Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)

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[xuzen]

Non-cooperative tanto dori (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KAbbKRhnN4&eurl=)

As you can see, grabbing the wrist and trying to to grapple with a knife wielding assailant is not the brightest of idea, IMO. To me, it is very risky, as the chances of getting cuts is just to prohibitive.

I have some thoughts wrt to better ways to deal with such scenario (empty hand wise), but I reserve my judgement till I hear more opinion from other posters.

Kali people like Mike Gallagher, would you like to comment?

Boon.

[Mike Hamer]

Me and a friend do something simmilar to that but just for wrist control and off balancing empty handed. Trying to pull off a Nikkyo when someones really resiting is very hard! But I guess I shouldn't be fighting for a Nikkyo if thats not the direction he's intent on....eh? I agree with you on the bit about approaching someone with a knife like that, just grabbing for their wrist seems like suicide to me. Let em' come at you and wait for them to make a commited strike then FABWAM!

[raul rodrigo]

I have a friend who's trained in kali. he showed us some of their moves. I quickly decided i wanted no part of anyone trained in that art. the only way to deal with it, it seems, is to train in it yourself. Which i will get around to one of these days.

[SeiserL]

I trained in FMA/JKD with the late Ted Lucaylucay.

IMHO, a trained knife fighter never attacks, only ambushes.

From an Aikido perspective, work on footwork to get off the line/angle of attack and controlling the weapon while taking balance.

Cross-training is about the only way for this to make sense.

[kocakb]

Good for training, but it is not fair. The guy with the knife is free in movement, just tries to cut his opponent. But the defensive guy is restricted, can not punch or kick for off-balancing (to not harm his friend). Therefore, he only grasps and tries to find an opening to do a technique (and is able at the end of the clip). I don't think it is a good idea to grasp the opponents wrist, if he is stronger, you would have no chance...

[DonMagee]

Good for training, but it is not fair. The guy with the knife is free in movement, just tries to cut his opponent. But the defensive guy is restricted, can not punch or kick for off-balancing (to not harm his friend). Therefore, he only grasps and tries to find an opening to do a technique (and is able at the end of the clip). I don't think it is a good idea to grasp the opponents wrist, if he is stronger, you would have no chance...

Well you could always throw some boxing headgear and MMA sparing gloves on.

[Jonathan]

Yeesh! What are those guys playing at? I tell you what, you come toward me with your hands extended out in front of you like the big fellow in the clip was doing when I'm attacking you with a knife and I'll be carving up your hands! See how well you disarm me with the flesh of your hands cut to ribbons. Also extending you arms like the big guy is doing exposes wrist and brachial arteries which, if severed, would, in the case of a brachial artery cut, make him bleed to death in about five minutes.

Straining and struggling like these two in the clip were doing with each other does not work in a real knife attack situation. The big guy is way too preoccupied with the knife and the threat it represents to him. YOu can see it in the way he moves. With his mind thus preoccupied he is unable to deal creatively and effectively with his attacker. I'd suggest he forget about getting cut and focus on relaxing, moving past the knife, and dealing with his attacker. As he does this he'll find, in time, that he gets cut less and less without having to struggle for control of the knife. This is the nice thing about training: I can survive my mistakes and learn from them.

Just a few of the many thoughts that sprung to mind as I watched this video clip.



ANd why isn't the big guy using strikes? Very...odd.

[Tim Fong]

Raul,

In Quezon City I'm sure you have a lot of options for training kali =)

Mikel,

Against a trained opponent (like the guys Raul mentioned) you are unlikely to see a "fully committed" strike. And that doens't mean it's weak either.

[Neil Mick]

I once got into a friendly discussion with a mudansha about knife attacks. He opined that a real knife-fighter would simply carve up any aikidoist stupid enough to try an aikido technique, as the strikes in knife fighting are very different than what we practice.

So, to test his theory, we tried it. I'd try and come in with a technique, and he would tap the tanto against my arm, leg, whatever, then dance away. After a few rounds of this I realized that I was (figuratively) bleeding to death, trying to take that knife away. And so, I came in with a full, open stance (not trying to take his blade away, this time), which threw the uke so off that I slipped in and gave a very satisfying koshi.

Whereupon I would likely have fallen over from loss of blood, were it a real fight. :D But the point was made.

[Ron Tisdale]

50% life 50% death. Take a shot...who knows?

52% life 48% death...sounds better.

Either way...

Best,
Ron

[Michael Varin]

Hello Everyone,

I'm one of the guys in this clip. Thanks for the comments.

Allow me to put it in context for you.

This is a training exercise. It is not meant to represent knife fighting. As pointed out earlier: IMHO, a trained knife fighter never attacks, only ambushes.when I'm attacking you with a knife and I'll be carving up your hands!Even calling it tanto dori is a little misleading. The idea for the grabber is to maintain a strong grip, the knife holder to stay relaxed and escape, or for either to apply a technique and counteract the techniques being applied. It begins after a firm grip has been applied. Strikes aren't allowed so the focus can be put on working with the grip. The knife is there as an incentive. We do several versions of this where the focus is slightly different. We also use varying degrees of resistance; on a scale of 1-10 this one was about 9. No, it isn't fair. . . But it's fun, and good training, as long as you know where it fits in.

Michael

[Michael Varin]

See how well you disarm me with the flesh of your hands cut to ribbons. Also extending you arms like the big guy is doing exposes wrist and brachial arteries which, if severed, would, in the case of a brachial artery cut, make him bleed to death in about five minutes.A lot can happen in five minutes, especially when considering multiple attackers. There are numerous instances where people get shot in the face and don't stop coming. You just never know.

[ChrisHein]

Hey guys,
I'm the other guy in the video I guess I'm the "big fellow". The idea of the drill is to train both the grabbing and the knife useing side. It is not a fair drill, but it's also not competitive, so it doesn't matter that it's one sided. Also the drill doesn't start till one person has a secure grab, as this lets us focus on the escapes and techniqual aspects of Aikido instead of the parts you normally see trained in standard jiyu waza.

I have talked at length on Aikiweb many times of my oppinions of Aikido as a weapons system. I believe the techniques of Aikido are (mostly) designed to deal with a guy who trys to restrain your weapon hand. If you look you can see Mike useing Nikkyo several times to free his knife hand and stab me. We are attempting to train the techniques against resistance, as most Aikidoka will freeze up when the face resistance for the frist time, we are trying to train that out of ourselves.

There are lots of variations we are working on, and this is just one of them. Please don't look at this as a Knife fight, or a Tanto Dori, or any other such, it's only a randori with a knife.

-Christopher Hein
p.s. Jonathan, if you don't worrie about the knife you will be cut much more, if you don't believe me, you should come to our dojo, and we'll go a few minutes and see how you do.

[Mike Hamer]

Raul,

In Quezon City I'm sure you have a lot of options for training kali =)

Mikel,

Against a trained opponent (like the guys Raul mentioned) you are unlikely to see a "fully committed" strike. And that doens't mean it's weak either.


Good point Tim. I cross train also, working with alot of different things. We are tought to make a train kind of motion with the knife hand and our off hand making it very difficult to get a disarm. Quick small movements.

[raul rodrigo]

I trained in FMA/JKD with the late Ted Lucaylucay.

IMHO, a trained knife fighter never attacks, only ambushes.

From an Aikido perspective, work on footwork to get off the line/angle of attack and controlling the weapon while taking balance.

Cross-training is about the only way for this to make sense.


Since you've cross-trained in FMA, Seiser sensei, you're the man to ask: can aikido waza deal effectively with an attacker who's trained in kali? Or is having Kali experience the only effective answer?

[DH]

Some advice
1. If your facing a guy who can actually use a knife your are going to get cut or die. Its too fast in the right hands with three or four cuts and stabs a second. The knife is only one tool. You still have two hands, two feet, a body and quite possibly a decent predatory mind to deal with on top of that. In short while you are preoccupied with getting stabbed and cut he will be preoccupied with taking you apart in other ways. Knives are a great intimidation tool. A mental game. You may be surprised at the level of understanding of their affect on people-that has been discussed on the wrong side of the tracks.

The good news
2. Most men don't know how to use a knife.
And
3. Most martial artists think they can

In the real world the best course of action?
Leave.

If you have to stay for some odd reason and you are not trained? You're probably going to die.
If you have seriously trained.
You're probably going to just get seriously cut.

Your best defense is your mindset and being prepared to face blood and pain. And you are going to be hard pressed to develope that in a dojo. There's nothing to really say here. Trying to find someone with experience who can handle this stuff can be difficult.

I've never seen Aikido knife techniques that were worth anything-either in attack and defense.
Cheers
Dan

[xuzen]

IMHO, a trained knife fighter never attacks, only ambushes.
From an Aikido perspective, work on footwork to get off the line/angle of attack and controlling the weapon while taking balance.

Thanks, Lynn. You certainly put things into perspective. Getting off the trajectary of hostile intent is my first priority. Not grappling like what is shown on the clip. Hence, tenkan and irimi movement is of primary importance.

Yeesh! What are those guys playing at? I tell you what, you come toward me with your hands extended out in front of you like the big fellow in the clip was doing when I'm attacking you with a knife and I'll be carving up your hands! See how well you disarm me with the flesh of your hands cut to ribbons. Also extending you arms like the big guy is doing exposes wrist and brachial arteries which, if severed, would, in the case of a brachial artery cut, make him bleed to death in about five minutes.
My thoughts exactly.

So, to test his theory, we tried it. I'd try and come in with a technique, and he would tap the tanto against my arm, leg, whatever, then dance away. After a few rounds of this I realized that I was (figuratively) bleeding to death, trying to take that knife away. And so, I came in with a full, open stance (not trying to take his blade away, this time), which threw the uke so off that I slipped in and gave a very satisfying koshi.
Neil, I have never done Kali or FMA stuff before. However, I do regularly experiment with my fellow dojo mates about knife disarm. My favourite role is as uke, and I regularly dice and slice their arm with my wooden tanto. I can imagine how dangerous a trained knife fighter is.

To MikeV and ChrisH, thanks for chipping in. And thanks for putting things into perspective. Your opinions are noted.

To me, when I do these tanto-dori with my sempai (he is 3rd Dan) I am Shodan...we tried it without prearraged sequence. As uke, I would feint, jab with my tanto, slice diagonally, try to slice his hands... you get the idea.

What I notice is my sempai will always move out of reach from me. He always draw me into his sphere and then... WHAM! He will shomen-ate, aigamae-ate (irimi-nage) or ushiro-ate and next thing I am on the floor. Oh and he also tends to slap my tanto hands away. He never grab, just slap it away (from the bruises I received, I will say, he slapped them quite forcefully).

Boon.

[ChrisHein]

Dan,
I agree with you. No doubt that the best option when facing a weapon (or any physical confrontation armed or not) is to leave. Barring that you must out range or control the weapon. If I am not armed out ranging even a knife is not possible so I must control the weapon. I agree there will probably be plenty of blood and pain, and I may likely die, yes.

Boon,
Personally I believe that the techniques of Aikido are designed for me to use when I have the weapon. They help me to free up my weapon hand so that I can keep using my weapon. In the practice we are doing, it is not particularly important that it's a knife, it could be a stick or a stun gun, or a pistol that we are using. It's that a knife is an easy thing for us to practice with. Looking at it from the perspective of being the person with the knife (or weapon of any type) you can see that you have the clear advantage, however if there are multiple attackers, and one of them can grab your weapon hand and control it for more then a few seconds, all of his friends can easily bring you down and finish you off. This is why I think these techniques are relevant. This is why I said this is NOT tanto dori, the focus is not on one guy taking the knife away, if anything it's on the knifer freeing himself up so he can cut more. The other guy does get the benefit of trying to control an armed attacker, but that's just a benefit.

If you are facing a man with a weapon all of the cards are stacked against you. You do not have range (even with a small weapon like a knife), you do not have the advantage close in (especially with a short weapon like a knife) so you cannot reasonably apply unarmed grappling methods (headlocks, bear hugs etc.). In short you are in a bad way. The only chance you may stand is to control the weapon hand so your attacker cannot use the weapon against you or your friends. This is done by grabbing the weapon hand.


I am in no way suggesting that it is a good idea to face a man with a knife, I would never choose to do that and I don't recommend it. However if I have to use a weapon, I want to make sure no one is going to be able to control my weapon hand, stopping me from cutting them up. This is what I believe Aikido's technical syllabus is designed to do, free my weapon hand as soon as possible so that if I have to face a mob, it's hard for them to bring me down.

[L. Camejo]

This vid is pretty good at what the participants state it is supposed to achieve. We can see that the tanto wielder is giving his hand to his partner and then the exercise starts, this is not tanto dori as they stated.

This exercise is done by us actually as part of our tanto randori training for shiai. If I may just make some observations based on the vid:

The knife wielder has many opportunities to throw the empty handed partner via sokumen, irimi nage, shomen ate, ushiro ate and a host of other throws if more hip power and rotational force were used to end the face to face stalemate that happened once both hands became occupied with holding the knife hand and the other arm of the attacker. This actually shows how the Aikido techniques that are based on a wrist grab are designed to work. When one is resisting and trying to control the knife, the grab on the knife hand is very strong, this force can be used to do a host of throws and other waza just as they are practiced against wrist grabs in kata.

Like I said, not a bad vid to illustrate its stated goals. It looks quiote familiar to me.

As regards dealing with a trained knife wielder it may be best not to be unarmed if one can help it. However, attacks rarely catch us at our best so serious tanto training does have its place regardless of whether one will get cut. That is par for the course imho the key is to understand the dynamics and include "getting cut" as part of your training approach so it is dealt with.

Train on.

LC:ai::ki:

[deepsoup]

This vid is pretty good at what the participants state it is supposed to achieve. We can see that the tanto wielder is giving his hand to his partner and then the exercise starts, this is not tanto dori as they stated.
I agree. I think I'd characterise this practice as hiketategeiko. The 'hiketate' suggests a kind of gopher - your partner is in a sense running errands for you, in resisting the techniques you try to apply, he's going out of his way to help you practice.

The knife wielder has many opportunities to throw the empty handed partner via sokumen, irimi nage, shomen ate, ushiro ate and a host of other throws if more hip power and rotational force were used to end the face to face stalemate that happened once both hands became occupied with holding the knife hand and the other arm of the attacker.

He also has a few opportunities to apply the more percussive kind of atemi with his empty hand. Which brings me to this:

The only chance you may stand is to control the weapon hand so your attacker cannot use the weapon against you or your friends. This is done by grabbing the weapon hand.

I agree with the former, but not the latter. The trouble with grabbing the weapon hand is that you become entirely focussed on that hand. You can see it in the video a few times - toshu's posture goes, as he drops his head and he's actually looking closely at the weapon. The next time you try this drill, I'd suggest that you try keeping at least one hand open, in contact with tanto's arm/hand but not actually gripping it. As far as possible, don't look at the weapon, but look at tanto as a whole person, maybe even making eye contact. That way toshu is still aware of what's going on with the weapon, but also remains alive to the possibility of his own atemi waza - be it percussive atemi as a prelude to some other technique, or atemiwaza in the Shodokan sense, shomenate, aigamaeate, gyakugamaeate (ie: iriminage, sokumen iriminage, etc.)

Like I said, not a bad vid to illustrate its stated goals. It looks quite familiar to me.
Funny that. :)
As Larry says, this is pretty familiar to the Shodothugs. There are quite a few drills along these lines, which are particularly useful for people who're interested in getting into some tanto shiai.

The Systema folks have some very interesting drills along these lines too, it might be worth checking out what they do if there's a good group nearby, or maybe getting a look at one of Vladimir Vasiliev's DVDs.

Sean
x

[Ketsan]

Non-cooperative tanto dori (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KAbbKRhnN4&eurl=)

As you can see, grabbing the wrist and trying to to grapple with a knife wielding assailant is not the brightest of idea, IMO. To me, it is very risky, as the chances of getting cuts is just to prohibitive.

I have some thoughts wrt to better ways to deal with such scenario (empty hand wise), but I reserve my judgement till I hear more opinion from other posters.

Kali people like Mike Gallagher, would you like to comment?

Boon.

How weird. Our resistive training (read: after class messing around with a tanto) looks nothing like that. Usually there's an attack made (which can be anything from a nasty little flick to full on chudan tsuki), which is deflected/slapped out of the way with one hand and the wrist taken with the other, atemi is put in with the first hand, or knee, foot, elbow, all of the above, followed by a technique. All emphasis is placed on bringing uke (the person holding the tanto, during the course of the messing around either or both tori and uke can end up taking ukemi) to the ground as quickly as possible rather than dealing with the tanto.

The first technique seldom works and it becomes something like a Judo match with Aikido techniques (and the odd Judo technique) and atemi. In one way or another it ends up on the floor, but not in a BJJ way (there's nothing so formal BJJ groundwork, uke gets up too fast to do anything other than drop on them), where either the tanto is taken with a wrist lock and maybe a "bit" of atemi, or we trap the arm (usually by sitting/kneeling on it) and try a choke or grab their nuts or something, whatever seems expedient and most likely to stop uke resisting in the shortest possible time.

Tori wins about 70-80% of the time if they're smart and fast enough to switch techniques just as uke starts to resist. If they attempt to force a technique on a resisting uke there's a high probability that they'll be killed horribly or uke will break free and attack again.

[Michael Varin]

How weird. Our resistive training looks nothing like that. Usually there's an attack made, which is deflected/slapped out of the way with one hand and the wrist taken with the other, atemi is put in with the first hand, or knee, foot, elbow, all of the above, followed by a technique. All emphasis is placed on bringing uke (the person holding the tanto) to the ground as quickly as possible rather than dealing with the tanto.

Tori wins about 70-80% of the time if they're smart and fast enough to switch techniques just as uke starts to resist. If they attempt to force a technique on a resisting uke there's a high probability that they'll be killed horribly or uke will break free and attack again.Funny. We also do a drill where "uke" (with knife) can attack in any manner he chooses (below the neck), and "nage" (sans knife) seeks to apply technique, which could be deflecting, grabbing, evading, throwing, whatever he deems appropriate. Uke "wins" 95% of the time. No one's been killed yet though!

Do you feel having a knife put you at a disadvantage?

Just to reiterate, the video that started this thread was not tanto dori per se, but you should make a video of your tanto dori, and post it. I'd like to see what you're doing.

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Strike.....strike......STRIKE!

IMO, any defense of an open handed defender against a knife wielding attacker that does not include striking is fiction at best. Not to say that I do not train for the perfect moment where the attacker lunges in with minimal skill. This of course is the gravy train but not the real danger. IMO, defending against a knifer requires striking. Strike: the hand, wrist, forearm, elbow, bicep, tricep, body, head, etc. and repeatedly. Please do not assume I mean standing in one place. The defender MUST be moving, ALWAYS and the strikes must be part of the motion, i.e. escape (defend) and counter attacker are done in the same motion. Attempt to do one then the other and it is too slow. Joint locks, take downs, controls, etc. are an opporunity presented for a fraction of a second to be capitalized on but created by correct body postion and striking.

FYI, all strikes are not created equal. Find those that require minimal motion and deliver maximum effectiveness AND fit with your escapes. Good training drills that give the attacker full freedom generally give the best challenge.

Mark J.

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Tori wins about 70-80% of the time if they're smart and fast enough to switch techniques just as uke starts to resist. If they attempt to force a technique on a resisting uke there's a high probability that they'll be killed horribly or uke will break free and attack again.

Wow!!!! !!!!! !!!!

I did not read this until after I posted. I really want to train with the group that has these results.....that is if the training method is valid. As mentioned above by another poster, these results indicate that having a knife is a disadvantage, not an advantange. Strange I say.

MJ

[ChrisHein]

It is a funny world where a man with out a tool has the advantage over a man with a tool.

[Dirk Hanss]

It is a funny world where a man with out a tool has the advantage over a man with a tool.Hi Chris,
it might 'walk' a little bit off topic, but my view is that it is a funny world, where a man without intention has an advantage over a man with fixed intention. That is hard enough for many of us to believe.

And the tool bears the risk to fix ones intention - at least to use or keep the tool, which could have the negative effect.

After long training you might get over it and see the knife only as one eligible tool out of your complete tool set (arms, legs,and mind!). Then this tool is really an additional advantage.

Then you might understand, why many aikidoka, facing two armed opponents, takes the first one, gains his knife and throws it away to take care of the next one ;)

Wise and experienced aikidoka would keep it as long as it is useful, but do not try to stick to it, while it is not useful any longer.


Regards Dirk

P.S.: I would still keep it due to lack of my aikido skills ;)

[Ketsan]

Funny. We also do a drill where "uke" (with knife) can attack in any manner he chooses (below the neck), and "nage" (sans knife) seeks to apply technique, which could be deflecting, grabbing, evading, throwing, whatever he deems appropriate. Uke "wins" 95% of the time. No one's been killed yet though!

Do you feel having a knife put you at a disadvantage?

Just to reiterate, the video that started this thread was not tanto dori per se, but you should make a video of your tanto dori, and post it. I'd like to see what you're doing.

That is funny. I'll see what I can do about getting a video of what we do posted.

[Ketsan]

Do you feel having a knife put you at a disadvantage?

Not really because it functions as a wrist grab and no way is tori going to simply let go and allow uke to freely use their tanto hand. The disadvantage is that after the initial attack uke is always one technique behind tori and always in a position of having to try and maintain or regain their balace. Tori on the other hand has their balance and is free to react to whatever uke does. In effect there is no knife after the first attack, until the end when you
So, to go back to the orginal question, if uke can maybe put some atemi in or otherwise disrupt tori's flow he can still use his taken hand to take the inititve and the majority of uke's wins are down to this kind of thing.

[ChrisHein]

Hi Dirk,
I hope that after long training you will come to understand the serious implications a tool (knife gun sword etc.) brings into physical conflict. Maybe soldiers in wars should simply arm themselves with their "arms legs and minds" ;) I think you are a little confused about what a weapon can do to a human body as compared to a fist or foot.

[Toby Threadgill]

You know...

I hesitate to to comment of stuff like this but I wonder how many people here have been properly trained in using a knife and how many have really been in a life threatening knife fight? I am trained in tanto jutsu and train extensively in defending against a knife attack. I have also been the victim of a serious knife assault. I disarmed the attacker by breaking his arm but was severly cut in the process. I'm very lucky to still have complete use of my right hand. It could just as easily have gone the other way with me being killed. That's the simple truth of it.

The knife weilding attacker, if trained in the proper use of a knife always has the advantage....ALWAYS. To believe otherwise is sheer fantasy.

Respects,

[Tim Fong]

Alex you do realize that a knife wielder can throw fakes to off balance the opponent right?

[Michael Varin]

Hey Toby,

Thanks for posting your story. I'm sorry it happened, but glad you made it. A lot of people need to open their eyes to the damage that even a small knife can do.

One of my favorite quotes fits well in this discussion.

"You are bound to meet misfortune if you are unarmed because, among other reasons, people despise you...There is simply no comparison between a man who is armed and one who is not." -- Niccolo Machiavelli

[Ketsan]

Alex you do realize that a knife wielder can throw fakes to off balance the opponent right?

Yup. Uke isn't just there to deliver an attack and be thrown, they're there to use every trick they can think off to get a cut or a stab in and faints are most certainly used and even the slightest contact with the tanto is classed as uke winning.
Remember also this isn't something we're meant to be doing, this is something that picked up at a martial arts event when we were told to take a tanto and fight until someone won. We got frowned upon by senior Aikidoka for doing it at the time and even our own instructor doesn't let us do it. So it's something we do once in a blue moon out of the way of prying eyes so that we don't get in trouble for it.
The upside of that is that it's not really bound up with Aikido norms, it's just two people with a tanto messing around.

[Ketsan]

You know...

I hesitate to to comment of stuff like this but I wonder how many people here have been properly trained in using a knife and how many have really been in a life threatening knife fight? I am trained in tanto jutsu and train extensively in defending against a knife attack. I have also been the victim of a serious knife assault. I disarmed the attacker by breaking his arm but was severly cut in the process. I'm very lucky to still have complete use of my right hand. It could just as easily have gone the other way with me being killed. That's the simple truth of it.

The knife weilding attacker, if trained in the proper use of a knife always has the advantage....ALWAYS. To believe otherwise is sheer fantasy.

Respects,


Been in three knife fights.

[CNYMike]

Hey guys,
I'm the other guy in the video I guess I'm the "big fellow". The idea of the drill is to train both the grabbing and the knife useing side. It is not a fair drill, but it's also not competitive, so it doesn't matter that it's one sided. Also the drill doesn't start till one person has a secure grab, as this lets us focus on the escapes and techniqual aspects of Aikido instead of the parts you normally see trained in standard jiyu waza ..... Please don't look at this as a Knife fight, or a Tanto Dori, or any other such, it's only a randori with a knife.




That's fair enough. I do the same thing, do some irimi tenkan exercises with a wooden knife in each hand. The point is not so much to do knife technique as to reinforce the cncept of the tegatana o "hand sword;" having a balde in each hand not only gets in the idea that you're "cutting" with you hand. Also the idea that both hands should be "live," instead of one hangining like a limp noodle. I now I'm not oing goodknife tecniqu; 'm just using the knives to help with some Aikido basics. A suBtle distinction.

So not a bad idea, as far as a drill is concerned.

[ChrisHein]

Been in three knife fights.

You just went from having an ounce of credibility with me, to about zero. You do this practice you are speaking of "in secret" so you don't "get in trouble"???? Are you 15? You should simmer down and let the grown ups talk for a bit.

[Ketsan]

You just went from having an ounce of credibility with me, to about zero. You do this practice you are speaking of "in secret" so you don't "get in trouble"???? Are you 15? You should simmer down and let the grown ups talk for a bit.


Please understand, in our organisation just about any deviation from the norm will cost you a grading. Last year I was interested on going to a course run by a certain instructor. Now this instructor has a reputation for being

[Ketsan]

Accidently posted.



Please understand, in our organisation just about any deviation from the norm will cost you a grading. Last year I was interested on going to a course run by a certain instructor. Now this instructor has a reputation for being more martial that most and I assume that is why he seems to be less popular with senior instructors. Anyway, I was intending to go on his course but was asked not to go by my instructor because it would cause trouble and jeopardise
my next grading. This is the situation we work in.
If the exercise I'm talking about was a long standing Aikido exercise or had been created by an Aikidoka we'd be ok up to a certain point but it's a Kung Fu exercise that we picked up at a fund raising seminar and even then our instructor was asked "who taught them that" in reference to us by a more senior instructor who was not in the least bit happy at what he saw.
We don't want to risk a years worth of grading prep only to be failed because we're using a Kung Fu knife defence exercise to do full resistance training, so we keep things quiet. Please don't get personal or blow things out of proportion.

[deepsoup]

Please don't get personal or blow things out of proportion.

He isn't. He's quite right, and if I were you I'd stop digging.

[Jonathan]

Hey, Chris:


The idea of the drill is to train both the grabbing and the knife useing side.

Why train yourself to grab at someone threatening you with a knife? I've mentioned already why this might not be a good idea. Besides, didn't you say the drill starts after you've been grabbed? Did you mean that you train to hold the person with the knife? What other knife drills do you practice?

From what I saw, the "knife using side" of the exchange seemed largely unfamiliar with knife fighting. Do you guys train in how to fight with a knife?

Also the drill doesn't start till one person has a secure grab, as this lets us focus on the escapes and techniqual aspects of Aikido instead of the parts you normally see trained in standard jiyu waza.

Yeah, that's what I thought you'd said. You do grab before you start this drill. Anyway, what technical aspects of Aikido were you focusing on in this drill? I didn't see much in the way of relaxation, nor any moving with the attacker's energy and leading it. These things are fundamental to Aikido, so what kind of Aikido are you practicing that neglects these things?

I have talked at length on Aikiweb many times of my oppinions of Aikido as a weapons system. I believe the techniques of Aikido are (mostly) designed to deal with a guy who trys to restrain your weapon hand. If you look you can see Mike useing Nikkyo several times to free his knife hand and stab me. We are attempting to train the techniques against resistance, as most Aikidoka will freeze up when the face resistance for the frist time, we are trying to train that out of ourselves.

Interesting...Why do you resort so much to struggling and wrestling with each other? I know from experience that there are other better, more Aikido-like ways to deal with the situation you're training in (I've hinted at those ways a couple of times already).

-Christopher Hein
p.s. Jonathan, if you don't worrie about the knife you will be cut much more, if you don't believe me, you should come to our dojo, and we'll go a few minutes and see how you do.

I think I'd do all right,Chris. I'm no expert, but I think if I came to your dojo I'd be able to help you alot with your knife training. Certainly, I could show you a faster, better, and less strenuous way to defend against a knife. Hey, have you practiced against a double-knife attack? If you haven't, give it a try; it's alot of fun!

I suggest not focusing on the knife, but that isn't the same as ignoring it altogether. Generally, when faced with a knife people become preoccupied with the danger it represents. As a consequence, they don't have a mind free to creatively and effectively respond to whatever attack is launched. Really, the knife isn't the threat, is it? It's the person using the knife that you need to deal with. So, I have found that controlling the attacker is more important than trying to control the knife. If I neutralize the attacker, the knife ceases to be a threat. So, rather than focus on the knife and struggle with the hand that holds it, I slip past the knife attack, atemi, and apply a controlling measure to my attacker. Then, I take the knife away. Mind you, this is alot harder than it sounds.

Jon.

[ChrisHein]

Lets see if I can answer your questions in the order you presented them.

Why would you grab the weapon hand of someone using a weapon.
Well because if you don't control the weapon you will have the weapon used against you. Saving knocking your opponent out, you must control the weapon hand. If you do not control the weapon hand then even if you control the persons body, they will be able to use the weapon on you.

The knifer in the clip is using Aikido techniques to free himself, and attempt to control me. So I don't understand what you mean by unfamiliar with knife fighting. Michael Varin is a black belt in Aikido, an we both believe Aikido is a weapons system. If you mean Kali or any other knife system, then no, Michael is not trained in Kali or any other knife system that I'm aware of.

What aspect of Aikido were we focussing on?
Well What I was referring to, is most Jiyu waza in traditional Aikido focus's on blending before contact. This drill focus's on blending after contact is made, and more specifically what happens when the other guy is actively working against you.

You say you didn't' see much relaxation, or leading of the attackers energy and moving with it. Funny because when I look at the clip I see lots of it. No it doesn't look like you maybe used to seeing Aikido, because most of what people see when they see Aikido is one guy doing technique and the other guy going along with the technique. In this drill both guys are trying to work against each other. Neither is ever going along with what is being done to him. So yes to moments of leading the others energy are short, but this is because we are both at the same level. It's never easy to work with someone who is at the same level as you (when you are trying to work against them). If it were a clip of Michael or I working with a white belt it would look different still.

Why do I resort to so much wrestling and struggling?
Well because it's hard. Michael is a crafty fellow, and it's not easy for me to fool him so I can throw him. Maybe you can throw Michael easier then I can.....

I'm sure that you believe you have a better way to do everything, and you have an open invitation to come train with us sometime. I promise we won't be to rough on you.

As for my focus.
I agree that over focusing on the weapon is dangerous. But I don't believe I do that. I feel pretty open to what's around me. Maybe you should ask Michael how it is to work with me. He's done it many time, he can probably tell you if I'm preoccupied and uncreative.

So, rather than focus on the knife and struggle with the hand that holds it, I slip past the knife attack, atemi, and apply a controlling measure to my attacker. Then, I take the knife away.

That sounds pretty nice, but I have a hard time doing that against a skilled opponent who is trying to stop me from doing that.

[Basia Halliop]

I'm not particularly experienced and I haven't seen much tanto-dori, but I found it interesting (OK a bit weird) that each time they engaged, they started with the assumption that the unarmed guy had already got a grip on the armed guy's knife hand. I would have thought (??) that 'first part' that they skipped would be the most important, difficult, and dangerous part?

After reading the explanations it makes much more sense though -- I guess that just wasn't the point of this particular exercise.

[xuzen]

Another tanto dori vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d8a9q7sSYA&eurl=)

This vid has been posted here before. I would like to highlight that this vid is what I am familiar with on how to deal with tanto. Compare and contrast with the approach taken by ChrisH and MichaelV.

Maybe it is just different flavouring? But I still prefer the method in this video. There will never be a right or wrong answer.

Boon.

[Jonathan]

Hello again, Chris.

So, you grab the hand holding the knife in order to prevent being cut with the knife. Okay. But if you attempt to do this in real life you will get your hand and arm cut. Why, then, would you practice with the weapon hand already grabbed? Like Basia H. said, this seems to be a practice that removes a very important and very difficult part of dealing with someone wielding a knife, namely, getting to the hand that holds the knife unscathed. Perhaps you deal with this in some other drill?

Through a fair bit of practice with knife attacks it has become apparent to me that controlling the knife hand should happen at the same time as one gains control of the attacker. It makes things much more difficult to first wrestle with the knife hand and then attempt to move against the attacker.

We practice against uncooperative ukes in our knife defense training, too, but it is understood in this practice that uke only works against you when you give him something to work against. You wrote, "Neither is ever going along with what is being done to him" and then remark that moments of leading your partners energy are consequently short. I thought the idea in Aikido was to blend, to harmonize, to redirect aggressive energy, not "work against" your partner as you describe.

No, I don't believe I have a better way to do everything. Not hardly. I'm pretty blunt in my posts, here, but that is more a factor of not having much time to post than of thinking I know everything.

I said that you looked overly focused on the knife because for much of the exchange on the clip you have your hips pushed out behind you and your arms held at their full length. This is typical of people who are preoccupied with not getting cut. But the posture this focus prompts one to take -- the hips pushed way back posture -- prevents one from dealing effectively with one's attacker. You appeared to be trying to keep your body as far away from the knife as possible and so long as you do this you are unable to control your partner. Eventually, you stop doing this and move your body closer to your partner's and are then finally able to throw him.

Especially when dealing with knife attacks, I try to be careful not to impose control on my attacker. The slipping past the knife, the atemi, and the controlling of my attacker all happen in harmony with my attacker. It is difficult to do, but it is possible and so much easier, physically speaking, than what you appear to be doing in your vid clip.

But maybe you have drills that deal with the sort of thing I'm talking about?

[CNYMike]

Another tanto dori vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d8a9q7sSYA&eurl=)

This vid has been posted here before. I would like to highlight that this vid is what I am familiar with on how to deal with tanto. Compare and contrast with the approach taken by ChrisH and MichaelV.

Maybe it is just different flavouring? But I still prefer the method in this video. There will never be a right or wrong answer.

Boon.

Filipino Kali has a great many drills where one or both partners havea knife; on particlar sensitivity drill can be done empty-handed or with a knife or with a stick -- it chieves the same thing.

On the other hand, we also practice disarms. While not as spectacuarly loud as the nage in the other clip, te idea of gettig a shot in before the disarm attempt is a valid one.

Both types of traning have merit; ChrisH and MichaelV have described what they're doing as a drill and not, specifically, a knife technique. Of course, you and your partner put on a pair of safety goggles, pick up rubber knives, and go at it, and you don't do anything that looks lik eithr category. And the reality is that when attacked with a knife, you will be cut -- you just want to minimize he damage.

But that doesn't mean that the methodology in ether clip is "wrong," just serving different purposes.

[ChrisHein]

Nice clip Boon,
But that is a cooperative practice, and that is also tanto dori (knife taking). I got what you are saying, what we are doing looks very different then that. The reason is because what we are doing is noncooperative, and because we are not doing tanto dori.

Mr. Hay,
I believe that the techniques of Aikido focus on the guy with the weapon, and not the guy who is unarmed (i.e. Aikido techniques are designed to use when you are armed and no the other way around). I know this is different then what you think of Aikido, but that is the way we practice at our dojo. So if you have a weapon, one of the major problems you may run into is someone controlling your knife hand. As I said before, it is a free practice, but if there was a focus it is on the guy with the knife doing technique (clearly making it the opposite of a tanto dori), it simply has the benefit of teaching the other guy to hold an armed attacker.

Personally Mr. Hay, I don't know you, so I can't speak to your ability, maybe you have far more ability in this aria then I do. However I have trained and fought mixed martial arts, and I have fought with the dog brothers. My experience with a trained attacker trying to resist my efforts, points to this being the right direction for me to pursue. Most of what you are saying, to me, sounds like it comes from someone who has not experienced much resistance, but I've been wrong before.

[xuzen]

Nice clip Boon,
But that is a cooperative practice, and that is also tanto dori (knife taking). I got what you are saying, what we are doing looks very different then that. The reason is because what we are doing is noncooperative, and because we are not doing tanto dori.

OK, got it ChrisH. As I say I am unfamiliar with the type of grappling with tanto type of drills you showed on the clip. But then, IMO, I would be very cautious with grappling with an armed opponent. I will leave you be and thanks again for contributing to this thread.

Boon.

[Michael Varin]

Non-cooperative tanto dori (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KAbbKRhnN4&NR)

As you can see, grabbing the wrist and trying to to grapple with a knife wielding assailant is not the brightest of idea, IMO. To me, it is very risky, as the chances of getting cuts is just to prohibitive.

I have some thoughts wrt to better ways to deal with such scenario (empty hand wise), but I reserve my judgement till I hear more opinion from other posters.

Another tanto dori vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d8a9q7sSYA&eurl=)

This vid has been posted here before. I would like to highlight that this vid is what I am familiar with on how to deal with tanto. Compare and contrast with the approach taken by ChrisH and MichaelV.

Maybe it is just different flavouring? But I still prefer the method in this video. There will never be a right or wrong answer.That the first clip is not a demonstration of tanto dori has already been addressed, but there is still much to compare and contrast. Despite nage's efforts to make this look "real" this is cooperative, and most likely choreographed. If you are unable to see that uke in this clip is allowing himself to be thrown, while Chris and I are constantly counteracting each others attempts to apply technique, you have probably never trained against the kind of resistance we are talking about. Words like "uncooperative" and "resistance" can mean different things to different people. The way we use them is to describe a situation where uke/nage roles do not exist, and we seek to achieve our objective while not allowing the other person(s) to achieve theirs within the parameters of the exercise.

If I were to attack nage from the second clip in an uncooperative fashion, things would look very different. He would be "cut" and "stabbed" numerous times before successfully applying his techniques, AND my lack of ability with a knife has already been exposed on the internet! ;)
From what I saw, the "knife using side" of the exchange seemed largely unfamiliar with knife fighting. Do you guys train in how to fight with a knife?In all seriousness, if anyone has tanto dori practices that they believe are highly effective, please share. I would love to see video of them.

[DonMagee]

I read a lot of the old "I will never fail in my technique" aikido in some of the posts in this thread. The assumption that you will avoid the knife, disarm, then pin all while looking pretty is very funny to me. Sure in a perfect world it is going to work that way but things happen, and the video displayed is just a situation drill.

In bjj we do armbar drills, we do armbar escape drills, and we do armbar counter to the escape drills. You might see me start with an armbar and let them start to escape so I can work the counter, then reset over and over. Would you say "Why don't you start by trying to get the armbar, that's the hardest part?", but that would not be the point of the drill. It's obvious to me that the point of the drill shown was to practice working from after you grabbed, but you were not able to immediately disarm, throw, or pin. Seems like a good idea to me. And yes, it did not look perfect. If it did why even bother training it? We are human, we can only peruse perfection.

So cut the guy some slack, this is still an important drill in my mind if you are serious about martially using aikido. I'm sure this is just one of many drills they train if they are seriously pursuing this avenue of training. And regardless of what any one has to say, the movements were real and not contrived. That makes it better then 99% of the aikido video's out there.

[L. Camejo]

Don has a point. Folks need to learn to differentiate between a drill, an exercise, sparring and all out combat. From this thread it seems some are missing this.

Another observation I've made of this thread that I also see when cross training and travelling to different schools is the confusion between what is natural/real and what has become a conditioned "natural" response. In this case it is where the FMA folks and their like, though extremely effective in using a knife as a weapon, tend to approach training to use the knife from a situation of blade on blade, duel type combat. This causes them to believe (and rightly so with a skilled FMA person involved) that certain things simply "will not be done/allowed by a skilled knife fighter", e.g. allowing one to easily get hold of the knife or knife hand. They are of course correct, in an FMA sense and this has probably been the case on the streets of the Philippines and Indonesia where these systems were being developed. These guys will cut most people (skilled or unskilled) to ribbons before they even realise.

However the "average untrained joe" in the West may not use a knife in this manner and may allow a host of things that a trained FMA knife fighter will never do. However the question becomes "what is the probability that I will face a serious attack by a trained knife fighter while going about my daily business?" In some places the answer is a "very high probability" but in cultures where the gun or another weapon may be more regularly used this may not be the case. As such one will find oneself in a situation where an attacker (or his pal more likely) may grab your knife hand to control you long enough for his pal to brain you with a 2x4, iron pipe or baseball bat. Reality does not follow the rules determined by any one or any martial art/fighting method.

From my own experience (attacks on others, not myself) and in my work with Police most knife attacks in the West appear to be the prison-type shanking or quick, repeated, close range stabbing/jabbing type attacks. One hardly if ever sees the swinging slash from anyone who really wants to knife a victim. Also, the knife is most times concelaed until the very last instant or often never revealed. From Police reports I have seen, when the knife is shown to the victim it is often as a threatening measure to gain some sort of psychological/physical leverage, but most times the person who shows the knife is unwilling to actually use it, else he would have done so already. Knife fighters ambush people as someone else said here. The 2 knife fighters squaring off, blades bared is not common in most places on this side of the world from my experience, hence one needs to address this if training for this sort of reality.

So regarding the drills by Chris and Michael I think they serve a great purpose in learning weapon retention if you are a knife user, especially if using the knife coming from an Aikido or tantojutsu type paradigm. In this case, there is a good possibility that if one draws a blade the arm can be grabbed (like I said oftentimes not by the person you are focussing on). If one is not prepared to deal with the grab or other attacks designed to negate/bypass the weapon there is a good chance that the weapon will be relinquished and one will be killed with one's own knife. It is the same reason that LEO and others practice handgun retention techniques and drills today because people sometimes do weird things, like try to take away one's gun at close range. The same goes for a blade or any other weapon. Getting to the point on dedicated attacks in Aikido, the average person who is trying to stop your knife from cutting them or trying to get it away tends to have quite a strong death grip on, precisely what Aikido waza likes best.;)

Just my 5 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

[Rod Yabut]

Another tanto dori vid

This vid has been posted here before. I would like to highlight that this vid is what I am familiar with on how to deal with tanto. Compare and contrast with the approach taken by ChrisH and MichaelV.

Maybe it is just different flavouring? But I still prefer the method in this video. There will never be a right or wrong answer.

If I could ad a penny to Larry's comments above, check out some Systema type knife take aways. Just like someone on this post mentioned, I've messed around with it too, starting very slowly and then going progressively faster. Even when you know the attack, its still gets intense at full speed since elements of random body movement comes into play.

[Jonathan]

Hey, Chris and Mike.

Just to be clear: I get "cut" regularly in practicing freestyle defense against a knife attack. Part of the way I learn what does and doesn't work. I'm under no illusions about getting away totally unscathed in an all-out knife attack. But I've done enough defense work against a knife now to see that "going with the flow" really is an extremely effective (albeit initially difficult) way to defend myself. My knife defense training always involves alot of atemi, too.

Mike, if you want to see some great knife defense work check out Systema vid clips. Much of what I do in knife defense training incorporates Systema movement, tactics and striking methods.

[Brion Toss]

Have any of you seen the Dog Brothers' recent video covering attacks with knife and pistol? Much there that is adaptable to/reminiscent of Aikido. I have spoken with two police officer Aikidoka over the years who have survived knife attacks, and they mentioned other officers and prison guards, so perhaps Mr. Harden hasn't seen everything ...
Shouldn't this thread be in the 'Weapons' forum?
Regards,
Brion Toss

[ChrisHein]

Everything "should" be in the weapons forum.

[SeiserL]

Have any of you seen the Dog Brothers' recent video covering attacks with knife and pistol?
Big fan of the Dog Brothers. Highly recomend a sneak and peek.

[Ed Stansfield]

In this case it is where the FMA folks and their like, though extremely effective in using a knife as a weapon, tend to approach training to use the knife from a situation of blade on blade, duel type combat. This causes them to believe (and rightly so with a skilled FMA person involved) that certain things simply "will not be done/allowed by a skilled knife fighter", e.g. allowing one to easily get hold of the knife or knife hand. They are of course correct, in an FMA sense...

I have no experience of FMA, or indeed of knife use in general apart from in my kitchen and in tanto-dori. However, I do play Go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28board_game%29) a bit, and the "will not / cannot be done" situation arises quite alot there. When people with a bit of experience are playing, there will quite often be groups of stones that both players will agree are "alive" or "dead" without having to play out the full sequence of moves that would make them so. Equally, there can be territory that, to an observer, might appear open and "up for grabs" but an experienced player will know that the other player has full control of it and there are no openings. Of course, to a large extent, whether stones are alive or dead, or whether territory can be successfully invaded may depend on the difference in skill between the players. If you think that you're more skillful than the other player, you can play it out and, since its only a board game, the consequences aren't too horrendous.

Anyway, my point was that in so far as there are certain starting assumptions that people of similar skill might make about whether particular tactics will work, there are parallels with MA training.

Back to the scheduled discussion...

Best,

Ed

[Kevin Leavitt]

Good example and interesting perspective Ed. I have never thought about things quite this way. I will be using this as an example for now one! Thanks for the wisdom!

[L. Camejo]

Anyway, my point was that in so far as there are certain starting assumptions that people of similar skill might make about whether particular tactics will work, there are parallels with MA training.Ed is correct. This is seen a lot in Kendo matches between high ranks where there is hardly any attacking but the majority of the match is taken up with minute adjustments in ma ai and an attempt to get a minuscule tactical advantage on the other player to launch a decisive stroke and win. To the untrained eye one would wonder why no one is attacking, but in the minds of both players the attacks are executed and defended without the need to "play it out" as Ed says.

However there are also the skilled and deceptive few who are able to use these assumptions against the skilled attacker and feign "lack of skill" and do something to invite an attack that places the other in the perfect place for a winning/killing stroke depending on the situation. The difference here with the Go example is that the rules of Go or chess for example are set and one can only move in certain ways, this law does not apply to the strategic or tactical creativity that can be expressed in arts like Aikido etc. meaning that it will be difficult for one to see all possible outcomes of a particular action. The way we do tanto randori this concept is often used to get an edge on the tanto wielder. However this has nothing to do with the exercise in the video which is not tanto randori, but more like tanto retention practice.

Of course the assumptions made by a "trained" individual may not be made by the totally untrained but nevertheless skilled aggressor. We see this often when street fights occur between martial artists and folks with no "official" training but know how to use focused aggression just from fighting a lot.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

[mikebalko]

As far as the knife holder being at a disadvantage in this context(where the other guy has a grip on the wrist already) the guy without the knife has the advantage when it comes to joint locks. It is much easier to apply them when the other guy is holding something in his hand as opposed to when he has a closed clenched fist. The arm is much weaker when holding a knife because you can't contract the muscles the same way.
The guy holding the wrist should be striking and kicking at this distance though, not attempting to to lock/throw. The guy with the the knife should be doing the same and not just with the knife hand.
The term "skilled knife attacker" isn't quite accurate when making reference to feints and non lethal blows, as in a cut or stab that will not kill the defender or stop his ability to do anything else like escape or get enough distance to draw a weapon of his own. At this point the knifer would have given away his advantage of a longer reach and the ability to do more damage with his attacks. In this video the knifer has done just that, he is within range of kicks and strikes.If you want the guy holding the wrist to be able to do throws more often have the wrist holder stand outside of range of a kick( traditional aikido maai for gyaku katate dori) or much closer,like almost body to body/a clinch where striking doesn't work because even if the guy without a weapon lands a shot it will be to weak to have any effect.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I spend like 90 percent of my time in training my soldiers in basic ground grappling and clinch range stuff. Until they get a handle on it, we don't even discuss weapons.

They get comfortable with the basics of grappling and a little cocky actually.

Then we inject weapons and I let them play with them without any instruction on the use to see instinctually what they will do.

It is amazing to watch them commit to using them too soon in some circumstances. Once you arm yourself with a knife or gun in a close fight, that hand is now committed to that weapon. It is no longer free to do anything other than maintain control over that weapons or employ it.

In many circumstances, it isolates that hand and limits many choices that you may have without that weapon. This is especially true with handguns as they are useless until you have established dominance or range. Knifes in a close fight have more flexibility, but still can isolate options in certain situations.

It is amazing to FEEL the KI shift, if you will, from the center of the fight, to the knife wielding hand. In some respects that shift in energy and focus benefits the knife wielder, in some respects it does not as a more skilled guy, gainign control of the knife hand, can move around the center and exploit areas that are not in the focus.

Once dominance is gained by the non-knife holder, the knife holder is COMPLETELY neutralized and must focus all his energy in controlling that weapon....he cannot work on escaping the dominant position as he must focus KI/energy/effort on maintaining immediate control of the knife.

The Key to knives is stealth. Pulling it and using it at the right time and place. Striking quick and fast, and avoiding the clinch takedown. If you are in the clinch or in grappling mode, pulling it fast, using it, and then exploiting the moment that the strike gives you to escape.

Obviously, situationally, many, many factors come into play. The Dog Brothers do a good job of training this stuff., if you want to see the correct way to train, IMO

...however, you can't train like this everyday...at least I can't!

[SeiserL]

The Key to knives is stealth.
IMHO, there are no knife attacks, only ambush and assassinate.

Agreed, once some one grabs a weapon, they tend to forget about everything else they have at their disposal.

Love the Dogs.

[ChrisHein]

"There are no knife attacks, only ambush and assassinate"

This is a pretty bold statement there Lynn.

What happens when I ambush or assassinate one fellow, but don't see his buddy who comes to his aid? Can I only make an attack with a knife when they don't know I'm coming. Would I have to run from his buddy, so I could take him from the shadows.

What about when an angry teenager picks up a kitchen knife to take out his rage on a parent or friend. The second they pick up the knife, do they have to wait in the corner till no one is looking.

Knifes are tools, used like all others; when they are necessary. Granted, the best and safest way for me to use a knife on a person I want to get rid of, is in fact to ambush them, but that's not always an option. Further more it might not be my motive (to kill someone in secret). I might want the attention I get from wielding a knife, like might be seen from a crazy person, or a scared mugger.

If you plan to use a weapon, you need a method of retaining that weapon. Our school believes that Aikido's techniques are designed to do just that; keep your weapon. And this is what you are seeing in this video.

We are not kicking or punching because that's not part of this drill. This is not an all out fight, it's simply an uncooperative randori.

-Christopher
p.s. Lynn, I fought with the dog brothers, and at the meetings of the pack they conduct their knife fighting practices in the open, one on one (usually). They don't hide in the rafters of the building waiting to ambush each other.

[xuzen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TkbbBSDSls&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebullshido%2Enet%2Fforums%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Fp%3D138487 5

Look at this clip, especially at 2'07"to 2'17. I believe they are ShodoThugs [TM], I see a beautiful REAL Uncooperative Tanto Randori. Way to go ShodoThugs! It is avery well executed RAN-DORI sequence IMO.

Just a side track... at the beginning of this clip, the tori, he looks like Jacques Payet to me, anyone can comfirm this?

Boon.

[deepsoup]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TkbbBSDSls&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebullshido%2Enet%2Fforums%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Fp%3D138487 5

Look at this clip, especially at 2'07"to 2'17. I believe they are ShodoThugs [TM]

Yep, that little section is definitely Shodokan. The little snippet of toshu randori they do after the tanto stuff is very nice too. :)

[SeiserL]

"There are no knife attacks, only ambush and assassinate" This is a pretty bold statement there Lynn.
Chris,
IMHO, it wasn't meant to be a bold statement, just a useful distinction.

[George S. Ledyard]

Chris,
IMHO, it wasn't meant to be a bold statement, just a useful distinction.

This is somewhat cultural. If you live in a "knife" culture like the Philippines or Indonesia, guys actually do knife fighting as a form of dueling.

But in our culture an edged weapons attack is almost always spontaneous and takes place either as an ambush or in the heat of an already on-going fight, one or the other accesses a previously hidden weapon. Most (the vast majority) are stabbed before they ever even know it's a knife fight.

The one exception is in domestic violence cases in which someone grabs a knife that is handy, usually in the kitchen. Then the defender usually has some warning that it's an edged weapons situation.

[SeiserL]

This is somewhat cultural. If you live in a "knife" culture like the Philippines or Indonesia, guys actually do knife fighting as a form of dueling.
My two biggest influences are the military and FMA.
(Okay, and Detroit before that.)

[Ron Tisdale]

His posture and movement really look like Payet Sensei...I think that is him, but can't be sure.

Best,
Ron

[Kevin Leavitt]

I tend to side with Lynn for the most part concerning my experiences in dealing with knifes and frankly these are the ones that concern me the most and the most dangerous.

Chris Hein, brings up some very good points though. It is not always the case that someone pulls a knife and intends to use it. It becomes a leverage point or a powerplay to gain space or control, The overall intent, at least at that point is NOT to use it other than to gain control or space.

Motive for these individuals might be a multitude of reasons.

In domestic situations it might be emotional control or space. They may decide to use it if pushed over the edge by an emotional trigger.

A mugger using a knife uses it to create space and control to gain something from you, usually money. at that point and time he does not want to use it, he wants the space and control that it affords to get your money. The trigger that pushes him to use it might be fear of loss of that control, or emotion. It could be irrationality as well steming from whatever, (I am not a psychologist,, sorry).

Either way, this presents a dilemea for you. Do you comply and give him the space and actual or perceived control of the situation and de-escalate the situation if possible. de-escalation may be running, or maybe handing him your wallet, or talking him down.

OR

Do you push forward and escalate the situation hopefully on your terms.

Escalation would occur if you have a percieved advantage of some kind that allows you to perceive you can "take him". It might be you have a gun, taser, pepper spray, knife, or you honestly feel you can take him empty handed for whatever reason.

Situational factors such as his position obviously come into play. That is, what if he closed the distance already and has you unbalanced from behind with the knife held at throat? (this would be an successful ambush).

Philosophically speaking, I'd say that if the guy really has you fixed in a position with a knife where he has successfully closed distance to an effective range of utilization, then that to me, constitutes an successful ambush. (Unless of course, you knowingly LET him come into that range with the weapon, and that would not be an ambush, but a "what were you thinking!" moment) :)

Note that in all these digits no mention of techniques like kotegaeshi or aikido whatsoever!

So how does aikido prepare you to deal with these situations? I think through the general study of budo of being prepared to face fear maybe with hopefully calmness of mind.

What is the probability that you will escape the situation unharmed. I have no idea how you can account for this with all the variables, from skill with weapon, to positional distance, to emotional/mental state and motive of the indivdual.

However, once the fight has started, doesn't matter what you call it, ambush or not....it is the same situation at that point. He has successfully closed distance, fixed you, and now you must figure out how to deal with that weapon.

SO, training wise....

I think it is good to learn and practice budo for the sake of budo.

I think it is good to practice knifes from the effective fighting range at the point that the individual has close distance and attacked you from a multitude of situations. standing, equal, behind you, and on the ground.

the discouraging point of all this is how bad you will fair in these situations regardless of how much you practice!

[ChrisHein]

If you get the message that is being sent in the techniqual froms, you will almost always be armed. That should help when faceing an armed attacker.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Chris, not following you, you are saying you should always be armed?

If so, obviously it helps in the right circumstances, however, it is still possible for you to be armed and to NOT be able to use it or reach it for a multitude of reasons.

we could "what if" this all day long though!

[SeiserL]

the discouraging point of all this is how bad you will fair in these situations regardless of how much you practice!
IMHO, one goes to the hospital and one goes to the morgue.

[ChrisHein]

Chris, not following you, you are saying you should always be armed?

If so, obviously it helps in the right circumstances, however, it is still possible for you to be armed and to NOT be able to use it or reach it for a multitude of reasons.

we could "what if" this all day long though!

I'm not talking about "what ifs"

I was being a bit of a smart ass though. I was alluding to the fact that I think Aikido techniques are designed for weapons retention, and not for unarmed fighting. Aikido's techniques teach you how to get at, use, and keep your weapon. They don't teach you how to fight one on one (or heaven for bid more then one on one) while unarmed.

Aikido techniques are very ineffective, and I would say many of them are useless, unarmed. But if you look at the system as a weapons retention system, they work like a charm.

So the message the technical syllabus teaches you is to always be armed....why do you think uke is always grabbing nage's wrist...

Lynn,
you are whipping out these one-liners like a Chinese fortune cookie factory.

[L. Camejo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TkbbBSDSls&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebullshido%2Enet%2Fforums%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Fp%3D138487 5

Look at this clip, especially at 2'07"to 2'17. I believe they are ShodoThugs [TM], I see a beautiful REAL Uncooperative Tanto Randori. Way to go ShodoThugs! It is avery well executed RAN-DORI sequence IMO.

Boon.Boon,

You find the best vids. Dr. Loi's waza is just sooo crisp in both the kata and randori parts of the Shodothug clips. Makes one feel all warm and fuzzy inside.:D I could just imagine what would happen if that Uke went all out with those tanto strikes.

Regarding limitations to Aikido training and waza re: tanto I think the only limitations that exist are what the individual places on ones own potential ability and creativity. One can never completely control all the variables in an any conflict, but one can control oneself. When your empty hands may be the only thing you have and the proverbial hits the fan it may surprise one what weapons of flesh and bone may be capable of. In an instant all the "mental masturbation and what if-ing" gives way to the obvious, which can go in a few different directions depending on a variety of factors.

However if one trains assuming that any goal is impossible to achieve then it will be without a doubt.

Kevin said - it is still possible for you to be armed and to NOT be able to use it or reach it for a multitude of reasons.This is so true and is often even moreso when one is the vitcim of a well-executed ambush. Being armed and being able to bring arms to bear in many situations can be a luxury many may not be able to afford.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

[KIT]

Aikido techniques are very ineffective, and I would say many of them are useless, unarmed. But if you look at the system as a weapons retention system, they work like a charm.

So the message the technical syllabus teaches you is to always be armed....why do you think uke is always grabbing nage's wrist...



I believe there is a lot to what Chris is saying.

But first we have to start be defining perspectives. It should be clear in reading some of the responses on this thread, that what people think is "uncooperative" and what people think is "good" (meaning, apparently, realistic) knife defense have very different standards, and reveal a lot about where they may be coming from in light of dealing with a knife. It is also the reason there is so much conflicting information about dealing with knife attacks in the martial arts and combatives community.

Lynn's and George's points are far, far closer to what happens most often.

Back to Chris's quote - certainly when there is a focus on a weapon, or retaining it, all sorts of locks and joint-lock projections start appearing. I've trained combatives with an aikidoka whose abilities in the clinch improved considerably once we started introducing weapons - training knives and simuntion guns - into the mix. It gave me pause and more respect for what aikido has to offer. As has also been stated, BJJ with weapons introduced starts developing all sorts of very koryu-esque controls and pins. Things that open up when the guy has a knife.

Has to be trained the right way, though, and don't ever assume that having a weapon means a weapon fixation is inevitable. More on that later.

ANY inkling that an unarmed man has an advantage over one with a knife, even an untrained one, is dojo fantasy. Period. Not denigrating any person individually, but if you believe this, and if you teach it to students, you are endangering their lives.Time to re-think your approach.

Most martial arts approaches and responses to knife are dojo fantasy as well, to include from many of the arts already mentioned on this thread. Yup, even the Filipino stuff.

What separates reality from martial arts is what is neatly summed up with the terms "unequal initiative" and "asymmetric engagement." Some reading:

http://www.shivworks.com/mythproparm.asp

Go to Youtube and look for prison knifing videos. That's what you see in the streets, 'cuz guess where a lot of the guys who end up mugging you with a knife learn their stuff?

Responding to such an attack is another matter. FWIW, Chris is actually not far off reality, though the "pickup" is of critical importance, he just doesn't show one in that clip, he's starting "after."

Realize too, as George noted, that your pickup will most likely be late, probably after you've already been cut, because more often than not you won't even be aware a knife is in the mix unless the guy actually came up and mugged you with it - against your throat or pressed into your back, not waved at you from a comfortable distance. George is absolutely right, many people will tell you they first realize a blade was involved when they saw blood. Before that they thought they were just "getting punched." It is common, not at all unusual.

So, you have to integrate your knife defense with your flinch reflex/instinctive/default response training. IOW, what you do to deal with a sudden unarmed sucker punch, is what you'll do with a knife. There is no "do it one way with a knife, do it another with unarmed," because it is very likely you won't have the time or information to make the assessment. If you have that time, your response should be evasion/accessing a weapon of your own. But if you have done your flinch response and then realized he has a blade, the difference for the properly trained is in how quickly you can change it to control of the striking hand.

Remember too, that people will switch hands, they will use the off hand to control, strike and distract, they will flank your and try to get your back, all the while pumping that knife into your face, your gut, and whatever else you might leave open during the onslaught. They train it in jail, and they use it on each other, so train your knife defense accordingly.

Then there is deploying a weapon of your own. Just carrying one is of no effect if you can't produce it skillfully under confrontational dynamics.

You must train extensively in deploying your weapons. What does that mean? No, not with a wooden tanto slipped into your hakama. It means with the folder or fixed blade (or gun) that you wear on the street, in the clothing you wear on the street. Practice drawing it - quickly - from various positions. Spar/roll with a partner and practice drawing it without his fouling your draw or taking your weapon, or maybe without him even noticing. Then, practice him blitz attacking you, you controlling him enough to buy time and position to access your own.

Then give him a weapon too.

Control the weapon hand. Do not "ignore the weapon, fight the man." Control the weapon, fight the man. Striking is great so long as you gain/maintain control his weapon hand (or the muzzle). If he tries to take your weapon do not ignore the attempt and try to fight the man. Control his access to your weapon and fight the man.

Integrate your combatives platform.Your clinch work should blend into your knife and gun handling (and defense) which should blend with your striking. It promotes performance efficiency (when adrenalin is flowing) and saves time in a real world encounter. This is a problem for those who practice multiple and/or disparate martial systems with different flavors and don't "make them one" - it matters if you are training too many different ways or in ways which are incompatible.

Remember the thugs out there train with their weapon in only one carry position, the same one he carries it in every day, and from which he has experience drawing it in multiple actual assaults. This repetition of one way become critical when the distractions of a real fight are a factor.

Some more reading folks may find interesting:

http://www.shivworks.com/systemsapproach.asp

[xuzen]

Boon,

You find the best vids. Dr. Loi's waza is just sooo crisp in both the kata and randori parts of the Shodothug clips. Makes one feel all warm and fuzzy inside.:D I could just imagine what would happen if that Uke went all out with those tanto strikes.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Thanks Larry for your praise. I accept graciously. You know.... finding aikido video with alive RAN-DORI is like finding a needle in a haysack. If you do find one, one should keep it for posterity and future reference.

Err.. one more thing, is Dr Loi is a woman right. That makes her a Shodothugress?

OSSU!
Boon.

[SeiserL]

Lynn, you are whipping out these one-liners like a Chinese fortune cookie factory.
Actually, that would be a Fillipinio cookie factory.

One of the problems I see in the tradition tanto attacks is that they IMHO were designed for the knife as a secondary weapon aiming at targets that didn't have armor.

A while back we did an article for Black Belt on Aikido against the FMA five angles of attack. Sensei used one of my live blades.

I tend to use my one-liners as a gudeline for training. If prepared physically and mentally for the worst, you can probably handle what comes.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Lynn I like your one liners. I always see the wisdom in them.

Interesting point to about a secondary weapon. That is how I practice with knifes..as a secondary weapon.

[garry cantrell]

OK, time for my two cents. Great discussion about proper training and dealing with trained knife fighters and types of attacks and the like - but here's another perspective. My one and only (thank goodness) experience with a knife attack was with a guy who, as far as I could tell, had no training and gave no indication that he wanted to hurt me (or even that he found me mildly irritating) prior to trying to shove a butcher knife through my stomach. Geez, that was years ago. I lost a quarter sized hunk of skin off the end of my elbow. It was very fast, from very close range, and very unexpected. My response was clearly Aikido based (and expletive enhanced, if I remember correctly) but wouldn't have been confused with traditional tanto take away techniques. There's a point here somewhere. Maybe it's just that it's rare to be able to accurately predict real life applications. You train hard, as best you can, and enjoy the training.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Yes I agree with your assessment on training Garry. thanks for sharing that story!

[Tony Wagstaffe]

I trained in FMA/JKD with the late Ted Lucaylucay.

IMHO, a trained knife fighter never attacks, only ambushes.

From an Aikido perspective, work on footwork to get off the line/angle of attack and controlling the weapon while taking balance.

Cross-training is about the only way for this to make sense.

I would agree totally on that one Lynn!:straightf

[KIT]

Never mind, found out where they went....

[SeiserL]

I would agree totally on that one Lynn!
Okay, that's one. ;-)

[George S. Ledyard]

Actually, that would be a Fillipinio cookie factory.

One of the problems I see in the tradition tanto attacks is that they IMHO were designed for the knife as a secondary weapon aiming at targets that didn't have armor.

A while back we did an article for Black Belt on Aikido against the FMA five angles of attack. Sensei used one of my live blades.

I tend to use my one-liners as a guideline for training. If prepared physically and mentally for the worst, you can probably handle what comes.
Frankly, from a practical standpoint, the one place where the knife makes sense is as part of your weapons retention system. If you carry a firearm, you should have a tactical folder available that you carry on the opposite side from the gun. If you get in a grappling situation on the ground you try to get the gun underneath you so the assailant can't get at it. It's the off hand which accesses the knife. If you get jumped from behind, this is one of the few things that will work fast enough to save you from a choke. It allows you to still use your strong side hand to protect the firearm while the off side hand accesses the knife and goes to work on the choke. I trained a bit with Eric Remmen, a Hwang Rwang Do fellow, he actually carried three folders, one on each side low and one high in the neck of his vest. There was no grappling hold you could put him in where he could not access one of the three knifes. That's where a knife really makes sense, I think.

[CitoMaramba]

Actually, that would be a Fillipinio cookie factory.
.

Filipino cookies! Uraro (arrowroot) cookies immediately come to mind :)

Dangayan Singkaw incorporates an art called asut kampilan, the technique of drawing and cutting with the Filipino short sword.
It is similar to iaido / iaijutsu.

[divinecedar]

I understand that this is not pure Aikido, but it is non-cooperative tanto-dori. It is the 1st time I attempted it, but here you have it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiG6mIu15EE

[George S. Ledyard]

I understand that this is not pure Aikido, but it is non-cooperative tanto-dori. It is the 1st time I attempted it, but here you have it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiG6mIu15EE

I am not trying to be disrespectful of your efforts here but:
a) the attacker moves as if he is scared of you; if I'd had that knife I would have come at you like a cuisinart

b) put a choke on a guy with a knife before you have disarmed him and he'll open your arm up right along it's length and then move to your body

c) drop a guy like you did and stay in range he'll cut your femoral artery or take out all your tendons

d) anyone who knows what he is doing will strike with the off hand, you aren't paying any attention to that opening and your partner isn't using it

If a guy has a knife and you cannot escape, then you go in without any hesitation, cover anything that would kill you if he hit it, and get in and tie him up, then proceed to render him unconscious. If he stabs you or cuts you, he only gets one. Dancing around as your are doing will result in getting so many cuts he can render you totally ineffective in short order.

Knife stuff is all about "irimi" in the end. You need to have your mind "inside" his attack and then put your body there. He only gets one shot to finish you.

[divinecedar]

Well, I appreciate the insight. I've never tried to do this before. What you are saying then is that instead of trying to evade the attack one should directly enter into it? Goes along the lines of a samurai not fearing death, am I correct? I am offended in no way and sincerely appreciate your comments.

[Chuck Clark]

George, I was moved to post similar points for this fellow and had to go to the dojo. If someone that was intent to cut and even half-way good with a knife was involved in that action it wouldn't have lasted long.

Please find someone that can help you learn good stuff or while you're getting some exercise you'll get into habits that may have you buying some rural real estate.

Sincerely,

[L. Camejo]

I have to agree with Chuck and George above.

The only thing I can add is that by stepping back in the case of a knife attack and not committing to a solid offline entry (irimi) that can control the weapon hand/side and minimize its effectiveness you are inviting a follow-up or combination of stabs/slashes that will render you useless to defend yourself in short order.

I'd like to reiterate these points George made, they are ery important:b) put a choke on a guy with a knife before you have disarmed him and he'll open your arm up right along it's length and then move to your body

c) drop a guy like you did and stay in range he'll cut your femoral artery or take out all your tendons

Finally at the times where you did grip the knife arm and failed to immediately follow up with a strike or technique you could have also gotten your wrist and inner arm cut repeatedly if the knife holder utilised turning motions of his hand or body while dragging the blade across your wrist/inner arm to break your grip.

Just my 2 cents. Resistance Tantodori isn't easy under any circumstance imho but one can develop "best practices" that minimize the dangers.

LC:ai::ki:

[divinecedar]

I'm going to start practicing in this fashion. This session was simply to really see what it was like. I've learned quite a bit on here and will apply it as soon as possible.

[George S. Ledyard]

Well, I appreciate the insight. I've never tried to do this before. What you are saying then is that instead of trying to evade the attack one should directly enter into it? Goes along the lines of a samurai not fearing death, am I correct? I am offended in no way and sincerely appreciate your comments.
Sort of... Certainly, if you are in avoidance mode and thinking defensively, the guy with the knife has such a distinct advantage that you'd only get out of it by an act of God.

Doing this kind of thing you have to have your mind right. You have to mentally "own" the space he wants to come into to attack you. This is an energetic thing and takes some practice.

You need to put your attention, your mind "inside" his attack. You are aware of the knife but your mental projection is straight to the guys center. Your mind is forward, your body is forward oriented, everything in your being is committed to going in.

Then, play with not letting him determine when he attacks. If you move into his space, he has two choices, either attack or back up. If he has strong intention to attack he will, the moment you start to close with him. If you are the one who decides when that moment is, rather than letting him do it, then there is really no reaction time. If you know when something is going to happen, then you don't react to it, you are causing it, and therefore there is no "reaction" time.

If, however, he backs up, that tells you something about his commitment. Keep going forward and then suddenly accelerate. You have the advantage because you have already caused his mind to retreat. He can still kill you of course because the knife is so inherently dangerous, but if you can back him up, his advantage is a fraction of what it was if you let him attack you and you try to "defend".

Just remember, the guy who is defending isn't winning. The only way to win is to attack. The Japanese phrase for this is "offense and Defense are one".

[MM]

Here's a short video of a knife flow drill:

http://www.albokalisilat.com/video4.html

An important part is the very last section where the drill is done in real time. The vid hasn't been sped up. A good knife fighter can cut you 6 times in one second, but it only takes one to kill you.

And, yes, this is where I'm training kali/silat.
http://www.albokalisilat.com

Mark

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Cody,
Lots of good advice so far. Another piece to training knife defense is to learn knife offense. Become comfortable with the knife. How to carry it, hide it, draw it, change hands with it, and use it fluidly. By learning how to use the knife you will learn the dangers and difficulty in defending against one. You will learn the openings that need to be addressed and hopefully a little bit of the mindset of the knifer. All of this is important when learning to defend. Plus, by learning the offense, you and your training partners will provide each other with harder and more realistic attacks to practice against.

Take care,

Mark J.

[divinecedar]

I'm really learning a lot. After watching the clip slowly you can pick up little things about the timing, body language and techniques that are really useful. If the community as a whole doesn't mind I will post another video later and see if there is an improvement and gain some more insight. Thanks for everything!

[ChrisHein]

Cody,
Here's my knife taking advice.

1. Don't, turn and run
2. If you can't avoid the fight. Have your buddy rush the knifer as fast as he can. while they are wrestling kick the knifer in the face.
3. If you don't have a buddy see 1.

You're doing a great job though. This kind of practice will make you better then most "shihan" before you know it.

[divinecedar]

I appreciate the encouragement! I also certainly agree with you...I don't want to tangle with anyone that has a knife (or anyone period for that matter).

[Michael Varin]

The attacker in Cory's video was obviously unskilled with a knife, and a bit worried about what was going to happen after he attacked, which probably hampered his creativity and tenaciousness. The young man said this was the first time he tried this, and still he put himself out there for everyone to see.

I would love to see Ledyard, or anyone else for that matter, post a video where he is engaged in uncooperative empty-hand v. tanto. A picture is worth a thousand words.

[ChrisHein]

Not gonna touch that huh...

[divinecedar]

I'm just trying to expand my abilities. I also feel that Aikido with resistance allows a person to determine the effectiveness of specific techniques in a situation and improves your timing. I've done it against a 6'7, 320 lb. untrained opponent and despite the lack of skill he was still hard to do anything with. I am far from highly skilled, but practice makes perfect and I'm glad to recieve input from other Aikidoka.