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Mato-san
03-20-2007, 11:31 AM
At our dojo I am known to be very active as uke (known for use of a word I don`t have in my vocab maybe notorious) anyhow when I am thrown I quickly return to my duty and dish out the next attack sometimes leave not much room for nage to create his perfect distance. Is this a bad thing? What do you experienced players think? Am I keeping it real or am a pain in the rectum in this regard? Thank you

Robert Rumpf
03-20-2007, 12:05 PM
At our dojo I am known to be very active as uke (known for use of a word I don`t have in my vocab maybe notorious) anyhow when I am thrown I quickly return to my duty and dish out the next attack sometimes leave not much room for nage to create his perfect distance. Is this a bad thing? What do you experienced players think? Am I keeping it real or am a pain in the rectum in this regard? Thank you

You're asking us.. you should probably be asking nage.. :) The answer will depend on the nage, on what the instructor is doing, what nage is working on, nage's mood, nage's capabilities, the space on the mat, your ukemi, etc.

I think having lots of energy is great, and being able to continually attack is also great. Those are excellent assets to your nages in general, but this type of ukemi can sometimes be a real inconvenience, distraction, or annoyance when nage is working on something specific (trying to take apart the movements, or trying to avoid changing techniques).

With regards to distance: in randori, nage creates (or destroys) distance as needed, but when you are practicing a specific technique in rows on a crowded mat, this idea is not always practical. You may need to help them with this.

Use your best judgment, try to be understanding, and ask nage what they want if you start to get unsure about what is best.

If you get bored with less energetic partners, and have excess energy, seek out those who want to train that way to burn off the energy.

Rob

Roman Kremianski
03-20-2007, 03:00 PM
I've never heard of a situation like this. I get up and attack again very quickly too, but no matter how fast you are, there's always a certain amount of time for nage to make his distance. Unless he throws you right in front of him and you lunge out and grab his knees...

sefie
03-20-2007, 05:16 PM
Depending on my mood and energy levels, I'm either bouncing off the walls, or I'm taking things apart very slowly and gently. But no matter how bouncy I'm feeling, I always take care when I'm partnered with someone who is less experienced or physically fit. If your partner is fit and experienced, attack as fast as you can take the ukemi.

Don't sacrifice fast attacks for good form, though. For example, if your attack is meant to be yokomen, do it properly and don't just swing your arm way out to the side.

aikidoc
03-20-2007, 08:07 PM
One guy I trained with was so fast he would sometimes get up from a koshi nage while you were still following through-he 'd hit the mat and spring back to his feet.

Mary Eastland
03-20-2007, 09:47 PM
I love to throw springy ukes...drop by our dojo anytime. 'o)
Mary

Roman Kremianski
03-20-2007, 10:26 PM
One guy I trained with was so fast he would sometimes get up from a koshi nage while you were still following through-he 'd hit the mat and spring back to his feet.

Isn't that basically like a no-handed cartwheel?

Nafis Zahir
03-21-2007, 12:19 AM
At our dojo I am known to be very active as uke (known for use of a word I don`t have in my vocab maybe notorious) anyhow when I am thrown I quickly return to my duty and dish out the next attack sometimes leave not much room for nage to create his perfect distance. Is this a bad thing? What do you experienced players think? Am I keeping it real or am a pain in the rectum in this regard? Thank you

Yes, you are keeping it real and I wish there were more uke like you. That way, people would to start to learn and understand the concept of proper ma-ai. You may be a little too much for lower ranking stdents, but for yudansha, I think you're just right.

Armin Quast
03-21-2007, 03:53 AM
I am also such an Uke at my Dojo in Siegen. That's why all my Students came to me even when they had school-holidays.

My Master told me to do so and that would be one of the most important things in life: When you have fallen down stand up immediately! Otherwise sombody will come and maybe give you the rest.

"So, when you are thrown six times stand up seven times and try harder in your attacks for in real life that's always what you have to do!" he told me.

But he also told me to only attack in real life with the techniques I know when there's no other way around it (talking it over, running away, ...). Violence shall only be the last mean - for violence always causes new violence.

So long!

Mato-san
03-22-2007, 10:19 AM
Mary love your attitude and Nafis this is how I feel.... of course I am not going to pounce on nage if he is still trying to feel out the actual waza but someone that is comfortable with the technique I guess I am offering some maai practical. I always like to speed it up for the higher grades too including Sensei I think deep down they appreciate it! I usually see demo after demo where uke takes a pause and systematiclly dishes out a predicted attack I feel this practice is humble and beneficial to a certain extent thanks for the thoughts!

jason jordan
03-22-2007, 12:43 PM
This is exactly how my sensei takes ukemi for me.
He gives me no time (At Times) to get ready, but it teaches me how to be ready, and actually builds up my endurance. It is a good practice for advanced practice. I love it!!!! But when he feels I need to really work on something, then we slow down.

"Work with your nage and give him what he needs to train"

CitoMaramba
03-22-2007, 01:04 PM
There is one situation where as uke you should NOT get up right away and attack again, and that is in weapons taking (tachi-dori and jo-tori). In this practice tori is supposed to control you with the weapon after he/she has taken it away from you. Uke should only get up after being "released" by tori.
Trying to get up right away could result in uke getting whacked in the head with the ken (like what happened to me once).
Otherwise, being an "active uke" is fine if that is what tori wants.. doing this when tori is not ready for it or wishes to "go slow" can lead to ill-feelings..

Armin Quast
03-26-2007, 12:39 PM
That's exactly what I think of that latter situation. It is far too dagerous to come up too soon - especially when you're training with boken, katana, jo or tanto. In this case Nage ane Uke could oth get hurt badly if they work too fast - because those trainig weapons are hard and sometimes dangerously sharp.

In Judo I also train the self defense techniques with my own group - also techniques against Tanto and Jo. But most of the Judoka I know won't train those techniques at all - unless perhaps for the exam to 5th Dan where they have to present Goshin-Jitsu-No-Kata.

MM
03-26-2007, 02:24 PM
Guess I'm in disagreement with most here.

I'd rather practice slowly. I see many more mistakes that way. You can always speed up, but you can hardly slow down.

If uke is popping up quickly, then I've failed somewhere in control or zanshin or both. As noted with weapons, uke should not get up until "released". And if uke starts to pop up quickly, tori better have uke still in control.

Going fast doesn't equate to real.

Unless you're playing around with certain aspects of speed, loss of control of uke and such, then if your uke is springing back up, IMO, you've not done your job properly as tori. You've lost control somewhere, you've left openings in yourself, and your zanshin has wavered.

The only time uke should be rolling out away from you is because it's the very last resort uke has and uke should never feel like it's a thing he can just spring right back from. There should be a sensation of aliveness, danger, and well, ki for lack of a better word. In no instance should uke feel like popping up for another go, instead uke should be checking tori's position, attitude, zanshin, etc because uke just narrowly got out of a tight situation.

All IMO,
Mark

George S. Ledyard
03-26-2007, 02:37 PM
One guy I trained with was so fast he would sometimes get up from a koshi nage while you were still following through-he 'd hit the mat and spring back to his feet.

We were all trained that way, go down and come back up fast and attack... continuous. There are obvious aerobic advantages to that training but it really doesn't have much to do with the martial side of things and I have come to realize that, this kind of training is why so many seniors have their knees blown out.

When I had knee surgery, the surgeon said he sees this kind of injury all the time... anywhere one tend to twist and load the legs at the same time. The tendency we all had to take roll and come up already facing our partner made it really easy to start facing them a bit too soon, before the legs were properly aligned to take the load, then boom, there it goes. I now encourage my students to come all the way up to their feet and then turn to face me. That way they aren't twisting and loading that poor knee at the same time. It slows things down a tad but none of my students have had knee surgery yet either.

Chuck Clark
03-26-2007, 04:09 PM
Bravo George! It's time that other seniors are passing on this info. Intent, posture, distance, and timing that are appropriate to the situation are important to budo training; not getting back in position to be thrown again as fast as possible. It's not only bad for real budo, as you stated... it's really hard on our knees, etc.

Thanks for another thoughtful post.

tarik
03-26-2007, 04:12 PM
Guess I'm in disagreement with most here.

Most, but not all.

I'd rather practice slowly. I see many more mistakes that way. You can always speed up, but you can hardly slow down.

Yep. I still find myself having to slow myself down again and again, but I notice more openings and more mistakes when I do.

Going fast doesn't equate to real.

The most common reason I hear for why to go fast. I don't agree with it.

My sense is that a many people also go fast to cover up and to recover from their mistakes earlier in the engagement. But that doesn't solve the original problem and causes one to ingrain the mistakes more deeply into their training.

All IMO

Naturally.

Regards,

mjhacker
03-26-2007, 07:01 PM
The most common reason I hear for why to go fast. I don't agree with it.
Going slowly is definitely where it's at. It is more important to learn to do things properly than it is to rush into doing them improperly but quickly.

Speed will come. If it feels like you're going fast, you are probably going way too fast for your skill level. IME, speed doesn't come from training to go fast, but from training slowly and properly.

If you train slowly and properly, there will come a day when it will look to observers as though you're going fast, but you'll still feel like you're going slowly.

Mato-san
03-28-2007, 09:42 AM
Guess I'm in disagreement with most here.

I'd rather practice slowly. I see many more mistakes that way. You can always speed up, but you can hardly slow down.

If uke is popping up quickly, then I've failed somewhere in control or zanshin or both. As noted with weapons, uke should not get up until "released". And if uke starts to pop up quickly, tori better have uke still in control.

Going fast doesn't equate to real.

Unless you're playing around with certain aspects of speed, loss of control of uke and such, then if your uke is springing back up, IMO, you've not done your job properly as tori. You've lost control somewhere, you've left openings in yourself, and your zanshin has wavered.

The only time uke should be rolling out away from you is because it's the very last resort uke has and uke should never feel like it's a thing he can just spring right back from. There should be a sensation of aliveness, danger, and well, ki for lack of a better word. In no instance should uke feel like popping up for another go, instead uke should be checking tori's position, attitude, zanshin, etc because uke just narrowly got out of a tight situation.

All IMO,
Mark

These are nice thoughts Mark and as you may have noticed I am coming from a uke point of view and doing the spring board attack for nage benefits and as the statement goes, if you didnt do him good enough he is getting up too quick? Anyhow love the statements! Not much room for harmony but effective waza!....My main spring board action is to give nage maai practice and would never spring at a go-yon-san-ni kyu that way! But nice words and I hope I never need surgery..... man I already had enough outside of Aikido!

Mato-san
03-28-2007, 09:44 AM
Actually I will just ask my training partners and be done with it! I will report soon...as we have ohanami party soon and we get drunk and questions like this are easy to ask....report soon!

Armin Quast
03-31-2007, 01:55 AM
I hope that you won't get a headache ;-)

C U

Mato-san
04-05-2007, 11:29 AM
haha yes I did get a headache..... what is it with that Japanese Sake it just gives out headaches. And the only comments I was able to get was that I am a realist keeping the combat component real.... not just a show pony but keeping it real... I can live with that and it seems that it is respected.

William Lombardo
04-05-2007, 09:06 PM
Ukemi is personal. It was suggested to me early in my training to primarily focus on Ukemi for the first six years. This was valuable advice. I believe I have learned as much if not more as uke as I have learned as nage. It is a living excercise with different people and is constantly being adjusted.

My understanding of good ukemi is being aware of:

-Giving a strong, honest and sincere attack.
-Nage's movement, experience, implied intentions
-Getting safe and if possible ahead of the attack
-Nage's openings and reversal opportunities
-Where I am on the mat in relation to others that are training around me.
-Staying continuously alert and connected to nage throughout the specific training session.
-Controlled breath and relaxation. Among other things this helps to avoid getting in my own way or being heavy footed and putting myself in danger.

garry cantrell
04-05-2007, 10:13 PM
Geez, y'all...sometimes it's just fun to fling yourself into the maelstrom.:D Just ear to ear grinning fun. At my son's 6th grade LaCrosse game last week a kid got flattened during the course of a hard fought possession - the ref inquired as to how he felt and the kid replied "I FEEL GREAT!" Sometimes the joy of leaping into that dance, whether it's a LAX game or a fully committed attack, is just joyous.

Matthew White
04-05-2007, 11:21 PM
A few years ago I got on the gung-ho kick of jumping right back up and giving tori an immediate attack:rolleyes: but I was lucky enough to get cured of that real quick. Instead of making (more) distance, the tori I was working with decided his perfect distance was to follow me through my roll and put a palm in my face as I came up:uch: , he then "crowded" me and dropped his intent on me like a grand piano:hypno: ... I decided keeping my zanshin upevileyes while keeping my butt on the ground ready for another attack was a much better strategy for me.:cool:

CitoMaramba
04-06-2007, 06:27 AM
Correct, BOTH tori and uke should maintain zanshin after completion of the waza... uke "popping" up right away to attack again doesn't necessarily mean he/she has maintained zanshin...especially if it means popping up right smack into tori's fist / foot / knee / elbow / bokken / jo etc... both tori and uke should be aware of what is happening... that is truly "keeping it real"

Mato-san
04-14-2007, 09:38 AM
good point made...would you agree that active ukemi would maybe help nage cultivate true zanshin also....just a thought..... as I see ukemi as being an active part in nages training whilst perfecting your art of falling also...again nice point made on zanshin