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mrfeldmeyer
03-21-2007, 02:22 PM
I was flipping through Budo By Ueshiba Sensei, the other day and saw the use of the word Tori instead of Nage. We use this term in Jiyushinkai, and I have heard it used in many other styles of Aikido, Judo, and other Budo.

Now I am curious if anyone knows when and why Tori became Nage in the Aikikai systems, and other systems the term is used in. I think I was told that the translation for Tori = Taker and Nage = Thrower. That could also be entirely wrong though. Thanks for any feedback.

Josh Reyer
03-21-2007, 03:04 PM
Tori is still used in all the official Japanese Aikikai books I've seen, including the original Japanese versions of Best Aikido and Aikido: The Master Course.

Steven
03-21-2007, 03:07 PM
Of course, there is also Sh'te (shite, she-tay)

James Young
03-21-2007, 03:55 PM
Tori is still used in all the official Japanese Aikikai books I've seen, including the original Japanese versions of Best Aikido and Aikido: The Master Course.

When I was in Japan they always used the term tori and when I was in America they always used the term nage. It may have just been a matter of circumstances of the convention of the dojos I happen to be in (there were all aikikai), but I never really understood the distinction in its usage either (I understand the literal distinction based on kanji).

odudog
03-22-2007, 09:11 AM
Could it be that way back when these terms came into use, it was determined on how the art was practiced in the certain style, dojo, or Sensei. As those students branched out they naturally took the vocabulary with them.

I'll assume that the art practiced in one dojo way back when was consistantly concentrating on tachitori, jotori, and tantotori. So one was always taking the weapon away hence Tori came into vogue.

At the other dojo, the concentration was on taijutsu. So there was nothing to take away but uke was always being thrown so Nage came into vogue.

The third dojo concentrated equally on weapons and taijutsu. So the students spent half the time taking away the weapons and the other half throwing uke so Shite {the one that does} came into vogue.

Josh Reyer
03-22-2007, 12:03 PM
Could it be that way back when these terms came into use, it was determined on how the art was practiced in the certain style, dojo, or Sensei. As those students branched out they naturally took the vocabulary with them.

I'll assume that the art practiced in one dojo way back when was consistantly concentrating on tachitori, jotori, and tantotori. So one was always taking the weapon away hence Tori came into vogue.

At the other dojo, the concentration was on taijutsu. So there was nothing to take away but uke was always being thrown so Nage came into vogue.

The third dojo concentrated equally on weapons and taijutsu. So the students spent half the time taking away the weapons and the other half throwing uke so Shite {the one that does} came into vogue.

Highly unlikely. First off, "tori" is not from tachitori, etc. It is also the most common term used in judo, which has little if any weapons taking techniques.

Also, while I don't want to make any definitive statements, I suspect that "nage" is almost never used in Japan. The reason for this is simple: "nage" as a word, already has the meaning of "a throw". If I were to say, "Nage tries for a throw," in Japanese, I'd have to say, "Nage ga nage wo utou to suru", the subject and object being the very same word. That'd be confusing! Further support for this is the fact that the major dictionaries don't list a "person" doing the action as one of the definitions of nage. They do list such meanings for "uke", "tori", and of course "shi-te", but not for "nage".

I think it's largely a matter of historical usage. Yoshinkan favors "shi-te", which was the term Ueshiba used in "Budo" and "Budo Renshu". The most others seem to favor "tori", perhaps influenced by the ubiquity of judo. Nage seems common in America, at least, and I have no idea why. Perhaps a convention established when Tohei first brought aikido there?

odudog
03-22-2007, 12:26 PM
Josh, while your Japanese is way better than mine I still think that my previous statement still has some wiggle room as being possible. As you know, Japanese shorten words all the time and the martil arts tend to imply different contexts to words. So just because nage is not stated in the dictionary as being "a person who throws" it is still possible that this is the correct meaning. I use 3 dictionaries plus my wife and mother in law to research my Aikido and Japanese vocabulary and sometimes I still am unable to get a correct answer.

DonMagee
03-22-2007, 01:09 PM
I was told they use tori in judo because you are the taker of their balance. But that could just be american romanticism.

Josh Reyer
03-22-2007, 02:17 PM
Josh, while your Japanese is way better than mine I still think that my previous statement still has some wiggle room as being possible. As you know, Japanese shorten words all the time and the martil arts tend to imply different contexts to words. So just because nage is not stated in the dictionary as being "a person who throws" it is still possible that this is the correct meaning. I use 3 dictionaries plus my wife and mother in law to research my Aikido and Japanese vocabulary and sometimes I still am unable to get a correct answer.

Yes, they do shorten words. Uke, for example being short for 受け手, ukete, a direct counterpart to shi-te 仕手. Also, there's 取り手, torite. This word historically represents some involved in sumo or judo. Indeed, "tori" has long been associated with sumo; hence "sumotori" for a sumo wrestler.

So I still find your suggestion unlikely. The sumo/judo/tori connection being a primary reason. The fact that I've never come across nage as representing the person who applies technique in any of the Japanese aikido materials I've read, nor after some extensive Googling was I able to find any aikido use of the word that wasn't applied to a throw itself, being another. So, in so far as these three words go, it doesn't sound plausible to me.

That said, I do think you be on to something with regards to the word "nage" by itself. The fact is, it's widely used (at least in North America), by a wide cross-section of different styles, and hardly (if ever) used in Japan. And yet aikido was spread in North America by Japanese instructors, who you'd expect to use established Japanese terminology (as they did for everything else). Perhaps what happened was that either Tohei, or his early American students, latched on to "nage" because it was the end element of so many techniques, and thus it was easy to explain to folk who knew nothing from Japanese. After all, the guy who takes "ukemi" (falls) is the "uke", so the guy who does the "iriminage/shiho-nage/etc" should be the "nage".

mrfeldmeyer
03-22-2007, 07:36 PM
I think it's largely a matter of historical usage. Yoshinkan favors "shi-te", which was the term Ueshiba used in "Budo" and "Budo Renshu". The most others seem to favor "tori", perhaps influenced by the ubiquity of judo. Nage seems common in America, at least, and I have no idea why. Perhaps a convention established when Tohei first brought aikido there?

Joshua,

In the copy of "Budo" I have, Ueshiba uses Tori as the descriptive. That is actually why I started this thread. Is my American copy of Budo tainted in some way? Anyway, thank you for the insight from someone practicing Aikido in its native tongue.

Josh Reyer
03-22-2007, 10:14 PM
Joshua,

In the copy of "Budo" I have, Ueshiba uses Tori as the descriptive. That is actually why I started this thread. Is my American copy of Budo tainted in some way?

Not tainted. It's just a translation. Check page 40 and you'll see a footnote for "Tori". The footnote says, "tori: the one who executes the technique. In the original text the word shi was used.[/i].

From the excerpts I've seen of Budo in Saito's Takemusu Aikido series, this shi is 仕, the same as in shi-te 仕手.

Talon
03-23-2007, 09:40 AM
We use "tori" at our dojo... but form what I see on the technique names we use the old school names as well.... ie. ikkyo is ude osae, nikyo is kote mawashi, sankyo is kote hineri...etc...

We are I guess just old school.... lol

mjhacker
03-23-2007, 02:35 PM
Also, while I don't want to make any definitive statements, I suspect that "nage" is almost never used in Japan.
Good thing you don't make definitive statements, because I heard it exclusively during my short 10 years there. The first time I heard "nage" referred to as "tori" was after joining up with Jiyushinkai.

Josh Reyer
03-23-2007, 07:18 PM
Good thing you don't make definitive statements, because I heard it exclusively during my short 10 years there. The first time I heard "nage" referred to as "tori" was after joining up with Jiyushinkai.

Yeah, I knew as soon as I said something like "They never say it", someone would say that "They did where I was!" :D Where did you hear it?

mjhacker
03-23-2007, 08:43 PM
Yeah, I knew as soon as I said something like "They never say it", someone would say that "They did where I was!" :D Where did you hear it?
Throughout Tohoku, in the Tokyo area, and at Iwama.

I had no contact with either Judo or Tomiki Aikido while living in Japan. Everything I did was Aikikai or Iwama (which, while technically part of the Aikikai at that time, was never really part of the Aikikai... if you know what I mean).

kokyu
03-24-2007, 09:51 PM
Something which I've wanted to know for a long time...

Interestingly, in Malaysia/Singapore, many people say 'nage' instead of 'tori'. Also, when I had an opportunity to train in a Ki-Society offshoot in the UK, they also said 'nage'

However, I have to agree with Josh about 'tori'. All the Japanese Aikikai books and DVDs that I have refer to 'tori' and 'uke' and never to 'nage' and 'uke'.

However, when I try to explain something here using 'tori', I get blank looks, and then they say, 'oh... you mean NAGE'... :(