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orenb
07-17-2000, 01:48 AM
Hi all,
I was wondering.. if you attempt a Kotegaishi on an uke that has locked his wrist, is there a way to loosen his wrist and still use this technique?

Thanx
Oren

akiy
07-17-2000, 01:55 AM
Sure. Break his or her balance rather than worrying about breaking his or her wrist...

-- Jun

adriangan
07-17-2000, 03:08 AM
If you delivered an atemi to distract your uke, would that help in loosening his locked wrist?

-adrian

George S. Ledyard
07-17-2000, 08:31 AM
orenb wrote:
Hi all,
I was wondering.. if you attempt a Kotegaishi on an uke that has locked his wrist, is there a way to loosen his wrist and still use this technique?

Thanx
Oren
The purpose of atemi is to shift the focus of the attacker's energy away from the place at which you are applying your technique. Saotome Sensei has always said that if your partner knew that you wouldn't strike him, all techniques are stoppable. If you were really fighting the atemi would have been delivered before you attempted the lock. In fact in combat the technique would have been created by the atemi! In normal kihon waza (basic technique) the atemi would come in the instant that the uke began to tighten up to be resistant.

What is important to remember is that it doesn't matter if the uke stops your lock. In the martial arena the arms have two functions. First is to deliver offensive technique to the opponent. Just as important is the second function which is to defend against the offensive moves of that opponent. In order for there to be effective defense there absolutely must be freedom of movement and speed in the defense. The instant that someone tightens up to stop a technique they are no longer capable of using that limb to defend against the strike. By shifting into the available atemi the opponent is forced to go back to a flexible state in order to protect himself. At that point the possibility of a locking technique exists once again.

This is why it is a mistake to ever stop a technique. Inside every technique is a strike that you are choosing not to do. The only safe response to a technique is a reversal. Anything short of a reversal is simply a setup for the strike that is implicit in the technique.

In my mind this is why Aikido people should make a study of atemi. Without atemi you will be forced to rely on the strength of your technique. Power will be the main issue in successful application of technique. But those who have experience in arts that rely on striking know that speed and power come from relaxation. Blows are thrown in combination with no single blow requiring too much commitment. If one approaches his hand technique in the same manner then locks and throws are simply part of larger combination that includes the atemi.

The Philippine art of Kali has pretty much the same locking techniques that we do. Dan Inosanto, who is certified in about 25 different styles of Kali, once told one of my friend that he didn't like to teach the weapons strips and disarms too early in someone’s training because as soon as you did they started trying to do them. His point was that the disarms and stripping techniques are an integral part of the striking pattern. This will be true of locking techniques as well. If you are trying for a lock you will be countered. If you strike the attacker's center HIS TECHNIQUE WILL PRESENT THE LOCK as he defends against the strike. These are two different things and the distinction is what separates practice technique from real martial application.

It is my opinion that there is entirely too much emphasis on grabbing the uke in most Aikido. If you have ever trained with someone who has studied Kali, Silat, Jeet Kun Do, or Wing Chun, all of which have locking and trapping techniques as an integral part of their arts, you will know that these people are experts at stripping a trap. They look at the typical manner that Aikido people execute their techniques with disbelief. They know that the instant they were grabbed in that manner they would have stripped the grab and delivered a counter strike. I think that any Aikidoka really interested in the martial application of Aikido technique should make a study of one of these arts so he can understand what a skilled attacker can really do.

This is why weapons work is so important in Aikido. We don't have much in the way of striking technique, especially combination technique. But we do have a large body of weapons work that points out the real nature of technique as consisting of striking the uke's openings. This doesn't require great physical power. It requires looseness and speed, freedom to move in any direction as the situation demands. This precisely what successful locking and throwing technique requires.


[Edited by George S. Ledyard on July 17, 2000 at 08:37am]

MikeE
07-17-2000, 02:25 PM
I teach in a crosstraining dojo. I get quite a few of the jiu-jitsu people checking out class and they are constantly trying to stop my technique. ( I find this wonderful for realisms sake). Three ways I have combined to "enhance" kotegaeshi is 1)As Jun said break uke's balance. 2) As in all wrist techniques strive to control uke's entire body, i.e. When entering with tenkan against a strike keep uke's wrist at roughly belt level, then when you step backwards it's almost as if you threw him with sumi-otoshi. 3) In the case of an extremely unwilling uke, a little chi-na never hurts. If their hand is in a fist take your hand that circles over uke's fingers and press with your index finger on one of their finger nails. And as always keep weight underside and extend your energy.

akiy
07-17-2000, 03:25 PM
If someone "stops" a technique, they're going to be open to something else like an atemi (as George eloquently explained above) or another technique. This is one of the reasons why I think that jiyuwaza/randori is an important part of everyone's training both as nage and uke.

-- Jun

AikiTom
07-17-2000, 04:56 PM
What an excellent thread so far!! George's post is enough for a nice magazine article by itself!

Not much I could add, other than to share a story. I've practice kotegaeshi with tae kwon do people, and one I was working with had a lot of tension in his arms and wrist. I always try to finish a technique, so the next time I applied atemi to the face which worked (once). He was pretty firmly rooted the next couple times, so I finally feinted a front snap kick to the groin - he screamed, bent forward very fast, totally relaxing his wrist and then went down with kotegaeshi real nice. Not elegant, I admit, but it worked.
The inward squeeze of the finger in a fist described works real well, too.

Chocolateuke
07-17-2000, 10:29 PM
I just learned where all the hits go really nasty. and for kotoegashi I like the nice open hand torward the face and then apllie the throw it works like a charm and if you do it at the same time you feel like you just snaped your fingers and made the uke fall!! Coool!

W^2
07-20-2000, 02:59 PM
A thought provoking bit of information using a kotegaeshi response to a mune tsuki. There are are a number of pressure points located on the forearm ,wrist, and hand. The series on the top inside of the forearm/wrist/hand releases the fist; the point used in this technique is midway between the elbow and wrist. As Nage's leading 'sword hand' makes contact with uke's out-thrust forearm this pressure point is hit. Nage's hand then slides down over the wrist/hand, with the thumb placed just below uke's ring finger. The series of pressure points on the bottom forearm/wrist/hand releases the wrist; the point used in this technique is located in the "V" formed by the bones between the little finger and the ring finger(It is most painful when activated with the tip of nage's thumb).
Of course, Nage could continue to hold this point as the technique is completed(with a standing pin, for example). Upon further investigation you may discover more ["hidden"] Atemi in AIKIDO techniques than you were aware of. Hmmm... (I highly recommend George Dillman's seminars/media)

zen711
08-13-2000, 12:23 AM
dont know if anyones still reading this thread. just wanted to say that what i have been taught is that in reality the wrist turn is actually the least important past of the kotegaeshi technique abnd that it is more important to make sure that you have control of the persons body by using the amr/hand/ whatever to guide their energy down and break the balance. the wrist is used as soemwhat of a safety guard in the end. but if you really need to get that done and someone clenches their fist, match your hand not with the closed fingers, but actually a little below that on the hand so that you are actuaklly pushing on the kuckles, push them forward correctly and the clenched hand will actually open up since, if done right, the pain will be quite hard to avoid

akira
08-13-2000, 09:59 AM
My teacher says that it's not acually the bending and twisting of the persons wrist that gets them down but the cercular movment of the whole body and the slight squat at the end thats so powerfull, so it's your whole body working with this person little wrist... plus aikido is a very pure form of martial arts and without an attack there's NO technique. And yes the "Pie to the face", opened hand not a clenched fist (that stops the flow of ki) helps too.

Axiom
08-13-2000, 10:01 AM
I've actually seen what could be considered a variant of kotegaishi that doesn't even require you to keep your thumb in between their last two knuckles...its sort of hard to explain, and I've only learned it from Ikkyo...imagine you've got someone's arm in ikkyo, but you can't go any furher. So what you do is put the arm that is supporting their elbow over uke's arm, then under to grasp your own wrist. Keep this tight, and twist towards uke. This should, if done correctly, result in a kotegaeshi that doesn't actually require their hand to be in any special position, since it is entirely based on their wrist and elbow. The turnover is a little tricky on this one, but its a nice technique. I think it could be used against a low punch omote, if I were smart enough to figure it out.



If I don't make sense, maybe one of the other posters here can describe it better.

Alex Magidow

akiy
08-13-2000, 05:02 PM
Axiom wrote:
imagine you've got someone's arm in ikkyo, but you can't go any furher. So what you do is put the arm that is supporting their elbow over uke's arm, then under to grasp your own wrist. Keep this tight, and twist towards uke.

We call this juji garame nage at our dojo and sometimes practice it (as you said) as a "failed" ikkyo.

-- Jun

Nick P.
08-14-2000, 09:22 AM
zen711 wrote:
...i have been taught is that in reality the wrist turn is actually the least important past of the kotegaeshi technique abnd that it is more important to make sure that you have control of the persons body by using the amr/hand/ whatever to guide their energy down and break the balance...

Well said zen711
Use your Center to control their Center; Keep that in mind and they can be holding a chainsaw for all you care.

Yo-Jimbo
08-14-2000, 11:05 AM
one thing that teaches the "hip-turn-and-settle" is to move the outside (lateral) hand down with the pinky finger in the crook of their elbow. turn and lower the whole body with this hold. like atemi, this moves interest and attention away from the stiff wrist, but can be a very quick change from the basic technique. forearm "katate" gaeshi is very similar in all respects to kote gaeshi. in jiyu waza, relax and find whatever is there. use your own judgement.

MitchMZ
09-30-2004, 03:25 PM
I try not to think in terms of getting the wrist perfectly every time when I have to apply kotegaeshi quickly. Take for instance a beginner who would not let go of my wrist, I just performed the technique with his hand on my wrist and it actually worked better than me grabbing him because he was so tense. IMO, the type of movement you encounter with kotegaeshi can be used in a large number of ways.

MaryKaye
09-30-2004, 03:59 PM
We don't teach kotagaeshi, but a similar throw, koteoroshi, which is more straight up and down (it's thought to be safer for the wrist, I believe). Koteoroshi is my favorite throw to try to resist, because I feel like I have a handle on how much pain nage is going to cause me. In doing this we've found two things that help:

As several people have said, a lot of these throws work on unbalancing, and will still work even if nothing happens to uke's wrist. For munetsuki koteoroshi I hadve had the best results keeping my hands close to my center and stepping back slightly from uke so that he's stretched out. If you get into this position, the wrist lock is just icing; uke is already going down.

When you do need to move uke via his wrist and not just by unbalancing during the set-up, it helps to think of moving *your* body downward through uke's wrist, not moving uke's wrist. That is, get your hands in position and then instead of pushing down with your arm strength, keep your arms firm but relaxed and drop your whole body downwards. This is mysteriously hard to resist.

Mary Kaye

Shipley
10-01-2004, 08:22 AM
I think that I'm going to print out George's reply and require my students to read it weekly.

Thanks George,

Paul

tedehara
10-01-2004, 10:42 AM
We don't teach kotagaeshi, but a similar throw, koteoroshi, which is more straight up and down (it's thought to be safer for the wrist, I believe)....Mary KayeKote-oroshi was developed from kote-gaeshi. Kote-gaeshi was eliminated from the Ki Society curriculum since it was discovered students were concentrating on the wrist turning motion. There are people who have either strong wrists that you can't turn or others who have extremely flexible wrists who you can turn all the way over.

In both kote-oroshi and kote-gaeshi the important thing is to lead the uke around and then down. If you lead from the fingers then you turn them down before throwing (kote-gaeshi - wrist turning). If you lead from the wrist, you can just drop it (kote-oroshi - wrist drop) at the end of the technique. To my simple way of thinking a kote-oroshi is just a kote-gaeshi done right.

In the Ki Society kote-oroshi is practiced without atemi. However, atemi can be used in both kote-oroshi/kote-gaeshi.

kironin
10-01-2004, 11:32 AM
To my simple way of thinking a kote-oroshi is just a kote-gaeshi done right.

In the Ki Society kote-oroshi is practiced without atemi. However, atemi can be used in both kote-oroshi/kote-gaeshi.


My experience is that we were doing kote-oroshi long before the name change from kote-gaeshi. I was told at the time that the name change was simply to more accurately reflect what we were already doing. That in Japan new students were hearing the description 'kote-gaeshi' and tending to get the wrong idea. For non-native speakers it just is a label change. Nothing changed in how the technique was being taught.

The need for atemi with a resistant uke seems to me a question of how you are moving in relation to uke and whether you have allowed slack to develop. Ideally, if kote-oroshi is done successfully, no slack develops, uke's balance is compromised, and the need for atemi does not arise. If your technique allows slack and/or exposes you to a strike/grabbing range of your opponent then serious atemi is needed as a distraction.

tedehara
10-01-2004, 02:15 PM
My experience is that we were doing kote-oroshi long before the name change from kote-gaeshi.You are making assumptions that may or may not apply. Yes - you probably were doing kote-oroshi before the name change. That does not mean everyone else was, or is doing kote-gaeshi in the same manner.

A good example is what you mentioned later.
...Ideally, if kote-oroshi is done successfully, no slack develops, uke's balance is compromised, and the need for atemi does not arise...What do you mean by slack? Of course I know what you're writing about since we both study the same style. But an average Aikikai student wouldn't. Since Aikikai is not a style but an organization, there are serious differences in the technical way techniques are executed.

What I'm really pointing out is the different experience between Shin Shin Toitsu Do and Aikikai Aikido. Trying to find a common ground and expressing that understanding seems insurmountable at times.

akiy
10-01-2004, 02:45 PM
What do you mean by slack? Of course I know what you're writing about since we both study the same style. But an average Aikikai student wouldn't.
Is there an esoteric definition of "slack" that you use? I read what Craig wrote and (I believe) I understood him and his use of the term "slack". I could be wrong, of course.
What I'm really pointing out is the different experience between Shin Shin Toitsu Do and Aikikai Aikido. Trying to find a common ground and expressing that understanding seems insurmountable at times.
The times I have trained with folks like Kashiwaya sensei or the late Simcox sensei, I was able to get a lot out of what they were saying. I don't think I would have gotten such had I not been on at least some common ground...

-- Jun

Chuck Clark
10-01-2004, 03:01 PM
Jun, there are many of us (even the "average") out in the "aiki wastelands" that know what slack is...

;-))

Janet Rosen
10-01-2004, 03:28 PM
Yeah, even pre-aikido I would have had no problem understanding the concept of "slack" -- as would anybody who has ever played tug or war or tried to haul something!
Also want to say my experience is similar to Mary Kaye: kind of getting heavy/relaxed on uke's wrist or on top of uke's forearm (the exact place of the hand grip less than critical), connecting it to my center, dropping and turning my center is much of my focus with this technique.

kironin
10-01-2004, 04:13 PM
Jun, there are many of us (even the "average") out in the "aiki wastelands" that know what slack is...

;-))


Yes, I didn't think the term 'slack' was that hard to understand. :D

Kashiwaya Sensei's simple demonstation of it is to take a towel hold it between boh his hands. Brings his hands close, the towel droops down,
that's slack. Pulls his hands apart hard so the towel is stretched taut, this is not slack but there is also tension. Relaxes his hands enough so the towel is not stretched but does not droop, this is no slack without being tense.

Now knowing that and seeing it is one thing. It's a challenge to maintain that feeling while performing technique.

best,

MaryKaye
10-01-2004, 08:11 PM
I think that within any style or association you can talk in a shorthand that outsiders will find relatively opaque; but I'm not convinced there is as much difference in the concepts as there is in the vocabulary. A couple of times at Aikikai seminars I've had the pleasing experience of hearing a completely unfamiliar and baffling explanation, and then trying the demonstrated technique and having it click into place as an expression of something I do know.

The people who have thrown me with kotagaeshi, though, have made a clear difference from koteoroshi--they don't let me fall backwards out of the throw, but force me to go forwards over my arm. (I need to learn how to do that properly before someone breaks my wrist.)

One way to learn the unbalancing form of these throws would be to deliberately hold uke's forearm rather than his wrist. Now the wrist control is out of the question, but the unbalancing can still work. Knowing how to do this gives you a fallback if you miss uke's wrist--especially a problem for me if there's a big weapon being waved around.

I used to think koteoroshi was purely an unbalancing throw--that we'd softened it to the point of losing the wrist control completely--but I expressed this view to one of our yudansha, and got the usual sort of learning experience.

Mary Kaye

MikeE
10-01-2004, 11:20 PM
To add to my earlier stuff....

I teach both kote gaeshi and kote oroshi as part of the same. If someone locks their wrist one way they are susceptible to the other and vice versa.

Caveat 1: It is always best to have uke's center... then the rest just happens.

kironin
10-02-2004, 12:12 AM
To add to my earlier stuff....
I teach both kote gaeshi and kote oroshi as part of the same. If someone locks their wrist one way they are susceptible to the other and vice versa.


I think the best in both cases have the slack out and provide a good lead that drops at the end (if you look at old films of a young Tohei performing kotegaeshi you clearly see the twisting locks up the arm by taking the slack out of the forearm and the finish of the throw is a drop). When I have taken ukemi for someone who knows really what they are doing with kotegaeshi it feels quite natural to follow their lead and quite safe to my wrist because they let me know where to go if I am willing to listen. Don't listen and resist and it's quite rough on the body.

darin
10-02-2004, 11:43 AM
When you do irimi senkai turn your body into uke's elbow. If you do it right you will cause enough pain to relax the wrist. Also when uke's balance is broken (he only has one foot on the ground) quickly turn back and apply the throw. Its almost impossible for anyone to resist kotegaeshi if they are off balance. Also doing it this way makes it very difficult for uke to strike you when you apply the throw.

Another method, if uke has a clenched fist try rolling his fist towards him. This also helps when uke doesn't leave his hand out after punching.

I think with most techniques it does help to train with someone who is not afraid of being thrown or has no idea what you are going to do. You probably noticed a technique works fine the first time or so on someone but then becomes difficult.

L. Camejo
10-02-2004, 01:08 PM
When you do irimi senkai turn your body into uke's elbow. If you do it right you will cause enough pain to relax the wrist. Also when uke's balance is broken (he only has one foot on the ground) quickly turn back and apply the throw. Its almost impossible for anyone to resist kotegaeshi if they are off balance.

I've experienced what Darin speaks about here when we do competition style tanto randorigeiko (resistance and counters). Because of the intensity, quickness of the attacks and immediate resistance when one is touched, one often resorts to shortened movements in an attempt to get off technique, such as trying to apply kotegaeshi without getting a good kuzushi first.

However, even if one gets the arm and does not get an immediate kuzushi as Tanto (the person holding the knife) drops weight and resists, the technique still works as long as one does the proper turning motion as Darin indicated to get the kuzushi, even after the attacker has stopped moving forward after the initial tanto thrust and started resisting. In this case application of the "correct" kata form (i.e. longer movements etc.) goes a long way towards making the technique effective in resistance based freeplay.

Just my thoughts, goes back to my focus on effective kuzushi facilitating effective technique, even when things get static.
LC:ai::ki:

Shane Mokry
10-02-2004, 08:27 PM
Good answer Jun!

Shane

MikeE
10-02-2004, 09:37 PM
Craig,

From my training, I think "taking the slack out" to be very important, but also very subjective. It takes on different manifestations depending on lots of variables (especially ukes mentality). I also have tapes of Tohei Sensei performing Kote gaeshi as a younger man, but, to be honest, I don't think I have a masterful understanding of his movement to see exactly what he is doing. And since I wasn't there to experience it, I feel I need to experiment for myself.

I definitely agree with following the energy of a good kote gaeshi. You really are compelled and just do it. But, when someone doesn't have the sensitivity to feel where they should go, you should be able to nudge their Ki in a similar fashion without cranking on them.

My thought is that I only have the right to take what energy is given to me, no more.

kironin
10-02-2004, 11:23 PM
, I don't think I have a masterful understanding of his movement to see exactly what he is doing. And since I wasn't there to experience it, I feel I need to experiment for myself.

I am with you on that. I couldn't agree more.

Where I spent my first my seven years or so training, experimenting for yourself was a big part of learning and I will never forget that example.

I am always looking for that feeling of leading someone into a throw, setting up the inevtiable, bringing someone through even when they try to resist by what's really hard to put in to words, by not contesting with them at any point. No collision. etc. so I don't do any cranking.

CNYMike
10-05-2004, 10:21 PM
.... The Philippine art of Kali has pretty much the same locking techniques that we do ....

Yes, and as a result of practicing the grappling portion of Kali, I came up with two rules of thumb that also apply to Aikido (and maybe other grappling systems):

First, off, the devil is in the details. By this I mean throws and joint lock can be very precise. If you have to get four things right to do a technique and you get three of them right, it might not work right or not at all.

Second, even if you get everything perfect, some people can resist or counter anything. The original poster's uke who can lock his wrist and counter ketegaeshi is one example. Some people can set themselves so well it is difficult or impossible to throw them. There are people who don't feel pain, so joint locks or pressure points may not produce a submission.

So the point I'm trying to make is that if something doesn't work right during training, don't get mad or frustrated. Trust me, that's the wrong way to go. Just remember that the nature of the beast is that you could miss something, or if you don't, your partner may be able to resist it. Don't sweat it, just try to learn from it.

Rupert Atkinson
10-07-2004, 09:03 PM
When you get to the point of applying kote-gaeshi (twisting the wrist) and it doesn't work:

1 You need to re-examine how you got to that point and what you missed out or did wrong - timing / taking balance etc. - the typical answer, and the necessary one to improve your Aiki technique.

2 You also, in my opinion, need to be able to use your body against their wrist in such a way that you can FORCE uke down regardless. Uke has one way out - to fall down away from the PAIN. Otherwise, their wrist will BREAK. It breaks not because you forced it, but because they refused to fall. Once you improve your forcefull method, you will have more confidence at REAL self-defence - the main reason many beginners step into the dojo in the first place (before being bamboozeled by peace and harmony). With this method, it is important to clearly negotiate the training regimen with your partner / class. It is not a nice way to train, and interestingly, after one or two goes at it, ukes fall without resisting too much as, well, it is just too painful to keep resisting!

3 Follows on from '2' in that, if one tech fails (kote-gaeshi), it can be modified by say, quickly applying waki-gatami to break balance and then returning to kote-gaeshi (if it is kote-gaeshi that youreally want to do). In this way, you don't need to stop and start all over again everytime your tech hits a glitch. ... As they say, "How you train is how you fight."

#1 is the best way to improve your tech, and #2 & #3 are also legitimate (necessary even) ways to train, in my opinion.

Note: If you are a beginner, you should not use any force at all, and neither should uke overly resist. In the beginning, you should just learn the shapes and general movement.

Dazzler
10-08-2004, 02:52 AM
When you get to the point of applying kote-gaeshi (twisting the wrist) and it doesn't work:

1 You need to re-examine how you got to that point and what you missed out or did wrong - timing / taking balance etc. - the typical answer, and the necessary one to improve your Aiki technique.

2 You also, in my opinion, need to be able to use your body against their wrist in such a way that you can FORCE uke down regardless. Uke has one way out - to fall down away from the PAIN. Otherwise, their wrist will BREAK. It breaks not because you forced it, but because they refused to fall. Once you improve your forcefull method, you will have more confidence at REAL self-defence - the main reason many beginners step into the dojo in the first place (before being bamboozeled by peace and harmony). With this method, it is important to clearly negotiate the training regimen with your partner / class. It is not a nice way to train, and interestingly, after one or two goes at it, ukes fall without resisting too much as, well, it is just too painful to keep resisting!

3 Follows on from '2' in that, if one tech fails (kote-gaeshi), it can be modified by say, quickly applying waki-gatami to break balance and then returning to kote-gaeshi (if it is kote-gaeshi that youreally want to do). In this way, you don't need to stop and start all over again everytime your tech hits a glitch. ... As they say, "How you train is how you fight."

#1 is the best way to improve your tech, and #2 & #3 are also legitimate (necessary even) ways to train, in my opinion.

Note: If you are a beginner, you should not use any force at all, and neither should uke overly resist. In the beginning, you should just learn the shapes and general movement.

Well...point 1 ...fair enough, if a technique isn't working you need to re-examine it. I can go with that.

Point 3 ...If you feel a technique failing move on to something else...yep, I'll buy that too. Developing a sensitive response to ukes movement is certainly part of what I call Aikido.

Point 2....Force uke down? Using pain compliance / threat of a wrist break?

I don't think agree one bit. If you take ukes hand away from his centre using tai sabaki, tenkan, tora fume movement or whatever floats your boat and at the same time remain centred yourself behind the point of contact you will achieve a dominant position without the primitive requirements you suggest.

Sure pain and bone breaking are effective...but call them by their correct name...jujitsu.

This is not Aikido.

NOTE: If you are a beginner you should not use any force at all. Agree...If you are an expert you should not need to.

Finally kotagaeshi uses the natural movments of the wrist which will bend upwards as will the elbow allowing a pain free kotagaeshi primarily functioning due to balance taking.

And movements against the natural movement of the joints are harmful and not necessary. Even Nikkyo, hijikimeosae and sankyo can all be practiced without need for pain.

Respectfully

D

Does this make me a purist? maybe.

If a purist is someone who feels strongly about a mish mash of ju jitsu, fighting and whatever being passed off as Aikido then, yep I'm a purist.

Proud to be a purist.

George S. Ledyard
10-08-2004, 10:49 AM
2 You also, in my opinion, need to be able to use your body against their wrist in such a way that you can FORCE uke down regardless. Uke has one way out - to fall down away from the PAIN. Otherwise, their wrist will BREAK. It breaks not because you forced it, but because they refused to fall.
I disagree. The kotegaeshi that will produce a wrist break is just one of the various versions as shown by the many posts above. From personal experience training with life long practitioners of Aikido and also some extremely strong and large non-Aikido people (I train a group of club security folks in which the average size in the class is about 260 or so) I can tell you that this is not the one that you want to rely on in a violent sitution.

If you have a highly pain resistant subject he will not go down and you can break his wrist which will have no effect on him and he will keep coming with the other tools he has available. I much prefer a version which will break the subject's balance without worrying about pain or wrist injury. If it is a full out combat situation I can follow up the kotegaeshi with an elbow break using my shin and execute a kick to the subject's head which he can't stop as you control his arm. But a balance break will take priority over a wrist break any day in my book.

Chuck Clark
10-08-2004, 12:20 PM
Amen, George. I suspect that there are a number of us here that are members of the "choir" that have heard this sermon before. Unfortunately, most people can't really believe in this until they've been around someone for some time that can "do it" instead of just talk about it. Defeating structural integrity with movement is the key.

MaryKaye
10-08-2004, 01:01 PM
Other peoples' experience may well be different, but I'm not big or strong, and I would much rather gamble on my ability to unbalance one of my big, strong classmates than my ability to control him with pain or break his wrist. I practice with one guy, six inches taller and maybe a hundred pounds heavier than me, and with very nice, flexible, strong joints. I can take him down pretty consistently with koteoroshi, but heaven help me if I had to actually cause him pain to do it--it takes a *lot* to cause this guy pain. Surely it can be done, but for me unbalancing is a much better bet. That's why I didn't study a harder art in the first place (well, that and a personal dislike of pain).

Some of our 8-12 year olds are quite impressive with koteoroshi: if I try to abuse my higher rank and larger size, they show off their greater skill and slam me. "Well, I've been training for six years," as the ten-year-old said to me yesterday while I picked myself up again.

Mary Kaye

Don_Modesto
10-08-2004, 01:57 PM
....a balance break will take priority over a wrist break any day in my book.

Yeah.

YEAH!

I like it!

Charles Hill
10-08-2004, 05:32 PM
But a balance break will take priority over a wrist break any day in my book.

This is what I understood to be Rupert`s point. I think that he was saying that a wrist break is something that should be understood as well. My experience with beginners, however, has shown that they seize on the easier to understand points to the detriment of the more difficult principles. I try to show and explain the balance break and let them figure out any breakage potential on their own.

Charles Hill

Yokaze
10-09-2004, 03:28 PM
After reading this post, I decided to test the theory by asking some of the strongest (physically) students in the dojo to try to resist kotegaeshi by locking their wrists, slowly at first, then we moved on to full speed.

I found that, so long as you stay extended and calm, instead of trying to force the wrist over, no amount of wrist locking can stop the technique. In fact, the uke reported to me that the wrist locking only made the technique more painful, making them all the more willing to lay down on the mat. That was when we decided to stop our experiment.

The whole point of Ukemi is to learn how to avoid getting hurt. Locking anything is just an invitation to get injured.

Rupert Atkinson
10-09-2004, 11:36 PM
After reading this post, I decided to test the theory by asking some of the strongest (physically) students in the dojo to try to resist kotegaeshi by locking their wrists, slowly at first, then we moved on to full speed.

I found that, so long as you stay extended and calm, instead of trying to force the wrist over, no amount of wrist locking can stop the technique. In fact, the uke reported to me that the wrist locking only made the technique more painful, making them all the more willing to lay down on the mat. That was when we decided to stop our experiment.

The whole point of Ukemi is to learn how to avoid getting hurt. Locking anything is just an invitation to get injured.

I think the above is in accordance with my second point that I kinda guessed would draw criticism. I am not affraid to draw criticism if I see merit with something.

I have trained myself to do kote-gaeshi both the painful way and the more delicate way. Not claiming to be a master at it or anything, but practising with FORCE then moving back a tad can offer a little more insight, both to uke and tori. If you don't try it, you'll never know. I have also found that I can generally resist most Aikidoka's attempts to bend my own wrist - either with brute strength and stubbornness, or with sleight skill. Of course, the stubborn way will hurt more if tori is successful. Also, with a little practice, you can learn to bend uke's wrist in a less painfull way even though there is no attack and no moving balance to disturb, i.e, uke just standing there just clenching his wrist tightly and refusing to budge. But discovering the 'natural way' (NO PAIN) is dependent upon being able to do it the 'hard way' (PAIN) - sounds a bit daft, maybe, but that is what I have found after 20+ years.

I trained in the softer approaches for a long time, always believing it would one day work. Well, it doesn't work like that. Look at Judo - the master can play with you gently like a toy, but they did NOT learn to do that by practising gently. I now believe Aikido to be similar - if you want to be truly good at it. In analysis, it might not BE Aikido in the moment, but I think it can lead to BETTER Aikido.

What I am saying is: Aiki's 'gentle' philosophy can get in the way of 'hard' practical training.

Nothing wrong with the balance break, of course, but it works better if the resultant technique (kote-gaeshi or whatever) can be done with both finesse AND power, or the ability to add power even though you don't add power. To have that choice you need to train it.

PeterR
10-10-2004, 10:14 PM
I found that, so long as you stay extended and calm, instead of trying to force the wrist over, no amount of wrist locking can stop the technique. In fact, the uke reported to me that the wrist locking only made the technique more painful, making them all the more willing to lay down on the mat. That was when we decided to stop our experiment.
Hmm - my experience is completely opposite. Of course resistance is a skill in it's own right. I will say clearly that Kotegaeshi against a resisting (equally matched in size and strength) opponent is damm near impossible without something else (such as kuzushi) coming into play.

I also find myself agreeing with Rupert's point - at least the way I interpreted it.

Most Aikido techniques do not rely on pain compliance and it is possible to train without pain.

Most Aikido techniques can and do have a pain component which may or may not be applied at any one time - pure Aikido (whatever that is) does not exclude them. I think it is a mistake to rely on pain compliance but it is a nice option to have. I also think you have to make some effort to understand the hard training that Ueshiba M. went through before you can understand where he wanted his Aikido to go in his latter years.

I've taken serious ouch from many Aikido teachers in Japan some with serious experience and rank - not only in my style but several others. I really would hesitate to say that they are

mish mash of ju jitsu, fighting and whatever being passed off as Aikido then.

Ian Williams
10-11-2004, 04:13 AM
The people who have thrown me with kotagaeshi, though, have made a clear difference from koteoroshi--they don't let me fall backwards out of the throw, but force me to go forwards over my arm. (I need to learn how to do that properly before someone breaks my wrist.)


Mary, I've seen videos of aikidokas doing that "flip over the arm" Ukemi and frankly it scares the living daylights out of me :) kudos for the people that can flip themselves like that, but wowee it looks scary.

With our "wrist twist". we simply "crumple" (side breakfall) in the direction of the rotation

Dazzler
10-11-2004, 05:15 AM
I've taken serious ouch from many Aikido teachers in Japan some with serious experience and rank - not only in my style but several others. I really would hesitate to say that they are 'a mish mash'.....

.

Pain exists - It can be easily realised through aikido but my view is it is not necessary. Of course used carefully it can help explain the 'practical' application of theoretical practice but if you have to rely on pain alone you are not practicing aikido.

I have no problem discussing practice with anyone . If they are able to convince me of the reasoning for the pain then fine.

I will not allow accept high ranking as reason for poor practice. I have too much respect for the teachings that I have received to ignore the alarm bells that go off when I hear or see such things.

If someone puts said mish mash in front of me I will give my views when appropriate.

If you categorise your previous instruction as such thats your choice. To me you are twisting my words to suggest a slight to your high ranking friends. Never my intention.

To refocuss on this thread I stand my view that pain is not key to kotagaeshi but the blending of movement to draw uke form his centred position into Toris centred position is.

Respectfully

D

L. Camejo
10-11-2004, 08:38 AM
If someone puts said mish mash in front of me I will give my views when appropriate.

Of course this is based on the assumption that you can identify a mish mash when it is placed before you by someone who has been training for a much longer period of time. I don't know what your definition of it may be, but unless one has trained very far and wide in Aikido there are a lot of things that some may look at and say "That is not Aikido", when in fact it very well might be. It's all a matter of perception imo. There are a couple techniques that I have executed in other dojos that people have not seen before in their style of Aikido and ask me the question. In my opinion it depends on what you call Aikido, but this does not mean that this is the only definition of Aikido.

To refocuss on this thread I stand my view that pain is not key to kotagaeshi but the blending of movement to draw uke form his centred position into Toris centred position is.

I agree that pain is not the only key to kotegaeshi, I tend to prefer balance breaking and it's effect on joint to body manipulation and control to get the technique working. I think I remember Shioda saying something about this regarding using the wrist to affect the knees via the torso and as a result Tori's structure, to get an effective kotegaeshi. I believe this concept is propagated in Shodokan as well, with a healthy dose of kuzushi just before doing the wrist fold.

I've always been interested on the word "blending" when used in the context of Aikido technique, it can mean many things sometimes.

In my view I always saw the movement to draw Uke into Tori's centre as a combination of correct Tai Sabaki and Kuzushi in that order. I've found that when one simply blends with the incoming atttack without taking Uke off balance the muscular resistance encountered is pretty much the same as if Tori is standing up straight and tensing his wrist as indicated earlier.

I've seen both Aikido and Jujutsu teachers make this mistake when executing the kotegaeshi where they enter to the outside and apply atemi as an elbow to the ribs by turning, just before they turn in the opposite direction to execute the actual kotegaeshi. During the strike to the ribs/back however, Uke tends to be still in balance, allowing him to just stand there and resist the technique by tensing the wrist. Balance disruption is key for kotegaeshi to work, otherwise all you have is an overly helpful and compliant Uke. May be good for first learning the technique, but terrible for applying the technique under resistant conditions.

Just my thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Ron Tisdale
10-11-2004, 11:16 AM
I've been guilty of what you just mentioned Larry. Still working on it.

Just to give some insight into the pain vs whatever 'mish mash' arguement, please see the following link. Please also note that Mochizuki Sensei was one of Ueshiba Sensei's top early students, and in fact served to 'head up' the uchideshi of the time.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=28259

Ron

L. Camejo
10-11-2004, 04:32 PM
That was a very cool and educative article Ron. Thanks for the link. Reminds me of some concepts I were thinking of some time ago.

LC:ai::ki:

Rupert Atkinson
10-11-2004, 06:49 PM
Good article.

PeterR
10-11-2004, 07:00 PM
To me you are twisting my words to suggest a slight to your high ranking friends. Never my intention.
Darin - I only pointed it out that there are are a number of experienced people whose views of Aikido are distinctly broader.

Basically what Larry said in his last post.

PeterR
10-12-2004, 02:15 AM
By the way Darin - I like the way you express yourself and am a bit remiss that I didn't say welcome to the forums right off.

Its always a joy to debate differences of opinion with someone of experience.

Just to clarify a little more with respect to Kotegaishi since my latter comments were on pain in general.

The key to Kotegaishi is the kuzushi which precedes it. The inclusion of pain in the execution of the technique or any other does not negate it as an Aikido technique.

Dazzler
10-12-2004, 06:46 AM
Of course this is based on the assumption that you can identify a mish mash when it is placed before you by someone who has been training for a much longer period of time.

Larry, I think this is more of an assumption! Don't jump to the defence of whoever you think I'm attacking unless I have actually attacked them! :D :D (I'm working round to that...)

However I have seen some things passed off as aikido that for me were most definitely not and which come much closer to the phrase I am now famous for ...'a mish mash'. ;)

I'll add that length of training is no guarantee of knowledge either but thats a side issue for now. (although my techical base comes from Pierre Chassang who has trained since 1952 so thats long enough for me!..).

Heres what I wrote originally

Point 2....Force uke down? Using pain compliance / threat of a wrist break?

I don't think agree one bit. If you take ukes hand away from his centre using tai sabaki, tenkan, tora fume movement or whatever floats your boat and at the same time remain centred yourself behind the point of contact you will achieve a dominant position without the primitive requirements you suggest.

Sure pain and bone breaking are effective...but call them by their correct name...jujitsu.

This is not Aikido.

My point is that the balance taking is primary to kotagaeshi. Force and pain compliance alone are not aikido.

I am happy with this - It is a free country (well it is where I am) so everyone is entitled to their opinion of this.

If a purist is someone who feels strongly about a mish mash of ju jitsu, fighting and whatever being passed off as Aikido then, yep I'm a purist.

Again - this is not a specific attack on anyone. More of a response to being termed a purist as if it implies narrow mindset. Again I stand by this statement. I have been very fortunate in the training I have received to be able to discern what is and what is not good aiki to a reasonably high level. Pain compliance alone does not qualify as aiki.

No matter how much pain there is...if the kamae is incorrect, shisei is out of balance, maai is wrong, if there is no irimi or if any of the bases is disproportionately represented then it is either not good aiki or not aikido at all.

at the end of the day you can put someone on their rear with a gun...it may well be effective but for me it is not aikido.

PeterR - thank you. I welcome healthy debate and hope to learn from the experience.

I agree that the presence of pain does not invalidate a form as aikido. If this were so it wouldn't be the joy that it is. as long as it remains secondary to the balance taking.

I have been taught that aikido is to bring yin and yang together to release ki. This can take infinite forms.

So despite my strong assertation regarding pain v balance taking I hope I am open minded and recognise fully there are many ways to skin a cat...or uke! :)

Respectfully

D

L. Camejo
10-12-2004, 08:33 AM
Larry, I think this is more of an assumption! Don't jump to the defence of whoever you think I'm attacking unless I have actually attacked them! :D :D (I'm working round to that...)

Hi Daren,

I think you assume much to think that I am jumping to defend anyone or anything. My concept of "What is Aikido" is a continuously evolving thing. I don't think even its founder would have defined it as the same thing all the time. As a manifestation of Yin/Yang interaction it is by nature infinite in expression while always exhibiting certain core principles. Of course many don't even agree on what these core principles may be, but it still does not mean that one who has not walked in their shoes can define what they do or not do as Aikido. Just my opinion.:)

As you said it is a free country and I am expressing my opinions as anyone else. If you feel attacked I am sorry as that is not the case, I'm merely seeking answers and challenging things that seem to have openings.

However I have seen some things passed off as aikido that for me were most definitely not and which come much closer to the phrase I am now famous for ...'a mish mash'. ;)

So have I, and I agree that there are mish mash so-called systems out there that are called a lot of different names, including Aikido and it's paiful to look at. I guess I try not to be too judgmental since the one thing I've realised is that I don't know everything.

I'll add that length of training is no guarantee of knowledge either but thats a side issue for now. (although my techical base comes from Pierre Chassang who has trained since 1952 so thats long enough for me!..).

I agree with that. As someone's signature here says - "Perfect practice makes perfect". In this light one can train for one year or a century in incorrect methods, it does not change the fact that they are practicing bs.

My point is that the balance taking is primary to kotagaeshi. Force and pain compliance alone are not aikido.

Now this is far more precise as compared to your inital statement. Makes perfect sense now.:)

Again - this is not a specific attack on anyone. More of a response to being termed a purist as if it implies narrow mindset. Again I stand by this statement. I have been very fortunate in the training I have received to be able to discern what is and what is not good aiki to a reasonably high level. Pain compliance alone does not qualify as aiki.

Personally I have not met any purists in anything who don't have their heads buried very very far up their own a$$, but when someone can experience the breadth of what is out there and maintain their purism not because of cloistered myopia, but as a result of truly having seen the myriad of expressions and knowing what they do to be true, then this is the person I deem a true and respectable purist. Of course since martial arts like Aikido come out from other martial arts and in fact are a combination of concepts from these styles and other things, how do we distill what is pure? Is the dojo who practice 80% bokken and jo less pure than the one who practices 60% meditation and suwari waza?

No matter how much pain there is...if the kamae is incorrect, shisei is out of balance, maai is wrong, if there is no irimi or if any of the bases is disproportionately represented then it is either not good aiki or not aikido at all.

Well I agree it may not be good "Aikido" (the budo). Being good "Aiki" (the budo concept) is another thing entirely, the latter being a concept that has been applied outside of "Aikido" for centuries before its creation.:) One may be able to apply Aiki without irimi for example, it depends greatly on the dynamics of the particular situation.

Back to kotegaeshi and kuzushi - I've encountered schools where the kotegaeshi starts with the normal forward kuzushi bringing Uke off balance forward to one side, and the twist is done taking the arm back towards the shoulder of Uke and past it to effect the throw, so his hand goes back in the direction from which his body just came, along the same line. Seagal did this in his "Aikido demo" at the beginning of Nico. Imo when one brings the wrist back towards and in line with the shoulder of Uke he infact negates the effect of the kuzushi that takes Uke off balance while moving forward. During the interval when the wrist is taken back towards Uke's shoulder and body Tori actually restores Uke's posture after having broken it a split second earlier. At this point Uke can effectively negate the technique by tai sabaki or muscular tension.

What do you folks think? The way we do it is to constantly move our body in the direction of the kuzushi while twisting the wrist, so the effect of the wrist twist on Uke's body is maintained but Uke is not restored to balance in the midst of it by Tori.

Just some thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Dazzler
10-12-2004, 09:04 AM
Hi Larry

An excellent response. I shall take great care in future to avoid suggesting any assumptions on your part with or without my tongue fimly in cheek. :)



Back to kotegaeshi and kuzushi - I've encountered schools where the kotegaeshi starts with the normal forward kuzushi bringing Uke off balance forward to one side, and the twist is done taking the arm back towards the shoulder of Uke and past it to effect the throw, so his hand goes back in the direction from which his body just came, along the same line. Seagal did this in his "Aikido demo" at the beginning of Nico. Imo when one brings the wrist back towards and in line with the shoulder of Uke he infact negates the effect of the kuzushi that takes Uke off balance while moving forward. During the interval when the wrist is taken back towards Uke's shoulder and body Tori actually restores Uke's posture after having broken it a split second earlier. At this point Uke can effectively negate the technique by tai sabaki or muscular tension.

What do you folks think? The way we do it is to constantly move our body in the direction of the kuzushi while twisting the wrist, so the effect of the wrist twist on Uke's body is maintained but Uke is not restored to balance in the midst of it by Tori.

Just some thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

I've also encountered issues where kotagaeshi is too linear and thus restores ukes balance.

Our methodology to cover this is to draw the wrist away from ukes centred position towards toris centre, drawing it down to the side, as we turn back to uke (assuming ura technique) we keep the wrist outside of ukes centre line and continue our spiral back to an imaginary third point behind uke rather than 'in line with the shoulder'.

We also keep the level of the kotagaehi at chudan/gaedan level to reduce risk of returning uke to upright posture.

For those that think in terms of spiralling energy the wrist/hand follows a spiral down and out of ukes centre then spirals up again before spiralling back down to the third point.

By using the spiral the control of balance is maintained and the opportunity for uke to lock up against a straight movement is reduced.

I think this is similar to your final suggestion?

Thanks again for reply.

Respectfully

D

kironin
10-12-2004, 09:24 AM
Back to kotegaeshi and kuzushi - I've encountered schools where the kotegaeshi starts with the normal forward kuzushi bringing Uke off balance forward to one side, and the twist is done taking the arm back towards the shoulder of Uke and past it to effect the throw, so his hand goes back in the direction from which his body just came, along the same line. Seagal did this in his "Aikido demo" at the beginning of Nico. Imo when one brings the wrist back towards and in line with the shoulder of Uke he infact negates the effect of the kuzushi that takes Uke off balance while moving forward. During the interval when the wrist is taken back towards Uke's shoulder and body Tori actually restores Uke's posture after having broken it a split second earlier. At this point Uke can effectively negate the technique by tai sabaki or muscular tension.

What do you folks think? The way we do it is to constantly move our body in the direction of the kuzushi while twisting the wrist, so the effect of the wrist twist on Uke's body is maintained but Uke is not restored to balance in the midst of it by Tori.


I don't know about the film example you give but
any technique form where that is allowed to happen is a mistake.
Koichi Tohei Sensei has been very clear about that.

like you, that is a very clear expectation in our practice.

Rupert Atkinson
10-12-2004, 10:42 PM
Discussions like this help define one's own technique, and to understand others. Of course, it is wise to listen to those of many years experience, but at the end of the day you need to sort your own techniques out and rationalise them in your own mind. Your instructor can help, of course, but more often than not, one instructor has one way whereas another instructor has another - and often people clash or disagree in argument, yet sometimes both can be valid principles. Personally, I have trained in quite a few dojos and have seen variations on many techniques that some would claim are ' the only way to do it.' As I said, the only way for solution is to sort it out and rationalise it in your own mind and then put it into practice. If you only 'do' and never 'think' you will not advance far.

Mato-san
09-25-2008, 07:57 AM
Is there an esoteric definition of "slack" that you use?
-- Jun
That was taught to me as "Yurumi" took a while but I eventually worked out it ment "slack" or roughly the give that you get in the skin before the connection for a waza physically is fully effective and/or apparent.

Shane Marcum
10-11-2008, 12:02 AM
Hi all,
I was wondering.. if you attempt a Kotegaishi on an uke that has locked his wrist, is there a way to loosen his wrist and still use this technique?

Thanx
Oren

One of my instructors, Tony Graziano Sensei (4th Dan), explained an interesting point relating to Kotegaeshi. If you picture Uke's "Ikkyo Curve" in your mind (the curved line between Uke's two outer shoulder points running across Uke's back), then picture that line extending out from the shoulders. As you apply your Kotegaeshi, turn the hand and move it on that line. It's unbelievable how much more effective Uke's compliance will be. It works especially well on a highly resistant Uke!

Don_Modesto
10-11-2008, 01:20 PM
One of my instructors, Tony Graziano Sensei (4th Dan), explained an interesting point relating to Kotegaeshi. If you picture Uke's "Ikkyo Curve" in your mind (the curved line between Uke's two outer shoulder points running across Uke's back), then picture that line extending out from the shoulders. As you apply your Kotegaeshi, turn the hand and move it on that line. It's unbelievable how much more effective Uke's compliance will be. It works especially well on a highly resistant Uke!

Or, another way, don't focus on the hand, focus on SHIKAKU (http://www.aikiweb.com/language/vocab.html). Positioning is far more critical than torqueing.

Shany
10-11-2008, 02:53 PM
You can all write about "what to do" and what "not to do" theoretically, but in fact, if in this example the attack (gote gaeshi) has been stoped (via force/whatever from he uke/real person) than:

If you're stronger, you'll apply more pressure to the wrist.
If you're smarter you will break his balance.
If you're in unknown situation/afraid, kick him in the nuts (exit attack usually used in krav maga and probably others and have been found most effective in real life situations)