Kaeshiwaza-help

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[Inte Pär]

I've been looking so hard for free instructions/demonstrations on kaeshiwaza, but no luck... I have seen some recommendations for books and videos, but a) I don't have time to get them and b) I can't even afford such things.
I'm holding a training-session as a part of preparing for my 4th kyu, so it'll be my first instructions ever. The demand on my skills won't be that high so I thought of having a theme on kaeshiwaza where I can go through some slightly more unusual things but still limit myself to the most basic techniques.

Could someone pretty, pretty please try and describe some kaeshiwaza in words? The more detail the better, since I'm not that advanced. I will of course try them out in practice, as well as asking my sempai for help, but I'd like some theoretical ideas beforehand.
I know how to go from ikkyo to ikkyo and from ai hanmi nikyo urawaza to nikyo. I also have some fuzzy ideas about how to go from shihonage to shihonage (one application at the beginning of the technique and one application at the end of the technique) and from kotegaeshi to kotegaeshi, but I wouldn't be able to do it - I need more understanding of what's going on.

Other than that... how about sankyo? Sankyo to sankyo, sankyo to ikkyo, ikkyo to nikyo, iriminage, etc...

Big thanks in advance!


(and this is not meant as a thread for discussing the good/bad parts about teaching kaeshiwaza - I believe in it, and that's that. Please, keep this thread strictly technical)

[Mark Uttech]

Inte, bear in mind that suddenly you are in way over your head. Kaeshiwaza is something for Yudansha to study.

In gassho

Mark

[raul rodrigo]

I dont understand. Do you want to do kaeshiwaza during your 4th kyu exam? Or do you want to teach some kaeshi waza during this training session that is preparatory to your exam?

Either way, though, why would you want or need to do that?

[aikidoc]

I agree. At 4th kyu you should be focusing on the basics. Kaeshiwaza results from good ukemi and good basics with the ability to identify openings or pick off the energy of tori. This is a yudansha practice and in some organizations it is not even practiced until sandan.

Personally, I integrate it with my basics periodically. I even did a seminar on it with mixed ranks and they had fun with it. It is still an advanced technique.

[eyrie]

If you have to ask, then perhaps you're not ready for it. Try something else instead. Perhaps, take one of the basic techniques for your level and explain what you understand of it. This would be, by far, the better approach, as it very quickly cements your understanding, or lack of it either way.

In fact, this is what I frequently do with my kids... I'll show them 2-3 related techniques in a session, then they get to come up and demonstrate and explain the tech to the rest of the class. It's great feedback for me, since I then know which ones were paying attention, which ones weren't, which ones got it, which ones didn't and which ones need a bit more help.

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you have to ask how to do kaeshi waza, IMO, you are not ready to do it. Whilst it *may* be possible to mechanically go thru the motions of a set response/counter-response, it is IMO, the worst way to teach/learn it.

What I do is start with learning relaxed, body connection and conditioning first. Once the student can move in a relaxed, connected manner, these things will come very naturally to them.

I had one student, suddenly pull out a tech I hadn't showed before, from nowhere, or quite naturally flow into a reversal from a (purposely) botched technique. It happens - but only IF you are relaxed and connected. And he wasn't even a 5th kyu... he was basically a "nobody" in terms of rank.

Since the demand on your skill isn't going to be that high... I would suggest not getting in over your head at this point, with kaeshiwaza. Pick something "simple" like ikkyo, maybe. If you can demonstrate the simple principle of ikkyo, you'll understand how kaeshi happens if ikkyo is not applied correctly.

Good luck.

PS: Sorry, I realized you didn't want this to be a good/bad dissection of teaching kaeshiwaza, but IMO, you are simply not ready to do this.

[Inte Pär]

Oh, shoot... party-poopers =)

Yes, I understand what you're saying, although... does that mean that I am "ready" to teach those kaeshiwaza that I have already figured out by myself, in which I see where the fault in the original technique is and how I can use that to counter it? You're basically saying that you should not go after kaeshiwaza until you naturally see the loop-holes and instinctively understand some different ways you can take advantage of them?
I'm open to the critique that I'm over my head with this, I've had that thought cross my mind once or twice. I'm definitely not going to try and teach something that I don't have a good enough grasp on (whether or not I have such a grasp on my previous 6th and 5th kyu techniques, as well, is all relative...)

However, the reason I felt like playing with this (and I say "play" because I'm basically focusing on the basic techniques and then just add the kaeshiwaza as a different perspective; just something to be aware of, not something to study in-depth here and now) is because I see it as training the basic technique from a different angle - sort of like taking the backdoor. By doing some specific kaeshiwaza that build on a specific fault in the basic technique, you perhaps get a more "concrete" understanding of what is done wrong and how you should correct it - and why it is so important to think about that specific detail while doing it.
Regarding my part in this, as said, I'm still going to do the basic techniques as they are - the kaeshiwaza is just the cherry on my cream cake.

I'm awaiting thumbs up or down from the other instructors, but I've only had positive feedback from the higher ranked sempai, so far, so it didn't seem like that big of a deal. We've already been taught at least one kaeshiwaza (that was when I was a beginner) so I didn't see it as anything "special" or "reserved" for higher levels, just a different angle. I get what you're saying though and I'll keep it in mind. I have always something to fall back on if I get a thumbs down, so there are no worries.

But anyway, regardless of if I'll have this as my theme or not, you won't share your secret knowledge with me out of pure principle? Not for the inexperienced instructor, and neither for the curious learner? :)

I dont understand. Do you want to do kaeshiwaza during your 4th kyu exam? Or do you want to teach some kaeshi waza during this training session that is preparatory to your exam?

Either way, though, why would you want or need to do that?
Teach on training session.
Why? Because it's fun. Really, that's all. I think it's a fun waza, which you can learn a lot from. Since I understood this, my attempt at instructing, to just be some very lighthearted "it doesn't matter how well you do, just as long as you do it"-passage that everyone should go through, I didn't feel that my choice of technique was the important part. The important thing is that I show that I can explain what I know, and that I actually know that which I am trying to explain.
I may not know the kaeshiwaza I've discovered so far to 100%, but I sure don't know the most basic form of ikkyo to 100%, either... But I think I can explain them pretty well, anyway, and I feel I have a pretty good understanding of them as a whole (and some details, of course).

So, yeah, I don't need to, not at all. I just want to, because it's fun.

[aikidoc]

Being able to just reverse a techniqe that is started by someone, especially of your level, is not really a kaeshiwaza. There is much more involved: timing, energy redirection, etc. A well done kaeshiwaza with be so smooth the tori does not see it coming. The first one I had done on me while I was attempting a shihonage was so smooth and quick I ended up on my back looking at the ceiling not even knowing how I got there. It's easy to teach some basic reversals to techniques, especially when there are a lot of holes.

It's not an issue of sharing anything. It is simply difficult to describe something like this verbally. There are a lot of kaeshiwaza techniques that can be used. Most are techniques of opportunity, dynamic and contingent on what the tori does.

[eyrie]

... does that mean that I am "ready" to teach those kaeshiwaza that I have already figured out by myself, in which I see where the fault in the original technique is and how I can use that to counter it? You're basically saying that you should not go after kaeshiwaza until you naturally see the loop-holes and instinctively understand some different ways you can take advantage of them?

I wouldn't say you are "ready" to "teach"... not just yet. ;) Perhaps ready to demonstrate and share your understanding at this point?

By doing some specific kaeshiwaza that build on a specific fault in the basic technique, you perhaps get a more "concrete" understanding of what is done wrong and how you should correct it - and why it is so important to think about that specific detail while doing it.

Well, it's more like finding ways out of a specific technique - like taking ukemi is a basic "escape", kaeshiwaza is merely ukemi on a different level.

...you won't share your secret knowledge with me out of pure principle? Not for the inexperienced instructor, and neither for the curious learner? :)

Not that I can't or won't... IHTBS... it's hard to describe how to... e.g. sankyo to kotegaeshi... or nikyo to gokyo... or the multitude possibilities i.e. kamiwaza... I have to show you... then I have to kill you. :)

The important thing is that I show that I can explain what I know, and that I actually know that which I am trying to explain.
I may not know the kaeshiwaza I've discovered so far to 100%, but I sure don't know the most basic form of ikkyo to 100%, either... But I think I can explain them pretty well, anyway, and I feel I have a pretty good understanding of them as a whole (and some details, of course).

So start with something basic... if you are determined to demonstrate kaeshiwaza... start with ikkyo. What happens if you don't capture the elbow, or the center, or not pin correctly?

[raul rodrigo]

O
But anyway, regardless of if I'll have this as my theme or not, you won't share your secret knowledge with me out of pure principle? Not for the inexperienced instructor, and neither for the curious learner? :)

So, yeah, I don't need to, not at all. I just want to, because it's fun.


I could tell you, sure, but it wouldnt make much difference at this point. its hard to describe, for instance, a nikyo into sankyo reversal. in fact, no one ever taught it to me. After years of training, i found that i could just feel the "hole" in the waza and then move.

My other concern is that if you get too caught up in kaeshi at this point, without the sensitivity in ukemi to read tori's energy properly, you might at some point resist a lock (or any waza that puts stress on a joint) only to find that there is no hole after all, and you get injured in the process. I've seen it happen.

[Inte Pär]

Well, it's more like finding ways out of a specific technique - like taking ukemi is a basic "escape", kaeshiwaza is merely ukemi on a different level.
I've never really thought of ukemi as a part of the "do" in "aiki" from that light... food for thought, indeed

My other concern is that if you get too caught up in kaeshi at this point, without the sensitivity in ukemi to read tori's energy properly, you might at some point resist a lock (or any waza that puts stress on a joint) only to find that there is no hole after all, and you get injured in the process. I've seen it happen.
That is a good concern, yes. I could get overconfident because I'm overlooking the finer details. Though, I wouldn't want to try these things out when things go fast or with great power (in lack of a better word) - rather, I'd experiment with it in very loose and casual practice, to learn the theory, at least.
But, yes, it should definitely be taken into consideration.

[Jorge Garcia]

There are two other ways to put this. One is that at the kyu level, we are learning the basic techniques of Aikido. In our group, Yudansha or black belt means that you are competent at all the basic techniques of the art, you know it's history and philosophy and can share these with another person in a simple way as a sempai

Kaeshiwaza represents a deeper understanding and study of the art. It is inappropriate to emphasize kaeshiwaza too much until you have become proficient at the basics of the art. It would be like giving a study on alternative methods of open heart surgery while still in medical school. First the med school, then the study of open heart surgery, then the study of alternative methods, then the practicums and residencies.

For your 4th kyu test, you should give an explanation your favorite technique in the test for 4th kyu. rather than get into kaeshiwaza. A basic technique done properly is almost impossible to reverse. If you can't do your techniques now so that they can't be reversed, then it would make no sense to jump ahead and be showing reversals at someone's opening when you have the same opening in your own basic waza.

Besides that, kaeshi waza is not the heart of the art of Aikido but the basics are. My shihan very much emphasizes the basic techniques and around the world, he is known for having the best understanding of the basics. He has students in his dojos that are 6th, and 7th degree black belts that have come to study with him so that they can better understand the basics. What you are studying now is what will make you a great Aikidoist someday.
Best wishes,
Jorge

[Dirk Hanss]

Well, it's more like finding ways out of a specific technique - like taking ukemi is a basic "escape", kaeshiwaza is merely ukemi on a different level.

I like this one Ignatius.

My view on Kaeshi-waza is somewhat different in the arguments, but maybe finally they coincide.

For me there is no difference between kihon-waza and kaeshi-waza.
Someone attacks and you react. So kaeshi-waza is only possible on imperfect techniques (Who is perfect?), which means, nage/tori instead of using uke's power is providing own energy. Now it is just a typical katatedori, ryotedori or ryotedori (in all shihonage, kotegaeshi, tenchinage) or Tsuki/uchi/ate in iriminage or ai-gamae-ate which you have to react on. Yes, most critical is timing. You must recgnise, when the partner's technique changes to attack and act instantaneously.

That's why you have to train this on an advanced level. But is it really teaching new techniques? I would say no. It is just the application of the known to new situations, a part of takemusu-aiki.

And yes, the ultimate kaeshi-waza is taking ukemi or one good choice for ukemi is a kaeshi-technique.

Just a few thoughts


Dirk

[aikidoc]

I like Jorge's comments (we have the same sensei). I would further add that if your basics are good the opportunities for kaeshiwaza should be minimal.

[eyrie]

For me there is no difference between kihon-waza and kaeshi-waza. Someone attacks and you react. So kaeshi-waza is only possible on imperfect techniques (Who is perfect?), which means, nage/tori instead of using uke's power is providing own energy.

kaeshi simply means to turn over IOW a reversal or counter, so in that respect, I agree, why would there be any difference between applying a technique that happens to be kihon waza as a counter/reversal to someone applying a technique (even a kihon waza) on you?

To me, the kihon waza are like building blocks. Understanding the structure and function of the building blocks allows you to create all sorts of interesting structures with varying degrees of utility - some more useful than others.

It's not even necessary that one uses the other person's power/energy to effect a reversal. It's not even necessary that the technique being applied be "imperfect".

It is entirely possible to reverse/counter a technique at any point in time during the technique - even if one is being thrown/locked/pinned "correctly" - that's all a matter of being able to not lose "center", creating space, removing the base, changing the angle and direction, or by other means... which are all part of the basics and limited by your own level of understanding and creativity. ;)

[Dirk Hanss]

Well Ignatius, I understand, what you are saying

And yes, my despcription was based on a very idealistic view on soft (but effective) aikido, which means you would only use your partners energy. If he is not giving any, he is not aggressive and thus no technique necessary.

In real world (dojo, not street) it is a little bit different. So you are right.

But, if you are thinking of a dojo, where you could learn a perfect, i.e. uncounterable technique at any point, and when you are able to apply it, you get taught counters against any technique, what would happen? You'll get caught in a trap of a paradox. In just this split of a second the dojo would not exist any longer and could never have existed and I do not know what might have happend to all the students of this dojo.

Now let's come back to normal world. Any technique is counterable at any point. There are weaker moments and stronger moments. So the idea of the counter is to get aweak moment and start the counter, while the other oartner is trying to close thes weak situations (openings) either before they occur or at least, when the counter starts. If you cannot close it and the counter is happening, he will try to find again a weak point and recounter the counter.

But letting an opening occur, 'providing energy', 'losing centre', 'losing control', or 'losing balance' are here synonyms. Some might just sound a bit more esoteric ;)

Cheers

Dirk

[batemanb]

..... I've had that thought cross my mind once or twice. I'm definitely not going to try and teach something that I don't have a good enough grasp on .......

I think you've answered your own request.....:)

[charyuop]

By doing some specific kaeshiwaza that build on a specific fault in the basic technique, you perhaps get a more "concrete" understanding of what is done wrong and how you should correct it -and why it is so important to think about that specific detail while doing it.


To understand that for me it is very easy. If I am training with Senpai, he won't even move a single inch if the technique is not correct. It even gets better with Sensei. If I do it wrong and thus leave my defenses open...I just get punched (and not caressed..).

[charyuop]

By doing some specific kaeshiwaza that build on a specific fault in the basic technique, you perhaps get a more "concrete" understanding of what is done wrong and how you should correct it -and why it is so important to think about that specific detail while doing it.


I have a much better way to check what I do wrong with my techniques. When Sensei is my Uke and do it wrong thus leaving my nice defenses open I simply get punched. When I train with Senpai, he won't move a single inch if I do it wrong.

[raul rodrigo]

Gianluigi makes a good point. Exposing one's mistakes is much simpler than having the uke learn some exotic reversal. The other night on the mat, during a session with a japanese shihan, one yudansha made a mistake in his entry for shihonage. the shihan (almost) kicked him in the balls. He pulled it back at the last moment, but the point was made. A first kyu tried to enter for shihonage but still on the same line. The shihan bumped into him and knocked him back. Again, the point was made.

[CitoMaramba]

In the seminar I attended taught by Hiroaki Kobayashi Sensei, he devoted one session to kaeshi-waza and henka-waza. This was not for yudansha only and for many of the mudansha, it was probably their first exposure to this kind of practice.
Hiroaki Sensei had several people as his partner as he demonstrated, including several mudansha. It was obvious that familiarity with the kihon waza was necessary... there were times that Hiroaki Sensei would attack (katate-tori in this case) and the partner would have to respond with kihon waza (eg nikkyo) so that Sensei could demonstrate the kaeshi-waza. A few times, the mudansha could not complete a proper kihon waza, prompting from Hiroaki Sensei the dreaded question, "Who's your Sensei??!"
So IMHO kaeshi-waza and henka-waza require at least a familiarity, if not mastery of the kihon waza, Certainly they should be taught only by someone of the caliber of Hiroaki Sensei (who is a rokudan)

[raul rodrigo]

In the seminar I attended taught by Hiroaki Kobayashi Sensei, he devoted one session to kaeshi-waza and henka-waza. This was not for yudansha only and for many of the mudansha, it was probably their first exposure to this kind of practice.
Hiroaki Sensei had several people as his partner as he demonstrated, including several mudansha. It was obvious that familiarity with the kihon waza was necessary... there were times that Hiroaki Sensei would attack (katate-tori in this case) and the partner would have to respond with kihon waza (eg nikkyo) so that Sensei could demonstrate the kaeshi-waza. A few times, the mudansha could not complete a proper kihon waza, prompting from Hiroaki Sensei the dreaded question, "Who's your Sensei??!"
So IMHO kaeshi-waza and henka-waza require at least a familiarity, if not mastery of the kihon waza, Certainly they should be taught only by someone of the caliber of Hiroaki Sensei (who is a rokudan)

Cito, I am not familiar with Hiroaki Kobayashi. Perhaps you mean Yukimitsu Kobayashi of Hombu Dojo? Or am i mistaken?

R

[CitoMaramba]

Hiroaki Kobayashi is the son of Yasuo Kobayashi (Hachidan). Yukimitsu Kobayashi also travels to the UK to give seminars, usually in conjunction with the United Kingdom Aikikai.
This October, Yasuo Kobayashi Shihan will be giving a seminar in Bath. I'm looking forward to that!
Cheers, mate!

[Jerry Miller]

Hiroaki Kobayashi will be in Houston next Month.
http://www.aaa-aikido.com/Seminars/2007/2007%20Houston%20Hiroaki%20Kobayashi.pdf

[Michael Varin]

Inte,

There is nothing particularly advanced about kaeshi waza with a totally cooperative uke. I am not going to describe any specific reversals, but I do have some suggestions.

Ukemi is very important. As uke you should attentively observe and experience the techniques while nage is applying them. If your ukemi lacks sensitivity, you are negatively affecting your learning curve.

A friend of mine occasionally uses a game to help students understand reversals. I don't think he'll mind me sharing it. He calls it advantage/disadvantage.

A pair chooses who begins as uke and nage. Nage can begin the exercise with any technique he wants. Nage takes uke into a position where nage believes he has an advantage then stops in this position. From this position of disadvantage uke should find the most natural way to restore balance to his body and move into a position where he believes he has the advantage. Continue. The pace should be slow. The ukemi should be very light and very connected. When moving from disadvantage to advantage you should not feel tension build up in your body and you should not directly oppose your partner. The idea is not really to throw or bring your partner to the ground, but if it happens just reset and begin again.

There are more advanced practices to be sure, but this will give you a lot of feedback.

[CitoMaramba]

Hiroaki Kobayashi will be in Houston next Month.
http://www.aaa-aikido.com/Seminars/2007/2007%20Houston%20Hiroaki%20Kobayashi.pdf

That's great! I wish I could visit my brother in Houston next month..
Have a good time!

Cito