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jovan80
01-24-2007, 01:28 PM
Here are some video clips.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMWCjRm4_TQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u46p2pUG4bE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tquL4jJORY4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7HSBnWR3vQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN__r8V6goI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d8a9q7sSYA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMORCemxOBI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szIDHXxjW78

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p5MDSMWJmY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8cgFLNtGjc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Wnp-cbWGQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeN8CZPMJhg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Gd66ppMFk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7q1ezQkbFY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LhV5nsEYqM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD_Xqo5iT3Q

Dragoljub Noveski:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F6sqrELI4k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZY8bI3hoo0
nadcops:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGRQgrdrG0k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuIOr41dvDc

Bratislav stajic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ6sw-KwUQs


what do you think about this videos?

charyuop
01-24-2007, 03:22 PM
Don't know why, but it reminds more jujitsu than Aikido...but I am just a newbe so don't consider my opinion hee hee

eyrie
01-24-2007, 09:52 PM
Obviously there is a variance in skills with each of the people demonstrating, but I particularly liked the ones with the handcuffs (nadcops)... (good demo of taijutsu skills) also Dragoljub Noveski's 2-person randori was pretty good - nice use of ma-ai and timing.

Tinyboy344
01-25-2007, 12:25 AM
I liked the performance in clips, the Ukes in those videos are always a motivation for me to train harder on my Ukemi, but calling them clips "real Aikido"....??? Is there such things as "real" and "not real Aikido"? Is it because the execution of the techniques harder and more violent made they look more....realistic? :eek:
Also the clip before "Dragoljub Noveski clips", the grandmaster dressed like a ninja when it was titled "real aikido"... interesting....

batemanb
01-25-2007, 04:06 AM
Some of the stuff looked OK, but looked like a lot of extra "OOMF" TM. being added to the waza. Did like the ninin dori mentioned above by eyrie.

Missed the Grandmaster Ninja clip at first, but we are talking about these boys right?

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7281&highlight=World+Centre+Real+Aikido

TonyI
01-25-2007, 06:21 AM
Very Nice Videos. I Also Liked The Clips With Nagi In Handcuffs, Gives Me Some Good Ideas For Training.
Tony

Dazzler
01-25-2007, 08:00 AM
It looks like fun.

No more "Real" than anything else to me though...if those strikes are so "real" why does the guy keep getting up?...unless their real strikes are ineffective..in which case they are real! ;-)

As a demonstration to show Aikido in a manner that enables someone with limited knowledge of aikido and fighting to get some ideas of where more standard dojo practice could go then its not bad really.

I also liked the two man stuff...nice movement and the intention seems clear enough.

Whether there is any Aikido there I wouldn't like to say - its all done very quickly with ukes that have learned to go with the technique. Typical demo stuff for the "technique focussed" party really.

Then again...dojo practice is one thing, I think everyone accepts that what is done outside of the dojo will not be the same as that which is done inside. Effectiveness generally being the primary concern. So to me it just looks like the demo has attempted to move closer to outside of the dojo stuff.

When this happens invariably the distinctions between Aikido and its aiki jutsu / ju jutsu roots get a little blurred...after all, who cares about developing their centre when someone is trying to carve you a new face?.

Perhaps this leaves the question whether this is a demonstration that has been moved from more standard Aikido practice...or this is exactly as they always practice aikido.

Not sure I could answer that - or even want to. What they do is their business.

As I say...it looks like fun and I enjoyed some of the clips.

We'd need to meet on the mat for me to have any more to say than that.

Regards

D

MM
01-25-2007, 08:34 AM
According to here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7281

Post #19 explains the "realni" translation.

No, it's not not "real" in that sense, the meaning of that word should be interpreted as "realistic" or "applicable". He does not imply that traditional aikido is fake, he's just saying that his version is of more use on the street.

batemanb
01-25-2007, 09:00 AM
According to here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7281

Post #19 explains the "realni" translation.


That's the same thread I posted above :D

Dazzler
01-25-2007, 09:35 AM
According to here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7281

Post #19 explains the "realni" translation.

In which case I'll revise my post...

No more "more use on the street" than anything else to me though...if those strikes are so "more use on the street" why does the guy keep getting up?...unless their "More use on the street" strikes are ineffective..in which case they are NOT "more use on the street" :D

:crazy:

MM
01-25-2007, 09:54 AM
That's the same thread I posted above :D

Crud, sorry, missed that.

Mark

jovan80
01-25-2007, 11:12 AM
Hello

Obviously there is a variance in skills with each of the people demonstrating, but I particularly liked the ones with the handcuffs (nadcops)... (good demo of taijutsu skills) also Dragoljub Noveski's 2-person randori was pretty good - nice use of ma-ai and timing

All of people on these videos (only two of them have higher rank) are 1.-2. dan.
No one is practicing more then 9 years except Dragoljub Noveski and Bratislav Stajic(they are high rank)

I liked the performance in clips, the Ukes in those videos are always a motivation for me to train harder on my Ukemi, but calling them clips "real Aikido"....??? Is there such things as "real" and "not real Aikido"? Is it because the execution of the techniques harder and more violent made they look more....realistic?
Also the clip before "Dragoljub Noveski clips", the grandmaster dressed like a ninja when it was titled "real aikido"... interesting....

Well I have the same problem with the name. People always asking me ‘What means real aikido? Am I practicing something fake for 20 years ?’ The better translation is realistic.
And another thing. The name is ‘realni’ that does not mean that you always have to do ‘real things’ ,street fight. These videos presents only school techniques. It is nothing for street fight in them. That ‘ninja’ is not Grandmaster. Ljubomir Vracarevic is not on the videos. That ‘ninja’ is someone from the special forces. It was some ceremony and special forces were asked to come.(Ljubomir Vracarevic and Bratislav Stajic have a lot of experience in training special units)

‘Whether there is any Aikido there I wouldn't like to say - its all done very quickly with ukes that have learned to go with the technique. Typical demo stuff for the "technique focussed" party really’

Videos are demo. Ukes did not learn to go with the techniques believe me. Look at these videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyx8jv6TNN0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yxs0U5QoFI

The man wrote: I cooperate to the degree that I have been asked to in many aikido sc
In our style the basic thing is strike (attack) The uke job is to remember his attacks and to attack you as hard as he can. He does not now what is tori going to do. But he mast attack him as tori is his biggest enemy. Tori’s job is to control that attack and he can go soft or hard but uke must attack hard. Second thing is that in many style uke run (follow) with tori that is wrong because if he do that he is going to be defeat very easy and tori can make a mistake and still defeat uke. Boxer will not do that. If you tray to do some techniques whit someone who is really strong and flexible you will find that you have to do every little part correctly.

Then again...dojo practice is one thing, I think everyone accepts that what is done outside of the dojo will not be the same as that which is done inside. Effectiveness generally being the primary concern. So to me it just looks like the demo has attempted to move closer to outside of the dojo stuff

I agree with this. But when you get 1.dan you should be good. That means that you must be able to show that always. It is not possible that you have 1. dan and one day gay how trained boxing or bjj for one or two year is much better in fight than you. You must be able to defeat him.

We'd need to meet on the mat for me to have any more to say than that.

I completely agree agree with this.

If you have any questions I will be happy to answer.

Talon
01-25-2007, 01:50 PM
I enjoyed watching those clips. This is my preference of training and we do more of this type of training at my dojo. A bit lighter perhaps but we try all kinds of attacks and are encouraged to use ateme prior to the technique and if necessary after.

Dirk Hanss
01-25-2007, 03:19 PM
I liked them, too. To me it looks like high quality fast aikido.

Sometimes it is funny to see nage first killing uke on the ground (full punch to the face or throat and then pinning him.

Why should someone pin a dead uke?

Cheers Dirk

Ron Tisdale
01-25-2007, 03:30 PM
So you can have your uke, and eat him too??? :D

Sorry, couldn't help it...

B,
R

Don_Modesto
01-25-2007, 03:48 PM
what do you think about this videos?You mean ignoring the implied slight "real" aikido written all over them?

er...what is it you think we do?

But, fwiw, the RANDORI seemed kind of frantic with a lot of cooperation from UKE.

I enjoyed some of the variations, a choke and a pin come to mind.

Thanks for posting them and alerting us here.

charyuop
01-25-2007, 04:06 PM
In our style the basic thing is strike (attack) The uke job is to remember his attacks and to attack you as hard as he can. He does not now what is tori going to do. But he mast attack him as tori is his biggest enemy. Tori's job is to control that attack and he can go soft or hard but uke must attack hard. Second thing is that in many style uke run (follow) with tori that is wrong because if he do that he is going to be defeat very easy and tori can make a mistake and still defeat uke. Boxer will not do that. If you tray to do some techniques whit someone who is really strong and flexible you will find that you have to do every little part correctly.

I am not a big expert as in I don't have knowledge of all different styles of Aikido and their differences, but sometimes it seems that people picture some Aikido "good" and some "bad". I have read some poeple criticizing Aikikai not to be "martial" enough, other criticizing Ki society to be to hard and not enough armony...
Personally I think it is all up to the person you train with. Having a good Uke is 90% of Aikido, no matter what style of Aikido you do. If your Uke goes down at the first breath he feels from you (and not talking about kokyunage hee hee) it does more damage than good to Nage/Tori. I personally, Aikikai school, like my Uke. They help till they see my posture starts being correct, after that if I am not doing correctly what I am supposed to do they are like statues.
Even the attacks we perform are very real. It happened right yesterday that a new beginner froze while I was punching him and to stop in time I almost ran over him. Sometimes to check Uke attacks for real Nage don't do anything and let himself hit to check the "intention" of the attack.
I think it is always on the Sensei and not the style. Sensei is the one who has to correct things so that they remain more martial instead of turning the dojo into a "dance" class.
As per the Uke following the technique there is two things to look at. First Uke has to do things to protect himself from getting hurt. This will reflect also in a real street fight...it might more convinient to take a ukemi and facilitate things to the opponent and be able to get up to fight again than risking to break a bone and being at the opponent mercy. Second the technique itself...I make an example. If we are practicing a Kotegaeshi and as a Uke I go down immediately I feel my wrist turning, Nage will learn the technique up to there. If I follow the movement, Nage will have to do a complete movement, thus learning how to step and move.

Just my 2 cents...

Chris Birke
01-25-2007, 04:53 PM
If you punch a guy on the ground in the face he's pretty much dead.

xuzen
01-25-2007, 11:12 PM
Bravo bravo (clap, clap, clap)... these demos are more my cup of tea.

Boon.

Dirk Hanss
01-26-2007, 03:50 AM
So you can have your uke, and eat him too??? :D

Sorry, couldn't help it...

B,
R
My sensei would say: "Yes , you can. You might run short of uke. That is why we do it differently."

Then there were some explanations about difference between jutsu and DO, which I never understood :D

Have fun

Dirk

Dazzler
01-26-2007, 05:52 AM
I agree with this. But when you get 1.dan you should be good. That means that you must be able to show that always. It is not possible that you have 1. dan and one day gay how trained boxing or bjj for one or two year is much better in fight than you. You must be able to defeat him.


Hi

As I said ..I enjoyed the clips and i'll add that to me there is some good skill there.

I'm intersted in your stance with the above quote.

Do you think then that this is the only measure of Aikido? to win fights?

What then differenciates Aikido from all other "fighting" styles? Is there something more ...or not?

Just curious.

Thanks

D

jovan80
01-26-2007, 06:51 AM
Do you think then that this is the only measure of Aikido? to win fights?

What then differenciates Aikido from all other "fighting" styles? Is there something more ...or not?

afcorse not.The point is to avoid fight always and I mean ALWAYS.But in the same time you must be able to defeat enemy.Morihei Ueshiba was maybe the greatest master ever.What he did at the end of life was soft aikido (great aikido but soft),but he was in condition to defeat evry enemy even more enemies at the same time.Even if we are attacked we sholud run and never stay and fight, but in the same time we should be in condion to defeat enemy.

Freerefill
01-26-2007, 07:35 AM
Defeat your enemy as in "protect yourself from harm", but another enemy in aikido is ourselves, our own negative emotions. Defeating the enemy involves taking down your attacker but also defending yourself against your hatred of the attacker and your instinctual desire to harm him the way he's trying to harm you. So yes, if the shit hits the fan it would be great if you're wearing a HAZMAT suit, but also consider why the fan is on before the shit hits it and why, exactly, you're upset about naught but a dirty HAZMAT suit.

At least, that's my opinion. I could be wrong.

~M

Dazzler
01-26-2007, 08:11 AM
afcorse not.The point is to avoid fight always and I mean ALWAYS.But in the same time you must be able to defeat enemy.Morihei Ueshiba was maybe the greatest master ever.What he did at the end of life was soft aikido (great aikido but soft),but he was in condition to defeat evry enemy even more enemies at the same time.Even if we are attacked we sholud run and never stay and fight, but in the same time we should be in condion to defeat enemy.

In full agreement that aikido should work....but not everyone will be top performer so we can only do our personal best.

The above leads to the question ...Why did he do "soft" Aikido?

Was it that he was too old and could not train in the harder style of his youth?

Or was it that he saw some additional progression that could only be achieved through softer practice?

I don't personally know of course - I can see a lot of sense in training as hard and as close to your personal edge while you can with an expectation that time will slow you down in the end.

But I've seen and felt some very soft looking aikido that would be very effective against the vast majority of street opponents.

These days Aikidowise I don't judge it until I feel it. A lot of noise and sweat may be just that...and a lot of soft practice may also be just that. Either could be very effective indeed ...it really does come down to the individual in the end.

What are they prepared to do?

my stance here is that there is just Aikido.

To add street , real or anything else to me is superflous ...unless one is suggesting that aikido alone is not good enough.

Please understand, I'm just thinking aloud really, the more Aikido I do the more I realise there is to learn so who knows what I'll believe after the next 15 years practice.

Regards

D

jovan80
01-26-2007, 09:46 AM
here are some more videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OObphPAsEQw



Dragoljub Noveski
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOSeyma0JfY

Radojica Spasojevic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsf0DiTaRmM

Bratislav Stajic:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBna7rD4OMU i
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-60KZSm7X94 braca
2.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amCi5zXvg_g braca
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV2xcv7R-wU braca

and this is dziu waza with knif and baseball bat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMve0brGEqE

batemanb
01-27-2007, 02:51 AM
here are some more videos


and this is dziu waza with knif and baseball bat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMve0brGEqE


Why doesn't he take away the weapons?

Even though it's a randori, I'd take away the weapons if I could. Makes a good show, but take away the baseball bat when dealing with the first attack and knife man two will think hard about what he does, as will baseball man if /when he gets up.