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Haowen Chan
03-27-2007, 05:16 PM
Hullo!

I'm thinking of taking up an internal martial art to improve my health and constitution. I have qualified instructors in the area for ki-aikido and internal CMA (taiji, bagua, xingyi). The Chinese shifu is more experienced but more expensive compared with the local Ki-society branch, so I am having a dilemma in choosing. I want to be well-informed about this choice since I will be devoting many years to studying whichever art I choose.

I am wondering, is Ki-development an effective method for learning the new bodyskill of relaxed energy (aka Ki / Qi)? I've heard enogh success stories in taiji that I believe it is really effective for internal skills training: if you're really patient, have a good teacher and just hold true and keep practicing for years. Is this same phenomenon also empirically true for ki-development, i.e. the yudansha of the ki-society really can demonstrate peng-jin, fa-jin, etc?

Which art is most appropriate for which kind of person? What are the relative merits of Ki-Aikido vs internal CMA?

Thank you very much for your responses!

Josh Lerner
03-27-2007, 07:40 PM
Hi Howard,

I'll just state the obvious, before the firestorm starts. Figure out what kind of skills in particular you are interested in, see which instructor actually can demonstrate them in a way that is convincing to you, look at their students to see if the instructor is both

a) willing

and

b) able

to teach the skills to others, and go from there. If you are interested in body skills more than styles, make a choice by the instructor and, more importantly, by the quality of their students. Is the instructor actively trying to make his or her students better than the instructor is? Do they also have the skills, or are they merely satellites orbiting around the charismatic and powerful Sun, happy to be basking in its beneficient warmth?

Be aware of the fact that if you don't have experience with these skills beforehand, you don't really know what you are looking for, so you are in a bit of a Catch-22. To learn the skills, you need a good teacher, but in order to know if the teacher is actually good, you need some skills yourself. Don't worry too much about that now, just keep it in the back of your head. Keep your eyes open, and get ready to start sucking at these things for a long time, like the rest of us.

Josh

Ecosamurai
03-28-2007, 11:11 AM
Is this same phenomenon also empirically true for ki-development, i.e. the yudansha of the ki-society really can demonstrate peng-jin, fa-jin, etc?

Which art is most appropriate for which kind of person? What are the relative merits of Ki-Aikido vs internal CMA?

If you're after fa-jing etc then the obvious place to go is Taiji. Both Taiji and ki-aikido will get you a good start on the way I'd say, having done both that both have plenty of stuff to teach and if you get a good start in one it will inform your study of the other. Doesn't mean ki aikido people can't do Fa-jing mind, just that they might not have a word for it, so go find the people who do have a word for it if you want what that word is supposed to be. One of my sempai does both Taiji and ki aikido and finds them equally informative and worthwhile. As far as he's concerned they are the same but different (in emphasis mainly). You shouldn't need to go to a Taiji class to make your aikido work IMO as the internal skills should be in aikido anyway (discussions as to whether they actually are or not should be left to one side for the present, suffice to say I think they should be and that they are in all good aikido I have ever seen IMO)

For myself I prefer ki-aikido, but that's just me and is largely to do with both my opinion of my aikido teacher (i.e. I don't think I've seen a Taiji or CMA teacher who can do what he does, this of course doesn't mean they don't exist, simply that I personally haven't seen them) and also my preference for the aikido waza over Taichi techniques.

I've had this discussion a number of times offline and usually it just degrades into a Chinese is better than Japanese argument, with the Chinese side insisting that everything good in Japanese MA came from China and the Japanese side telling the Chinese side they're wrong. Hopefully this won't happen in this thread. But it would be an interesting discussion to pick certain aspects of each of these internal arts and compare and contrast. I suspect they both are actually very similar in scope and depth and looking at both would be a worthy topic of conversation.

Fa-jing is the obvious starting point to my mind. Here's a question. How would one apply fa-jing to aikido waza and is it strictly necessary for them to be effectively executed? Note I'm not talking about Daito Ryu and my broad distinction between the two (DRJJ and Aikido) is that DRJJ tends to draw opponents in and aikido tends to throw them away. So you could probably re-phrase the question as: Is fa-jing (or similar) needed to effectively throw an opponent away from you? Especially if they are attacking with force and committment (force and committement issue might be best treated as a slightly different aspect of the same discussion)

Regards

Mike

PS - Yes, computer is doing simulations again for the next day or so, so lots of free time, prob not always a good thing......

Haowen Chan
03-28-2007, 06:17 PM
Thanks for the kind advice.

To be clear, I want to benefit from the "relaxed body skill" that is the goal of all internal martial arts. Not to make me a better fighter but to make me a healthier human being and be able to interact more efficiently and vitally with the world. So I'm after chi and jin, but not necessarily the skill of fa-jin per se, I'm not dreaming about bouncing people off walls or other such amazing powers.... I was using them as examples of demonstrations that there's something going on under the hood. Other examples may be stuff like the 0-inch punch. I don't know much about ki-tests but they may be good indicators too?

usually it just degrades into a Chinese is better than Japanese argument

Yes, I'm eager to avoid that silliness. Let's work on the premise (which I believe) that everything is good for something and every skill is best for someone. I am seeking information on the general relative merits of each system... although I am starting to see that perhaps I am asking the wrong questions. I'm getting the feeling from these responses that the attitude of the teacher is equally important (perhaps more so) compared with their skills, with the compatibility of the student and the art being secondary to that.

preference for the aikido waza over Taichi techniques

I would like to get more information if you don't mind. Why do you like one more than the other?

Also, do you feel that the ki-development exercises are (for you, personally, no need for generalisations) just as effective as taiji in training the "relaxed body skill" aka "ki". Perhaps you feel some of them are better for you? In what way? I like to learn by having the "hows" and "whys" explained to me... which is not so great for certain styles of taiji instruction which feels mostly like "sink or swim".... I'm willing to work hard but I'm can be really dense and lacking bodily intuition. So I'm a bit wary of "just do it" kinds of instruction where I'd likely fall into the majority of people who simply "don't get it" in terms of ki. I'm looking for something that I can make steady progress on without having a natural talent for body skills.

Many thanks in advance for answering my sincere questions.

ChrisHein
03-28-2007, 07:08 PM
My Chinese internal martial arts teacher is probably one of the foremost in the nation. He recommends doing judo where it is available and cheap.

Upyu
03-28-2007, 11:22 PM
My Chinese internal martial arts teacher is probably one of the foremost in the nation. He recommends doing judo where it is available and cheap.

Think he meant if you just wanted to develop good physical conditioning/balance etc, not if you want to develop the internal skills, that or if you want to give your blossoming internal skills (like me) a test bed by people that don't know or care about these things ;)

Haowen Chan
03-28-2007, 11:51 PM
Think he meant if you just wanted to develop good physical conditioning/balance etc, not if you want to develop the internal skills, that or if you want to give your blossoming internal skills (like me) a test bed by people that don't know or care about these things ;)

Hi Rob, if I was in Tokyo I'd definitely check out Aunkai... do you have any opinions about the relative teaching effectiveness of ki-aikido? Please send me a PM if you wish to be avoid the possibility of a heated debate.

ChrisHein
03-29-2007, 12:19 AM
Rob,
I think he meant most judo guys have better internal skills then most "internal" people. I agree with him.

Upyu
03-29-2007, 01:28 AM
Rob,
I think he meant most judo guys have better internal skills then most "internal" people. I agree with him.

Course, that also depends on your standard of an "internal" guy. The people running around walking the circle, standing the san-ti that can't even hold their own against another grappler don't count ;)
The "internal hippies" don't register in my book.

A majority of the Judo guys I know use waaay too much pushin' and pullin' with their backs (Olympic Judo looks like "#$t if you ask me). OTOH I rolled with Aaron Field's Judo group and a couple of his guys were top notch as far as posture goes. Could they manipulate their movement internally? Not really, but they had basic frame/internal posture down. And that in itself makes them harder to throw.

So again, it comes back to the quality of instruction. As far as Modern Judo goes, I think finding the right instructor that would give you a good base for this stuff are far and few between.
If they weren't you'd see a lot more Mifune's running around ;)

Ecosamurai
03-29-2007, 04:49 AM
I would like to get more information if you don't mind. Why do you like one more than the other?

SNIP

Also, do you feel that the ki-development exercises are (for you, personally, no need for generalisations) just as effective as taiji in training the "relaxed body skill" aka "ki". Perhaps you feel some of them are better for you? In what way?

Personal preference to the first and having a good teacher for the second.

Mike

DH
03-29-2007, 06:40 AM
Rob,
I think he meant most judo guys have better internal skills then most "internal" people. I agree with him.

This is a mistake. A confusion of variables.
Again, I argue on two fronts.
Fighting is fighting. MMA is the ultimate equalizer over everything; Aikido, Jujutsu, Boxing, Judo, and BJJ-which many mistake for MMA. But people are shallow. They only see what they see, and they want shortcuts.

a. One may have correct knowledge of some, many or most internal training methods and have low level skills in them.
b. Another may be a good fighter
b will defeat a
Does that mean internal skills are no good and fighters are better? For most people who only see whats in front of them-it means yes.

a. One may have correct knowledge of some, many or most internal training methods and have very good skills in them and is very tough and difficult to handle.
b. Aikido, can't touch him, Judo has a tough time with him as well, yet-good MMA'er defeats him.
Does that mean internal skills are no good and fighters are better? For most people who only see whats in front of them-it means yes.

What it really means that in an all out fight- fighters win. If you don't know how to fight you can't fight. Period

Consider being an internal guy with skills that stop just about anything, give you heavy hands and great takedown resistance, lock resistance and keep you light then heavy at will.
Then
Learn how to fight.


"Judo guys have better internal skills then most "internal" people. Total B.S. -He was slamming the "supposed" internal guys not giving props to Judo. You're just confusing the best skills in the world (grappling :smile:) ) with the best body training in the word (internal skills)

And don't think I'm dissing Judo-I love judo. A guy once asked me if he should take AIkido or Daito ryu? Which is better?
I told him to find a good Judo dojo, walk in, and ask them.
He stayed. ;)
Dan

Mark Jakabcsin
03-29-2007, 07:56 AM
a. One may have correct knowledge of some, many or most internal training methods and have very good skills in them and is very tough and difficult to handle.
b. Aikido, can't touch him, Judo has a tough time with him as well, yet-good MMA'er defeats him.
Does that mean internal skills are no good and fighters are better? For most people who only see whats in front of them-it means yes.

What it really means that in an all out fight- fighters win. If you don't know how to fight you can't fight. Period


Dan,
I have long felt and said that in a fight the meanest guy wins 9 out of 10 times. The portion of your post above agrees with my statement at least to some degree but seems to imply more. For much of my life I felt the ability to be mean (i.e. fight) and anger were the same thing or at least closely related. However the last few years Vladimir has shown me that the two are not the same and that anger actually hinders ones ability to fight affectively. This topic has become a larger part of my personal training. Any additional thoughts you care to share on the subject are greatly appreciated.

Take care,

Mark J.

DH
03-29-2007, 08:14 AM
Being mean has nothing to do with fighting. That bravado and nonsense is not needed at all. And many times is quickly shown the door by more skilled and relaxed men. Further still it creates latent tensions and breath loss.
It doesn't win fights against better trained men
Being mentally and physically prepared does.

I'll take openess, forgiveness, honesty and self-assessment over being mean, any day of the week and twice on Sundays. It's never hurt my game-it improved it. I've seen the change Vlad has brought to one guy's mindset. I think Vlad's on to some of the best things in life with his mindset. Make friends wherever you go. There is always something we can do to relate to our fellow man -even in conflict. And budo guys are sweating, losing, and getting up to try again. And coming back. The one word definition of our success is repeated "failure."
That alone gives us something to share as brothers.

Haowen Chan
03-29-2007, 08:15 AM
To keep things on track, a clarification: I'm not interested in grappling or waza or fighting. I want the core bodyskill that is taught in internal cma, ki-development (of shinshin toitsu aikido), aunkai, etc.

Mark Jakabcsin
03-29-2007, 09:47 AM
I had little time to gather my thoughts before my last post and it is clear to me that I did a poor job of getting my thoughts across clearly. Bad choice of words on my part. Unfortunately I do not have the time to correct my error now and as Howard pointed out this line of exploration departs from the original purpose of the thread (somewhat). While this is an interesting (to me at least) topic of discussion it will have to wait for another time and another thread. Gotta run.

Take care,

Mark J.

Tim Mailloux
03-29-2007, 10:57 AM
And don't think I'm dissing Judo-I love judo. A guy once asked me if he should take AIkido or Daito ryu? Which is better?
I told him to find a good Judo dojo, walk in, and ask them.
He stayed. ;)
Dan

Dan,
That sounds like a very smart guy! ;)

And for the record. "this person" asked if he should stick with the Aikido he had done for 10 years or switch to Daito Ryu?

DH
03-29-2007, 11:20 AM
Hhmmmm.
I hope that fellow eventually can see the benefits of internal training. The kind found in Daito ryu and in the orignal Non-Aikido martial tradition of Ueshiba Morihei and how-in the end it proves superior to just doing Judo, after all. :D

Tim Mailloux
03-29-2007, 11:30 AM
Hhmmmm.
I hope that fellow eventually can see the benefits of internal training. The kind found in Daito ryu and in the orignal Non-Aikido martial tradition of Ueshiba Morihei and how-in the end it proves superior to just doing Judo, after all. :D

I hope he can too..... But I am not sure he is THAT smart. He did choose to become an architect after all. What a bone head!

nalu
03-29-2007, 05:28 PM
In regards to M. Jakabcsin's post, #12;
That is a valid point and all too often overlooked. Most confuse anger with intensity or intent, and fail to see the detriment it causes. All that tension that is talked about as something to avoid, is amplified when angry and only inhibits your ability to perform.
Be it physically, mentally, verbally, what ever, we don't perform well with that tension in our mind / body.

Regards
Mike

ChrisHein
03-29-2007, 06:36 PM
My teacher is Tim Cartmell.

Undeniably a great, and knowledgeable internal master. Also undeniably a very formidable MMA, and Jiujutsu competitor.

Internal isn't so mystical. Good football players have great internal skills. So do Gymnasts, Tennis players, Baseball players, Track and field men etc. etc.

I don’t think that statement is slamming anyone. I just don’t think internal power is as hard to get as the rest of you.

DH
03-29-2007, 07:20 PM
My teacher is Tim Cartmell.

Undeniably a great, and knowledgeable internal master. Also undeniably a very formidable MMA, and Jiujutsu competitor.

Internal isn't so mystical. Good football players have great internal skills. So do Gymnasts, Tennis players, Baseball players, Track and field men etc. etc.

I donít think that statement is slamming anyone. I just donít think internal power is as hard to get as the rest of you.

Hmmm
Lets see your key points here.............
1.Every athlete has "great" internal skills.
2. It isn't so mystical
3.you just donít think internal power is as hard to get as the rest of us

and then......
"My teachers is an........."Undeniably great, and knowledgeable internal master"
uuhmmm.....Got it.
Thanks

mjchip
03-29-2007, 07:31 PM
I hope he can too..... But I am not sure he is THAT smart. He did choose to become an architect after all. What a bone head!

Well, atleast he has his looks to fall back on. :) Where are those 5oz. gloves again? LOL

Mark

Upyu
03-29-2007, 08:05 PM
My teacher is Tim Cartmell.

Undeniably a great, and knowledgeable internal master. Also undeniably a very formidable MMA, and Jiujutsu competitor.

Internal isn't so mystical. Good football players have great internal skills. So do Gymnasts, Tennis players, Baseball players, Track and field men etc. etc.

I donít think that statement is slamming anyone. I just donít think internal power is as hard to get as the rest of you.

Chris,
No one would doubt that Tim is a gifted MAist.
I've never met him, but he does talk about some pretty good concepts that overlap.
But what you just said kind of shows your ignorance on these matters. Sure some athletes, football players etc have internal "components" that are needed in order to do the internal "skills", but that doesn't make them "internally skilled" :)

No one has said that internal skills is mystical either, but it does have to be specifically taught.

Just curious, asides from Tim, who else have you had hands on time with that's generally accepted as having "great" internal skills?

ChrisHein
03-30-2007, 12:15 AM
Robert,
Who is generally accepting these masters?

I've wrestled with lots of people who have great internal skills. I've also played basketball with some people who have great internal skills. However if you believe only people who have trained in Chinese internal martial arts can have internal power, then Tim is the only one. How many people do I have to have “hands on time with” to know what internal is?

I would say internal is the ability to naturally use the body. To issue great power effortlessly, and move in a coordinated rhythmic fashion.

What do you call internal?

Dan,
1. Yes ALL top level athletes have great internal ability, that's why they are top level athletes.

2. It's not mystical at all.

3. I don't think it's at all hard to get (if you are comfortable with your body), and I don't know why everyone keeps harping on it.

I only mentioned my teacher because I always thought it was funny that everyone goes around acting like internal power was the holy grail, and he (a noted internal martial artist) said you could get it from doing judo.

Aran Bright
03-30-2007, 12:28 AM
Hi Howard,

I think you should consider what sort of training you are up for. Tai Chi should really be done with chi gung and is possibly more complex than ki-aikido.

Any aikido means a lot of rolling around, how are your knees? Ar you up for learning to roll, can you roll already.

Add to this what are the individual teachers/students like, class times, ect.

We found that most students take up a particular form because it fit in best with there work schedule.

Doing something is better than doing nothing, and both are good.

Upyu
03-30-2007, 12:52 AM
Robert,
Who is generally accepting these masters?

I would say internal is the ability to naturally use the body. To issue great power effortlessly, and move in a coordinated rhythmic fashion.

What do you call internal?

Well, the ability to "naturally use the body" is kind of vague.
The way you generate power using internal mechanics goes almost contrary to common sense, or what we feel as "power", so it's not a very good description.

"Moving in a coordinated rhythmic fasion" has nothing to do with it either. Unless you can describe it in more detail.

Generally accepted masters?
I dunno, off the top my head... Sam Chin, Any of the top chen guys Chen Xiao Wang, Chen Zheng Lei, Ushiro Kenji to name a few.
Ark can turn a couple heads here and there with what he can do, in fact he might be doing a seminar sometime in the west coast, we'd love to have you ;)


Dan,
1. Yes ALL top level athletes have great internal ability, that's why they are top level athletes.

I totally disagree, having rolled with top athletes myself, and people with good internal skills. I agree with Dan on this point, you can have great internal skills and suck at fighting, or you can be a great athlete/fighter and have squat for internal skills. :D


3. I don't think it's at all hard to get (if you are comfortable with your body), and I don't know why everyone keeps harping on it.


If you mean that it's not hard to get physically, or mentally, then maybe you're within the top .0001 percent whose body was formulated that way from birth. Something I highly doubt.
(If you popped out of your mom's womb with a physique like the Aun statues, well let me know what her diet was :D )

For the rest of us, it's not something that is easy to get. The musculature has to change, as is the way you move fubdamentally. It requires a lot of fundamental training to rewire and rebuild certain things in the body.

I haven't found anyone that can do internal skills disagree with me on that account yet. Oh, or the fact that the skills are "something more" that have to be shown.


I only mentioned my teacher because I always thought it was funny that everyone goes around acting like internal power was the holy grail, and he (a noted internal martial artist) said you could get it from doing judo.


If that were true then maybe you could answer why experienced Judo guys over here in Japan get stumped when they can't break my balance and throw me? Even if I stand there and let them.

ChrisHein
03-30-2007, 01:14 AM
Man that IS amazing!

DH
03-30-2007, 08:02 AM
Chris
Is the opinion that -Baseball and tennis players express great internal skills-a view of Tim's or your own?
Asn since they are not mysterious and widely known, care to elucidate on your understanding of specifics? Many here would like to know what they can glean from something ordinary around them.

George S. Ledyard
03-30-2007, 08:39 AM
A big issue is that many, if not most folks, have not had the experience of training with anyone who has these skills in a very developed way. So they simply don't know what Robert is talking about.

Years ago, Saotome Sensei, who is about 135 lbs., was doing some jo nage at a demo. His uke was a young guy fresh out of college who had played football there. He was literally twice Sensei's size and absolutely in peak condition. Sensei at one point made an error and dropped the jo.... we were always told to attack and hold nothing back in that kind of situation so my friend charged Sensei with the intention of grabbing him and breaking his balance. A former teammate of my friend was watching and later said that Sensei saw the uke coming and simply went into hanmi whereupon my friend simply bounced off him and fell down.

What allows Vladimir Vasiliev to hit you with strike that looks like nothing and put you in the ground? Or Ushiro Kenji to change the stability of your structure by how he touches you with his attention? What allows someone like Kuroda Sensei or Angier Sensei to drop you and you don't feel them doing anything? I am over 300 lbs and these guys, less than half my size, can do this.

The first step in trying to raise the quality level in Aikido is to have people see and preferably feel what internal power feels like. Most aikido one sees around is basically based on efficient movement principles and application of force against weak lines of the body. I could stop technique done in that manner even before I started doing any training that wound be construed as "internal".

It's not that these skills are absent within the Aikido community, it's that the small number who have some level of this skill are very small and as much of the discussion on the forum has pointed out, even the ones who do have something haven't figured out how to pass it on. That's why someone like Ikeda Sensei, who is Saotome Sensei's top student, is so excited about training with Ushiro Kenji Sensei. Ushiro Sensei has a systematic way of explaining and teaching these principles. Ushiro Sensei has allowed Ikeda Sensei and some of the others training with Saotome Sensei to start understanding just what it's been that Sensei had that we couldn't quite figure out. Saotome Sensei simply didn't have a vocabulary to describe it.

There are varying aspects of these skills as well. There is the aspect of how one uses ones attention (or ki, or whatever) to effect the opponent / partner. Ushiro Sensei's teaching focuses on this a great deal. I felt it for years from saotome sensei but didn't quite get what he was doing.
There is the aspect of neutralizing the opponent / partner's power on contact, which would be something that Yamaguichi Sensei used to focus on. You can really see this with teachers like Endo Sensei or Kuroda Sensei, or even with the top Systema guys. The there is the aspect of power release. Saotome Sensei has this more than any Aikido teacher in the States I have seen although Ikeda Sensei is close and getting better. But generally, this would be the aspect that I think is least developed in the Aikido folks I have seen and even the guys in Aikido who are the best at it haven't developed the skills to the limit. Some of the old guys had it, I haven't see it passed on to their students. Whereas you can see it in the top Chinese practitioners. I have felt it myself in my short exposure to what Mike Sigman teaches and it's quite extraordinary. I think it is this aspect especially that requires the kind of solo practice that Dan, Rob and Mike have been talking about.

This is why it is so important to get out and see what is out there (and why some teachers may not want you to). Most folks simply have no experience of what really high skill is. You can see this in these discussions when folks start talking at cross purposes because they simply aren't talking about the same things.

Mark Jakabcsin
03-30-2007, 08:56 AM
You can see this in these discussions when folks start talking at cross purposes because they simply aren't talking about the same things.

True.

Not knowing what we do not know is the peak of ignorance because we see no need to open ourselves to new ideas, hence at this point we have no ability to learn . At least when we know what we do not know we are open to learning and our ignorance can be fixed with diligent study, research and effort.

MJ

Mike Sigman
03-30-2007, 09:18 AM
A former teammate of my friend was watching and later said that Sensei saw the uke coming and simply went into hanmi whereupon my friend simply bounced off him and fell down.

What allows Vladimir Vasiliev to hit you with strike that looks like nothing and put you in the ground? Or Ushiro Kenji to change the stability of your structure by how he touches you with his attention? What allows someone like Kuroda Sensei or Angier Sensei to drop you and you don't feel them doing anything? I am over 300 lbs and these guys, less than half my size, can do this.
I would argue that all of those things are just different ways of using the same thing. Hitting, as in your example with Vlad, is somewhat a part of the same thing, although I'd have to point out that in my experience with hitters, quite a lot the good ones learn to put their dantien in their fist, etc., even though that doesn't necessarily mean they can apply that narrow aspect in anything else they do.

But the point I'm trying to make is that it's all the same thing and you begin to see that, after one's practice develops the normal perspective.

Best.

Mike

DH
03-30-2007, 09:31 AM
George and Mark
In either case the change will be slow. George's admonition to get out and feel is step one. And that requires someone, preferably more than one- who is worth going to meet and feel. Step two is probably more important. After you are satisfied that you have met someone with demonstrable skills. Ask to meet his students!!

Murray and Ron made a rather surprising but eye opening statement after dinner with us. They said their hope wasn't in me. They were prepared to meet yet another person with skills. But so what? We've all felt guys who were amazing or told were amazing blah blah blah.
Their hope was in my young guys who could not only do-but teach it. Murray commented in -the internal power in your aikido thread- that is was a sure sign that it can be taught and learned. I've had my full of guys who can't or won't teach. "So and so is great but they don't know what they're doing or can't explain it."
At some point you just have to stop caring. Good on them, what about you?
Then you have guys who are just starting to train this stuff and are now "teaching others" what they barely know!! Now their students are going to all run down a half baked trail. I'm trying to stay small. I opened the doors for the first time in my life and I am hoping for guys like us who just do the work and stay away from, and don't feel the pull or the "need" to teach.

Its probably safe to say we are going to run into this stuff being practiced half-assed like everything else we touch. And in the fullness of time even this will suck like most everything else we do.
Again I'm keeping my eye out for those interested in research in several places, to put together and maintain something that remains exceptional. Even the small amount of men now training with me weekly are having doubts about showing anyone for along while. They seem to have a good sense of propriety and respect for others they can lead astray.
In short it can be good days ahead-or more of the same.

George S. Ledyard
03-30-2007, 09:34 AM
I would argue that all of those things are just different ways of using the same thing. Hitting, as in your example with Vlad, is somewhat a part of the same thing, although I'd have to point out that in my experience with hitters, quite a lot the good ones learn to put their dantien in their fist, etc., even though that doesn't necessarily mean they can apply that narrow aspect in anything else they do.

But the point I'm trying to make is that it's all the same thing and you begin to see that, after one's practice develops the normal perspective.

Best.

Mike

I believe you are right... but its interesting how, as Ellis has pointed out in his writings, the different cultural considerations give these things different outward form. The Systema guys don't look like any martial art I have seen anywhere despite the fact that I think you are right that the internal skill development is the same. Takeda Sensei and O-Sensei didn't look like the Chinese teachers yet it seems obvious that the source for the internal power aspect was China.

I think that this is one of the things which makes it hard for Aikido people to look at one of the Chinese practitioners or someone like Vladimir Vasiliyev and to envision what those skills would look like in an Aikido context...

Mike Sigman
03-30-2007, 10:17 AM
The Systema guys don't look like any martial art I have seen anywhere despite the fact that I think you are right that the internal skill development is the same. Just to be clear about good hitting with a fist, for example. I've been hit by a lot of boxers, even one heavyweight contender. They can hit amazingly hard, even when they "do it lightly". But they've practiced hitting so long that certain basic elements of a good hit, such as including the body mass in the hit, show up in many of the practitioners' hits. It's ONE of the same major components of internal skills, although it's not all of them. But that being said, the major demonstrations of good "internal" skills are based on the refinements and permutations of only one or two core principles.

Best.

Mike

ChrisHein
03-30-2007, 10:35 AM
Dan,
If you come to my school, I'd be more then happy to give you a class or two.

Haowen Chan
03-30-2007, 10:59 AM
Many thanks to the various sensei who have added their input to this thread.

Is everyone here saying that Ki-society techniques haven't actually got the internal development factor? If so then... what Koichi Tohei tried to do in teaching shin-shin toitsu... was a failure?

I'm terribly confused. It's like being in a forest, and everyone keeps pointing to these few distant peaks, high level sensei and chinese masters... but when I ask a straightforward question like "I have two paths in front of me, ki-aikido and taiji, will either or both of these take me 1/3 of the way up the mountain" ... nobody wants to answer the question.

Mike Sigman
03-30-2007, 11:02 AM
George's admonition to get out and feel is step one. And that requires someone, preferably more than one- who is worth going to meet and feel. Step two is probably more important. After you are satisfied that you have met someone with demonstrable skills. Ask to meet his students!!I think that's a good start, Dan. I'd also suggest that people go meet some world-class expert like Li Tai Liang, Chen Xiao Wang, Chen Bing, etc., in order to get a feel of what someone with real skills *feels* like when they move, what they can do, etc. I would have named some Aikido guys in the above examples, but I frankly haven't felt any of them for a few years, so I'll defer until I'm exactly sure about who I'm recommending.

It's very easy to stop too soon with the first guy(s) that can "show you something good", kick your butt, who have great "lineage", etc., so the point I'd make is to keep looking around. That's how everyone does it.... always keep looking.

I have a couple of friends who studied on Taiwan for about 12 or so years with Hong Yi Xiang and others and based on their "credentials", etc., you'd think they would be someone you could go learn internal skills from. Unfortunately, they didn't really learn these skills because Hong had to save face with his martial-arts brothers on Taiwan so he loudly assured the members of the Taiwanese martial-arts association that he was not showing the good stuff to the foreigners. I learned this from a Chinese friend of mine who grew up on Taiwan. The point being..... you can't trust anyone to know everything they should know, so you need to keep looking for information from *all* sources. And constantly question yourself about what you know and believe. That's the hallmark of the real seekers.... and seekers always go further than "believers", IME. ;)

Best.

Mike

Mike Sigman
03-30-2007, 11:06 AM
Is everyone here saying that Ki-society techniques haven't actually got the internal development factor? If so then... what Koichi Tohei tried to do in teaching shin-shin toitsu... was a failure?

I'm terribly confused. It's like being in a forest, and everyone keeps pointing to these few distant peaks, high level sensei and chinese masters... but when I ask a straightforward question like "I have two paths in front of me, ki-aikido and taiji, will either or both of these take me 1/3 of the way up the mountain" ... nobody wants to answer the question.Go with the Ki-Aikido. It's going to depend on the teacher's abilities, but my experience would be that you have a greater chance of getting *something* from the Ki Aikido teacher than you would from most "Tai Chi Teachers".

Ki-Aikido has now become something slightly different than O-Sensei's Aikido, but *some* of the practitioners are definitely performing what I would call acceptable ki skills (but they can do better!!! ;) ).

My opinion.

Mike

Ecosamurai
03-30-2007, 11:39 AM
Ki-Aikido has now become something slightly different than O-Sensei's Aikido, but *some* of the practitioners are definitely performing what I would call acceptable ki skills (but they can do better!!! ;) ).

My opinion.

Mike

Lol, how gracious of you to point that out Mike ;) I do think similarly to you that Ki Aikido isn't Ueshiba's aiki though. Tohei Sensei himself said he only kept maybe 30% of the waza so it's bound to 'look' different, and if you watch Tohei move and watch film of Ueshiba, sure enough, looks the same but different. Though as has been said elsewhere internal skills will look different depending on which cup you pour them into. Pour them into a Daito Ryu cup you get Daito Ryu, Aikido you get aikido, systema, tai chi etc. Pour them into a cup which isn't in such good shape and they leak out the sides....

IMO, based on limited exposure to Tai Chi (compared with my aikido that is), the teaching methods for Ki aikido are specifically designed for passing this stuff on, whereas as Mike said, it can be a bit more haphazard in Tai Chi and hugely depends on your teacher. At the very least going and studying ki aikido for a while would give you some greater appreciation of what to look for if you then wanted to shop around at a later date. For example, when you're giving a ki test (an important part of learning how to use ki) after a while it becomes apparent whether the person will pass or fail before you touch them. I can usually look at my students before I even attempt the test and see that they won't pass it, and when I do perform the test I'm almost always correct in my assessment (it's nice to be surprised though!). That's a useful skill to have if you're gonna go shopping for someone who can teach 'internal stuff'

Regards

Mike

kironin
03-30-2007, 11:40 AM
1. Yes ALL top level athletes have great internal ability, that's why they are top level athletes.


I don't think you are talking about the same thing that people are talking about.

I have had some top level professional athletes (football and basketball) including a multi time league MVP in my school and their knowledge of internal skills was just about zero. What they did have was a great sense of discipline, an intense competitive nature, and a pure physicality about them. Otherwise they were complete beginners in terms of ki development or internal stuff in general.

training professional athletes in internal skills is nothing new...
http://www.ki-society.com/english/renew/touhei_50.html

Mike Sigman
03-30-2007, 11:50 AM
Lol, how gracious of you to point that out Mike ;) I do think similarly to you that Ki Aikido isn't Ueshiba's aiki though. Tohei Sensei himself said he only kept maybe 30% of the waza so it's bound to 'look' different, and if you watch Tohei move and watch film of Ueshiba, sure enough, looks the same but different. Though as has been said elsewhere internal skills will look different depending on which cup you pour them into. Pour them into a Daito Ryu cup you get Daito Ryu, Aikido you get aikido, systema, tai chi etc. Pour them into a cup which isn't in such good shape and they leak out the sides....

IMO, based on limited exposure to Tai Chi (compared with my aikido that is), the teaching methods for Ki aikido are specifically designed for passing this stuff on, whereas as Mike said, it can be a bit more haphazard in Tai Chi and hugely depends on your teacher. At the very least going and studying ki aikido for a while would give you some greater appreciation of what to look for if you then wanted to shop around at a later date. For example, when you're giving a ki test (an important part of learning how to use ki) after a while it becomes apparent whether the person will pass or fail before you touch them. I can usually look at my students before I even attempt the test and see that they won't pass it, and when I do perform the test I'm almost always correct in my assessment (it's nice to be surprised though!). That's a useful skill to have if you're gonna go shopping for someone who can teach 'internal stuff'
I don't particularly disagree with the above. My only comment was that probability (IME) says that Howard has a better chance to get what he's asking for in Ki-Aikido. I like Ki-Aikido. My only problem is that I think it stays at a basic level too much and never goes very far. My objection to that is based on the fact that I tend to *like* Ki-Aikido and therefore I may be expecting too much from it.

Mike

Mike Sigman
03-30-2007, 11:59 AM
1. Yes ALL top level athletes have great internal ability, that's why they are top level athletes. I don't think you are talking about the same thing that people are talking about. I'm not pointing at Chris Hein but trying to make a general point that Craig is highlighting. Once someone understands the essence of yi/intent (the "Divine Mind" as translated in O-Sensei's douka) in the use of ki/kokyu skills, there would be no way to think that top-level athletes would have "internal ability". It tells you right away that the conversation is, as Craig pointed out, about something quite different. It's what Dan and others have pointed out about many posts in the past.... you can tell by what someone posts pretty much what they know about the topic.

None of these conversations is going to be resolved in the hoped-for friendly manner until people get out and meet others. All the guys I know who are keenly into these things get out and meet; if it's productive they pursue; not productive, they move on. I've spent a lot of time and money "going to see" in my life.... but I recommend it as the best way to learn and the best way to avoid pissing contests on the internet. ;)

Best,

Mike

ChrisHein
03-30-2007, 04:48 PM
What does this "internal" you guys talk about do differently?

Is it for long life and health? If so, don't you think people who live athletic lifestyles will live longer and be healthier?

Is it about using the body to maximum efficiency? If so don't you think that the multibillion dollar industry that is the NFL has their guys at maximum efficiency?

Honestly if what you guys think you are doing is so different and so powerful, why wouldn't top level athletes be doing it?

I'm not saying that what you are doing doesn't work. and I'm not saying it's not good. I'm just saying it's not unique, and not that uncommon.

However if you guys are talking about special tricks of leverage, and special little chi/ki "tests". And some breathing exercises and making chi circle your dan tien. Then no, top level athletes probably don't do/know those things. They probably don't know them because there are more clear and effective ways to gain the same things you are gaining.

HL1978
03-30-2007, 05:00 PM
What does this "internal" you guys talk about do differently?

Is it for long life and health? If so, don't you think people who live athletic lifestyles will live longer and be healthier?

Is it about using the body to maximum efficiency? If so don't you think that the multibillion dollar industry that is the NFL has their guys at maximum efficiency?

Honestly if what you guys think you are doing is so different and so powerful, why wouldn't top level athletes be doing it?

I'm not saying that what you are doing doesn't work. and I'm not saying it's not good. I'm just saying it's not unique, and not that uncommon.

However if you guys are talking about special tricks of leverage, and special little chi/ki "tests". And some breathing exercises and making chi circle your dan tien. Then no, top level athletes probably don't do/know those things. They probably don't know them because there are more clear and effective ways to gain the same things you are gaining.

Some of this stuff has been taught to pro athletes before, someone else posted an article earlier about Tohei and japanese baseball, and Arsenio Advincula was hiredas a body mechanics/defensive line coach and taught the chargers the Okinawan interpretation of these skills for about 7 years. (They went to the superbowl his final year, then fired him and didnt go back for ~10 years.) Advincula said that the guys who started to "get it" had longer careers than those who didn't. He gave examples of people who did at one of his seminars, but I forgot the names.

There is a difference between muscular power and what people refer to as internal or qi power, however it has to really be felt to be appreciated. In my own experiences, people vastly overestimate the amount of bodyweight as well has stability that they are using in any sort of technique.

HL1978
03-30-2007, 05:18 PM
sorry the chargers didnt make it to the post season for 8 years thats what I mean't.

Mike Sigman
03-30-2007, 05:19 PM
I'm not saying that what you are doing doesn't work. and I'm not saying it's not good. I'm just saying it's not unique, and not that uncommon.

However if you guys are talking about special tricks of leverage, and special little chi/ki "tests". And some breathing exercises and making chi circle your dan tien. Then no, top level athletes probably don't do/know those things. They probably don't know them because there are more clear and effective ways to gain the same things you are gaining.Heh. Logically, if these things are not unique and not that uncommon, then you can do them? But you don't seem to know what they are, so it's a conundrum.

Actually, from watching a clip on some of the upcoming Chinese weight-lifters and some of the gymnasts being prepped for the Olympics, I suspect you're going to see some elements of these things in the Chinese Olympics teams. Personally, I think some of their athletes have already been trained with some of the aspects.

A couple of people who are Aikido teachers went to see what Dan can do in terms of jin skills and wrote fairly favorable reviews that it involved things they hadn't encountered before. Perhaps if you went to see Dan or Ushiro and asked to see/feel it would be worth your time. Then again... maybe none of these guys has your experience and skills.... but logically that means the skills must be unique and uncommon in some way. Hmmmmmmmm..... ;)

Best.

Mike

Tim Fong
03-30-2007, 05:41 PM
I have it on good account that the Chinese gymnasts (at least during the 90s) did some kind of iron body training , so that they could take falls on to hardwood floors.

Someone I know watched them train and said she thought it was "frightening" and that the gymnasts trained very hard. She herself had competed at a high level and was trained seriously, so I think she was in a good position to evaluate the level of intensity. My friend told me that she had never seen anything like it.

FWIW

ChrisHein
03-30-2007, 07:00 PM
Mike.
I think I can likely do any of the things you or Dan can do.

I know what I call internal. I just don't know what you guys are calling internal. Actually I'm not sure if you guys know what you are calling internal.

I will Gladly go see Dan if he's ever with in 300 miles of me. I think it would be fun, and trust me I'll report what happens.

Haowen Chan
03-30-2007, 08:05 PM
Ki-Aikido has now become something slightly different than O-Sensei's Aikido, but *some* of the practitioners are definitely performing what I would call acceptable ki skills (but they can do better!!! ;) ).
My opinion.


That's awesome, exactly the info I'm looking for! Thanks so much for your help here and in the emails.


IMO, based on limited exposure to Tai Chi (compared with my aikido that is), the teaching methods for Ki aikido are specifically designed for passing this stuff on, whereas as Mike said, it can be a bit more haphazard in Tai Chi and hugely depends on your teacher


Thank you Mike Haft for your help and comments!

Yes, that's exactly the feeling I got from having studied with two taiji instructors... in all arts you're at the mercy of the instructor, but in taiji it's more extreme, like if they're not strongly motivated to get you somewhere, you're definitely not going anywhere no matter how much you practice (unless you're some kind of natural body-genius, which I'm not). Whereas Ki-aikido is systemized and has its own teaching quality control and a uniform, standardized way to referring to exercises, applications and concepts, a way for students to get feedback on their own progress, and most importantly, to my mind, a organization-wide ethic of genuinely wanting to spread this knowledge around to benefit its students (this is common to all aikido). Taiji doesn't necessarily always have all of these and everything heavily depends on the instructor you happen to find in your local area.

Upyu
03-31-2007, 04:16 AM
Mike.
I think I can likely do any of the things you or Dan can do.

I know what I call internal. I just don't know what you guys are calling internal. Actually I'm not sure if you guys know what you are calling internal.

I will Gladly go see Dan if he's ever with in 300 miles of me. I think it would be fun, and trust me I'll report what happens.

Chris, does this stuff ring a bell for you?


About the cross or the back chest area:

Imagine shoving a drive shraft or any pole into a hole in the floor then
slide a peg through it horizontally. Next grab the peg as it sticks out left to right with both your hands.
Now imagine the hole you stuck the pole into is attached to an engine with 1000 ft. lb. of torque and I turn it on.
When you get out of hospital with your broken arms healed you can understand how powerful it can be if:

1. the pole is your spine

2. the peg is tension held across the back and chest

3. and the engine is the ground through your legs through your hips that turn the spine or pole at the waist.

Everything attached to it is launched without you dedicating much to the effort in a forward direction. It makes powerful kicks, punches, throws, and shoves without you giving much to lose or have someone take your balance.
You are wholely dedicated without being dedicated.
The frame is strengthened through connections throughout the body which can be strengthened further still through breathing and pressures there. You are using the ground for power. Of course, it is the way you are connected that allows this power move through the whole body from foot to hand.

The above example can be quite effective in ground grappling for reversals when you are on your back with someone on you giving you weight. You hold tension in the cross and turn using the ground from your feet through the hips, turning the spine like a drive shaft .....which......... turns the peg (your scapula area). Whats attached to the peg? Your shoulders and arms.
I have seen guys lifted off the floor and thrown. The key is to not try to throw them but to maintain connection and just turn into yourself.
Breathing and certain other things add to this.

stan baker
03-31-2007, 06:08 AM
Hi Chris

its sounds like the way you are talking you must be at least 8th dan what rank are you

stan

DH
03-31-2007, 07:58 AM
Mike.
I think I can likely do any of the things you or Dan can do.

I know what I call internal. I just don't know what you guys are calling internal. Actually I'm not sure if you guys know what you are calling internal.

I will Gladly go see Dan if he's ever with in 300 miles of me. I think it would be fun, and trust me I'll report what happens.

Chris
You can do what I do? You've never met me, or have seen me move.
I take it you can do this
Stand with your feet parallel knees locked, amrms straight out in front of you with the elbows locked then have someone meet your hands while they stand in hanmi and have them push and try to walk forward, and -they can't even lift a foot. Have them try and throw you and depending on their level either can hardly move themselves or can't even lift a foot?
Resist a 200 pound man pushing horizontally and upward on your chest while you stand there not using any technique whatsoever?
Have sandans and better in Judo try to throw you while you stand there and not do anything to counter them but they can't throw you?
Knock people out with single punches
Please understand these are not done using any technique yet.
The power and skills in martial movement go up from there.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search

I watched your video. The men there exhibited no structure that I could see. In fact their movement showed a structure that was disconnected and highly compromised. I take it that the men in the video's on your site were your new students?
A man with actual internal structure would simply never move that way.

All due respect Chris, you entered in the discussion by stating it was likely you can do what I do.
If that was you in those videos, then you clearly have no physical understanding of structure yet, much less internal power in movement. You are doing Aikido on an external level. But I could then see why you think baseball and any other trained athlete has "great" internal power.
Again no disrespect, But unfortunately, it also clearly demonstrates that you don't know what you're talking about in these discussions yet.

Ecosamurai
03-31-2007, 09:30 AM
Chris
You can do what I do? You've never met me, or have seen me move.
I take it you can do this
Stand with your feet parallel knees locked, amrms straight out in front of you with the elbows locked then have someone meet your hands while they stand in hanmi and have them push and try to walk forward, and -they can't even lift a foot. Have them try and throw you and depending on their level either can hardly move themselves or can't even lift a foot?
Resist a 200 pound man pushing horizontally and upward on your chest while you stand there not using any technique whatsoever?
Have sandans and better in Judo try to throw you while you stand there and not do anything to counter them but they can't throw you?
Knock people out with single punches
Please understand these are not done using any technique yet.
The power and skills in martial movement go up from there.

Think I have to agree with Dan. Many athletes have only a basic level of mind and body coordination. Sports psychologists I'm told often say things to sprinters such as 'think of the finish line' rather than where you are now on the track. This is pretty much the same as saying 'extend ki' in Tohei terminology. Why would they need to be told to do these things by psychologists if they were already doing them?

An interesting question for Dan. When you have this 200lb man push on your chest. Does he place his hand there and then push? Or do you allow him to walk three or four steps with 'intent' and then push your chest? Do you allow a slow steady push or is a good hard shove permitted? All valid questions I feel...

Mike

statisticool
03-31-2007, 09:45 AM
Stand with your feet parallel knees locked, amrms straight out in front of you with the elbows locked then have someone meet your hands while they stand in hanmi and have them push and try to walk forward, and -they can't even lift a foot. Have them try and throw you and depending on their level either can hardly move themselves or can't even lift a foot?

Resist a 200 pound man pushing horizontally and upward on your chest while you stand there not using any technique whatsoever?


Sounds worthy of http://www.nardis.com/~twchan/mag.html

I'm confused (but that is my perpetual state). Is MA about some some static body mechanic tricks, and why are they so hyped up in some 'internal' camps?


Have sandans and better in Judo try to throw you while you stand there and not do anything to counter them but they can't throw you?


Can we see video of you going into a judo dojo and having them try throws on you?


Knock people out with single punches


I think that is the least impressive.

Will you compete in the UFC someday? Just curious. It would be great advertisment for aikido and internal stuff.

Justin

George S. Ledyard
03-31-2007, 09:53 AM
Honestly if what you guys think you are doing is so different and so powerful, why wouldn't top level athletes be doing it?

I'm not saying that what you are doing doesn't work. and I'm not saying it's not good. I'm just saying it's not unique, and not that uncommon.

However if you guys are talking about special tricks of leverage, and special little chi/ki "tests". And some breathing exercises and making chi circle your dan tien. Then no, top level athletes probably don't do/know those things. They probably don't know them because there are more clear and effective ways to gain the same things you are gaining.

Chris,
You really need to get out more.You simply are wrong in this. What is being talked about here is different and it is clear that you haven't trained with anyone who is operating on this level or you wouldn't be saying these things. This intends no disrespect but it's apparent from your posts that you don't know. I looked at the video you posted and, while the practice is useful, there's no evidence of solid hara, no real aiki going on there. Denying what is being discussed here and hanging on to your previously developed opinions will not allow you to get better.

George S. Ledyard
03-31-2007, 10:17 AM
I'm confused (but that is my perpetual state). Is MA about some some static body mechanic tricks, and why are they so hyped up in some 'internal' camps?

Justin,
I have to chime in here... martial arts isn't about tricks... but what is being discussed are not tricks, they are demonstrations. What is being demonstrated is the foundation for technique. If you have this foundation your techniques have tremendous power with seemingly little effort.

There seems to be little point in these discussions to have and endless doubting going on by people who have no idea about what is being discussed. It's just like the endless talk about Systema by idiots on Bullshido who endless opinions but no experience. When invited to come play, they say no because its fake and not worth their time... so they continue endlessly to maintain its fake without any experience of it.

I had a great friend at the first expo whom I encountered in the hall at one point. He was all in a huff and said that he had walked out of Angier's class becaues it was all bull****. I basically ordered him back in there with the express instruction to get his butt into the front row and not leave until he personally had gotten his hands on Angier Sensei. A couple of hours later he said to me, "Oh, thank you. You saved me from making a real ass out of myself."

To some extent these discussions illustrate the points being made by the "internal guys". When you can have a discussion with a bunch of Aikido folks and there are a substantial number who seem unaware of what these internal skills even are.... it's an indication that there's a lot of Aikido out there that's not very good very good and people simply haven't any idea what this stuff feels like. If they had, we wouldn't be having these discussions and Dan could stop worrying that Aikido people don't believe him.

We need to get past the "doubting Thomas" stuff and get to the who's got these skills, can they teach them, and how do I get access? stage of the discussion.

ChrisHein
03-31-2007, 12:01 PM
Dan,
Where are you videos? I know I know, what you do is too secret. David Copperfield can do some amazing things too, but you never hear him talk about chi.

Ledyard.
You can check my teachers. They speak for themselves.

I hear lots of talk from all of you, but sure can't find an evidence of what you do. I put myself out there, because I believe in what I do. What do you believe in...besides inner net forums??

Ecosamurai
03-31-2007, 02:23 PM
We need to get past the "doubting Thomas" stuff and get to the who's got these skills, can they teach them, and how do I get access? stage of the discussion.

I don't doubt. But I have to disagree with you in some respects. My opinion has always been that this stuff is present in a lot more aikido than many naysayers give credit. Including yourself.

Ki Society has them they are aikido. Ki Society Internationale (split off from Ki Soc in Europe), Ki federation of Great Britain led by Ken Williams, the longest serving aikido teacher in the UK. Aikido Yuishinkai under Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei (was the heir apparent to Tohei Sensei until he resigned in the early 90s). In addition to these there are a number of other independent ki soc derived organisations based in the US I forget the names of.

There are also people in the aikikai who were formerly students of Koichi Tohei (he was the chief instructor after all). Not to mention Yoshinkan. In the book Angry White Pyjamas IIRC Twigger descibes a senior Yoshinkan instructor who had 'mastered the secrets of aiki' and could be held by two ukes who were unable to lift him from the ground. This description was of what I would think of as a low-ish level weight underside ki test, i know it's lowish level because I can do it and I'm not a great master by a long stretch.

Also, there are people who post around here like Dan Harden and Mike Sigman who know what they're talking about, I'm sure there are many others on the fringes of aikido as well as within the art itself.

My previous question for Dan (in the previous post) was important because it relates to the various levels of 'ki tests' that exist in Koichi Tohei derived teaching. I asked him those questions because they will explain what it is he does (and others have witnessed him doing so I quite happily believe them and him), I'm guessing from his descriptions and those of others that it sounds like he's doing stuff at the equivalent level of shoden or maybe chuden in ki development (maybe higher it's not possible to say without meeting him), but that he applies it in different ways than are typically done in ki society circles (i.e. aikido waza, whereas Dan probably does Vale Tudo type stuff), and is probably in a lot better physical shape than many aikidoka (physical fitness and strength makes a difference, but not like you're likely to think it would IMHO).

Think I might have made it onto Dan's ignore list though :o

Regards

Mike

Haowen Chan
03-31-2007, 03:52 PM
Ki Society has them they are aikido. Ki Society Internationale (split off from Ki Soc in Europe), Ki federation of Great Britain led by Ken Williams, the longest serving aikido teacher in the UK. Aikido Yuishinkai under Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei (was the heir apparent to Tohei Sensei until he resigned in the early 90s). In addition to these there are a number of other independent ki soc derived organisations based in the US I forget the names of.


Oh, I was wondering where all their Europe dojo were. KNK Internationale, that's an important one to remember.

Other lineages that trace back to Tohei that I know of include Kokikai and Seidokan, and Suenaka-Ha.

Also Shin Budo Kai (maybe?). Imaizumi sensei is a direct student of K.Tohei sensei but I don't know if he kept ki-development in his curriculum.

One day I might compile a big list of all these Ki-based aikido ryuha... and either update wikipedia with it or put it on some public website.... and save another newbie the hours of bewilderment that I had to go through grokking all these ryuha.

akiy
03-31-2007, 04:01 PM
One day I might compile a big list of all these Ki-based aikido ryuha... and either update wikipedia with it or put it on some public website.... and save another newbie the hours of bewilderment that I had to go through grokking all these ryuha.
Please feel encouraged to add to what's already in the AikiWiki here, if you wish:

http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Styles

-- Jun

Upyu
03-31-2007, 06:28 PM
Dan,
Where are you videos? I know I know, what you do is too secret. David Copperfield can do some amazing things too, but you never hear him talk about chi.

Ledyard.
You can check my teachers. They speak for themselves.

I hear lots of talk from all of you, but sure can't find an evidence of what you do. I put myself out there, because I believe in what I do. What do you believe in...besides inner net forums??

Actually, neither does Dan...
If you bothered to actually read the posts you could see Mike definining "Qi" as simply proxies for different physical and mental skills.
But even within those physical and mental skills you haven't said anything that suggests you understand what they are.

Care to comment on the quote I took from Dan? It should be fairly simple stuff, especially for a guy of your caliber ;)

DH
03-31-2007, 07:42 PM
Dan,
Where are you videos? I know I know, what you do is too secret. David Copperfield can do some amazing things too, but you never hear him talk about chi.
I hear lots of talk from all of you, but sure can't find an evidence of what you do. I put myself out there, because I believe in what I do. What do you believe in...besides inner net forums??

Chris
I am certainly out there. In fact more than I have ever been. I just did another mini-seminar with visitors from right here at good ol Aikiweb. I keep doing them and showing things to folks interested in trainining. We're having lots of fun and getting in good aiki training.
Hope you are too.
Sorry I'm not a video guy.
So far here's what I see though

Internal arts as Aiki
My point has been consistent that these skills are the cornerstone of all that is aiki. I have demonstrated this to many who did not know me and did not agree. Most-just like yourself from right here.

1. Just about every person has taken the time to write back saying the same things. That the training is relevant to "their" Aikido. With most stating clearly it IS Aikido
2. Most have been ignored outright
3. Some have been insulted as acholytes
4. No one not one has been directly asked about how it relates to Aikido
5. There isn't much a person can really say is there. You'd have to now tell them all they're liers, or stupid. Or now the detractors are in the the wierdest puzzle of all- having to tell all of them THEY now don't understand Aikido either.

And thats just me!!
Now you have all the guys who trained with Mike over the years, and now Rob.

It's getting to look rather desperate on the detractors side. Even sad.
Good luck in your training though.

Ecosamurai
03-31-2007, 07:59 PM
It's getting to look rather desperate on the detractors side. Even sad.
Good luck in your training though.

So what about those who don't count as detractors such as myself? People who have always believed that 'internal skills' are the bedrock of aikido? Why is it that you won't discuss these things with me? Why is it that you won't answer my questions about your 'internal skills'?

I don't doubt that you have them. I believe the testimony of those who have met with you and practiced with you. I just wonder what the true skill behind the hubris is. Why won't you talk about it? Why won't you answer this simple question:

When the 200lb man you described places his hand on your chest and pushes. Does he do this by slowly applying and increasing the force he exerts? Or does he place and shove you as if he was trying to put his hand on the wall behind you? i.e. push through you. Not push you?

Regards

Mike Haft

DH
03-31-2007, 08:25 PM
My previous question for Dan (in the previous post) was important because it relates to the various levels of 'ki tests' that exist in Koichi Tohei derived teaching. I asked him those questions because they will explain what it is he does (and others have witnessed him doing so I quite happily believe them and him),
I'm guessing from his descriptions and those of others that it sounds like he's doing stuff at the equivalent level of shoden or maybe chuden in ki development (maybe higher it's not possible to say without meeting him), but that he applies it in different ways than are typically done in ki society circles (i.e. aikido waza, whereas Dan probably does Vale Tudo type stuff), and is probably in a lot better physical shape than many aikidoka (physical fitness and strength makes a difference, but not like you're likely to think it would IMHO).

Think I might have made it onto Dan's ignore list though :o

Regards

Mike
FWIW I don't ignore you I just don't like reading the insults and characterizations you pepper your posts with. Nor do enjoy responding to you as I see you as baiting me.
I also don't like debating on the internet with folks who clearly don't have equal skills arguing with me over what I can or can't do. It's boring, I have to be in the mood.


Uhm....your previous posts about tests like
"walking into me?"
Ooookay

How about 310 pound 6.3" MMA guy pile-driving into me one after another for half an hour. WIth me standing there?
Uhm...how about a Holy Cross defensive end trying to slam me into the lockers?
Uhm...Collegiate wresttlers trying to take me down?
Power lifters at the gym while I stand there looking at them?

Ki tests?
Lets see. Today at a mini-seminar with folks from right here I had guys pushing on my chest while I stood on leg and then went up on my toes.
Then pushing on my head with me on my toes on one leg, then pushing on my back in between my shoulders with me up on my toes. There were losts of people in the room.
We also showed a training method for "giving up" structure and being overcome backwards on one one foot. You are stretched out and ready to fall over with a fellow pushing you over on your chest. I had new guys learning how to recover from that. Then some repeat guys learning to handle moving attacks themselves.
I don't really see them as meaningfull. I like moving and fighting as a better test anyway

MMA
Lost track of fighting with takedown resistense, lock resistence, and power strikes and kicks.

Why not talk about

WHY????????????????
This stuff is in Aikido
WHY????????????????
Men who've trained with Ushiro, Mike, Rob or me keep coming back and training and they....claim it's relevant to aikido.
WHO????????????????
Can teach this stuff and pass it on.

I think that's more interesting then another debate over whether or not it CAN be done.

DH
03-31-2007, 08:48 PM
I think I might have made it onto Dan's ignore list though :o

Regards

Mike

If you are not a detractor of point- then your continuing to engage me the way you do speaks for itself. Argue the skills and their relevance to Aikido, Mike. If you have yet another personal slight (like hubris) save it for P.M Like Jun asks.
There is nothing positive to contribute by continuing to insult me in almost every post.
Check yourself will you?
What positive contribution to the larger discussion of Ki in Aikido or Internal skills of Daito ryu in aikido would you care to further, based on my replies-WITHOUT- making personal comments about me?
Without using a single insult in a paragraph.
Try it.

I know Jun would appreciate it.

Why not try answering my own questions as you asked me to answer yours? Mine were more global and involve asking others. Ask those who have felt these skills in us? Try aiming your line of inquiry to those in your own art and what they think?

ChrisHein
03-31-2007, 09:03 PM
Rob John.

I don't understand what there is to "get" about that quote of yours.
It's a pretty basic, albeit it dramatic example of using (I'll use some fancy "internal" words for you) horizontal jing. I could go you one better then that and describe connecting to the ground to make upward force, or downward force; vertical jing.

The ground doesn't "make power", the ground only provides a stable platform to issue force from. There is a word for using it in ground applications its called "turning over".

Now if Dan would answer hafts question, all would be answered.

Ecosamurai
03-31-2007, 10:05 PM
FWIW I don't ignore you I just don't like reading the insults and characterizations you pepper your posts with. Nor do enjoy responding to you as I see you as baiting me.
I also don't like debating on the internet with folks who clearly don't have equal skills arguing with me over what I can or can't do. It's boring, I have to be in the mood.

If I have appeared to be baiting you, then I sincerely apologise. It was not my intention to do so.

I do feel that much of what you say is deliberately phrased to promote yourself and your abilities without answering the proper and worthwhile questions I sometimes put your way. I shall address each of your statements made below in the following spirit. Please note I do not doubt that you have these skills. I have only ever questioned your motivation in the way you present them here on these forums. I may be completely wrong about all of this but that is the nature of the internet and non-verbal communication, we both risk being misconstrued.


Uhm....your previous posts about tests like
"walking into me?"
Ooookay

How about 310 pound 6.3" MMA guy pile-driving into me one after another for half an hour. WIth me standing there?
Uhm...how about a Holy Cross defensive end trying to slam me into the lockers?
Uhm...Collegiate wresttlers trying to take me down?
Power lifters at the gym while I stand there looking at them?

Please define and describe "pile into me", perhaps it is an Americanism I may misunderstand.

When the 'Holy Cross defensive end tried to slam you into the lockers' (btw for the benefit of non-US people what is a Holy Cross defensive end?). Did you stand there and he simply bounced off you? Or did you use your hands to resist his movements? Did you move your feet?

Collegiate wrestlers try to take you down? Please describe this process and describe in detail how they attempted to 'take you down' including descriptions of where they placed their hands how they moved their feet and where you placed/moved your hands and feet.

Ki tests?
Lets see. Today at a mini-seminar with folks from right here I had guys pushing on my chest while I stood on leg and then went up on my toes.
Then pushing on my head with me on my toes on one leg, then pushing on my back in between my shoulders with me up on my toes. There were losts of people in the room.

These are standard ki Soc tests. Standing on one leg is in fact a test used for assessment of Ki Soc rank. The Ki Soc test of 'standing naturally' involves standing with feet shoulder width apart and having the heels rest lightly on the ground (effectively tip toes in terms of balance and execution of principle). From your above description above I too can say I have had people do these things to me. I do not claim to be able to do 'Ueshiba's aiki'. Please explain how the things you do are different from what I do when people test me this way when standing on one leg or on tip toes?

We also showed a training method for "giving up" structure and being overcome backwards on one one foot. You are stretched out and ready to fall over with a fellow pushing you over on your chest. I had new guys learning how to recover from that.

Please explain how this is different from how I teach people to 'recover posture when they get overwhelmed during a ki test', meaning that if I push on your shoulder and you allow your shoulder to move backwards by not stopping my ki from entering your body, you can recover your posture by moving from your centre and regaining control of your hips by doing so.

Then some repeat guys learning to handle moving attacks themselves.
I don't really see them as meaningfull. I like moving and fighting as a better test anyway

As do I

MMA
Lost track of fighting with takedown resistense, lock resistence, and power strikes and kicks.

I emphasize strikes and kicks less but I emphaiseze resistance as much as I can with my senior students.

Why not talk about

WHY????????????????
This stuff is in Aikido
WHY????????????????
Men who've trained with Ushiro, Mike, Rob or me keep coming back and training and they....claim it's relevant to aikido.
WHO????????????????
Can teach this stuff and pass it on.

I think that's more interesting then another debate over whether or not it CAN be done.

I have never debated with you that it can be done. I also believe that you personally have these abilities. I too have some of them. I am interested in a discussion of the extent of yuor abilities and I think this would be a worthwhile addition to the debate. I stated in a previous post in response to George Ledyard who I think can teach these things and I included you and Mike Sigman in this list. I think it is worthwhile to discuss who
can do these things and to what extent they can do these things.

Your descriptions are vague, from my present point of view this seems deliberate and so I call it hubris and question your motivations. I am sorry if this causes you undue offense but it is a worthy point of debate. I would have absolutely no problem giving you a very public apology if needed.

Would you care to explicitly answer my questions in as much detail as possible? It may simply confirm that you are indeed as good as you appear to be based on statements from yourself and things people who have trained with you have said. It may also expose interesting things for you and your students to consider, exactly in the same manner as your statements here seem to be intended to encourage aikidoka to expand their own practice in accordance to the use of internal principles.

I am not baiting you. I am sincerely interested in understanding what exactly it is that you can do in terms of internal skills. I do not have all of the abilities you describe as they appear to be from your descriptions. I am very interested in learning more about this and I have the needed experience (and gumption too I think) that allows me to ask fairly intelligent questions concerning these issues (at least I like to think so I hope that you can prove me wrong via informed debate/discussion).

Regards

Mike Haft

Upyu
04-01-2007, 02:28 AM
Rob John.

I don't understand what there is to "get" about that quote of yours.
It's a pretty basic, albeit it dramatic example of using (I'll use some fancy "internal" words for you) horizontal jing. I could go you one better then that and describe connecting to the ground to make upward force, or downward force; vertical jing.

The ground doesn't "make power", the ground only provides a stable platform to issue force from. There is a word for using it in ground applications its called "turning over".

Now if Dan would answer hafts question, all would be answered.
Sure it's basic, but that "basic" component is something 99% of people can't do. Kudos if you can, and my apologies if I misjudged you. I still have to disagree that top athletes do this kind of stuff.

The ground doesn't make power, I agree. It's more a metaphore.
OTAH, do have to agree with Dan that looking at the vids... whatever connections are in you or your students body aren't apparent.
A connected guy tends to have a different "look" when they move.
Course, if I'm wrong I'll be the first to man up and buy you a brew if we ever meet :)

I figured Tim would be using this stuff in his ground work though, I take it that's what he calls it?

Do you guys ever "torque" the insides to generate power?

ChrisHein
04-01-2007, 03:13 AM
Tim would likely be the first to tell you that Bjj guys do the same thing internal guys do.

I don't know what terminology you are using with "torque the insides".

I don't really care how my stuff "looks" on the outside. I just care if it takes little effort and has big results. It does.

Upyu
04-01-2007, 07:33 AM
Tim would likely be the first to tell you that Bjj guys do the same thing internal guys do.

I don't know what terminology you are using with "torque the insides".

I don't really care how my stuff "looks" on the outside. I just care if it takes little effort and has big results. It does.

That's a pretty big statement to make...
I've rolled with BJJ blacks over here that've never felt this stuff before. Maybe Pete can chime in on his experiences (who trained with the a4Mbar g0d Rickson Gracie himself back in the day? :) )
(I've got several good annecdotes involving Carlson Gracie having a run-in with some DRAJJ guy with a bit of this skill at a seminar )
Sure a lot of the good rollers they have great posture when they're on the ground, know how to use the kua(pelvic region) to balance themselves etc (its a wonder it goest to #"%t when they stand up), but using more complicated internal movements on the ground...I'd have to say I'm more skeptical on that. ;)
I've never felt it before.

If I were you, I'd set a small portion within you that says maybe, just maybe you haven't gotten the whole picture yet :D

As for torquing the insides, put simply I mean, if you were to Torque the lower body connection (the arch running along the inside of the knees connected to the tailbone/mingmen and tanden) against the upper body connection (the cross that was mentioned), with the spine as the axis, you can get some pretty potent destabilizing power to put into kicks/strikes without any windup. You can wholly commit without committing. Has a bonus of bouncing strikes back to your opponent as well.

And as for your PM, there's no need to refer me to Tim's site, you decided to put yourself on the spot, so its probably best you try and answer what you do to the best of your abilities ;)

TAnderson
04-01-2007, 09:10 AM
I've got several good annecdotes involving Carlson Gracie having a run-in with some DRAJJ guy with a bit of this skill at a seminar

Hi Rob,

I would love to hear this one...

Thanks,
Tim Anderson

DH
04-01-2007, 10:08 AM
Deleted for future edit

ChrisHein
04-01-2007, 11:54 AM
Rob,
I told you about Tim's site because I'm not going to put words in the mans mouth, if you want to know about him, ask him.

If you want to know about me ask me. You said you "thought Tim would be using this stuff in his ground work", I told you to ask him.

As for me, I use this stuff in everything I do. It's good body use. It's also common and natural.

I'm always up to be proven wrong. But no one is stepping up to the plate to prove me wrong. I hear a lot of talk but that's it. Sure maybe there is a chance you all are doing something I don't comprehend. But it's not apparent to me in the videos I see of Akuzawa, or Ushiro, or your video's Rob. I don't see any of you doing anything unique.

If any of you get near me, I'll go see you. Other then that, I've trained with some great martial artists, and been in several fights organized and not, this is where my opinions stem from.

Mike Sigman
04-01-2007, 12:14 PM
George.... not just in this thread, but in a number of other previous threads also, go back and count how many people are "already doing this stuff". Bear in mind that some of the people visiting with Dan also asserted they were "already doing this stuff". Not to disparage, but just to make an observation, the "Hidden in Plain Sight" part of a lot of this is affected by the fact that there are too many "full cups", not only in Aikido, but many other arts, as well.

Even though I felt completely sure that I knew within reasonable parameters what Ushiro Sensei was doing, I made the trip to go see, just in case there was something new that I hadn't seen. Even though I have worked out a many Ki-Society dojo's in the past (out of that same curiosity), I still went to see Shaner Sensei in order to see what he did. I picked up some useful items and thought-starteres. Even though Rob and I have corresponed on the internet, we still made long trips in order to check out each others stuff. We both picked up new ideas and perspectives. If you're really a martial artist and curious to keep improving, you make the effort. It's a waste of time talking to the people with cups that are already full..... but they're the same ones who came to dominate Aikido for too long and who put Aikido in a position where so many are saying "wait a minute.... something must be missing". It's not only Hidden in Plain Sight, it's Ignored When it's in Plain Sight. ;)

Best.

Mike

DH
04-01-2007, 12:21 PM
It's also common and natural.

I've never met the man who said that-who had a clue. In fact everyone every, single, one acknowledged they were dealing with something unknown to them. In and of itself-it proves you don't understand internal skills so you relegate them to what you see. You should go meet someone who instead of saying they got it-actually does.

FWIW Your fights don't prove anything other than you fought some people who fought back. Fighting is fighting. The best fighters in the world can be the best fighters in the world. and they don't have a clue about these skills either.
Good luck with your training.

DH
04-01-2007, 12:40 PM
Not to disparage, but just to make an observation, the "Hidden in Plain Sight" part of a lot of this is affected by the fact that there are too many "full cups", not only in Aikido, but many other arts, as well.

It's a waste of time talking to the people with cups that are already full..... but they're the same ones who came to dominate Aikido for too long and who put Aikido in a position where so many are saying "wait a minute.... something must be missing". It's not only Hidden in Plain Sight, it's Ignored When it's in Plain Sight. ;)
Best.

Mike
All good Points Mike I don't think its just Aikido that ran out of gas. its everywhere. I have folks in my dojo who have trained with the parent art of Aikido-DRAJJ. Folks who trained with the best DRAJJ men in the world who will openly tell you most of the guys in that art...just don't get it. I've had people from DRAJJ look at me and say WTF? They couldn't explain me doing their art's waza better than most in their own art. They've recounted failing at aiki-age (peng jin) and being told "More work!" Then I actually use "words" and hands-on and help them to fix it. Not that I do DRAJJ- I don't. And I ain't much!!
If you recall Rob said the same thing when a Sagawa student -who was known- walked in to their class and he had nothing, no structure, and how that could be- when he trained with one of the best in the world. We were just discussing this over dinner last night after a seminar. That perhaps this emptyness is prevelant in all these arts. That and whether or not we were a contributing factor to this downward trend or it originated with teachers unwilling or unable to teach.
My guess is its a combination of all of the above. then again I know several Asian teachers who today, this very day, do not show the majority of students what and how to do the real stuff.
Caveate emptor

ChrisHein
04-01-2007, 02:56 PM
I've never met the man who said that-who had a clue. In fact everyone every, single, one acknowledged they were dealing with something unknown to them.

Dan, what are you talking about here? Every single who? Every one who said internal is natural? Who is the "every, single, one"??

In and of itself-it proves you don't understand internal skills so you relegate them to what you see.

Dan, what are you talking about here? "In and of itself" what? It proves it because of the "every, single, one"? I'm not following your line of logic.

You should go meet someone who instead of saying they got it-actually does.

If ever I've heard a case of, "pot calling the kettle black", this is it. Someone who simply "says they have it", Dan that's your life story. Google your name, then Google one of my teachers. From the results you get who is more likely the one simply "saying they have it"?

You talk an a lot Dan. But who are your teachers? Who are your students? Where is your School? What rank do you have in ANYTHING? What organizations do you belong to. What have you publicly accomplished?

Mike Sigman
04-01-2007, 03:31 PM
You talk an a lot Dan. But who are your teachers? Who are your students? Where is your School? What rank do you have in ANYTHING? What organizations do you belong to. What have you publicly accomplished?"Publicly", Dan has had some Aikido and other teachers... ones who apparently have schools, "rank", and organizations... indicate that Dan has some skills that they haven't encountered/experienced/learned from pretty well-known teachers, etc. So essentially, without getting into personal slashing, it's archived that Dan has *something* that supports what he's posting about so-called "slashing". So he's got it publicly recorded (whether I agree with him or not; whether I personally think much of his personality or not) that he probably has something along those lines.

Who's posting support for your knowledge of jin/kokyu/ki things, Chris, if you don't mind me asking?

When I see all the posters who "already have this stuff", I'm frankly stunned that Ikeda was so blind that he didn't realize the same stuff he's pulled in Ushiro Sensei to teach was already rampant in Aikido. Who knew?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Tim Fong
04-01-2007, 03:46 PM
Chris,

I've never met Dan so I can't comment on his skills from personal knowledge.

On the other hand, I have met and trained with Mike as well as Rob and Akuzawa. And I can say, that what they do is different from what I have seen and felt in judo. You might respond that I haven't seen the real judo. However I have worked out with (read: got my ass kicked by ) some players from one of the top programs in the US.

There are similarities between judo that I've felt, and Aunkai, but at a basic level what Akuzawa is teaching and doing feels fundamentally different.

DH
04-01-2007, 03:53 PM
Chris please stay on point. Were are talking about methods, arts and what you know, not what you teacher knows and how they may relate.
Arguing your natural movement idea -that Baseball and tennis is just as good a vehicle for learning internal skills as CMA or JMA. I wonder why anyone would take up martial arts? Why athletes don't do so well in them?
a. Is it because internal skills don't matter that much?
b. Is it because technique rule the day?
What do you think?

ChrisHein
04-01-2007, 06:14 PM
Chris please stay on point.

You brought up the point that I should train with some people who "You should go meet someone who instead of saying they got it-actually does."

All I am asking is who have you trained under that "actually does".

I'm willing to go so far as to say you spontaneously came up with some spectacular stuff, but then we haven't seen you do anything. Or should I say the vast majority of us haven't seen you do anything. I know there is lots hearsay, about this fellow or that who has seen you, but I don't know any of these people, neither does any one else.

Even your greatest proponent Mike Sigman hasn't met you. At least Mike as written some books, and been editor on this or that thing. When I ask other internal martial artists who Mike is, they know. But you, no one seems to know who you are.

I'm staying on point Dan, the point you brought up.

Arguing your natural movement idea -that Baseball and tennis is just as good a vehicle for learning internal skills as CMA or JMA. I wonder why anyone would take up martial arts?

Many people take up martial arts to learn to protect themselves. For historical reasons. For social activity. There are lots of reasons other then "chi/ki/Qi" development.[/Quote]

[/QUOTE]Why athletes don't do so well in them?
a. Is it because internal skills don't matter that much?
b. Is it because technique rule the day?
What do you think?[/QUOTE]

Most good athletes I've met do very well in the martial arts.

Also you STILL haven't answerd Hafts questions.

Mike Sigman
04-01-2007, 06:31 PM
Even your greatest proponent Mike Sigman hasn't met you. At least Mike as written some books, and been editor on this or that thing. When I ask other internal martial artists who Mike is, they know. But you, no one seems to know who you are. Sorry, but if you'll check past postings, I'm not a proponent of Dan's at all. I keep my distance. I understand generally what he does, based on descriptions from a number of different sources (including some of his own sometimes grandiose ones), and the probability is unavoidable that he does and understands some of what the subject topic is. I.e., he has support for his credentials in this discussion. So far, you don't. I'm interested in hearing some of your descriptions of how things work, other than "Oh yeah, I do that, too".

Knowing that the "Oh yeah" posts would be showing up, I posted something in advance about it some time ago in a post directly discussion "Oh yeahs". The only way to get around the problem that so many people are running into is to simply get into the "how to" conversation and show their knowledge. Nothing else will do it; not even claiming that Dan, Mike, Ushiro, Tohei, Rob, and others are rude for talking about something that some teachers don't seem to know, for some reason. So far I have nine teachers that are committed "Oh Yeahs" until they step up to the pump. Or, to put it another way... it's easy to take a shot at someone's personality, their posting-style, or their personal attributes rather than simply lay it out that someone either knows or doesn't know a subject like ki/kokyu/jin. But it would be a lot better if the subject were discussed rather than diverting the thread to another tawdry personality-focused discussion.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Ecosamurai
04-01-2007, 07:00 PM
Nothing else will do it; not even claiming that Dan, Mike, Ushiro, Tohei, Rob, and others are rude for talking about something that some teachers don't seem to know, for some reason.

For the record, it's not the being rude for talking about things that some teachers don't know that has annoyed me for the last year. It's the fact that all aikido and all aikido teachers are being lumped into the same group of people and painted as teachers of an ineffective art that is diluted/divorced from the teachings of its Founder. It is also the unbelievable grandstanding some people have been doing, I sometimes think that a lot of people involved in this should just do the decent thing and take out an ad for their dojo with Jun. At least he'll get some help running aikiweb that way and we are all using the bandwidth he provides free of charge for what, in some cases, is basically just grandiose self-advertisement (For the sake of avoiding potential unpleasantness note that I am not directing the previous statement to anyone in particular).

Internal skills are IMO the bedrock of aikido, I have always believed this, this is what I have been studying since I started aikido. It is what my teacher has been teaching on a full-time professional basis for 20 years. He isn't the only one either. There is plenty of good aikido out there, it has plenty of internal aspects if you look for it. But, you do need to know what you are looking for before you can find these things. Which is why the debate around here has been useful, all of this confusion could be condensed into a single thread entitled 'how to recognize internal skills when you see them' (You want to start it Mike or shall I? Anyone else?) Such a thread might eliminate the issues that allow these discussions to flourish in all their ugliness.

Regards

Mike

Kevin Leavitt
04-01-2007, 07:23 PM
Just a reminder...if you do want to help Jun out, he has a mechanism on Aikiweb to do so.....then you too can get a shiny yellow star next to your name like me!

MM
04-01-2007, 07:33 PM
I'm willing to go so far as to say you spontaneously came up with some spectacular stuff, but then we haven't seen you do anything. Or should I say the vast majority of us haven't seen you do anything. I know there is lots hearsay, about this fellow or that who has seen you, but I don't know any of these people, neither does any one else.



Well, that's certainly something, I guess. But, hmmm ... when queried, most people know Ron Tisdale. Most people like Ron. Ron's been around the web for quite awhile. Ron met Dan. (I'm sorry to involve you, Ron, but it's a point that needs to be made here.) These people just don't care about us, they'd rather take shots at Dan, Mike, and sometimes Rob. They never get to the heart of the matter, or the important questions.

So, um, how about directing questions to us?

mjchip
04-01-2007, 07:37 PM
Well, that's certainly something, I guess. But, hmmm ... when queried, most people know Ron Tisdale. Most people like Ron. Ron's been around the web for quite awhile. Ron met Dan. (I'm sorry to involve you, Ron, but it's a point that needs to be made here.) These people just don't care about us, they'd rather take shots at Dan, Mike, and sometimes Rob. They never get to the heart of the matter, or the important questions.

So, um, how about directing questions to us?

I'm game......I'll field questions as well.

BTW, great to meet you this weekend and glad you made it back to WVA safely.

Best,

Mark

mjchip
04-01-2007, 07:56 PM
I'm willing to go so far as to say you spontaneously came up with some spectacular stuff, but then we haven't seen you do anything.

1. I can guaran-freakin-tee you it wasn't spontaneous, but IMO it is spectacular.

2. You say "we haven't seen you do anything". Who exactly is we? I've seen and more importantly felt it and he has it. So have a number of folks from all over the country, many of whom even post here or on the other forums. Many of whom have also posted their experiences with him.

Or should I say the vast majority of us haven't seen you do anything. I know there is lots hearsay, about this fellow or that who has seen you, but I don't know any of these people, neither does any one else.

My suggestion is if you are looking for a measure of Dan's skills (or Mike's, or Rob's, etc.) and you are not willing to accept opinions from us folks who have but decades of aikido training, then you go see/feel for yourself. If travelling to him isn't something you are willing to do, then you'll never get the answer you claim to be looking for.

You've heard the story of Ueshiba Sensei going to challenge Takeda Sensei to see if he really had something. I'm told that's how it was done in the old days. Budo men would travel far and wide, issue challenges, and engage in martial combat, in search of [superior] skills to add to their own. The ones who didn't have it sought out the ones who did have it......not the other way around.

Mark

Gernot Hassenpflug
04-01-2007, 08:00 PM
Speaking of the "teachers don't show" point in Asia, there's also the "teachers tell their upper-level students not to tell lower-level students". Which means that if one makes some "friends" in the dojo, and especially as a Westerner is fooled by the smiley faces and joyful atmosphere of the dojo (!), and then asks a question about "how" to do something, the answer is most often "I don't know how I do it", or "just concentrate on (some vague and practically useless thing)". So one can get stumped at just about any corner one wishes to try to get around. I've managed to make some real friends who told me about this, otherwise I might have concluded everyone else is as dumb as me!

Mike Sigman
04-01-2007, 08:21 PM
Speaking of the "teachers don't show" point in Asia, there's also the "teachers tell their upper-level students not to tell lower-level students". Which means that if one makes some "friends" in the dojo, and especially as a Westerner is fooled by the smiley faces and joyful atmosphere of the dojo (!), and then asks a question about "how" to do something, the answer is most often "I don't know how I do it", or "just concentrate on (some vague and practically useless thing)". One of the better ones I've heard about is when someone asks a direct question, they're told, "Eat more rice". What an insult. And I know a number of people on the forum know who I'm talking about.

Best.

Mike

Upyu
04-01-2007, 09:38 PM
All I am asking is who have you trained under that "actually does".


Not that Dan needs defending, but if you do your homework on e-budo or aikiweb you'll figure out who he trained under ;)
You're a smart guy afterall, I'm sure you don't need hand holding :)


I'm willing to go so far as to say you spontaneously came up with some spectacular stuff, but then we haven't seen you do anything.



Or should I say the vast majority of us haven't seen you do anything. I know there is lots hearsay, about this fellow or that who has seen you, but I don't know any of these people, neither does any one else.

Sure that's like talking about your instructor Tim Cartmell over here in Japan ;)
Most BJJers over here would be like..."who dat??? :confused: "
Same thing dude. That doesn't mean that Tim isn't accomplished or skilled, or doesn't have internal skills. Simply means that no one over here has met/heard of him.
The same thing goes for yourself and Dan, Mike or Ark.


Most good athletes I've met do very well in the martial arts.

"Martial Arts" is to vague Chris.
Here's an example:

Wushu performers are excellent athletes, they also practice "martial arts." Does that mean they possess the skills that Mike, Dan or Ark have? (Even the training methods look similar to what we do externally)
Uh. No. And that's pretty cut and dry.
(And that's from experience, having met/felt people, not talking out of my ass)

Mike Sigman
04-01-2007, 09:49 PM
Sure that's like talking about your instructor Tim Cartmell over here in Japan ;)
Most BJJers over here would be like..."who dat??? :confused: "
Same thing dude. That doesn't mean that Tim isn't accomplished or skilled, or doesn't have internal skills. Simply means that no one over here has met/heard of him.
The same thing goes for yourself and Dan, Mike or Ark. Not me, Bub. Ask Michiko, Tomiko, or any of the ko-sisters. They've all heard of me. ;) Wushu performers are excellent athletes, they also practice "martial arts." Does that mean they possess the skills that Mike, Dan or Ark have? (Even the training methods look similar to what we do externally)
Uh. No. And that's pretty cut and dry.
(And that's from experience, having met/felt people, not talking out of my ass)
I know you've met people, Rob, and so have I. There are a lot of clueless people, but there are also a LOT of people that have a clue but don't say much. The Hong Kong Sanda (San Shou Tao) team went to Szechuan Province to show the mainland Chinese team how skilled was Wing Chun and other staples of Hong Kong martial arts. The average bout lasted 13 seconds. Let's be careful about how "unknown" a lot of this information is. ;)

Best.

Mike

Pete Rihaczek
04-01-2007, 09:53 PM
That's a pretty big statement to make...
I've rolled with BJJ blacks over here that've never felt this stuff before. Maybe Pete can chime in on his experiences (who trained with the a4Mbar g0d Rickson Gracie himself back in the day? :) )

Whoops, just saw this. I trained with Rickson for a significant amount of time back in the day, rolled with Royce, Royler, Rorion, Rigan Machado, etc. While I'm dropping names, I've also trained with Dan Inosanto, Paul Vunak, Pendekar Paul DeThouars, and felt the other three DeThouars brothers, Burton Richardson, William Cheung and other Wing Chun people, some scary Thai boxers (there's a reliable style), and lots of other people more obscure in name but not in ability from a variety of styles. Oh yes, and Aikido too. ;) With all those names you'd think I have some ability, but it just goes to show what name dropping is good for. ;) But I've been around and seen quite a bit over the years. When I saw Mike talking about internal stuff I asked some questions, and from written description it didn't sound like anything unusual or different, but I filed it away for reference. Then when the opportunity to see Mike came about, I went and saw for myself. Surprise! Like everybody else, it was different than what I expected, and completely different from any other art or practitioner I'd encountered.

So, this is the norm. You think you know, but there's a very good chance you don't, and anyone who is a card-carrying martial artist without a bias against finding out he hasn't seen it all will go check for himself. There are more than enough experienced straight shooters that have gone to see Mike, Dan, etc. and posted here about it that this shouldn't be a serious issue anymore for anyone who bothers to check the archives.

ChrisHein
04-01-2007, 09:57 PM
Honestly I don't know how I got so wrapped up in all this nonsense. I can see it's fruitless now.

I apologize to Howard Chan.

Haowen Chan
04-01-2007, 10:08 PM
all of this confusion could be condensed into a single thread entitled 'how to recognize internal skills when you see them'

There are lots of common phenomena-based tests I've found while reading on this on the interwebs.

I like the list posted by Mark Murray in the "internal power" thread:

1. Have someone push your chest with one hand in an attempt to push you over. Really push.
2. Then two hands as hard as he can. We're talking total 100% full force of whole body pushing you.
3. Then have him pile drive into you.
4. Then even casually.. increasing to severely- pull you and push you around while you stand there without moving your feet. Let them have your wrist and let them pull you for all their worth.
5. Place your hand on his chest. Without moving your shoulders or body in any discernable way, send them 3-6' with your hand.

I grabbed this from a Kokikai site, referring to Shuji Maruyama sensei

"You push on Sensei, and it feels like pushing against a huge boulder covered with foam rubber - soft, yet immovable."

I remember reading a post where someone described pushing on Mike Sigman as "pouring energy into a hole": I believe much the same type of feeling as the above, since Mike describes it as "redirecting the pushing force into the ground".

And of course we have the well-known Ki-society ki-tests.

It's quite easy to understand the commonalities even if one is not a practitioner - I knew nothing about ki (beyond my own old misconceptions about some kind of mystical "life force") before reading about this stuff for a few weeks.

Physiologically I believe the nutshell consensus from those who have tried to explain it plainly is, "ki/kokyu/jin" is a form of body sensitivity and coordination that allows accurate, efficient force redirection through the whole human body.

I believe the bigger problem that the high-level sensei are trying to get at is how to teach this incredibly unintuitive skill more effectively. That's a tough problem for far, far wiser heads than mine.

Upyu
04-01-2007, 11:41 PM
Not me, Bub. Ask Michiko, Tomiko, or any of the ko-sisters. They've all heard of me. ;)
I know you've met people, Rob, and so have I. There are a lot of clueless people, but there are also a LOT of people that have a clue but don't say much. The Hong Kong Sanda (San Shou Tao) team went to Szechuan Province to show the mainland Chinese team how skilled was Wing Chun and other staples of Hong Kong martial arts. The average bout lasted 13 seconds. Let's be careful about how "unknown" a lot of this information is. ;)

Best.

Mike
Hey hey hey, I meant the Wushu Taolu guys...Sanda team would be a tooootally different story, I'd be the first to admit that :D

Pete Rihaczek
04-02-2007, 12:39 AM
Honestly I don't know how I got so wrapped up in all this nonsense. I can see it's fruitless now.

I apologize to Howard Chan.

Hi Chris,

Actually, having just read the rest of this thread, I agree. Your definition of internal is not the same as Mike's, I can promise you that. This stuff is more complicated and unusual than you think. I've trained with some of the best BJJ'ers on the planet, and they simply don't have it to any meaningful degree, and nobody would who doesn't pursue it deliberately. Someone like Rickson doesn't *need* it to be great obviously, which is important to underscore because no one is saying you can't be a great fighter/athlete/artist without it, but even the best don't get any of this just as some freebie that comes along with their other practice. You are, of course, as free to ignore that as anyone else is, and it probably won't impact your life much to do so.

Josh Reyer
04-02-2007, 01:29 AM
Hi Chris,
Someone like Rickson doesn't *need* it to be great obviously,
Damn. There goes one pet theory I had. I remember a few years ago, when Rickson came to Japan to wrestle Nobuhiko Takada, seeing a TV special that showed clips of Rickson working out. He was shown doing some very odd-looking body movements and breath exercises, and lately I've been pondering the possibility that he got some internal training from somewhere and used it to supplement his GJJ, and that was why he was so unbeatable. Some of the statements made by Japanese guys who'd competed against him also seemed to lead in this direction. I can't recall anything specific, but stuff to the effect that he was simply unmovable when he got the mount, and that he felt different from other guys. But if you've felt him and say he didn't have it, well...crap. :)

Gernot Hassenpflug
04-02-2007, 02:24 AM
Rob made a great point a few posts back about many people using one or more "components" of internal strength, any of which are useful in their own right. But training a specific skill set in accordance with internal principles is a whole different ballgame.

Upyu
04-02-2007, 02:30 AM
Damn. There goes one pet theory I had. I remember a few years ago, when Rickson came to Japan to wrestle Nobuhiko Takada, seeing a TV special that showed clips of Rickson working out. He was shown doing some very odd-looking body movements and breath exercises, and lately I've been pondering the possibility that he got some internal training from somewhere and used it to supplement his GJJ, and that was why he was so unbeatable. Some of the statements made by Japanese guys who'd competed against him also seemed to lead in this direction. I can't recall anything specific, but stuff to the effect that he was simply unmovable when he got the mount, and that he felt different from other guys. But if you've felt him and say he didn't have it, well...crap. :)

Heh, you don't need to have all the skills that've been talked about on this forum to be able to be "unmovable" from the mount. So it wouldn't surprise me if Rickson had some different components tied up nicely in his own way.
There is a HUGE disparity in BJJ guys though. Guys that get tech oriented, and ones that rely more on their structure/postural balance to do simple techs. The manipulation of their internal skills is pretty limited to keeping balance..then again most of the time, what more do you need within that ruleset? (Create space, get position, have base, crank it the #$"k on :D )

Kevin Leavitt
04-02-2007, 02:59 AM
Wow, months of discussion and trying to understand and NOW several of you guys admit that it is possible that top notch BJJ guys may have "components" of internal skill!

I have been arguing this point all along! jeesh!

It would make sense that they would figure out how to be effective and efficient in this way.

could it be that these guys like Rickson have found a balance between what works?

Could it be that guys like Mike and Rob etc...have basically isolated and refined methodologies for teaching these things, yet maybe most of them cannot bridge the gap to demonstrating incorporating these skills in a much more alive environment?

Not trying to insult you guys at all...contrary...

To me it would be like a PhD that specializes in a particular focus, yet has not figured out how to implement it into a sustainable, money making practice in the real world yet.

We need both for sure in order to grow as a martial society.

Upyu
04-02-2007, 03:05 AM
Wow, months of discussion and trying to understand and NOW several of you guys admit that it is possible that top notch BJJ guys may have "components" of internal skill!

Lol, dude before you get your panties in a bind, I say "components", but that doesn't say all that much. Sure they have components... but that doesn't make the skill. We all have the components (we got two arms, two legs, a head, and some of us have half a brain), but its the skill and the "way" its developed that defines the stuff being talked about. Ultimately the musculature, the "components" themselves change physiologically in a very large way. ;)
And that's definitely something the BJJ guys never get (ever see a guy with a musculature resembling the AUN statues? ;) )

KIT
04-02-2007, 03:08 AM
Could it be that guys like Mike and Rob etc...have basically isolated and refined methodologies for teaching these things, yet maybe most of them cannot bridge the gap to demonstrating incorporating these skills in a much more alive environment?



I should say that at lest Rob puts his stuff on the line - outside of aikidoka and taiji practitioners.

Rob, you know I love ya, but I know you aren't falling back on that tired old "rules" argument, brotha. Let's not have to fight "no rules" next time you are out. After getting eye gouged by that Systemite to so little effect, I'm gettin' too old for that kinda stuff.

:p

KIT
04-02-2007, 03:10 AM
Lol, dude before you get your panties in a bind, I say "components", but that doesn't say all that much. Sure they have components... but that doesn't make the skill. We all have the components (we got two arms, two legs, a head, and some of us have half a brain), but its the skill and the "way" its developed that defines the stuff being talked about. Ultimately the musculature, the "components" themselves change physiologically in a very large way. ;)
And that's definitely something the BJJ guys never get (ever see a guy with a musculature resembling the AUN statues? ;) )

And you and I both know has very little to do with practical application. The two are complementary, just as being able to bench press 400 lbs is complementary to practical fighting skill - IF you have the skillset to go with it.

Upyu
04-02-2007, 03:24 AM
And you and I both know has very little to do with practical application. The two are complementary, just as being able to bench press 400 lbs is complementary to practical fighting skill - IF you have the skillset to go with it.

Yup, mos def :)
No argument from me there :D

Ecosamurai
04-02-2007, 07:56 AM
There are lots of common phenomena-based tests I've found while reading on this on the interwebs.

Actually the ones you cited are more like descriptions of how to 'test' for it. Not how to 'see' it which was what I was referring to, though I may not have made that clear.

Mike

statisticool
04-02-2007, 08:28 AM
It's getting to look rather desperate on the detractors side.


It is hard to not be skeptical when the claimaints tell us about superior skills, yet aren't winning MMA tournaments (say UFC) using their amazing internal skills (that we can distinguish from regular ol brute force external skills).

Use your brain people. If someone is claiming that no matter what they cannot be pushed over, shouldn't they enter a sumo tournament, a taijiquan push hands tournament, and be the perpetual winner for the rest of their life?

Seeing tournament results would be infinitely more effective than spending $ and time to just see static demos with 'play nice' rules and dozens of parameters (which if varied, the trick probably wouldn't work), to assess martial efficiency, don't you think?

The Hardens and Sigmans of the world wouldn't touch that route with a 10 foot pole, however. Else they'd have done it by now to shut up all the "detractors" (ie. people who are skeptical of their claims).

Justin

Cady Goldfield
04-02-2007, 08:37 AM
Why would one equate participation in commercial sport competitions with legitimacy as a martial artist?

Right now, people are sharing skills with others in seminars on a small scale. Those recipients are coming back to these forums and reporting their experiences. There is no televising, and money isn't changing hands. Just hard work and sharing, and the experiencing of genuine skills first-hand.

If you really wanted to know the truth about what is being discussed here, why wouldn't you simply participate in one of those seminars, or ask to train? You could buy a ringside seat to a UFC bout (which has little or no relation to what is being discussed here), but no one would be teaching you any skills.

Pete Rihaczek
04-02-2007, 09:06 AM
Wow, months of discussion and trying to understand and NOW several of you guys admit that it is possible that top notch BJJ guys may have "components" of internal skill!

I have been arguing this point all along! jeesh!

It would make sense that they would figure out how to be effective and efficient in this way.

could it be that these guys like Rickson have found a balance between what works?

Could it be that guys like Mike and Rob etc...have basically isolated and refined methodologies for teaching these things, yet maybe most of them cannot bridge the gap to demonstrating incorporating these skills in a much more alive environment?

Not trying to insult you guys at all...contrary...

To me it would be like a PhD that specializes in a particular focus, yet has not figured out how to implement it into a sustainable, money making practice in the real world yet.

We need both for sure in order to grow as a martial society.

Hi Kevin,

I wouldn't get too excited, I don't know that saying "internal components" is really meaningful. The definition of internal is very difficult. For example, I downloaded an ancient clip of Rickson giving a seminar, and he was explaining the importance of being relaxed by having someone stand in base and pushing on him, showing that he was harder to move and topple if he relaxed instead of fighting it. In other words he was showing basic rooting. This is something you can figure out on your own if you have as much practice as he does, or it could have been passed along from Helio as a fundamental, but either way you could say that's a "component", but I don't think it means anything. In his case relaxation is emphasized so as not to rely on strength, which is a fundamental philosophy of BJJ. It's also a practical training matter that relying on strength hinders learning technique, and it's a difficult matter for big guys to overcome. As Rorion used to say, being strong and not relying on your strength is like having a million dollars in the bank and not writing any checks. ;)

But again, I personally think "internal components" is totally meaningless because you don't have internal movement until you extend certain concepts deliberately to their furthest logical conclusion, and most people are completely unaware of just how far these concepts can be taken. The movement of someone like a Chen Xiao Wang is completely unnatural and nothing anyone would ever get without years of dedicated practice at not doing anything that feels "natural".

As to your "alive environment" comment, I've seen that addressed here repeatedly. Static demonstrations are to easily show what is going on, nothing else. If it were just used on you in an "alive" way, you'd have no clue what happened. Of course the point is alive usage, it's about things that should be part of a great many martial arts. Being able to drive all motion this way takes a lot of dedicated practice exactly because it's totally unnatural, and it's easy to revert to "natural" movement under pressure. That's why people who know about this stuff can instantly spot that someone is talking about something else when they start saying it's natural, athletes naturally have it, it comes along with a lot of regular practice, etc. No way. It is much harder to learn than anything "natural", and it's compounded by the fact that the people who really know how to do it don't really teach it, they keep a pretty tight lid on it. One of the big benefits of being shown any of this directly is that you can then gain a lot more from the masters because you can understand more of what they're doing vs what they're saying, if they say anything at all. I saw a seminar report from someone regarding a master who would be known to Aikiweb members whose name I will not mention, someone who has a level of this skill. Said attendee trained with this master for a week long seminar, and while the master demonstrated all manner of things, he never once explained how to do anything. So people just made copies of what he did, empty of any real substance. This person, however, had visited Mike, and so knew what to look for, and was able to take away a lot of information that passed by everyone else. This is the sort of path you have to take to sneak in the door, and without some level of this being openly shown it's a 1000 times harder and practically impossible. Trust me, even being shown anything statically is gold, and any expectation that you can easily use this stuff in an "alive" environment without relearning what you do "naturally" is a non-starter. If you're looking for something that can be learned in a week, take up knitting or something. ;)

Ecosamurai
04-02-2007, 09:08 AM
Why would one equate participation in commercial sport competitions with legitimacy as a martial artist?

Right now, people are sharing skills with others in seminars on a small scale. Those recipients are coming back to these forums and reporting their experiences. There is no televising, and money isn't changing hands. Just hard work and sharing, and the experiencing of genuine skills first-hand.

If you really wanted to know the truth about what is being discussed here, why wouldn't you simply participate in one of those seminars, or ask to train? You could buy a ringside seat to a UFC bout (which has little or no relation to what is being discussed here), but no one would be teaching you any skills.

I think cady is quite right, but. Whilst I don't necessarily agree with Justin's idea that people need to go to competitions to 'prove' themselves. He does raise a valid point about all of this stuff. Namely, that stating things along the lines of 'a 400lb baby-eating monster of a man can't push me over' is a little bit of a misdirection of the facts. His size and weight are irrelevant if his pushing technique is poor. Makes me want to ask if such internal skills come with tights and a cape.

The reality of the situation in which someone pushes on your chest like that is usually far different than how it might sound. I know that I personally can have a 260lb man push on my chest and he will acheive nothing. Just like the above described 'void'. However, if the same guy took a good hard run up to me and/or gave me a good hard shove I may need to take a step or two or alter my foot position in order to absorb the force sufficiently. Does this mean I don't have these skills? No. Just means that I'm quite honest enough to admit I'm not superman, and I have much more to learn. When you know how to push and 'move with ki' then you can make yourself into kryptonite if you need to.

I had a guy come visit us, he was really strong and coordinated (he'd done some ki aikido before), he was powerful enough and skilled enough that if anyone else on the mat tried to he could stop their movement quite easily. Anyone except me that is and I too had trouble moving him. But I could do it. Reminds me of Koichi Tohei's account of his training misogi and becoming so tired that at aikido practice he was so completely relaxed that eventually nobody in the dojo could move him, nobody that is except for the founder. There are levels to these things and people who may appear unmovable often only appear so when they control the situation in which they display such abilities. Nobody is totally 'immovable', if they were bulldozers would bounce off them. Yet the way people sometimes describe these things makes it sound as though the bulldozer would come off worse in an argument.

Regards

Mike

DH
04-02-2007, 09:12 AM
Justin
I can't figure out if your baiting, dumb, or you just can't read.
Did you miss
All the posts about ex Navy Boxers, MMA, With BJJ, Judo, collegiate wresttlers, as well as guys who were canditating for UFC.etc.
Did you miss
Rob's posts about messing with shoot fighters, Judo guys pride qualifiers and BJJers.
Did you miss
The comments about "static testing" for training only but that it isn't the real skills?
Did you miss
The men training being shown why they are doing things and where it comes into play in movement and fighting. Why? Because they were shown with me moving and them trying to "actively" throw me or hit me.

No, I don't think you missed it. I think you are ignoring it. Since you ignore that and keep throwing out these one liners -I have reduced your behaviour to the Aikiwebb troll.
There are about a dozen guys here you could question in detail, and get answers directly (as they didn't believe it either till they felt it) then you can challenge their judgement as well-all from the safety of your keyboard.
Why is that you and others like you never approach them? You'd have few choices.
1.Why not ask them about moving and throwing in an active environment since you seem to be so curous to kerep bringing it up.
2. Why not ask them about trying to hit me boxing style and what it felt like to try?
3. Ask them what it feels like to go for a single or double leg shoot?
4. Aske them how effective any attempt at entering was
Ask Justin
Ask
They are right here.........

You would have to call them all collectively: liars, fools, men unable to judge, or insult them by calling them "Acolytes" like one fellow here did.
There's no where to go with that line of logic, and you won't dare show up in person.
The people here asked- I opened the door to folks from here. The response has been both consistent and positive. The credibility has been answered.
I think your real issues are transparent. You are intellectually disshonest. The information is there and you ignore it to troll.
I think the people here took your suggestion.
They did "use their brains."
Perhaps you should take your own advice.

DonMagee
04-02-2007, 10:22 AM
Just a thought. I know a few guys who went to a multi-martial art seminar with a guy who did combat ki. If you do not know what this is, basically he takes shots in the nuts, throat, body, legs, etc without any noticeable injury. He had tons of people come up and hit him, my friends included. Also at this seminar was a bjj instructor. After the combat ki guy did his thing, it was now the bjj instructor's turn. He did his thing and asked if anyone would like to spar to feel how bjj feels in an alive context. The combat ki guy answered. Now for this part I have to describe the combat ki guy. He was a large man of about 200+ at least who looked menancing. He was paired up with a guy we call the shark, who is about 5'8" or 5'9" and fights at 145 pounds. The shark tapped him out quickly in a few seconds with a knee on belly (Btw, this is not a submission, but a position used to setup submissions).

So in essence, we have a man, who is considered very good at his art in mid/upper dan levels, unable to perform the same feats he was able to do in a controlled environment in side an uncontrolled environment. This is similar to what my aikido instructor told me about these guys. That they are vulnerable once you move them, because they never train to perform their skills while moving. For him (my aikido instructor) its not about being able to demo an unbendable arm, its about having an unbendable arm in everything you do, even if he just walks up behind you while your getting a drink and tries to snatch up your arm.

So for me, it is cool to see a demo that some guy can do something like this, but until I get to spar one of them, I can't see how it will help me at all. What is going to make me better, spending less time training basic martial technique to hopefully be able to have internal strength in 20 years, or spend more time working my basic fundamental techniques and gain measurable martial skill with results I can quickly measure, do not require hunting to the ends of the earth for a teacher who can explain, and have an easy means of testing in semi realistic combat?

Mike Sigman
04-02-2007, 10:34 AM
So for me, it is cool to see a demo that some guy can do something like this, but until I get to spar one of them, I can't see how it will help me at all. Yeah, but Don, you're highlighting one of the continuing problems with these discussions... people just don't understand the subject, so they make comments that, well, show that they don't understand the topic. ;)

The "Combat Ki" guys I used to see on Okinawa sometimes years ago. What happened was that some guy got hold of some very limited aspects of the pressure-conditioning that is common in some of the southern Shaolin arts. The kokyu stuff Dan, Ushiro, Abe, etc., is talking about is the jin-related stuff. The pressure-stuff is an offshoot of the breathing practices. Essentially it builds up pressure and fascial conditioning, but often in an extreme way (like I said, there are variants and wild permutations of this stuff because it's a big topic). The combat-ki guys that I've seen lately tend to be somewhat lardy guys that can take blows to the body, but their actual fighting skills are low; their knowledge of the kokyu/ki stuff is zip.

And BTW.... a large percentage of those guys have hemorrhoids and are stroke-prone from the silly way they use pressure. There's nothing as dangerous as a *little* knowledge.

FWIW

Mike

Gernot Hassenpflug
04-02-2007, 10:47 AM
Nice story Don. Mike Sigman and others have pointed out that the internal body movement needs to be "burned in", it is not and add-on skill. Thus, by definition, as you say the unbendable arm will be in everything you do. Since there is a mechanical basis to the internal skills -- they are not magic -- it is fairly easy for practioners to put them to use once they know exactly how they work. It is not as though one needs to "set up" some conditions, at a basic level this is the by-now natural mode of movement and coordination (at a given level of skill and self-knowledge), i.e. the mechanical leverage-based method of moving the body parts.

Edit: Mike beat me to it! So the "burning it" part here is a lot about use of jin, body alignments, rather than pressure useage.

Kevin Leavitt
04-02-2007, 01:54 PM
Thanks for the post guys...interesting stuff. Don, as usual, you explain the filters and priorities that I too put weight on, which makes this difficult for me to take in, as I too follow the same basic thought process as you on this. It has to be demonstrated in a way that is somewhat usuable.

Frankly I get confused as to the what the focus of all this is. Seems like we go through a pattern here. Proponents (those that have jumped on the bandwagon creep slowly to the fact that this is very useful...then those that say, "then why don't we see this in UFC, or in an aliveness environment ..then there is shift in definition, or a failure to define parameters...and then I am left scratching my head trying to figure out how to frame this once again.

The weight lifting thread kinda bugged me, but I refrained as I had not much positive to add. My thoughts were if weight lifing, defined core strength development, is not important, then why can I pretty much predict who will win a fight based on physical appearance 80% of the time? Also, we are we not seeing these mushy soft guys in UFC. I sort of see Justin's point, but in a slightly different way.

So, I remain confused as to the value this training might have.

That said, I will refrain from being negative until I get involved with these guys and work through my issues on my own account. I do think they have warranted enough respect and demonstrated ability through reputation to warrant spending time with...that should be enough for anyone that is genuinely interested at improving or getting better.

I will admit in my years of experience that EVERYONE that I have ever ended up studying with I was wrong about in my initial assessment. I avoided BJJ for years based on my own ignorance, and avoided other things as well...so I must assume that this too will be very useful based on my history of being wrong in this area!

I think the conversations are good here, and I think this is worthwile, I simply think that many are putting too much faith or time into learning these things...when there are other things that are very fundamental to being a good martial artist...if that is your goal.

I use the same logic with body builders. I can't understand why someone would spend all there time developing their body only for the sake of developing their body. too me weight lifting is a tool to condition you to do other things. I view these skills in the same boat...they must be additive to your practice and not what your practice has become simply for the sake of learning them...but to eaches own

...just don't call yourself a MMA guy or say that these things are useful in MMA if you can't demonstrate it.

Again, good discussion.

statisticool
04-02-2007, 02:11 PM
Did you miss
All the posts about ex Navy Boxers, MMA, With BJJ, Judo, collegiate wresttlers, as well as guys who were canditating for UFC.etc.
Did you miss
Rob's posts about messing with shoot fighters, Judo guys pride qualifiers and BJJers.


No, I read all those nice words and stuff, but the public at large has yet to see such internal gurus demonstrating their superior unmovable skills (and other skills they perfect in static demonstrations with play nice rules and parameters) in competitions.

I (don't really) wonder why that is.


Did you miss
The men training being shown why they are doing things and where it comes into play in movement and fighting. Why? Because they were shown with me moving and them trying to "actively" throw me or hit me.


Where is the video of them "being shown"?


You would have to call them all collectively: liars, fools, men unable to judge, or insult them by calling them "Acolytes" like one fellow here did.


I disagree with your set of choices. It could simple be regular ol external stuff and they could be waxing romantic about it, and/or not remembering the parameters correctly.

In fact, without having a video, it is quite difficult to remember with 100% accuracy, even for experts such as yourself.

Sincerely,

Justin

Mike Sigman
04-02-2007, 02:20 PM
No, I read all those nice words and stuff, but the public at large has yet to see such internal gurus demonstrating their superior unmovable skills (and other skills they perfect in static demonstrations with play nice rules and parameters) in competitions.

I (don't really) wonder why that is.Where is a video of YOU doing anything, Justin? Other than constant negative posts, you contribute absolutely nothing but vitriol (oh, yes, I know you deliberately try to slip in a few 2-liner posts rarely so that you can argue to Jun that you do more than than, but it's a sham). Who has seen you do anything that your opinion is worth 2 cents? Who's your teacher? Have you ever studied Aikido? You've never even studied Taiji. Who was your teacher in Taiji? If he didn't teach you jin and qi skills, which from your posts he/she didn't, then he didn't teach you Taiji. Name your teacher. If you want to disparage people, put yourself on the line, too.

Mike Sigman

Kevin Leavitt
04-02-2007, 02:47 PM
Mike does have a good point, if you yourself are not willing to swap sweat with anyone here...hence no one here has anything to offer you, then what dog do you have in this fight so to speak.

No one has any reason to prove anything to someone that is not willing to put themselves out there as well.

Justin, do you have a video of your skills in anything to share with us?

George S. Ledyard
04-02-2007, 02:50 PM
Mike does have a good point, if you yourself are not willing to swap sweat with anyone here...hence no one here has anything to offer you, then what dog do you have in this fight so to speak.

No one has any reason to prove anything to someone that is not willing to put themselves out there as well.

Justin, do you have a video of your skills in anything to share with us?

Guys,
Might I remind folks that Jun has judiciously provided us with a wonderful device called the "ignore button". I find it is REALLY helpful when I find folks who are getting my knickers all in a twist.
- George

DonMagee
04-02-2007, 02:58 PM
There are videos on the web of me getting my butt kicked. They are fairly old though. I'll see if I can get some new video's up as soon as I find more willing participants to kick my butt.

Kevin Leavitt
04-02-2007, 03:03 PM
told twice in one day not to get my knickers in a twist! what are you guys trying to tell me? :)

Your starting to give me a complex!

Josh Reyer
04-02-2007, 03:10 PM
Frankly I get confused as to the what the focus of all this is. Seems like we go through a pattern here. Proponents (those that have jumped on the bandwagon creep slowly to the fact that this is very useful...then those that say, "then why don't we see this in UFC, or in an aliveness environment ..then there is shift in definition, or a failure to define parameters...and then I am left scratching my head trying to figure out how to frame this once again.
Kevin, let us assume for the moment that everything the "proponents" here have said is true. Well, actually I do believe that, but as you're still on the fence, I'd ask you to just assume the conceit.

So, if we assume that, we have aikido. An art devoted, ostensibly, according to all three Doshus and Tohei, to developing "Ki" and "kokyu-ryoku". And yet these skills are rare in aikido, and not getting disseminated to everyone. We have Daito-ryu, aikido's parent art, which is ostensibly devoted to developing these "Aiki" skills. And yet, again, they are not widespread, and even those who have trained at its most notable dojo (Sagawa Dojo) have been seen to not have it. We have taiji, another art that perhaps more than any other is devoted to developing these skills. And yet again, these skills are rare in that art.

By all accounts, those who historically have mastered these arts have been secretive and reticent to teach them to the masses, particularly to westerners. So in such conditions, where even many who practice the very arts meant to develop these skills go off on the wrong track, or ignore the potential all together, would you really expect to see this in the UFC or Pride? If the "proponents" here have to convince the believers, as it were, why would the typical MMA'ist even give it a go, when there are more concrete, tangible things they can work on?

These skills are just starting to really get taught and disseminated. More dojos are opening up, more dojos are seeking this knowledge. 20 years ago, if you had this knowledge, you couldn't talk to people on the internet about it, and even if you did the audience at the time was microcosmic. Hell, even now all the participants of AikiWeb, Aikido Journal, and E-Budo represent a fraction of those practicing.

So, I remain confused as to the value this training might have.
And I'm stunned that you can say that. Even setting aside doubts on whether Mike, Dan, Akuzawa, et. al can actually do what they say, if you entertain for the moment the idea that these skills exist, how can you not see the value? A strength that will not deteriorate so greatly with age? A relaxed strength that allows for more fluidity of movement? More powerful strikes and pins? The ability to physiologically and psychologically disorient an opponent? And let's go further and suggest that maybe the "proponents" here can do some stock demonstrations, but can do jack-shit (pardon the language) when it comes to an live environment. Wouldn't it be worth it to learn the skills to try and make them work for you in a live environment?

...just don't call yourself a MMA guy or say that these things are useful in MMA if you can't demonstrate it.
And then this I really can't understand. Two major proponents of these skills, Dan and Rob, all they talk about rolling, sparring, striking, kicking. That's what they do. People get on their case for not being aikido! When I met Rob, he had me try to do one kotegaeshi on him, and then everything else was in a MMA paradigm. I held a bag while he and another Ark student kicked it and punched it to show the difference in striking. He had me mount him, get him in holds and chokes, and then showed how he could get out of them. On one hand, this was not particularly impressive, since I'm not a MMA'ist, and probably any six-month BJJ'er could easily do the same. But it shows you how he approaches this stuff and how he demonstrates it. The videos he puts up are of two things: conditioning exercises, and alive training. Have you seen the Aunkai (http://www.aunkai.net/eng/) website (newly redesigned)? How can you look at that and say it's not MMA?

Dan, his whole thing in demonstrations has been "do what you want." Try punching, pushing, tackling. Get him in any kind of lock you want. These guys aren't doing Ueshiba type tricks here. In any thread regarding competition, alive training, sparring, and the like in aikido, they are going to be on your side. All I can say is I'm halfway across the world here in Japan, trying to resolve issues in my own training, and every time I log onto AikiWeb I'm hoping to see a "Kevin Leavitt meets Dan Harden (or Akuzawa)" thread, because more than just about anybody else here I have the distinct feeling that you would really mesh with these guys, and come out of such an experience invigorated and excited about your training.

MM
04-02-2007, 03:15 PM
To Don and Kevin.

Don't take this sarcastically because I'm serious. If you don't find anything useful here, why are you posting? It's been said that you can't see this stuff from a video. It's also been said that this stuff has been shown in a dynamic environment and it works. And it's been said that you have to feel this stuff. So, if you're confused and can't see how it'll be helpful, why keep posting? Because you'll just get the same answers again (see my first few sentences).

How about changing your questions? Why not direct your questions to the people who have felt it? Or some derivation?

Thanks,
Mark

DonMagee
04-02-2007, 03:40 PM
My point of posting was to do two things.

1) Point out why I believe what I do and state my current thoughts on this.
2) Reinforce the comments that some people are show me people outside of demonstration. I do not want a video. I want someone to train with me in a MMA context. Prove it works, and that it can be aquired in a way just as efficent as martial technique.

See, it doesn't' matter if it works. Even assuming that it works we then have to ask, its it feasible. From what I've read here I have doubts to if the training is as efficient as my current training and worth sacrificing my current training to build this skill.

So for questions.

I have 8 hours a week to train for upcoming NAGA. Providing I have an instructor with the real internal skills. How many hours should be devoted to bjj, and how many to building internal strength. Now how do I hook these together into something actually usable?

It seems to me that my time is better spent drilling passes, escapes, and submissions, then sparing. Every hour I work on rooting is an hour I could be throwing resisting opponents and fixing flaws in my technique.

I used to train bjj 2 days a week, and aikido 3 days a week. Most of my aikido class supposedly focused on building ki. In fact I'd say 90% of the class is ki exercises. I've seen very cool things out of the brown belts and the instructors, however over the course of 2 years I have not found tangible benefit to ki training to help my fighting ability.

This is not to say it is worthless, but until I am proven otherwise, I have to conclude based on experience that my time more efficiently spent perfecting my technique in alive drills.

Kevin Leavitt
04-02-2007, 03:45 PM
Thanks for the encouragement Josh.

As I said, I have my own criteria, as selfish and personal as it maybe, so admittidly that is what I am using to try and understand this. I am not trying to be judgemental or negative, only trying to understand it based on that criteria. My criteria is mine. I don't mean to invalidate or say Mike or anyone is wrong because they have there own, and that is fine! (Just wanted to clarify this is where I am coming from).

I do not mean to imply that I see no value in it. I am saying I don't understand the value in it. A big difference from others I believe that are seeking to say this is crap or something along those lines. There is a difference between seeking to understand vice seeking to discredit.

I had the same problem with my aikido practice for many years and frankly that is the question I ask everyday I train...what is the value of what I am doing?

I don't know enough about the Aunkai website or akuwaza to comment on it, although it does seem very impressive.

Obviously I see value in this type of training as I continue to study Aikido, and certainly anything that improves my ability to understand body movement and kinetics as it relates to Martial arts is worthwhile.

again, it is a question of realitive value, not of total value!

I'd say that someone that has designed/codified a program of study that provides a methodology for core practices with aliveness training would be on the right track, and it would keep me from having to study both aikido and BJJ.

Josh wrote:

And then this I really can't understand. Two major proponents of these skills, Dan and Rob, all they talk about rolling, sparring, striking, kicking. That's what they do. People get on their case for not being aikido! When I met Rob, he try to do one kotegaeshi on him, and then everything else was in a MMA paradigm. I held a bag while he and another Ark student kicked it and punched it to show the difference in striking. He had me mount him, get him in holds and chokes, and then showed how he could get out of them. On one hand, this was not particularly impressive, since I'm not a MMA'ist, and probably any six-month BJJ'er could easily do the same. But it shows you how he approaches this stuff and how he demonstrates it

Your above experience is why I get confused and discerning/critical when viewing this and the claims many are making concerning the value.

It means a great deal more to me when someone like Pete comes on here and says "I have walked the walk and these are my experiences with this." No disrespect intended to pure aikidoka or self defined internist here, but when claims about concerning the benefit these skills have are made here, I want take my advice from those that train in the fashion that the claims are being made to...that is all. Simply saying...be honest about what you are saying. That is all.

If it is an intellectual pursuit for you..fine..then say that.

Josh wrote:

Dan, his whole thing in demonstrations has been "do what you want." Try punching, pushing, tackling. Get him in any kind of lock you want. These guys aren't doing Ueshiba type tricks here. In any thread regarding competition, alive training, sparring, and the like in aikido, they are going to be on your side. All I can say is I'm halfway across the world here in Japan, trying to resolve issues in my own training, and every time I log onto AikiWeb I'm hoping to see a "Kevin Leavitt meets Dan Harden (or Akuzawa)" thread, because more than just about anybody else here I have the distinct feeling that you would really mesh with these guys, and come out of such an experience invigorated and excited about your training.

All I have ever asked for is pretty much defining this criteria as you state above and I have no issue and will then go and train. It is as simple as that, and then we will all be great friends as you state having shared a common bond and community of practice!

So, if what you say is true...then I have no real issues with it.

Everything that I have seen though has pretty much centered around static practices, and core foundational training...which is very, very important, and frankly where the conversation should be focused.

I just simply get my panties in a bunch as Rob said, when we step outside of those boundaries and then contradict things that were said much earlier months ago.

I am simply trying to understand from my perspective and put it in the right framework. One day I here...no BJJ guys don't get it. Then I hear..well the have components of it, where it is useful to them. Which is what I said months ago! It confuses my simple mind that is trying to only learn and sort through information! :)

Again, I don't do aikido for the sake of doing aikido any more than I lift weights to be a body builder. I don't do BJJ for the sake of doing BJJ....but this is me, and the criteia only applies to me.

Thanks again!

MM
04-02-2007, 04:08 PM
My point of posting was to do two things.

1) Point out why I believe what I do and state my current thoughts on this.
2) Reinforce the comments that some people are show me people outside of demonstration. I do not want a video. I want someone to train with me in a MMA context. Prove it works, and that it can be aquired in a way just as efficent as martial technique.

See, it doesn't' matter if it works. Even assuming that it works we then have to ask, its it feasible. From what I've read here I have doubts to if the training is as efficient as my current training and worth sacrificing my current training to build this skill.

So for questions.

I have 8 hours a week to train for upcoming NAGA. Providing I have an instructor with the real internal skills. How many hours should be devoted to bjj, and how many to building internal strength. Now how do I hook these together into something actually usable?

It seems to me that my time is better spent drilling passes, escapes, and submissions, then sparing. Every hour I work on rooting is an hour I could be throwing resisting opponents and fixing flaws in my technique.

I used to train bjj 2 days a week, and aikido 3 days a week. Most of my aikido class supposedly focused on building ki. In fact I'd say 90% of the class is ki exercises. I've seen very cool things out of the brown belts and the instructors, however over the course of 2 years I have not found tangible benefit to ki training to help my fighting ability.

This is not to say it is worthless, but until I am proven otherwise, I have to conclude based on experience that my time more efficiently spent perfecting my technique in alive drills.

Hi Don,

As for #2, my answer is it works. Even though I don't do MMA, I can definitely see applications to using it in an MMA environment. Let me take a stab at this. If I'm "grappling" with someone and I can take their force and ground it such that it throws them off balance, then I can take advantage of their off balance to fit whatever lock or strike I want. If someone gets an armbar on me and I can negate effectively negate that, then it gives me a lot of options I wouldn't normally have with just technique.

Feasible and efficient? Hmmm ... I don't do MMA, Don, and I don't know your current training. But, for me, it's very feasible to Aikido and actually would help make it more efficient.

Training ... I can see how that would influence someone. Especially if you're doing several martial arts. There's only so many hours in a day. For me, it's worth the time spent in internal training. But, then again, I got to experience it. If you get a chance, take it. It'll open your eyes to a whole nother level to martial arts. You'll see new avenues of "resisting" opponents and fixing flaws. And having options is always a good thing. :)

Mark

Kevin Leavitt
04-02-2007, 04:14 PM
To Don and Kevin.

Don't take this sarcastically because I'm serious. If you don't find anything useful here, why are you posting? It's been said that you can't see this stuff from a video. It's also been said that this stuff has been shown in a dynamic environment and it works. And it's been said that you have to feel this stuff. So, if you're confused and can't see how it'll be helpful, why keep posting? Because you'll just get the same answers again (see my first few sentences).

How about changing your questions? Why not direct your questions to the people who have felt it? Or some derivation?

Thanks,
Mark

No offense for sure!

Don pretty much said it for me. It is a matter of relative weight for us. I have so much time to spend training so what do you spend time training on? More importantly how do you integrate things, and what is different from one methodology to the next?

Again, words are thrown around here fairly liberally like martial effectiveness..yet rarely defined.

It is okay to say I like doing this because it makes me feel good and makes me feel powerful...I don't really care if it does not add relative value martially.

However, for me, I ask "what value does it add to you martially?"

It is a legitimate question and one I genuinely seek to understand.

I don't believe it has been adequately demonstrated in what I personally would define as a dynamic/non-compliant environment from those that post here. Pete I believe is the only one that has a sound background in a non-compliant practice that says that it has merit..so I am all ears to hear how he incorporates this type of training. It is important...don't confuse what I am saying.

I never said there was no value in it, I have only said I am confused and trying to understand the difference.

It is not that I don't want to meet some of these guys...it is only that I don't have the time or the ability right now. No one wants to waste valuable training time...so naturally I try and glean as much as I can out of what they are saying to try as best I can to try and understand my current practice against what they are saying.

Big difference between saying I see no value.

Mark, I spent 10 years studying TMA and Aikido and thinking I actually had some decent skills in fighting only to be shown by a few young Bullshido types that I did not really no jack about anything in a non-compliant and alive environment. It was a humiliating and eye opening experience that changed the way I assess training, how I train, and what I spend my time on.

I do find value in studying aikido, naturally I'd find value in what Mike and Rob..etc are into, frankly it is very exciting...it is figuring out where and how it fits into that framework that matter.

It also matters trying to figure out what is different about it than what is being done by guys like Rickson Gracie, and some of the high ranking BJJ guys I swap sweat with from time to time when I can.

It is important because that is my frame of reference and I geniunely want to know what is different..so I am all ears when I here someone like Pete that has spent time with guys like Rickson and talks about "components" I become curious and want to better understand.

I hope this helps explain my view point on this subject.

DH
04-02-2007, 04:21 PM
Unbelievable!
Kevin:
Dan why do you just do static pushing?
Dan
Its a training tool to test the solo work We fight. I punch, kick, do takedown resistence, ground fight, submit and choke
Kevin
I can't understaind the value in static training
Dan
Its a training tool to test the solo work We fight. I punch, kick, do takedown resistence, ground fight, submit and choke.
Kevin
I can't see how training with aikido people meets my interest in what you do . Do you just use it in aikido?
Dan
No we use it in MMA. I do MMA. Its a body method trained in solo work. It strengthens the bodies connections and useable strength. With it we fight. punch, kick, do takedown resistence ground fight, submit and choke.
Kevin
As I said, I have my own criteria, as selfish and personal as it maybe, so admittidly that is what I am using to try and understand this. I am not trying to be judgemental or negative, only trying to understand it based on that criteria. My criteria is mine. I donlt know if this is relevant to BJJ or grapplling
Dan
Its been used many times against BJJ. We use it in MMA though. I do MMA. Its a body method trained in solo work. It strengthens the bodies connections and useable strength. With it we fight. punch, kick, do takedown resistence ground fight, submit and choke.
Kevin
Obviously I see value in this type of training as I continue to study Aikido, and certainly anything that improves my ability to understand body movement and kinetics as it relates to Martial arts is worthwhile.
Dan
All I am interested in is how it relates to MMA. We fight. punch, kick, do takedown resistence ground fight, submit and choke.

Kevin
I'd say that someone that has designed/codified a program of study that provides a methodology for core practices with aliveness training would be on the right track, and it would keep me from having to study both aikido and BJJ.

Dan
Its tailor made for martial arts of any kind. particularly MMA. We fight. I punch, kick, do takedown resistence ground fight, submit and choke.

Kevin
I just don't understand how any of this is relevant to a more real environment. Where you would punch, kick, do takedown resistence ground fight, submit and choke.

Dan
Its a training tool to test the solo work We fight. I punch, kick, do takedown resistence ground fight, submit and choke.

Kevin
Why don't you talk about these things :how what you do relates to punching Kicking takedown resistence and chokes. I'm only interested in how I can actually use it.

Dan passes out..... :confused:
Dan wakes up with a question
Why doesn't any one. Any...Single....One......Ask men who have experienced this, what they think?

Why?

think I figured it out
They truly are not interested in any answer at all. It is why there is no direct question to the many who have felt these skills. Mike had it right.

Those who were interested have gotten out. What remains are those here who came in with an agenda, are unwilling to entertain new information. The interested ones have gotten out to try it.
It's why the debates no longer have meaning.

Dan

MM
04-02-2007, 04:22 PM
I do not mean to imply that I see no value in it. I am saying I don't understand the value in it. A big difference from others I believe that are seeking to say this is crap or something along those lines. There is a difference between seeking to understand vice seeking to discredit.



Hi Kevin,

From a personal perspective that I'm going to put into a "live" environment. I've taken a kick from Dan and from Rob. Both weren't done with full "power" or else I'd be in a cast. This was done in a static environment. I stood there, they kicked. Well, not really kicked as you would probably think of it. It wasn't like a kickboxer kick or a karate kick, but more of a smooth, move the leg, take a step, contact the other person's thigh kind of kick. But, let me say again, what a force. I had no bruise from either Dan or Rob, but my thigh was sore for days. :)

Now, that's a relaxed, internal kick. Imagine if you're sparring with someone and there isn't any wind-up into the kick like you normally see. Instead it's as if they're just stepping forward, but instead they kick the side of your leg. Down you go.

I've felt the "no inch release" from both Dan and Mike in a static environment and they both knocked me off my feet. Now imagine if you're sparring someone and you clench. Remember, there is no wind up but there's enough power to knock someone backwards. The internal guy lets go with a no inch release and creates an opening, following it up with another hit or kick or take down. Think about that. When you train and clench, can you do a no inch release and knock someone backwards? Or do you have to wind up with a punch? Or worse, use your body muscles to try to shove them away?

That's just two examples from my personal experience. The internal stuff has quite a bit of value in it. Whether you want to invest the time in the training or not ... well, that's a whole different question. :)

Mark

Kevin Leavitt
04-02-2007, 04:26 PM
Mark wrote:

As for #2, my answer is it works. Even though I don't do MMA, I can definitely see applications to using it in an MMA environment. Let me take a stab at this. If I'm "grappling" with someone and I can take their force and ground it such that it throws them off balance, then I can take advantage of their off balance to fit whatever lock or strike I want. If someone gets an armbar on me and I can negate effectively negate that, then it gives me a lot of options I wouldn't normally have with just technique.


Mark, how can you say that you can see how this would work in a MMA environment if you don't know MMA or have not trained in it? This is what is frustrating for me as a MMA guy. Guys that don't train in MMA then profess to see theorectically how it could help, but yet cannot show me how to apply it.

This is not to say it has no merit or that there is nothing Mark Murray has of value to teach me. Far from it.

My guess would be that you are probably much better at aikido than I am in an aikido kinda context. My guess is that you probably can do many things with internal skills...heck I can't even adequately demonstrate unbendable arm!

However, in a MMA environment, things might be much different, and you may not be able to demonstrate jack, if what you say is true and have no experience in it.

This is not to say that MMA is the end all and be all of that is in the spectrum of Martial Arts or budo...however, once you throw your hat into this big ring of fire...well the glove are off and now you must play within a different paradigm.

As I said above...it was a humbling experience to say..."yea, I am a aikido guy...I can hold my own." and then proceeded to get my ass handed to me by a guy with less than a years worth of training in a MMA context.

So, yes, once you bring up that term...MMA we are looking at a whole different criteria to judge realitive value of time and skills.

It is not if you can "see" how it might be helpful...it is can you demonstrate it effectively.

I take it one step further... "how is it different from what many of the top guys such as Rickson Gracie are doing?"

Pete and Ron are attempting to answer these questions, and I appreciate it.

Kevin Leavitt
04-02-2007, 04:36 PM
Mark,

Yes I did hear from many in ANV that Rob and Mike demonstrated amazing power in their kicks and punches. Impressive and worthwile to play with for sure.

I understand your enthusiam in what they have to teach.

You bring up "imagine what they could do in a clinch from that range".

This is what I really want to figure out...how you do these things in this range with so many other things going on that plays with your body, propriceptions, ability to generate power while "touching"in an alive manner....this is what is key for guys like Don and I...it goes further than core fundamentals....

This is all that is being said, there is a time and place for everything, and in MMA you don't need the best technique or plan...only one that works...this is what is important to remember once you enter this world...Pete illudes to it.

I'd say the same to you...go try MMA and see how what you learn or are learning works in that environement and then report back on your experiences, it'd be interesting to hear your impressions and views. I am not saying this sarcastically...but in a geniune way..go and do it!

Kevin Leavitt
04-02-2007, 04:41 PM
Dan,

Chill out. I have no beef with you or with this stuff. I'd be happy to meet you and train in an alive, non-compliant manner and may try and do so once I return to the states this summer. This is the only agenda I have so we have no issue that I can see, and provided that we are both being honest with ourselves and our agendas then we would both end up being best friends...so relax!

MM
04-02-2007, 04:51 PM
Mark wrote:

Mark, how can you say that you can see how this would work in a MMA environment if you don't know MMA or have not trained in it? This is what is frustrating for me as a MMA guy. Guys that don't train in MMA then profess to see theorectically how it could help, but yet cannot show me how to apply it.


Hmmm ... well, just because I say I don't do MMA doesn't mean I'm entirely clueless. At one point in time, I did a little Shinto Muso Ryu jodo, I've done two different schools/styles of Aikido, I did just a wee bit of hapkido, and I'm training kali/silat. I know some people into judo and karate, although I don't study that. Doesn't take a certified, card carrying MMAist to understand some things and put them in a basic context. Does it mean I'm good at MMA, nope. But it does mean I can see value in certain things.

And i gave several examples. Let's take nikkyo for another example. If someone with internal skills can negate 99% of all nikkyo attempts, then it's only a matter of time before that gets applied to an armbar. You ever tap anyone out with an armbar? How about if you got an armbar on someone, crank for all your worth, and they laugh at you. How about if someone goes to do a leg takedown and nothing happens -- you don't go down.

What I don't get is how people *can not* see the value in this. So I guess I'm on the opposite side you're on, Kevin, in that regard. :)

Mark

HL1978
04-02-2007, 04:52 PM
Mark,

Yes I did hear from many in ANV that Rob and Mike demonstrated amazing power in their kicks and punches. Impressive and worthwile to play with for sure.

I understand your enthusiam in what they have to teach.

You bring up "imagine what they could do in a clinch from that range".

This is what I really want to figure out...how you do these things in this range with so many other things going on that plays with your body, propriceptions, ability to generate power while "touching"in an alive manner....this is what is key for guys like Don and I...it goes further than core fundamentals....

This is all that is being said, there is a time and place for everything, and in MMA you don't need the best technique or plan...only one that works...this is what is important to remember once you enter this world...Pete illudes to it.

I'd say the same to you...go try MMA and see how what you learn or are learning works in that environement and then report back on your experiences, it'd be interesting to hear your impressions and views. I am not saying this sarcastically...but in a geniune way..go and do it!

Just as a side note, the Aunkai has a sanda/sparring class now. If you check the new english version of the aunkai page it references it on the schedule.

Feel free to ask Rob about his use of this stuff in an MMA environment, he regularly trains with MMA practicioners, and a couple of them have joined the Aunkai after working out with Rob. Last time I was in japan, a couple of them were doing the the exercises prior to sparring.

Asides from some of the benefits that Mark listed, you can find that you can generate power in positions that can be considered disadvantageous. This definatly takes people by surprise, and of course that opens up a whole realm of options you can follow up with.

DH
04-02-2007, 05:16 PM
It was a joke Kevin. I thought it was humorous. You do seem to shoot right past direct answers and ask the same one's again and again. All I have done is MMA. Even while training other things.Its what Rob does as well.
1 Takedown resistance
If you can't throw someone, or find it extremely difficult to do so due to these skills (not technique) andthe guys has the added benefit of his body taking care of itself as a defense while they nail you and toss you. That's a good thing.
2. Takedown resistnce and stabiltiy
If internal power results in you going for a single leg shoot and you not being able to lift the leg and getting elbowed or struck in your occiputall ridge repeatedly or kicked in the forehead-with increased unususal power thats a good thing
3. Power
If internal power results in punches from a clinch that can break ribs in an alive environment or knock you out cold from a single shot a foot away in a clinch. That's a good thing.
4. Moving, posting, set-ups and flow
If the inherent stucture creates whole body movement that makes it very difficult and tiring to move them on the ground -but fro some reason leaves them very relaxed and able to flow it and leaves them very sensitive to not having any opening or falling into them. A great platfrom to add technqiues to. That's a good thing.
5. Power and set-ups in stand up
If it takes no wind up in an alive environment to "throw" a punch and your hands are so heavy that without much effort you continually bind up their's all while striking with openings normal guys have trouble creating, as well as being able to control their extensions and rectractions in hittiing while nailing them repeatedly-thats a good thing
6. Absorption
Being able to absorb kicks and punchs in an alive manner while moving. Ignoring hits to the middle leaves you inreased openeing potential in then wearing down and with binding them up. Having a different type of puching power to their middle ffrom unconventional angles and means is a good thing
7. Lock resistence is throught the roof
8. Less energy used in prolonged rolling with increased breath control adn manipulation

So, takedown resistance, power, absorption, sensitivity in feel, lock resistence, conservation of energy. Anyone can say it. Everyone trains it, some achieve it in to various levels. This type of power is greater and more efficient.

But the real thing is-thought it takes longer to get-likewise it lasts longer till in old age. As well it is better way to move in your own body. There is no better way to move and generate power
Is it needed in MMA?
No! MMA is the great equalizer. Its why I do it.
Is it a better way to do MMA?
Yes!
Is it a better way to do Aikido?
Yes!

No one and nothing is unbeatable. That's stupid. But these skills give great advantages. Overall it's rather neat to be fifty and let some twenty something MMAers and Navy boxers pound on you and try to hit you and their arms die out from hitting your arms which feel like htting rubber coated steel,(a very common attribute to men with internal skills) They hit you in the stomach and you just keep coming and they get wasted trying to throw you and you go through them without much effort lifting and tossing and holding back frrom knocking them out cold. Or let Judo guys try to throw you.
Rob is experiencing this now some of my guys have as well . I don't know who else is playing in that venue.
Will top flight MMAers beat it? Of course.
Would they be better with these skills?
Yes
Will we be better when we age? Yes!

KIT
04-02-2007, 05:25 PM
I think we also have to realize that not all Judo, BJJ, MMA-ers are created equal, especially in this day and age of "cardio-MMA" getting more and more popular.

Just as all IMA guys aren't...

Judo/BJJ/MMA are often held up as a litmus test for effective martial application, even by the folks who hate it. That ought to tell us something. On whatever board you go to: aiki, CMA, JMA, combatives - there are comparison threads, questions, and often the wink-wink/nod nod in threads where this or that TMA or RBSD guy tooled an MMA, Judo, whatever guy. Names and rank are of course never mentioned...

So is it the IMA practitioner, if the guy doesn't do well, but if he does well against a BJJ-er of any skill level its the discipline(s) as a whole?

Knowing where I stand in the grappling world has been a very informative thing for me when going up against some of these guys who write "stuff" on the Internet, and whose self-aggrandzing bios place them in the lofty heights of MA or combatives "experts."

Instructor level people in some cases who can do next to nothing against a basically half-time training BJJ blue belt....they would be thoroughly owned by a decent high school wrestler or Junior National judoka.

Yet on the Internet - oh my - what they can do!!!

I am not saying Rob is like that in any way - he was very self effacing and realistic about his grappling. He is a seeker and puts it on the line and doesn't care about the outcome because he is working it out, and with some success. He has something to offer all grapplers in what he does, and I truly enjoyed meeting and training with him.

Since I have rolled with him, I confess to some surprise when he describes what is happening with blue and purple belts in Japan.He did say he thought the level of skill in light of ranking there is not as high as it is here. BJJ wise that is. I think he's right. I know what the good blues and purples are capable of, if only against me, from several different schools here in the States and I don't think, where Rob is at, he would be doing to them what he is doing in Japan.

Since I put my body where my keyboard is, I also called Dan when he was last in Seattle, and was preparing to drive up for an evening of throwing down (friendly, if skeptical, mind you) and breaking bread, but he never called me back.

Maybe next time he will.

DH
04-02-2007, 05:48 PM
Hi Kit
You're on my dance card sometime.
Friendly but skepitcal??
Of what? We both been yaking up grappling for how long?. What are we going to debate?
Are you talking about the bodywork? All we may debate is whether you find these skills and aid to your game or not and how tough you may find it playing with the old man. The game is the game is the game. Leather is leather. Whadda ya think I turned into a Ki bunny? Who do you think you're talking too bubba?:smile:
As for hooking up it's getting to be ridiculous for me out there. There's just no time left man.
You speak to real issues about grapplling, but also there are issues of MMA VS pure grappling as well. Man I wish I was twenty five and single sometimes. There are just too many greats to get out and meet and I know I can't. Argghh!. There is at least some good training with both known and unknowns. I played with 6' 9" guy last year with internal skills trying to get in the UFC. Trains on 320lb. water bags. We're trying to get Tim out here to the east coast to play and teach and I'll be there hopefully as a co-sponser!! Can you spell lots of one-on-one training? I want to feel Tim's take on all this. I know he has very good BJJ skills. But I want to see if he has good internals as well.

At least we know folks don't have to be convinced any more of the truths of good grappling and MMA being the great equalizer. That's at least done. I'm an old fart I still remember the days of trashing many TMAers with simply no clue how to move and fight.

Kevin Leavitt
04-02-2007, 05:56 PM
Mark wrote:

And i gave several examples. Let's take nikkyo for another example. If someone with internal skills can negate 99% of all nikkyo attempts, then it's only a matter of time before that gets applied to an armbar. You ever tap anyone out with an armbar? How about if you got an armbar on someone, crank for all your worth, and they laugh at you. How about if someone goes to do a leg takedown and nothing happens -- you don't go down.

In my limited experiences nikkyo is pretty much a non technique in MMA because it simply does not work for anyone that I have ever worked with. Not saying that it won't work, just that I have never seen it. Also, as Bob Galeone used to say...any aikido techniques can be negated or avoided if you don't want them applied and have superior skills in positioning yourself over your opponent.

Sure pain compliance has it's limitation and so do things like arm bars, the don't work every time. Anyone who has developed a decent game in grappling knows this and therefore rolls to the next thing, then to the next thing. Personally these days I don't go trolling for arm bars..if they are there they are there...if not then they are not...I worry more about the position I am in than anything else and let things develop. This is a big distinction in technique seekers and those with a little more maturity in BJJ. (Higher blue and purple on up).

Sure there are guys that can avoid takedowns...I don't really care why or how they avoid them..they do...therefore you must move on to the next thing...not stop and go "wow, you avoided my takedown...amazing!" (Aliveness)

Those with the ability to position themselves with balance, posture, timing etc better than the other guy will always control the fight and avoid arm bars, takedowns, etc...nothing magical there or suprising.

Doesn't matter to me if you call in internal or external or what not...if you can do it better than me...then I want to know how you do it, and for you to show me what is wrong.

It is really that simple. Aliveness allows this to happen.

I am all over the fact that many describe the feeling etc as being different than anything they have felt before..got it, it happens when you experience something new.

KIT
04-02-2007, 05:58 PM
It's cool, Dan. Everybody told me you don't call anyone back!

And I know what you mean re: grappling vs. MMA - they are different games. I think the positional game is similar, however, it depends how you use it.

As Kevin would no doubt agree, some of the same things apply combatives wise.

It'd be cool if you bring Tim out there. Let me know if that pans out I'd love to be in the same room with you two swapping notes, maybe I'll make the trip too.

KIT
04-02-2007, 06:03 PM
Friendly but skepitcal??
Of what? We both been yaking up grappling for how long?


Sneaky, you added that in while I was replying.

Actually, I don't recall you EVER mentioning MMA back in the old Aiki-wars days on E-Budo, or elsewhere until fairly recently. It was all koryu - admittedly with some judo thrown in.

You talked about training resistance, for sure, but then again there was talk about "no touch pins" and the "electric fish flop" from Cady as well, so all I am saying is I'm keeping the salt shaker handy...

:D

DH
04-02-2007, 06:06 PM
Yeah but I want to swap note on two levels. His BJJ is supposed to be great so thats one. But then I want ot ya about the internal training he does. Nothing personal but I wonder if most just confuse the two? I'll be searching on two levels. Honestly I expect him to nail me in a pure BJJ game so that will be a fun and interesting learning experience. But its the rest where it will be more discerning.

DH
04-02-2007, 06:27 PM
Sneaky, you added that in while I was replying.

Actually, I don't recall you EVER mentioning MMA back in the old Aiki-wars days on E-Budo, or elsewhere until fairly recently. It was all koryu - admittedly with some judo thrown in.

You talked about training resistance, for sure, but then again there was talk about "no touch pins" and the "electric fish flop" from Cady as well, so all I am saying is I'm keeping the salt shaker handy...

:D
Oooh really? It wasn't called MMA then. The aiki stuff? Ya pin head that was just more debates over what I am still debating here now. Koryu Aiki- the internals and techniques. But all done in modern fighting I don't think I ever saw a classic "form" done in my dojo. Ya missed the part where I said the cramping pins were real -very real- but highly improbable. I did them but neeever advocated even trrying them in the real world. I never even taught wrist locks as anything much useful either.
I argued then as now- on two fronts.
If you come out I'll show you some after training pictures from those days and you can be your own judge as to wehter we were aikifruity. Or you can bop on over to the internal thread hear and ask Andy the thread starter- he was training with me then. Then again ask Cady about her first day training with me?
Aiki fruity? wrong guy Kit...oh my god...wrong guy.
What you missed was- I was comng home having to train it and try it on the Judo guys and my life long playmates- my wifes two giant wresttler cousins. And my guys who could have cared less about wrist grabs. If you came to play you'd have seen knives, twin sticks, and heavy bags. I still beat the drum for Aiki, in as much as it will knock someone out or stop you from throwing me while I threw you.
You thinking I was Aikifruity is on you bud.;)
With a remark like that If you want to bring salt...
Make it the smelling kind. hah!
Hope to see ya soon, bud

stan baker
04-02-2007, 06:42 PM
Hi Dan,

It seems like an excercise in tolerence on your part you should get a gold medal just for that. anyway just keep posting sagawa's quote and maybe some day they will get it. talk to you soon.

stan

DH
04-02-2007, 06:50 PM
Oh I think a whole bunch of folks "get it."
Many are planning on meeting and searching out folks who will share what they know.
Others who can are re-thinking their training and practicing
Others are meeting and training already
And maybe others are really bugging their own teachers to be more open.
There are a whole bunch of quiet behind-the-scenes plans going on with many. People are pretty bright. They work by networking and Word of mouth. I don't think I'm up to it, but I hope they can find some real experts. Or at least go train with as many who will share as they can.
See ya soon

KIT
04-02-2007, 07:16 PM
Oooh really? It wasn't called MMA then. The aiki stuff? Ya pin head that was just more debates over what I am still debating here now. Koryu Aiki- the internals and techniques. But all done in modern fighting I don't think I ever saw a classic "form" done in my dojo. Ya missed the part where I said the cramping pins were real -very real- but highly improbable. I did them but neeever advocated even trrying them in the real world. I never even taught wrist locks as anything much useful either.
I argued then as now- on two fronts.
If you come out I'll show you some after training pictures from those days and you can be your own judge as to wehter we were aikifruity. Or you can bop on over to the internal thread hear and ask Andy the thread starter- he was training with me then. Then again ask Cady about her first day training with me?
Aiki fruity? wrong guy Kit...oh my god...wrong guy.
What you missed was- I was comng home having to train it and try it on the Judo guys and my life long playmates- my wifes two giant wresttler cousins. And my guys who could have cared less about wrist grabs. If you came to play you'd have seen knives, twin sticks, and heavy bags. I still beat the drum for Aiki, in as much as it will knock someone out or stop you from throwing me while I threw you.
You thinking I was Aikifruity is on you bud.;)
With a remark like that If you want to bring salt...
Make it the smelling kind. hah!
Hope to see ya soon, bud

Umm, yeah ok - so you never mentioned NHB, or UFC, or Shooto, or vale tudo or what have you back then. In fact I used to think Kiyama's Daito/Judo/Takeuchi sounded pretty damn cool, actually.

Dunno where you got Aikifruity from - Freudian slip??

And LOL at smelling salts - now THAT's what I'm talking about. This will be lots of fun.

Tim Mailloux
04-02-2007, 07:47 PM
I am not an MMA guy, but for the life of me, I cannot grasp how someone cannot see how this stuff will help with any type of martial arts training, especially MMA. Out of any martial arts training, I see this stuff being the most usefull to the MMA guys.

Come on, this stuff makes you harder to take down or throw and it makes you hit / kick harder. How much more does an MMA guy want.

Just from my own experience, after about 2 months of working on Dan's solo exersises everyday I am starting to see real results. And let me tell you, these exersizes are not fun! Sadistic is one word that comes to mind. But then again I am an ex aiki-bunny now hooked on judo thanks to Dan.
Back to my story. Every morning I like to get up and hit the heavy bag for 30 to 45 minutes. I am not a fighter, I do it for stress relief and as a cardio workout. I just got a new 100lb bag for Xmas, my old 80lb one finally died on me after 10 years. In the past couple of weeks I have noticed that I am hitting and kicking the bag *much* harder and with *much* less effort. When I try to put muscular strenght into my punches and kicks not so much happens, except that I get a nice cardio workout. But when I relax, focus on my structure the bag seems to jump off my gloves. I am hitting with less strenght and less velocity, but somehow my hands are much heavier. This morning the bag actually came off 3 of the 4 chains. I guess it is time for a heavier bag!

Now if I can just figure out how to us this during judo.

DonMagee
04-02-2007, 09:14 PM
I am not an MMA guy, but for the life of me, I cannot grasp how someone cannot see how this stuff will help with any type of martial arts training, especially MMA. Out of any martial arts training, I see this stuff being the most usefull to the MMA guys.

Come on, this stuff makes you harder to take down or throw and it makes you hit / kick harder. How much more does an MMA guy want.

Just from my own experience, after about 2 months of working on Dan's solo exersises everyday I am starting to see real results. And let me tell you, these exersizes are not fun! Sadistic is one word that comes to mind. But then again I am an ex aiki-bunny now hooked on judo thanks to Dan.
Back to my story. Every morning I like to get up and hit the heavy bag for 30 to 45 minutes. I am not a fighter, I do it for stress relief and as a cardio workout. I just got a new 100lb bag for Xmas, my old 80lb one finally died on me after 10 years. In the past couple of weeks I have noticed that I am hitting and kicking the bag *much* harder and with *much* less effort. When I try to put muscular strenght into my punches and kicks not so much happens, except that I get a nice cardio workout. But when I relax, focus on my structure the bag seems to jump off my gloves. I am hitting with less strenght and less velocity, but somehow my hands are much heavier. This morning the bag actually came off 3 of the 4 chains. I guess it is time for a heavier bag!

Now if I can just figure out how to us this during judo.

Sounds exactly like how you are suppose to hit a bag, relaxed with proper technique. If your arms are getting tired, your usually punching wrong.

This is a mute argument for me anyways, nobody out here is teaching it.

statisticool
04-02-2007, 09:18 PM
Where is a video of YOU doing anything, Justin?


Yet I'm not the one making claims of never being able to be pushed over, etc., etc. When I start making such claims, then you'd have a right to ask for evidence of the extraordinary.


Who's your teacher? Have you ever studied Aikido? You've never even studied Taiji. Who was your teacher in Taiji? If he didn't teach you jin and qi skills, which from your posts he/she didn't, then he didn't teach you Taiji. Name your teacher. If you want to disparage people, put yourself on the line, too.


Already addressed elsewhere. I also already addressed that comment on aikido and taijiquan from those outside aikido and taijiquan don't carry much, if any, weight.

Justin

Pete Rihaczek
04-02-2007, 09:25 PM
[QUOTE=Kevin Leavitt;174386]Frankly I get confused as to the what the focus of all this is. Seems like we go through a pattern here. Proponents (those that have jumped on the bandwagon creep slowly to the fact that this is very useful...then those that say, "then why don't we see this in UFC, or in an aliveness environment ..then there is shift in definition, or a failure to define parameters...and then I am left scratching my head trying to figure out how to frame this once again.

The weight lifting thread kinda bugged me, but I refrained as I had not much positive to add. My thoughts were if weight lifing, defined core strength development, is not important, then why can I pretty much predict who will win a fight based on physical appearance 80% of the time? Also, we are we not seeing these mushy soft guys in UFC. I sort of see Justin's point, but in a slightly different way.

So, I remain confused as to the value this training might have.

/QUOTE]

It's a valid question, and if you are preparing to fight soon, and you don't have someone training you in this stuff in an open way, then your time would likely be better spent elsewhere. If you're competing, you need a good coach, and where this stuff is concerned those are very scarce. Depends entirely on your circumstances.

And for the record, Justin doesn't have a point. I was a pretty technical amateur magician for many years, attended the magicians-only lectures at the Magic Castle, big fan of Penn and Teller and Randi, and all the rest of it, and there's nothing anybody can tell me about being a skeptic. He's not being a skeptic here, he's just being a punk, and throwing all skeptics under the bus by association. There are no paranormal claims being made here, there is nothing to "debunk", and no possibility of forming a meaningful opinion without personally seeing and experiencing what is under discussion, and trying to come to a common understanding about what exactly is being said. You do that, he does none of that, and will not, because that isn't his purpose. The truth is that he simply doesn't like what Mike and others are saying because it indicates that both in Taiji (he's apparently a Zheng Manqing fan) and Aikido, his practice is empty of anything the founders of those arts would consider substantive, and he doesn't like that idea. He's not honest enough to simply say so, but it is patently obvious with every post he makes. All he does is follow Mike, Dan, and Rob around, contribute nothing of substance, and have the nerve to pretend to ask questions when all he's really doing is making the same statement over and over: "I don't want you guys to be right". There's an easier solution that doesn't display his character in public, and that's to ignore the discussion.

These threads are for those people who actually have the interest and werewithal to be perpetual students even if they are already teachers, and actually work to find things of real value and share them with others. The real artists and enthusiasts with a level of emotional maturity, not the petty egos, in other words. The only purpose someone like Justin serves is to inflate the view numbers on these threads and perhaps help attract some decent people like yourself in the process.

statisticool
04-02-2007, 09:26 PM
I've felt the "no inch release" from both Dan and Mike in a static environment and they both knocked me off my feet. Now imagine if you're sparring someone and you clench.


But why "imagine"?

If an internal guru clenches, I can imagine them not being able to do anything due to always or primarily training in static postures with play nice rules and parameters.

I look forward to the future when UFC and similar events will be dominated by internal skills.

statisticool
04-02-2007, 09:31 PM
He's not being a skeptic here, he's just being a punk, and throwing all skeptics under the bus by association. There are no paranormal claims being made here, there is nothing to "debunk", and no possibility of forming a meaningful opinion without personally seeing and experiencing what is under discussion, and trying to come to a common understanding about what exactly is being said. You do that, he does none of that, and will not, because that isn't his purpose. The truth is that he simply doesn't like what Mike and others are saying because it indicates that both in Taiji (he's apparently a Zheng Manqing fan) and Aikido, his practice is empty of anything the founders of those arts would consider substantive, and he doesn't like that idea. He's not honest enough to simply say so, but it is patently obvious with every post he makes. All he does is follow Mike, Dan, and Rob around, contribute nothing of substance, and have the nerve to pretend to ask questions when all he's really doing is making the same statement over and over: "I don't want you guys to be right". There's an easier solution that doesn't display his character in public, and that's to ignore the discussion.


I never claimed that there are "paranormal" things going on here.

But you're seriously claiming that the claim of not being able to be pushed over at all is not an extraordinary claim?

And you don't find it odd, that this supposed really really really effective way of moving hasn't won any titles in UFC, for example, competitions?

Justin

Cady Goldfield
04-02-2007, 10:08 PM
I never claimed that there are "paranormal" things going on here.

But you're seriously claiming that the claim of not being able to be pushed over at all is not an extraordinary claim?

And you don't find it odd, that this supposed really really really effective way of moving hasn't won any titles in UFC, for example, competitions?

Justin

Geez, Justin. You sound like a broken record! After men with years of training and teaching experience have said otherwise, you cling to your litany. You have a chance to feel this stuff, so I'd have to say that if you keep sawing out the same tired old questions, but blowing off the cogent answers, you're just trolling.

KIT
04-02-2007, 11:46 PM
Its "clinch," BTW.

Clenching is something different. :p

Pete Rihaczek
04-02-2007, 11:53 PM
Pete I believe is the only one that has a sound background in a non-compliant practice that says that it has merit..so I am all ears to hear how he incorporates this type of training.

I only have time to skim through and this thread seems to be moving pretty quickly so I might miss things that call for a response, but I wanted to respond to this. I don't know about Dan, but I'm sure Mike was street fighting when I was still in martial diapers, so to speak, so the idea that I'm the only one with a non-compliant background isn't right. ;) As to the latter question, the answer is with wishful thinking. ;) This stuff is quite rare, and there's no one close to me that can be a coach. I work with what I know, get out and meet people when I can amongst a busy schedule of family and business commitments. I have limited time for any training at all these days. I'm still waiting for Rob to post some sort of Akuzawa seminar schedule, but he's too busy skirt-chasing to answer his emails...not that I blame him the least, all things considered. Being a young man in Japan would keep me too busy for internet forums, that's for sure. ;)

I haven't rolled with Rob, and what he does is a bit different than what Mike does, so I don't know how it feels in a ground context. For standing grappling and hitting, particularly short-range hitting it's a no-brainer that this stuff is useful. Adding it to hitting is probably the easiest thing to do and get some pretty quick utility, other things are more complicated, and how far you can take it depends on if you have time and access to someone good. If all you care about is training for the next MMA competition, I'm not sure why that's coming up on an Aikido forum. You're training for MMA, but have time to do Aikido, and then wonder if the internal stuff is worth pursuing? If you're training for MMA, then trying to incorporate the internal bodywork is certainly a better use of time than doing any Aikido no matter how you slice it. If you can invest in the long term a bit more it makes even more sense to see what you can get.

Kevin Leavitt
04-03-2007, 12:45 AM
Thanks the the info Pete I appreciate, it is helpful.

To clarifiy,I never said I was wondering if it was worth pursuing, only how do you incorporate it into an MMA environment. I think some are confusing the issue.

My purpose of training is not to compete in MMA, I am way too old for that. I was studying Aikido long before getting involved in MMA methdologies. My interest are adapting the knowledge I gained from aikido in a more dynamic, non-compliant manner. My intent of the questions and area of focus is how do you incorporate what these guys are doing in the same environment, and how is it different from other methdologies from say guys like Rickson.

That simple.

Thanks again for the reply!

kironin
04-03-2007, 03:06 AM
Also Shin Budo Kai (maybe?). Imaizumi sensei is a direct student of K.Tohei sensei but I don't know if he kept ki-development in his curriculum.


yes.

He calls it Genkido and they do have classes that focus on it.

kironin
04-03-2007, 03:12 AM
Ki-Aikido has now become something slightly different than O-Sensei's Aikido, but *some* of the practitioners are definitely performing what I would call acceptable ki skills (but they can do better!!! ;) ).


Hai !
I'm working on it!
;)
:D :ki:

kironin
04-03-2007, 04:20 AM
It seems to me that my time is better spent drilling passes, escapes, and submissions, then sparing. Every hour I work on rooting is an hour I could be throwing resisting opponents and fixing flaws in my technique.

I used to train bjj 2 days a week, and aikido 3 days a week. Most of my aikido class supposedly focused on building ki. In fact I'd say 90% of the class is ki exercises. I've seen very cool things out of the brown belts and the instructors, however over the course of 2 years I have not found tangible benefit to ki training to help my fighting ability.

This is not to say it is worthless, but until I am proven otherwise, I have to conclude based on experience that my time more efficiently spent perfecting my technique in alive drills.

If you have limited training time, you have to make priorities.

What I am wondering is where you are training. Even though the ki development exercises is a system, the teachers depth of understanding still makes a difference. Also have you asked questions and are they willing to think outside the box and answer. You may very well not make the connections on your own to what you are doing. It could be the training is helping in ways you are not aware of yet. It also could be a little guidance could make all the difference and the light bulb pops on.

DH
04-03-2007, 07:26 AM
Don Magee wrote:
It seems to me that my time is better spent drilling passes, escapes, and submissions, then sparing. Every hour I work on rooting is an hour I could be throwing resisting opponents and fixing flaws in my technique.

I used to train bjj 2 days a week, and aikido 3 days a week. Most of my aikido class supposedly focused on building ki. In fact I'd say 90% of the class is ki exercises. I've seen very cool things out of the brown belts and the instructors, however over the course of 2 years I have not found tangible benefit to ki training to help my fighting ability.

This is not to say it is worthless, but until I am proven otherwise, I have to conclude based on experience that my time more efficiently spent perfecting my technique in alive drills.

I disagree
The body conditioning I have been advocating is tailor made for fighting. Its the only reason I pursued and conitnue to pursue it in the first place. Pretty much if I can't see results- your gonna lose me fast. and once convinced I get obessed with working it to death. I'm not going to be doing jujutsu kata for ten minutes before I'm looking for someone to bang with to prove out the supposed "theory." And that from force-on-force. How internal training greatly increases real usable strength and power has to be felt. I think most people's lack of understanding and their doubts about it being ONLY static training is largely based on assumptions of what they think they know. It appears the hundreds of comments about use in movement and use in freestyle is blowing right past them. They are stuck on "tilt" since they first heard the words "static pushing." Virtually every response now is white noise. There is no real discussion moving forward about -movement and fighting application- despite many efforts. We might as well say a training drill is a waste of time. Or any movement to burn-in body knoweldge and awareness is a waste of time. Forums are classic evidence of that. They either talk past one another- not really hearing- or they flat out refuse to believe there is a body conditioning method ....they..... don't know.

All this from the wonderkins who:
Did not know the ground game till UFC and scoffed
Did not recognize the real power of grappling till shown
Did not know Kettle bell and cross fit training
Did not know core training and scoffed

They don't know the internal skills and body conditioning and they scoff at that too.
We only know what we know and can see. SSDD.

Budd
04-03-2007, 07:51 AM
Its "clinch," BTW.

Clenching is something different. :p

And let's not even get into how it's used to create tension, release and generate power . . . darn, I went there, didn't I?

Budd
04-03-2007, 08:33 AM
I think an important point has been raised, regarding assumptions and attitudes.

I can understand those that seem to be primarily doubting based on what they "know" from training in bjj, mma, etc. resistance-based paradigms - ie "trying stuff out". However, I think the main advocates for the internal work have more than adequately addressed the questions regarding how this stuff is "useful" in a resistance-based, mma-type setting. What's particularly striking to me, is how similar these discussions are becoming to those, back in the early days of MMA in the US, for why understanding the grappling environment was important.

You had lots of folks making assumptions about what grapplers were doing, rather than finding out for themselves.

People insisted that, based on what they knew, there wasn't any need to understand how a grappler can operate.

Lots of people pointed out the myriad number of "techniques" they had at their disposal that would stop a grappler.

People would point at their lineage and number of years in "x" art as proof that they understood grappling, even if they didn't or never had trained in it.

Grapplers, does this sound familiar? I know that a lot of the times when I heard this in the 90s was when I was playing more in aikido and karate paradigms of training. A lot of the time I'd smile and nod at what people were saying, it's just words, right? Sometimes, in a more "testing" type setting where we'd mix it up, I'd change their minds about some of their assumptions regarding grappling. Sometimes, I'd invite them to try out their theories at the local freestyle/greco club that I'd visit.

Nowadays, people in MMA (that are primarily strikers) are implementing (at least) components of grappling (sprawl, clinch, etc.) into their overall game (Cro Cop, Anderson Silva, etc.) "by training in it" so that they have a base and understanding of it in order to close that hole in their training

I have my own ideas about how "aiki" type stuff works in a grappling/resistance-based approach. Rather than post theories about them or assume they're valid, or even worse, base my results on how they work on non-grapplers -- I go visit the local bjj club and try them out.

But seriously, at this point, there have been enough folks trying this stuff and getting out there to try to feel it (I've met a couple of them at seminars and would give enough credence in their words to want to learn more), shouldn't we be past the point of wondering if there's value here and more on the line of what's the best way for us to feel it for ourselves (or better yet, asking questions of those who know more than we do)? From the sounds of it, there's lots of sweat and work involved, so if that's going to be a problem, then some will be weeded out already.

For myself, I'd love to learn more about this stuff. I have a full plate already of family, work and budo, but sometimes being able to grow and adapt means buying a bigger plate (leave space for humble pie if necessary) or moving aside the garnish that's pretty, but not digestible.

FWIW

Erik Johnstone
04-03-2007, 08:44 AM
I think that Dan, Mike & Rob have pretty well done what they can to convince those on this board who were or are already willing to ask questions about what it is that they are trying to "accomplish" in their training. Those of us that have made the effort to visit and train with Dan felt it instantly (speaking for myself, anyway)! And, as others have already stated, what is very telling here is that the others in Dan's dojo can do it, and show it, at varying levels, as well.

As Mark M. and Mark C. have already said, ask the people that have or are going to see Dan (or Mike & Rob) about their experience. Mark Murray made his second visit to Dan's just recently, driving 9 hours up and training for 6 hours, and turning around and driving 9 hours back home to work on these things. That kind of effort is very telling with respect to the value of training these skills.

In terms of value, these skills are applicable across the boards. I am a Karate/Jujutsu/Koryu guy, and from my perspective, the skills that Dan is willing to share are applicable to everything that I do. For me, the MMA approach is particlarly enticing, for most of the reasons that Dan has already mentioned. In fact, the MMA approach makes complete sense to me in terms of being true to the arts that I study, particularly classical Karate, an MMA from its very beginnings.

If you really are interested, try to arrange a visit to see Dan, even if you hold some doubt...you will be convinved, and you will want to pursue this training. On top of that, he is just a really nice, welcoming person (as is everyone else that trains with him), so you'll have fun too! If you are simply interested in refuting or ignoring what Dan, Mike and Rob are talking about and, moreover, are willing to share, then simply ignore these threads and move on.

DonMagee
04-03-2007, 09:05 AM
The problem is not that I do not believe in internal power. My aikido instructor and his top students all demonstrate it and I know for a fact it exists. My problem is that nobody can teach it to me in a way that makes it useful to me. I can't afford to travel the world to build my skill. My experience thus far with ki training has found it basically worthless for what I do (compete and fight). I can drill a guard pass and spar for 2 hours and notice atangible increase in ability. I tried to develop ki for almost 2 years (well I still try every aikido class I take which is admitidly not very often anymore) and to date I am able to think of only one instance where I was able to use internal strength to my advantage, and even then it was only for a few seconds where everything fit. I have not been able to replicate the situation.

Now I don't understand ki. I'm not qualified to teach it or claim anything about it. I can only tell you what I know. I know that my aikido teacher has ki. I can't move his arms if he doesn't' want me to. I can't lift him (well I couldn't lift him if he didn't have ki, he's a big guy). I can feel a different kind of strength in him then I do with say judo brown/black belts and bjj blue/purple belts. I also know that his top students (high brown and black belts) have some of the same qualities he has and are able to do some of what he can do most of the time. I also know his teacher is 80 years old and my teacher claims he can do the same things to him today.

However, two things always show up in my mind.

A) My teacher and his top students have trained for many years. My teacher has trained for as long as I have been alive. His top students are going on a decade. Even then I doubt if his students can demonstrate in sparing good internal skills. I know my instructor can, I can feel it when I attempt to resist a technique. I do not have decades of time to spend to learn a skill. I do not want to be a unmovable master at 50 or 60. I want to be successful now while I'm young and can enjoy the success of being young and competitive. This means I need to see tangible benefit in months, not years, the same way I see with my judo and bjj training. So far my personal experience has not shown me this. This is compounded by the fact that the training paradigm does not allow me to test the limits of internal strength and remain respectful. This means i can not see if the strength they develop is really any more powerful then what my bjj and judo instructor do to me.

B) The types of strength I encounter with top level bjj and judo guys (like higher blues, purples, and my instructors) is far different then the kind of strength I feel from my aikido instructor. However it also does not feel muscled and external. It is a natural way of moving that is developed though simple training judo and bjj. I am also unable to deal with this, the same way I am unable to deal with my aikido instructors strength. This skill I am building, and I get similar comments from people I spar with. (Nothing makes me happier then when someone 40 pounds larger then me and much stronger then me is tapping out and saying I'm stronger then I look.) The difference here is that I can just train more bjj and judo to develop this skill. It does not require me to shirk my technique training to develop an outside force I then have to reincorporate into my training. This is similar to my arguments about multiple opponent training. Until I can defeat one sufficiently trained opponent, why bother with 3.

Both of these issues is compounded with the fact that there is an argument on what is the real internal training. I do not have this with judo or bjj. There is no one saying "You can't train with the usjf, they don't' have the real judo." So I know I'm getting quality training. With internal skills, I do not have this same ability. To my knowledge there is no one in this area who can teach me these skills in a short time, and show me how to incorporate them into my bjj and judo.

So in short, its a neat physics trick. I can see how it could be useful if I could find someone to teach it and train it in a way that is worth while. However, I do not think it is feasible to spend time on until I at least have a bjj brown belt around my waist. So basically once I develop the limits of what they are teaching me, then it might be worth while to see something more. Unless a ki master moves into my city and lays the smack down on me.

Mike Sigman
04-03-2007, 09:16 AM
The problem is not that I do not believe in internal power. My aikido instructor and his top students all demonstrate it and I know for a fact it exists.Maybe, maybe not. I've met tons of people who "already do that stuff", their teacher already does it, talks about it, and knows all the buzzwords. The teacher can usually do some things that are impressive to people in the class. The problem is almost always that the "internal strength" someone is thinking they already know/do is not the jin/kokyu/ki/fajin, etc., that can be seen most competent Asian martial artists with solid credentials and real fighting experience.

Don't get me wrong, BTW... I don't answer or respond to most posts with the intent of arguing a point. I do it simply with the idea that it might help the lurking beginner out there to see the other side of the point. I am by no means encouraging you to go outside of your teacher; only a very few people are going to be that interested.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

MM
04-03-2007, 09:32 AM
The problem is not that I do not believe in internal power. My aikido instructor and his top students all demonstrate it and I know for a fact it exists.


Don, just for my sake, step outside the box. Throw away preconceived notions and then entertain this little gem. What your aikido instructor is doing is different than the internal stuff we're talking about. Now, think about that concept. I'm not saying it's true, just think about it.


My problem is that nobody can teach it to me in a way that makes it useful to me. I can't afford to travel the world to build my skill. My experience thus far with ki training has found it basically worthless for what I do (compete and fight). I can drill a guard pass and spar for 2 hours and notice atangible increase in ability. I tried to develop ki for almost 2 years (well I still try every aikido class I take which is admitidly not very often anymore) and to date I am able to think of only one instance where I was able to use internal strength to my advantage, and even then it was only for a few seconds where everything fit. I have not been able to replicate the situation.


Now that you're outside the box. Think about internal power that can be taught where you'll see some results in months not years. And you'll see some results in competing and fighting, not just static drills. Since we're outside the box, think about aikido "ki" not being the same as the internal stuff we're talking about.


However, two things always show up in my mind.

A) My teacher and his top students have trained for many years. My teacher has trained for as long as I have been alive. His top students are going on a decade. Even then I doubt if his students can demonstrate in sparing good internal skills. I know my instructor can, I can feel it when I attempt to resist a technique. I do not have decades of time to spend to learn a skill. I do not want to be a unmovable master at 50 or 60. I want to be successful now while I'm young and can enjoy the success of being young and competitive. This means I need to see tangible benefit in months, not years, the same way I see with my judo and bjj training. So far my personal experience has not shown me this. This is compounded by the fact that the training paradigm does not allow me to test the limits of internal strength and remain respectful. This means i can not see if the strength they develop is really any more powerful then what my bjj and judo instructor do to me.


Well, I've seen skill levels between months and years and let me say that, yes, there is a progression level, and yes, it can show up at months training, not years. Not only that, but it can be used in an "alive" environment. And, yes, internal training will allow you to test the limits. But, to understand all this, you have to understand that what aikido "ki" is taught as doesn't necessarily equate to internal skills. Not saying this is the case all the time, but I know it's the case for some.


Both of these issues is compounded with the fact that there is an argument on what is the real internal training. I do not have this with judo or bjj. There is no one saying "You can't train with the usjf, they don't' have the real judo." So I know I'm getting quality training. With internal skills, I do not have this same ability. To my knowledge there is no one in this area who can teach me these skills in a short time, and show me how to incorporate them into my bjj and judo.

So in short, its a neat physics trick. I can see how it could be useful if I could find someone to teach it and train it in a way that is worth while. However, I do not think it is feasible to spend time on until I at least have a bjj brown belt around my waist. So basically once I develop the limits of what they are teaching me, then it might be worth while to see something more. Unless a ki master moves into my city and lays the smack down on me.

Again, throw out all your ideas of "ki" and entertain some new thoughts on the matter. Don't equate it with what you know, but rather look at it in a new light as something that is completely different. Reread all the posts in that frame of mind. Then focus on Dan's posts about how he trained and then used it in a "live" environment to test it out.

Personally, I don't equate this with "ki" (as in the good ole Aikido Ki) at all. Unbendable arm stuff? This ain't it. This stuff is internal body structure and pathways.

IMO,
Mark

Mark Jakabcsin
04-03-2007, 10:43 AM
However, I do not think it is feasible to spend time on until I at least have a bjj brown belt around my waist. So basically once I develop the limits of what they are teaching me, then it might be worth while to see something more. Unless a ki master moves into my city and lays the smack down on me.

Don,
If this is your view then why are you wasting bandwidth and your time on this thread? Basically you have said nothing more than 'it might be useful but I am happy with what I am doing and I am unwilling to sacrifice the time and effort to go see what internal training is about.' All of that is fine, it's your training and you need to be the one to make the decision. I simply do not understand why, after making the decision, you continue to post and hang around. Isn't the logical thing, to move on and spend you effort, mental as well as physical, supporting your training decision?

MJ

Upyu
04-03-2007, 10:51 AM
The problem is not that I do not believe in internal power. My aikido instructor and his top students all demonstrate it and I know for a fact it exists. My problem is that nobody can teach it to me in a way that makes it useful to me. I can't afford to travel the world to build my skill. My experience thus far with ki training has found it basically worthless for what I do (compete and fight). I can drill a guard pass and spar for 2 hours and notice atangible increase in ability. I tried to develop ki for almost 2 years (well I still try every aikido class I take which is admitidly not very often anymore) and to date I am able to think of only one instance where I was able to use internal strength to my advantage, and even then it was only for a few seconds where everything fit. I have not been able to replicate the situation.<snip>

Unless a ki master moves into my city and lays the smack down on me.

Don to be frank...if you can't develop these skills in a short time and be able to use them in the "a1iVE" environment, then yeah I agree, it would be pretty worthless.

Thing is, I was able to use these skills and apply them/notice a significant difference in sparring within two years. So my only guess is that (assuming your teacher is teaching ki skills)
a) his training regimine sucks ass at developing these things in the body
b) maybe you aren't committing to whatever daily training is required to figure out this stuff.

Its been mentioned before that you have to fundamentally change the way you move in daily life. How you walk, run, open a door, open a bottle, jump EVERYTHING quite literally has to change.

Anyways, it's not a slam on you.
I've been in another system (not JMA) where I saw some students get it, but other not get it as much (myself included initially). Once you get on track with the right training regimine you should see tangible or large increases in whatever you can do currently. (Actually it should directly affect your ground game within 6 months)

If Ark ever makes it out to the east coast I'd encourage you to drop by. I can guarantee at least the developmental exercises won't leave you with any doubt as to what you're "developing" :D

Ecosamurai
04-03-2007, 11:00 AM
Personally, I don't equate this with "ki" (as in the good ole Aikido Ki) at all. Unbendable arm stuff? This ain't it. This stuff is internal body structure and pathways.

IMO,
Mark

Actually, unbendable arm is all about body structure and pathways. While you're out of your box try to consider that good ole aikido ki might actually be the same thing as the stuff you're talking about. ;)

IMHO if it's not the exactly same it's really similar.

Mike

Haowen Chan
04-03-2007, 11:11 AM
Actually, unbendable arm is all about body structure and pathways. While you're out of your box try to consider that good ole aikido ki might actually be the same thing as the stuff you're talking about. ;)

IMHO if it's not the exactly same it's really similar.

Mike

Yes, I think there maybe there are aspects to properly instructed ki-soc training that are missing out on this thread so focused on martial effectiveness.

If Aunkai produces the same martial results in years as Ki-development does in decades, there's probably some kind of tradeoff somewhere. Akuzawa is awesome but Koichi Tohei sensei is no dunce.

I haven't trained in both (yet!) so I can't say what the tradeoff is though. Offhand the first theory that comes to mind is that Aunkai is very focused on martial effectiveness while Ki-Soc is more concerned with health applications, coming from shinshintoitsu-do and all that.

Ecosamurai
04-03-2007, 11:16 AM
Yes, I think there maybe there are aspects to properly instructed ki-soc training that are missing out on this thread so focused on martial effectiveness.

If Aunkai produces the same martial results in years as Ki-development does in decades, there's probably some kind of tradeoff somewhere. Akuzawa is awesome but Koichi Tohei sensei is no dunce.

I haven't trained in both (yet!) so I can't say what the tradeoff is though. Offhand the first theory that comes to mind is that Aunkai is very focused on martial effectiveness while Ki-Soc is more concerned with health applications, coming from shinshintoitsu-do and all that.

Which is why I'm interested in these conversations. I want to know if there is a quicker way to do the things I already can do after 10 years (can I teach my students to do it in 2?) I would hope so, it would be great. Plus. I don't want to spend a lifetime chasing something I could get in a matter of years.

Incidentally Tohei said that it shouldn't take people a long time to acquire these skills as it only took him maybe a year (can't remember the exact quote, will look for it).

Mike

MM
04-03-2007, 11:58 AM
Actually, unbendable arm is all about body structure and pathways. While you're out of your box try to consider that good ole aikido ki might actually be the same thing as the stuff you're talking about. ;)

IMHO if it's not the exactly same it's really similar.

Mike

Well, I was trying to make a point with Don. And I also prefaced things by saying that it wasn't necessarily true. Beyond that, I have seen, done, and felt aikido "ki" unbendable arm and it ain't even close to the internal stuff I'm talking about. The stuff I saw doesn't even compare to the body structure at all. The pathways might be, oh, .01% close to it. Might. And even if you somehow manage to get the pathways working correctly, you're only doing 1/1000th of the whole internal skillset. (Yeah, the numbers are guesses.)

Mark

Ecosamurai
04-03-2007, 12:16 PM
Well, I was trying to make a point with Don. And I also prefaced things by saying that it wasn't necessarily true. Beyond that, I have seen, done, and felt aikido "ki" unbendable arm and it ain't even close to the internal stuff I'm talking about. The stuff I saw doesn't even compare to the body structure at all. The pathways might be, oh, .01% close to it. Might. And even if you somehow manage to get the pathways working correctly, you're only doing 1/1000th of the whole internal skillset. (Yeah, the numbers are guesses.)

Mark

I suppose that would depend on where you saw and felt it really. Like I said, there's no real way to be certain if discussing it on the internet, but I have a feeling you just haven't seen the really good ki stuff. Did your experience with the unbendable arm involve the tester holding your fingertips and moving them? Did it involve a fake or hesitation before the test was applied? If not then you've probably only seen the baby level stuff if I had to guess. Something you teach beginers in about 5 minutes usually. I could of course be wrong in my guess, and unbendable arm is only one of the many different ki tests used to develop internal power.

Here's another ki test, have a play with it, next time you visit Dan ask him to help you with it if you like (I'm sure he could probably do it based on what I've read around here. Just make sure you tell us about it afterwards!). Have you ever tried standing on one leg, holding out your wrist and letting someone grab said wrist and push or pull it? While they do this you of course aren't supposed to move or hop in anyway but are supposed to stay put. Your wrist isn't supposed to wobble around either :)

The common misconception's you tend to find people have about ki development exercises usually arise because they've only seen the basic levels and they aren't that impressed. Then they leave and go and find other people to train with, and when they talk about 'ki' you tend to hear them saying things like "oh yeah unbendable arm. It's not really impressive is it? Been there done that" when in fact they've usually only seen beginner levels of the exercises. That's just my impression of course.

YMMV

Mike

Tim Mailloux
04-03-2007, 12:56 PM
Here's another ki test, have a play with it, next time you visit Dan ask him to help you with it if you like (I'm sure he could probably do it based on what I've read around here. Just make sure you tell us about it afterwards!). Have you ever tried standing on one leg, holding out your wrist and letting someone grab said wrist and push or pull it? While they do this you of course aren't supposed to move or hop in anyway but are supposed to stay put. Your wrist isn't supposed to wobble around either :)
YMMV

Mike

Dan did somthing like that with me. He stood there on one leg and let me push / pull any part of his body (hands, arms, torso) in any direction I saw fit. He didn't budge. Yet while he was still on one leg, and i was still pushing / pulling with all my might, he sent my flying backwards 5 feet out of the blue.

Tom Fish
04-03-2007, 01:09 PM
I have practiced martial arts for many years. When I was younger and competing in Judo, I studied and worked to compete effectively. I have not been to a competition since 1981. I still practice, but with a different focus. I began studying Aikido to improve my Judo, Jyodo to improve my Aikido, Tai-Chi to improve everything else. My focus is to learn about and improve all of these things. I practice for the sheer fun of it and to acquire as much skill as I can. Now for the point I'm so convolutededly making my way to. If I had known about the internal aspects years ago, I think they would have added a whole new dimension to what I've been able to learn. These skills may not be required to become a good competitor in any martial art but it seems that they can help make your skills a lot more effective. With that being said, as long as I'm interested in learning and training, I have time to research and hopefully develope these internal skills. For those who are not interested, that's alright, as long as your training and learning something, it's all good. Just don't forget that there is always more to learn. A closed mind never serves your needs. Look forward with the idea that there is always more out there. Enjoy the moment and keep on going.
Best Regards
Tom

DonMagee
04-03-2007, 01:13 PM
I

Here's another ki test, have a play with it, next time you visit Dan ask him to help you with it if you like (I'm sure he could probably do it based on what I've read around here. Just make sure you tell us about it afterwards!). Have you ever tried standing on one leg, holding out your wrist and letting someone grab said wrist and push or pull it? While they do this you of course aren't supposed to move or hop in anyway but are supposed to stay put. Your wrist isn't supposed to wobble around either :)
YMMV

Mike

My aikido instructor has done this a few times. Its a neat trick.

As for why i'm posting on this thread. It is simple, I'm giving my reasoning and thoughts and experience so others can tell me things I might not of thought of and maybe, just maybe, I can learn something. I'm sorry if you all want to sit around and talk about how great ki is, but I personally want to learn something.

Ecosamurai
04-03-2007, 01:20 PM
Dan did somthing like that with me. He stood there on one leg and let me push / pull any part of his body (hands, arms, torso) in any direction I saw fit. He didn't budge. Yet while he was still on one leg, and i was still pushing / pulling with all my might, he sent my flying backwards 5 feet out of the blue.

Fun isn't it :D Even more fun when you learn how to do it :D

Unfortunately these descriptions, all the way from descriptions of Takeda, to Ueshiba to Dan rarely describe how you got sent back 5' Do hips move? Arms? Something has to move or it's telekinesis. That's the problem with talking about it instead of being there and doing it sadly.

Mike

Tim Mailloux
04-03-2007, 02:15 PM
Fun isn't it :D Even more fun when you learn how to do it :D

Unfortunately these descriptions, all the way from descriptions of Takeda, to Ueshiba to Dan rarely describe how you got sent back 5' Do hips move? Arms? Something has to move or it's telekinesis. That's the problem with talking about it instead of being there and doing it sadly.

Mike

That is a good question, not sure what moved when somone does this. All I know is that I cannot see any movement. Once Dan did this to me for a demonstration to the group. This time both his feet were on the ground and he placed both his hands on my chest with his arms fully extended and feet stationary. Then with no movement I could see, he sent me flying backwards atleast 10 feet. I didn't fall, but I wasn't close from it. It felt like I was hit by a truck. The weekend before he did the same thing to me, but that time there was a wall about 5 to 6 feet behind me. Not only did Dan "run me over" with his internal push/punch (not sure what to call it), but I then slammed into the wall which didn't feel much better.

FWIW, I am no small guy. 6'-1", 195lbs and pretty solid to boot.

Ecosamurai
04-03-2007, 02:45 PM
That is a good question, not sure what moved when somone does this. All I know is that I cannot see any movement. Once Dan did this to me for a demonstration to the group. This time both his feet were on the ground and he placed both his hands on my chest with his arms fully extended and feet stationary. Then with no movement I could see, he sent me flying backwards atleast 10 feet. I didn't fall, but I wasn't close from it. It felt like I was hit by a truck. The weekend before he did the same thing to me, but that time there was a wall about 5 to 6 feet behind me. Not only did Dan "run me over" with his internal push/punch (not sure what to call it), but I then slammed into the wall which didn't feel much better.

FWIW, I am no small guy. 6'-1", 195lbs and pretty solid to boot.

Difficult to figure out without seeing it. But here's a tip, with his hands on your chest and feet stationary. Watch his hips next time. Tell us what you saw (if anything). If neither his knees, hips or elbows move (and they don't have to move far) then it really is telekinesis and I'm stumped as to what he's doing.

Try looking at this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYlMC6gUoM

watch Akuzawa's hips when the guy is holding his wrists and he moves him. Specifically, look at how his upper body moves in relation to his hips. Those are the sorts of things that move when you do this stuff in my experience.

Mike

kironin
04-03-2007, 03:40 PM
Well, I was trying to make a point with Don. And I also prefaced things by saying that it wasn't necessarily true. Beyond that, I have seen, done, and felt aikido "ki" unbendable arm and it ain't even close to the internal stuff I'm talking about. The stuff I saw doesn't even compare to the body structure at all. The pathways might be, oh, .01% close to it. Might. And even if you somehow manage to get the pathways working correctly, you're only doing 1/1000th of the whole internal skillset. (Yeah, the numbers are guesses.)

Mark

With these comments like these, it tells me you don't know what you think you know. unbendable arm is a baby step that can be taught in two minutes.

Jeremy Hulley
04-03-2007, 04:10 PM
Try looking at this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYlMC6gUoM

watch Akuzawa's hips when the guy is holding his wrists and he moves him. Specifically, look at how his upper body moves in relation to his hips. Those are the sorts of things that move when you do this stuff in my experience.

Mike

There's a both/and point here...In that video there is clearly some hip and torso....Having experienced Ark......He does not need to move his hips to release power.....It has to do with the spine and maintaining and using internal tension...

MM
04-03-2007, 04:38 PM
With these comments like these, it tells me you don't know what you think you know. unbendable arm is a baby step that can be taught in two minutes.

Perhaps. The Internet is full of people who don't know what they think they know. And people who don't know what they think they know of other people. I only know what I know now and that may change tomorrow. I may be right or wrong at any point in time. I fail over and over again in my training, but I'm still there doing it with like minded people and having fun at times, and hard work at others. That's more important to me than what people think of me on the Internet.

YMMV,
Mark

Ecosamurai
04-03-2007, 05:34 PM
There's a both/and point here...In that video there is clearly some hip and torso....Having experienced Ark......He does not need to move his hips to release power.....It has to do with the spine and maintaining and using internal tension...

Actually I was just pointing to an example of what I was talking about and I happened to have seen him do it in that vid not more than 30 min earlier. I wasn't intending to comment on everything he does, just that example. Incidentally he does have to move something to release power or it's telekinesis. I referenced that vid because it was about how his hips moved in relation to his upper body that was important, it showed where the movement he made started from within his body (hips/centre probably lower than that but it first becomes visible in that clip with his hips).

The comments you and others make about internal tension are interesting because they show you that what he is doing is subtly different from what Tohei style stuff is about i.e. relax completely, meaning internal tension = bad. That said however the two skills are related and if you can do one you can do the other IMO. I know that a lot of what I've seen on the vids of Akuzawa I can do to some extent (obviously it's impossible to tell exactly without being there and feeling it) but they appear to be subtly different uses of the power and internal skills you develop with Tohei style mind and body training i.e. same stuff slightly different application and emphasis. Which brings me back to the question I keep asking myself. Is fajin needed to effectively execute aikido waza? Do you actually need to be able to explosively release power? I think if you watch Tohei and the watch the founder one of the differences is fthat. Tohei tends not to release power explosively (as described elsewhere on these foums). You see him do it sometimes but not often.

It's especially obvious if you watch the founder performing the rowing exercise in the aikidojournal footage, Terry Dobson is standing opposite him IIRC. Then watch Tohei doing the same exercise. A few years ago I was watching this clip whilst my teacher was here visiting and we talked about it. He said of O Sensei's performance of the exercise "It's tension, Tohei doesn't do it that way."

IMO you tend not to see this explosive release of power in ki aikido. But that makes sense does it not? The aim of aikido is to utilise the attackers power and throw them away or restrain them, in order to do this you must have a coordinated mind and body which is calm and relaxed. Why would you need to generate your own power when your partner is doing it for you? I've often thought that this explains a lot of the differences you see between Tohei and O Sensei. I've just never been able to understand why it worked out that way.

Regards

Mike

Mike Sigman
04-03-2007, 05:59 PM
The comments you and others make about internal tension are interesting because they show you that what he is doing is subtly different from what Tohei style stuff is about i.e. relax completely, meaning internal tension = bad. That said however the two skills are related and if you can do one you can do the other IMO. I know that a lot of what I've seen on the vids of Akuzawa I can do to some extent (obviously it's impossible to tell exactly without being there and feeling it) but they appear to be subtly different uses of the power and internal skills you develop with Tohei style mind and body training i.e. same stuff slightly different application and emphasis. Exactly... there is a wide range of ways to do these things and an Aikido practitioner has to be somewhat clear that karate's way of training is not necessarily Aikido's way of training these skills, and so on Which brings me back to the question I keep asking myself. Is fajin needed to effectively execute aikido waza? Do you actually need to be able to explosively release power? I think if you watch Tohei and the watch the founder one of the differences is fthat. Tohei tends not to release power explosively (as described elsewhere on these foums). You see him do it sometimes but not often.

It's especially obvious if you watch the founder performing the rowing exercise in the aikidojournal footage, Terry Dobson is standing opposite him IIRC. Then watch Tohei doing the same exercise. A few years ago I was watching this clip whilst my teacher was here visiting and we talked about it. He said of O Sensei's performance of the exercise "It's tension, Tohei doesn't do it that way."

IMO you tend not to see this explosive release of power in ki aikido. But that makes sense does it not? The aim of aikido is to utilise the attackers power and throw them away or restrain them, in order to do this you must have a coordinated mind and body which is calm and relaxed. Why would you need to generate your own power when your partner is doing it for you? I've often thought that this explains a lot of the differences you see between Tohei and O Sensei. I've just never been able to understand why it worked out that way.That's a good observation. I mentioned that same evidence of explosive power usage by O-Sensei, a year or so ago (maybe it was on Aikido Journal, though). It brings up a lot of thoughts. First of all, Ueshiba appears to be capable of *some level* of explosive power (I don't want to get into exactly what that level is, since it's a side-issue). Since Ueshiba didn't really teach much (that we know of..... we could be wrong!) of the ki/kokyu skills, the fact that he didn't appear to teach the higher levels of those skills should be no big surprise. Personally, I'd be careful to note that Ueshiba is the standard for a martial art called "Aikido", not Tohei. If Ueshiba had some ability at power-release skills, then that indicates power-releases are a part of Aikido. However, I think we're way ahead of ourselves since it's obvious (and archived) that a huge percentage of Aikido yudansha aren't even sure if ki/kokyu skills apply to Aikido. :)

In terms of Ueshiba using power-release skills and Tohei not using them, let me venture a comment reflecting my opinion: I think Tohei's "soft" approach to ki development is correct and that Ueshiba's approach was closer to Tohei's than it was to Akuzawa's approach..... but it has to be understood that the approaches and permutations of these skills cover a pretty broad spectrum. My opinion is that it's important to look at the approach that Ueshiba used and back-engineer into a close approximation of that approach, even if you get your "foot in the door" knowledge from a tenser approach.

Insightful post, Mike.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

statisticool
04-03-2007, 06:00 PM
You have a chance to feel this stuff, ...


Again, what does that have to do with not seeing internal gurus win UFC-ish competitions with their superior movement?

Justin

statisticool
04-03-2007, 06:03 PM
My purpose of training is not to compete in MMA, I am way too old for that.


And I typcially always say UFC-ish event, considering those are probably the pinnacle of aggressoid competitions, and if one wins there one can probably win anywhere, but that can be relaxed a bit, since a lot of the internal gurus are claiming that one of their many skills is that they cannot be pushed over or thrown, they could compete in a less hazardous environment where throws are involved, like judo, sumo, or taijiquan push hands.

Justin

statisticool
04-03-2007, 06:09 PM
Think about internal power that can be taught where you'll see some results in months not years. And you'll see some results in competing and fighting, not just static drills.


Except we don't seem to see results from in competing and fighting, at least not going by the largest fighting organizations in the world (UFC, Pride, etc.).

Justin

statisticool
04-03-2007, 06:14 PM
He stood there on one leg and let me push / pull any part of his body (hands, arms, torso) in any direction I saw fit. He didn't budge. Yet while he was still on one leg, and i was still pushing / pulling with all my might, he sent my flying backwards 5 feet out of the blue.

Sounds cool! We'd love to see the video of that event so we can get an objective look at the parameters in which the situation took place.

Justin

Ecosamurai
04-03-2007, 06:36 PM
Insightful post, Mike.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

lol, thanks. I do sometimes know what I'm talking about I hope, pain in the backside that I can be (Road-rage I've heard of. Can you get web-rage?).

The credit for the insight goes to my teacher not me. I remarked to him that Tohei and Ueshiba looked different, he explained why to me. It's not the first time I've mentioned it here though. Maybe it got lost in the noise of the web-rage. Shame cos I should know better really <sigh>....

Mike

Cady Goldfield
04-03-2007, 07:28 PM
deleted double post

Cady Goldfield
04-03-2007, 07:39 PM
Persistent questioning about why internal skills aren't seen in UFC and Pride do prompt some musings about when we will see this stuff, if ever, in the commercial fight ring. I'm guessing it may be a little while before the stuff shows up in UFC or becomes a trend in the professional fighting universe. Such things have been kept closely guarded for centuries, and only with the Internet, and particularly due to Western curiosity in tandem with the Internet, is the subject of genuine internal skills becoming known to a wider circle now. And even so, that circle is a drop in the bucket of world population. Few know about or care about the existence of this stuff in the first place; the martial arts world itself is insignificant in the face of the general human population! (Despite some of us thinking that the sun orbits around our particular and peculiar interest... ;) )

Besides few knowing that this stuff even exists, UFC-type bangers usually seem to want something they can put into their repertoire quickly. A sophisticated and refined grasp of internal skills, and their successful integration into a fighting system, are the slower road of the "artiste," not the commercial fightring-banger who wants and needs them "yesterday." The idea of conditioning for an unnatural set of internal movements to effect power is too alien to most, and particularly to those who have spent their professional and martial lives focused on the more obvious uses of muscle and gross motor movement.

Perhaps most of all, there is the difficulty of finding a teacher who has those skills and is willing to teach them, even if you do know that such skills exist. You'd have to be highly motivated to find a place to learn them, and that would, of course, come after being alerted to their existence in the first place and believing that they were worth pursuing to add juice to your game. But, the cat is out of the bag, and it's bound to find its way into the commercial bang-and-roll arena, but not overnight. Eventually, if it isn't already happening, one or more of the more insightful fighters will train and have the skills.

In the meantime, everyone should go to the video/dvd store and rent Jackie Chan's The Big Brawl. There are no internal skills whatsoever demonstrated there, but it's one of my favorite predecessors to the UFC concept. :D

eyrie
04-04-2007, 02:30 AM
I kinda speed read some posts, and if someone has already mentioned it, I apologize in advance....

But I don't recall anyone mentioning anything about the difference between developing qi for health purposes and qi for martial purposes - which I presume is the question being asked - which is a more effective means of developing qi for martial purposes. Sorry, should I say "ki"? :D

Even though it is the same thing, i.e. "ki", and based on the same principles, I don't think it's exactly the same thing in terms of martial usage and application. Or is it?

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable would care to comment?

Ecosamurai
04-04-2007, 06:45 AM
I kinda speed read some posts, and if someone has already mentioned it, I apologize in advance....

But I don't recall anyone mentioning anything about the difference between developing qi for health purposes and qi for martial purposes - which I presume is the question being asked - which is a more effective means of developing qi for martial purposes. Sorry, should I say "ki"? :D

Even though it is the same thing, i.e. "ki", and based on the same principles, I don't think it's exactly the same thing in terms of martial usage and application. Or is it?

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable would care to comment?

Dunno about being more knowledgable but I'll give it a go, qi and ki are exactly the same thing IMO. Developing it for martial purposes also improves your health I think. If you try developing it for purely health purposes you're likely to end up with geriatric oriental dancing that you sometimes see people doing in parks. In other words I don't think you can properly understand a lot of this stuff when not physically interacting with a partner or teacher and martial applications tend to push you to improve yourself more (it hurts when you get it wrong is pretty good motivation!).

As I said previously, ki aikido has a systematized curriculum and teaching methodology that is fairly standard accross the board, it was expressly designed by Koichi tohei for transmission of ki principles. Tai Chi in my experience basically depends on the instructor you find, there is no set method for teaching it and it varies from teacher to teacher as to how (and if) they do it. It is entirely possible that Tai Chi is a far superieor method but just less consistantly taught, whereas if you walk into any ki soc derived dojo you'll see the same exercises being used and the same teaching theory (well very similar at least).


Regards

Mike

DonMagee
04-04-2007, 06:58 AM
And I typcially always say UFC-ish event, considering those are probably the pinnacle of aggressoid competitions, and if one wins there one can probably win anywhere, but that can be relaxed a bit, since a lot of the internal gurus are claiming that one of their many skills is that they cannot be pushed over or thrown, they could compete in a less hazardous environment where throws are involved, like judo, sumo, or taijiquan push hands.

Justin

Actually, I think it makes sense to see this showing up in judo. A judo guy who can't be thrown at all would be hard to miss. It would be funny to see a guy win the olympics and then say he never trained judo, it was all internal strength.

Upyu
04-04-2007, 07:19 AM
Actually, I think it makes sense to see this showing up in judo. A judo guy who can't be thrown at all would be hard to miss. It would be funny to see a guy win the olympics and then say he never trained judo, it was all internal strength.
More likely that they'd penalize you for being too "passive." I competed in a Judo comp back in college, at the time I was doing Iliqchuan, and had a tiny tiny grasp on structure. Combine that with Sam's liking to always have "hands on top" I used the sticking hands he drilled into us to keep the other guy from getting a grip on me...surprise surprise I got warned for "stalling" lol. The kid from the other camp was one of Jason Morris's students and was pretty frustrated that he couldn't get a grip to execute a clean throw.

DH
04-04-2007, 08:35 AM
Isn't it odd that Aikidoka have unilaterally failed to represent their art in any substative way in BJJ or MMA or Judo bouts. Yet defend their own arts validity... while being unable to represent.
Yet these same men, here, now, are rather weakly asking those with internal skills to do the very same thing- they cannot do. Further using it as a measure of valdity or standard for that they themsleves cannot manage to meet.
What I have found truly odd is that many here have openly denegrated those who use their skills agianst "aikidoka" as being no real measure at all?
Here on Aikiweb!!
I guess that's very telling logic

DH
04-04-2007, 08:39 AM
Internals in more demanding venues
I've responded to this stuff before. Rob has as well. We have repeatedly told of meeting with Judoka, Bjjers, MMAers, Karateka etc etc. Addressed the very same questions and doubts; It wasn't believed then nor will it be here. To respond to men who have read it before and then see them ask the same questions over and over is evidence enough. Its troling. And it cuts to the very heart of the matter. In the established Martial arts-there is no real interest in the truth.
Sinclair wrote"
It's difficult to get a man to understand something, if his salary is based on his not understandning it.

So it is here.The arts are ruled by men with a vested interest-not necessarily money or salary-to not believe something they do not understand.
Years ago men were sucked into believing the clap trap handed to them by Martial teachers. That the protectionism, in-house isolated training, single style training method and twenty years of repeating the kata would produce......something.
Then the UFC and pride
No one was willing to believe that in a few years training time-young men could be trained to virtually take these teachers apart.
It was unthinkable.
It changed the way men thought about the "twenty year man" Asian model.

Now we have internal skills. A very small hitherto unknown group of men from the Asian arts have become independant. They are equipped, with skills of a type that most in the arts have no real knowledge of and cannot address with their arts skills. Moreover these internal artists are choosing to pursue it in more modern combative forms. And they have just begun to openly show-most of those in the conventional arts lack the skills to handle the internal knowledge,and now a few are combining it with MMA.
It is unthinkable.;)

There are interesting days ahead

Haowen Chan
04-04-2007, 09:16 AM
I kinda speed read some posts, and if someone has already mentioned it, I apologize in advance....

But I don't recall anyone mentioning anything about the difference between developing qi for health purposes and qi for martial purposes - which I presume is the question being asked - which is a more effective means of developing qi for martial purposes. Sorry, should I say "ki"? :D

Even though it is the same thing, i.e. "ki", and based on the same principles, I don't think it's exactly the same thing in terms of martial usage and application. Or is it?

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable would care to comment?

Mikes Sigman had a brief say here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=164980&highlight=organs#post164980

He says its the same kind of animal.

I think a common theory is that there are different variations of the way you train ki that will yield somewhat different results qualitatively (e.g. original yoga - completely nonmartial example). But it's all based on the same basic phenomena of activating muscles and fascia (and stuff???) deep inside the body that are not normally directly used in untrained people.

Ecosamurai
04-04-2007, 09:41 AM
Now we have internal skills. A very small hitherto unknown group of men from the Asian arts have become independant. They are equipped, with skills of a type that most in the arts have no real knowledge of and cannot address with their arts skills. Moreover these internal artists are choosing to pursue it in more modern combative forms. And they have just begun to openly show-most of those in the conventional arts lack the skills to handle the internal knowledge,and now a few are combining it with MMA.
It is unthinkable.;)

There are interesting days ahead

Personally I've never cared less about competition, UFC, whatever, found it interesting at first then just wasn't anymore. If someone wants to compete, fine, I don't. I also don't think you need to fight in a ring to prove yourself unless you have self-esteem issues. I don't need to be tested that way, life is enough of a test in itself IMO.

However, if I've interpreted it right the above statement is simply incorrect: "Now we have internal skills" ? They have been a part of aikido since it's beginning and have been actively taught for 50 years at least. Are you referring to MMA guys now having internal skills? When you say 'using it in more modern combative forms', that might be new though. On the other hand there is no reason to assume that modern combative forms are superior to older ones, they're just different. MMA will one day be a TMA, like it or not it will happen. Think about how much UFC has changed since the beginning. You might say that MMA will re-invent itself and constantly change to meet the new challenges. Fine. I can't think of anything more important than doing that, which is why I do that with my aikido.

All arts are designed to be fit for purpose, aikido's purpose as stated by it's founder is "the true victory of self-mastery" it isn't about winning fights in competitions. Aikido waza work well in most self-defense situations for most people most of the time (I know a guy who saved himself from getting stabbed with 6 months of aikido training, fortunately for him the muggers weren't well trained MMA/UFC warriors, but how many muggers are?). Aikido waza might not be too great in the ring but I'm not getting in the ring am I? I'm also not stupid enough to offer my wrist to someone who comes up to me in a bar and decides he doesn't like my face. Why would I do that? Wrist holds are training tools for learning principles (most especially internal ones). I don't have a sword in my belt when I walk down the street so why would I expect someone to grab my wrist to stop me from using a sword I don't have? Give some credit to common sense. Even aikidoka have it after all ;)

Mike

Cady Goldfield
04-04-2007, 10:02 AM
MMA will one day be a TMA, like it or not it will happen.

MMA already IS a "TMA." ;) There have always been MMA, ever since mankind figured out he could bean his enemy with a rock, pike him with a pointed stick AND kick him in the head.

With the refinement of fighting arts over the past several thousand years, the means have gotten more sophisticated, but virtually NO new "pure" art ever arose just of itself, from a vacuum; it was the product of an innovator who took his inspiration from a variety of sources (the sum of which we can call "MMA"). MMA is the way of the open-minded innovator who wants only to be as effective as he can be as a fighter. This is not necessarily for commercial purposes -- it is a discipline that is also pursued purely as "art," just like aikido or any other system. It's just not institutional in structure or approach.

We need to be more specific about what's being referred to when you say "MMA." People are equating it with a very recent, Western, televised form of commercial fighting sport in which fighters mix it up with a little grappling, a little p/k, etc. When you talk about the commercial ring and whatever skills are tailored for that milieu, that's a somewhat different critter, IMO. If that is the new trend, then some other term needs to be made up to keep this separate from the age-old tradition of drawing from multiple sources of martial inspiration to tailor one's highly personal system of bujutsu.

Ecosamurai
04-04-2007, 10:22 AM
MMA will one day be a TMA, like it or not it will happen.

MMA already IS a "TMA." ;) There have always been MMA, ever since mankind figured out he could bean his enemy with a rock, pike him with a pointed stick AND kick him in the head.

Fair enough. I don't think it's quite that simple and allow me to explain why. I may be doing MMA as an idea an injustice.

If you replace MMA for a second with the phrase 'keeping it real' then there are plenty of people in the aikido world who do that or at least try to. Sometimes they get stuck by the no-competition idea and have to find excuses as to why they don't enter them and you often hear 'my art is too deadly' or whatever. I've never said anything like that and never will. IMO If you know what you're doing then you know how to 'keep it real' without going to competitions or whatever, so when people ask me why I don't got to competitons I say "I don't care to play at being tough". Works for me ;)

I dislike the reality of the MMA approach when combined with competiton, not because I don't think that 'keeping it real' is a good idea but because whenever I've seen people who follow, or attempt to follow this idea in combination with competition they cherry-pick techniques that they think will work for a specific set of rules in the ring and often throw out perfectly good and worthwhile things because they have some undefined criteria of 'what works'.

I met a guy who brazenly claimed his UFC whatever cherry-picking was far superior to aikido and claimed that aikido wristlocks were pointless and 'ineffective', he nearly screamed when I put a nikyo on him. Now that's an isolated case but the reason I mention it is because it demonstrates the weakness of the idea of combining MMA with competition IMO. How do you define 'effective'?

What if I took my sword into the ring? Is the other guy gonna be allowed to bring one? Isn't that just kendo or fencing? What if he brings a gun and I bring a bigger gun? Surely the most effective MA is nuclear war?

YMMV

Mike

Kevin Leavitt
04-04-2007, 02:57 PM
To add to the discussion concerning judo/bjj and aikido.

This is difficult to discuss as it requires hands on to really discuss the concept...

I think UFC, BJJ, and Judo type events do teach us a great deal about what works and does not work in a fight.

That said, we must be careful as thinking this represents the totality of fighting spectrum.

As Rob discusses getting called for passiveness...I agree.

It is one of my frustrations in dealing with BJJ when competing.

I should post the video of my fight in the European BJJ Open that I lost. I got very frustrated because the guy I was fighting would not fight me, he danced around, would not take risk. Ref broke up the fight and told us to fight 4 minutes of a 5 minute fight wasted dancing around. So, being the warrior that I am..I said screw it and started shoving him around the flow trying to off balance, shot, he sprawled, passed my guard, and won.

Anyway, when teaching closing the distance and fighting in my combatives class I spend time discussing the fact that you have to know why you are fighting, or not fighting. You don't always want to commit, you may want to disengage...or be passive...it depends.

There is much that goes on in fighting and we must be careful to assume that training paradigms don't overtake us.

KIT
04-04-2007, 03:10 PM
Nah, Cady, MMA will take a little longer to become TMA. Its just now becoming the new "Taebo," so it will take a little while.

Internals in more demanding venues
I've responded to this stuff before. Rob has as well. We have repeatedly told of meeting with Judoka, Bjjers, MMAers, Karateka etc etc.

It's difficult to get a man to understand something, if his salary is based on his not understandning it.



Nah, more like its difficult for Judo, BJJ, MMA guys to understand exactly whom you have "met," and whether they are a worthy comparison, when you never give a name, you don't appear on any forum devoted to the aforementioned arts talking about them and "what you can do" to them there, and the only people who seem to be talking about meeting you are aikidoka who admittedly don't train in MMA.

As the former are based in performance biased training methodologies, they want to see it work against a proven exponent of MMA (or one of its base methods) before you are given much credence.

Heck, you don't even have to do it personally - just be the primary coach of a guy who can be successful at it.

Matt Hume doesn't really fight MMA, but he is a universally respected coach and judge. Coincidentally, he's in Seattle of all places. You should drop by and share your thoughts with them next time you are in town....

...or in Olympia with Jeff Monson's American Top Team..

..or come on down to Portland - you can stay at my place free of charge (other than showing me your stuff.)

I know guys from Quest's fight team and am training at an Enson Inoue affiliated gym now - Enson is here every other month or so. If I told them you had a new way of training MMA that would make it so that they could not be taken down they would all LOVE to meet you in person, of that you can be sure.

You or your guys don't have to go against the monsters - just the guys doing reasonably well in local comps.

One would think you would jump at the chance to introduce a training methodology such as this if you are being that successful with it.

Years ago men were sucked into believing the clap trap handed to them by Martial teachers. That the protectionism, in-house isolated training, single style training method and twenty years of repeating the kata would produce......something.
Then the UFC and pride
No one was willing to believe that in a few years training time-young men could be trained to virtually take these teachers apart.
It was unthinkable.
It changed the way men thought about the "twenty year man" Asian model.

Good point. Though the critical difference is in those young men are putting their skills and their bodies on the line, in public, and proving it, not talking about it on the Internet.

Now we have internal skills. A very small hitherto unknown group of men from the Asian arts have become independant. They are equipped, with skills of a type that most in the arts have no real knowledge of and cannot address with their arts skills. Moreover these internal artists are choosing to pursue it in more modern combative forms. And they have just begun to openly show-most of those in the conventional arts lack the skills to handle the internal knowledge,and now a few are combining it with MMA.
It is unthinkable.;)

There are interesting days ahead

Well, more accurately - it seems a few are combining it with MMA and using it on aikidoka and taiji practitioners. That's like shooting fish in a barrel. Others, and their students, are actually competing with it and being successful. You aren't among them.

There are plenty of guys out there who have never been in a fight and never been in a tactical operation who teach all kinds of goofy crap to the non-tactical people who eat it up.

All the while the real fighters and operators are laughing.

I think for some of us on this thread, its again not about whether it can work - its whether you can make it work in any worthwhile way, against a worthwhile performance measure (i.e. a recognized skilled fighter in these disciplines), as you repeatedly say you can.

Have you ever even rolled with a BJJ black belt?


I think I'll cross post this link over on Sherdog or BJJ.org and some others and see if anybody there is familiar with you and your stuff. Gotta be someone amongst the Judo, BJJ and MMA guys you have done this to that is on line...

DonMagee
04-04-2007, 03:26 PM
More likely that they'd penalize you for being too "passive." I competed in a Judo comp back in college, at the time I was doing Iliqchuan, and had a tiny tiny grasp on structure. Combine that with Sam's liking to always have "hands on top" I used the sticking hands he drilled into us to keep the other guy from getting a grip on me...surprise surprise I got warned for "stalling" lol. The kid from the other camp was one of Jason Morris's students and was pretty frustrated that he couldn't get a grip to execute a clean throw.

Well, I think its not very useful if you can't use it to engage but only defend. I can defend judo throws basically forever without internal skills. I just don't engage. Its very very very hard to throw someone who doesn't want to engage you. But if you could engage and keep your internal power,now that would be something.

Although there is no rule against stalling in many grappling tournaments. Some tournaments don't even keep score for the first 5 or 10 minutes.

Cady Goldfield
04-04-2007, 06:20 PM
Fair enough. I don't think it's quite that simple and allow me to explain why. I may be doing MMA as an idea an injustice.

If you replace MMA for a second with the phrase 'keeping it real' then there are plenty of people in the aikido world who do that or at least try to. Sometimes they get stuck by the no-competition idea and have to find excuses as to why they don't enter them and you often hear 'my art is too deadly' or whatever. I've never said anything like that and never will. IMO If you know what you're doing then you know how to 'keep it real' without going to competitions or whatever, so when people ask me why I don't got to competitons I say "I don't care to play at being tough". Works for me ;)

I dislike the reality of the MMA approach when combined with competiton, not because I don't think that 'keeping it real' is a good idea but because whenever I've seen people who follow, or attempt to follow this idea in combination with competition they cherry-pick techniques that they think will work for a specific set of rules in the ring and often throw out perfectly good and worthwhile things because they have some undefined criteria of 'what works'.

I met a guy who brazenly claimed his UFC whatever cherry-picking was far superior to aikido and claimed that aikido wristlocks were pointless and 'ineffective', he nearly screamed when I put a nikyo on him. Now that's an isolated case but the reason I mention it is because it demonstrates the weakness of the idea of combining MMA with competition IMO. How do you define 'effective'?

What if I took my sword into the ring? Is the other guy gonna be allowed to bring one? Isn't that just kendo or fencing? What if he brings a gun and I bring a bigger gun? Surely the most effective MA is nuclear war?

YMMV

Mike

Mike H.,

Bringing a nuclear warhead to a streetfight might be overkill on several levels, and probably counterproductive. ;)

As soon as there are rules of engagement, the whole purpose of true MMA goes out the window, IMO. I'm not talkinig about the guys who want to go into a ring and fight a bunch of other guys to make money and earn acclaim, and who "cherrypick" their repertoire to fit the rules of the UFC, Pride or other commercial bout. For them, being "effective" means being the victor in a bout, while working within the rules.

Being effective "outside in the world," means survival, whether it is as the man who vanquishes an attacker and is able to walk away alive and not mortally injured, or is able to prevent the attack from ever occurring, and without harming anyone, by dint of his attitude and brinksmanship, backed up by martial skills that make the attacker think better of his plan.

When I speak of MMA, I am talking about a long history of individuals who have found training within a rarified "pure" art to be too restrictive for gaining the fighting skills they need as individuals to address the martial issues that are very real for them in their "out in the world" milieu. These are people whose chief aim is to develop fighting skills, either because they need to fight as part of their real-life environment, or because they are pursuing martial arts as an intellectual-physical study of some aspect of hoplology, and want to be as authentic in their skills as possible. This approach assumes that there are no rules.

BTW, most of the guys I train with are deeply trained in weapons arts -- the sharp, pointy kinds and long, blunt kinds -- and some train in marksmanship or gunmanship, too. I come from a background of several punch/strike/kick systems and arnis (stick fighting). It's all good; it's even better when combined with other skills rather than being stand-alone. Internal skills are a component of these tool kits that have the potential to augment and boost the effectiveness of virtually all of those martial body skills.

Today's aikido is kind of a special case, IMO, because many aikidoka take Ueshiba's Omoto Kyo philosophy as their driving motivation to practice aikido. The "no competition" part of that is a legitimate part of that belief system. For these people, I don't think it's necessary to be concerned about martial viability. Rather, I see their practice as being a moving meditation that aids in their philosophical study.

However, many people enter an aikido dojo with the idea that they will learn martial skills that will naturally make them able to contend against no-rules fighters and other trained martial artists. They're the ones who need to take a step back from their art and consider whether they are following a path that will provide the tools they seek. For them, exploring kokyu/aiki skills (preferably from their source -- the one that Ueshiba gained his from, but possibly from taiji or other CIMA) would be a step in the right direction. And it wouldn't even be MMA, technically, if those skills were derived from aikido's own root source -- Daito-ryu. ;)

Cady Goldfield
04-04-2007, 06:29 PM
Nah, Cady, MMA will take a little longer to become TMA. Its just now becoming the new "Taebo," so it will take a little while.

Kit,
You apparently didn't read my definition of MMA closely. I ain't talking about the use of "MMA" as a description of the stuff being done in rules-driven UFC bouts. Let's call that latter type, "Mixed Bag Arts" (MBA) instead, okay? ;) "MMA" should be reserved for the ages-old tendency for individuals to experiment with stuff outside-the-box to custom tailor fighting skills to their individual needs.

The -process- is traditional because it is part of the human condition that dates back to the dawn of human creativity. We would have no arts at all, martial or otherwise, without that process. Instead, we would have a bunch of stagnant, stale "Pure" systems that never morph with the times and changes in environment. We'd still be banging on rocks with sticks and blowing into hollow bones, and calling it "music" with that attitude. :D

Kevin Leavitt
04-04-2007, 07:16 PM
Cady wrote:

When I speak of MMA, I am talking about a long history of individuals who have found training within a rarified "pure" art to be too restrictive for gaining the fighting skills they need as individuals to address the martial issues that are very real for them in their "out in the world" milieu. These are people whose chief aim is to develop fighting skills, either because they need to fight as part of their real-life environment, or because they are pursuing martial arts as an intellectual-physical study of some aspect of hoplology, and want to be as authentic in their skills as possible. This approach assumes that there are no rules.

BTW, most of the guys I train with are deeply trained in weapons arts -- the sharp, pointy kinds and long, blunt kinds -- and some train in marksmanship or gunmanship, too. I come from a background of several punch/strike/kick systems and arnis (stick fighting). It's all good; it's even better when combined with other skills rather than being stand-alone. Internal skills are a component of these tool kits that have the potential to augment and boost the effectiveness of virtually all of those martial body skills.



By your definition I fit the mold and the definition of those you talk about using MMA in real life...not in the ring.

I will tell you that I disagree with your opinion on the value of UFC type events as being worthwile as a venue to study effectiveness.

I am qualified and certified at almost every weapons fighitng range in the U.S arsenal from Barrett 50 Cal, M16/M4, M9, M249, M2, knifes, sticks, and empty handed martial arts. Also including most classes of common explosives used in the military.

I am probably about as well rounded of a warrior who trains soldiers to use ranges of fighting. We have invested many dollars, much research and collect many experiences of people that use this stuff in combat.

We see much value in MMA as defined by UFC..for what it can teach us about close fighting.

It does not discount what Mike, Rob, and Dan discuss in MA at all.

However, your logic concerning UFC as being too limited to test real martial effectiveness in an empty handed environment is simply incorrect in mine, and many of our soldiers experiences.

Kit is a SWAT member I believe. He is saying the same thing.

However...if you don't believe it...then find yourself even a B level MMA sport fighter and tell him to drop all the rules and then fight him and tell me what you think of how limited and short his skills are.

I am not saying that there are not internalist out there that can do the things you claim...however I have not seen it, nor am I going to risk my life hypothesizing or waiting for it to happen.

As many of you are fond of saying...go and feel it. Get on the Mat with one of these guys and THEN tell me how much strength they are really using as they climb all over you and disorient you cause you cannot reference them before they move on to the next move.

I get paid for doing this for a living and I have soldiers that are more than happy to try and prove that I or my instructors are dead wrong about what we are teaching...we are dead serious about our training, and I will tell you that your line of thinking will get you or someone else killed if you rely on what you are professing.

Again, it is not to say there is not value in studying arts like aikido as I think there are many benefits if you want to spend the time and the effort improving your finese...in this respect you are right.

Sorry to be so blunt, but it is something that I am very passionate about, having gotten my ass handed to me with the same mind set a few years ago.

Cady Goldfield
04-04-2007, 08:16 PM
Kevin,
From what I've seen over the years, the UFC itself dictates what skills are considered to have value, by dint of what it permits. I'm convinced that many of the contenders have skills that far outstrip the repertoire that they use when competing. If anything, they have to pare down what they know to a relative handful of things they can use in keeping with the rules. Then, they devise effective strategies and tactics to deal with the situations they are likely to encounter in that setting.

To be fair to UFC (which I love, BTW) and that genre, it has value in being the "most real" encounters a person can have, full-bore, without being killed or killing, to test one's strategic, tactical and physical skills. But, what happens in the UFC and Pride is not the full range of possibilities, and I don't like to see it assigned as representing all MMA.

Mike Sigman
04-04-2007, 08:54 PM
I will tell you that I disagree with your opinion on the value of UFC type events as being worthwile as a venue to study effectiveness.

I am qualified and certified at almost every weapons fighitng range in the U.S arsenal from Barrett 50 Cal, M16/M4, M9, M249, M2, knifes, sticks, and empty handed martial arts. Also including most classes of common explosives used in the military.

I am probably about as well rounded of a warrior who trains soldiers to use ranges of fighting. We have invested many dollars, much research and collect many experiences of people that use this stuff in combat.

We see much value in MMA as defined by UFC..for what it can teach us about close fighting.

It does not discount what Mike, Rob, and Dan discuss in MA at all.

However, your logic concerning UFC as being too limited to test real martial effectiveness in an empty handed environment is simply incorrect in mine, and many of our soldiers experiences.

Kit is a SWAT member I believe. He is saying the same thing.

However...if you don't believe it...then find yourself even a B level MMA sport fighter and tell him to drop all the rules and then fight him and tell me what you think of how limited and short his skills are.

I am not saying that there are not internalist out there that can do the things you claim...however I have not seen it, nor am I going to risk my life hypothesizing or waiting for it to happen.

As many of you are fond of saying...go and feel it. Get on the Mat with one of these guys and THEN tell me how much strength they are really using as they climb all over you and disorient you cause you cannot reference them before they move on to the next move.

I get paid for doing this for a living and I have soldiers that are more than happy to try and prove that I or my instructors are dead wrong about what we are teaching...we are dead serious about our training, and I will tell you that your line of thinking will get you or someone else killed if you rely on what you are professing.

Again, it is not to say there is not value in studying arts like aikido as I think there are many benefits if you want to spend the time and the effort improving your finese...in this respect you are right.

Sorry to be so blunt, but it is something that I am very passionate about, having gotten my ass handed to me with the same mind set a few years ago.All I can say is "Jeez". How do we keep getting off-topic into who can kick who's butt? And the ever present "who in MMA have you fought?"

There's a local guy I met here who is teaching BJJ and MMA ... he's competed some, but he's not anything special. He's got some interesting stuff, though. Should I go in and tell him his stuff is no good because he personally can't kick my butt? I'd be a complete moron to act like that.... if it's useful, it's useful and I'm not going to disparage the guy and blow my own horn about all my past adventures, for chrissake.

Think of France and their attitude about "American Cooking". How many top French cooking awards have Americans won? None. Therefore, American cooking is no good, right? And Americans that think they're good.... why haven't they entered the big French competitions???? Hell... most of us never heard of any of the French cooking competitions, but we have some extremely fine cooks.

China is so big that if you take the top 25% of their brightest students... that's more students than we have in ALL of the US. We could take ALL of our jobs and give them to China and they'd STILL have an unemployment problem. They have bodyguard-level fighters that other countries pay to acquire for their leaders. These guys don't do forms, kata, etc. They practice killing 6-8 hours a day in all sorts of circumstances, big guy or small. These guys never even heard of "UFC" .... yet some westerners make their big question "oh, this guy can't be any good if he didn't fight in MMA comps". Come on. The arrogance that someone is no good if he's nobody in your own little world is just stunning. Can we get back to the topic so we can line up for another brag by someone or another chance to get an oblique putdown to someone if he isn't on the MMA boards?

YMMV,

Mike Sigman

eyrie
04-04-2007, 09:42 PM
Mikes Sigman had a brief say here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=164980&highlight=organs#post164980

He says its the same kind of animal.

I think a common theory is that there are different variations of the way you train ki that will yield somewhat different results qualitatively (e.g. original yoga - completely nonmartial example). But it's all based on the same basic phenomena of activating muscles and fascia (and stuff???) deep inside the body that are not normally directly used in untrained people. Well, I'm not debating this... I'm merely saying that martial usage and application of this is slightly different to simply practising yoga? Otherwise, why bother with aikido? We'd be th3 q1-m@st3r, by simply "practising yoga"????

Mike Sigman
04-04-2007, 09:49 PM
Well, I'm not debating this... I'm merely saying that martial usage and application of this is slightly different to simply practising yoga? Otherwise, why bother with aikido? We'd be th3 q1-m@st3r, by simply "practising yoga"????I always think of the episode where Koichi Tohei showed he could push a seiza-seated monk over, thus demonstrating the superiority of his ki over the monk's. But that's not true. Tohei was using jin/kokyu and you can have really superior ki without having any ability to manipulate forces. In fact, you can do some basic jin forces pretty darn strong without really having any qi/ki either. It's the combination of the 2, combined with the control being in the dantien that is considered a proper acquisition of ki skills.

FWIW

Mike

Haowen Chan
04-04-2007, 10:12 PM
I always think of the episode where Koichi Tohei showed he could push a seiza-seated monk over, thus demonstrating the superiority of his ki over the monk's. But that's not true. Tohei was using jin/kokyu and you can have really superior ki without having any ability to manipulate forces. In fact, you can do some basic jin forces pretty darn strong without really having any qi/ki either. It's the combination of the 2, combined with the control being in the dantien that is considered a proper acquisition of ki skills.


So what is qi (the part of that is not jin)?

Upyu
04-04-2007, 10:20 PM
Well, I think its not very useful if you can't use it to engage but only defend. I can defend judo throws basically forever without internal skills. I just don't engage. Its very very very hard to throw someone who doesn't want to engage you. But if you could engage and keep your internal power,now that would be something.

Although there is no rule against stalling in many grappling tournaments. Some tournaments don't even keep score for the first 5 or 10 minutes.

Like I said, it was back when my skill level was just getting to the preschool stage :)
Think you're missing something here, I was engaging. I wasn't playing the grab ass grip game, I had my hands on top of his wrists, and basically controlled his balance so I was free to strike if I wanted (not within the Judo ruleset I know). Unfortunately I sucked at judo/shuai jiao type throws at the time.

Some food for thought though... so for someone who only had a limited amount of time training under Sam (maybe a year at that point) against said judo kid who spent 6 years under Jason Morris's (ex olympic contender) camp...what does that say about Judo if he's unable to throw someone who's being passive?
Whether or not the guy is being passive shouldn't make a difference ;) I know it didn't make a difference with most of the other guy's I've touched hands with that were better than myself.

KIT
04-04-2007, 10:29 PM
Kit,
You apparently didn't read my definition of MMA closely....

Well, since you posted it AFTER I posted, no I didn't.

Its a good one, though and I agree with it - that's what I do - not MMA for the ring. One of the guys I trained with calls it "mixed Marshal arts" LOL.

But now we're changing the definition, aren't we? Nice side step.

If we are seriously now going to bring the knives, guns, modern combatives into it, then you'll need to do a lot of reading before we can get much further. If you are training the way you describe this place is a gold mine:

www.totalprotectioninteractive.com

Come join us, we have people with far more qualifications there who have been doing what you are describing for years - AS WELL as ring based MMA. Some of them do both!! Lots of cops and soldiers do.

Dang, Mike,

I thought you were above the whole MMA thing. You don't find a way to mention it in nearly every post so I figured your interests were simply in the pursuit of the art.

You make my point with your own local BJJ/MMA guy. There are a lot of them out there that aren't very special - that in fact don't actually do "real" MMA at all, and many who do a class here and there while they are "training for the cage." That is why saying on "I've done this to MMA guys" means so little without a name to go with it.

And did you actually write BODYGUARD LEVEL FIGHTERS!?!

BODYGUARDS?? Whoa! They practice killing 6-8 hours a day? Man! Where do they find the training partners?? And what do they do with the bodies??

:rolleyes:

Just like with internal arts, you really learn how much a person actually understands about CQB, DT, tactical apps, PSD etc. when you read posts like that.

Thanks, though!

So far, no replies on the other boards re: Dan, although I may have to re-assess. One guy said he found a pic of Dan.

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Harden_Dan_1049743959.aspx

He didn't tell us about his Northern Ireland military experience and his Arabic skills - NO WONDER he's so hard to get hold of some times....... (James Bond music begins...)

Kevin Leavitt
04-04-2007, 10:54 PM
Cady,

To be fair to UFC (which I love, BTW) and that genre, it has value in being the "most real" encounters a person can have, full-bore, without being killed or killing, to test one's strategic, tactical and physical skills. But, what happens in the UFC and Pride is not the full range of possibilities, and I don't like to see it assigned as representing all MMA.


Yes, I agree with you on this. It most certainly does not. We make sure we point this out very and demonstrate the other ranges and things that must be considered, and that yes, UFC is a sport and it assumes away many aspects.

Kevin Leavitt
04-04-2007, 11:17 PM
Mike wrote:

All I can say is "Jeez". How do we keep getting off-topic into who can kick who's butt? And the ever present "who in MMA have you fought?"

I never start the MMA discussion, I only step up to discuss it once I see the conversation drift into the area and in which I have some experience and an opinion.

I'd be happy to sit here at listen to the internal, QI discussion without going into this area if the information being put out was indeed factual, correct, and discussed in a matter in which those that are professing knowledge are qualified in the area in which they are spring boarding into.

Who have I fought in MMA?

I had a few nameless fights in toughman contest back in the early 1990s before we called this MMA and era commonly referred to as "Before Gracie". No one knew what they were doing...it was a stupid slugfest and served to validate my ignorance concerning fighting skill (I was a TMA/Karate guy then...had never even heard of aikido or BJJ at that point).

I have a few grappling tournaments (no strikes) under my belt.

More recently I have rolled NHB with many, many soldiers...varying degrees of experience in combat scenarios in trainng.

I have studied with the following people that all have MMA records and while we have not gone full out, only done training....all of these guys have rolled me up well thinking about there grocery list and things they need to do that day....enough to appreciate what MMA brings to the table.

Steve Van Fleet
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=5087
Rodolfo Amaro
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=11722
Roberto Traven
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?FighterID=142

I find it interesting that we have never ventured into the counter argument. that is, how does MMA fit into internal martial arts?

Yet a few people venture into the area of MMA to discuss how they think internal skills apply, yet they demonstrate a lack of knowledge in this area, I offer a counter perspective that is contrary and I am the guy that is steering the conversation in this direction????

I'd never have do this in the Jin, KI/QI area of discussion...but maybe we should explore the inverse...how does reality and non-compliance fit into internal skills instead of the converse? which everyone seems to be an expert on!

eyrie
04-04-2007, 11:40 PM
I always think of the episode where Koichi Tohei showed he could push a seiza-seated monk over, thus demonstrating the superiority of his ki over the monk's. But that's not true. Tohei was using jin/kokyu and you can have really superior ki without having any ability to manipulate forces. In fact, you can do some basic jin forces pretty darn strong without really having any qi/ki either. It's the combination of the 2, combined with the control being in the dantien that is considered a proper acquisition of ki skills.

FWIW

Mike

Thanks, that's precisely what I'm getting at.... my wife has really strong qi (from years of singing)... you can bounce a quarter off her six-pack... and she's really loud too... for a dimunitive woman :D but in terms of her ability to use jin/kokyu in any sort of martial context is pretty much nil.

So back to the question at hand, and MMA breast-beating aside, is Ki-Aikido or Taiji effective in developing qi... I think is the wrong question to be asking...

KIT
04-04-2007, 11:40 PM
Mike wrote:

I never start the MMA discussion, I only step up to discuss it once I see the conversation drift into the area and in which I have some experience and an opinion.



As I recall, the MMA angle came in when when people were discussing what they could and were doing to men with Judo, BJJ and MMA experience.....

The unanswered question remains what men with Judo, BJJ and MMA experience?

Now it seems to be turned on its head, with a new definition of MMA that really only exists within some small groups of integrated combatives practitioners.

We could ask "who amongst the people becoming well known in the integrated combatives community have you trained with" but then we'd REALLY be going off on a tangent....

G DiPierro
04-05-2007, 01:06 AM
Well, I'm not debating this... I'm merely saying that martial usage and application of this is slightly different to simply practising yoga? Otherwise, why bother with aikido? We'd be th3 q1-m@st3r, by simply "practising yoga"????

There's no question they are different. I've taken yoga classes with some really advanced people (as good as or better than the guy in the clip I posted) and I've never asked one of them to let me push on them. It really doesn't matter to me whether they can apply their body skill in a martial context, only whether they can teach me how to have the skill they have. I'm fully confident that when I develop that level of control over my body that it will be very powerful in a martial context.

I also have a theory that I could teach an advanced yoga practitioner how to be virtually unthrowable in a very short amount of time (a few months or so) just by showing them how to use their existing skill in a new way. Haven't had the chance to test that out yet though. For some reason high-level yoga people don't seem to care much about fighting.

Kevin Leavitt
04-05-2007, 01:25 AM
Giancarlo,

I would tend to agree with your comments concerning this.

For me, the issue has never been if metholodgies such as Aikido, KI/Jin, or yoga can assist in someway..as I think there is much merit in the practices.

Just maybe not in the context that many discuss them.

Gernot Hassenpflug
04-05-2007, 02:13 AM
Thanks, that's precisely what I'm getting at.... my wife has really strong qi (from years of singing)... you can bounce a quarter off her six-pack... and she's really loud too... for a dimunitive woman :D but in terms of her ability to use jin/kokyu in any sort of martial context is pretty much nil.[]/QUOTE

Heh, she is likely also good proof that she doesn't need good jin to beat your butt flat :-) Sounds like my fiancee, same singing, same sixpack, same loud, same diminutive, same kicks my butt LOL. But such a lady does make a quite good training partner for push/pull, and also for training her yourself, since she is likely to understand the ideas and how the spine is used.

[QUOTE=Ignatius Teo;174665]So back to the question at hand /snip/ is Ki-Aikido or Taiji effective in developing qi /snip/

Indeed, it is back to front. If specific exercises were taught correctly with the goal explained, then the aikido and tai-chi would have qi/chi in it as an effect, and people wouldn't be analysing forms but rather the store, release and flow of ki, its associated mechanics, and the pros and cons of different and different levels of mechanisms/power train components.

DH
04-05-2007, 09:23 AM
As I recall, the MMA angle came in when when people were discussing what they could and were doing to men with Judo, BJJ and MMA experience.....
The unanswered question remains what men with Judo, BJJ and MMA experience?

Now it seems to be turned on its head, with a new definition of MMA that really only exists within some small groups of integrated combatives practitioners.

We could ask "who amongst the people becoming well known in the integrated combatives community have you trained with" but then we'd REALLY be going off on a tangent....

Was away yesterday and missed all this nonsense.
Kit
For starters you're acting like a troll. Posting my name all over town, then dragging a character defaming picture here thus insinuating "I'm not real" is disgusting. Particularly, since you know so many who know me. I don't care if you dissagree with me. There is no excuse for this kind of behaviour-none. It would you see you banned from most forums. Allowing it here is a clear mesage for me, so thanks for that.

1. As for MMA? I really don't care who can beat who or how LEO trains VS military or whether or not -you- think one is better than the other. That's no point at all. Lidell beating Couture doesn't matter. The point is MMA -as a method- wins. Then each man's understanding and skill wins, and sometimes a lucky shot wins. But you already know this -so what are we arguing?
Me, I've rolled with many high ranked guys over the years. Sorry, but quite frankly I've found cross-trained wrestlers -two trying to get into the UFC-more challenging. No, I've not rolled with a BJJ black belt yet, but you picqued my interest so I found one from Rio. I can roll with him next week. I don't know if its just BJJ or MMA. But I don't think I'll be issuing a book report to some yahoo in Seatlle.
I've said it hundred times. I argue on two fronts. MMA as a superior method. And internal training as superior conditioning. But if you don't learn to fight- you can't fight.

2. Apparently you take issue with me bringing up MMA in regards to internal training as a conditioning or training tool that has value in that venue as any other venue. That's your call, fine by me. I judge their value from what it adds to my game. You want the merit of them judged as a value on a level with someone you know or is known by you. I've already heard this before, already heard this from right here- much the same as with Sorrentino's "oh so friendly" behaviour and doubts.

Stick to your training. I'm sure it hasn't changed over the years, sure you didn't "discover" something others were doing that added to your game. There is nothing you didn't know. I think you should dismiss me as any source. Dismiss the idea entirely. I think you know best, Kit.

Dan

Mike Sigman
04-05-2007, 09:29 AM
Who have I fought in MMA? No, no, no. I wasn't asking that. I was asking why that is so important. It's like me constantly asking what high-level Sanda fighters in China you've ever fought. That's what they focus on and if you haven't fought one of them, you're no one. Kit LeBlanc is no one, even if he's the Swat God in Seattle that can lay smack words on internet forums. The point being that everyone has their idea of what is top level..... but THAT IS NOT THE DISCUSSION ON THIS THREAD! The basic point is that neither you nor Kit know what the discussion is about (yeah, I checked on Kit's background, so I have a pretty good idea who he is and what he knows)... but you both have this antagonistic approach with a "the stuff I do is better" attitude. I'd prefer to hear you make statements *after* you've seen some of the good stuff and then say why it's no good and why you're so much better and you can beat inexperienced guys in their 20's and yada, yada, yada. Anything to keep off of the MMA bluster.... we've all seen it on the various forums. It's like a broken record back over about 15 posts where this stuff cycles, then you're going to wait and go see it, and then you question the worth of it compared to your own abilities, then you're going to wait and see it before you comment any more, and then you teach this stuff too, and so on.

Why don't we take some simple movement... say a punch... and you tell us how this "ki" that you teach works to assist a punch. We can tell right away if we're talking the same thing. Of if you think ki has nothing to do with a punch, just say why. Then we can get back toward the main topic of the discussion.

FWIW

Mike

DonMagee
04-05-2007, 09:32 AM
Like I said, it was back when my skill level was just getting to the preschool stage :)
Think you're missing something here, I was engaging. I wasn't playing the grab ass grip game, I had my hands on top of his wrists, and basically controlled his balance so I was free to strike if I wanted (not within the Judo ruleset I know). Unfortunately I sucked at judo/shuai jiao type throws at the time.

Some food for thought though... so for someone who only had a limited amount of time training under Sam (maybe a year at that point) against said judo kid who spent 6 years under Jason Morris's (ex olympic contender) camp...what does that say about Judo if he's unable to throw someone who's being passive?
Whether or not the guy is being passive shouldn't make a difference ;) I know it didn't make a difference with most of the other guy's I've touched hands with that were better than myself.

Judo throws only work when you get someone to move in an aggressive way, just like aikido throws. You can't throw a guy who stands there and keeps his balance. I don't care what art you are in. Sure you could muscle the guy off his feet or something, but you can't actually throw. The nature of the throws requires someone to be moving in a way that lends its self to the throw. You can't just grab, pull, throw against a guy who is actively resisting you. You have to convince them to move the right way and attack. Once they attack they open themselves up for the throw. If they were not attacking why would you need to throw them anyways?

Judo is perfect for what it was ment for, launching an aggressor in the clinch range to the ground. If your not attacking me, there is no reason to clinch. It would be easier to punch you in the face.

Mike Sigman
04-05-2007, 09:39 AM
Judo throws only work when you get someone to move in an aggressive way, just like aikido throws. You can't throw a guy who stands there and keeps his balance. I don't care what art you are in. Sure you could muscle the guy off his feet or something, but you can't actually throw. The nature of the throws requires someone to be moving in a way that lends its self to the throw. You can't just grab, pull, throw against a guy who is actively resisting you. I dunno... I did a lot of judo and I don't particularly agree with this. There are too many factors to just make general statements like that. And I can throw a lot of people Tai Otoshi without them ever having to do anything aggressive, as a simple example.

Mike

DonMagee
04-05-2007, 10:05 AM
I dunno... I did a lot of judo and I don't particularly agree with this. There are too many factors to just make general statements like that. And I can throw a lot of people Tai Otoshi without them ever having to do anything aggressive, as a simple example.

Mike

I've never been thrown when I wasn't attacking. I have also stood in on place and let people try to throw me. With the exception of very large strong men, and my instructor I am usually not moved.

However, what I am talking about is someone who is defensive. I can hold most anyone off all day in judo by doing a few things.

1) Never attempt to throw
2) prevent them from maintaining a grip.
3) Never lifting my feet up when I walk.
4) Keeping an upright posture.

Maybe I have developed some internal skill, but if I do these things I can hold off most anyone all day long. If I take a single one of these out of the equation then I am easily throwable. Not only that, but most people will say they do not feel it would be wise to even enter for a throw.

Anyways, it is getting off topic. My point was to not be thrown doesn't require much internal skill. I know lots of muscle heads who are crazy hard to throw just because they have a good sense of when to stiff arm and when to drop their hips and they don't peruse you.But when they attack, their technique is poor and I take them for a ride. Of course I could muscle them though and probably get a throw, but that is not judo.

So what I would find impressive is someone who can maintain this unthrowable posture and still send guys flying and at a high competitive level. At my level it doesn't interest me because I have learned many neat tricks that my instructor without batting an eyelash can overcome but green belts can not. So it could be a neat trick, but ultimately not hold water against serious practitioners, or it could be a very effective movement that allows you to win a gold medal in the olympics.

Then I ask a second thing, after this is done, move to my town and open a judo club :-)

DH
04-05-2007, 10:16 AM
Judo throws only work when you get someone to move in an aggressive way, just like aikido throws. You can't throw a guy who stands there and keeps his balance. I don't care what art you are in. Sure you could muscle the guy off his feet or something, but you can't actually throw. The nature of the throws requires someone to be moving in a way that lends its self to the throw. You can't just grab, pull, throw against a guy who is actively resisting you. You have to convince them to move the right way and attack. Once they attack they open themselves up for the throw. If they were not attacking why would you need to throw them anyways?

Judo is perfect for what it was ment for, launching an aggressor in the clinch range to the ground. If your not attacking me, there is no reason to clinch. It would be easier to punch you in the face.
Hmm...
Trying to throw an aggressive attacker is all the same to you then?
Every man moves the same? Every man who try's to throw you "opens himself up" for an attack in the same way? All men's balance is the same?

The nature of the throws requires someone to be moving in a way that lends its self to the throw.
And there it is..........
I suggest to you that there are men who don't move or feel quite the way you think everyone else does, nor do they retain their balance the same way. The real key here is "most think that's B.S." That's it.
That all men just have varying degrees of better "conventional" balance. Add to that istheir judo skills.
And not there is a better way to have structure and retain it that is different than what they know.
Of course trying a "judo" throw on some may be a hell of a lot harder then others. But sometimes it's due to skill in Judo, sometimes due to better structure. But why not go for both.

If you read Harrison's book of Judo in Japan in the 30's.
Several of the top flight Judo men were aware of this type of training and that most didn't do it. As one Judoka stated "When Mr. So and so used those skills he could not be thrown."
Those "skills" and how to train them- came from an Aikijujutsu guy. Harrison's book is "the fighting spirit of Japan."

As for standing outside and punching or kicking. Well that's anther topic all together-MMA the great equalizer; grappling and Striking combined. I'd suggest grappling, striking, cardio and internal training. But if I could have only one, it would be Internal skills.

Cheers
Dan

Kevin Leavitt
04-05-2007, 11:09 AM
Mike Sigman:

LOL, looks like I misunderstood what you where saying. Anyway, intent is not to be antagonistic. Yes I agree with the broken record. It kinda dawned on me this morning as I drove into work concerning this issue.

Anyway...

I agree that I do not really understand what the conversation is about with respect to the issues YOU are discussing. There are other things though that are constantly brought that I do have issues with and will say so.

It is never about the internal stuff as it relates to internal training methodologies...just about the unproven extrapolation that many have in areas that they have little or no experience.

Anyway...you are correct in the fact that this is a broken record with nothing really that I have to add and no reason that I should start appearing like Don Quixote.

That and the threads are being discussed by a tight shot group of the exact same people...so really what is the point in discussing this anyway. Starting to meet Einstein's definition of insanity.

So, I am going to bow out of this...permanently this time...I promise!

You guys have fun and maybe we will have the opportunity to train someday and then we will have something to talk about.

In the meantime I am going to get back to other conversations here on aikiweb and training that I need to work on right now.

Thanks!

Mike Sigman
04-05-2007, 12:58 PM
However, what I am talking about is someone who is defensive. I can hold most anyone off all day in judo by doing a few things. Yeah, but regardless, it's a matter of the old "come to my dojo, play by my rules, and I'll win" scenario. The "developing Qi" discussion really has little to do with the "play by my rules" scenario. It's more of a discussion of basic principles that should be useful to anyone as a base, *before* the idea of rules or styles comes in. More like a training method. If someone has a training method that adds to fighting or strength, regardless of the type of fighting, then it's worthwhile. Notice how after the Gracie Revolution things have kept evolving. People are learning how to punch very hard from boxers. New holds have come in from other styles. And so on. It's all about basics, not about whose style is king. Shooting and taking down was "unbeatable" a couple of years back.... remember how that's changed? Everything in the West is simply evolving and we need to keep that in mind while we discuss these topics on basics. 1) Never attempt to throw Yeah, but you're attempting to keep your balance. That would be all anyone should need. 2) prevent them from maintaining a grip. Sure. Of course that's fairly artificial if you think about "folding" and kicks and a few other things. 3) Never lifting my feet up when I walk. I love to step on top of feet and move somebody off balance. Oops. Sorry, ref. ;) 4) Keeping an upright posture.Great idea. However, if someone can manipulate jin directions, as I'm convinced Dan can do because he's said the right things and none of the wrong things, then being upright is going to be meaningless if you can't do it, too.

So the way to straighten out the topic so that it applies to Ki-Aikido, Taiji, Judo, etc., is to simply relate what you can do to the basic topic. How, for instance, can you respond to someone like Dan who can manipulate the jin/kokyu that is used in Aikido and other arts?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

KIT
04-05-2007, 02:14 PM
Dan-

Knowing it was not you, that pic was an attempt at making a contentious online exchange somewhat lighthearted. No personal offense was intended. :o

Otherwise, the record is broken because we are hearing the same song.

Mike and yourself are simply way off base regarding the MMA issue, it is not about "who can beat up who," and I for one have never stated "the stuff I do is better." I don't even do competitive MMA, BJJ or Judo!

I do TRAIN with guys who do all those things. And have no problem telling anyone what their names are, who they train with, or how I do against them.

Its about proof. Both you and Mike, in your ongoing discussions of this issue are very free and condescending with your attitudes toward other IMA practitioners without their presenting proof of true internal skills - descriptions of what they do, people whom they trained under, etc. As it should be!

Mike clearly held much the same attitude toward you during the Aikido Journal replay of this same topic.

Yet, when you bring up, incessantly, your opinions and the experience that you can and have used this against (insert combat sport here), you bristle when held to the same standard you hold other people discussing IMA to??

When directly asked who in MMA, Judo, or BJJ you have been tested against, you obfuscate. You freely bring up several aikidoka here who have trained with you in person, most of them openly admitting they don't do MMA.

Yet you talk about people "trying to get into the UFC," (if I had a dime for every couch potato, barely training "fighter" that I have heard say that I'd be rich!), or mention someone with a Judo rank as if that actually means anything.

Anyone in the Judo world will tell you that there are shodan and nidan, and even some brown belts, who eat godan and rokudan for breakfast. Rank is not an indicator of fighting skill in Judo. Sadly its becoming that way in BJJ as well.

So if I am acting like a troll, my friend, you are acting like the worst kind of electronic tiger.

What was the name of that guy on Aikido Journal used to tell everybody what was wrong with Aikido, how his MMA-style training would fix what was wrong with it, then got punked when he showed up at the Expo??

That is who you are sounding like.

So, in order to determine whether or not you are in fact an electronic tiger, I took comments you frequently and publicly post, on several public mesage boards for all to see;

On boards that you do not seem to frequent for whatever reason: interestingly the boards that MMA, Judo, and BJJ guys you are apparently training with would frequent.

Just to see if any of these guys actually know you....

Believe it or not, I want to see some messages "I've trained with him, he does good stuff."

If you are uncomfortable with the words from your public statements being brought to a wider audience, beyond TMA and Aiki forums and Empty Flower, perhaps you shouldn't put it out there so much.

I am, in fact, in agreement with much of what you say. I am with you and Mike on Don's Judo statement. And you are a voice of common sense on Empty Flower...

But some of us here are more interested in some kind of proof of what you say you can do, to the people you say you can do it to. One name, two. Who are you training with and doing this stuff to that is an active MMA fighter? Give us the Sherdog link like Kevin did. Or competitively ranked Judo or BJJ rank holders??

If you are conversant with the MMA world you know that is not an unusual or demanding request in any way.

Rob clearly does understand it, and has no problem telling us who, when and where he has done so. He even shows video!!

KIT
04-05-2007, 02:18 PM
No, no, no. I wasn't asking that. I was asking why that is so important. It's like me constantly asking what high-level Sanda fighters in China you've ever fought. That's what they focus on and if you haven't fought one of them, you're no one. Kit LeBlanc is no one....



Well, I like to think I'm someone....:(

Ron Tisdale
04-05-2007, 02:27 PM
What was the name of that guy on Aikido Journal used to tell everybody what was wrong with Aikido, how his MMA-style training would fix what was wrong with it, then got punked when he showed up at the Expo??

That is who you are sounding like.

Oh?? Well, one thing I can tell you, Dan ain't getting punked. You should try it...I've seen both of you. :D

Best,
Ron

Mike Sigman
04-05-2007, 02:33 PM
Its about proof. Both you and Mike, in your ongoing discussions of this issue are very free and condescending with your attitudes...
The big difference that I see here is that Dan, Rob, me, and others supply how-to's, reports, meet with people so it's not just talk (despite your insinuations).... and all you contribute is attitude. But I've heard you have one, even on the outside. Why not see if you have something compelling to contribute to the discussion, rather than just your attitude?

Mike Sigman

DonMagee
04-05-2007, 02:52 PM
Yeah, but regardless, it's a matter of the old "come to my dojo, play by my rules, and I'll win" scenario. The "developing Qi" discussion really has little to do with the "play by my rules" scenario. It's more of a discussion of basic principles that should be useful to anyone as a base, *before* the idea of rules or styles comes in. More like a training method. If someone has a training method that adds to fighting or strength, regardless of the type of fighting, then it's worthwhile. Notice how after the Gracie Revolution things have kept evolving. People are learning how to punch very hard from boxers. New holds have come in from other styles. And so on. It's all about basics, not about whose style is king. Shooting and taking down was "unbeatable" a couple of years back.... remember how that's changed? Everything in the West is simply evolving and we need to keep that in mind while we discuss these topics on basics. Yeah, but you're attempting to keep your balance. That would be all anyone should need. Sure. Of course that's fairly artificial if you think about "folding" and kicks and a few other things. I love to step on top of feet and move somebody off balance. Oops. Sorry, ref. ;) Great idea. However, if someone can manipulate jin directions, as I'm convinced Dan can do because he's said the right things and none of the wrong things, then being upright is going to be meaningless if you can't do it, too.

So the way to straighten out the topic so that it applies to Ki-Aikido, Taiji, Judo, etc., is to simply relate what you can do to the basic topic. How, for instance, can you respond to someone like Dan who can manipulate the jin/kokyu that is used in Aikido and other arts?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Two things.

1) I think you are misinterpreting me. My whole judo thing really is just a statement that not being throw in a judo match is not a good example of internal strength because it's very easy to do if you are not playing within the rules of judo. Now if you can win judo matches and not be thrown, that is impressive. My martial art training increasingly is becoming more about winning competition because I find it so much fun to compete. I don't' care about being un-movable, unthrowable, etc. I care about wining the match. My secondary emphasis is on how I can apply what I've learned to the real world. So my interest is purely "Is this training more efficient then what I am currently doing to help me win my matches?"

2) I have no one around here to test or try and see if this is worthwhile. No one around here claims the kind of skill spoke of in this thread, and this thread also claims aikido ki is not like these skills. Therefor my aikido instructor does not fit the bill. Even if he did I know he would not spar with me. He is not interested in that. The people I do know who claim to have developed some skill, or that can demonstrate basic ki tests are unable to maintain that skill while sparing. However they are not black belts in their arts, but they do have years more training then I and typically are a lot larger then I. If I were to use them as proof of concept, I would have to say it is not a good use of my time. Of course the rebuttals is they do not have the proper training methods posters claim in these threads.

So what can I do on my own to see the usefulness of these skills in helping me complete my goals. My martial art goals are as follows.

1) Prevent weight gain. I need to burn calories so I do not become diabetic. Currently I run and do body weight and some weight exercises, usually related to actual movements I use in bjj and judo (such as uchi-komi with resistance bands, shoots with resistance bands, solo Uchi-komi with hand weights, pushups, lunges, crunches, dive bombs, pull ups, hanging from a gi jacket, heavy bag work with weighted gloves, etc)
2) Win more competitions. I love competition and I want to improve the level I can compete at. This means I need to gain more skill in actually controlling another human being. This includes judo, bjj, and mma. Currently I train on Mondays, wedsdays, Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays. Usually from 6pm to 8 or 9pm, sometimes longer. Typically I train bjj for 2 hours and judo for 1 hour, sometimes it's just bjj, sometimes we work striking (rare now that I'm focusing on improving my grappling and plan to get back into striking this winter). Usually training is warmups with running, jumping, rolls, breakfalls, pushups, dive bombs, crunches, positional sparing, open sparing, and of course lots of drills with varying levels of resistance. Most of my time is spent positional sparing or open sparing. I have been adding a lot more drills lately to try to clean up my technique.
3) Self defense. This is the thing I care least about. Usually my training for this keeping an eye out for unsafe things in sparing and trying to avoid them as much as possible. So I stay away from turtling up, I watch my head position in the guard, mount, back, etc, and I talk to my instructor about how to do things with no gi and make sure I do no gi sparing at least once a week. This includes throws and well as grappling.

Unrelated to all these goals, I occasionally go to aikido class to hang out with my friends and try to think outside the box for a bit.

So how would we change this training to allow the development of internal skills without weakening my goals? Is it possible? Can I do it without a skilled trainer?

My current thoughts are that the application of internal skills is cool, but its not something I should spend any time on.

Mike Sigman
04-05-2007, 03:21 PM
1) I think you are misinterpreting me. My whole judo thing really is just a statement that not being throw in a judo match is not a good example of internal strength because it's very easy to do if you are not playing within the rules of judo. Exactly. But I think Dan already noted somewhere that these skills are already mentioned in Judo. However, and I'm not disparaging, I've been in judo and I know that if someone just told me these things and I didn't see them, I wouldn't quite get the point either. So I'm not going to waste yours or my time re-hashing what's already been said. So how would we change this training to allow the development of internal skills without weakening my goals? Is it possible? Can I do it without a skilled trainer?
[[snipsky]]
My current thoughts are that the application of internal skills is cool, but its not something I should spend any time on.I agree. You shouldn't. This stuff is just getting started (among westerners). Luckily for me I already had my "fightin'" worries out of the way when I felt someone using this odd kind of irresistable strength and I started trying to find out how he did it. I "wasted" many years finding out what I little I do know and it's interesting and helpful stuff. But if I'd had goals like yours it would have been a waste of time. On the other hand, if someone could have taught me these things while I was still interested in martial arts for reasons like yours, it would have made me a killer SOB.... for whatever that's worth other than a testosterone rush and the other usual motivations. ;)

Regards,

Mike

KIT
04-05-2007, 03:47 PM
The big difference that I see here is that Dan, Rob, me, and others supply how-to's, reports, meet with people so it's not just talk (despite your insinuations).... and all you contribute is attitude. But I've heard you have one, even on the outside. Why not see if you have something compelling to contribute to the discussion, rather than just your attitude?

Mike Sigman

Well, it's probably something like yours.

Remember, we've read your old exchanges with Dan on Aikido Journal. And how many aikidoka and internal exponents have you questioned on line and in person because they said they could do things?

In that light, you will no doubt agree that the problem with the martial arts is the need for MORE attitude, if its asking people to perform under the conditions, and against the people they claim they can. Or at least tell us whom they have done it to. Not LESS.

You must realize that your own online delivery is often considerably grating to some people. It has never seemed to keep you from asking the questions that are important to you.

But since you never talk about MMA, or what you do to Judoka, MMA fighters, BJJ-ers, whatever, and our interests in martial arts seem quite different, so there is no need to ask you similar questions, and I have little interest in meeting with you or feeling what you can do.

I know you can do something, and I know you can teach it, as I've told you I used to train with Amy, she's a tiny woman and had a lot of power. Good for you, and good for her!

I have met Rob, and given a report. Rob also has been open about MMA, BJJ etc. which is why I was interested in meeting him. We had a good time.

I tried to meet with Dan. He never called me back.

So, its not just talk, it is legitimate seeking of answers to common, and very simple questions.

I have come to the conclusion, far too late, that I will not be given those answers, so I am retiring. This thread (drift!) has been very instructive on a number of levels. I can only hope that others found something of interest in it.

Mike Sigman
04-05-2007, 04:06 PM
In that light, you will no doubt agree that the problem with the martial arts is the need for MORE attitude, if its asking people to perform under the conditions, and against the people they claim they can. Or at least tell us whom they have done it to. Not LESS. I don't disagree that more questions should be asked, but the subject is how a core-principle strength is used... you diverted it to a "yeah but can you kick butt" topic. Granted, Dan makes sometimes too much noise about how he can kick-butt with it and he has to be dragged back on topic sometimes, but the comparison fails when your "who have you fought" stuff diverts the basic topic. Try asking questions about the topic. You must realize that your own online delivery is often considerably grating to some people. It has never seemed to keep you from asking the questions that are important to you. Yeah... it's weird. I've never really figured it out. Some people hate what I post. Some people like what I post. Some people tell me that the self-absorbed get highly offended by me. I just don't know. I'll slog along somehow... and I'll do it without being the first one to start talking about other peoples' personal attributes. :rolleyes: I have met Rob, and given a report. Rob also has been open about MMA, BJJ etc. which is why I was interested in meeting him. We had a good time. I'm sure. But your report sounded so patronizing and gratuitous that it grated on me, if you'll pardon the term.

Regards,

Mike

KIT
04-05-2007, 04:26 PM
Well, I didn't help the thread drift, any.....

As far as my report on meeting Rob, I hope he didn't see it that way! :(

I actually had a good time and enjoyed meeting him and his open teaching attitude, and willingness to roll. I seriously did not intend it to be patronizing or gratuitous at all.

statisticool
04-05-2007, 07:06 PM
I still wonder what not being able to be pushed over in a static position and/or with play nice rules actually means. Is it a basis for martial arts, or just a body trick with no real value once the parameters chance (and are guaranteed to change in real life).

Justin

statisticool
04-05-2007, 07:07 PM
I
, but the subject is how a core-principle strength is used... you diverted it to a "yeah but can you kick butt" topic.


As my last post indicated, what does a "core-principle strength" actually mean if it refused to be tested or not even able to be tested in a live environment?

Justin

Mike Sigman
04-05-2007, 07:19 PM
Lessee.... here's Cheng Man Ching, whose cult Justin is a worshipful member of (he has webpages, more than one, dedicated to Cheng) doing exactly the thing Justin is whining about:

http://www.neijia.com/CMCPush.jpg

Of course, Cheng was beat badly in some fights, so Justin may have a valid discussion point.

Haowen Chan
04-05-2007, 07:58 PM
Alright, since I started this thread, and am tired ot separating the info from the noise, I'd like to make a request:

Let's take as an basic assumption that ki (qi, jin, kokyu, etc) exists and it is useful to some people.

The axiom may be false in reality. And the people who want it may be completely deluded.

I don't care.

I want to know more about this ancient concept and about the systems used to train it.

Thank you!

Jim Sorrentino
04-05-2007, 10:02 PM
Hi Dan,2. Apparently you take issue with me bringing up MMA in regards to internal training as a conditioning or training tool that has value in that venue as any other venue. That's your call, fine by me. I judge their value from what it adds to my game. You want the merit of them judged as a value on a level with someone you know or is known by you. I've already heard this before, already heard this from right here- much the same as with Sorrentino's "oh so friendly" behaviour and doubts.Glad to see that you're reading carefully enough to spell my name correctly... now if only you could read my intent. ;)

I am curious to know why you have never checked out either Saotome- or Ikeda-sensei, given that they both visit the Boston area once a year. One of your students told me that it was not necessary to see Saotome-sensei, having seen one of Saotome-sensei's senior people. That approach has its problems, and I'm sure that you're smarter than that.

Sincerely (really),

Jim

statisticool
04-05-2007, 10:21 PM
My domain mentioned is http://www.zhengmanqing.com/

One page is about Zheng himself, and that is a biography page understandably. I'm not sure why this would be surprising to some.

It is a rather odd definition of "cult", of course, but some definitions presented for internal strength (like supposedly the qi talked about in martial treatises is really a vector, etc.) are odd too, so that's par for the course.

Zheng could have been beaten in some fights, of course, no one has claimed otherwise. Zheng did not claim he was unpushable or unbeatable.

However, when asked for actual evidence of newspaper clippings said to prove that Zheng was beaten, in a hospital, etc., the claimaints never actually produce it.

Getting back on track, Zheng isn't making these claims, a tiny group of modern day practitioners are. They are here; Zheng and other acknowledged masters of the past are not. So when will we see any test of their theories in a live environment?

From people claiming to be unpushable and have methods that we all apparently need to use to improve our training that is apparently lacking, things masters from the past did not say, I'd expect much better.

Justin

Mike Sigman
04-07-2007, 08:58 AM
My domain mentioned is http://www.zhengmanqing.com/

One page is about Zheng himself, and that is a biography page understandably. I'm not sure why this would be surprising to some.

It is a rather odd definition of "cult", ... Er, "cult" implies people with weird, fanatical behavior. Do you really think that anyone looking at what you post and who you chase around the forum and your attitude.... do you really think that no one thinks you're a perfect representative of cult behavior and fanaticism? Really? Take a moment and look back at how long you've been doing this weird caricature of a monkey jumping from branch to branch and throwing fruit and feces at the humans. :cool:

Mike Sigman

statisticool
04-07-2007, 09:32 AM
Er, "cult" implies people with weird, fanatical behavior.


I'd think cult would imply a smaller group dogmatically holding onto a non-mainstream position, not a larger group non-dogmatically holding onto the mainstream position.


Do you really think that anyone looking at what you post and who you chase around the forum and your attitude.... do you really think that no one thinks you're a perfect representative of cult behavior and fanaticism?


I'm (not really) sorry you feel skepticism and criticism is fanatisicm. You are, of course, invited to report such behavior to the mods, to the poilice, the FBI, whomever you wish to try and rid yourself of such awful abuse when people ask you to back up your many claims that don't jive much with taijiquan classics, science, or common sense.


Take a moment and look back at how long you've been doing this weird caricature of a monkey jumping from branch to branch and throwing fruit and feces at the humans. :cool:


Actually, you should take a moment. You have an easily searchable internet history of you doing much worse on many more internet forums.

Is it inherently dishonest to ask me questions, then accuse me of stalking when I respond to those questions? Oh yes, very dishonest.

The picture couldn't get any clearer.

But let's get back on track. When will we see any test of the people who claim they are unpushable in a live environment, like a competition like UFC or similar? I'd like to improve my training that I've been informed is apparently lacking, but so far, there is little real evidence to suggest that such methods would improve it.

Justin

Mike Sigman
04-07-2007, 09:56 AM
Is it inherently dishonest to ask me questions, then accuse me of stalking when I respond to those questions? Ah, but Justin... you've seen quite a number of people indicate quite bluntly that this sort of dissembling and fantasy that you're another normal poster simply fails. Yet you give this innocence defense of "normality" each time, without recognizing and responding to normal social stimuli.

Since you clearly are not controlling yourself and somehow think that your dissimulation and pretense of innocence is convincing anyone... then your instability is a given. And BTW... a number of people that I know of on the forum are familiar with the strange characters the inhabit the Cheng Man Ching world; your behavior is even odder than most.

The part that I am interested in watching is that your "look at me" attention-seeking gambits on your webpages (yes, I know you've removed some of the more blatant ones that I've pointed out in the past) indicates that you're seeking some form of approbation in society, yet you make emotionally-erratic postings that do exactly the opposite for you. You desperately want replies to bizarre negative questioning so my feeling is that if I post just the right things at the right intervals we can keep the monkey-on-the-stick performing. ;) Fun to watch. We all know people like you on the fringes of the martial arts (Cheng Man Ching followers, Aiki-fruities, various "Taoist" charades, etc.) and frankly, I consider you just part of the scene. Rock on, dude.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

gdandscompserv
04-07-2007, 10:57 AM
they would be thoroughly owned by a decent high school wrestler
This reminded me of something I will never forget. In high school, wrestling at 185 lbs. Went to a wrestling tournament. I heard the guy I was to wrestle was good but didn't know how good. I was owned in less than 30 seconds. Couldn't even remember how I ended up on my back, but there I was, unable to move or respond. Don't know if his skills were internal or external or a combination of the two. Just remember being completely dominated on the mat. At least he was kind enough not to prolong the agony.
Now back to the regularly scheduled progamming.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/deserthippie/peace.gif

statisticool
04-08-2007, 09:22 AM
Only providing evidence for claims matters to me.

Will Mike, Dan, or any other internal guru/teacher who constantly tell us training is lacking, things are missing from taijiquan/aikido, that there are more efficient ways of moving, etc., or their students, compete?

Unpushable. If UFC-ish events are too much to ask to demonstrate in a live environment (which is the only thing that really matters, unless your interested in body tricks like the Magnetic Girl), how about just a judo, sumo, or taijiquan sensing hands tournament.

What better way to inform the world of their amazing secrets?
:eek:

Justin

Cady Goldfield
04-08-2007, 11:37 AM
Justin,
Public competition isn't the be-all end-all proof of anything. Why don't you just train with one of these people on a friendly basis and see what they have yourself? You'll likely be able to draw a good conclusion of how they would hold up in such competitions, if you do.

Kevin Leavitt
04-08-2007, 01:29 PM
Justin,

Actually Dan has said that he would meet me in a non-compliant training environment.

Mike has never said made any great claims concerning Martial Effectiveness in a UFCish environment, only said he felt that these skills could be additive, and essentially has said that he believes that if non-compliance and effective/efficient fighting was the issue, then it may not be an efficient use of your time.

Rob has shown us videos of his folks "Rolling" in a non-compliant way, and has only showed an interest exploring these things more..in the right spirit.

So, really until I meet one or all of them, it is really hard to say any more about this.

I do agree that in the past the conversations have been kinda crazy and have walked the line with some people elluding to the effectivness of these skills. Mainly Dan, however, he did say that he would be willing to meet me and explore this avenue...so now that I have that committment....the burden is on me to meet him half way.

I'd say the same thing would extend to you as well...go roll with Dan, do it in a non-compliant way, take a buddy with you to say "yeah, I was their and Justin moved him all over the place and owned him at will." Take a video camera with you as well and film it so we have the proof.

Think about it, you'd be famous on the internet! More famous than yellow bamboo! You'd be king of Bullshido for a month at least!

You know, I have my doubts and concerns as well, I think based on where these guys are coming from that I'd at least learn a few things from them. I'd also hypothesize that I would probably disagree with them on a few things, and walk away saying "yeah, what they do is good, but in many respects it is no different than X or Y". I may even walk away saying...these guys are completely in lalala land...but I doubt it. It will be more like, yeah..good stuff in these areas...not so good in these. That is par for the course really when working with anyone!

One thing is for sure, if you don't go and train with these guys...you will never now for sure...and will continue to sound like a broken record.

Actually in many respects these guys are really NOT internet warriors as they have gone out in the martial arts communities met, and trained with people. Where do you stand in this area?

Actually I have noticed that you are taking a fair amount of heat in the troll area. It might be helpful if you did tell us a little bit more about your background, where you are currently studying, and what you are currently working on martially. I'd hate to put you in that category, but you do ask alot of questions of people, but have not provided any of your own experiences, mistakes, and thoughts other than to ask people to prove themselves to you.

I am assuming you are still living in the Metro DC area, (NOVA), Mike was at Aikido of Northern VA a few weeks back..did you go?, Lloyd Irving, one of the best MMA guys in the country is right in the area, do you/or have you...trained there?

You have been to ANV as we have discussed in the past, but said that it was not the aikido school for you, which I find interesting as Jimmy's aikido is very, very good and he has a very, very good tactical orientation...although that is not his focus in training aikido.

What is it that you really want from everyone here? What is it that you are seeking and trying to learn? How can we help you? How we help you from being called a troll? I think it would be most helpful if you share a little of yourself with us, if you expect to get much out of this other than being put on everyone's ignore list (which I have never, ever done).

statisticool
04-08-2007, 01:35 PM
Public competition isn't the be-all end-all proof of anything.


In a way it is a demonstration of their claims of martial efficacy, because it is in a live limited parameter environment for all to see and it is objective not a 'I saw this guy; he has Internal Strength(tm) because he felt weird/I didn't understand his movement' anecdote.

One has to ask themselves why no one has stepped up in such venues yet using things we cannot just classify as regular ol' external, and how much longer we in the internal community can tolerate it until we have to admit either internal strength as they envision it doesn't exist, or cannot be distinguished from regular ol external strength.

Justin