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Darren
01-19-2007, 01:30 PM
thtp://youtube.com/watch?v=UDiRA7ldmcs
ha ha ha
back to earth we think

Steven
01-19-2007, 01:59 PM
thtp://youtube.com/watch?v=UDiRA7ldmcs
ha ha ha
back to earth we think


Hope your aikido is not as bad as the url you posted.

Erik Calderon
01-19-2007, 02:17 PM
Could you please repost the URL? I'd love to see it.

Erik Calderon
Aikido ShinKiKan.

Tinyboy344
01-19-2007, 02:49 PM
You video has proved... nothing bcuz it's not available!

xuzen
01-19-2007, 08:02 PM
thtp://youtube.com/watch?v=UDiRA7ldmcs
ha ha ha
back to earth we think

Your internet-do is weak grass-hopper.

Boon.

PhilMyKi
01-20-2007, 01:57 AM
I thought I would hijack this thread with a video ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc

Watch this then watch this vs 'young karate guy'

:)

senshincenter
01-20-2007, 02:27 AM
Here's a better angle on that second video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jf3Gc2a0_8

Hilarious!

I guess the truth really does hurt.

dmv

PhilMyKi
01-20-2007, 02:48 AM
I would love to know if the young lad got his money? :D

Mark Uttech
01-20-2007, 02:54 AM
Hmmm... Another meaningless thread as online discussion runs into another video ambush.

In gassho

Mark

stelios
01-20-2007, 03:21 AM
Where is the point (if any) on anything? That karate kid can ridicule hocus pocus grandpa live?
Please, people, please !

Josh Reyer
01-20-2007, 05:55 AM
Look! The young karate guy grabbed his wrist! I thought nobody in their right mind ever attacked like that. ;) :D

Guilty Spark
01-20-2007, 07:09 AM
Ahhh, every time I begin to think there is hope for humanity, and especially the youth of the world, I watch a video on youtube and then read the posted comments.

statisticool
01-20-2007, 08:56 AM
Where is the point (if any) on anything? That karate kid can ridicule hocus pocus grandpa live?
Please, people, please !

The many people in the MA 'train' in a fantasy land, doing things that won't work at all in real life?

That seems to be very valuable lesson.

senshincenter
01-20-2007, 10:23 AM
Forget about martial technique, etc., both practitioners got a lot of work to do in my opinion. So, yes, it is kind of pointless to sit from afar and say "this" or "that" in that regard. However, there are huge lessons here, and even huger questions that could and should be asked. In my opinion, it's those lessons and questions that should be on the mind of every martial artist - WITH OR WITHOUT THIS VIDEO - all of the time.

The video only brings us back to what we all are supposed to be doing in this regard. They are a kind of a "pointer" in that way. They (pointers) are not necessary, but they do the job just fine. So they can be very helpful. What is it these things point to? Of course many things, but key is this: The lines between pride and humility, between ignorance and wisdom, and between love and fear are as thin as our will to power is penetrating.

This is no easy thing - to be an artist of violence, to make an art out of violence. Chances are one is more likely to "f" it all up than to reach the point of reconciliation than the founder of the art did. Not many folks, throughout history, can say that they have found "x" (e.g. peace and harmony) by looking for it in its opposite (e.g. violence).

With a task so difficult to achieve, it would seem that one should be very mindful of those human elements that lead one to have less clarity in his/her vision and/or subjectivity (e.g. a lust for power, fear, pride, and ignorance). If these things do not become and remain at the forefront of one's training concerns, well, in my opinion, you get a training life that is filled with moments (and micro-moments) of what can be seen in these three videos - from start to finish, on both sides.

In other words, this discussion can be as silly or as serious as one is ready to let desire, fear, pride, and ignorance go unnoticed or noticed in one's own life. The point of looking at these videos and discussing them, in my opinion, should be to determine, for oneself, where one is doing the exact same thing (in one version or another) in one's own training.

dmv

Guilty Spark
01-20-2007, 12:09 PM
Did we see the same video?

I'm having trouble trying to figure out the point your trying to make my friend.

Speaking of silly and serious I think you'll find the latter completly lacking in that clip.

tenshinaikidoka
01-20-2007, 04:06 PM
It is not the art but the person who uses the art. It has always been that way and to continue to debate and or riducule martial artists, in my opinion, is a waste of breath,typing and reading!!!! I practise a certain way, and I use my art for my job as well as defense off the job. It has yet to fail me and I have had to use it in many different and interesting situations.

But, that is only me, and not everyone!!!!

senshincenter
01-20-2007, 04:20 PM
Well, here's one way that a person could look at this as a pointer...

The first time the elder gentleman was hit in the face by the younger one, you could see the shock on his face and in his body language. This shock, I would suggest by the cues that were present, was not just from the "miracle" of being struck, or even from some rule the younger gentleman might have broken, etc. That shock was from the NEWNESS of the experience - if not from the rarity of the experience. That experience here is pain or the sensation of soft tissue reacting to a stressing energy of some kind. Folks that get hit all the time, well, they don't react like that at all. Here's the thing: When the guy practices his ki projections, his students time and time again react as if they are suffering some sort of stressing energy (at least) at the level of soft tissue. In other words, folks act like they are being hit. They are not at all acting like they are experiencing some other kind of "out of this world" energy. Don't get me wrong - I realize they are not really being hit - I realize that no touch is involved - but they ARE acting as if that is the energy they are experiencing. Well, if that is the case, why should the teacher of such a tradition be so shocked when he's actually struck? Shouldn't that experience be old-hat in a tradition that so eagerly attempts to blur the line between being struck (touched) and not being touched - at least at the level of soft tissue being stressed by energy? For me, even when you allow all the assumptions to be granted whatever level of truth they may claim, we are still looking at a huge inconsistency here. The man should not have been so un-used to being struck - to having his soft tissue stressed by energy.

For me, it is doubtful that this person is the only one making such inconsistencies in his training, just as it is doubtful that this is his only one. I bet that I have such inconsistencies as well - not this exact one, but at least ones very similar in concept or in structure. I would say we all do. This is the nature of subjective truth - that it survives in its limited practicality by seeking to universalize itself through self-delusion. My job then, or at least one of my main jobs, as a martial artist, is to find out where these inconsistencies might be, knowing that they will never be obvious to me - that they will resist me gaining clarity over them until the very end. Along the way, this is going to have me acting very silly - other times very seriously.

Again, I would propose that there is much to talk about when we use these videos as tools of self-reflection. There is much more going on here that some young guy kicking the crap out of some old man (though that obviously happened too).

dmv

tenshinaikidoka
01-20-2007, 04:59 PM
Exactly, it is how the person trains!!!!!!! If there is a flaw to something you find the flaw and you try and fix it. I hope that was what my post stated, if it was taken another way, I apologize!

senshincenter
01-20-2007, 06:05 PM
Yes, what you say makes sense. I agree. However, at the same time, it seems natural to ask how all those folks (not just "why") bought into all this stuff and then to wonder what all we (I) buy into. Why all the jumping around? Why the need to beat up on an old man? Why the cash prize and gathering all your "friends" to see you humiliated? Who made changes, if any, after that night? Who stayed the same? What does it take for both? Weird stuff is going on - going on unnoticed (my opinion) - which is the only way weird stuff can go on.

tenshinaikidoka
01-20-2007, 07:21 PM
I completly agree with you Mr. Valadez.

senshincenter
01-20-2007, 09:27 PM
Please call me "Dave" - I'd be thankful. :-)

darin
01-21-2007, 03:04 AM
I saw this on tv when I was in Tokyo. He's also some kind of martial arts master.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvOaO_WXd6w

Kevin Leavitt
01-21-2007, 03:18 AM
David V wrote:

Yes, what you say makes sense. I agree. However, at the same time, it seems natural to ask how all those folks (not just "why") bought into all this stuff and then to wonder what all we (I) buy into.

Here is the semi-scientific/pyschological answer to the question:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

statisticool
01-21-2007, 05:48 AM
I saw this on tv when I was in Tokyo. He's also some kind of martial arts master.


True...

stelios
01-22-2007, 05:57 AM
Justin, do you really, I mean deep inside you, reckon that this sort of power a)exists b)can be mastered by everybody c)experienced and demonstrated at will d)override anyones defences no matter what? I still remain sceptical...
I do not discard it but remain sceptical...

statisticool
01-22-2007, 07:40 AM
Justin, do you really, I mean deep inside you, reckon that this sort of power a)exists b)can be mastered by everybody c)experienced and demonstrated at will d)override anyones defences no matter what? I still remain sceptical...
I do not discard it but remain sceptical...

I don't see any sort of "power" being demonstrated, just people playing along.

I bet any one of us could simply walk up to the master, while he's waving his hands around, and pour a glass of water on his head.

tenshinaikidoka
01-22-2007, 05:38 PM
I am sorry, I agree Dave! LOL

senshincenter
01-22-2007, 07:44 PM
:-)

stelios
01-23-2007, 05:05 AM
A glass of water on the head, eh? That would cheer the audience up !
Yet, what about when our "own" O Sensei demonstrated skills like that? Would I have been able to use the above mentioned glass of water on him? Some might say that a higher lever Aikidoka would freeze but somebody else outside Aikido would shower the old man.
Your suggestions?

statisticool
01-23-2007, 10:49 AM
Yet, what about when our "own" O Sensei demonstrated skills like that? Would I have been able to use the above mentioned glass of water on him?


If anyone, O'Sensei included, claimed to be able to move people without touching them, one could do the 'water test' on them to see if they could do it to anyone, or if it was due to suggestion, own students, acting, etc.

jonreading
01-23-2007, 11:43 AM
When I was about five years old, I watched Superman the movie with Christopher Reeves. I was Superman for Halloween and I also fell off my porch attempting to fly like Superman.
Reality reminded me that people don't fly like Superman. Videos such as the ones shown in this thread are the product of reality meeting with fantasy. Sometimes our reality is not what we fantasize.

Kevin Leavitt
01-23-2007, 02:21 PM
You can influence and move people without touching them. Not a difficult thing to do.

senshincenter
01-23-2007, 02:48 PM
Perhaps there are two elements to this, and those two elements are being overlaped and thus mistaken as being the same thing (when they are not).

1) There is the element of ki, ki projection, no-touch, etc.

and,

2) Is #1 martial and/or more superiorly martial and/or able to replace (substitute) for more obviously (mundane/gross) martial tactics.

Maybe a clear division of the two is necessary and more helpful - than going back and forth with personal experience and/or skills, etc., on what is real and/or not real.

just a thought,
dmv

Ron Tisdale
01-23-2007, 02:52 PM
Hi David,

Or just get together and train...it will all come out in the wash. From the vids I've seen of your group, that would be a blast! Don't know as I'd like to see any no-touch-throws attempted... ;)

Best,
Ron

Kevin Leavitt
01-23-2007, 03:16 PM
David V wrote:

Perhaps there are two elements to this, and those two elements are being overlaped and thus mistaken as being the same thing (when they are not).

1) There is the element of ki, ki projection, no-touch, etc.

and,

2) Is #1 martial and/or more superiorly martial and/or able to replace (substitute) for more obviously (mundane/gross) martial tactics.

Maybe a clear division of the two is necessary and more helpful - than going back and forth with personal experience and/or skills, etc., on what is real and/or not real.

just a thought,
dmv

Funny I just commented in another thread in response to Ron, about not putting much stock in videos as we cannot really determine what is going on.

Anyway...

It is difficult to define this stuff via video and/or internet conceptually without experiencing it first hand. Even in real life, we all have different values/perceptions on what we are doing, and might have a hard time coming to grips with various paradigms, mental conditioning, and methods etc.


Martially effectiveness is not necessarily good criteria to judge everything on I think.

What does that term mean....martially effective?

I'd submit that it means to render your opponent unable to physically harm you. PERIOD.

There is no ethical or value judgement that comes in to play here, simply means you are effective at rendering your opponent unable to physically harm you.

You can do this without touching him...or you could use a machine gun.

Therefore, we get into a slippery slope because you could show me something and I'd say, "well, that is not very martially effective!" and Id be right! Because there is always something that will typically be more martially effective.

This is especially true when dealing with an aikido paradigm. There will almost ALWAYS be something that is more martially SAFER (less risk to you) than what you choose to demonstrate from an aikido perspective!

It may not be appropriate for the situation....but it is martially effective if it works.

Martially effective does not really concern with escalation or de-escalation of force...or the degree of force used. It is simply the ability to stop harm.

KI and No touch:

How does this apply to Martial Effectiveness. It might or might not....who knows????

I will tell you that I can influence a situation by martial intent without ever touching a person. I will tell you that it is due to my ability to project my KI.

If I can successfully to this and keep you from harming me, then I would be martially effective. PERIOD.

I have done this, and pretty much do it in varying degrees every day.

I also will say I don't really look like some of those videos I see.

However, philosophically, those people are effective, as they have influenced the people the honestly believe what it happening to them is really happening to them.

Will it work on a non-believer? May be not.

Does my ability to do no-touch, or ki projection work everytime? No. I wish it did!

I can present a good kamae and present a credible threat. An experienced but less skilled opponent may recognize the it is futile to attack me and my no touch/ki works.

a drunk dumb ass, may not recognize this, and now I have to touch him in many imaginative ways that are painful.

The difference is...the fact that I, the practicioner, have common sense, and have the appropriate response for a given situation.

That is what we are training for.

Not putting all your eggs in one basket and having only one game plan for every situation.

also, martially effective may not be the same thing as martially efficient.

statisticool
01-23-2007, 07:59 PM
You can influence and move people without touching them. Not a difficult thing to do.

I'm referring to the kind of things displayed in MA videos on the internet, such as the master waving his fingers from a distance and his students taking a dive or rolling around on the ground.

To do that, for real, is apparently difficult (as in probably impossible).

senshincenter
01-23-2007, 08:49 PM
Hi David,

Or just get together and train...it will all come out in the wash. From the vids I've seen of your group, that would be a blast! Don't know as I'd like to see any no-touch-throws attempted... ;)

Best,
Ron

Hi Ron,

You know you are more than welcome to join us anytime. We'd love to see you. We'd even love to put you and whomever you might bring with you up for however long (guessing most folks would like to have a vacation in Santa Barbara without having any lodging expenses whenever possible). Consider it an open invite my friend.

True, we do not do any no touch throws, "ki projections," etc. Regardless of the many stories that one hears or experiences, etc.,via the Internet, etc., for some reason, you can guess why, they just aren't that practical in law enforcement situations. Go figure. Additionally, and this is just me, I also do not feel they are conducive to the spiritual ends we at our dojo are attempting to cultivate. So we have little reason for pursuing such things in the manner they are being pursued in these videos.

Additionally, I do admonish my students when they do something/anything as a result of their own "guessing" or ignorance and/or of our training culture (since every dojo has one). I tell them point-blank, for kihon waza (which is where all these sorts of problems exist if they do exist at our dojo - because spontaneous training has a truth to it without anyone wanting it or waiting for it) should they even go topsy-turvy because it's easier to roll out of something than to struggle to keep their feet (and maybe landing on your face or stomach as a result), that this is not how we train at our dojo. I openly point out that if I can't throw them myself, make them go topsy-turvy myself (without relying upon my psychological domination over them - which they should always seek to negate), then they should not be training with me - to go somewhere else and find a teacher that can do that. Etc.

Still, I do attempt to train in the underlying elements of what we are seeing in these videos. In other words, I do feel there is something to understanding the psychological influence that one has or can have over an enemy, I do feel there is something to understanding the ura aspects to the more obvious omote aspects of the art, I do feel there is something to the invisible and that this something can often be more important than the visible, I do feel there is something to alternate levels of awareness that work at levels other than the common five senses, I do understand that reality is mind-based, etc., etc., what have you. The difference for me then, or the distinction I like to make, for me mostly, is that while I may understand these things (or seek to), and while I may even say that they are significant to what we seek to do, I never say they are the "heart" or the "end-all," etc., of the art. They are only a part of a larger sense of art and being - one of many. So, I would never expect them to do everything - especially martially speaking. Thus, I try not to dismiss them outright, though I am always very critical of the position that attempts to say that without them one can achieve nothing or that with them one can achieve everything. After all, there's a lot folks can do with a good biceps muscle and 180+ lbs and no one that is on the other end of such a beast is going to be whining about how much more could have been done, etc., if only that arm was connect to Heaven and Earth. Hence, why I drew the distinction - or attempted to - between what is martial effective and what is real.

For me, it's obviously real - we see him wave his hands and his students jump around. We are not imagining that, even if they are imagining something else. However, this does not necessarily make it martially effective, since the imagination of one's opponent only plays a small part in the martial effectiveness of one's own tactics (partially because an opponent's imagination is not so readily controllable). Oh well, let me read more of the thread. I am not sure I'm still being relevant here.

Thanks, will reply more later,
david

Ron Tisdale
01-24-2007, 08:10 AM
Oh no, it was very relevant. I think the dichotomy you discussed is prominant in my own shugyo.

Actually, I do have some friends who also train in your area...so don't be too surprised if one day I am able to accept your generous offer of keiko. Looking forward to it, in fact.

Best,
Ron

Kevin Leavitt
01-24-2007, 01:57 PM
Justin wrote:

I'm referring to the kind of things displayed in MA videos on the internet, such as the master waving his fingers from a distance and his students taking a dive or rolling around on the ground.

To do that, for real, is apparently difficult (as in probably impossible).

It depends.

With someone like Saotome sensei, you will find yourself committing to an attack, only to bail out early because of what you sense that waits you. Again, this is all training, and not to be confused with reality.

In reality, the guy might ignore what we don't in aikido and either he blows through it and takes the advantage, or he gets slammed.

It is hard to tell by watching the videos sometimes what is really going on, again, it is training, and NOT reality. So, should not be compared as such.

I do understand your issues, as I have them too sometimes...it just depends.

senshincenter
01-24-2007, 02:23 PM
One difference here in these two videos however, from what we normally see...

It is not really us (the viewer) that risks or that risked confusing one training culture with another (acknowledging that "reality" is also a training culture). Sure, we can and do often make that mistake as viewers of Internet videos. I fully agree with Kevin on that account. However, here it seems to be that we are the observers of such a mistake and not the folks making the mistake. It is very clear that the older gentleman made said mistake and that we were flies on the wall when he did. The shock in his mind/body language after being nicked the first time (in the second video) offers all the surety a viewer would ever need to know that it was he that was confused about what he was doing and/or not doing. These videos demonstrate confusion more than they entice it.

my opinion,
dmv