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Dwarkyzidez
02-19-2007, 09:46 PM
I know, I know. Aikido isn't suppose to be competitive. I think so too, but I am 110% sure I'll end up having to spar with my friend to see who's the better fighter. We've already done sword fighting, so yeah. Well, now I am questioning if Aikido would be good for a friendly fight. I've seen videos, but mostly they were fake/acted or the aikido person...sucked. I mean, the ones I saw didn't compare to what I know is 'good' aikido. Bad form and stuff.

So I am curious is Aikido would be good against a person in MMA. I cant describe his actual style. He's self-taught, he says. He's quick, and kicks alot. He's tried to use some tripping techniques on me...but they're weak. In swordfighting, he can either take you out fast and early, or get beat later. So he gets tired quick. Thats really as much as I can describe. I'll ask him what style he takes.

mriehle
02-19-2007, 10:27 PM
You've lost already.

It's not about Aikido, either.

Stop fighting, that's not the point.

ChrisHein
02-20-2007, 12:11 AM
Dear Evan,

I think you need to stop, take a breath, and formulate your thoughts; then construct a question.

If you want to find out if you can beat your friend in a fight, then all you have to do is fight him. You will find out very soon. If you want to know if Aikido people can beat up other people. It depends on who's doing the beating.

Fighting, is fighting. Styles are styles. They are apples and oranges, and cannot be compared in the manner you are attempting.

Dwarkyzidez
02-20-2007, 12:13 AM
Yeah you're right. I actually was thinking over asking this because of that point.

But I was really just curious. Guess I'll learn in a year or two. But I might as well put this topic to use. Anyone have any real aikido videos? Not demos.

*change of subject. works*

Kevin Leavitt
02-20-2007, 12:14 AM
As a MMA/BJJ guy.

If this is your concern, go study MMA/BJJ. Aikido is good and based on sound principle as pracitced by most, however there are better ways to train if you are concerned with actual fighting and becomeing effective in this realm.

Also before starting a new thread like this, you may want to check out the search feature on Aikiweb.

There are many, many threads out there already that address this issue. Check "off the mat" category for many threads.

Also look directly below this thread at similar threads.

Good luck and welcome to aikido and aikiweb.

Kevin Leavitt
02-20-2007, 12:15 AM
what would you define as a real aikido video?

Dwarkyzidez
02-20-2007, 12:31 AM
eh its not really a big deal for me. I'm really in it because I am into philosophy (reading I-Ching now if you care) and martial arts, so its a good mix. Plus when I see people who train in aikido, they look calm and stuff. I'm going through some mental issues so it might help alot.

And by real videos I mean videos of aikido techniques being used/fights that arent demonstrated or acted.

Mark Uttech
02-20-2007, 02:35 AM
You seem to be wandering in the wilderness. Find a dojo, a teacher, and commit yourself to ten years of practice. That is the best place to begin.

In gassho,

Mark

Amir Krause
02-20-2007, 04:56 AM
I think the answer I wrote in this link applies to you too:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=167460&postcount=17
In short - Aikido will fare great, simply because it will be you and not Aikido in this sparring!


The knowledge of Aikido is rather problematic for application in sparing situations. One should be very good and practice a lot in order to utilize this knowledge correctly against a person who knows something about Aikido.
Further, one should practice in a Dojo where similar attacks are common (as I mentioned in that post, many places stick to ritual base attacks since those suffice for the principle). Having practiced often against similar attacks will help you in the first step of utilizing the Aikido principles to such a situation: Identifying the attack and line of attack in time and knowing how to use your techniques on those attacks.


Still, from my own experience in friendly sparring (with another M.A. student), most people rarely commit to an attack in such situations, which makes using Aikido very difficult. If you are any good, you will likely find yourself using much more irimi then is usually the case (at least this is what happened to me in friendly sparring, my Aikido became very offensive as my sparring mate kept retreating all the time).

Amir

DaveS
02-20-2007, 06:58 AM
And by real videos I mean videos of aikido techniques being used/fights that arent demonstrated or acted.
If you search for (say) shodokan tournament on youtube you'll find some shiai randori clips. Most styles don't do this sort of training and it's not a 'real fight', but it is aikido techniques being used on an opponent who's doing everything they can to stay standing.

But yeah, I'd echo pretty much everyone else in saying that there's a lot more to gained by practising aikido than just the ability to make people fall over.

Kevin Leavitt
02-20-2007, 10:59 AM
the problem you run into with video of real fights are that in real fights people do just that...fight. The techniques you see can be seen in aikido, but they are not exclusive to aikido as it is designed to teach principles.

People clinch alot of times in real fights, not something you practice often in aikido, but I would say it is no different than a very close irimi and ikkyo if you get a underhook and spin to his back.

You don't catch punches in mid air, you don't get the shionage out right typically, and you don't get kotegaeshi, but there are some videos our there that show various forms of kotegaeshi. Not sure where anymore, but they are there.

Fights are not pretty, and I have never seen one that artistically and stereotypically looks like, smells like, and moves like aikido in a dojo. however, the same underlying principles apply.

Roman Kremianski
02-20-2007, 11:10 AM
Don't see how you can spar in Aikido Evan, sorry. Aikido is just a set of principals and concepts...no one is going to baby-guide you on where to apply them.

Just my opinion based on pre-Aikido experiences. Fighting a BJJ/MMA guy is a whole new level, which is something I've never thankfully had to do! :rolleyes:

Kevin Leavitt
02-20-2007, 01:19 PM
I would not say it is a new level, just a different perspective of the same principles.

Aristeia
02-20-2007, 05:11 PM
Also before starting a new thread like this, you may want to check out the search feature on Aikiweb.

There are many, many threads out there already that address this issue. Check "off the mat" category for many threads.

Also look directly below this thread at similar threads.

tee hee- nice attempt there Kevin

Avery Jenkins
02-20-2007, 07:31 PM
Here's an "aikido in real life" vignette for you.

http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=520.0

DonMagee
02-20-2007, 09:27 PM
Here's an "aikido in real life" vignette for you.

http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=520.0

The most amazing example of skill in that story was that he was able to count the teeth while fighting. Now that is skill.

Roman Kremianski
02-20-2007, 10:10 PM
Now that's awesome. Except the part where he gets charged. But worth it! ;)

Dwarkyzidez
02-20-2007, 11:49 PM
oh man Im just gonna quit while I'm ahead. I'm just talking about sparring against another person that does Martial Arts. Like those competitions. I know Aikido isn't competitive, but if it is...yeah. Also ends up I'm not going to fight my friend using Aikido since he's an idiot. Ended up fighting over an airsoft gun, he tried to trip me but I stood and he thought I was already taking aikido...

So if you all still think I'm one of those 'lol I learn aikido 2 kick ppls asses', I'm not. As said, Im in it for the philosophy really and hopefully help my mental situation.

L. Camejo
02-21-2007, 12:01 PM
So I am curious is Aikido would be good against a person in MMA. I cant describe his actual style. He's self-taught, he says. He's quick, and kicks alot. He's tried to use some tripping techniques on me...but they're weak. In swordfighting, he can either take you out fast and early, or get beat later. So he gets tired quick. Thats really as much as I can describe. I'll ask him what style he takes.To be honest, sparring outside the box can be fun and one can learn quite a lot about oneself from it, but it must be taken in its context and should not be seen as vindication of any super martial skill but as an expression of how well one understands and is able to apply the principles of Aikido in that format.

As said by others it matters not how Aikido works against other MA. The fact that you do Aikido has nothing to do with how you approach training in Aikido. If you train Aikido with the goal of effectively dealing with an MMA stylist like your pal then it will work for you, but only if you do what is required through your own mindset towards training and desire to truly understand the scope of abilities that can be trained in Aikido. Imho Aikido is best designed to work where one gets to step in and cut down the enemy with a clear and empty mind, as expresssed in traditional swordsmanship. The problem is that this sort of expression is very difficult to show in a sparring match or some other friendly format. It's not about fighting at all. Also, the vast majority of dojos do not train towards this end, so you will have a challenge if you plan on developing this sort of level. However I can't say that it is impossible if one approaches Aikido training with the correct mindset and has like minded people to assist along the way.

I hope you find a place with people that can help you in achieving your training goals. For now I'd say train hard, study harder and always ask questions but keep in mind how everything you learn may be applied to the situation you identified at the beginning of this thread and practice it with willing partners.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Guilty Spark
02-21-2007, 01:47 PM
Ended up fighting over an airsoft gun, he tried to trip me but I stood and he thought I was already taking aikido...

So if you all still think I'm one of those 'lol I learn aikido 2 kick ppls asses', I'm not. As said, Im in it for the philosophy really and hopefully help my mental situation.



Am I the only one who finds something really weird about this?

He triped you so you stood up and he thought you were taking aikido and umm, what?

Help your mental situation??

Dude what are you talking about?

Kevin Leavitt
02-21-2007, 01:48 PM
Damn Fooks you are perceptive and don't miss a thing!

Roman Kremianski
02-21-2007, 02:58 PM
I'm so lost now.

I know Aikido isn't competitive, but if it is...yeah.

Sorta like telling someone "I know you're really not stupid...but you are"?

Also ends up I'm not going to fight my friend using Aikido since he's an idiot.

The principals of Aikido only work on intelligent people? :confused:


I am 110% sure I'll end up having to spar with my friend to see who's the better fighter.

I'd recommend some kid's classes...and possibly some new friends!

Dwarkyzidez
02-21-2007, 06:12 PM
By the tripping thing, I mean he was trying to trip me using some of his moves or something. But he failed and I stood, so he thought that Aikido taught me not to fall like that. Hard to explain.

And we mean friendly sparring, but contact. I don't wanna kick his ass up and down the floor, or the other way around.

And Im thinking of not using Aikido since, as it seems, its not for fighting (or what you guys are saying). So I'll give the art respect in not using it in something I have seen that it is against.

mriehle
02-21-2007, 06:31 PM
And Im thinking of not using Aikido since, as it seems, its not for fighting (or what you guys are saying). So I'll give the art respect in not using it in something I have seen that it is against.

Evan, I'm thinking you're still misunderstanding things. Check out this link:

http://www.newschoolaikido.com/faq.php

under the part about handling karate or jiu jitsu attacks. It illustrates the point pretty well, I think.

Cyrijl
02-22-2007, 08:52 AM
that school made me cry.

Keith R Lee
02-22-2007, 09:35 AM
Evan, I'm thinking you're still misunderstanding things. Check out this link:

http://www.newschoolaikido.com/faq.php

under the part about handling karate or jiu jitsu attacks. It illustrates the point pretty well, I think.

If by illustrating the point pretty well you mean completely avoiding the question and exhibiting a strong sense of apriorism, I agree with you.

Cyrijl
02-22-2007, 09:46 AM
wow. and i thought my response was tough.

Armin Quast
02-22-2007, 10:07 AM
I' no Aikidoka but a Judoka interested in other arts. I've read a lot of the answers above and I dare say: a real fight would never be an option to a real Aikidoka unless given no other chance but to fight!
A sparring is something different because it follows rules - but rules don't exist in the street. Attacked in the street you might not have any other chance but to fight back - never knowing your opponent's (or rather opponents' ) next move. Maybe he/they suddenly has/have a knife or a gun in his/their hands threatening you - and then??? Think about that when you talk about "fihting" the next time.
And yes, it IS the same with Judo, unless you've been also training it a lot of time, training also the selfdefense techniques which really do exist and cannot be compared to what you see in competition.

paw
02-22-2007, 11:30 AM
A sparring is something different because it follows rules - but rules don't exist in the street.

Increasingly, I find myself disagreeing with the concept that rules don't exist in the street. I think they do. They are called "laws".

In competition/sparring/training your opponent may violate a "rule" and they will be penalized accordingly if caught. Because your opponent violated a "rule" generally doesn't give you the right to violate the "rule". Similarly, if your opponent(s) violate a "law" they will be penalized accordingly if caught. But that does not give you the right to violate the "law" in your defense.

At least, that's how I'm starting to see things....

Regards,

Paul

Luc X Saroufim
02-22-2007, 12:18 PM
i've been hearing this from some of my friends and i'm starting to adapt to this philosophy:

if you absolutely have to use Aikido in a no holds barred fighting situation, it is better to use the concepts learned rather than the techniques.

IMO setting a guy up for shihonage or kotegaeshi is almost impossible in the real world. however, studying those techniques lets you practice concepts like connection, timing, avoiding, entering, merging, and manipulation of joints. all those are universal concepts in all martial arts, and are highly effective in self defense situations.

when was the last time someone hit you when you weren't there?

Roman Kremianski
02-22-2007, 12:22 PM
Similarly, if your opponent(s) violate a "law" they will be penalized accordingly if caught.

How many people will stick around for the cops to show up after stabbing you?

Cyrijl
02-22-2007, 12:37 PM
about 3

Kevin Leavitt
02-22-2007, 01:30 PM
All due respect, that website is giving advice that I think is irresponsible and not correct about the dynamics of fights. There is a big gap between theory and reality. I have no issue with their theory and philosophy behind what "should" happen, but who actually has that much control over things in a violent situation that possesses the skill to have it work this way.

Not many.

Especially bad advice to give out to new students concerned with violence or fighitng.

As far as rules. Of course their our always established parameters and rules...you simply may not have the same understanding as your opponent, or have consented to his understanding of the rules he is playing by. That causes discourse and conflict between you as well. :)

Kevin Leavitt
02-22-2007, 01:35 PM
Let me clarify something I did not in my last post.

The advice is sound in theory, however, you cannot/should not make the assumption that this is all the answers you may need in a fight. Some people may get back up. They may overwhelm you with punches and kicks. You may end up on the ground.

They may not speak your language or care what you say.

lots of variables. Again, in theory...no issues...however, it is easy to draw a convienent tidy conclusion from this as a new student that aikido training has all the answers you need....in this respect, I think they are setting people up for failure possibly.

mriehle
02-22-2007, 01:38 PM
If by illustrating the point pretty well you mean completely avoiding the question and exhibiting a strong sense of apriorism, I agree with you.

Um, no.

That isn't what I meant.

But I'm sorry you see it that way.

Did you miss the part about them not being able to hit him after he decided not to get into the fight?

I've had much the same experience. Aikidoka who want to "fight" frequently fail, IME, but Aikidoka who simply want to stay safe frequently succeed. It's all about your mindset. Theoretically, what you are physically doing is identical (though, it isn't *actually* from my observations).

The point I was trying to make is that if you go in with a "sparring" mentality and expect to be doing Aikido, you're probably going to lose.

I've had people challenge me both on and off the mat. My successes have - without exception - been when I simply didn't care about winning or losing. My failures have always had an element of fighting in them for me.

Budd
02-22-2007, 01:44 PM
So, are you saying that randori or shiai that is non-compliant is not aikido?

mriehle
02-22-2007, 01:52 PM
The advice is sound in theory, however, you cannot/should not make the assumption that this is all the answers you may need in a fight. Some people may get back up. They may overwhelm you with punches and kicks. You may end up on the ground.

With respect, the evidence from NSA students doesn't bear this out. I know of at least three incidents where a student did use Aikido (or at least it's principles) and the attacker simply gave up the fight.

I do, however, temper the blanket statement that they don't get up myself. My contention is that most of them won't, but that there are exceptions to any rule and the exceptions in this case should be treated as extremely dangerous people. In my opinion, if they get up after the first throw and want to continue the fight, you should assume they are willing and motivated to kill you and act accordingly.

But, I look at the situation where one of the students at NSA was faced with a guy trying to stab his father. The student disarmed him, pinned him for a bit and when the guy with the knife got up he was actually apologetic (though he still went to jail).

This isn't magic or some mystical, new age mumbo jumbo. It's simple, dime store psychology. If you are not hostile, most people lose their hostility when you control the situation. The exceptions are much rarer than TV crime shows will lead you to believe and I believe Aikido actually gives us tools to deal with them as well.

I do know of one incident where the attacker kept going against an Aikidoka after being thrown twice and having his arm broken. The attacker wound up dead. Not an ideal outcome, but my understanding of what happened leads me to believe this guy was going to wind up dead attacking the wrong person eventually anyway.

Cyrijl
02-22-2007, 01:53 PM
Michael,
I bet I could take him down or hit him whether he cared or not and whether he tried to stop me or not. That is not bragging, that is just the way it is.

-------

These threads just need to stop. They are like a car wreck. No matter how hard you want to refrain from looking you just can't help it.

mriehle
02-22-2007, 01:57 PM
So, are you saying that randori or shiai that is non-compliant is not aikido?

No, I don't think so.

But if nage is worrying about the compliance of his ukes - getting into the fight - it's probably not Aikido.

FWIW: I do jiyu waza with my students where reversals are not only allowed, but encouraged. When I play this way myself I find I do much better when I quit worrying about winning and just play.

Kevin Leavitt
02-22-2007, 02:11 PM
Michael,

Certainly the situations could play out the way you have outlined them. However, for reality, I do not think it is wise to use this as the norm for all situations. (I am not saying that you necessarily believe this BTW).

If we are training for reality, we have an obligation to train our students for point of failure.

I do work with my students on occasion to understand the dynamic of minimal force and de-escalation. Hard to describe here, but I work with them aiki style on once they have disabled to stop pushing or using strength that it is counterproductive and actually causes your opponent to fight back.

However, there is much, much more than goes into action prior to that point of control. We cannot assume it will happen every time, therefore, if we are training for reality, we need to work on other things that compensate for failure of various components/situations.

Aikido CAN give you tools to deal with the reality of situations. It all depends on how you train it, and which situations you are talking about. We can argue that all day.

However, if practiced the way it is practiced in MOST dojos, based on emphasizing principles and waza...it is simply NOT preparing your adequately when we are talking about full on violent force from a non-compliant person.

Absolutely, there are levels of escalation of force. Absolutely aikido does train some very relevant things in these areas...aikido does this better than many other methodologies I believe....however, we need to simply be careful of NOT leading people to believe that it covers the whole spectrum if we simply are NOT training that way.

It could get nasty and ugly. Are you preparing people mentally, physically, and spiritually do deal with this end of the spectrum as well?

Kevin Leavitt
02-22-2007, 02:17 PM
I agree Michael, you cannot worry about winning or losing, you fight with the goal of winning, but you do not ponder or regard this while doing it. You simply do it.

Practice develops habits and instincts. When you fight you use what you learn, or default to what you don't learn. For some of us that may result in the fetal position on the ground, for others something entirely different.

mriehle
02-22-2007, 02:30 PM
It could get nasty and ugly. Are you preparing people mentally, physically, and spiritually do deal with this end of the spectrum as well?

First of all, I'm getting the very strong sense you and I are not so far apart on this as it may initially appear.

But as for the above quote, one of the things I've learned in my own personal journey is that preparing for that kind of thing comes in three stages:


Recognizing the reality of the possibility and acknowledging it.
Understanding that it's nothing to do with you. You don't have to become a part of the ugliness in order to deal with the ugliness. You can say "no" to the ugliness without denying its existance or denying the other person.
Working out how to apply the resulting attitude when the rubber hits the road.


I think you can work out the first two steps in a very short time. I've seen people get there in less than a year. That last one, though, gets sticky very quickly. For one thing, it can lead to screwing up your accomplishment in the second stage.

In practice I think a lot of people bounce back and forth between the last two stages and some of them go all the way back to the first. The only cure I know of for this is to keep training. :)

But the bottom line is that you don't have to buy into the nastiness in order to deal with the nastiness. IME, in fact, doing so will only make it less likely that you will be effective.

mriehle
02-22-2007, 02:37 PM
Practice develops habits and instincts. When you fight you use what you learn, or default to what you don't learn.

As usual, it comes back to: keep practicing.

One of the things I think NSA does very right is that you start doing randori within the first month of training. Okay, it's kind of a cooperative randori, but it still trains a really different mindset than kata practice.

Even in a co-operative randori you have to let go of certain unhealthy ego tricks. Rhythm and movement become way more important than winning. It's funny, as well, how having three or more people trying to take you to the mat (and that part is done with considerable - um - sincerity) points out tiny flaws in your training habits.

Not competing doesn't mean you're not allowed to challenge each other and push yourself to stronger, more meaningful accomplishment.

Kevin Leavitt
02-22-2007, 02:46 PM
Yes, we probably are not all that far off, it is all in perception really I am sure.

I am not sure I am following you, so correct me if I am wrong.

I have not problem with your three stages on a mental/spiritual level. I have always kinda followed Maslow, which this looks to be the same to me.

It is the physical skills part I am focusing on. Making sure we are training properly in this area.

On one hand we can detach ourselves from the situation and not allow our emotions, anger etc to distract us, or cause us to over react.

That is one way, maybe NOT the aikido way?

Aikido requires compassion. To be compassionate, you have to become emotionally involved, recognize that you are a stakeholder and share in the situation with your opponent.

This is the tough part....

How do you approach from a compassionate standpoint when you must deal with this in a split second and react in sometimes a most violent manner?

I know the answer myself, and it can be done....in fact, this is what BUDO is all about I think.

However, this is on a mental/emotional/spritual level.

The part I am addressing is simply pure physical skills to be able to physcially react appropriately.

I think sometimes in aikido we do a good job of the mental/spirutal/emotional preparation....yet there is a disparity between the physical preparation.

We should caution our students NOT to transfer the emotional/spiritual/mental lessons to the physical. I think this is where many aikido people get in trouble with there friends asking them to prove it...and in some cases with violent opponents who really could careless about the fact that we study aikido.

Ron Tisdale
02-22-2007, 02:47 PM
Joseph, what difference does that make? I mean, in the instances (word of mouth, grain of salt, whatever) cited by Michael, students were able to defend themselves. so what you could do is meaningless...you aren't attacking them.

I know there are high school wrestlers that could take me down...I have no doubt of it. I bet I could find a few that could take down most people. But then...I don't get in fights with high school wrestlers, so I really don't give a darn...

Best,
Ron (maybe someone said something stupid on the web page and that is what you are referring to...I have to admit, I didn't bother reading the web page...)

mriehle
02-22-2007, 02:50 PM
if you absolutely have to use Aikido in a no holds barred fighting situation, it is better to use the concepts learned rather than the techniques.

At the risk of getting Zen here; the point of learing techniques is to learn principles. The body moves according to certain, predictable rules. No technique every goes as planned, so being attached to a technique will prevent you from applying the principles.

You have to care, but if caring becomes attachment, you will fail.

IMO setting a guy up for shihonage or kotegaeshi is almost impossible in the real world.

Funny this one. Kotegaeshi, in particular, is one where I've never seen anyone "set the guy up for it", but I've seen it used and used it (though my use of it is not, really, a great example of Aikido on some level and it was a long time ago). It's never "set up", it just works out that way.

I think as soon as you start setting someone up for a particular technique you are getting into attachment. Attachment gives the other guy leverage.

mriehle
02-22-2007, 03:00 PM
It is the physical skills part I am focusing on. Making sure we are training properly in this area.


Ah! I see the disconnect now. :cool:

Yes, you are right. You cannot ignore the physical skills. I actually believe that the philosophical/spiritual stuff is embedded in correct practice of Aikido. If you do not practice the physical stuff correctly, you really aren't being true to the philosophy. It isn't that nobody every gets hurt, it's that I won't hurt them. This is really different, I think.

I'm not sure why, but your point reminds me of something someone said on another discussion forum I participate in. Another person had been defending a particularly offensive spammer saying that banning him violated the spirit of love engendered in Aikido philosophy. One of the responses contained the phrase:

"Sometimes love looks more like a firm nikkyo than a group hug."

This, I think, is something that more Aikidoka should keep in mind.

Kevin Leavitt
02-22-2007, 03:11 PM
My philosphy centers more on having the ability to hurt him, but the compassion and skill to choose not too.

To me, ability also encompasses willingness to hurt.

I am certainly mentally prepared and willing to use extreme, violent, and physical force if necessary.

I train pretty darn near daily to be able to possess the physical skills.

As is the case with most of us...there is a gap, or disparity, between what I am willing to do mentally, what I have the ability to choose to do. I am always trying to shorten that gap.

I personally think aikido does much in the way of assisting us with the mental game, however, I have issues in many cases with the physical reality of what we are teaching....I try not to cofuse the two!

Yes sometimes love is a good nikkyo!

Good discussion!

Kevin Leavitt
02-22-2007, 03:14 PM
As far as attachment on technique goes. Yes philosophically I agree.

In reality though, there are some high percentage things we should have in our "go to" game that work most of the time.

There are things that I typically do and practice that work for me most of the time.

That said, I do beleive the bulk of your practice should center around principal oriented training, that gives you a sound basis...otherwise, when you hit that point of failure in your kit bag of things, you can respond appropriately..hopefully, and roll with it.

This is a tricky area for sure, as you always want to allow the situation to develop based on the principles. i.e. if you are trying to beat a round peg into a squarehole by forcing something that is not apppropriate for the conditions presented...well you will lose...so attachment in this sense is bad.

mriehle
02-22-2007, 03:22 PM
I know there are high school wrestlers that could take me down...I have no doubt of it. I bet I could find a few that could take down most people. But then...I don't get in fights with high school wrestlers, so I really don't give a darn...

This paragraph nicely illustrates the problem with these discussions. They always fall prey to the "What if" monster.

No amount of training, no type of training will make you invincible. The ultimate martial art (to borrow from a wonderful book by C.M. Shifflet) is thermonuclear weapons (nikkyo that :eek: ).

I used to tell my "tough guy" students that there is always an element of luck in any physical encounter. You cannot remove luck altogether. Life is just like that. What you can do is to reduce the role luck plays.

For the record, they didn't much like that lecture, but they were more inclined to respect me as a teacher afterward. They were looking for realistic expectations and that was it. They would have liked to hear that Aikido would make them invincible, but they wouldn't have believed it in any case.

Ron Tisdale
02-22-2007, 03:30 PM
They would have liked to hear that Aikido would make them invincible, but they wouldn't have believed it in any case

If they had any sense! ;)

Best,
Ron

mriehle
02-22-2007, 03:31 PM
As far as attachment on technique goes. Yes philosophically I agree.

In reality though, there are some high percentage things we should have in our "go to" game that work most of the time.

I actually don't think these things are in conflict. Of course you will have a toolkit of favorite or "go to" techniques. Attachment starts when you will stick to those even when they clearly are the wrong thing for the situation.

A sort of ridiculously extreme example is the gun at 20 feet scenario. If you *really* believe you're going to disarm that guy, you're going to die. Better to find another tactic (like covering and running, maybe).

This is a tricky area for sure, as you always want to allow the situation to develop based on the principles. i.e. if you are trying to beat a round peg into a squarehole by forcing something that is not apppropriate for the conditions presented...well you will lose...so attachment in this sense is bad.

My contention is that attachment will inevitably lead you to beating the round peg into the square hole.

But, as you say, this is a tricky part of training. To do it effectively (at least for kata training) you need a co-operative partner even though what you are training for is an inherently non-cooperative situation. The contradiction is not lost on me and I'm still working out the best ways to deal with this (for me).

mriehle
02-22-2007, 03:36 PM
If they had any sense! ;)


Well, as a rule, the ones without such sense dropped out of the class pretty quickly. Sometimes right after I'd accepted their challenge and flattened them.

Gotta remember: when faced with a power struggle, redirect, don't win.

Somehow not that easy when they're taking a swing at you. ;)

Budd
02-22-2007, 05:10 PM
You raise a good point, and one I'll honestly admit I wasn't considering when we were initially talking about sparring and winning or losing.

Sometimes folks have to feel like they're getting the better of you -- even in non-competitive settings. Though I'm not sure if you meant it this way, I think I would disagree with you that sparring is necessarily about winning or losing and would apply the same mentality you spoke of regarding jiyu waza to that paradigm as well.

In general, and I think the thread is headed this way, my feeling is that it's good to balance appropriate mindset with the proper physical conditioning (and where the 'baseline skills' as mentioned in other threads fits in to this is something I'll admit to being very interested in exploring).

Cyrijl
02-23-2007, 08:32 AM
Ron,
My point is that the stories are written as if they are universal. And they are not.

Ron Tisdale
02-23-2007, 08:55 AM
Well of course not! case by case, as always... :)

Best,
Ron

Armin Quast
02-23-2007, 09:11 AM
Refering to the answer given to my last post in this thread: If you count the so called "laws" you're right. Nevertheless, somone else said that he'd rather refer to the principles taught than to the techniques in a real street fighting situation and I must say: Yes, that's really true.
All together that would lead us to the following situation:
You could be attacked by let's say ten opponents. If they are proud of their laws or let's call it their own "codex" - whatever it might look like, because they aren't all the same - and you use what you've been training for at least several years to fight back - then you can win or at least survive such a fight without any bad injuries.
Unless the are being unfair and use weapons like shotguns or something like that or even just attack nearly all at the same time with deadly weapons: this would be the worst case scenario and then you could be happy only to have survived - if you then do so.