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Mike Sigman
03-08-2007, 09:28 AM
It was a pleasure to meet Mike and see and feel a different approach from Akuzawas. When I tried pushing Mike I actually had no idea what to do, other than an idea of "how" to push. I can't say I have done a pushing exercise in that manner before, but the results would still have been the same. He easily took out my base whenever he wanted, and it felt as though I was pushing a telephone pole. I couldnt feel any weak points in his structure. I can't let this go.... what I did was an aspect that was obviously new to Hunter, but honestly and seriously, it wasn't any big deal and didn't reveal any "superhuman" skills. My skills are mediocre, at best. However, it does highlight that moderate skills, if they are unknown to an 'opponent', can have a telling effect in an encounter. If, for instance, Hunter had tried to move a couple of women I know who have the same skills I have (I'm bigger and stronger, so ultimately of course, my powers will be affected by those factors), he would not have been able to move them.

There are other skills, etc., that also develop from the ki/kokyu training. So let's assume that Hunter (or some other, un-named, champion) encountered a woman who had these skills that Hunter simply hadn't encountered. She can kick butt with a large male. That's the point about the efficacy of these skills. Small people can actually beat large people, in some but not all instances, particularly if the ki-kokyu skills aren't so widespread that everyone has them. See the point? It's very worthwhile for some people to learn these skills because it gives them an edge that circumvents just size and strength.

If you take Aikido and add these kinds of skills, Aikido becomes pretty darn equal. If everyone has these skills, it takes away the edge. Luckily, to get these skills, it takes a certain amount of work and dedication, which puts them out of the reach of 98% of people. ;)

Maybe there's a good and valid reason why these skills aren't openly taught?

YMMV

Mike Sigman

Marc Abrams
03-08-2007, 10:33 AM
Mike:

I am sorry that I missed you at the last boulder camp (will be there this summer again- I am a friend of George Ledyard). I was staying in town- wife wants more comfortable sleeping and eating arrangements!

I believe that the problem that you mention has more to do with teaching methodology than people trying to hide the teachings. The focus for many teachers seems to be simply technique. It is my limited understanding the the techniques are manifestations of important principles. Many people seem to no longer practice "ki exercises" as simplistic, useless exercises. Many people do not try and grasp the underlying principles revealed in techniques, thereby ignoring the importance of practicing exercises that focus simply on those principles and how they become enacted in techniques. As a result of this, people try and "force" the techniques to "fit" situations.

marc abrams

Jeremy Hulley
03-08-2007, 10:59 AM
Mike,
Speaking in big generalizations. I think that there is a strong emphasis in Aikido on maintaining the hierarchy. I believe that some of it is connected to ego and some connected to the reversal of uke/nage roles from older martial arts. Its only been in my more recent training that I've been openly encouraged to (covertly and overtly) to become better than my teachers.
(Flame retardant on)
Jeremy

Mike Sigman
03-08-2007, 11:02 AM
I am sorry that I missed you at the last boulder camp (will be there this summer again- I am a friend of George Ledyard). I was staying in town- wife wants more comfortable sleeping and eating arrangements! I agree with your wife, Marc. If I get the urge, I might hop on my motro-sickle and stop by Glenwood this year while I make a circuit of the high-mountains. But if I do, it'll be whimsical, not planned. ;) I believe that the problem that you mention has more to do with teaching methodology than people trying to hide the teachings. The focus for many teachers seems to be simply technique. It is my limited understanding the the techniques are manifestations of important principles. Many people seem to no longer practice "ki exercises" as simplistic, useless exercises. Many people do not try and grasp the underlying principles revealed in techniques, thereby ignoring the importance of practicing exercises that focus simply on those principles and how they become enacted in techniques. As a result of this, people try and "force" the techniques to "fit" situations.Well, I think the problem is that few people really have these skills. It was only in retrospect (after I had a few of these skills) that I realized that my Okinawan karate teacher on Okinawa had shown me some of these skills. Since my perspective was based only on what I knew of the western understanding of strength, force, etc., I simply did not see what he showed me and hence I would have gone off and been a lost soul teaching external karate, if I'd chosen to go that route.

I'm really just thinking out loud in my first post because I'm getting to be more and more of the opinion that while the "baseline skillset" should certainly be more widespread, I'm not so sure that anything beyond that should be freely available. If everyone knows how to do it, the edge is lost. Most of these skills can probably be traced back to ancient India and from what I've read of the "codes" of various Indian arts, the idea of secrecy was prominent even then. You simply don't want to tell everyone and the idea of a person being of good character is prominent. Certainly that has had an effect on the transmission of this stuff. ;)

Best.

Mike

Jeremy Hulley
03-08-2007, 11:06 AM
I'm really just thinking out loud in my first post because I'm getting to be more and more of the opinion that while the "baseline skillset" should certainly be more widespread, I'm not so sure that anything beyond that should be freely available. If everyone knows how to do it, the edge is lost. Most of these skills can probably be traced back to ancient India and from what I've read of the "codes" of various Indian arts, the idea of secrecy was prominent even then. You simply don't want to tell everyone and the idea of a person being of good character is prominent. Certainly that has had an effect on the transmission of this stuff. ;)

I agree with this as well. I think taht it becomes incredible diffficult with an art as big and popular as Aikido to decide who gets the "skills". Particularly when te art is marketed as being so open to everyone.

Marc Abrams
03-08-2007, 11:14 AM
Mike:

Took an Indian art in college for 4 years. Awesome learning experience!

I have mixed feelings about your opinion. I think that the Chinese have a more systematic approach towards teaching, and they will typically only show the REAL parts of the art to the chosen one or few.

I frankly think that us westerners do not have the patience to stick with the real learning that takes place through repeated exercises that appear to be futile, baseless and boring to most. I have no problems in teaching what little I know to those who want to learn it. Those that have the patience will hopefully "get it!" By the same token, I believe that my success as a teacher is to learn to transmit what I have learned in a more effective and efficient manner. Those that stay around will hopefully be on the same path as myself. I think that "natural selection" will take place and only a few will stay around to learn to strong base skill level. Hell, I have enough problems with our reverse darwinian society, that maybe training a few who deserve to learn it is a very good idea!

I should not blame the sleeping and eating arrangements solely on my wife. She and I both agree that a nice nights sleep (together!) Try sleeping two on dorm beds- HAH! is life. More importantly- good eats is not just good for your body, but .... Compare dorm food to a nice juicy rib-eye..... 2001 Cab.........

Mike Sigman
03-08-2007, 11:40 AM
I have mixed feelings about your opinion. I think that the Chinese have a more systematic approach towards teaching, and they will typically only show the REAL parts of the art to the chosen one or few. This is sort of true, Marc, but also not true. You'd have to have heard as many Chinese as I have..... they all say that they wish Chinese martial arts was as structured as Japanese martial arts!!!! :) I frankly think that us westerners do not have the patience to stick with the real learning that takes place through repeated exercises that appear to be futile, baseless and boring to most. I have no problems in teaching what little I know to those who want to learn it. Those that have the patience will hopefully "get it!" By the same token, I believe that my success as a teacher is to learn to transmit what I have learned in a more effective and efficient manner. Those that stay around will hopefully be on the same path as myself. I think that "natural selection" will take place and only a few will stay around to learn to strong base skill level. Hell, I have enough problems with our reverse darwinian society, that maybe training a few who deserve to learn it is a very good idea! Well, most of these discussions are about "what" the "it" is that people are getting. ;) Compare dorm food to a nice juicy rib-eye..... 2001 Cab......... You, sir, are obviously a man of discernment and refinement!

Best.

Mike

Marc Abrams
03-08-2007, 01:45 PM
Mike:

I will be bringing a nice supply of cab.'s. One bottle is typically spoken for when my wife and I take Ushiro Sensei out for a nice dinner. If you make the effort to visit, I will earmark a nice red to enjoy over some great food, discussion and budo play!

marc

ChrisMoses
03-08-2007, 02:23 PM
It was only in retrospect (after I had a few of these skills) that I realized that my Okinawan karate teacher on Okinawa had shown me some of these skills. Since my perspective was based only on what I knew of the western understanding of strength, force, etc., I simply did not see what he showed me and hence I would have gone off and been a lost soul teaching external karate, if I'd chosen to go that route.



Wow, what your saying implies that this guy was really dumb.

(Sorry all, couldn't help myself) :D

Ron Tisdale
03-08-2007, 02:31 PM
Hey Chris, that was slick... :D

Best,
Ron (from now on, Chris is the guy with a memory like an elephant...)

Mike Sigman
03-08-2007, 02:33 PM
I give up. I lose interest on these public forums.

statisticool
03-10-2007, 08:05 AM
Hi Hunter,

Was this pushing in a static format with 'play nice' rules, or more of a free sparring session?

Since you used the phrase 'pushing exercise', I assume the former, but thought I'd check.

Justin

DH
03-10-2007, 08:29 AM
Justin
1.I train static
2. I "live" in the other in a MMA format. To include throwing you when you touch me, kicking, punching, takedown resistance and ground work, not to mention chokes and locks.
3. Your point being to suggest just what______________________?

I'm rather surprised in that of the three CMA master level teachers I have met-they agree with Mike's take on things. How do I end up supporting Mike's positions in several areas? How'd that happen Justin?
4.Where did you train to come up with such adversarial view?

Dan

statisticool
03-10-2007, 09:17 AM
Justin
1.I train static
2. I "live" in the other in a MMA format. To include throwing you when you touch me, kicking, punching, takedown resistance and ground work, not to mention chokes and locks.
3. Your point being to suggest just what______________________?


My point being to ask a question to Hunter about the particulars of the parameters the pushing took place. I thought that was fairly obvious.


I'm rather surprised in that of the three CMA master level teachers I have met-they agree with Mike's take on things. How do I end up supporting Mike's positions in several areas? How'd that happen Justin?
4.Where did you train to come up with such adversarial view?


These "points" are irrelevant to my question to Hunter.

Kevin Leavitt
03-11-2007, 06:51 AM
Mike,

I give up. I lose interest on these public forums.

Why is that?