Police/Military Blade Tactics

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[Kevin Leavitt]

Good stuff Kit. One thing that we have noted in the Army is that we have these guys that carry the big knifes (not so much anymore), and ask them calmly in a "what if" experience what they would do if the enemy closed and could not fire weapon, they say i'd pull my knife.

In reality, most do not. They have not developed a game plan for using that weapon, they have it in the wrong place, it is the wrong size, they cannot activate it....most importantly...

we find they forget about it in the heat of battle and become focused on the part of the body of their enemy that they fear most. Usually it is the hands...and then the struggling begins!

So, I stress to them if they are going to carry one for personal protection, they need to develop the instinctual muscle memory necessary to use it when certain triggers are pushed....without thinking about it.

Really if you think about it, this is all our training is designed to do anyway, to put things in our muscle memory so that when certain triggers are pushed we instinctively act in a certain way.

As Larry says, everything else is mental masturbation :)

[KIT]

Same with cops, Kevin. Though folders are usually the blade of choice, when you see where and how some cops carry their folders you know that they won't be able to reach them under pressure, as in a weapon retention situation.

We've done classes on folder deployment, but some people just don't think that way no matter how much you try to show them.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Actually I carry my M9 on my left side as I carry an M4 on my right side and it is easier to drop when my weapon is jamed and draw. I also carry a folder cliped to the front of my left side on the "strong side" which is my left side (because my pistol is there).

In the event of a jam of my rifle, or too close to shoot scenario and I get into the clinch. I drop back my left side, form a frame to gain space, then draw knife, flip open, stab kidneys, kick away, draw pistol, shoot, reholster pistol when safe, clear jam if necesary...and repeat.

A small 6 inch spiderco, or Gerber works best...the ones with the little belt clip that you can clip to the your pants and flip open with your thumb.

Ka-bars are so passe, and SO Marine Urah!

[mikebalko]

Kevin, this is a tanto dori thread, if we are talking about military blades I have a preference for a good old foot long bayonet, it is the closest thing to a tanto so modification of aikido training is not necessary. I have never had any of the problems drawing and using it simultaneously that you list. I would get something like the lil loco or clinch pick in the hardware section of the shivworks site to clean my nails though,lol. Seriously, shuriken serve the same purpose with the added benefit of being a superior projectile weapon.
Kit, I have never met anyone less prepared for their work than cops. Most I have encountered detest martial arts,compliance,combatives,scenario based or weapons retention training of any kind. They think a gun and backup officers make it unnecessary, but still avoid target practice at the shooting range. Since we are going off topic I would say that aikido techniques are better suited for defense against arrest. I do not view them as effective hojo jutsu regardless of the Tokyo riot police adopting Yoshinkan for this purpose,
How is the shodothugress video good randori? Uke is using the same telegraphed attack with a visible weapon from an unnatural stylised stance over and over again. Uke also wades right into kicking/striking distance with munetsuki, this being the reason for resistance and the need for roughness and lack of fluidity in nage's response.
Lynn, how is munetsuki an attack aimed at an area not covered by kiku?The byotoji okegawa do would protect that region!

[Kevin Leavitt]

Mike,

Could you give us a little bit of your background?

What is your experience with military or police?

I am not going to say that there are military members and police officers that don't fit the bill that you describe, but to make that blanket statement, you must have some experience in which to base it on

I personally have issues with a bayonet. One you cannot carry it on your front, it must be carried on the side. In the clinch you must reach back to grab it instead of underneath. you have to unclip it from the sheath, and then there is the foot that you have to pull out of the sheath which essentially telegraphs what you are doing. Then you must proceed to stick not 3 inches or so into a kidney, but a whole foot. They are not sharp, they are heavy, unwieldy, and the blades are too thick.

I prefer a small folding blade.

Personally I don't find much value in tanto dori other than to teach proper aikido foot work and body positioning. Not very good IMO for actual weapons training for me at least...but I train for specific reasons.

[mikebalko]

Family members were cops or worked with them. Trying to convince them or their colleagues to get on the mat was like pulling teeth.
I can carry a bayonet on the front, I'm not using it to stab at close quarters,senban type shuriken are used here, I never find myself in a clinch/hug. What do you mean by unclip it from the sheath?Mine pulls right out like a tanto. Would you consider a iaido draw a telegraphed movement? My bayonet is very sharp, the longer and heavier the better,more damage done, the quicker you drop someone.Unwieldy, no, intimidating, yes. Should distance be created, but not enough to use a fire arm, would you rather have a 3inch bottle opener or a foot of steel? Don't you find it difficult fumbling with folders,even the ones you can open with the thumb of the same hand which is holding the handle awkward in comparison to a battojutsu type draw?
What is the extent of your aikido training,which shihan did you practice with?

[KIT]

....I never find myself in a clinch/hug....

Really? Your military background?


Given a preference, I'd go with the small fixed blade, or assisted opening folder. The issue of extra manipulations with the folder is a very real one.

Carried closer to center, at the belt line or just above ideally. Off side of the sidearm for police, because that is most likely the weapon they will be protecting and thus the hand closest to the knife will be busy when worn same side as the holster, though best case the blade should be accessible to both hands.

This allows you to draw while in clinch without having to drop a hand back behind you or to the side to access a weapon, or to disengage a hand that might be protecting the sidearm from being drawn.

My post above links to information regarding creating the same lines throughout your combative platform, and that is what it is referring to. I don't want to carry any weapons in a way that requires me to alter my other skills in order to access the weapon: i.e. having to put a hand behind me to get to the blade. I shouldn't have to turn, twist or bend to get to it either, though I should be able to get to it if turned, twisted or bent based on the situation.

There are other things you can do to maximize weapons accessibility "in fight," which is where you'll see more aikido stuff come out. Kinda "aiki in the clinch," or perhaps some would say it was just jujutsu. Either way, the idea is movement efficiency.

That efficiency must be tested in live randori incorporating weapons.

Agreed with Kevin re: tanto-dori.

[KIT]

Guys - just another note: when talking about distance "not enough for a firearm" we mean a long gun, right?

You can draw, shoot and keep a handgun retained at chest to chest contact, if you do it right. There are a few approaches to this, and I've done a couple methods in FoF with Sims and they work quite well. Kevin, that's the stuff I was PM-ing you about.

If your AARs are indicating that when our guys are getting up close and personal, they don't use their handguns, this training might be interesting to them.

The average police shooting is within 7-10 feet, and frequently hand to hand fighting immediately preceeds going to gun(s), often during the actual arrest attempt. So shooting at body contact or near body contact is a regular occurrance.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Mike, you carry a bayonet really?

My experiences are with our service bayonets, ka-bars, or the like, obviously I don't like them.

All my reasons to use a knife pretty much involve the clinch. If I am pulling a knife, many, many things have gone very wrong and now we are into a position whereas this has to happen. If I have control and a half a meter or so distance, I am drawing sidearm and firing.

Dropping guys with knifes, maybe, maybe not. I have never done it in real life, thank god! But, I count on the guy NOT dropping right there for a few seconds, more as a disruptive technique to move on to something else.

Aikido Shihan? Mitsugi Saotome Sensei and Aikido Shobukan Dojo and the many, many instructors and wonderful students there, and several of his senior students, Bob Galeone, 5 Dan, Jimmy Sorrentino, 5 Dan, Mike Lasky (on occasion), 6 dan. Off and on over the last 12 years or so as my career lets me!

BJJ/MMA, last 3 years with Rodolfo Amaro, 1st Dan, Gracie Barra, Jacare Cavalcanti, 6 Dan, Rolls Gracie, Roberto Traven, 3rd Dan, Alliance BJJ (Jacare), Steve Van Fleet professional fighter...and any one else I can roll with!

Learned my combatives training through the U.S. Army Infantry School. Level I instructor, Modern Army Combatives, Army Ranger, Class 10-96, various CQB/CQM courses. Light Infantry Platoon Leader, and many, many Urban training operations with the Army over the past 4 years in my current job.

Currently teach BJJ and Army Combatives here at my training center in Germany to U.S and NATO troops as necessary.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Guys - just another note: when talking about distance "not enough for a firearm" we mean a long gun, right?

You can draw, shoot and keep a handgun retained at chest to chest contact, if you do it right. There are a few approaches to this, and I've done a couple methods in FoF with Sims and they work quite well. Kevin, that's the stuff I was PM-ing you about.

If your AARs are indicating that when our guys are getting up close and personal, they don't use their handguns, this training might be interesting to them.

The average police shooting is within 7-10 feet, and frequently hand to hand fighting immediately preceeds going to gun(s), often during the actual arrest attempt. So shooting at body contact or near body contact is a regular occurrance.

We are cretins when it comes to handgun techniques compared to police, we simply don't train them enough, but I am trying to do more of this.

Long guns. yes, that is what i am talking about. Our entry techniques we use M4 carbine preferably, as it is shorter than the old M16s. In our practice we work on scenarios where you enter and someone approaches typically from around 45 degrees and either grabs rifle, or clinches up on it so you can't use it, from there you drop back with strong side, draw knife or handgun, depending on situation/availabiltiy/accessibility and go from there.

Anyway...this is getting off subject I suppose from non-cooperative Tanto Dori.

I think that we have ascertained and discussed where it is important for police/military tactical applications.

[KIT]

All my reasons to use a knife pretty much involve the clinch. If I am pulling a knife, many, many things have gone very wrong and now we are into a position whereas this has to happen. If I have control and a half a meter or so distance, I am drawing sidearm and firing.

Dropping guys with knifes, maybe, maybe not. I have never done it in real life, thank god! But, I count on the guy NOT dropping right there for a few seconds, more as a disruptive technique to move on to something else.



Probably moreso for police RE: knife. Really wrong. But it has happened.

Unfortunately, its maybe/maybe not a stop with handgun, too, which is why counting on him NOT dropping is important. Good stuff.



Long guns. yes, that is what i am talking about. Our entry techniques we use M4 carbine preferably, as it is shorter than the old M16s. In our practice we work on scenarios where you enter and someone approaches typically from around 45 degrees and either grabs rifle, or clinches up on it so you can't use it, from there you drop back with strong side, draw knife or handgun, depending on situation/availabiltiy/accessibility and go from there.

Anyway...this is getting off subject I suppose from non-cooperative Tanto Dori.



Us too, and a few of us still the MP5.

We are on pretty much the same page RE: long gun - I think people don't realize that when you are clearing tiny homes or trailers with long guns that people averting your muzzle or clinching on the weapon is not unusual.

As far as off subject - I think we can make a good argument that these things, at close quarters, are interconnected.

The long guns, kit mounted fixed blade knives, etc. probably have little relevance to most readers, however.

... Rolls Gracie.....

Did you really train with Rolls Gracie!?!?

[Kevin Leavitt]

Heck No! Rolls Gracie passed away in the mid eighties! Jacare was awarded his black belt by Rolls. Didn't mean to give anyone that impression, just that Jacare, got his black belt from him.

I see the thread has been moved to a more appropriate place. Thanks Jun, and sorry for the diversion.

Buildings and trailers and what not are messy. I always use the scenario as why it is important to train ground fighting. You enter a building with night vision googles on, you cannot see well, you trip over the crap on the floor stumble in the room fall down and wham, the guy is on top of you. Your buddy comes in next, can't see hears you yelling and struggling, you hold the guy there in the guard or something until they can secure the room and then he helps you. all this in under 20 seconds!

Here is a good article as an example on MSG Anthony Pryor, 5th SFG.

http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=1689

A good example of an army multiple opponent scenario.

[garry cantrell]

[QUOTE=Kevin Leavitt;172004]Mike, you carry a bayonet really?

Aikido Shihan? Mitsugi Saotome Sensei and Aikido Shobukan Dojo and the many, many instructors and wonderful students there, and several of his senior students, Bob Galeone, 5 Dan, Jimmy Sorrentino, 5 Dan, Mike Lasky (on occasion), 6 dan. Off and on over the last 12 years or so as my career lets me!

Hey Kevin,

Off topic:
Where's Mike Lasky these days? I haven't seen him in forever.

Garry

[Kevin Leavitt]

I am not sure EXACTLY where. I am in Germany so last time I saw him was in Arlington VA at the dojo last year. I believe he is still round the area. Robert Rumpf, and Jimmy Sorrentino will know where he is. I love training with him!

[Jim Sorrentino]

Hi Garry,Off topic:
Where's Mike Lasky these days? I haven't seen him in forever.
Mike is the the Technical Advisor at Aikido of Northern Virginia. He usually comes down four days each week. Sometimes he teaches, sometimes he takes my class (or the class of whoever is teaching). He is a major asset to the dojo. The fact is, there are no other American aikidoka, apart from Saotome-sensei's wife, Patty, who has taken as many classes from Saotome-sensei as Mike has. Please let me know the next time you are in town, and I will make sure that Mike is on the mat.

Jim