle of atemi, disturbing the mind as an aspect of kuzushi, can also apply to a momentary pain which freezes the mind at an other place so that kuzushi follows elsewhere.
My atemi does not only not hurt (although it can), uke often can't even feel it. I find that if uke feels me doing anything at all, let alone hurting him, I'm doing something wrong.

Alec Corper
03-29-2007, 10:08 AM
Wow, thats all I can say :hypno:

mjhacker
03-29-2007, 10:22 AM
Wow, thats all I can say
The first time I felt (or rather, didn't feel) this from my teacher, I couldn't even muster a "wow." At the time, I was living in Japan, but had never experienced someone enticing me to twist myself up onto the floor without the slightest notion of how I got there. No pain, no discomfort, no comprehensible reason. This is why I moved to Arizona.

I still grin like an idiot every time. (Some would say that's my natural state.) Even though I now "know" how he's doing it, I still have no idea...

DonMagee
03-29-2007, 12:08 PM
I hardly notice bruises on my arms anymore. They are fairly immune to most pain.

However I did get put in the hospital Monday. I was throw down and landed on by a guy a little bigger then I was. The force on the throw was much much harder then anything I felt before. I did a nice fall but no fall in the world would of saved me. luckily I'm just bruised in the ribs, back, legs, and arms. They thought I busted my organs. Nothing like waking up to find yourself on the mat in horrible pain, getting blood work, cat scans, and all that other fun stuff to find out you are perfectly ok.

Never let anyone tell you judo/jiujitsu is a gentle art!

MikeE
03-29-2007, 07:47 PM
When it comes to yonkyo; I like to talk about cumulative joint locking. Controlling uke's center via the locking of coordinating joints all the way to the hips and floor.

I always say that pain in yonkyo is just icing on the cake. Not the best part of the cake, but it can be appreciated.

MikeE
03-29-2007, 07:49 PM
When it comes to yonkyo; I like to talk about cumulative joint locking. Controlling uke's center via the locking of coordinating joints all the way to the hips and floor.

I always say that pain in yonkyo is just icing on the cake. Not the best part of the cake, but it can be appreciated.

I of course reserve the right to change this view as my understanding of the technique and art grow :)

Khalid Williams
03-30-2007, 08:10 AM
i dont think the original poster meant the pain was deliberate and maybe pain is to strong a word maybe slight discomfort would fit the bill better ?

Oh no, pain is definitely the right word:) I'm speaking here about the hold after the pin is made, not the actual movement, which is not really painful (as far as yonkyo's concerned). When they kneel on your arm just below your shoulder, whilst holding the yonkyo, and apply pressure - it hurts!

Also, it was the first time I'd experience yonkyo (I'm a newbie), and I was expecting it to be a pin similar to Ikkyo, so I was..... surprised.