PDA

View Full Version : Aikido vs Brazilian Jujutsu


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


shidoin
02-16-2007, 04:25 PM
hello all OSU! I'm a 2nd kyu in Yoshinkan Aikido. Has anyone ever used Aikido on a well Trained BJJ man? it disturbes me that they think they and many people are the greatest, How does Aikido stand up? Real answers please not the traditional Bla Bla

Steven
02-16-2007, 05:34 PM
Matt --

This topic has been beat to death. Did you try using the search function for this topic?

shidoin
02-16-2007, 05:44 PM
nothing found i'll keep looking. thank you for the reply OSU!

Steven
02-16-2007, 07:16 PM
search on bjj, ground grappling, UFC, brazilian, gracie or any combination thereof

Kevin Leavitt
02-17-2007, 03:52 AM
That would require me to fight myself and I would probably explode due to the confusion and chaos it caused my brain.

FWIW, there are many of us on Aikiweb that study both aikido and BJJ, do a search as has been recomemnded, we have had many discussions and if you read through the threads you will get most of your questions answered.

If you have a particular question though concerning BJJ and Aikido and how the apply, differ, intersect...there are many that will offer insight from our experiences.

Kevin Leavitt
02-17-2007, 04:08 AM
You want a real answer? go to a BJJ dojo and see how you fair against one of their well trained students. BTW, they consider a well trained student to be a purple, brown, or black belt...but roll with a blue belt just the same.

Then come back and tell us of your experiences and impressions. Then we will have something to talk about!

Step One: will find is two different paradigms in study that don't superficially match up well. Inevitiably you will find yourself playing by their rules the way BJJ is trained, is more conducive for non-compliant, safe, alive training. It that situation, most aikido people will find themselves being owned.

Step two, Dissonance sets in. You then throw the multiple opponent, no rules, no weapons, card on the table and in your mind you dismiss all the new experiences of getting owned as not being realistic or very smart.

Step three: you come back to aikiweb and say that they are playing with rules, you could not use groin shots, eye gouges, atemi, or weapons, and that it would change things if you could.

Both BJJ and AIkido have good elements in them. Most find that they work very, very well together.

Look through the search feature, or I assume you have already been to other websites that debate this topic so you have seen all the arguments.

I recommend looking past them, and stop the comparison.

the core question is this: What do you want to be able to do with your training?

Aikido and BJJ offer some very good things.

Aristeia
02-17-2007, 06:07 AM
Step two, Dissonance sets in. You then throw the multiple opponent, no rules, no weapons, card on the table and in your mind you dismiss all the new experiences of getting owned as not being realistic or very smart.As always Kevin has omoplata'd the correct. The point I quoted reminds me of a story my BJJ coach John Will tells. His first night on a BJJ mat (Rorions school ims). He's a very experienced martial artist, multiple black belts, and editor of Blitz magazine. So he figures he's pretty good. Then he spends the night getting his ass handed to him up and down the mat by a tiny woman. This makes him unhappy and he spends the evening seething in his hotel room. He gets to the inevitable "The rules made me play their game, Why if I'd been allowed to eye gouge there's no way she would have choked me out 10 times..."

And then he stops.

And says to himself

"hang on- is this what my 20 years of martial arts training has come down to? Eye gouge or get choked out? Is that it, is that all I've got?"

So he makes the decision to start training and eventually becomes one of the first non Brazillian black belts in the art.

I like the story alot. The shift from performing every piece of mental gymnastics you can think of to defend your paradigm to suddenly being open realising there is actually something to learn here is something that has much wider application...

statisticool
02-17-2007, 07:23 AM
hello all OSU! I'm a 2nd kyu in Yoshinkan Aikido. Has anyone ever used Aikido on a well Trained BJJ man? it disturbes me that they think they and many people are the greatest, How does Aikido stand up? Real answers please not the traditional Bla Bla

http://www.statisticool.com/bestma.htm

Keith R Lee
02-17-2007, 08:18 AM
I'll just put this here because the thread has BJJ in the title.

Thornton has a new blog post up entitled " Exploring the Map . . ."

One of the most common questions I am asked when I travel and teach is this. . ."what do I need to work on?" As a coach you will need to get used to being asked this, it is part of the job.

The answer to this question will of course be individualized to a great degree. But over the last ten years of Coaching BJJ I have also become aware of certain patterns that most athletes will follow in one form or another. It's the journey all BJJ players undertake, and to explain my own personal vision of it as a Coach and teacher I often use a map analogy.

Imagine for a moment that the Art and science of BJJ is all diagramed out on a large map. Your job as a teacher and Coach is to help the student to first be able to read and navigate on the map, and then to begin to explore the map. As the individual becomes more adept at traveling the territory of the map, they begin to gain greater degrees of performance skill and understanding of the Art of BJJ...

http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/

A good read and one relevant to any martial art I think, not just BJJ.

RoyK
02-17-2007, 08:20 AM
I studied for a short time under a sandan Yoshinkan instructor who felt BJJ is complementary to his Aikdio, and now he teaches them both, sometimes separately and sometimes mashed up together. It's interesting to see how a technique can start in the aikido domain and end in the BJJ domain.

gdandscompserv
02-17-2007, 08:39 AM
i'm going to start training in Brazilian jujutsu right after i've mastered aikido. :D

shidoin
02-17-2007, 09:37 AM
What I have seen from the Gracie video's is that when a Trained martial artist is up against one of the Gracies, they seem to lose all of their teachings. One video I saw was BJJ against a Hapkido black belt. Gracie rushed in with his arm extended, and the dude runs backwards. I would have pivoted away ended up at the side and thrown with kotegaeshi or Hiji. I think in our dojo's we should train more against such attacks. BJJ is a fast growing sport, we need to revise the way we train, Start defending against grappling and punches, and stop focusing on wrist grabs.

Jorge Garcia
02-17-2007, 09:48 AM
BJJ is a fast growing sport, we need to revise the way we train, Start defending against grappling and punches, and stop focusing on wrist grabs.

Matt,
It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training.
I recommend reading the book,The Spirit of Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, son of the Founder.
I will provide you a free study guide if you send me a pm with your email address.
Best wishes,
Jorge

shidoin
02-17-2007, 09:55 AM
I do have the book! I'm not sure how to pm u? I'm new to this site could you please guide me.

Mark Freeman
02-17-2007, 10:31 AM
I do have the book! I'm not sure how to pm u? I'm new to this site could you please guide me.

Just click on the members name, and then on send message. That will get you there.

regards

Mark

Kevin Leavitt
02-17-2007, 10:31 AM
I love that hapikido vs bjj video. Gracies in Action are very interesting to watch. I am always laughing at Rorion narrating it. Very propagantistic, but true at the same time.

I'd counter your argument and say aikido does not need to change and start practicing for these things, if it did, then it would evolve in to BJJ quite rapidily.

It is a different range and focus of training.

You might need to start training that way though. If it is important to you, don't waste time trying to figure out how to do it on your own, find a good BJJ dojo and do what they have already figured out. Why reinvent the wheel?

The way we train aikido teaches some very valuable lessons that I fear would be lost if we changed the focus too much.

Hehehe....yeah I know what you mean about pivoting etc. You might been able to do it, then again, those Gracies are pretty good at what they do and would probably just set you up differently. In the end, unless you are going to run off the mat, which is not an option if the goal is to stay and fight...they are going to get you!

Watch the first UFCs with Royce, remember, they could do all that too, and kick and punch and he still closed the distance and took control.

DonMagee
02-17-2007, 11:42 AM
This kind of ties in to my thread on non traditional training methods.

I do not believe that aikido should start to train bjj techniques or even how to deal with a 'bjj guy'. I do believe that aikido schools should try to incorporate more alive drills. Drills that give uke a goal he will see though to either his success of demise. This will focus nage to become more creative, see the openings much sooner, and adapt to changing situations. It will cause uke to learn what does and does not work, and thus he will get better at attacking, so nage will have to get better with dealing with him.

This is what makes judo and bjj so uplifting in such a short period of time. As I get better at an armbar from the guard, everyone in my club gets better at defending against it, thus forcing me to learn new things, or get even better at my armbar. Its a positive uplifting circle.

As for aikido vs bjj, Unless you have a lot of hard sparing experience, maybe judo or wrestling, or full contact karate. You will not be prepared for what happens. However, I think it will be good for you in the long run to still give it a try. Just don't take it personal if you are unsuccessful. Just figure out what you can improve on, and improve on it.

Roy Dean
02-17-2007, 11:43 AM
Matt,

I spent many years in Aikido and am also a well trained BJJ man. I know precisely the questioning and curiosity the videos trigger in you as an Aikidoka. I went through that same process.

But questioning wasn't enough for me, I needed experiential truth. And I got it. So know that my words come through experience, what I have found through many hours on the mat.

I can list reasons why this technique might work or that wouldn't work, and others may disagree. So the way to shortcut all of that is to try it out. Do it. Feel it. Have the experience, then compartmentalize it in your mind. It's easy to get side stepped from reality if you trust too much in mental reflections like words rather than what the martial experience ACTUALLY IS.

Aikido and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu share many of the same principles. Turn from resistance, don't oppose force on force, yield and redirect. The techniques are not identical, but achieve similar effects for the affected joints (ikkyo= armlock, kimura/omoplata= shihonage). The ukemi of Aikido and ground movements of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu are interlinked. Aikido really teaches you how to flow and be round when approaching movement on the ground. How to be a ball rather than a cube. The movement parallels are there, but then again, I think they're present in almost all jujutsu styles.

Questions such as yours motivated me to begin the E-Journal of Jujutsu (EJJ). In this first issue, Bruce Bookman, Aikido 6th dan and brown belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu discusses the connections and similarities between the two arts. I highly encourage you to read his article.

www.jujutsujournal.com

I also encourage you to experience Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for yourself. It is a modern budo, and would only enhance your Aikido skills.

But most importantly, it's incredibly fun!

Roy Dean

Kevin Leavitt
02-17-2007, 12:48 PM
Roy,

Still need to finish reading it, but I have enjoyed it so far. Excellent quality magazine, mature, experienced and insightful.

This is where I think we all need to be as martial artist and budoka. Thanks.

As someone wrote in another thread, I am amazed at how far we have evolved in the community since the early days of aikido-l listserv. Either that or my eyes are now open to something I never saw before.

shidoin
02-17-2007, 06:03 PM
Thanks for the info Don! What is your opinion on the matter? will Aikido work against a BJJ man or not? I trained in Japanese Jujutsu for a few years and it was ok. The whole reason for switching to Aikido was because the movements of JJ seemed unnatural to me, But when I started Aikido it was like I was supposed to be there. I also hate ground fighting, it does not interest me at all, but I did gain skillis from my JJ training and I think that many Aikido movements can still be applied while on the ground I speak of Joint locks, locking the foot and knee, and trying to take uke off balance to gain control. But if it were a real fight, there are no rules, and I would turn to girl movements, bite, spit, pull hair, claw, and throw dirt in the eye, if that's what I had to do to save my butt.

shidoin
02-17-2007, 07:11 PM
sorry I mean Roy, a little A.D.D. thing I have goin on :freaky:

DonMagee
02-17-2007, 07:52 PM
I think aikido can work, the question I have to ask is if the person is prepared to deal with a trained sport fighter. I'd have to look at the persons physical shape, see how their cardio is, etc. Its a whole different world of training. Most aikidoka do not train in a manner that is going to prepare them for a confrontation with a well trained athlete. The biggest mistake I think an aikido person could do is try to grapple with a bjj guys. I would suggest striking and moving. Grabbing onto a bjj guy gives him power (at least that is how I feel when someone grabs me, that they are feeding me). So I would go for more throws and less attempts to joint lock or grab. You also have to remember that bjj guys, like wrestlers and judo guys, tipically have very good balance. They are also ok with taking a hard hit if that means they can drag you into their world. If you let that happen, then all is lost (unless you have trained submission grappling). But if you could manage to keep the bjj guy off balance, on his feet, and moving, the question comes do you have the cardio to wear him out. If you can do that, you can beat him.

Now the reverse side of this is that if you trained throws and submisson as 'hard' as bjj guys train their stuff, then you probably will be able to do it against a fully resisting oppoenet, and thus you stand a much better chance. Again, allow me to point to my drill thread in the technique area that I feel would help improve chances of using techniques in physical resistant encounters such as this.

Or of course you could get a fat, weak, out of shape, unskilled, bjjer. They do exist contrary to popular belief. Its just that if they stick with it, they usually don't' stay that way long.

So the question is not can aikido beat bjj. Its do you train in a way that will give you the tools needed to deal with the way that person trains. I have to say that for the average non sport fighter, the answer is no, because they do not train vigorously enough, or with the right training methods to deal with a person who trains the way a sport fighter trains. Of course add a little Matt Thornton into your training and the odds improve. It also helps if you were a bad mofo before you started training in martial arts.

So I say, go give it a try. That is what I did. See if what you know works against them. Some of them will even be willing to suspend some rules to help you. At that point, take stock in what worked and what didn't. Then go and figure out why you failed at the stuff that didn't. See what you can do to improve it, and how you can change your training to make you better. That doesn't mean switch to bjj if you get wrecked. It just means adjust how you train if dealing with a well trained athlete is important to you.

Aristeia
02-18-2007, 01:04 AM
I think that many Aikido movements can still be applied while on the ground I speak of Joint locks, locking the foot and knee

Actually not so much. Going for "aikido" moves is often a poor choice. They are not going to work unless uke is seriously controlled which means
1. you've probably done a bunch of ground training to control them in the first place
2. there are better finishing options

I sometimes use Aikido moves (by which I mean finishing techs) on the BJJ mat - but it's usually a sure sign I'm just showing off.


, and trying to take uke off balance to gain control.
That's more like it. Only thing is the way you do that while strategically very similar to Aikido is tactically quite different.

But if it were a real fight, there are no rules, and I would turn to girl movements, bite, spit, pull hair, claw, and throw dirt in the eye, if that's what I had to do to save my butt.
I don't know about anyone else, but I always find this approach a little amusing. Because iften it comes from people who have spent alot of time training themselves in very sophisticated methods of defence and attack standing. But once you hit the ground that approach is going to go out the window for biting and spitting? If that's effective- why not just take that approach standing as well and stop training altogether?

Kevin Leavitt
02-18-2007, 02:04 AM
about once a month I get a new student who brings up the whole bite, scratch, gouge thing into the equation.

I say, okay, then I can do it too...right?

we then proceed to roll, slowly of course and i let them go down that path.

They quickly change their mind in a few seconds.

We forget that BJJ guys well play by the rules you establish....we have no issue with that. You want to do that, we will to. You want to stick, kick,...okay...i am game.

Those things cancel each other out, and the guy with the superior ground gain that can dominate and control is the guy that effectively makes use of those tools.

Matt I understand that you hate ground fighting and it may feel un-natural to you, however, if you consider this a viable threat and a fear that is important to conquer, then you owe it to yourself to learn it. You opponent will not care how you feel about it.

It was a very intimidating experience as a aikidoka the first time I went to the ground, I was a fish out of water and it was a huge hit to my ego to have to go back to ground zero.

2 years later, I love the ground. Like Don, I love to be grabbed now, I relish when you make contact with me.

I have learned to work in a tighter circle than aikido and I am learning now how to re-open back up that distance that I need to move again.

My advice is to learn ground grappling for what it is. Don't look at it as a complete answer to all fighting as it is not.

It is up to you to take your experiences and combine them into a game that works for you.

deepsoup
02-18-2007, 04:58 AM
I studied for a short time under a sandan Yoshinkan instructor who felt BJJ is complementary to his Aikdio, and now he teaches them both, sometimes separately and sometimes mashed up together. It's interesting to see how a technique can start in the aikido domain and end in the BJJ domain.

I think I've practiced briefly with the same guy; a few sessions at a UK Shodokan annual seminar thingy, Gadi Shorr and Alon Cohen were there as guest instructors. Excellent stuff, and as you say, no contradiction at all between the aikido and the BJJ.

Michael Douglas
02-18-2007, 06:19 AM
...
I don't know about anyone else, but I always find this approach a little amusing. Because iften it comes from people who have spent alot of time training themselves in very sophisticated methods of defence and attack standing. But once you hit the ground that approach is going to go out the window for biting and spitting? If that's effective- why not just take that approach standing as well and stop training altogether?

Or better still why not take that approach and START training that way ...

Kevin Leavitt
02-18-2007, 11:16 AM
What? Start training on just scratching and biting etc?

The reason we don't train this way in principle centered arts like aikido and BJJ is that they are all about acheiving dominance or taking balance, that is what makes them work.

Punching, kicking, biting, scratching etc are all things that we do instinctively and what my good friend Matt Larsen calls the "universal fight plan". We all possess the ability to do these things already.

To become better fighters we need to learn how to do the things we learn to do in aikido and BJJ. We can isolate out all that other stuff, one because we already know how to do them, two, it is safer to train without them, three, we can better focus on learning core and fundamentals without their distraction.

Once we learn how to dominate, take center, or control, we can add that stuff back in to the mix and we are better fighters.

Hebrew Hammer
02-19-2007, 11:28 PM
Greetings Everyone,
This is my first post on here and as they say on talk radio, first time caller long time listener.

My impressions on this debate, and I've seen it covered on other forums, are that BJJ poses no greater threat to Aikido than does a well trained Wrestler or Judo practitioner. BJJ has just exploded in popularity especially with its effectiveness in the MMA, UFC, Pride fighting scene. That being said it can be and has been countered and effectively defeated by superior striking, counter attack, and effective take down defense. Like all styles it has its strengths and weaknesses. It is not all encompassing or monolithic nor do I believe that they think it is.

I think there is a certain amount of Aikido insecurity about this style out there, especially with outsiders or those new to the art(like myself), but maybe not with those well established in the art. Aikido has its own mystique and certainly its strengths and weaknesses as well. You can debate techniques and moves all you want but there are far too many variables to determine a winner or winning style, Roy said it best in that the only way to find out is to train for it. That is perhaps where some of this doubt or insecurity may arrise from, is that there are few Aikidoka who train for effective take down defense. (Maybe I'm wrong, please correct me if I am).

As a newbie, that is the one thing that I would suggest for this martial art, especially during Randori. Although I have seen dozens of impressive clips of Randori, I have yet to see even one attempt at a single or a double leg take down. IMHO your are doing yourself a huge injustice if you don't train for at least one or more opponents attempting to steal your center/movement by attacking your legs. In a real Budo situation it will happen.

Thank you for letting me join your wonderful forum.

Kevin

Kevin Leavitt
02-20-2007, 12:08 AM
Welcome to Aikiweb Kevin! thanks for your comments and addition to thread.

There are those out there that will practice leg sweeps and takedowns. However you are correct they are not done too often it seems.

Thalib
02-20-2007, 02:51 AM
Basically did some grappling before.. go to this and that seminar... get my ass kicked every time...

Judo guys pinned me every time... BJJ guys... the same

So I came to the conclusion that I guess this style is not for me... I suck!

Safe to say, I won't go up against any grappling guys and play their game, neither I would go up to the ring or cage or whatever for that matter...

Life is dangerous enough as it is, don't really like go looking for trouble...

These guys are good at what they do... I'll just stay out of their way... Even if I have to, I'll do a tactical retreat...

DonMagee
02-20-2007, 07:27 AM
I wouldn't say you suck. I would just say you were not willing to dedicate time to get good at it.

I don't suck at kendo, I just don't feel like dedicating time to become good at it. (Actually, it looks like a lot of fun, just no clubs around here).

Edward
02-20-2007, 09:48 AM
For someone who has done both Judo and Aikido, and leaving aside the circumstancial factors and the body build and athletism of the opponents as well as their experience, I am personally convinced that BJJ is going to be the obvious winner in a match. However I feel that an Aikido practitioner will be more efficient than a BJJ one of similar body build and experience in a situation of pure self-defense.

Kevin Leavitt
02-20-2007, 10:48 AM
I wouldn't draw either of those conclusions Edward. it depends on too many factors.

I will say that if you do not know how to grapple or at least clinch or avoid the takedown properly, you will be in a world of hurt in most fights though.

Thalib
02-20-2007, 07:30 PM
I wouldn't say you suck. I would just say you were not willing to dedicate time to get good at it.

I don't suck at kendo, I just don't feel like dedicating time to become good at it. (Actually, it looks like a lot of fun, just no clubs around here).

Actually you have a good point...

Or maybe it's not my cup of tea as the saying goes...

mikebalko
03-12-2007, 01:04 AM
To answer this question, grab a jo,boken or tanto and ask a bjj guy to try to take you to the ground and tap you out. First you won't find one who will be willing to even try, second if you do, even if you are awful at weapons the other guy is going to the emergency room, even if he is a Gracie.
Ever notice how in the Gracie propaganda videos and in the UFC the guys adopt a fighting stance and dance around and feint before engaging? This gives you plenty of time to draw a concealed weapon,if the other guy had one he would be trying to kill you with it instead.
As far as bjj guys using eye/groin strikes if you do, anybody who has sparred under those rules enough( never met a bjj or mma guy who has or wanted to, and I asked the crew the current UFC world champion in one weight category trains with) knows that bjj is not designed to deal with that kind of defender.If a bjjj attacker had any ability at using those skills he would use them standing instead of going for the takedown which makes him extremely vulnerable in comparison to doing a double leg takedown on a kickboxer for example.There is a huge difference in these types of standup.Have your sparring partner put on eye protection, a cup and gloves and experience the difference. Claiming that you can use these tactics without ever training them at all or with the same intensity you do your groundwork is the equivalent of a purely stand up guy( Boxer,M.T.,) claiming he can fight on the ground without ever having practiced ground grappling. Spar your stand up this way and the majority of ''fights'' will not end up with both guys rolling around on top of each other, if you are insightful enough you will no longer have any doubts about the effectiveness of aikido for self defense, you might even come to appreciate the practical use of training defenses against wrist grabs;)

Kevin Leavitt
03-12-2007, 01:45 AM
So Mike, I will assume that you have sparred against a mildly experienced BJJer, or UFC type? You have found this to be true on a personal level?

What are your personal experiences sparring in these types of scenarios?

How did you hold up?

What did you find useful and applicable? What did not work for you?

xuzen
03-12-2007, 02:13 AM
To answer this question, grab a jo,boken or tanto and ask a bjj guy to try to take you to the ground and tap you out. First you won't find one who will be willing to even try, second if you do, even if you are awful at weapons the other guy is going to the emergency room, even if he is a Gracie.
Ever notice how in the Gracie propaganda videos and in the UFC the guys adopt a fighting stance and dance around and feint before engaging? This gives you plenty of time to draw a concealed weapon,if the other guy had one he would be trying to kill you with it instead.
As far as bjj guys using eye/groin strikes if you do, anybody who has sparred under those rules enough( never met a bjj or mma guy who has or wanted to, and I asked the crew the current UFC world champion in one weight category trains with) knows that bjj is not designed to deal with that kind of defender.If a bjjj attacker had any ability at using those skills he would use them standing instead of going for the takedown which makes him extremely vulnerable in comparison to doing a double leg takedown on a kickboxer for example.There is a huge difference in these types of standup.Have your sparring partner put on eye protection, a cup and gloves and experience the difference. Claiming that you can use these tactics without ever training them at all or with the same intensity you do your groundwork is the equivalent of a purely stand up guy( Boxer,M.T.,) claiming he can fight on the ground without ever having practiced ground grappling. Spar your stand up this way and the majority of ''fights'' will not end up with both guys rolling around on top of each other, if you are insightful enough you will no longer have any doubts about the effectiveness of aikido for self defense, you might even come to appreciate the practical use of training defenses against wrist grabs;)

Mike, BJJ is a grappling sports/art. It works best in a given scenario i.e., one-on-one, padded mat, no interference from lava, broken glass etc and no multiple opponents.

Aikido work best when the opponent is so enraged and blind with fury, he lost all rationality that he/she comes charging at you without scant regards to his safety or anyone else. He/She forgot about distancing or balancing.

There, two arts meant for different Combative scenario. Combat is so complex, that is why in any modern army organization, you have the Delta boys, marines, GI etc to serve the different needs.

I see both arts as specialization in their own zone. They both work... in their context.

Boon.

barry.clemons
03-12-2007, 02:14 AM
With this question, I profess my ignorance of BJJ; but I have a question for you, Mr. Leavitt.

In your experience with BJJ/ground fighting, how would you say it fairs against multiple attackers at once; the 3-5 attacker randori one would expect to see in Aikido?

xuzen
03-12-2007, 02:21 AM
With this question, I profess my ignorance of BJJ; but I have a question for you, Mr. Leavitt.

In your experience with BJJ/ground fighting, how would you say it fairs against multiple attackers at once; the 3-5 attacker randori one would expect to see in Aikido?

I think they do what most Sane and Rational people would do... PLEAD, BEG FOR MERCY, RUN or AK-47 jutsu.

Boon.

barry.clemons
03-12-2007, 02:36 AM
AK-47 jutsu. that's good. lol.

I know what you mean; but I'm talking in a training environment of course!

That's my personal issue with ground fighting vs. Aikido; how does it address the multiple attacker scenario if your comfort zone/goal is submission via takedown? I don't want to be quick to judge, as I've said before I've no experience in it. But I'm thinking worst case scenario; to me, that's not a place you want to be unless all four of your limbs can handle their own attacker equally on the ground.

Aristeia
03-12-2007, 08:57 AM
I think BJJ deals with that multiple attacker scenario about as well as Aikido.

Kevin Leavitt
03-12-2007, 10:37 AM
Barry wrote:

With this question, I profess my ignorance of BJJ; but I have a question for you, Mr. Leavitt.

In your experience with BJJ/ground fighting, how would you say it fairs against multiple attackers at once; the 3-5 attacker randori one would expect to see in Aikido?

Hehe...boon answered it.

Seriouslly, this is a very tricky and loaded question. One that I demonstrated last week as to why it is important to have ground skills in a multiple opponent scenario.

It is difficult for me to answer as I am not a purely BJJ or Aikido guy.

Don Magee might pop in here and comment as well at some point.

To me multiple opponent scenarios are very tricky to answer as they present many variables.

However I had to answer in a few words without qualification...i'd say what Michael Fooks said "about as well as aikido".

How do you eat an elephant? One piece at a time.

Same with multiple opponents, but you may be able to multitask a little.

I think a strength that BJJ did give me is that when i used to get "tonque tied" in Randori, I can sustain myself a little better from training the clinch range whereas before, I'd get to fighting with the guy and not really know what to do inside that range except struggle.

I think there is a bit of dissonance in aikido that somehow randori as commonly practiced gives us "leg up" on other arts through a set of skills that translates to being able to handle multiple opponents, when in reality it does noy, the skills and principles we learn doing randori are technically correct, and may even apply tactically to a degree, but nothing translates in training to 100% reality (to include BJJ).

A big part of this, from my experience is that randori does teach and reinforce the importance of irimi, tenkan, and maintaining space and timing, and positional relation such as triangulation, entering and spliting opponents...but typcially stops the practice once you are "tied up" and the "fight begins".

BJJ typically trains from the point of failure (clinch) and works from there.

It is sort of like how Judo is commonly practiced. They get really good at the throws, but maybe not so good at newaza, because they emphasize a particular aspect of of the fight spectrum.

I tend to not practice multiple opponent too much as in eating the elephant you do this one piece at a time. I think it best to train from all ranges of combat with one person that is influencing closing distance (ma'ai) and then working within the clinch to ground work. then once you can deal these, occassionally your break up the spectrum of ranges and apply it to multiple persons.

An over generalization would be that aikido guys practice moving, irimi, tekan and avoidance and BJJ guys ignore this and move into the clinch.

in reality in a real fight as an over generalization, Aikido guys get caught and can't get out of the clinch and BJJ guys fixate on the clinch and get trapped by multiple opponents...hence they deal with it about equally as well!

it is all situationally dependent. We shouldn't assume that BJJ guys are so dumb that they don't know how to disengage and run. How fast do they have to run? Only a little faster than the aikido guy! :) (couldn't resist that one!)

Kevin Leavitt
03-12-2007, 10:53 AM
Barry wrote:

That's my personal issue with ground fighting vs. Aikido; how does it address the multiple attacker scenario if your comfort zone/goal is submission via takedown? I don't want to be quick to judge, as I've said before I've no experience in it. But I'm thinking worst case scenario; to me, that's not a place you want to be unless all four of your limbs can handle their own attacker equally on the ground.

yes true, you don't want to end up on the ground. Fights are all predicated on choice (or lack of it). For some reason, probably because we want to believe that we won't be in these situations, we typcially assume that we somehow had choice in the fact that we did not end up on the ground.

When you start looking at rreality, all your training really starts focusing on points of failure or worse case scenario. It is not that you WANT to end up on the ground, you simply may not have any choice in it.

Remember in a fight your opponent wants to impose his will on you in a physical manner. If attacked, the element of suprise is one that most people, even those less skilled in martial arts intuitively understand is important to exploit. they intuitively understand that in order to beat you, they must off balance you. they use suprise, audacity, and speed to accomplish this.

One of the training affects I think we get in aikido is that we assume equal stance and start with a certain level of a priori knowledge.

so called Groundfighting is good in this respect because it starts the fight typically from a point of disadvantage or a point of failure. It may be in the clinch range, it may be on the ground.

realitively speaking, things like kicking, hitting and running, scratching, biting etc are all low tech, low skill things. That is, we are all born with the basic ability to to these things and they don't require much training. Being able to do these while dominating, or being dominated, or as a tactic to disenage from a fight does not really take a whole lot of training.

Either you can run away, or you cannot. If you cannot, you might be able to irimi tenkan and buy time to escape, or eventually you are caught...and then what???

deepsoup
03-12-2007, 11:18 AM
I think BJJ deals with that multiple attacker scenario about as well as Aikido.
:)

mikebalko
03-12-2007, 02:33 PM
So Mike, I will assume that you have sparred against a mildly experienced BJJer, or UFC type? You have found this to be true on a personal level?

What are your personal experiences sparring in these types of scenarios?

How did you hold up?

What did you find useful and applicable? What did not work for you?

"mildly experienced"? Where did you get that from? Everything I have posted and will post is based on personal experience.What I noticed is that the guys who accepted were just as experienced as those who didn't in terms of rank and time training bjj. Those who didn't were much higher ranked in mma and had other real world experience (doorman in a night club, security work) and had already received serious beatings before getting involved in fight sports. They seemed more educated in general and more knowledgeable about self defence v.s sport/competition. None of those who accepted were able to close/clinch and take it to the ground and those who didn't accept stood around and made fun of and laughed at those who did for even trying. Few "aikido techniques" were performed as the openings for the types of strikes I mentioned earlier were always present.When they were not, my sparring partner was bent over in a kind of standing fetal position or on all fours after a failed tackle attempt and had lost sight of me.While they were open to other dangerous strikes, particularly to the back of the neck, spine. I was usually able to just bump or shove them to the ground instead(kokyu nage) :triangle: :square: :circle:

DonMagee
03-12-2007, 02:33 PM
Long day, just bothered to check the web.

BJJ in a multiple attacker situation has its disadvantages and benefits. Of course I do not advocate just bjj for self defense. I advocate alive training for what ever it is you want to deal with. We do a multiple attacker drill from time to time. The main goal is to stay standing while you have 2-5 guys rushing you with no escape and trying to take you down. Once you are down your goal is to stand up under a barrage of slaps and submission attempts. Everyone fails because the drill is designed to make you fail, as you get better we add more attackers.

What does this build? A desire to never give up, experience with how crowds operate and how to move when under physical stress. It deals with how to escape from a clinch, and how to safely disengage from a ground situation. It does not look anything like bjj, but is 100% bjj.

Think about it this way, if you were taken down to the ground, with a guy on top of you and his buddys on the way or on top of you, who would you rather be? A MMA or bjj trained fighter with training on how to properly use his body to protect, escape, and stand up or a person who never or rarely trains in this range, with no sparing, and no idea the kinds of stress that are going to be applied to them.

Its really not that complicated when you get down to it. Who would you rather be in a boxing match? My 11 year old ATA TKD nephew, or Mike Tyson? You train for the type of encounters you expect to engage in.

Did I just support scenario training? Yes and no. I do not belive you should train on how to deal with a bar, then how to deal with a nightclub, then how to deal with a living room like most RBSD arts do. I mean you should train to deal in the ranges and body types you plan to need to defend against. To simplify this I'm going to say there are basically 3 ranges (with sub category's of course) Standing, clinching, and ground. All 3 of these are important. If you cant' deal with a guy striking you, you are in bad shape. If you can't deal with a guy clinching you, you are in bad shape. If you don't know how to deal with the guy that is sitting on your chest..... Do I have to say you are in bad shape?

So the question becomes, do you know what you want from your training? Are you getting it? Are you being realistic and telling the truth about those two questions?

I can't use anyone but myself as an example. I train for a few things
1) For fun and sport. I love the fitness and thrills I get. Am I getting this? Obviously. I am losing weight, getting stronger, and having a blast.
2) To learn how to deal with larger, stronger, opponents.
I'll talk more about this in a bit.
3) My own interest in the history and development of all martial arts.
I accomplish this goal by trying new things, reading tons of books, and trying out tons of martial arts.
4) To eventually pass this down as a teacher.
5) To help further a sport (MMA) that I love.
These last two really need know answer if I am getting that goal done. Obviously by training, I am doing this.

So that leaves number two. How am I working to this goal? Well, the first thing I do is attempt to mitigate the fitness advantage by getting in better physical shape. Obviously sports are one of the better ways to do this. Next, I need to identify my personal weakness. First, I do not have a awesome build. It is hard for me to build muscle, i"m 5'10". I have a job that makes me sit for 10 hours a day. My nose bleeds with mild contact. I have glasses and very very poor eyesight and can not wear contacts.

Next my strengths. I'm small in stature, unassuming, quick, very calculating, dedicated, etc.

A bigger stronger person probably will have none of my weakness. This means I am very vulnerable to strikes. My best tactic will be to close the distance and force a clinch fight. Here the power of a larger man's punches is slightly mitigated. I can use my quickness to force mistakes on the bigger man, further more I can use leverage to then throw him and escape, or submit him on the ground. The strenght advantage is even more reduced on the ground where I can use my technique to force my larger muscle groups against smaller muscle groups (armbar, wristlock, choke, etc) and can disable if needed with 'illegal' techniques. So we know how judo and bjj fit into this. How does aikido fit into this? Well I use the drills to help develop concepts of distance and practice closing the distance with aiki like movements. Once that distance is closed, judo and bjj do the rest of the work for me in an efficient way. Of course I wish I could throw in more MMA sparing and boxing to help develop better head movement and striking defenses. This is a major weak area for me.

How do I accomplish these tactics and make sure I am prepared to use them? Is it showing up to a class 2 days a week? No its though alive drills, against as many different types of people and body types and I can find. These drills help develop proper technique and a good feel for movement in these very small ranges. I then follow this up with sparing in broader ranges such as judo randori, submission wrestling, etc. Finally I try (although I slack off on this too much) to add full MMA sparing.

And the track record has proven far better then any other art I've trained in. Prior to this method, I have trained in martial arts for years. I did TKD (black belt), krav maga, aikido. Yet I could not leverage any of my skills against a green belt judo student or a white belt bjj student when put to the test. Because I did not look realistically at what I was doing and I did not have aliveness in my training. Am I a master now who can take all challengers? HA! far from it. In fact I get beat down 6 days a week. Usually by bigger, stronger guys that I am trying to learn how to deal with. But one thing has changed, I am improving, faster then I ever improved. Anyone who walks in the door with no prior 'sport MA' training I am confident I can spar with and win. This is not because bjj is better, but because aliveness is better. I know my limits, I know myself, and I know how to read what my attacker knows. I know when I'm out classed, and I know when I'm the bigger dog.

I am just now today starting to achieve a level close to what I was so sure I had accomplished when I was not training with aliveness. I was positive that I could not be taken down, that I could kick a guy at will, that I had the anti grapple with eye gouges and leg pinches. I believed everything my instructors told me. Well, rather I questioned it in my heart, but I convinced myself to believe it. And a lot of what they told me was true. That wasn't the problem. The problem was that without aliveness I never developed the sensitivity and physical ability required to actually perform my techniques against someone hell bent on stopping me.

So you ask the question, how does bjj train you to deal with multiple attackers? My answer would be it all depends on how you train your bjj. If you start drilling standing up and escaping clinches, your bjj will help your multiple attacker scenario greatly. This is not to say bjj will teach you to deal with all ranges of a fight, far from it, but it will give you a great foundation, or at the very least help you defend yourself properly should you ever find yourself on the ground.

Finally, to Mike Balko.

I'm more then willing to play with weapons or spar under any rules within reason. I'll allow eye gouges, pinches, biting, safe weapons (no reason to use a boken when kendo people have developed perfectly good tools for us to use). In fact I have done this for time to time to prove a point. The simple fact is most bjj guys do not train to deal with this because they simply do not care about it. The techniques are there, I've seen Carlson Gracie Jr. show standing wrist locks and other traditional defenses. Your post shows how limited your understanding of bjj is. You think its all double leg takedowns and chokes. Our bjj club knows many good judo throws. Beyond that many proper techniques are designed to protect your eyes and throat from attacks. We just don't talk about it because we simply do not care. That's why the mount is so important, you can hit them, then can not create any leverage to hit you. Can they go for the groin? Sure but they take a much greater risk, namely staying conscious long enough to attack the groin while they get blows rained down smashing their head between the ground and a fist/elbow/forearm/palm. It seems to me a proper defense to protect your head then escape would be a much better idea. I like my skull in once piece.

This is not to say that sport aspect is not leaking in. I've watched people told to do things that would get you killed on the street, like see if you do this he can't hit you because striking to the back of the head is illegal. Again though, it comes down to being honest with yourself and your goals.

And besides, I really do not see a street fight going beyond that first Harai I throw. Especially if I revert to competition mode and land on his chest.

barry.clemons
03-12-2007, 02:50 PM
Kevin/Don,

JEEZE. My eyes are burning after reading all that! I need some Visine.

These answers were exactly what I was hoping for. :D

Long day, just bothered to check the web.

BJJ in a multiple attacker situation has its disadvantages and benefits. Of course I do not advocate just bjj for self defense. I advocate alive training for what ever it is you want to deal with. We do a multiple attacker drill from time to time. The main goal is to stay standing while you have 2-5 guys rushing you with no escape and trying to take you down. Once you are down your goal is to stand up under a barrage of slaps and submission attempts. Everyone fails because the drill is designed to make you fail, as you get better we add more attackers.

What does this build? A desire to never give up, experience with how crowds operate and how to move when under physical stress. It deals with how to escape from a clinch, and how to safely disengage from a ground situation. It does not look anything like bjj, but is 100% bjj.

Think about it this way, if you were taken down to the ground, with a guy on top of you and his buddys on the way or on top of you, who would you rather be? A MMA or bjj trained fighter with training on how to properly use his body to protect, escape, and stand up or a person who never or rarely trains in this range, with no sparing, and no idea the kinds of stress that are going to be applied to them.

Its really not that complicated when you get down to it. Who would you rather be in a boxing match? My 11 year old ATA TKD nephew, or Mike Tyson? You train for the type of encounters you expect to engage in.

Did I just support scenario training? Yes and no. I do not belive you should train on how to deal with a bar, then how to deal with a nightclub, then how to deal with a living room like most RBSD arts do. I mean you should train to deal in the ranges and body types you plan to need to defend against. To simplify this I'm going to say there are basically 3 ranges (with sub category's of course) Standing, clinching, and ground. All 3 of these are important. If you cant' deal with a guy striking you, you are in bad shape. If you can't deal with a guy clinching you, you are in bad shape. If you don't know how to deal with the guy that is sitting on your chest..... Do I have to say you are in bad shape?

So the question becomes, do you know what you want from your training? Are you getting it? Are you being realistic and telling the truth about those two questions?

I can't use anyone but myself as an example. I train for a few things
1) For fun and sport. I love the fitness and thrills I get. Am I getting this? Obviously. I am losing weight, getting stronger, and having a blast.
2) To learn how to deal with larger, stronger, opponents.
I'll talk more about this in a bit.
3) My own interest in the history and development of all martial arts.
I accomplish this goal by trying new things, reading tons of books, and trying out tons of martial arts.
4) To eventually pass this down as a teacher.
5) To help further a sport (MMA) that I love.
These last two really need know answer if I am getting that goal done. Obviously by training, I am doing this.

So that leaves number two. How am I working to this goal? Well, the first thing I do is attempt to mitigate the fitness advantage by getting in better physical shape. Obviously sports are one of the better ways to do this. Next, I need to identify my personal weakness. First, I do not have a awesome build. It is hard for me to build muscle, i"m 5'10". I have a job that makes me sit for 10 hours a day. My nose bleeds with mild contact. I have glasses and very very poor eyesight and can not wear contacts.

Next my strengths. I'm small in stature, unassuming, quick, very calculating, dedicated, etc.

A bigger stronger person probably will have none of my weakness. This means I am very vulnerable to strikes. My best tactic will be to close the distance and force a clinch fight. Here the power of a larger man's punches is slightly mitigated. I can use my quickness to force mistakes on the bigger man, further more I can use leverage to then throw him and escape, or submit him on the ground. The strenght advantage is even more reduced on the ground where I can use my technique to force my larger muscle groups against smaller muscle groups (armbar, wristlock, choke, etc) and can disable if needed with 'illegal' techniques. So we know how judo and bjj fit into this. How does aikido fit into this? Well I use the drills to help develop concepts of distance and practice closing the distance with aiki like movements. Once that distance is closed, judo and bjj do the rest of the work for me in an efficient way. Of course I wish I could throw in more MMA sparing and boxing to help develop better head movement and striking defenses. This is a major weak area for me.

How do I accomplish these tactics and make sure I am prepared to use them? Is it showing up to a class 2 days a week? No its though alive drills, against as many different types of people and body types and I can find. These drills help develop proper technique and a good feel for movement in these very small ranges. I then follow this up with sparing in broader ranges such as judo randori, submission wrestling, etc. Finally I try (although I slack off on this too much) to add full MMA sparing.

And the track record has proven far better then any other art I've trained in. Prior to this method, I have trained in martial arts for years. I did TKD (black belt), krav maga, aikido. Yet I could not leverage any of my skills against a green belt judo student or a white belt bjj student when put to the test. Because I did not look realistically at what I was doing and I did not have aliveness in my training. Am I a master now who can take all challengers? HA! far from it. In fact I get beat down 6 days a week. Usually by bigger, stronger guys that I am trying to learn how to deal with. But one thing has changed, I am improving, faster then I ever improved. Anyone who walks in the door with no prior 'sport MA' training I am confident I can spar with and win. This is not because bjj is better, but because aliveness is better. I know my limits, I know myself, and I know how to read what my attacker knows. I know when I'm out classed, and I know when I'm the bigger dog.

I am just now today starting to achieve a level close to what I was so sure I had accomplished when I was not training with aliveness. I was positive that I could not be taken down, that I could kick a guy at will, that I had the anti grapple with eye gouges and leg pinches. I believed everything my instructors told me. Well, rather I questioned it in my heart, but I convinced myself to believe it. And a lot of what they told me was true. That wasn't the problem. The problem was that without aliveness I never developed the sensitivity and physical ability required to actually perform my techniques against someone hell bent on stopping me.

So you ask the question, how does bjj train you to deal with multiple attackers? My answer would be it all depends on how you train your bjj. If you start drilling standing up and escaping clinches, your bjj will help your multiple attacker scenario greatly. This is not to say bjj will teach you to deal with all ranges of a fight, far from it, but it will give you a great foundation, or at the very least help you defend yourself properly should you ever find yourself on the ground.

Finally, to Mike Balko.

I'm more then willing to play with weapons or spar under any rules within reason. I'll allow eye gouges, pinches, biting, safe weapons (no reason to use a boken when kendo people have developed perfectly good tools for us to use). In fact I have done this for time to time to prove a point. The simple fact is most bjj guys do not train to deal with this because they simply do not care about it. The techniques are there, I've seen Carlson Gracie Jr. show standing wrist locks and other traditional defenses. Your post shows how limited your understanding of bjj is. You think its all double leg takedowns and chokes. Our bjj club knows many good judo throws. Beyond that many proper techniques are designed to protect your eyes and throat from attacks. We just don't talk about it because we simply do not care. That's why the mount is so important, you can hit them, then can not create any leverage to hit you. Can they go for the groin? Sure but they take a much greater risk, namely staying conscious long enough to attack the groin while they get blows rained down smashing their head between the ground and a fist/elbow/forearm/palm. It seems to me a proper defense to protect your head then escape would be a much better idea. I like my skull in once piece.

This is not to say that sport aspect is not leaking in. I've watched people told to do things that would get you killed on the street, like see if you do this he can't hit you because striking to the back of the head is illegal. Again though, it comes down to being honest with yourself and your goals.

And besides, I really do not see a street fight going beyond that first Harai I throw. Especially if I revert to competition mode and land on his chest.

mikebalko
03-12-2007, 02:55 PM
Mike, BJJ is a grappling sports/art. It works best in a given scenario i.e., one-on-one, padded mat, no interference from lava, broken glass etc and no multiple opponents."

Lava, LOL, I love bullshido also, it is freakin hillarious

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=45685&page=2
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=45685&page=2

"Aikido work best when the opponent is so enraged and blind with fury, he lost all rationality that he/she comes charging at you without scant regards to his safety or anyone else. He/She forgot about distancing or balancing."

So does everything else becasue I guy who does that doesn't know his a** form his elbow.

I see both arts as specialization in their own zone. They both work... in their context.

Boon.

I agree. Bjj is great for taking down and tapping out bangers( boxers, kickboxers, etc) whereas aikido techniques are good for throwing guys who are trying to kill you with a weapon or trying to blind you and neuter you empty handed while doing their best to prevent you from doing it to them first.
I am really perplexed by this talk of begging for your life and AK 47 jutsu when attacked by a group. Obvioulsy if you can't defend yourself against one guy in a sparring situation(most aikidoka I have encountered) forget about realistic multiple attacker defence, but even an average guy can keep a group of unarmed attackers at bay with just a knife! It causes them to attack differently(the point of training wrist grabs) even if you just act like you might have one on you and they haven't even seen it yet.

Kevin Leavitt
03-12-2007, 03:30 PM
Mike,

Thanks for replying back with more info.

The situations you discuss are good ones. Bouncers develop strategies (tactics) for bouncing, police officers develop strategies (tactics). For both in a controlled situation, which 99% of the time they will remain in, they would not jump on their back and pull guard and go to the ground. Ground fighitng in this respect is simply a skill they may not need.

However, it does not mean that they cannot go to the ground. So for them to discount basic grappling skills would not be prudent IMO.

Does that mean they need to develop 5 guard sweeps,and 5 submissions? Not at all, they simply need to be able to control the guard, or simply reverse the mount to protect themselves for 15 to 20 seconds until their buddy can come along and remove the assailant.

So, yes, in affect on does not really need to develop a killer ground game to be martially effective.

In fact, I train soldiers for 5 days prior to going downrange, I have a down and dirty instruction period that we teach them very, very basic things. Our scenarios only have them rolling for 15 seconds to drive the point home. I also have a large banner on the wall that says. "the winner of a hand to hand fight is the guy whose buddy shows up with a gun first."

Don Magee is all over it. ALL over it. THIS is the proper way to train for this stuff. It is exactly how we train in my dojo.

It is not about aikido, nor bjj it not what those arts can do. It is what you can do and what you train for. It is about aliveness. Add that into your training, then you can begin to understand the ranges and dynamics as they apply.

BJJ and Aikido offer us a very good basis to train with within two ranges. add in aliveness, and then you can use these methodologies to develop your mind and the skills necessary to understand the applications of what we learn in these arts.

mikebalko
03-12-2007, 03:42 PM
Finally, to Mike Balko.

I'm more then willing to play with weapons or spar under any rules within reason. I'll allow eye gouges, pinches, biting, safe weapons (no reason to use a boken when kendo people have developed perfectly good tools for us to use). In fact I have done this for time to time to prove a point. The simple fact is most bjj guys do not train to deal with this because they simply do not care about it. The techniques are there, I've seen Carlson Gracie Jr. show standing wrist locks and other traditional defenses. Your post shows how limited your understanding of bjj is. You think its all double leg takedowns and chokes. Our bjj club knows many good judo throws. Beyond that many proper techniques are designed to protect your eyes and throat from attacks. We just don't talk about it because we simply do not care. That's why the mount is so important, you can hit them, then can not create any leverage to hit you. Can they go for the groin? Sure but they take a much greater risk, namely staying conscious long enough to attack the groin while they get blows rained down smashing their head between the ground and a fist/elbow/forearm/palm. It seems to me a proper defense to protect your head then escape would be a much better idea. I like my skull in once piece.

.
The words play, safe, and weapons don't fit together, this is why katate dori is practiced empty handed so much, traditional aikido is not competitive and so misunderstood.There is a big difference between someone not caring about something and being completely vulnerable to it because they think it is impossible for ANYONE to realistically defend against it.
So you were taught you can't hit someone from the guard?I just saw George St. Pierre, (UFC champion in his weight category) on a T.V show about MMA, training with David Loiseau at Tri star gym where he said the exact opposite. He then said he prefered being in the guard due to the increased submission oportunities. In a standing clinch, (which is needed to execute a judo throw in a no rules setting) and when you are sitting on someone ground and pound style the groin and eye strikes won't help you, because you are dead.. even if you are the one who ends up on top bashing away or you get a sub from the guard,you are dead if you are training to defend yourself against someone who might be armed or have back up.Ever notice how vulnerable mma fighters are to Big John Mcarthy when he decides the fight is over?

Kevin Leavitt
03-12-2007, 04:15 PM
Mike wrote:

even if you are the one who ends up on top bashing away or you get a sub from the guard,you are dead if you are training to defend yourself against someone who might be armed or have back up.Ever notice how vulnerable mma fighters are to Big John Mcarthy when he decides the fight is over

Hence why I have a big poster on my wall that says "the winner of a hand to hand fight is the guy whose buddy shows up first with a gun."

St Pierre, Loiseau? What do ya think we are going to believe what a couple of guys with last names like that say... eh? :)

c'est la vie!

Guard is not an optimal fighting position. Don and I both I think have said this. It simply is a position that is preferable to other positions if you are on the ground with someone on top. Watch lots of fights on youtube, see how many people naturally will end up in the guard.

MMA./UFC is a sport. In the early ones Royce and Co. dominated with the guard because no one knew how to use it, and exploit it. Today, it is not so. In an UFC situation, it is about equal these days, still preferable than being in the mount or in side control though. Ground and pound is a viable option in the ring.

I need to get the video up on you tube of my last competition in January in the European BJJ Championships, which I lost due to the fact that I am NOT a good BJJ player and went for the guard and got past to side control, (2 points for the guy that passed it). I would have been better off at NOT establishing the guard and letting him have the side control as it would have been no points, yet be my training, you never allow someone to have this position.

I also don't jump guard in practice, however my coach Jacare and I talked about this at the Europeans and he said it was a viable strategy in tournament if you have a good guard game.

Point is, don't confuse sport BJJ with the ability to adapt these things to reality. The fact is, I am a much better, well rounded fighter for understanding the Mount, Side Control, and the Guard.

In everyone of my combatives classes someone will bring up gouges, bites etc. I say, okay lets roll a few minutes without them, then lets roll with them, I will let you do whatever you want, however, I get to do them too. I have yet to have any takers once they realize the magnitude of what the abiity to dominate has on the effectiveness of these tools. Does not mean they are not effective, but the are a constant factor in every fight. Both fighters have the tools and it requires little skill to use them, however, the ones that can dominate the fight have the advantage of being able to use them effectively whereas the other poor guy is usually trying to just prevent damage to himself, not attack back.

Same with weapons. Look at the dog brothers if you want an Idea in video of how to properly train with weapons if you are serious about it. www.dogbrothers.com.

Bottomline, fighting skills with empty hand and blunt objects,and knifes require many, many skills and many, many different layers of methodology to train properly.

I as many have found that developing a foundation in the basics of body control and dominance, closing the distance, acheiving the clinch, and ground grappling to be a good base to expand upon with other skills such as weapons.

KIT
03-12-2007, 04:59 PM
The only thing I will add to this thread, from a background as a police officer, defensive tactics trainer, SWAT member, and combatives instructor, is that Don and Kevin are exactly right.

BJJ is a godsend for the modern police officer both in controlling grounded suspects and defending against assaults that go to clinch and ground. I have done so repeatedly against various suspects under various conditions, and trained and seen others do the same.

Trained properly with "real life" in mind, BJJ will make it harder for people to gain control of you on the ground, let alone even get to a position where they can hurt you, make it far easier for you to get up off the ground (like when "his buddies" start coming toward you), and easier for you to access weapons and prevent an attacker from doing so.

It takes very little to adapt many of the same skills used on the competition mat for weapons based situations.

Indeed, I've found that it often seems like that is what the art was originally intended for when you start practicing that way. Many might be surprised how much "classical" jujutsu or even "aiki" comes out when you start training weapon retention or knife defense with a BJJ skill base.

DonMagee
03-12-2007, 09:47 PM
For the record, I wasn't talking about being hit when your in the guard. I was talking about getting hit when your in the mount. I proper high mount defends you from ALL attacks from the guy on the bottom. The guy on the bottom can defend and escape, or die.

Budd
03-13-2007, 10:46 AM
Just to add my spare $0.02, every good submission grappling school that I've every been to teaches the guard, side control & mount as positions from which to transition, finish or escape (depending which position you're in and what openings you're given) the engagement, rather than as an optimal place to stay and hang out.

Matter of fact, last night at the BJJ school I like to visit, the drill was "Iron Man", where you get five two-minute rounds with a fresh guy each time. The first round you both start from the knees, each successive round, the guy that stays in gets put in a worse position (side mount, full mount, etc) and needs to start and work from there. This gets repeated so that everybody gets to be the Iron Man, as well as one of the guys sent against him.

In my mind, this specific drill accomplishes a couple of things from a combatives perspective: 1) You learn how key positional advantage is and how sometimes the best you can do is 'survive' a tough one with determination and heart. 2) As you get progressively tired and faced with fresh partners, you have to keep your head and "feel" what's going on around you (especially in a small space with a lot of other people training - does wonders for 'zanshin') in order to escape, finish or transition.

Now, the above examples are for the purposes of illustrating how BJJ, in this context, trains the practitioner to develop desireable skills within its paradigm. Does aikido have its own methods for training its desired traits? Undoubtedly. The success of which seems to be a big subject of debate and one I'm not really interested in participating in other than to say that I think honest assessment of one's training methodology is a necessary phase for any practitioner.

It isn't a one-and-done-thing either, but a constant evaluation of a) Am I honestly meeting my goals for training? b) Am I honestly improving in accordance with those goals at a pace that is acceptable? c) Am I also meeting my teacher's expectations? d) Are my and my teacher's expectations in harmony?

Sometimes the answers will change, but that's because our perspective on things tends not to be static. If it is, that to me is a clear indicator that I'm no longer learning.

jason jordan
03-13-2007, 11:19 AM
Greetings Everyone,
That is perhaps where some of this doubt or insecurity may arrise from, is that there are few Aikidoka who train for effective take down defense. (Maybe I'm wrong, please correct me if I am).

As a newbie, that is the one thing that I would suggest for this martial art, especially during Randori. Although I have seen dozens of impressive clips of Randori, I have yet to see even one attempt at a single or a double leg take down. IMHO your are doing yourself a huge injustice if you don't train for at least one or more opponents attempting to steal your center/movement by attacking your legs. In a real Budo situation it will happen.

Thank you for letting me join your wonderful forum.

Kevin

Hey Kevin, I think most people train for this.....They just don't know it.

:eek:I have recently done some sparring with some Judo and Bjj guys.:grr: And one technique that works very very well is "Tai Sabaki" if you have good Tenkan and good Sabaki, when they go for the take down help them down by getting out of the way. Every time they went for my waist or legs, I quickly did a "Soto Tenkan" movement with a little help of "Atemi" waza to the back of the neck nothing big just a little nudge, the mat hit them every time.

My biggest problem with most Aikidoka is that we don't really think about the "Bunkai" which means the application. In my Shotokan days when we did kata, "Bunkai" was stressed. If we think about what we are practicing, we will see that there is a solution for every attack in Aikido....just most people don't see them because they don't explore enough.

My 1/2 cents

Oh and welcome to the forum:D

Kevin Leavitt
03-13-2007, 02:35 PM
Jason,

I get where you are coming from bunkai is definitely there, However. (you knew the however was coming):)

This is where I have a little issue when you cross the threshold from principle training with proper posture alignment and center, to reality or sport.

This side of me says that bunkai is useless. Here is what I mean.

Pragmatically either you are practicing it and know you are practicing it or you are not.

This is really the core concerning aliveness. I am not saying that practicing randori, tai sabaki, or other things as we practice them in aikido is wrong. Frankly I am an advocate for practicing in this manner as it helps ensure and reinforce correct things. Whereas a weakness of training in an aliveness manner all the time can be difficult to learn or unlearn bad things.

However, in my experiences you will never learn how to adequately be proficient against non-compliance unless you practice it in this manner.

We can look to the bunkai (hidden techniques) all we want, but why waste time hiding techniques, other than to isolate out particular aspects that you want to reinforce or unlearn?

At some point, you must practice against real takedown attempts, as you did with your judo and BJJ buddies.

As you know, you probably found you did better than you thought you'd do with your aikido training just doing the things you learned in aikido.

However, if we want to become BETTER at these things or expand our abilities and versatility then why not practice against these things, and THEN carry it to the next level of transition. This is aliveness.

Anyway, I do agree with the bunkai being there in all aikido technique if practiced principally correct. I have had fun learning exactly what you say in the last couple of years through aliveness. Finding what can be interpreted principally, and learning how to free up that "bunkai" in my training!

For instance, I have found the clinch to be similar to irimi and ikkyu in principle. Bunkai is there....it is just up to you to apply the concept of aliveness to unlock it!

I think this has been what many of us that have cross trained and synthesized between BJJ and aikido.

Thanks for sharing that with me..made me think!

jason jordan
03-13-2007, 06:50 PM
Jason,

I get where you are coming from bunkai is definitely there, However. (you knew the however was coming):)

At some point, you must practice against real takedown attempts, as you did with your judo and BJJ buddies.

As you know, you probably found you did better than you thought you'd do with your aikido training just doing the things you learned in aikido.

I think this has been what many of us that have cross trained and synthesized between BJJ and aikido.

Thanks for sharing that with me..made me think!

I think we are saying the same thing....???:rolleyes:

I believe that it is very good for us to practice "Cross train". I do it because I want to know where Bjj is coming from. I have no desire to rank in it, but I want to be able to understand it.

But my point was "And I think you got it" is that sometimes a lot of aikidoka become "Aiki Robots" able to execute a technique but not really understanding the technique.

As students we should IMO look beyond how to do a technique in class and question every technique.... And then at some point in time put it into action.

This is one of the few things that I admire about the Gracie's, they were willing to test their theories. "I don't agree with how they did it" But that's my $.01

And yes by the way "I did do a lot better than I thought" And even learned something about myself, which enables me to focus on my weakness in training. Case in point. When I was completely relaxed and let my technique work....they worked. When I tried to force technique I could not pull them off...at all.:grr:

As always thanks for your time

Kevin Leavitt
03-14-2007, 01:23 AM
About the Aikirobot thing. I think it depends on your goals with aikido. Some I think are concerned with learning to do aikido well, that is within the parameters of the art to better understand themselves and their relation to the world through the use of proper kineseology and proper body movement, processes etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Personally, I have learned quite a bit from these folks as they tend to study it a little deeper and a little more technical than I do.

However, I have a different focus which is to learn the techniques, postures, etc, and then figure out how to use them in non-resistance and more spontaneous way. It is important to me to look past the basic movements and understand application etc. The only way, IMO to do this is to train with aliveness.

Yes the Gracies did do what you are talking about. I think the reason we have BJJ and this aliveness paradigm is due to their methods of training and promotion. Brazillian culture fostered the enviornment and the methods they chose to promote it. Bottomline, it worked. Most of them have matured, grown up, and frankly have enough money, prestige, respect now I suppose that they don't need to go there any more.

On Crosstraining. I have recently grown to not like that word as it applies to my training. It is a philosophical thought I guess, semantics really. My thoughts are, I have a goal and criteria that I try to keep clear in my mind. All my training focuses on developing that goal. So, I train in aikido and I train in BJJ or whatever..to help me reach that goal. I view it more as integrative training more so than crosstraining, but again...semantics. I don't separate aikido practice from BJJ so much anymore. Just two different training conditions that apply the exact same principles, so I don't see it as cross training so much anymore.

Thanks again!

Nafis Zahir
03-14-2007, 01:45 AM
1) Take downs are good for one-on-one contest, but not for multiple attackers.

2) suri-waza is great practice for these types of things. It helps you to keep your center grounded.

3) I just saw Hoyce Gracie defeated in the UFC! Great match!

DonMagee
03-14-2007, 06:41 AM
I disagree with point 1). Take downs are very good for multiple attackers. So good in fact that it is a basic element of aiki randori. The bad idea is going down with the attacker. Not every bjj fighter is a double leg takedown guy. There are people like me who prefer footsweeps, hip throws, and body wheels. A takedown is a takedown, throw, shoot, or otherwise.

Kevin Leavitt
03-14-2007, 11:35 AM
Agree with Don, as usual.

Iriminage is a form of takedown. to do a takedown you have to pretty much clinch, or enter behind. So you need to be versatile in many ways to off balance and put him on the ground.

Obviously in reality, there are strikes and all that too.

It is correct, that you certainly would not "shoot for a double" or go for an ankle if you were standing. Although if you were on the ground, I could see where you might want to do this depending on the situation.

Bottomline, you should be well rounded. Why limit yourself to NOT training takedowns of many flavors. Better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

Of course there are high probability techniques that you should practice more.

Budd
03-14-2007, 12:13 PM
My experiences in aikido and sport grappling have lead me to believe that it ain't about techniques at all, it's more about the principles of movement that you train and how well you can apply them, regardless of what the other person "brings". Techniques are just a way of expressing principles.

'Course, it helps if part of training the principles involves other people "bringing" something valid that you have to deal with (be it strikes/grabs/locks/etc. from arms-length/clinch/ground/etc.). But then I think that folks, regardless of art/style, that want to be well-rounded, are going to find ways to address it.

philippe willaume
03-14-2007, 01:28 PM
Hello
And I think that the point, it is not that BJJ, any ground fighting or aikido is crap or even complementary. I think it is more that they may not be worth ones while given the particular society/environment it need to be considered into.
I can not find the post or the poster but after reading his post, an in his context, It does make sense in some modern police forces to use the guard position.
On the same token, we need to note that the medieval and 16-17th century hand-to-hand ground wrestling that both fighter going to the is almost totally absent. (Other than what seems to be “untutored” wrestling, young man play and judical dual in full plate.)

There are plays to defend against shooting high and low. It is limited to the entry/initial grab phase. (it is the same for all the grabbing methods but the low and high shot are mentioned specifically). and there are pin where the oppoenet is on the ground

This tend to indicated two things, that it was something that you could face hence it was done by some people, and that going any further on the ground may not have been an option considered viable at the time. It does not mean that ground fighting is pants; it was just not relevant given the circumstances.

On the same token, A German 15th century open hand masters seems to believe that “spiting and biting” was at least a nice get out of jail free card.
The eyes, the lower maxilla/mouth ligaments, the temples, the neck the throat and along the collarbone, the solar plexus, the navel, the goolies and the knee are designated as targets for pressure and strikes. (or under the arms pit).
As one poster said it does not help so much when on the ground but it sure does help you to go there in the first place. So in this context, it is valid.

If we have a look at that picture http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/187.jpg (the text is from the 15th ,The illustration from early 16th)
I would transcribe the text like so
Ein armbruch
Greifft dir einer vorn bey dem goller, So grief im mitt deims linken vornen in das glench und reiss im umb unt setz im demen recht arm auf sein linken arm aussen auf sin elbogen glench un stoss indes zur erden (so.y.im.d an) und drit im aus dem stos auf dein recht und nimt des stichts mitt der rechten.?. domit du im im .e y stosst

Roughly translated that means,
An arm breaker
Should one grap you by the collar, at that time grab him with your left in front in the arcticulation and drive (that) him around and set your right arm onto is left arm onto the articulation of the elbow. And at the same time “enter and press (with that last bit)”towards the earth and press him with the irimi onto your right and grab the thrust with the right, with that you ??something?? “enter and press” at him)

Stopping the wrist one way, pushing the elbow the other that does have a nikkio flavour, I can see why it make sense at the time bollocks dagger are usually bigger than modern knife and you wore several layer or tightly woven fabric. So the risk of being cut is relatively low, now it is a little iffier to try that in a T-shirt with a modern knife.

To go back to our the topic, in the medieval context they have chosen for what ever reason, that going to the ground was a bad idea, so they have developed application of principles that will prevent it to happen. The very same move is used against unarmed opponents.
I can see the same concept applying to BJJ alone and aikido alone, so you do not necessarily need to mix the two, nor it is evil to do so. I think there is valid reason to go either way.
That being said, if you chose a stand alone way, seeing those application once and while could only help.

phil

Kevin Leavitt
03-14-2007, 03:19 PM
I think going to the ground is always a bad idea, even in the 21st Century.

Erik Calderon
03-14-2007, 04:17 PM
It is not about aikido, nor bjj it not what those arts can do. It is what you can do and what you train for. It is about aliveness. Add that into your training, then you can begin to understand the ranges and dynamics as they apply.

BJJ and Aikido offer us a very good basis to train with within two ranges. add in aliveness, and then you can use these methodologies to develop your mind and the skills necessary to understand the applications of what we learn in these arts.

I always thought, disregarding the art, "may the best man win."

www.shinkikan.com

Kevin Leavitt
03-14-2007, 05:14 PM
sure, just make sure you are the best man! if not, remember that all is fair in love and war...and cheat. You can always appologize later! :)

DonMagee
03-14-2007, 08:21 PM
I think going to the ground is always a bad idea, even in the 21st Century.

I agree, its even a more bad idea when your being taken to the ground via harai.

darin
03-14-2007, 09:46 PM
The problem with the bjj vs multiple opponent argument is that if your going up against more than one opponent its very likely you will end up on the ground no matter what style your doing. Your only chance is to escape to a safe position where you can deal with each attacker one at a time.

I remember reading in Blitz magazine an article by John Wills (Machado Jujitsu) where he demonstrates how BJJ can be used against multiple opponents. He was suggesting if you are taken down you go to the guard and use your opponent as a shield as you choke him out. Once he is out you try to trip or roll into another attacker and then do the same. Interesting strategy...

Another thing, a good takedown on a hard surface can do quite a bit of damage to your opponent.

Aristeia
03-15-2007, 12:39 AM
I remember reading in Blitz magazine an article by John Wills (Machado Jujitsu) where he demonstrates how BJJ can be used against multiple opponents. He was suggesting if you are taken down you go to the guard and use your opponent as a shield as you choke him out. Once he is out you try to trip or roll into another attacker and then do the same. Interesting strategy...

Another thing, a good takedown on a hard surface can do quite a bit of damage to your opponent.John ismy BJJ coach (Will not Wills BTW). He tells a good story about a bar melee where he and one other guy went to the ground choked guys out and stayed underneath. They walked out unscathed. The other guys who stood and banged - while they won, came away with all sorts of cuts and bruises and injuries.

Chris Birke
03-15-2007, 01:07 AM
So you were taught you can't hit someone from the guard?I just saw George St. Pierre, (UFC champion in his weight category) on a T.V show about MMA, training with David Loiseau at Tri star gym where he said the exact opposite. He then said he prefered being in the guard due to the increased submission oportunities.

You don't sound like you misread Don, or do not understand what guard and mount are.

Guard: One person is in a defensive position on their back or side with their legs between them and their opponent.

The person on their guard can submit or deploy limited striking from the bottom.

The person IN the guard of their opponent can strike fairly well, or go for leg submissions. (GSP was talking about striking from within the opponents guard...)

Don was referring to mount, however.

Mount: Having passed the guard (legs) so that you now control your opponents hips by sitting, or kneeling on them. A person who's hips are controlled cannot marshal the power or reach to strike someone above them effectively. In a one on one situation, a sitting mount provides optimal control - you see this in MMA. In a scenario where multiple attackers are possible a knee across the belly mount is employed (you see this a lot on "Cops") - it provides greater mobility and visibility. You do not see it in mma because control is proffered in 1 on 1.

It is also, however, heavily used as a transition move in bjj, or simply because it's fun to squish white belts with...

GSP does not advocate striking from underneath the mount. He advocates squirming.

Reductio ad absurdum:
Your self defense system is laughable. I have discovered that having an armed posse trumps any sort of personal self defense technique. It has been demonstrated countless times in history. At my school we train how to be nice to others, win friends, and influence people such that you might muster a posse at all times. We also study the market, such that one might afford arms for their posse. It's the only best way you can really be safe.

The US army has taken this to heart, forming massive possies(sp?) for war making purposes.

To not train in the methods of posse forming simply because you don't care/think it's impossible/unimportant to make friends who will stand around you all the time is really foolish and short sighted. You're probably already dead!

ChiefDaddy
03-15-2007, 10:38 PM
The bottom line is no martial art is perfect. Each has it's positives and negatives. As far as Aikido vs. Brazilian Jujitsu; there are too many variables to consider to be able to come to a more definitive conclusion. Skill level, ability to adapt, creativity, and willingness are only just a few of the factors which play into this type of competition.
Furthermore aikido is a non-competitive art, there is no attack in true aikido. So if the opponent initiates an attack then he or she has given up some their center and that can be all that is needed to neutralize the situation.

Kevin Leavitt
03-16-2007, 01:57 AM
In reality, it is not necessary to give up center with an attack. This is why we have many issues with non-compliant attacks.

A good attacker can close distance/range, deny you the ability to use that, and take your center and balance...all while attacking.

A good attacker moves his center and closes to the appropriate distance before actually committing the attack.

IMM, the attack is not the punch, strike, or kick, knife or stick...it begins with moving properly, closing the distance, taking center, then launching whatever he feels is necessary to do next.

It is up to uke to figure out how to defeat that attack by placing himself in a postion that first protects, and next allows him to move in to take center off nage.

Pete Rihaczek
03-16-2007, 01:07 PM
I think the "vs" thing is a bit juvenile of a topic, which is probably one reason it's relegated to this section. But since I have some knowledge that might be of interest I'll toss out one(1) post on it.

First and foremost, let's distinguish between "fighting" and self-defense. "Fighting" is what happens when someone gets in your face and your ego refuses to let you ignore it. It's illegal, immoral, and definitely against the spirit of Aikido. And it's one aspect where I think Aikido training may have a benefit over other types of training, because more aggressive, confrontational training may make it harder to suppress the ego. Or perhaps people with certain insecurities are more drawn to aggressive training, but in any case it seems to make it less likely for people to brush off aggression.

That said, it is not and never has been the strategy of BJJ to go to the ground in a multiple opponent scenario. It may seem that way, because people want to learn the ground stuff and that's where the focus is. But BJJ *is* jiu-jitsu, there is a fairly extensive standup syllabus, and the techniques are very solid. I don't know how it is now, but back in the day at the Gracie Academy, you had to finish a standup curriculum before you could focus on the groundwork. I remember Rorion Gracie saying something to the effect that he had an album of Helio that catalogued some 1000+ techniques, along with narratives and photos. If memory serves those were the standup techniques, or in any case there were hundreds of standing techniques, as with any jiu-jitsu ryu. I remember one instance of Royce getting ticked off because he was teaching a class, was demonstrating something from a headlock with the victim pushed up against a wall, and the student had forgotten the counter. He went around testing everybody on standup work, and ended up forcing a review of standup material so people wouldn't forget it. It's an oft-neglected area because students come to BJJ specifically to learn ground fighting in most cases, but the standup syllabus has some of the better counters for certain holds that I've seen.

Now the machismo culture of Brazil that gave birth to BJJ ensured that one-on-one challenge matches were not hard to find, but Brazil is sufficiently violent that anything could happen, therefore reliance on 1-on-1 fighting strategy is a non-starter. Various anecdotes in random order:

- On the general level of violence, I recall Rickson saying that to go to Brazil as a tourist is just foolish. Unless you know people who live there and will stay with them during your visit, you will simply be a likely victim. Despite his skills, if he went out at night he would carry a .45 and two extra clips. That's practical self-defense.

- Craig Kukuk, who became the first American black belt from the academy, shared a story that happened during his extended stay in Brazil. A number of students went there for intensive training, and came back much better for it. I forget how many months he was there, but he was only alone *one* time for a few minutes, and sure enough he was immediately attacked by three men. He was walking to his car from a building, or some other short walk, and was attacked. Did he go to the ground? Of course not. He threw one attacker with the standard hip throw taught on the first day of training, retained the arm, and broke it. The other two ran away after witnessing that.

- Rickson is an avid surfer, and one day he and bunch of surfing buddies were away from their normal stomping grounds in another city, and went to a bar. Some guy got into it with him, and he headbutted him and knocked him out. Note, again, he did not go to the ground. Suddenly, the entire bar stood up, since a local had just gotten beat by a non-local. Everybody burst for the door, most of Rickson's "friends" ran for it, and Rickson and one real friend who stayed with him wound up outside encircled by 20-30 people. I don't care what art you study, at that point it's all the same thing. You get buffetted around the circle here and there, engaging in mini-encounters, trying to put people in each other's way, and hope to eventually escape, which they did. No demonstration of taking out any one person is going to instill fear in a crowd that large, and if you do something too aggressive, you will simply increase their determination to stomp you into your grave. Awareness, conditioning, and the technique to keep your base and stay *on* your feet and counter attempts to grapple you, which you also learn in grappling, is what counts.

In order to find yourself in a multiple-opponent self-defense scenario, you pretty much have to do something foolish to get there. Going to bars and getting into fights would be pretty high on the list of foolish things to do. There are plenty of good martial artists who have been dumb enough in their young lives to do such things, but also many who just got a knife or shotgun blast in the back for their trouble. Summary points:

1) BJJ does not advocate going to the ground unless conditions warrant it, and in the case of multiple opponents it's hard to imagine how it would be warranted. But, it could happen against your will. Unlike most arts, BJJ doesn't say "I'll never wind up on the ground", and so has an extensive curriculum to deal with that situation, including how to get up and get away. What you can do in cage fights you often can't do in real fights, but the technique addresses how to realistically defend yourself in scenarios most arts just assume you won't find yourself in, like on the floor underneath someone 50 - 100 lbs heavier than you trying to choke and punch you out. Until the popularity of BJJ, there was much denial about how often such scenarios happen in real fights. Women's self-defense in particular needs to address that scenario or else it's delusional. In other words, it's one thing to say you don't want to go there voluntarily, which is undoubtedly often wise - and another to assume you have to tools to handle it if you find yourself there against your will. It's hard to remember with MMA all the rage these days, but BJJ was designed to be a *self-defense* art, not a beat-people-up art, so that a small person can survive attack *no matter how bad a position they find themselves in*. Like any other art, its ideal purpose is to be used in the same mindset as Aikido, to defend oneself only when necessary.

2) The non-confrontational mindset espoused by Aikido is hugely important in practical terms of not getting into stupid situations. If it makes you walk away from an optional fight, consider that a win, whether or not you had the technique to prevail.

3) The internal skills would make it much harder for anyone to grapple you, which is significantly more useful than any twisty technique. The goal is to be able to take control of the other person's balance as soon as they touch you (well, before if possible, but let's leave that to white-bearded old wizards) not to take their balance because you're twisting something on them. It'll still work as would any good external jiu-jitsu technique, but as has been belabored here recently, a high level of Ki abilities is probably the real Grail, not being fast at grab-and-twist.

Budd
03-16-2007, 01:43 PM
Great post, as usual, Pete.

Pete Rihaczek
03-16-2007, 02:40 PM
Great post, as usual, Pete.

Danke. ;)

Like I said I'm not up for a giant discussion on it, but it's worth noting that Helio Gracie's own book on Jiu-Jitsu is reportedly 50-70% standup self-defense (haven't read it myself). He is also reported to have said of cage fighting, "that's not my jiu-jitsu".

Sounds kinda familiar - I guess that's the price anybody pays for founding a style. ;)

DonMagee
03-16-2007, 03:13 PM
As I think I've pointed out before, Carlson Gracie Jr. did a seminar at my club a few months back. He did half the seminar on stand up locks and throws. Including nikkyo and ikkyo.

KIT
03-16-2007, 10:29 PM
Oh yeah?

But could he make that stuff work in the UFC?? Huh?

Sorry, couldn't resist...

Budd
03-17-2007, 02:02 PM
If a seminar is held and there is no video evidence . . . does it actually happen? :)

A couple things that I've been thinking about regarding bjj/aiki/internal training . . .

1) The way a bjj player can 'float' someone while they are on their back is definitely something worth feeling and to me . . . very 'aiki', in that the goal is to fix your position, while in their guard, etc., with their structure and then using their contact points with the ground, get under your balance while letting gravity do the work.

2) Submission setups work best the same way, I use my structure/posture with the energy you're giving me to fix your position, then moving along my contact/base points derived from you AND the ground gets me in the position to apply a lock or choke. Do the same thing from the knees (something I need to practice more) and it's suwari-waza. Do the same thing while standing at arms length and it looks like aikido (except maybe not as pretty as someone that's leaping into the air for you).

I think the way this ties in with some of the things others have been talking about in the 'Internal' specific threads that have to do with training/wiring your body to maintain and move with its own alignment/structure and follow certain rules for receiving/generating power from the other guy and themselves. Though I admit up front I know "nothing" for sure and am speculating based on what others have said.

I've definitely appreciated those chiming in that have felt this stuff from some of the more vocal exponents (as well as those I've talked to personally). I'm much more likely to give them my attention than the person that trains in semi-isolation, yet insists "We do that too and always have done", but when pressed, can't contribute anything more substantial than, "It's sorta kinda this way but not really".

I'm looking forward to getting my hands on with some of the folks doing this stuff, but in the meantime, will continue training in accordance with trying to exceed my own teacher's expectations.

Kevin Leavitt
03-17-2007, 02:19 PM
I agree Budd. Posture, head, and spine alignment are so, so important in BJJ, as in aikido.

Yes, I love the floating feeling in the open guard that you are talking about. In fact I love the guard because of the contact and feedback you get in training it. It took me a while to understand why in BJJ you work the guard so much, I think it is because it allows you to work with all your tools and everything must be aligned so well in order to get things right.

KIT
03-17-2007, 02:58 PM
Interesting comments from Budd and Kevin.

Along the same lines is the harmonizing with the opponent when you are being "floated," in the top position.

Sometimes your contact with the ground is through HIS contact with the ground, and your contact with him. You start to move around to pass the guard, he floats you and the sweep begins, but you float your own hips around your contact point with him (shin, arm, elbow, what have you) bringing them around and basing (i.e. re-establishing contact with the ground ) so that his sweep actually floats you into a superior position as you take advantage of the points of contact.

From the bottom, its that feeling you get when every sweep you do puts him in a better position or opens another sub for him. Yikes!

I love it when that happens for me. Hate it when others do it to me!!

Budd
03-17-2007, 03:22 PM
Agreed, Kevin. I think one reason it (the guard) is so good for isolating the ground connection with your points of contact is that it gives you another context for weighting yourself to the ground and creating/releasing tension within yourself that it effects the other person.

Nice description, Kit, and I think this goes along with what you're saying, in that if you can do the above things AND harmonize (in the trained intercept/sensitivity to the other person, rather than the philosophical context), then that creates the "inevitability" factor that the really good practitioners (standing, clinch or ground) display regardless of the position they start from. I know I'm not there myself, but I love/hate that feeling when I get it from someone else (also known as the "Oh, S41t, not again!" montage)!

mikebalko
04-17-2007, 06:26 PM
[QUOTE=Chris Birke;172062]You don't sound like you misread Don, or do not understand what guard and mount are.

Guard: One person is in a defensive position on their back or side with their legs between them and their opponent.

The person on their guard can submit or deploy limited striking from the bottom.

The person IN the guard of their opponent can strike fairly well, or go for leg submissions. (GSP was talking about striking from within the opponents guard...)

Don was referring to mount, however.

Mount: Having passed the guard (legs) so that you now control your opponents hips by sitting, or kneeling on them. A person who's hips are controlled cannot marshal the power or reach to strike someone above them effectively. In a one on one situation, a sitting mount provides optimal control - you see this in MMA. In a scenario where multiple attackers are possible a knee across the belly mount is employed (you see this a lot on "Cops") - it provides greater mobility and visibility. You do not see it in mma because control is proffered in 1 on 1.

It is also, however, heavily used as a transition move in bjj, or simply because it's fun to squish white belts with...

GSP does not advocate striking from underneath the mount. He advocates squirming.["/QUOTE]

Fun to squish white belts eh, I could stop right there, that tells me everything I need to know about you. GSP was on the bottom, on his back, with Dave between his legs on top of him. I guess I just hallucinated what I heard him say from that position in that documentary if I have an expert such as yourself contradicting it:rolleyes:

"Reductio ad absurdum:
Your self defense system is laughable. I have discovered that having an armed posse trumps any sort of personal self defense technique. It has been demonstrated countless times in history. At my school we train how to be nice to others, win friends, and influence people such that you might muster a posse at all times. We also study the market, such that one might afford arms for their posse. It's the only best way you can really be safe.

The US army has taken this to heart, forming massive possies(sp?) for war making purposes.

To not train in the methods of posse forming simply because you don't care/think it's impossible/unimportant to make friends who will stand around you all the time is really foolish and short sighted. You're probably already dead!"

If you can't defend yourself against more than one person you just plain suck. I was able to do that before having trained in any martial art. LOL, you learn how to make friends and play the stock market! Better places than a dojo to learn that! A posse? So you either think you are a cowboy from the 1800's or you are really into "urban culture", either way something is not right with you.
Oh yes the U.S. army were so effective in the middle east after freedom fighters did not put up any resistance due to a technological disadvantage, but yet young american soldiers are getting sent home in bags every day of the week, just like in nam. What a victory! That is why they are about to pull out without having stabilized the area.
If you are depending on others risking their lives for you, you don't know human nature. If you are lucky you can count those willing to do this for you on one hand. Why bother learning how to defend yourself unless at all? That is what the cops are for. Oh right, they always show up once it is too late or they are the ones you have to defend yourself against, even though you have done nothing illegal, due to their widespread incompetence and unwarranted aggressiveness. As far as being impresssed by police and soldier's martial skills, it is good thing for them that they usually outnumber their enemies who are usually weaker from malnourishment, drugs, pshychiatric disorder, unarmed or more poorly armed, offensively unskilled, untrained and ignorant of how to defend themselves.

Where was this boy's posse?

http://www.macleans.ca/canada/national/article.jsp?content=20070313_174902_3332

Ahhh, the problem with internet forums v.s. real life is you have to point out how absurd someone is in writing as opposed to the quicker and more efficient manner of physically demonstrating it.:dead:

Budd
04-18-2007, 09:35 AM
If you honestly don't care whether or not you can effectively deal with a skilled clinch/ground grappler, then no worries, how tough do you want to be when you grow up? You'll get out of your aikido what you put into it (whether it's meditation, moving Zen, hard training, lots of solo work, intelligent randori, hard sparring, some combination), assuming that you're honest about the results of your training and reasons for training (which can be a hard thing).

If you honestly care how your aikido fares in a sport grappling context, go visit a wrestling/judo/sambo/bjj club and find out (it's fun - I've personally found the bjj guys here to be the most laid back about such things). If you don't care, then don't bother, but if you've got no experience with such things, you might come across as being less than credible if you talk about what "grapplers do" or how "grappling works" (which sort of also can be applied to folks pointing out why body skills in the ki/jin context aren't of value -- not pointing out anyone in particular in any case OR implying any abilities in this, though I do want to experience/learn more).

Either way, my experience has been that, when appropriate, it's good to get out and meet people and have informed opinions based on person-to-person interactions, which can then be shared (appropriately) rather than theoretical discussions based on what you think or suppose. I again thank folks that participate who have experienced differrent stuff (and share their experiences), gone out of their way to meet/train with people that have posted strong views (and again, then share their experiences -- I'm sorry to have missed at least one opportunity that was semi-locally available, unfortunately, one can only be in so many places at one time).

It's just a lot more credible than folks that write (sometimes needing a lot of words to basically say) "Yeah, we do that, too" or "I don't need to do that" when most people aren't really asking them or telling them otherwise (even if that's how it comes across according to the "protest too much" rule-of-thumb).

Personally, I've had nothing but good experiences with the people I've met that also post here.

kironin
04-18-2007, 01:00 PM
I was interested in reading the article by Bruce Bookman but there doesn't seem to be anyway to read without buying the issue despite the fact that the website claims the first issue can be downloaded for free. I keep ending up being sent to PayPal.

What have I missed or was that post just a spam advertising the magazine ?

mike.quinn@fsmail.net
04-25-2007, 11:59 AM
OK, it's done to death, but if anything, then BJJ in the UFC made us all sit up and take notice- or ignore in the fantasy world if your protecting your ego or your income if you're teaching. kung fu had this in the 70s, now it's BJJ or M.T. . What's next?. The problem with aikido is the way it is taught is not real for the street, but the art in it's original form would. Many techniques have been removed, complience is order of the day, which does not make for testing your technique easy. The atemi , P/Ps, ground work etc were removed. I switched to Karate and found the outright face to face stuff difficult. in Aikido we react, which is dangerous in a self defence scenario. For you!. However, once you become aware of your limitations, then that is the first step, and believe it or not you are then on the road to being a proper martial artist. Aikido is a lovely art , and to be honest I wouldn,t want to change it. I don't practice very often, but I know it'ts there, and as I get older/slower etc, maybe Aikido would deliver what other arts could not. I am a martial artist for life, and see aikido as the long term option.
:ai:

DaveS
04-25-2007, 08:37 PM
The problem with aikido is the way it is taught is not real for the street,
This is only a problem if your goal is to defend yourself on the street with what you learn. The way I learn aikido (shodokan) is not, as I understand it, directly preparing me for a fight - either in the MMA ring or in the street - and that's not a problem for me as the likelihood of me being in either of those situations is honestly quite low. In particular, it's not preparing me for a fight with a trained groundfighter, as the chances of that happening are pretty much negligible.

So the question becomes, do you know what you want from your training? Are you getting it? Are you being realistic and telling the truth about those two questions?
Can we write this above the door, or translate it into Japanese and hang it on the wall or something?