"Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

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Bill Witt in Spotsylvania, Va. - Dec. 5-6 at new Shin Dojo. Witt Shihan's 15th visit to Virginia

[akiy]

Dear AikiWeb Members,

I have just created a new Non-Aikido Martial Traditions (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=78) forum in the AikiWeb Forums.

Please direct all discussions on martial traditions not specifically regarding aikido into this forum. This includes topics based on "aiki" concepts rooted outside of aikido proper, discussions which rely upon non-aikido jargon, and threads otherwise focusing on non-aikido martial traditions. Both the explicit content as well as the implicit intent of each topic will be considered.

I ask for your cooperation in moving and starting discussions of these kinds to the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=78) forum from now on; please respect these wishes as a part of your responsibiliy in participating in the AikiWeb community.

Thank you,

-- Jun

[Mark Murray]

Dear AikiWeb Members,

I have just created a new Non-Aikido Martial Traditions (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=78) forum in the AikiWeb Forums.

Please direct all discussions on martial traditions not specifically regarding aikido into this forum. This includes topics based on "aiki" concepts rooted outside of aikido proper, discussions which rely upon non-aikido jargon, and threads otherwise focusing on non-aikido martial traditions. Both the explicit content as well as the implicit intent of each topic will be considered.

I ask for your cooperation in moving and starting discussions of these kinds to the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=78) forum from now on; please respect these wishes as a part of your responsibiliy in participating in the AikiWeb community.

Thank you,

-- Jun

Hi Jun,

Out of everything here, I finally find one thing I disagree with. Not bad, really. But that disagreement is the name of the new forum. As I posted on the other thread, it relegates everything in this new forum as not belonging to aikido at all. In one stroke, all debate is done and over. None of the "aiki" topics being discussed will ever be seen as part of aikido. No one will view threads in this topic as having any importance at all in the aikido world. I would rather have seen the forum titled "Non-Traditional Aikido" than this. Any possibility of a name change?

Thanks,
Mark

[Cady Goldfield]

How about the "It's Aikido, Jim, but not as we know it" Forum?

;)

[Ecosamurai]

Dear AikiWeb Members,

I have just created a new Non-Aikido Martial Traditions (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=78) forum in the AikiWeb Forums.

Thank you Jun :)

Mike Haft

[Jorge Garcia]

Dear AikiWeb Members,

I have just created a new Non-Aikido Martial Traditions (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=78) forum in the AikiWeb Forums.



Thank you Jun.

Jorge

[dps]

I was not visiting the forum as much as I would like to because the discussion seemed more and more not to be about Aikido. Thanks Jun.
David

[akiy]

Hi Mark,
Any possibility of a name change?
At his moment, no.

-- Jun

PS: I do appreciate your thoughts, though. Thank you...

[Mark Murray]

Hi Mark,

At his moment, no.

-- Jun

PS: I do appreciate your thoughts, though. Thank you...

Thanks for taking the time to read them and thanks for moving the other thread to training. We do the best we can with what we have. :)

Mark

[Nicholas Eschenbruch]

Thank you Jun,
I hope this helps to keep some contributors who I find very inspiring and who were apparently about to withdraw.
Nicholas

[Alec Corper]

Why? There are already sites for other MA. I thought this was Aiki Web. Either it's related or not, if not why not go elsewhere, E-Budo, for example? Sorry Jun, I think its very courteous and an "aiki" like non-conflictual compromise, I just don't always think that compromise is the best answer. The tree that bends too far sometimes just snaps.

[akiy]

Hi Alec,

Thank you for your thoughts. If you are not interested in reading the posts in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum, please use the recently announced Exclude Forums from View (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12083) feature.

-- Jun

[Ellis Amdur]

If this were cut-and-dried, it would be easy, wouldn't it? But -
Where does the aiki in aikido stop and the aiki in Daito-ryu begin?Is the aiki in aikido similar to the jin/chi in Chinese martial arts? If not, why did Ueshiba rely on Chinese philosophical concepts to describe so much of what he did? If one puts an arm-bar or wrist lock on someone, is it intrinsicly different when done by an aikidoka or a jujutsuka or karateka? If Osensei was doing something different from his followers, what was it? (BTW - Is it possible that the world benefits far more from the changes that his son et al made than if aikido continued in the vein that Osensei taught?) And I'm not asking for answers to these rhetorical questions, just outlining the dilemma.
We have a situation where a site devoted to the discussion of aikido naturally draws in connections - by history, similarity of function, etc. At the same time, it's gotten obvious that the creative ferment has not been entirely productive, with a lot of ugly, personal references, etc.
Seems to me that "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" is the PERFECT name. A) For those folks who honestly wish to confine the discussion to "orthodox" aikido matters, (there will be cross-over, regardless, they know where not to go B) For those who have a more fluid, inclusive - or from another perspective, more fundamental(ist) - definition, they come to this forum. Given that some people prefer to call such things Ueshiba-ha Daito-ryu :), perhaps this really is fitting. And if in the process, some readers say, "Wait a minute, shouldn't this be my aikido?" Wonderful. I think the name thereby provokes the right questions. Whereas if people get huffy about being sectored off, it begs the question, in my mind, if such folks are getting a touch missionary in approach. I get as tired of phrases like, "If you want to devote yourself to twenty years of twisting wrists," as I do "You are talkign about resistence. Osensei never resisted."
Actually, I do have a better name - The "Popular Body Mechanics" forum - How to do, rather than all the rest of the personal insinuation and huffy outrage.
And it seems to me that tact requires two things.
1. For those who find this subject interesting, this is the place to post and be enthusiastic and provocative. Personally, I'm interested in reading about the skills and the exercises and the history. I am not interested in the least in the semantic debates and arguments about whether it works or is real or needs to be felt, or whether current aikido is a valid martial art with or without such skills. That's been done to death and ground into the pavement!
2. For those who find this subject overly provocative, IGNORE. For example, the Baseline Skills thread could easily be cut down to three pages, rather than it's current 39, if we went only by real information rather than sterile debate and shrill, school-girl level arguments.

Best

[Ron Tisdale]

Nice post Ellis, thanks for that!

Best,
Ron

[Ron Tisdale]

George, Another good one...

I think the suggestion of another sub-forum is a good one, and I'd like to thank Jun for trying it out. I really don't care what it's called, and it doesn't bother me at all if good *aikido* discussions take place in it that others miss because they don't want to go there. That's their choice, they have the right to make it, and we'll get along fine without them. Maybe from time to time, they'll take us off ignore and take a peak.

More importantly, maybe some of the diversionary tactics can cease now, and we can get back to some darn good discussions...

Best,
Ron

[Cady Goldfield]

Nice post Ellis, thanks for that!

Best,
Ron

Except for the "school girl" reference... :p Since I'd contend that it was mainly "school boys" doing the shrill stuff. ;)

[Mary Eastland]

Thank you, :)
Mary

[Alec Corper]

Thank you for your thoughts. If you are not interested in reading the posts in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum, please use the recently announced Exclude Forums from View feature.
I'll try again, either its related or its not. If it is, why a separate forum? If its not, what the hell is it? I wont be ignoring it, I just cant see the point of the division, but I won't mention it again.

[Ellis Amdur]

Hi Alec - Is Daito-ryu related to aikido? Yes - - - - and - - - no. Is Daito-ryu related to koryu? Yes - - - - and - - - - no. Is Aikido related to Chinese martial arts. Yes - - - -- and - - - - no. To karate? Yes - - - and - - - no. It seems that, for many readers of the blogs, the "no" shade far outweighed the "yes" in a number of threads, and the "yea sayers" were saying, "No, it's yes." And that, some found quite aggravating. Particularly when the "yes-sayers" added so many negatives. And on the contrary, the "no" sayers often said "no" to the "yes" sayer with the "no" in the middle in such a way that the "yes - sayers" said "no way." Given that aikido IS the "way," this caused some problems, because the "yes" sayers said they were either on the way, found the way or showing the way, and the "no-sayers" found this to be way out there, that the way was Osensei's, and the "yes-sayers" said that this was, in fact true, but the "no-sayers" and the "yes-sayers" found that the truths they agreed upon were diametrically opposed to one another.
This is not to say that you cannot say "no" or "yes" on the new subsection or the old, but everyone is asked to be both direct (irimi) and (courteous) tenkan about it - something we all can agree on, yes?

Best

[gdandscompserv]

And that my friends pretty much wraps it up.
Thanks Ellis.:D

[Thomas Campbell]

Hi Alec - Is Daito-ryu related to aikido? Yes - - - - and - - - no. Is Daito-ryu related to koryu? Yes - - - - and - - - - no. Is Aikido related to Chinese martial arts. Yes - - - -- and - - - - no. To karate? Yes - - - and - - - no. It seems that, for many readers of the blogs, the "no" shade far outweighed the "yes" in a number of threads, and the "yea sayers" were saying, "No, it's yes." And that, some found quite aggravating. Particularly when the "yes-sayers" added so many negatives. And on the contrary, the "no" sayers often said "no" to the "yes" sayer with the "no" in the middle in such a way that the "yes - sayers" said "no way." [snip]

This is not to say that you cannot say "no" or "yes" on the new subsection or the old, but everyone is asked to be both direct (irimi) and (courteous) tenkan about it - something we all can agree on, yes?

Best

Ellis:

The City of Seattle should have hired you to publicize the vote on the waterfront viaduct that concludes tomorrow.

For those forum readers who may not know (or care), Seattle's waterfront elevated freeway was damaged by the 2001 earthquake. For six years, politicians have been debating whether to repair it or tear it down, and if torn down, whether to replace it with a new, larger viaduct, a tunnel (a la Boston), a bridge across the harbor, or improved local street traffic patterns and mass transit. The City Council finally pitched the matter to the voters with an advisory ballot on which the voters can voice their "yes" or "no" on two separate issues: build a new viaduct (yes/no); build a tunnel (yes/no). That's right . . . one voter could vote to build both a viaduct and a tunnel.

$1.5 million of local taxpayer money spent on this . . .
http://seattle.metblogs.com/archives/2007/03/seattle_voters.phtml

That kind of money might have been better spent getting Dan Harden, Mike Sigman and Erick Mead together in the same room . . .

[Mark Murray]

Hi Alec - Is Daito-ryu related to aikido? Yes - - - - and - - - no. Is Daito-ryu related to koryu? Yes - - - - and - - - - no. Is Aikido related to Chinese martial arts. Yes - - - -- and - - - - no. To karate? Yes - - - and - - - no. It seems that, for many readers of the blogs, the "no" shade far outweighed the "yes" in a number of threads, and the "yea sayers" were saying, "No, it's yes." And that, some found quite aggravating. Particularly when the "yes-sayers" added so many negatives. And on the contrary, the "no" sayers often said "no" to the "yes" sayer with the "no" in the middle in such a way that the "yes - sayers" said "no way." Given that aikido IS the "way," this caused some problems, because the "yes" sayers said they were either on the way, found the way or showing the way, and the "no-sayers" found this to be way out there, that the way was Osensei's, and the "yes-sayers" said that this was, in fact true, but the "no-sayers" and the "yes-sayers" found that the truths they agreed upon were diametrically opposed to one another.
This is not to say that you cannot say "no" or "yes" on the new subsection or the old, but everyone is asked to be both direct (irimi) and (courteous) tenkan about it - something we all can agree on, yes?

Best

ROTFL, I actually followed most of that. Scary. ;)

Thanks,
Mark

[Ellis Amdur]

Hi Cady and Mary -

Actually, it was my wife who came up with the "school-girl" reference. She was reading over my shoulder the other day - one of these threads that have led to this solution and she said, "Ellis, why is it that all these big tough martial artists talk to and about each other like a bunch of junior high school girls?"
I replied, " - - - - - - - - - -Uh - - - ummm" :straightf

[Cady Goldfield]

Perhaps your wife hung out with girls either exclusively or at least much more than boys, and so the distaff was her main or only frame of reference. I was a tomboy and hung out with guys, and believe me, they could be shrill and whiney to the nth degree!

But remember, you gots to be a member of the minority to use the pejorative terms about said minority. Your wife can make reference to school girls with impunity. But you, fella, well, you know... ;)

[Ellis Amdur]

I never had the chance to hang out with boys, having been raised by wolves.

[dps]

Hi Cady and Mary -

Actually, it was my wife who came up with the "school-girl" reference. She was reading over my shoulder the other day - one of these threads that have led to this solution and she said, "Ellis, why is it that all these big tough martial artists talk to and about each other like a bunch of junior high school girls?"
I replied, " - - - - - - - - - -Uh - - - ummm" :straightf

Sounds like your wife could be a candidate for moderator for the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions Forum.

David

[Upyu]

Jun,
Why don't you just create an "Internal Mechanics" Forum?

It's not about Aikido, or Chen style, Wu Style, Long Dong Style, Silat, Karate, Hakyokuken, Taikyokuken, Akitaken,Miyagiken, etc.

The way I see it, we only have two arms, two legs, a head, so there's only so many ways you can come up with efficient movement.

The only people caught up in the trappings of style and reigi are the mediocre ones.
(Counting through just japanese examples lets see...the Prez of Honda, Oda Nobunaga, Hideyoshi, Ieyasu(damn, that's three in a row :D), Takeda Soukaku, Ueshiba (someone correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe he pissed off Takeda at some point), Sagawa (but he was a cranky geezer to begin with), Musashi etc etc etc.

"Then why not just take your "#$t to another board?"
Well, because it seems the discussions and debate are happening right here, right now. Frankly if it weren't for your board we wouldn't be airing out the dirty laundry <so to speak> like we are now.
If it weren't for you and your board we wouldn't have had a lot of these get togethers, and some people might not have had the inspriations they've had as a result of what's come to pass so far. ;)

摩擦は進歩の母だよ；）
Masatsu ha sinpo no haha dayo.

[gdandscompserv]

I think its good that the frustration comes out and people argue. The only people that drop out with a huff are people that weren't really driven to find what they don't have, or they already got all the goods and they stand back to have a good laugh at us teenageers bickering amongst ourselves :D
Somehow I find the latter less likely.

Its all in good fun, even if you get the occasional w"#$"ker like... oh wait I'm supposed to keep it clean, so I'll refrain from posting names:cool:
So nice of you to refrain from posting my name.:D
I too think it's a good thing that the frustration comes out. Once that's out of the way one can begin learning.

[Upyu]

So nice of you to refrain from posting my name.:D
I too think it's a good thing that the frustration comes out. Once that's out of the way one can begin learning.

Believe it or not I wasn't referring to you at all :cool:
You give yourself too much credit :D

The guy I was referring to begins with a "J" ends with...
oops given away too much already :p

[akiy]

Why don't you just create an "Internal Mechanics" Forum?
Thank you for your suggestion. For now, I will keep things the way they are currently.

-- Jun

[Mary Eastland]

Hi Cady and Mary -

Actually, it was my wife who came up with the "school-girl" reference. She was reading over my shoulder the other day - one of these threads that have led to this solution and she said, "Ellis, why is it that all these big tough martial artists talk to and about each other like a bunch of junior high school girls?"
I replied, " - - - - - - - - - -Uh - - - ummm" :straightf
My thank you was to Jun,
Talking about sexist references is like spitting into the wind...:)
Mary

[Thomas Campbell]

Non-Aikido Marital Traditions Forum
(cf. just about the most common typo on martial arts forums).

[akiy]

Hi Thomas,

You made me check...

-- Jun

[Tim Fong]

Jun,
It's too bad you decide yet again to move a thread about aikido into the "non-aikido martial traditions" forum.

[akiy]

It's too bad you decide yet again to move a thread about aikido into the "non-aikido martial traditions" forum.
(For clarity and for reference, Tim is referring to the thread located at http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12107)

I appreciate your thoughts, but I disagree with your assessment that the thread in question was about "aikido" as, in my view, the thread's implicit intent was not to discuss the art of aikido. For me, at least, there is a big difference between a subject that may be beneficial to people practicing aikido and the subject of aikido itself.

In any case, I have outlined my thoughts regarding the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum in the first post (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=171492&postcount=1) of this thread.

-- Jun

[mriehle]

See, I think this is a wonderful idea. I like some of the discussion of non aikido stuff, but too many of them became personal flame wars in recent days. Unfortunately any real information in them was lost to the acrimony.

Some of that, I think, may have been due to the nature of the forums where the discussions occured.

So, I'll be checking out this forum, but now I feel several times more justified in ignoring people who attempt to turn worthwhile discussions into personal vendettas.

[akiy]

Hi folks,

Can you please take discussions not pertaining directly to the formation of the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum outside of this thread? Thanks.

-- Jun

[rob_liberti]

I just noticed this. Call discussions about learning internal skills and aiki non-aikido if you like, but there is no stoppping it...

Here I am an aikido-a-holic for decades, and I am convinced that what Dan Harden is doing in his non-aikido martial tradition is the same aiki as what Gleason sensei does in aikido. I've been promoted to yondan by the same teacher that is Jun's teacher. I teach at 3 ASU aikido schools. I will be teaching a lot of what Dan shows me AS AIKIDO in Jun's own organization - heck even to interested people in his dojo eventually. The bottomline here is that it's happening... No stopping it now. Call it what you like... I just appreciate having a place to discuss things even if they are improperly named.

Rob

[akiy]

Hi Rob,

I do not think things are "inappropriately named" at all. If a discussion centers or is based on a martial tradition other than aikido, regardless of how appropriate such may be in aikido, I am asking that they be discussed in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum. As you write, there is a specific forum for discussions of that nature. I would appreciate it if you could respect my wishes as the owner of this website.

As far as my own training in my own dojo and organization goes, I do not care to go into personal discussions of that nature and I would hope you are able to respect such boundaries yourself. I do not represent my dojo nor organization here on my website and I do not appreciate this odd "appeal to authority" argument that you are posing.

Best,

-- Jun

[rob_liberti]

I wrote "improperly named" not "inappropriately named". Improper just was supposed to send the message that I think you made a mistake. Inappropriate seems to send the message that I think you are making the mistake on purpose os something - which wasn't the intended message. But maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Jun, of course I respect your opinion as the web site owner. I appreciate your providing the site as a place to discuss aikido to a certain level of depth.

I didn't intend to appeal to authority. I just question why my opinion coming from similar background (which I will no longer discuss - I didn't know it was taboo) is just unilaterally dismissed as wrong. For instance, when I post in the aikido techniques section about kotegaeshi and that post gets put somewhere else that is called non-aikido, I wonder who is anyone to say that my opinion of the depth of an aikido technique - no matter what the source of that opinion is - is not aikido. My aikido teacher seems to agree that the aiki I'm learning from alternative sources is the same aiki in aikido.

People discuss aikido insights that they got from training BJJ and MMA and that doesn't get ripped out of the forums and placed in non-aikido martial traditions thread do they?

Will I live with such decisions? Sure. I guess I kind of wonder here something like if you don't want feedback about such things, why there is a section in the forum for feedback about the subject in the first place.

Regardless, I'll drop it. My opinion is that more and more people will see things my way and things will work themselves out.

Rob

[eyrie]

I thought it was quite clear...
Can you please take discussions not pertaining directly to the formation of the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum outside of this thread?

A simple request really... and in keeping with the thrust of the first post (http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=171492&postcount=1) of this thread.

I think Ellis's post #12 quite eloquently says it all. So, to prevent further misunderstandings, perhaps this thread should be locked, as any further discussion regarding the formation of the NAMT forum is moot.

[Aikibu]

Thanks Jun.

Now I can talk about automatic weapons employment without any guilt. :D

William Hazen

[rob_liberti]

I thought it was quite clear...

A simple request really... and in keeping with the thrust of the first post (http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=171492&postcount=1) of this thread.

I think Ellis's post #12 quite eloquently says it all. So, to prevent further misunderstandings, perhaps this thread should be locked, as any further discussion regarding the formation of the NAMT forum is moot.

geeze fine... what was unclear is why my opinion of "directly" related to aikido suddenly was wrong.

I kind of got the feeling over the years that THE most offensive thing you could do on aikiweb was tell someone that they weren't doing "aikido" at all.

I've so far stated that about 1 teacher - took hell for it (not from Jun), and didn't back down becuase the world should know when a 3rd kyu claims 8th dan and hangs a shingle.

I'm not saying the people not learning aiki in a more direct way are not doing aikido - just approaching it slower like I did for decades.

Honestly, I was just at a knife combat class with Gleason sensei - and you won't see me writing how that IS aikido. I have a fairly good idea based on lots of real hard work and experience what is aikido and what is non-aikido.

That amount of life-effort into something, when shared, and then dismissed as "non-aikido" sends kind of a invalidating feeling as opposed to being "all huffy" as Ellis discussed in your favorite post there, Ignatius. But to be honest I would have been a lot happier with Ellis's idea in calling it the "Popular Body Mechanics" forum or even "unpopular body mechanics" forum - basically anything not unilaterally dismissing what I am teaching as aikido in my aikido class as non-aikido.

Rob

[Cady Goldfield]

Rob,
Maybe you now have a deeper appreciation for what Galileo had to face! ;)

[DH]

I kind of got the feeling over the years that THE most offensive thing you could do on aikiweb was tell someone that they weren't doing "aikido" at all.
I have a fairly good idea based on lots of real hard work and experience what is aikido and what is non-aikido.
- basically anything not unilaterally dismissing what I am teaching as aikido in my aikido class as non-aikido.
Rob

I am mindful of a really great line from a really bad film Shogun When the Daimyo (himself planning to take over Japan as Shogun) asks the pirate Captain.
"When is rebellion not considered a crime?"
"When you win."
"Yes" smiles the soon to be Shogun. "That is the correct answer. When you win."


1988 Ueshiba family states he trained in many Koryu to make Aikido and "he did a little Daito ryu too.
2008 I thought everybody knew it was from Daito ryu. His first dojo was ONLY doing Daito ryu. Oh.... you must mean in the old days when people didn't know Ueshiba studied nothing in depth BUT Daito ryu

so now we have
2003 What is aiki? What is ki? What do you mean it was lost? It's in Daito ryu?? Its in Taiji?? Its the same stuff Ueshiba did and aikido people don't know it?? What??
Grand debates, fights, testing, meet-ups and revelations on a grand scale led to
2008 What was called untrue is already being trained by several teachers in Aikido, all of whom apparently think it was and is the aiki in aikido all along.

2020? "What? I thought everybody knew this was aiki"....
Oh You must mean in the old days when Aikido people didn't know how to train Aiki.

Because it is so profound, aiki training is simply going to change the face of aikido as it is currently known. No one having felt it will not want to learn it. It was aikido, it will be aikido again.


In the mean time we are guests in someone elses house.
Thems the rules. Play nice.
Here's a thought. This stuff is outragously controversial. So many forums have tried to squelch it as it is pissing off the rank and file who haven't got it and cannot defend against the 'in your face" truth it reveals.
Jun gave it a home. That aint bad.

[Timothy WK]

Since someone else re-opened this topic, I have some thoughts I would like to discuss.

Over the last year since the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum was started, I've gone back and forth on whether I think Daito-ryu should be considered "Non-Aikido" (or whether Aikido should be considered "Non-Daito-ryu"). But as time has gone by, I've started to feel straight-jacketed a bit by the distinction.

For the record, I've been training Daito-ryu (Hakuho-ryu, specifically) for about a year and a half. The longer I train, the more I see similarities between the two. I think the (technical) differences between Daito-ryu and Aikido are often exaggerated---especially given the wide spectrum of Aikido styles out there. I think the differences are exaggerated because: a) people are unfamiliar with Daito-ryu and/or have misperceptions about it, or b) various people and groups (on both sides) have a political interest in keeping the two separate.

I don't think the technical difference is necessarily any greater than the difference between the various Aikido branches. They all utilize different strategies and training methods. Some schools/styles are hardcore martial, some utterly "spiritual". Some are more circular, some more linear. Some include internal training, some don't. Various styles have also incorporated techniques and strategies from other arts (most notably the Shodokan and the Yoseikan). Etc, etc.

The "spirit" or "culture" of Daito-ryu is definitely different, but is that a big enough difference to separate the discussion? The big stumbling block I see---besides unfamiliarity of Daito-ryu, in general---is that the curriculum of Daito-ryu is a lot different from Aikido. So I admit that communication between the two groups might be a bit labored.

But I think the "General" forum would benefit a lot from Daito-ryu discussion, if for nothing else, for the fact that Daito-ryu provides a historical context for Aikido.

[Timothy WK]

I'll add one more thing to my above comments. I admit that "Daito-ryu" sometimes gets thrown around casually by people who haven't---I believe---actually studied Daito-ryu. That sometimes annoys me, as I can tell they are acting on their (? mis-)perception of Daito-ryu, rather than actual experience. And it is, of course, an abuse when individuals try and use Daito-ryu as an authority over Aikido. One isn't "better" than the other, they're just different.

So while I admit that stuff goes on, I don't think that's reason to separate the discussion.

[Mark Murray]

Non-Aikido Martial Traditions.

In a world where various aikido groups have argued what constituted "Aikido", it isn't really too far a stretch to place some of our conversations in this forum.

In a world where quite a few people said, I know what you're doing, we do that, too. And then when these people felt it directly, they found it was different and it wasn't what they were doing. To the aikido world, that can translate as "non-aikido". Even though these people noted that it constituted the higher levels of aikido.

When the people advocating aiki have training backgrounds in Daito ryu and Taiji, it isn't a far stretch to have those conversations in a "non-aikido" forum.

Dan, Mike, Timothy, Rob, Ron, Ellis, and I have all experienced things first hand. Jun has not. Do not disparage those who have not yet had the chance that we were given. And do not disparage the decisions those people make, because they certainly do not have the same experiences we do ... yet. (I'm certainly hoping they get the chance.)

While I believe that the aiki we talk about should be the driving force for aikido, it is not yet a recognized or accepted idea. Sometimes things change slowly. And in that, Jun has given us an area for discussions and there have been some very good discussions in the "non-aikido" forum. Jun changed aikiweb and gave us this forum. We should be thankful for that. I am. To me, whether I talk about this in a "non-aikido" forum or an "aikido" forum, the truth of the matter is there for those that want to read it. For those that don't, it will hopefully be archived for when they decide it is important to them. For some, it never will be.

What makes aikido, aikido? I'm sure that will always be something of an argument. Having a place to discuss with other aikido people Daito ryu aiki in relation to aikido, Taiji skills in relation to aikido, aikido(tm) to aiki...do, the aiki of the martial world, the body skills, the usage of aiki in any venue, etc etc is more important to me than what forum label it falls under. And Jun has graciously provided that.

Thank you, Jun.

Mark

[DH]

Mark
I'm pretty much in agreement with you there. Stop and think of that statement "Jun changed aikiweb to allow for discussions of it."
Anyone want to add a "WOW!"
Has anyone seen the heavy-handed moderating with transparently clear bias and agendas on other boards?
It’s going to be tough for guys like Rob who teach at three dojos and sees this training as an absolute in his Aikido. He stands alone among all the guys who tried training this way with me, He may even stand alone nationally for an aikido teacher with three dojos who is training this way not at yearly seminars- but somewhat regularly, who is also in a position to immediately effect aikido, and change training to accent aiki as he may see fit, or as he and his teacher sees fit.
Long sentence to state he is somewhat unique at this phase of the game in reaching out to get it and bring it back in. I don't know how often Ikeda is out there with another teacher just training aiki. Now that I am on that topic. There is another guy Ikeda. He greatly outrankes Rob and has more students, but by his own admission the training he is getting from Ushiro is aiki for use in his aikido. So the sources are not just Daito ryu, and Taiji but from Karate as well. Which kind of makes the whole point-pointless. It's all related, so what is not aikido/DR/Karate/Taiji/ Asian arts?

Aikidoka talking about Aiki...do
As he sees his body change and his ability to mainfest aiki grow-he is natrually going to want to talk about it. I see him as a bit of an experiment for what may happen in aikido. That's probably why he feels a sense of right to talk about what he sees, and what he is doing in three dojo teaching Aikido. I've actually never talked with him about this issue-we're to busy when I see him, so if I misunderstood you Rob my apologies.


I feel compelled to add that Jun has gone after me for my posting style many times, but he has stuck with me as I tried to soften my approach. To me that alone speaks volumes of his moderating and tolerence.
I thought long and hard about how to frame that "Aikido and aiki...do where are we at" thread. for just reason-respect
I think Juns point is precise though.
a) Talk about aiki training in context of aikido, how it relates, in the larger forums.
b) Talk about where it came from or how it used in other arts in the Non-Aikido forum.
I think that’s pretty clear.

[Ron Tisdale]

Seconded, with the exception that we have no idea what Jun has or has not felt, and he has specifically asked that his privacy be respected.

Jun have been very gracious...let's just leave it at that until he says otherwise.

Best,
Ron

[rob_liberti]

We simply have that issue about "Reticence and Agreement".

I am fully ware that it is Jun's website and I AM THANKFUL.

Jun's opinion of what things are called here is ultimately authoritative. I believe that is is fair to say that owning a website does not mean his opinion of what is aikido and what is non-aikido is ultimately authoritative in general. - There is a difference. And having such a successfull worked wide forum, there is some amount of responsibility.

No one - not even Dan is saying Dan does aikido. But I think it's a bit much to say I am discussing non-aikido when I apply something *I learned from* non-aikido to AIKIDO. Plenty of other names for the forum where suggested which would avoid such a problem.

Otherwise, it kind of leaves me feeling like: so am I the head instructor of "shobu non-aikido of connecticut" now?

I am not looking to demand my changes. I just wanted to be heard in a feedback thread about something that bothered me and was asking for consideration on the matter in my rather blunt way.

No hard feelings.
Rob

[akiy]

Hi folks,

I appreciate the respectful, open, and honest feedback and dialogue(s) that we're having here.

To address a few points directly:
But I think the "General" forum would benefit a lot from Daito-ryu discussion, if for nothing else, for the fact that Daito-ryu provides a historical context for Aikido.
I am very happy to have people discussing historical, technical, and other aspects of arts outside of aikido and how it relates to aikido in the general aikido forums here -- as long as those discussions are focused on their relationship to aikido. Once it starts to focus outside of aikido, I believe the discussion should be moved to the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum. As I have written in the past, I created the AikiWeb Forums for people to discuss the art of aikido and their experiences in the art. There may be many influences that people have had in their experiences that have helped elucidate certain elements of their aikido practice. I sure have. And, I'm frankly happy to hear people discussing their experiences from non-aikido sources in the general forums -- as long as they discuss how their experiences relate directly to their on-going aikido practice.
Dan, Mike, Timothy, Rob, Ron, Ellis, and I have all experienced things first hand. Jun has not. Do not disparage those who have not yet had the chance that we were given.
I do not see how I am disparaging other people's experiences. I'm also a bit perplexed as to another instance of trying to bring in my personal training into the discussion. All I'll ask is to please do not confuse my reticence to share my personal training history with closed-mindedness nor lack of diverse, first-hand experience.

I think Juns point is precise though.
a) Talk about aiki training in context of aikido, how it relates, in the larger forums.
b) Talk about where it came from or how it used in other arts in the Non-Aikido forum.
Yes, that's pretty much it, really.

Lastly, once again, let's keep discussions not pertaining to the formation of the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum out of this thread. Thanks.

OK, folks. I need to get back to work here.

Best,

-- Jun

[Mark Murray]

I do not see how I am disparaging other people's experiences. I'm also a bit perplexed as to another instance of trying to bring in my personal training into the discussion. All I'll ask is to please do not confuse my reticence to share my personal training history with closed-mindedness nor lack of diverse, first-hand experience.

Best,

-- Jun

Didn't mean it that way.

Mark

[Timothy WK]

I hear you Jun, you make the rules.

But just to clarify, I'm arguing something different than the other people here:
Others seem to be arguing for a general re-definition of "aiki" as internal skill... Which kinda opens the door to discussing non-aiki sources or methods. You don't want that, which is cool, I get it.
I'm arguing that the specific topic(s) of Daito-ryu history, technique, training, etc should be considered the same thing as Aikido. IMO, there is a very close and direct technical and historical link between the two that makes discussion of Daito-ryu extremely relevant to Aikido---in a way unlike any other art (even Judo). Given that Ueshiba practiced Daito-ryu as his primary art---for at least part of his life---I think most of what can be said about Daito-ryu would be things that the Founder practiced himself, or was relevant to his personal practice (I'm one of those people who get tempted to call Aikido "Ueshiba-ha Daito-ryu")... But I'll add that only a handful of people on this board, I believe, really have any sort of authority to speak about "Daito-ryu" (I have extremely little myself).

[Dan Austin]

No one - not even Dan is saying Dan does aikido. But I think it's a bit much to say I am discussing non-aikido when I apply something *I learned from* non-aikido to AIKIDO. Plenty of other names for the forum where suggested which would avoid such a problem.


What problem? ;)

Otherwise, it kind of leaves me feeling like: so am I the head instructor of "shobu non-aikido of connecticut" now?

Maybe the poll of the week should be how many Aikidoka are annoyed by discussions being diverted to internal skills and how everybody other than Dan is an aiki-less weenie. Perhaps those numbers would explain the wisdom of a separate forum. ;) I can tolerate you guys because I have no problem being a bit of jerk too, but many people are much more delicate. ;)

Seriously, I really wouldn't worry about where the threads go, typically the NAMT forum has quite a bit of readership, and many of the most-viewed and interesting threads are there too. As long as the interested people know where to find the posts, that's great. There's even a search function! I can have all Dan Harden all the time if I like! I don't mind yanking people's chains when they're begging for it (like now), but I have to say Jun has shown an admirable level of patience even when you're dragging his meatspace affiliations into the picture. Trust me, if it were my website and people had the nerve to publicly whine about how I ran it, or pontificate about my personal experiences without being in my head, my answer would be f******************************************k you. :)

[Peter Goldsbury]

I would like to come to Jun's support here.

I am a moderator or one discussion forum and regularly contribute to two more and I can see clearly how Jun has chosen to moderate this general forum (his forum). There are other ways of doing so (and I myself have been much more severe, over at E-Budo, in the case of Baffling Budo / Bad Budo, which could have legal consequences).

I think if contributors have issues with the way Jun moderates the forum and organizes the threads, they should discuss this via PM.

Best wishes to all,

[rob_liberti]

How soon they forget!

I kind of remember a time when you couldn't post about anything without being told about your average aikidoka's inability to deal with someone "closing the distance", how "90% of all fights go to the ground", etc. It was the previous posting rage as I recall and that was fine. I read posts by Jason Delucia, Dan Austin, Roy Dean, Kevin L, etc about MMA in many of the forums. I do not recall any of the MMA folks who combined what they learned with aikido getting their posts pulled out of a thread about aikido and put into a a category named "non-aikido". And DR aiki seems a lot closer to aikido than MMA.

Wink all you like, Dan. The problem I was suggesting was that we could have a separate forum AS WELL AS rename it to ANTHING without the phrase "non-aikido" in it - which seems like it would satify everyone.

Since I kind of notice thread names changing frequently, it really seemed like a simple request that would harm no one.

As far as my personal faux-pas regarding Jun's background. I got the impression that my thougths about what was aikido was "invalid" and I was having trouble relating to why we would be at odds having a similar background. Honestly, it didn't seem like a big stretch to me. If he wanted to be all anonymous, as the admin I would assume he could have picked a different name like "john smith" for instance. It certainly wasn't obvious that it was a taboo subject to me, but now that I know I'll do my best to respect his wishes.

And honestly, if this is not the correct place to provide feedback on the name of the forum, then I'm really confused about what this thread was for discussing.

As far as opinion polls. Since when is truth going to be "popular"?

The funny thing is I already dropped the issue with Jun and I'm just arguing with other folks for my daring to raise the issue in the first place.

Rob

[Dan Austin]

Wink all you like, Dan. The problem I was suggesting was that we could have a separate forum AS WELL AS rename it to ANTHING without the phrase "non-aikido" in it - which seems like it would satify everyone.

You're the only person who seems unsatisfied. Even Dan posted that he doesn't have an issue with it. If more people shared your view, Jun might have made a different decision, but if a single person's opinion should be the deciding factor, it should be his.

Since I kind of notice thread names changing frequently, it really seemed like a simple request that would harm no one.

Again, if he finds it making more work for him then he may come to a different decision. Apparently he prefers to move threads.

As far as my personal faux-pas regarding Jun's background. I got the impression that my thougths about what was aikido was "invalid" and I was having trouble relating to why we would be at odds having a similar background.

So if you're for Obama, he should be too? He's entitled to reserve his opinion about the true nature of Aikido, even if the light from Dan's body hasn't broken through the clouds and bathed him in a golden glow yet. ;) You volunteered without firsthand knowledge that he just hasn't been fortunate enough to have had that transformative experience yet. That's a bit insulting. You don't know what he's done, and maybe he won't get the religion, or won't be quite as rabid about it. He has a lot of practice tolerating different viewpoints, and you're going to find that not everyone is going to convert the way you did. He will always be entitled to have a different opinion than you, and here that means you lose. Your opinion has been duly noted, and the decision rendered for now. In the future, who knows. As Dan has noted, in the future people who question whether internal skills are part of Aikido may well be in the minority, but until then there's no reason to get huffy about it. The way to spread the word is by worrying about what you do on the mat, not obsessing over how things are categorized here. As others have noted, it's enough that the discussion is even allowed.

[DH]

Hi Dan
Since we seem to agree on the matter-would you mind not referring to me? FWIW, I am by no means alone. We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that these skills are in the Asian arts. I frequently mention there are guys trained in internal methods in DR, Aikido, and the ICMA as well. That way everyone can look in multiple places and form their own opinions. I think we have seen quite enough "cult of personality" in the martial arts. If I thought I was "all that" I'd hang a shingle and be a sensei. I'm sharing on- going research with my equals on this earth. And if you want to consider rank important? These days I am mostly sharing with my betters.
I remain an advocate for the method, not the person. It's far more important for all of us to keep in mine what is right not who is right. That way everyone keeps a strong sense of themselves and their wits about them.
My Aikido V aiki...do thread was thought out long before I posted it, to respect Jun's reasonable request and to have folks talk about independent Aiki research and how it is affecting their aikido. It was my hope to keep the sources in the background and to highlight more of their training experiences. Jun was correct when certain folks decided to talk about DR to dump it into his NAMT area.
Again though, Rob is not being unreasonable with certain points. He teachers aikido in three dojos. He has determined on his own-trust me, I have zero control over that man-that this aiki is THEE aiki he has experienced in aikido and he is now incorporating and teaching it in his aikido every week. For that reason he wants to discuss it in the aikido forums. I think he and Jun have reached some clarity and understanding of how to make that happen in the Aikido sections. So It's probably a dead issue.
I am not being gratuitous when I say how thankful I am about all of this. It was a daunting task to get the message out-more so through such a flawed method; both me and my writing skills:o, and certain others. For Jun to come up with a way to try and make everyone happy was quite a task on his end.
Has anyone considered all the complaints and hate mail he got wanting all this banned? I think we all need to really consider the larger picture (yes both sides) and the rather glaringly obvious positve position he took (I've P.M'd him and was surprised) and what Jun had to deal with in making such a decision?.
I'll settle with a place to talk about it outside of aikido, and the burgeoning success of my other goal-to now begin talking about its use in aikido from those training and teaching Aikido.
Again, thank you Jun.
And Dan, thanks for your patience, I'm trying to improve my method of communicating..

[rob_liberti]

You volunteered without firsthand knowledge that he just hasn't been fortunate enough to have had that transformative experience yet.

That's just not true to my knowledge. My best guess (assuming you are not simply mistaken about who said what or a liar) is that the meaning of something I wrote was greatly misunderstood from what I intended to say. Please provide the cite on that one.

Okay now to address you concerns:
1) I should be thankful my opinions in a feedback forum are tolerated. I am. The fact that there is a feedback forum about the subject I wanted to discuss gave me the idea that posting about it was ENCOURAGED.

2) I am the only one dissatisfied. Okay. Well, what if say 10 other people are also dissatisfied and they all use the logic that since no one has posted about this yet they must be the only 1 so it's not worth trying. In fact, Mark Murray posted about it. He was 1. I saw the thread and posted about it too. That makes 2. MAYBE just maybe a bunch of other people were going to post in as well. I can't know that at the time! Maybe just 1 or 2 people is enough to encourage Jun to think "well changing the name wouldn't be to difficult, seems like a reasonable enough request" or not. Can't know if you don't try.

3) the silly analogy. Okay fine. I didn't say that Jun and I worked for the same political election commitees! If we did, and we were out of synch with 'what was what' I would be concerned - yes...

And stop calling me huffy. I'm getting huffy about THAT! :)

Rob

[Dan Austin]

That's just not true to my knowledge. My best guess (assuming you are not simply mistaken about who said what or a liar) is that the meaning of something I wrote was greatly misunderstood from what I intended to say. Please provide the cite on that one.

My mistake, that was a post by Mark Murray.

Your posts just sounded very arrogant, but I think you've been ribbed enough. ;)

[jennifer paige smith]

My mistake, that was a post by Mark Murray.

Your posts just sounded very arrogant, but I think you've been ribbed enough. ;)

Just don't call him 'Huffy'.

[rob_liberti]

Exactly! You so get me... :)

Thanks for the support. -Rob

[akiy]

Hi folks,

I wanted to take a minute to clarify some things regarding the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum in light of my reading comments such as:

That's not ironic, it is simply because Jun banned discussions of 'IT' from the aikido subforums a long time ago. Without that incredible restriction lots of 'IT' threads would be in the General, or Techniques, or Spiritual sub-forums since many aikidoka believe such discussions are extremely pertinent to aikido itself and would have started such threads there, given the opportunity.

To clarify, I have never "banned" discussions of internal training methods from the aikido forums. Such discussions, just like any other discussion, are welcome in the aikido forums, provided that the discussions place their focus within the milieu of the martial art of aikido. In fact, I will just say that I feel that I have been very open about what topics can be discussed here on AikiWeb -- provided that they are in what I consider to be the appropriate section of the forums and adhere to the forum rules of conducting oneself with respect while contributing positively to the discussion.

Please understand, folks, that all I am trying to do is keep this website's focus on the art of aikido in the clearest and simplest way that I feel able; and, no matter how carefully I may try to draw the lines (delineating subject matter, in this instance), I know that a number of people will feel offended or disrespected as the lines I draw may not correspond to theirs. I truly hope that people do not take this to be demeaning of their personal experience nor thoughts.

Lastly, I will say that "pertinency," I believe, is a tricky topic -- almost a can of worms in my mind. I'm sure we can all agree that just because something is pertinent to a subject does not make that something into that subject; in other words, just because people believe that a certain topic is pertinent to aikido doesn't make that topic aikido. If a discussion focuses around a certain topic that is only "pertinent" to aikido but does not, for instance, explicitly discuss its relationship to aikido, then I ask that it be discussed in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum (if said topic is about a martial art) or in the Open Discussion forum.

Thank you,

-- Jun

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Jun,

Just wanted to take a moment to thank you again for all your hard work and the simple fact that you enable ALL of the conversations. You show MUCH more patience than I ever would.

Best,
Ron

[Fred Little]

Hi Jun,

Just wanted to take a moment to thank you again for all your hard work and the simple fact that you enable ALL of the conversations. You show MUCH more patience than I ever would.

Best,
Ron

What Ron said.

Best,

FL

[akiy]

Thanks, Ron and Fred, for your thoughts and support.

Best,

-- Jun

[Mark Murray]

While we don't always agree, Jun, I still very much appreciate what you do, and have done, here at Aikiweb.

Mark

[akiy]

Thanks, Mark. I appreciate your thoughts and your participation here on AikiWeb.

Best,

-- Jun