aikido vs muay thai sparring video

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[kocakb]

Aikido guy sparring with a Muay Thai guy...nice video, gives an idea of how we would react if we are attacked "irregular" (unknown type of attack).
IMHO, the aikido guy is not applying aikido principles (blocks attack, bad posture, linear instead of circular etc). It is easy to criticize and I think I would not be better if I were there, but it made me think that this must be the reason why aikido is not easy to learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cBg2tTCYL0

What are your opinions?

[ChrisMoses]

Cool video, thanks for the link. I'm guessing the aikido guy is from the European line of Yoseikan Aikibudo (based on the short sword kata they showed him doing, and what came out in the ring), which would explain some of the MMA and judo like moves that he used. Interesting that what seems to have worked best for the aiki-dude was the locks and leg shoots, when he tried to mirror the muay thai stuff he didn't fare as well.

Oh, and the meat of the video starts at about 2:25 if you want to skip the actual match.

[DonMagee]

I liked the quasi knee walking he used to defend that kick while he was down. The MT guy was getting the better of him though, but he faired well. It was obvious this was not an all out match, just light contact friendly sparing. It was refreshing to see they could keep it there as well.

[Aristeia]

A couple of thoughts:
1. The Aiki guy fared better than I expected which is good to see.
2. Having said that I think the fact they weren't going 100% worked better for the Aiki guy. Some of those knees etc that were being thrown would likely have ended the fight at 100%
3. At the risk of sounding all soapboxish it reinforced for me again the synery betwee aiki and bjj. There were a number of times in that vid when his aiki was leading him right into a bjj type position or situation. If he had of kept grappling at that point with BJJ trainng it would have been a seamless transition and a very potent combination.

[kironin]

halfway interesting

the aikibudo guy took the mt guy down several times but either because they were just sparring or lack of skills or experience with combative opponents wasn't able to finish control

then he seemed to change his game and started spending more time punching and kicking back producing predictable results

[Don_Modesto]

Useful practice for us all, I should imagine.

I, too, like the even tone and control of the match conducted throughout at half speed or so.

(And yes, the MT guy would have crushed the other guy with those knees...)

[aikidoc]

Not a lot of aiki-he did get off one kotegaeshi type move. Not a lot of blending, keeping a good ma-ai, or getting off line. He would have fared better if he watched the Fabio Brunno videos on YouTube for kick defenses. He definitely missed a lot of controlling opportunities. Interesting none the less.

[Aristeia]

Not a lot of aiki-he did get off one kotegaeshi type move. Not a lot of blending, keeping a good ma-ai, or getting off line. He would have fared better if he watched the Fabio Brunno videos on YouTube for kick defenses. He definitely missed a lot of controlling opportunities. Interesting none the less.Is it possible that alot of the stuff you've identifified is simply much much more difficult in a less controlled situation?

[Tharis]

Amateurish observations...

Aikidoka should stick with aikido tactics. The punching and kicking looked pretty sad.

Nice kotegaishi, but he failed to control the elbow, and there went that.

Decent grappling, but once he gets into a certain range, he doesn't have the tools needed. I'm sure there's a great sales pitch for BJJ in there somewhere.

In general, based on my own experiences, Aikido doesn't lend itself well to sparring. We practice for solid, committed attacks with intent to KO, not the feinting and jabbing of a sparrer. Also, and my teacher used to (probably still does) harp on this a lot: There's a tendency among some Aikidoka to get into this weird "fighting" mentality where we tense up and try to force techniques onto the aggressor, with results that look comical under forgiving circumstances. I think the Aikido guy was falling into that trap towards the end, with predictable results, definitely falling into the Muay Thai guy's game.

Also, I'm starting to think that Aikido tactics work best from an approach of total domination. No matter how they move, you move with their move and make it your own. I was watching that and wondering if the guy wouldn't do well to just close range and force the kind of committed attacks we're used to rather than hovering at ma-ai and waiting for the punch to come. Then again, in some situations such an approach may be a knife's edge away from suicide.

All told, a very informative video, and I think the guy held up well under the circumstances. I also think that if there were a "winner" or "loser" the muay thai guy probably won.

[Karen Wolek]

I'm only 1st kyu, so take this for what it's worth, but I didn't see a lot of aikido-like movement in there. He stepped back a lot and blocked a lot, and didn't do a lot of redirecting or entering either.

Then again, I am not really sure what "aikibudo" is.

[statisticool]

Very interesting. Thanks for the vid!

[L. Camejo]

Ok I know it's not a fight, but Omg they really call that sparring? It looked more like semi-planned, cooperative, light freeplay. The degree of telegraphing on both sides was ridiculous imho. Not sure which were more painful to watch, the long range irimi nage that would have no hope of connecting by the Aikibudo guy or the spinning elbows used by the MT guy when his target was at kicking range.

I think it would have been a lot better had they actually done some medium contact sparring. Imho that vid cheapened both styles a bit. Imho of course. ;)

Well you asked for opinions.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

[Michael Varin]

This was obviously very light contact, which is fine. You can learn a lot from that type of sparring, as long as you understand where it fits.
Imho that vid cheapened both styles a bit.At first I totally disagreed with this statement, but I thought about it, and you're probably correct. It doesn't show what either art is really good at. . . but learning how to NOT do something is quite beneficial.
Aikidoka should stick with aikido tactics.
In general, based on my own experiences, Aikido doesn't lend itself well to sparring. We practice for solid, committed attacks with intent to KO, not the feinting and jabbing of a sparrer.
I think the Aikido guy was falling into that trap towards the end, with predictable results, definitely falling into the Muay Thai guy's game.This is one of my pet issues. Aikido doesn't lend itself well to sparring, because the techniques have a low relevance in those situations. They are simply out of context. Give the aikido guy a bokken and watch how the two arts match up. Suddenly the muay thai guy would be compelled to play a different game.

If weapons aren't present the techniques of aikido can't shine. They come from a culture where weapons, particularly edged weapons, were always carried. If I have a sword, drawn or not, kickboxing techniques are silly. If you feint you will end up just as dead as you would if you commit to a one punch KO, so you might as well commit.

Physical conflict extends far beyond one-on-one emptyhand, and we should try to force a square peg into a round hole.
Not a lot of aiki-he did get off one kotegaeshi type move. Not a lot of blending, keeping a good ma-ai, or getting off line. He would have fared better if he watched the Fabio Brunno videos on YouTube for kick defenses. He definitely missed a lot of controlling opportunities. Interesting none the less.Is it possible that alot of the stuff you've identifified is simply much much more difficult in a less controlled situation?Definitely possible!

Michael

[xuzen]

Aikido guy sparring with a Muay Thai guy...nice video, gives an idea of how we would react if we are attacked "irregular" (unknown type of attack).
IMHO, the aikido guy is not applying aikido principles (blocks attack, bad posture, linear instead of circular etc). It is easy to criticize and I think I would not be better if I were there, but it made me think that this must be the reason why aikido is not easy to learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cBg2tTCYL0

What are your opinions?

Opinion:

It is easy to think about maai, linear, circular posture bla bla bla yadda yadda... in kihon. In sparring, anything goes. I would already be very happy to not get hit in a sparring, friendly or not.

I think the aiki-budo guy was OK, his heel trip on the MT guy was innovative. What I would criticize is his lack of ground knowledge to finish the fight in a more clear cut manner.

Aiki-budo guy, if you read this forum, for the record, you did good! Now, go learn some newaza.
Boon.

[L. Camejo]

I think the aiki-budo guy was OK, his heel trip on the MT guy was innovative. What I would criticize is his lack of ground knowledge to finish the fight in a more clear cut manner.Hi Boon,

Are you referring to the heel trip early in the session where the Aikibudo guy was in hanza handachi and caught the MT guy's inner knee and heel? The same heel trip that placed his head in the perfect place for a knockout roundhouse kick to the temple that the MT guy very nicely placed too high to be of use?

Just askin.;)
LC:ai::ki:

[xuzen]

Hi Boon,

Are you referring to the heel trip early in the session where the Aikibudo guy was in hanza handachi and caught the MT guy's inner knee and heel? The same heel trip that placed his head in the perfect place for a knockout roundhouse kick to the temple that the MT guy very nicely placed too high to be of use?

Just askin.;)
LC:ai::ki:

Yo Larry...I review the clip again. Yes, I agree that the MT guy did purposely miss the Aiki guy's temple. I also see the MT guy elbow the nape of neck of the Aiki guy. If this is a REAL DEATH MATCH (TM) I think the aiki guy would have been KO.

However, one can also argue that the kotegashi followed by an elbow break would have ended the fight early on. Arguments such as this will forever be like a never-ending loop. quite akin to the chicken or egg, catch-22 type question.

Take the clip for what it is, a light full contact sparring to showcase each artist skills to the media, nothing more nothing less.

Ossu!

Boon.

[L. Camejo]

I guess my point is one can do light or slow sparring without compromising the soundness of one's waza so much that the exercise itself becomes little more than a semi-scripted, paired dance.

What is the point of "sparring" if you are not using the particular training method to develop the things that the method is designed to develop? In the end it would be better to practice cooperative paired kata imho instead of empty waza in a "sparring" environment. Many of the waza attempted by both persons in the video were ineffective from the beginning of their deployment. Imho this sort of practice can actually hurt one's training and cause one to develop bad habits if it is done regularly.

From my own experience with both arts in the vid I know that the same exercise could have been done without the need to throw empty, off target strikes/waza. In the end a similar safety level would have been maintained (though the level of awareness would need to be elevated) and each person would have a better idea of their own technical abilities/deficiencies. It would be of great help in their training imho.

If the entire thing was a publicity stunt for the media then each art should have showcased itself in its own ideal environment instead of using a "Sparring" approach imho since this leads to a host of unknowns which can hurt one's presentation of the art.

LC:ai::ki:

[kocakb]

I have found another vid. "Kyokushin Karate vs Muay Thai 1962", not sparring this time :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWhSh_huZGs&NR

[Guilty Spark]

I'm reminded of a quote I heard from an inteview by Steven Seagal.
It was something akin to The difference between fighting on the matt and fighting in the street is like swimming on a matt compard to swimming in the ocean.
Sparring and 'fighting' are deffinatly two different monsters. Even in the newest fad, UFC, theres rules, on the street theres not.

I'm not a big fan of watching these videos then commenting on what would and wouldn't work on the street. Theres just too much left to chance.
A personal example I was sparring as a white belt and getting my ass handed to me by a black belt. They owned me, I couldn't land any decent strikes. When we had a go at it after class one night, outside of being 'in the ring' I grabbed them, got a few kicks and knees in, shook them and basically fought dirty remminisent of bar fights and "fight club" at work. They paniced and froze. Sparring is deffinatly a different monster.

The aiki fellow in the video did, in my opinion, a lot better than many non-aikidoa would have assumed. It's a common comment "show me a video of aikido in sparring" which as we know are few and far between. What happens when one is produced? "Well that wouldn't have worked etc.. etc.."
It's a lost cause :)

I'm sure it's bed said a million times but (I think) one of the best methods of training, especially in aikido, is aliveness training.

[kocakb]

I'm reminded of a quote I heard from an inteview by Steven Seagal.
It was something akin to The difference between fighting on the matt and fighting in the street is like swimming on a matt compard to swimming in the ocean.
Sparring and 'fighting' are deffinatly two different monsters. Even in the newest fad, UFC, theres rules, on the street theres not.

I'm not a big fan of watching these videos then commenting on what would and wouldn't work on the street. Theres just too much left to chance.
A personal example I was sparring as a white belt and getting my ass handed to me by a black belt. They owned me, I couldn't land any decent strikes. When we had a go at it after class one night, outside of being 'in the ring' I grabbed them, got a few kicks and knees in, shook them and basically fought dirty remminisent of bar fights and "fight club" at work. They paniced and froze. Sparring is deffinatly a different monster.

The aiki fellow in the video did, in my opinion, a lot better than many non-aikidoa would have assumed. It's a common comment "show me a video of aikido in sparring" which as we know are few and far between. What happens when one is produced? "Well that wouldn't have worked etc.. etc.."
It's a lost cause :)

I'm sure it's bed said a million times but (I think) one of the best methods of training, especially in aikido, is aliveness training.

you are completely right what you wrote, my aim was not to discuss is aikido effective etc...I found the video interesting because it is a good example to see that we learn aikido but we can not apply it easily due to habits. We learn that we should be always off-line, we are told not to block attacks, we are told that we should move in etc. but if we are in a situation where we don't know how we will be attacked, then we don't apply - (or forget) any of the learnt basics I wrote above. The aiki guy tried to kick or tried use the techniques like the MT guy does. I am sure, if the aiki guy would be in the dojo, training with another aikidoka, he would behave-move different...as a result, therefore, Jiu-waza, randori etc becames very important to us to learn to move in an aiki-way, not to forget the principles and basics.

[RoyK]

If weapons aren't present the techniques of aikido can't shine. They come from a culture where weapons, particularly edged weapons, were always carried. If I have a sword, drawn or not, kickboxing techniques are silly. If you feint you will end up just as dead as you would if you commit to a one punch KO, so you might as well commit.


Wow, that's an interesting perspective, I'll ponder on that, thanks.

[Rich Stephens]

He would have fared better if he watched the Fabio Brunno videos on YouTube for kick defenses.

I searched and couldn't find anything but then searched for "aikido vs." and came up with an aikido vs. kickboxing video featuring Fabio Branno (with an "a"). Is this the guy you were thinking of? He did have some good moved against kicks. Thanks.

[NagaBaba]

If the entire thing was a publicity stunt for the media then each art should have showcased itself in its own ideal environment instead of using a "Sparring" approach imho since this leads to a host of unknowns which can hurt one's presentation of the art.

LC:ai::ki:
I agree completly. This event was done for tv and has nothing to do with any sparring (light or whatever) and represents nothing at all. However even in such bizarre environment aikibudoka did quite well. I suggest for everyone to try even once such experience before writing here comments about what this aikibudoka should do or not.......

From my humble experience it is VERY difficult, and I agree that from pedagogical point of view one should have some kind of structured training to prepare for such free play. I personally am working a lot on jiu waza but still in more or less cooperative environment. No important injuries so far! :D

[L. Camejo]

Maybe I'm a bit thick here but if the folks were not really sparring, but not really doing a demo either, how did the Aikibudoka or the MT guy for that matter do well? They did well at what? Showing that Aikibudo may have an odd chance against okayish MT if light sparring/demonstration is being conducted? Or that MT strikes are generally way off target and is generally a good art to use to make Aikibudoka look good?

I'm all for a meangingful display of skill in sparring or other environments (e.g. demonstration) but it is important to understand the context. If one can show skill and ability against a seriously resisting/fighting opponent in a sparring contest (whether light or heavy) then I say kudos to that person, regardless of art. However there were many things in the vid that to me revealed that those folks were neither really sparring nor really demonstrating, it was kinda a little bit of both, which is fine as long as we remember this when attempting to make any judgement on "skill" or "how well" someone did.

This is like when a new student tells me how good a fighter Jet Li is based on all his movies and awards in demonstration Wing Chun. Imho Jet Li is a great martial artist and has superb demo/choreographed fighting skills and form, but I would not call him a good fighter because of his ability in demonstration. Likewise it is difficult to say that the Aikibudoka "did well" when he was not really under much pressure to begin with.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

[CNYMike]

Is it possible that alot of the stuff you've identifified is simply much much more difficult in a less controlled situation?

Sparring automaticaly makes a lot of things more difficult. The mere fact that when you start your counter, your partner will move or block changes things a bit. Unless you explode in, you won't get on his side the way irimi movements do. I never hadve, ayway.

But I did get off the line once. I was sparring in Jun fan, and my partner kicked with his right leg which I blocked with my left hand. When he put his foot down, he started doing a spinning backhand. When he started knew the vector it was going to be on and did a sideway shuffle to the side. The backfist sailed by. (The Sifu said, "No spinning techniques.")

The trick, I guess is to identify where "the line" is and think far enough ahead to make use of it. Not the easiest thing in the world!

[DaveS]

This is one of my pet issues. Aikido doesn't lend itself well to sparring, because the techniques have a low relevance in those situations.
What if you view aiki as being about general principles not specific techniques?
If weapons aren't present the techniques of aikido can't shine. They come from a culture where weapons, particularly edged weapons, were always carried. If I have a sword, drawn or not, kickboxing techniques are silly. If you feint you will end up just as dead as you would if you commit to a one punch KO, so you might as well commit.
I know very little about japanese sword art, but I thought there were ideas like feinting and leaving false openings in there? It's just that someone misreading a feint or trying to exploit an opening that isn't really there tends to get killed in a fraction of a second so you don't get extended cat-and-mouse jabbing and blocking like you do in a boxing ring. I might be dead wrong on this though.

In general, I suspect it'd be very interesting to try getting aikido to work on someone with basic boxing or kickboxing skills - finding out how the same skills and principles turn into different strategies to deal with the different threats (lots of quick blows with not so much body movement) and different opportunities (can you say guard hand?) that a kickboxer offers. Unfortunately for me, I guess this is going to require getting my 'normal' aikido up to a good standard before I can even think about it.

Has anyone else tried this?

[DonMagee]

The problem with the weapon concept in my mind is that it assumes a person will fight you in a particular way. I prefer to not worry about how they will fight me, I just play my game. I might get stabbed or shot, but them are the breaks, and I don't see any advantage in playing as if every person is holding a sword. It should not matter how your opponent fights, it should only matter if you can get him to play your game. You can be an expert striker, but if I am good enough to throw you on your skull, well I did what I want to do, but if you are good enough to make me think i can throw you on your skull, then i'm screwed.

I think the feints are still there in sword work, it is just much more subdued. A slight movement of the wrist could be a feint with a sword. So you it might not be noticeable. But when you attack, you have to kill the person. If not you risk being killed yourself. So you have commitment to the strike, and thus weakness. I wonder how many people died at the same time as their target in sword duels. I know it happened a lot in Europe.

I see no reason why aikido would not work in the situation the video presented. Even without committed strikes, you could move off the line and just evade. Eventually frustration will set in on the striker and he will commit a little more. I think it is important to play with that light contact sparing show in the video, and it's important to scale it up to hard full contact sparing as well every now and again. Ignoring the 2% or less of your skills that are 'too deadly' to use in sparing, it gives you a good approximation on where you stand in unarmed combat.

[MikeE]

I found it interesting. I spend quite a bit of time training (sparring) with folks from other arts, just so I have a basic understanding of what they want in an altercation. I'm a firm believer that it comes down to the artist and not the art. One thing I saw that I warn my students about repeatedly: Don't get drawn into your opponents' game and rhythm. Once that happens, you will be moving outside your range of effectiveness. I saw the aikibudo guy get drawn in and tried to match movement with the muay thai guy.

[mathewjgano]

Aikido guy sparring with a Muay Thai guy...nice video, gives an idea of how we would react if we are attacked "irregular" (unknown type of attack).
IMHO, the aikido guy is not applying aikido principles (blocks attack, bad posture, linear instead of circular etc). It is easy to criticize and I think I would not be better if I were there, but it made me think that this must be the reason why aikido is not easy to learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cBg2tTCYL0

What are your opinions?
I think it varies most largely on how dedicated one is to their training, more than on style when it comes to difficulty in learning...the quality of teaching is highly important too. A dojo with many yudansha will likely produce quicker results than one with one or two, if for no other reason than the greater amount of interaction one gets with those who have that higher level of experience. Generally speaking I think most martial arts, if trained in with an open and engaged mind (critical thinking skills, etc), will teach a person how to use their body with precision and power.
That said, I think this was a friendly game of counting coup more than anything else. It gave both artists a chance to demonstrate what an application of one art on another might look like, but I don't think it was supposed to represent what an all-out attack would have looked like. Both seemed to be telegraphing a bit, and I assume it was on purpose...wish I could speak their language (Russian?).
Take care,
Matthew

[NagaBaba]

. Likewise it is difficult to say that the Aikibudoka "did well" when he was not really under much pressure to begin with.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:
ok it is true.
but if somebody from non-competitive environment face someone who is use to do sparrings every class, it is already big challenge. Simply to spontanously create techniques against non standard and random attacks is not that easy regardless of 'realness' of encounter.

[Upyu]

My two cents:

For anyone that cares about body connectivity, notice the reason he was able to get off that suwariwaza was because he had a more stable base in that move. Taking a quick look at the spine, hips etc, its easy to see why he pulled it off pretty easily.
Then he gets up and throws it out to mimic the muay thai guy's sparring movement. This simply has the effect of inducing a lot of sway into in his body. Basically he destroys his own balance.
If he knew how to employ the "base" that he posessed in suwariwaza in his walking/standing movements, maybe we would've seen something a bit different. :) (IE maybe he wouldn't have sucked so much)

[Upyu]

ok it is true.
but if somebody from non-competitive environment face someone who is use to do sparrings every class, it is already big challenge. Simply to spontanously create techniques against non standard and random attacks is not that easy regardless of 'realness' of encounter.

I disagree. I've seen some students here in our class who don't regularly spar(Read go through hard sparring only 2-3 times a year) and still be able to hold their own against pancrase/shooto guys that spar 3-4 times a week.　Sure they look like crap, but they don't lose their balance, they can take a hit, and they're hard to take down.

If you can't move spontaneously according to a move you haven't anticipated, then maybe your body hasn't been "conditioned" properly and you have to re-evaluate how you're training your body.

My two cents.

[Michael Varin]

What if you view aiki as being about general principles not specific techniques?Great. Nothing I said is at odds with this. Aiki can manifest in many ways, but I said the techniques of aikido. Watch footage of Roy Jones Jr. in his prime. You will see aiki, but not the techniques of aikido.

Form follows function. The function of the techniques of aikido is to support the use of weapons.

I'm feeling some déjà vu.

If I have a sword, drawn or not, kickboxing techniques are silly. If you feint you will end up just as dead as you would if you commit to a one punch KO, so you might as well commit. I know very little about japanese sword art, but I thought there were ideas like feinting and leaving false openings in there?I was referring to the daunting task of facing a sword while unarmed, and how the techniques of a kick boxer might fair.

I think it is difficult to understand aikido without some understanding of the sword.

I prefer to not worry about how they will fight me, I just play my game. I might get stabbed or shot, but them are the breaks, and I don't see any advantage in playing as if every person is holding a sword.That's your prerogative, but I bet you'd respond to a weapon instinctively.

Don, from some of your previous posts I gather that you've done MMA. Why is it that we don't see the techniques of aikido utilized more often? These guys care about winning. If they could use the techniques to win they would. On the other hand, the strategy they employ would get them killed or seriously injured a high percentage of the time if a weapon was involved.

Michael

[L. Camejo]

I was referring to the daunting task of facing a sword while unarmed, and how the techniques of a kick boxer might fair.Imho the techniques of an unarmed Aikidoka would fare no better against a skilled swordsman. The advantage of reach and lethality is extremely high here. A good practice on this is to do some empty hand vs. shinai or bokken randori with a good Kendoka as your Uke.I think it is difficult to understand aikido without some understanding of the sword.Agreed. But this does not mean that Aikido or Daito Ryu for that matter were designed only to work in situations where a weapon is involved. There is a reason tegatana is important in Aikido practice, one does not need an actual sword in order to use one. Don, from some of your previous posts I gather that you've done MMA. Why is it that we don't see the techniques of aikido utilized more often? These guys care about winning. If they could use the techniques to win they would. On the other hand, the strategy they employ would get them killed or seriously injured a high percentage of the time if a weapon was involved.From my own experience with Jujutsu/MMA types (being also a JJ student, though not of the competitive type) the ju waza often lend themselves better for the ruleset that these competitions allow. It is much easier if one is training for competition to focus on higher percentage of success techniques than spending the time and effort required to make a particular subset of waza work in that particular ruleset, e.g. Aiki waza. It's the same reason why you don't see MMAers doing the high chambered pretty TKD kicks, simply because these types of tactics do not present a high percentage of success in an MMA environment.

To throw a monkey wrench into the mix, if however you have an Aikidoka or TKD practitioner who has the level of training and time in training to make their high kicks or aiki waza brutally effective in high resistance/competitive scenarios then you'd find that these anomalies would step onto an MMA mat and actually get these things to work on such types, even with the competitive rule base. However the average MMA person has much better things to do with their time to get them into winning form without spending the extensive periods of training required to develop techniques that to their knowledge have a low percentage of success. The focus here is on winning the bout in the most effective and efficient means possible, not one of exploring the applicability of Aiki waza in MMA comps.

Why the low percentage of success with Aiki waza? How many people can you honestly name who can actually teach Aiki waza or execute it at a level high enough that it will actually work in a MMA type environment? And among those, how many can teach it in a manner to be as quickly effective as a double leg takedown or a choke? There are not many at all.

Getting back to point, this is part of why the Aikibudoka would find difficulty in getting an advantageous ma ai or position on the MT fighter who is trained in closing down angles of attack, not giving up balance too easily when striking (the MT guy in the vid was sad in this regard with his kicking), not telegraphing the attack etc. The vid above did not show some of these things because this was not an actual sparring match but more of a sparring demo. But imho if that is the case then a well trained Aikidoka should have fared even better in executing waza given the situation. The footwork shows it all.

Just some thoughts.

LC:ai::ki:

[Kevin Leavitt]

Larry, I must be thick headed too. I agree with you.

I had a personal experience this weekend competing in the European BJJ Championships in Lisbon, Portugual.

I lost my second fight in the open class. I will try and get the video up in a few days.

Essentially I fought my opponent and for 3 minutes of a 5 minute fight neither one of us could get the other down on the ground. The ref broke up the fight and told us that we had to do something. So seeing that neither one of us was going to budge, I figured since I was bigger, that I would be more agressive and force the fight, hoping that maybe I would get the advantage point for being the agressive.

Anyway, I shot, missed, and he sprawled, I defended properly and went to the guard, he passed, got two points, went to side control and I escaped back to the guard. We played around, the fight ended...he one.

In hind sight, I would have been better to NOT establish guard and let him have side control, as I could have defended that okay, and he would have never got the 2 points for passing guard even though side control is a more dangerous position.

I would never train this way, as it is not tactically sound. I also watched many people "pull guard" from the takedown, which I also never do as it is not tactically sound in reality, but works well as a fighting strategy in BJJ comp rules.

I have no issue with it, because it is a competition, and fun, and helps you sharpen your skills, and to be honest, it takes very top skills to win. However, part of competition is knowing how to play to the rules of your game and exploiting them to your advantage.

To me, as a martial artist, you must be able to make this distinction and train in such a way as to be flexible enough to win in both life and to also play to the rules.

[L. Camejo]

Hi Kevin,

Happy to hear you had fun at the European Championships. It sounds like a pretty high level competition I would love to see some footage of that sometime.

I agree totally with you on the above. In fact I had a similar experience very recently at my Jujutsu Hombu (Akayama Ryu) where I visited recently. We were doing full out randori and I got beat the first time around by the dojo cho, which I could understand perfectly, him being a cop who had never lost a fight with a perp in his career from using Jujutsu and my own lack of experience with sparring people above my level.

I also lost my second fight but this went a lot more interesting. I initially had the same sort of standing stalemate like you spoke of above until at one point I threw the other guy cleanly with a kaiten nage type throw (a form of Aiki waza in our jujutsu system) but did not follow up for the submission or pin, allowing the guy to get back on his feet and the fight to resume (bad Aikido habit I have). At some point I decided to "switch off" using Aikido/aiki waza because I really went there to enhance my jujutsu skills. At one point he shot for my hips and I stood my ground and sprawled a bit but he got behind and dragged me down a little while after. We grappled on the ground for a while, he had me in a mount, I got out of it (baited him with an armbar but he did not take it ;)), he got my back and due to my own lack of fitness in this environment he got me with a rear choke, mainly because I did not want to blow chunks on the mat after being spent from the first fight. It was great fun though and it helped me see a lot of my own weaknesses which I plan to address. Our sensei was quite surprised at how long I lasted in the ground fighting aspect of the fight and was somehow not surprised that though it almost never happens in our jujutsu system, I was able to throw one of the guys with Aiki waza in a randori match.

What was interesting is that yet again my Aiki waza and stand up approach worked well but I just did not finish. My ju waza and fitness of course need some work. However if I had not let myself go into "ju waza only" mode I doubt that I would have been taken down at all, similar to your situation where a mental choice for change in tactics resulted in your attempting to shoot and the rest happening on the ground afterwards. In light of the above the following line rings most true:
To me, as a martial artist, you must be able to make this distinction and train in such a way as to be flexible enough to win in both life and to also play to the rules.If I had just played with the rules while remembering that in jujutsu we train with a pure self defence mindset I think my mental approach to the second bout would have been different and it would have ended differently. However my choice to use it as practice yielded different results which will help me get better at Jujutsu, so sometimes we win by losing.:)

What's this got to do with the point of the thread? Aikido and Aiki waza can work quite well in a Jujutsu/MMA type sparring environment, but only if one already trains Aiki waza in a manner that allows it to work in that environment. None of my pals at the Jujutsu hombu place a lot of focus on the Aiki waza until they reach shodan or thereabouts I believe. As a resut their Ju waza is superb while their aiki waza needs some work. Since I have come to jujutsu from an Aikido background (one that has shiai as well), my Aiki waza has developed somewhat but my Ju waza needs the work. Interesting.:)

Hope to see some pics and vids of the BJJ Championships.

LC:ai::ki:

[Duarh]

I'm not qualified to evaluate the quality of the sparring in this video, but I thought it might be useful to note a couple of the things the guy running the show said in the clip.

First, he explicitly acknowledges that they asked the guys not to injure each other and that, therefore, the MT guy will have to hold back on the strikes. Later on he notes that a number of the strikes could have ended the fight then and there (says the same about some of the aiki guy's takedowns). He finishes with the assertion that, within the boundaries of the limitations on force, this was 'real' (not rehearsed, etc), but he acknowledges that some people will want their reality more real (i.e., everything goes). I hope this clarifies the intention/meaning of this video.

Also, apparently, the MT guy has done MT for 10 years, is the champion of Belarus in Muay Thai and a world champion of kickboxing. Didn't find any independent verification of this, though I didn't look very hard. The aikibudo guy has done it for 8 years and is a nidan.


Personally,I liked some of the things the aikibudo guy did initially; I think he got tired quickly, though, or otherwise grew demoralized. I also think the previous observations in this thread about being drawn into the other player's game are very true (I certainly observe it in myself when I play around with people who wrestle). Still, it's true that as an art-vs-art comparison, this video seems crippled by the asymmetric effect of the restrictions.

OTOH, if the muay thai guy is really a champion of this and that, the fight does not seem very evenly matched to start with. On the aikido side, for a balance between optimum skill and stamina, I'd like to see a late-20ies/early-30ies 3rd/4th dan former uchideshi/kenshusei of one of the 'harder' shihan (a Chiba-sensei student or a Yoshinkan practitioner, perhaps) go for it. Against competitive fighters, it seems that anyone who has _not_ done hard, prolonged uchideshi type of training in aikido and does not at the time of the fight train hard enough and often enough to maintain significant stamina would hardly be adequately matched even absent any distinctions of style.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Good comments Toms.

A challenge we will always face in training will be balancing reality with saftety. We have to constantly assess and evaluate our criteria and control measures we put in place to keep things sustainable and safe.

As our good friend Matt Thornton from SBGI calls it...aliveness....and we must train with a certain degree of this always...that is, if we are concerned with the martial aspects of the art.

If you train fully alive, you cannot sustain training, or really learn things. It's like trying to fix bugs in a computer program by running the full program over and over and producing the same error, yet not isolating out or implementing control measures to figure out where the bug is.

Contrary, if you constantly run with the controls on the program, you will never really get the program to work the way it is supposed to.

striking a balance is key. We must also be concerned with an environment of comfort and complacentency where we get false positives because we train with people with the exact same paradigm and level of cooperation. It is good to introduce new criteria, views, or levels of conflict etc

It makes you uncomfortable, makes you think, but I believe this is how you grow best.

[Michael Varin]

Imho the techniques of an unarmed Aikidoka would fare no better against a skilled swordsman. The advantage of reach and lethality is extremely high here. A good practice on this is to do some empty hand vs. shinai or bokken randori with a good KendokaI wouldn't do this with a bokken; I'm not that masochistic. I have done this with a shinai. It's extremely difficult. That advantage is the whole reason the sword exists. In my experiences with this sort of practice, kick boxing techniques make no sense. This is close to a worst case scenario, but my point is that because of the ways the body moves the techniques of aikido and related arts are more available. It's not that they are easy to get, it's that they are there.

Plus, I didn't say that the techniques were designed to face an armed attacker unarmed. They support the use of weapons.

But this does not mean that Aikido or Daito Ryu for that matter were designed only to work in situations where a weapon is involved.I didn't say only, but how do you think Sokaku Takeda pictured fighting?

There is a reason tegatana is important in Aikido practice, one does not need an actual sword in order to use one.Possibly, but I think it's just as likely a reminder of where a sword or knife fits in.

It is much easier if one is training for competition to focus on higher percentage of success techniques than spending the time and effort required to make a particular subset of waza work in that particular ruleset, e.g. Aiki waza. It's the same reason why you don't see MMAers doing the high chambered pretty TKD kicks, simply because these types of tactics do not present a high percentage of success in an MMA environment.I disagree with your assessment. You are stating that some techniques have a higher percentage of success, but assume that any could be made successful if they were developed. You don't seem to be asking why some techniques fit more easily than others.

How many people can you honestly name who can actually teach Aiki waza or execute it at a level high enough that it will actually work in a MMA type environment?If the answer is not many at all, why? How many people have studied aikido and related arts? How long have these arts been widely known?

And among those, how many can teach it in a manner to be as quickly effective as a double leg takedown or a choke?What makes these techniques so effective? Would a double-leg be highly effective in a sword or knife fight?

You can turn screws with a butter knife, but a screwdriver works much better.

Michael

[DonMagee]

I disagree. I've seen some students here in our class who don't regularly spar(Read go through hard sparring only 2-3 times a year) and still be able to hold their own against pancrase/shooto guys that spar 3-4 times a week.　Sure they look like crap, but they don't lose their balance, they can take a hit, and they're hard to take down.

If you can't move spontaneously according to a move you haven't anticipated, then maybe your body hasn't been "conditioned" properly and you have to re-evaluate how you're training your body.

My two cents.

You've seem some students, but have you seen the majority of students? Some is not a benchmark for success. The majority of hard sparing mma type guys do well in those situations. I'm not sure the majority of aikido guys who do not hard spar would do well against them. Of course a few will do just fine. This is not do to aikido training, they would be good at fighting no matter if they did ballet. This is not a hit on the effectiveness of aikido, just a statement about success in MMA type sparing.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Michael wrote:

You can turn screws with a butter knife, but a screwdriver works much better.


True, but what happens when all you have is a butter knife? or you have no butter knife at all? Maybe you ask your buddy to help out with his butter knife, or you go buy a screw driver.

Seriously, not picking on you..simply capitalizing on your trail of thought.

I think we all at times assume (or would like to assume) that our art that we study is that proverbial "one size fits all" screwdriver...or better yet the ultimate Gerber/leatherman/champion swis army knife!

On the other hand, most of us admit at some point in our lives, we will martially only possess a butter knife, and therefore, we must learn how to get as much use out of that common object as possible.

Maybe we find that carrying a screwdriver to be too narrow focuses, or not useful (low percentage) for all the things we must do everyday, therefore we practice exploiting that butter knife to get as much out of it as we can.

I can practice "low percentage/specialized" techniques and become quite good at them, and presented with the right situation it is exactly the right thing that we needed at that point and time.

However, that butter knife, I carry in my back pocket can butter my toast, turn the broken knob on my radio, and fix that screw that comes loose on my desk chair.

High percentage techniques like chokes, low kicks, clinching, jabs, crosses etc....get the job done, offer us a universal set of tools that while maybe not the most efficient or effective means of response...they work and that is all that matters in the end

Does it really matter if the screw was turned by a butter knife or a screwdriver, if the desired endstate is met?

[Ron Tisdale]

However, that butter knife, I carry in my back pocket can butter my toast, turn the broken knob on my radio, and fix that screw that comes loose on my desk chair.

If you are carrying it in your back pocket, it can also stick you in the @$$...

B,
R ;)

[Kevin Leavitt]

thanks ron! I should have known that all that illusionary talking would bite me in the ass!

[Michael Varin]

I think we all at times assume (or would like to assume) that our art that we study is that proverbial "one size fits all" screwdriver...or better yet the ultimate Gerber/leatherman/champion swis army knife!I like your multi-tool reference. . . but I think you are misunderstanding my intentions. I don't profess aikido or any other art to be all encompassing. I wasn't knocking MMA techniques or the sport. I wasn't even making a statement about practicality. Nor was I suggesting how anyone should train.

I said I don't believe the techniques of aikido make sense in one-on-one empty-hand situations. I believe they do make sense in supporting the use of weapons, and if you like aikido it might be worth exploring. You may find that a more honest practice can develop if you put these techniques into their environment.

High percentage techniques like chokes, low kicks, clinching, jabs, crosses etc....get the job done, offer us a universal set of tools that while maybe not the most efficient or effective means of response...they work and that is all that matters in the endIn a world where carrying swords is common, do these remain high percentage techniques? Do they offer a universal (here comes that Gerber again) set of tools?

Michael

[Upyu]

You've seem some students, but have you seen the majority of students? Some is not a benchmark for success. The majority of hard sparing mma type guys do well in those situations. I'm not sure the majority of aikido guys who do not hard spar would do well against them. Of course a few will do just fine. This is not do to aikido training, they would be good at fighting no matter if they did ballet. This is not a hit on the effectiveness of aikido, just a statement about success in MMA type sparing.

Actually the other majority of the students have experience fighting, so I don't include them in the bracket I described. Either way you cut it, we don't focus on sparring situations, but it seems the solo training drastically improves performance in that area.
It's also a little disconcerting to some grapplers here that've been doing what they do for 3-4 years, have another guy come in that's had ... almost zero experience and have them unable to pass his guard(with him barely trying) or take him down.

All I'm saying is that there are people that can't handle sparring, then maybe they need to reevaluate their own training. More sparring isn't necessarily the answer.

[L. Camejo]

That advantage is the whole reason the sword exists. In my experiences with this sort of practice, kick boxing techniques make no sense.
If one uses kickboxing techniques as one does in a kickboxing match they probably would not work, but how much sparring have you seen with kickboxing vs sword/bokken/shinai? There is not much around, but again if this is all one has at the time one needs to be able to adapt. I would not say that MT type striking attacks would not work against a longer range weapon like a sword, I'd say it requires training in that area to find ways inside of the weapon's reach and make the weapon a non-issue, the same way unarmed Aikido or Jujutsu or tanto jutsu or any other close method would deal with a weapon like a sword. One first needs to get past the weapon to get to the person, on a basic level, Aikido uses ma ai and irimi just like a swordsman. From my experience though, most Aikidoka are not as skilled as comparable Kendoka in this sort of ma ai manipulation and irimi skill. To be quite honest, being unarmed against a weapon like a live Japanese blade puts one at a severe disadvantage and would be suicide 99% of the time unless ambush tactics are used. What art one trains in is irrelevant if facing off with a swordsman while unarmed.Plus, I didn't say that the techniques were designed to face an armed attacker unarmed. They support the use of weapons.
...
I didn't say only, but how do you think Sokaku Takeda pictured fighting?Thanks for the clarification. I can't speak for Takeda, although he was alive at the time when the Japanese military and certain ryu used rifles so it would be interesting how he would view the power of the sword in light of this. In fact the same rules that apply to getting leverage on a swordsman if unarmed apply to getting leverage on a rifle at range if armed with a sword.;)Possibly, but I think it's just as likely a reminder of where a sword or knife fits in.True. This in no way diminishes its utility as a weapon unto itself if one knows how to use it well. If one can use tegatana properly and apply power through it, a sword or tanto are just gravy.I disagree with your assessment. You are stating that some techniques have a higher percentage of success, but assume that any could be made successful if they were developed. You don't seem to be asking why some techniques fit more easily than others.I have no need to assume. I have done this in the past and probably will continue to. From my experience the techniques that "fit" have a lot to do with how much you want to survive/succeed. Of course there are always the "most appropriate" waza for a situation after one gets the time to do an academic observation of a particular situation, however in most cases one does not have this luxury and it comes down to how bad you want to "get in the screw" using your analogy. If you want it bad enough the butter knife works as well as, if not better than the screw driver, even though the other was designed for the job. Violent situations hardly occur under perfect conditions, it gets even worse when the attacker is skilled.If the answer is not many at all, why?In an art where there is generally no objective evaluation of technical skill, those who are skilled tend to be in a minority and among this minority, those who are able to distill what they know to teach it quickly and clearly are quite few indeed.How many people have studied aikido and related arts? How long have these arts been widely known?Afaik Aikido's history is full of martial artists who had yudansha grade in a multitude of other methods while studying Aikido. This continues today. The issue is not with Aikidoka who study other arts (there are lots of those) it's about Aikidoka who can honestly state that they have equivalent effective skill in Aikido as they may do in another art that regularly judges technical effectiveness objectively. In Aikido this is a rare animal indeed.What makes these techniques so effective? Would a double-leg be highly effective in a sword or knife fight?It depends. To disregard the potential for lethality in ones attacker is to create an opening to invite an attack. It is often the unexpected that is most effective in sparring and reality.You can turn screws with a butter knife, but a screwdriver works much better.True, but unless you want to carry a toolkit everywhere to have the best response for every screw the butter knife will do the job and allow you to do many other things way better than a screwdriver would. As always it comes down to the skill and resourcefulness of the individual in using and adapting the tool.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

[shadowedge]

Aikido guy sparring with a Muay Thai guy...nice video, gives an idea of how we would react if we are attacked "irregular" (unknown type of attack).
IMHO, the aikido guy is not applying aikido principles (blocks attack, bad posture, linear instead of circular etc). It is easy to criticize and I think I would not be better if I were there, but it made me think that this must be the reason why aikido is not easy to learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cBg2tTCYL0

What are your opinions?

> Both fighters held significantly back

> Each had different opportunities to win at certain points in the match.

> IMHO the aikidbudo guy shouldn't have tried to play the MT guys game. I guess he must have lost focus due to the fact he was trying to be innovate and adapt.

> Either way the match was a good video to learn from. I believe both fighters did well in their own way.

[DonMagee]

I like your multi-tool reference. . . but I think you are misunderstanding my intentions. I don't profess aikido or any other art to be all encompassing. I wasn't knocking MMA techniques or the sport. I wasn't even making a statement about practicality. Nor was I suggesting how anyone should train.

I said I don't believe the techniques of aikido make sense in one-on-one empty-hand situations. I believe they do make sense in supporting the use of weapons, and if you like aikido it might be worth exploring. You may find that a more honest practice can develop if you put these techniques into their environment.

In a world where carrying swords is common, do these remain high percentage techniques? Do they offer a universal (here comes that Gerber again) set of tools?

Michael

in a world where guns are common, do martial arts have any viablity?

[Michael McCaslin]

Absolutely. Google for Tueller Drill.

Spend some time thinking about how you are going to draw your gun while a determined attacker is in the process of trying to beat your brains in.

For people who decide to go through life armed, martial arts are necessary to survive an engagement for long enough to access a weapon.

For people who go through life unarmed (whether by choice or law), martial arts are necessary to survive an engagement for long enough to access the attacker's weapon.

Maybe the odds aren't good, but the right training will improve them.

Michael

[Talon]

I recently saw this on youtube. Its in Russian so i don't really know what they are saying but it seems to be a very reare thing since there are not too many sparring (alive) videos of aikido or aiki arts on the net. I figured I'd post it here and see what you guys think of it. Sorry if it was posted here before. What are your thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cBg2tTCYL0

Paul

[Talon]

I see its been discussed allready....interesting thoughts guys....

[DonMagee]

Absolutely. Google for Tueller Drill.

Spend some time thinking about how you are going to draw your gun while a determined attacker is in the process of trying to beat your brains in.

For people who decide to go through life armed, martial arts are necessary to survive an engagement for long enough to access a weapon.

For people who go through life unarmed (whether by choice or law), martial arts are necessary to survive an engagement for long enough to access the attacker's weapon.

Maybe the odds aren't good, but the right training will improve them.

Michael

My point was that people say well MMA wont work against a sword. So by logical extention, no martial art works, because of guns.

[Talon]

There is nothing wrong with mma....as a matter of fact the longer I study Aikido and the more research I do, the more I see that MMA is probably the best way to go for self defense and definitelly for actual fight experience. Sword versus MMA is a very silly argument in my eyes.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Yea it has already been discussed some. It is "alive"-r"...or more alive...AND it really is hard (or easy) to be a critic of a video that can be taken out of context....

It is sparring for sure. However, not much offered really in aliveness. There is nothing wrong with this as a warm up, exercise, or to work on kicks etc....

but, does not train the core of aliveness. They are kicking and punching and really doing things politely and at a peripherial level...not affecting the core or center much.

Slight improvement...maybe...over randori...

They disengage from clinch range and back up and start over again and again....a risky proposition in alive training.

That said, they could simply be training a particular range and moving back out again...it is hard to tell.

Obviously, both are skilled at what they do.

Just think want to point out that this, to me, is not really encompassing much aliveness as many of us are talking about in the context that we are talking about it.

Just a slightly amped up form of randori with a thai boxer.

[KamiKaze_Evolution]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cBg2tTCYL0

what do you thinking about?

[Kevin Leavitt]

it was discussed on this thread.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11710&highlight=muay+thai

check it out and see if it answers your questions! Good luck.

[Roman Kremianski]

For those of you who don't speak Russian (ehehe) the announcer says pre-fight that it has been agreed the aiki guy would not do any grappling, and he announces at several points where he thinks they fight would have "ended" as the aiki guy was apparently in a position for some kind of submission that he purposefully didn't do.

Overall, I think the aiki guy did alright, and that kotegashi wasn't bad. He grabbed alot of the MT guy's kicks (rather light looking kicks) where he could have done something more final, and likewise, the MT guy looked like he would have fractured the aiki guy's head with some of those mock knee strikes.

Dunno what exactly this video was meant to show really, but bear in mind the two guys looked the same weight class.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Roman, does it give a purpose for the exhibition? what was the intent of the fight?

[Roman Kremianski]

To be honest, it looks like some dodgy Russian thing. (We're popular in that area) Just some translated bits from the vid:

The announcer says viewers have cast their votes in the previous show to see styles pitted against each other. He says "the best" representatives from both styles are here to fight. Sounds a bit like BS to me, as a young 2nd dan aiki guy is far from the best representative of his style.

The aiki guy is a 2nd dan from a Moscow dojo. The funny part is, I just noticed the aiki guy (70kg) outweighs the MT guy! (65kg)

The MT guy is the Belorussian champion in MT and "champion of the world" in kick boxing. Not kidding, I'm just the translator.

The announcer at the end says the "real" goal of the video was not to show which was better, but to highlight the positives of each style. He says it's up to the "viewer" to decide which they though was better.

If enough people want, I can put in subtitles from the announcers comments during the match and the pre-fight talks.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Thanks for the info...it helps!

[Norton]

I know this is an old thread but, the video seems to be removed from YouTube and does anyone know a fresh link for that video? Because I really wanna see it.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Click here (http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=-5412979688232976890).

[Guilty Spark]

The thing about Aikido is that it's techniques are so deadly you can't spar with someone because you would kill them and aikido would be, you know,banned the world over.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Grant..that is a secret...people are supposed to think that aikido is about tofu eating and peace. We like it that way!

[Norton]

Thanks for the link.

[earnest aikidoka]

is it possible to combine aikido's footwork and techniques with boxing? cos in the video, there was an opening for a few uppercuts and hooks to the body if the aikidoka knew how to throw those punches.

[CitoMaramba]

Kuroiwa Sensei has combined aikido with his background as an amateur boxer.. You can view an example of his techniques here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyxbvg4fJ-M&fmt=18

This clip is more complete but lacks the English translation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKcmf-0H9YY&fmt=18

I really like the way he has incorporated boxing, especially the uppercut and hook, into his aikido..

[earnest aikidoka]

interesting, thanks.