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Selnith
02-08-2007, 04:38 PM
for near enough the past 3 weeks i've been getting 4 hours of sleep a night at best (my house got broken into, my room trashed and my laptop stolen, hello paranoia, bye bye sleep) which would be ok, except i have classes work, ju jitsu, roleplay, real ale society and to try and fit food, family and friends in some where, so yea, i was getting a bit frazzled from bouncing around on sugar and caffeine but i think i've hit the equivilent of zimmermans wall (i think that's right, i'm sure some pratchett fan will correct me if it's not) and i'm feeling fine on little to no sleep, i know i can keep this up for at least 6 weeks from this point but i'd rather not, so if anyone has any ideas for anything that will make me sleep they'd be greatly appreciated, one rule, no drugs of any sort, i don't like drugs, pills or doctors.
thanks in advance

Steve Mullen
02-08-2007, 04:53 PM
The thing i have found helps best is two little words LAND LAW!!! read a book on it and hey presto sleep just washes over you, great on a night, not so good during lectures.

Jeremy Hulley
02-08-2007, 05:07 PM
Valarain root has worked well for me in the past.
Make sure you have enough time to get a full 8 hours of sleep.
Jeremy

Princess Rose
02-08-2007, 05:22 PM
Just train so hard you can't help but sleep :)

Janet Rosen
02-08-2007, 05:51 PM
Valerian CAN create depression in some folks so use w/ caution.
What works for me:
1. don't go to bed until I"m ready to sleep
2. no caffeine after lunch, no beverages during 2 hrs before bedtime
3. no reading or tv watching or computing in bed
4. really dark and quiet room
5. if not asleep in 1/2 hour, get up and go into another room to quietly read for a half hour/until sleepy
6. as much as possible, go to bed and get up at similar times all days of wk

Mike Sigman
02-08-2007, 06:13 PM
(my house got broken into, my room trashed and my laptop stolen, hello paranoia, bye bye sleep) That sort of violation to your life lasts a while, Krystyna. It takes a little bit of time to get past it.

I can offer the thing I do to get to sleep and you can try it to see if helps.

Inhale through the nose... don't let the tummy necessarily expand, but don't necessarily exert to pull it in... and feel pressure build up in the abdominal/tummy area. Pretend that you're drawing the inhale through the fontanel at the top of the head and that it builds up that slight abdominal pressure. Exhale and feel the pressure/breath go out through your toes. Feel it warm them and relax so you can feel the stream as it goes out through your legs to your toes. Pressure. Toes.

If your fingers are cold, you can let some of the pressure go out through the fingertips, too. ;)

I never get too many repetitions in. It's soporific.

FWIW

Mike

SeiserL
02-08-2007, 07:27 PM
(my house got broken into, my room trashed and my laptop stolen, hello paranoia, bye bye sleep)
IMHO, sounds like possible post traumatic stress from the invasion/violation. You might want to seek out a counselor to deprocess/debrief the situation.

stelios
02-09-2007, 01:12 AM
Yes,try raki. The local alcoholic drink of Greece. When obtained pure it can reach above 50-60% alcohol. Have a glass or two and try not to fall asleep. If you cannot obtain it where you live I can send you some. Guaranteed results. Has been working miracles for the past 4000years around here

Mike Grant
02-09-2007, 06:43 AM
Try reading Nev Sagiba on aikidojournal.com. That never fails to work for me.

Come to think of it though, counsellors can also be pretty soporific so the Californian approach may just be the answer.

SeiserL
02-09-2007, 07:33 AM
IMHO, if everything was fine before the break in and so different after, you may find that what you are experiencing (or re-experiencing) has its seed in the event. Direct cause-and-effect interia.

Its not soporific Californian to debrief after an incident. Its what the military and law enforcement do to be able to go back out there.

But hey, its your mind and your life, carry it as long as you want to avoid it.

Cady Goldfield
02-09-2007, 08:07 AM
If I understand correctly, Mr. Seiser is a trained psychotherapist and is probably the best source of information on this. I'd recommend considering what he has said, before just counting sheep at night. The other suggestions here are good techniques to practice -IN ADDITION- to getting psychological counseling for any potential post-traumatic impact from such an unsettling and violating event as a break-in, robbery and vandalism of one's personal property.

Kevin Wilbanks
02-09-2007, 09:28 AM
Take up crime. The stresses involved in committing crimes and associating with other criminals will be so great that when it comes time to sleep, you'll zonk right out. This is great therapy as well. By turning the tables and becoming a criminal, you'll empower yourself and come to see things from your intruder's point of view. Instead of viewing him as a threat, you'll see him as a colleague.

Hogan
02-09-2007, 10:46 AM
The thing i have found helps best is two little words LAND LAW!!! read a book on it ....

That actually sounds interesting to me...

[Help me....Please, help me.]

Taliesin
02-09-2007, 11:16 AM
Steve

I think you are underestimating the power of Land Law - it could easily put you into a coma.

heathererandolph
02-09-2007, 11:34 AM
Raki? That's cute. Alcohol may not be the best for actually staying asleep. It's funny that I've heard so much about different cures for insomnia and rarely is mentioned the number one thing that works for me...exercise! If I get 30+ minutes of Cardio, not too late at night, I have no trouble sleeping or staying asleep. It's also great for stress and boosts endorphins. The best time for exercise to induce sleep is supposed to be late afternoon, though even doing it in the morning works for me. I'd also sleep well after Aikido practice. If that does not work, maybe you should get a prescription. Don't suffer too long!

Heather

stelios
02-10-2007, 04:35 AM
I trully insist on raki (Tsikoudia in Crete). If no additives/preservatives were added you get a nice deep sleep and not a hangover the following day. The stuff works! :)

Mike Grant
02-10-2007, 10:01 AM
IMHO, if everything was fine before the break in and so different after, you may find that what you are experiencing (or re-experiencing) has its seed in the event. Direct cause-and-effect interia.

Its not soporific Californian to debrief after an incident. Its what the military and law enforcement do to be able to go back out there.

But hey, its your mind and your life, carry it as long as you want to avoid it.

A story for you Mr Seiser:

An acquaintance was the medical officer at Lympstone-the Commando Training Centre for the Royal Marines. One day a very experienced senior non comissioned officer came in to consult him and said (I quote) 'Is this where I sign up for that PTSD thing sir?'

In other words, a lot of this is about compensation and if soldiers (even 'elite' soldiers) think that there's a pay out going....

Actually, there's quite a lot of evidence that PTSD was a post-Vietnam War invention by the US psychiatric establishment. Funnily enough, there's nothing in the records before then and it seems to have created an entire industry of 'therapists'.

My advice? Steer clear of them all :rolleyes. You Americans may love to talk about your feelings, but there's no eveidence that it actually does you any good.

Jim ashby
02-10-2007, 11:07 AM
Lavender oil sprinkled on a pillow or in your bed gives deeper sleep. Test yourself first for sensitvity and don't get the oil directly on the skin.
Works for me!

Steve Mullen
02-11-2007, 10:53 AM
Steve

I think you are underestimating the power of Land Law - it could easily put you into a coma.

Dave, thanks, I should have put a warning on it first, i forget that after 4 years i have built up somewhat of an immunity so i have to read more for it to have the same effect :crazy:

Selnith
02-12-2007, 03:28 AM
i've been to the counselling service and the long and short of it is "you got broken into, be glad it took them a year and a half to find you, they didn't take much, you'll be fine" and as for getting something on prescription, the docs round here are useless "you've been getting some sleep and it's not been over a month yet so i don't think we'll prescribe anything"
i'll try the valerian root, that and a book on landlaw seem to be the only things i haven't tried (except raki which is bad and wrong)
thnks for the assist

SeiserL
02-12-2007, 07:27 AM
i've been to the counselling service and the long and short of it is "you got broken into, be glad it took them a year and a half to find you, they didn't take much, you'll be fine"
Sorry about that. IMHO, it sounds like you got someone who did not understand trauma or debreifing (not generic counseling).

Good luck to you. Sending empathy, compassion, and compliments for reaching out.

Cady Goldfield
02-12-2007, 01:59 PM
I've read that the "law" in England consists of forcing residents to remain passive when robbed, having their home burglarized, and other violations of person and privacy. Defending oneself seems to draw penalty, and there have been horror stories of constables not doing their job during the crime, and police detectives not doing their job after the crime. And given the structure of the British medical system, maybe it's not a stretch of the imagination to assume that the attitude of the psychological counselers assigned to serve "the masses" is equally unsupportive.

Still, I believe Krystyna should seek a better-trained and more astute counselor. There must be one available; through referrels or recommendations she may find one. There has to be some kind of support network, even in the form of women's (or mixed) victim support groups (or similar organized gathering) that meet at local community centers, etc. Not getting treatment, resorting to "self-medication" and fending for oneself, just reinforces the internal belief that "maybe I deserved what I got/I brought it on myself" and "I'm doomed to being a victim with no recourse." I'd hate to see anyone go down that slope.

James Davis
02-13-2007, 11:36 AM
I'm sorry that your place got broken into. If it's really fear that's keeping you up, I would suggest empowering yourself in some way. I don't know what your situation is, so I can't make any particular suggestions as to how to do this... :sorry:

Whenever I read a good Dean Koontz book I'll usually stay up really late. If it's a page-turner, I might not sleep at all! :) Having no sleep makes for a really bad day, but I'll sleep really well the next night.

Just get something done. Listen to some music, or maybe write a letter to a friend. Insomnia can sometimes be an opportunity. ;)

Best of luck to you.

Lorien Lowe
02-13-2007, 09:30 PM
...there's quite a lot of evidence that PTSD was a post-Vietnam War invention by the US psychiatric establishment.
Could you post some of this evidence?
IIrc the first 'ptsd,' to be well documented (though not called "PTSD") was the 'shell-shock' of English vetrans of WWI.

SeiserL
02-14-2007, 07:14 AM
Actually, there's quite a lot of evidence that PTSD was a post-Vietnam War invention by the US psychiatric establishment. Funnily enough, there's nothing in the records before then and it seems to have created an entire industry of 'therapists'.
IMHO, actually prior to Vietnam PTSD was called "shell-shock" or "battle-fatigue". There is a lot of literature that documents the effects of battle, especially on the un-prepared and un-debriefed mind.

You're right that the actual PTSD diagnostic label came later. But the "establishment" did not create the condition.

In fact they went out of their way (along with VA) to deny it. They were finally somewhat forced to recognized it and attempted to be of service to those of us grunts who could not figure out what was going on.

PTSD is a useful tool to understand what happens in the aftermath of a trauma of any sorts.

Please, if you have never been there, or faced that demon, don't comment and prevent other people from asking for help.

Mike Grant
02-14-2007, 08:18 AM
IMHO, actually prior to Vietnam PTSD was called "shell-shock" or "battle-fatigue". There is a lot of literature that documents the effects of battle, especially on the un-prepared and un-debriefed mind.

You're right that the actual PTSD diagnostic label came later. But the "establishment" did not create the condition.

In fact they went out of their way (along with VA) to deny it. They were finally somewhat forced to recognized it and attempted to be of service to those of us grunts who could not figure out what was going on.

PTSD is a useful tool to understand what happens in the aftermath of a trauma of any sorts.

Please, if you have never been there, or faced that demon, don't comment and prevent other people from asking for help.

Lynn,

Sorry to contradict, but PTSD and 'shell shock', 'battle fatigue', 'disorderd action of the heart' (the last one date from the American Civil War) are two very different things. This lady does not have the latter and there is no need for her to develope the former.

'Flashbacks' are necessary for a diagnosis of PTSD and if you look back through War Pensions records (as the researchers at King's College London Department of Military Psychiatry did) what you find is that nobody was experiencing (or least was complaining about and/or disabled by) 'flashbacks' until after the Vietnam War when some genius over there thouight it up and the concept spread like wild fire-and that's notwithstanding the Tom Cruise character in the Last Samurai.

If you want the academic references, then PM me and I'll look them out. If I get time, I'll do it anyway and post them on here. But my advice would be to just get on with your life and not get involved in the whole compensation/victim culture. Being burgled isn't much fun (most of us over here have been there at some point as we're not allowed to actively 'discourage' intruders the way that you can), but it's pretty trivial compared to what some people have to cope with.

Mike Sigman
02-14-2007, 08:26 AM
'Flashbacks' are necessary for a diagnosis of PTSD and if you look back through War Pensions records (as the researchers at King's College London Department of Military Psychiatry did) what you find is that nobody was experiencing (or least was complaining about and/or disabled by) 'flashbacks' until after the Vietnam War when some genius over there thouight it up and the concept spread like wild fire-and that's notwithstanding the Tom Cruise character in the Last Samurai. Hi Mike:

I'm not sure what "flashbacks" are, except for sudden remembrances. Somehow the idea that people who had been through previous wars never had sudden painful remembrances of combat episodes doesn't ring true to me. Whatever you want to call it, traumatic experiences have an effect on people, some more than others. Some people progress better by talking things out; some people progress better by just getting on with their lives. I doubt there's a one-size-fits-all commentary we can make.

And don't knock flashbacks. If it weren't for flashbacks, Ozzy Osbourne wouldn't even have a memory at all. ;)

Mike

SeiserL
02-14-2007, 08:42 AM
If you want the academic references, then PM me and I'll look them out.
Thanks for the offer Mike, but referencing both sides of the argument was part of my Doctoral dissertation.

Cady Goldfield
02-14-2007, 08:49 AM
And don't knock flashbacks. If it weren't for flashbacks, Ozzy Osbourne wouldn't even have a memory at all. ;)


Ack. Thanks for having just made me expel tea through my nose. :p
(Apologies for the levity in view of this serious topic. Mike seized control of my funnybone.)

Mike Grant
02-15-2007, 03:56 AM
Thanks for the offer Mike, but referencing both sides of the argument was part of my Doctoral dissertation.

Maybe you should speak with my friend the professor of military psychiatry then :)

Personally, I try to keep an open mind, but if you don't even know the difference between PTSD and 'combat fatigue', 'shell shock', or whatever else you want to call it AND don't want to learn, then you're right, I'm not sure where this conversation is taking us.

Mike Grant
02-15-2007, 04:12 AM
Hi Mike:

I'm not sure what "flashbacks" are, except for sudden remembrances. Somehow the idea that people who had been through previous wars never had sudden painful remembrances of combat episodes doesn't ring true to me. Whatever you want to call it, traumatic experiences have an effect on people, some more than others. Some people progress better by talking things out; some people progress better by just getting on with their lives. I doubt there's a one-size-fits-all commentary we can make.

And don't knock flashbacks. If it weren't for flashbacks, Ozzy Osbourne wouldn't even have a memory at all. ;)

Mike

I'll look the DSM III (1980) criteria for PTSD out for you over the weekend and post them on here. "Flashbacks" has a very specific meaning within this and it's pretty close to that portrayed by Tom Cruise in the Last Samurai. Once again, there's no hard evidence of this before the Vietnam War-although i guess that Lynn would come out with the purported biblical and/or literaray references. PTSD has generated an entire good cottage industry for the 'therapists' and lawyers since then. Ozzy Osbourne on the other hand doesn't look like he regrets anything he's been up to, so where's the 'stress' in that?.

No offence Lynn, but you refer to your own PhD (from which institution might I ask?) but don't ask for my credentials. If you have any objective evidence to back up what you say, then why not just post it rather than try to stiffle debate?

Just my opinion, but attempting to promote the whole victim/compensation culture thing is not something that we should be doing as martial artists.

SeiserL
02-15-2007, 07:44 AM
I'm not sure where this conversation is taking us.
IMHO, further from being any service to the suffering of the individual who asked the original question.

SeiserL
02-15-2007, 07:59 AM
No offence Lynn, but you refer to your own PhD (from which institution might I ask?) but don't ask for my credentials. If you have any objective evidence to back up what you say, then why not just post it rather than try to stiffle debate?

Just my opinion, but attempting to promote the whole victim/compensation culture thing is not something that we should be doing as martial artists.
No offense taken Mike, I have nothing to hide. B.A. in psychology and philosophy from Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan: M.A. in Marriage, Family, and Child Counseling from Chapman College/University in Orange, California; and Ph.D. in psychology from Southern California University for Professional Studies. Twenty-eight years of clinical experience in the direct treatment of offenders and victims of violence, trauma, abuse, and addiction. U.S.Army veteran, field artillery 1972-1974.

Don't worry, I won't asked for yours. Been there, done that, and won't waste my time.

Not trying to "stiffle debate". IMHO, this was only a statement of opinions so the original poster could get some assistance. Information shared. The choice is theirs. This thread was not to be a debate on the contradiction in the professional literature or opinions on PTSD. They exist. No question. No problem. We all read them and make our own opinion (not truth) in relationship to our experience.

Agreed, we should never advocate, promote, or perpetuate a victim mentality.

But what does any of this have to do with the original request for suggestions? Since the person who asked that question appears to have exited, it would appear this thread no longer serves the original purpose, but was high-jacked (with my participation). Sorry about that.

Neil Mick
02-15-2007, 09:03 PM
IMHO, actually prior to Vietnam PTSD was called "shell-shock" or "battle-fatigue".

You're right that the actual PTSD diagnostic label came later. But the "establishment" did not create the condition.

In fact they went out of their way (along with VA) to deny it. They were finally somewhat forced to recognized it and attempted to be of service to those of us grunts who could not figure out what was going on.

PTSD is a useful tool to understand what happens in the aftermath of a trauma of any sorts.

Please, if you have never been there, or faced that demon, don't comment and prevent other people from asking for help.

Interesting thread. Just an offhand comment from a disinterested reader...

Since Dr. Seiser is the psychologist here, I would heed his aviso, carefully. And since he is more of an "expert" here than any other poster so far...I would also give more creedence to his assertion that PTSD and shell shock, are the same.

Still, the idea that they're different is news to me. I'd be interested to see some of those sources, and why this is a controversy, if it indeed is.

If you want the academic references, then PM me and I'll look them out. If I get time, I'll do it anyway and post them on here.

Yes, pls do.

Apologies for the levity in view of this serious topic

Ah yes, but humor has its place...

This conversation reminds me of a particular comic monologue....

George Carlin: "Soft Language" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMaDWlDcQDM) :cool: Enjoy.

Mike Hamer
02-15-2007, 10:42 PM
That sort of violation to your life lasts a while, Krystyna. It takes a little bit of time to get past it.

I can offer the thing I do to get to sleep and you can try it to see if helps.

Inhale through the nose... don't let the tummy necessarily expand, but don't necessarily exert to pull it in... and feel pressure build up in the abdominal/tummy area. Pretend that you're drawing the inhale through the fontanel at the top of the head and that it builds up that slight abdominal pressure. Exhale and feel the pressure/breath go out through your toes. Feel it warm them and relax so you can feel the stream as it goes out through your legs to your toes. Pressure. Toes.

If your fingers are cold, you can let some of the pressure go out through the fingertips, too. ;)

I never get too many repetitions in. It's soporific.

FWIW

Mike


What he said. I just interept it as imaging the blood in my body rushing to my toes, this too creates that tingling effect. I also try to completly relax every part of my body, and let my mind go blank.

emma.mason15
02-15-2007, 11:55 PM
i always find going to bed helps ..... ohohoh ... and vodka ..... ahhhhhhhhhh

shidoin
02-18-2007, 05:13 PM
meditation, in through the nose 4 counts, hold for 2 counts, out for 4 counts, focus on nothing sit in seiza, Seiza benches work well. Herbs can do wonders but don't do them often. Try to get all stress off the mind 3 hours before sleep. Use zen meditation music, incense, candles. Think positive thought.

Lorien Lowe
02-19-2007, 04:03 AM
Talk to someone about what happened, too - just a friend for starters if you don't feel like paying for it.

I carried a couple of bad deaths from work around with me for a long time - at one point, replaying them in my head took more of my time than thinking about anything else did. At first, only very closely related subjects would remind me of an incident: "fireworks," for instance, or "blood." Later, pretty much anything worked as a reminder ("young man." "holiday." "celebration." "river." etc, spoken or seen or read or experienced), and I frequently had to pause to get my mind back on track.I was afraid to tell anyone about it because I didn't want to 'infect' them with my ghosts. It was an enormous relief when I finally found someone to talk to - a nurse who knew enough about bad deaths to both understand what I was talking about and not be harmed by my telling her about it (and who dosen't work with me, so I didn't feel like I was weakening myself where I work).

Some things go away or get better with time, and some things get worse.
Regardless of what you call it, or whether you pay for it, talking seems to help.

Lorien Lowe
02-19-2007, 04:12 AM
I apologize for the self-invloved maundering; I did have a point. What matters is not how awful the event is on an absolute scale (I, for instance, was never in any personal danger at all), but how the individual reacts to them.