etiquette and lack of it

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[andrew]

What's the etiquette situation in the places you all train, with specific regard to people who avoid training with beginners, people who can't shut up and just train, people who ignore the technique demonstrated because they learned to do their sankyo "this other way", and indeed people who apparently are too important to tidy up the mats after a class. (I'm not talking about people who fold their hakama up first, I'm talking about people who just slink out of the way and chat.)

Anyhow, I've had a stressful week. I just wanted to rant about it, and perhaps gain some optimism for my eventual unleashing of self upon the world at large.

andrew

[nikonl]

well...people from my dojo doesn't do anything that you mentioned. Practically its a good one with good etiquette, which my sensei places alot of emphasis on, being very close to hombu dojo aikikai.

[ian]

Hi Andrew,
maybe I've trained with you at some point - I was down in Galway this year training with Henry Kono and I was there last year training with Jaff Raji.

I've been teaching for a year now, and have found it quite a steep learning curve. I find people tend to talk alot when they are bored, don't feel they have anything new to learn from the technique, or don't understand what they are supposed to be doing. You can either:

- get everyone to change partners, but do the same technique
- get them attackers to put more vigour into the attack (recently I encouraged ukes to attack as soon as they could after being thrown).
- stop the class and explain the technique in a different way, or do a different attack type/slight variation.

- stop the class & do something else (not recommended unless they are really fed up with that technique)

Also, people learn bad habits from each other so if the class is decaying into a chat session you have to nip it in the bud.

As far as saying, "we used to do it like this...etc". Explain WHY one way is better than another, or why your group does it in a particular way (I often think it related to how each group 'simulates' the attack. Sometimes things are different 'cos they work better in different situations or have different aims. If they carry on, ask why they choose to train at your class rather than their previous senseis! (though usually they really are trying to justify having to change their own technique)

I'm quite lucky in having a beginning class; even though many have done ju-jitsu before, they don't complain as much about stylistic differences as I've seen in most classes!

Ian

[Erik]

with specific regard to people who avoid training with beginners

We've segmented our classes and now have a formal beginning class. It's alleviated a lot of the pain of spending the whole night with low level kyu ranks. This was actually a major issue at one point with some serious frustration on the part of the senior folks. Otherwise, I understand the point.

people who can't shut up and just train

I'm an inveterate bullshiter but I'll also get down and train. I shut up as the practice gets more intense.

people who ignore the technique demonstrated because they learned to do their sankyo "this other way"

Everyone does this and in every dojo I've ever seen. Our dojo is horrible I've seen kyu ranks correct dannage before. Actually, the one time I'm thinking about the kyu rank was right. :) I dunno how much of an issue this is but I'm in strange world most of the time.

indeed people who apparently are too important to tidy up the mats after a class. (I'm not talking about people who fold their hakama up first, I'm talking about people who just slink out of the way and chat.)

There are times when I don't put away the mats. Then again, this is usually when putting them out was a one man job and I was feeling bitter about that. Again, overall a non-issue for us.

[jrosen]

Yeah, I just started recently, and I've been getting really annoyed with my training partners. They're just as new to this as I am, and yet they all seem to think that they know the way the technique is supposed to be done. They are often wrong, sometimes they are right, but I'd just rather they be quiet and let me figure it out myself and try to focus on the teacher's instructions. I'm not sure how to deal with it. It's hard to tell them that I don't want their advice, and it's hard to just ignore them...

[tarik]

Originally posted by jrosen
... I'd just rather they be quiet and let me figure it out myself and try to focus on the teacher's instructions....

Thank them for their help and then tell them just that. Tell them you need to figure it out on their own and ask them if they can help by letting your try it yourself in silence.

Tarik

[michaelkvance]

to people who avoid training with beginners, people who can't shut up and


I avoid training with beginners because I'm a beginner myself--they don't need to learn immature technique from me.


just train, people who ignore the technique demonstrated because they learned to do their sankyo "this other way", and indeed


Well, first time it's just difference of technique. An instructor will correct them here. Beyond that it's just rude, and I don't think it would be looked upon very favorably...


people who apparently are too important to tidy up the mats after a class. (I'm


Uh... as we say in the zendo, cleaning is practice. Someone who didn't help clean wouldn't be welcome in our dojo. If you saw us on the Discovery channel in Sept., you'll notice Sensei yelling at one of our yudansha, Jim, to clean better, heh.

m.

[Creature_of_the_id]

I have found that if a see begginers being neglected I just up the tempo of the class considerable for the higher grades, dont give them a break when they are training with each other.
They soon work out the only way to get a rest is to slow down the tempo themselves and train with the lower grades.

I have not really come across people who cant shut up. maybe it is sign that the class is boring them?

people not doing the technique demonstrated bugs me actually. For a student to do technique not in the way that is demonstrated is very arrogant, basicly saying that they know better than the instructor.
Our instructor had a talk to us about this not too long ago, pointing out that there are so many ways to do technique, one day he may do it one way, the next another... each instructor will do it differently also. Trying the different ways gives you options and adaptability and so there is probably a reason why he did it one way and not another.
So, you follow the class plan and do as he is doing.

the tidying up the mats is annoying sometimes too.. especially when you get to the showers and the lazy people who didnt tidy up have run off all the hot water! :(

Kev

[joan]

We have those problems--it's not a matter of training experience, either. I've seen unranked newbies correcting others, and higher ranks apparently unaware of mats needing to be set out or put away. Sometimes it bugs me, sometimes not. When it doesn't I see it as an eventually self-correcting problem, when it does I try to stay focused and be a good example (which doesn't always work...) One time one of the instructors specifically said it was to be a NO talking class, and still some people had to comment...

Joan

[Johan Tibell]

Originally posted by andrew
people who ignore the technique demonstrated because they learned to do their sankyo "this other way...

andrew

I saw quite much of this at the last camp by Doshu I attended, he showed the same technique maybe 20 times to make a point of something and many of the people their still did their own thing as usual. I find this very respectless. Who if not Doshu should be their main influence when it comes to techniques. Even if you don't always agree with the person who is teaching at the moment you should always IMHO do as he shows at least until the training session is over.

Best Regards,

Johan Tibell

[Skye]

Etiquette is the best form of self defence.

I have just started aikido(and posting on this bb) but I have noticed these problems also. I don't know if the below system is common in aikido since I've only been going a little while but I thought it would be interesting.

My sensei (when the class is fairly small) gets one nage to stand in the middle of the mats and everyone else to line up at the edge of the mat. The poeple lined up are all uke and they attack one after the other returning to the end of the line after being thrown or whatever. After all the ukes have had a go the first uke bows to nage and becomes nage. The old nage goes to the end of the line of ukes.

Skye
This way everyone is uke to everyone and nage is constantly getting a new uke. It stops alot of chatting because it is hard to maintain a conversation when you are required to be uke!

[nikonl]

Skye: If i'm not wrong, most dojos do that for 'big' throws to save space, but only in smaller groups, like for mine, its 5-6 person per group. :)

[andrew]

Originally posted by michaelkvance

wouldn't be welcome in our dojo. If you saw us on the Discovery channel in Sept., you'll notice Sensei yelling at one of our yudansha, Jim, to clean better, heh.

m.

What was the name of the program? (I'll have to keep an eye out for it over here...)


andrew

[michaelkvance]

What was the name of the program? (I'll have to keep an eye out for it over here...)


Hm, I believe the name was something like:
"Martial Arts: The Way of the Warrior -
Discipline of Students". The dojo will also be on Discovery again in April, on a program called "The Ultimate Ten Martial Arts".

m.

[PeterR]

Originally posted by michaelkvance
The dojo will also be on Discovery again in April, on a program called "The Ultimate Ten Martial Arts".

And the ten are?

[michaelkvance]

And the ten are?


Lord only knows. Sensei mentions these in his little blurb about it:


Kali Eskrima, Krav Maga, Gracie Jujitsu, Kung Fu in addition to Aikido.


The program we were on last time was pretty silly... Combat-Ki, some ridiculus Ninjitsu stuff, and a pretty decent karate school.

m.