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dbotari
01-12-2007, 08:34 AM
On the one hand, we have people discussing a principle based art, with a wide variety of means and methods to teach those principles...all from perfectly valid sources (yoshinkan, aikikai, shodokan, independant).

I know that this has been tried on other discussion boards but I hope that we may see a convergence on this board to the question: What are the priciples of Aikido (two lists 1) Physical and 2) philosophical).

Jun if this is too much of a topic drift feel free to move this post and start a new thread.

Thanks,

Ron Tisdale
01-12-2007, 08:43 AM
There was a very good thread on aikido journal on that very topic. If I get a chance, maybe I can link it to your new thread. On that idea, why not just create a new topic yourself? I'd love to read it, even though I don't have a whole lot to contribute...

Best,
Ron

akiy
01-12-2007, 10:41 AM
Hi Dan,

I have split the thread into two separate threads. In the future, please feel encouraged to start a new thread yourself if you feel that what you feel you wish to discuss is "off topic" from the original thread rather than requesting that I do so, as my time and resources are limited. Your help in maintaining topic sanity within each thread will be appreciated by myself and others here on AikiWeb.

Thanks,

-- Jun

Erick Mead
01-12-2007, 08:22 PM
Here's a start:
"Precautions for Aikido Training."

1. Aikido techniques can be instantly lethal so it is essential to observe the instructor's directions at all times and not engage in contests of strength.

2.Aikido is an art in which "the one" is used to strike "the many." Train yourself to be mindful of attacks coming from four and eight directions.

3. Always train in a vibrant and joyful manner.

4. The instructor can only impart a small portion of the teaching. Only through ceaseless training can you obtain the necessary experience to bring these mysteries alive

5. In daily training, begin with basic movements to strengthen the body without overexertion. Warm up properly, and there will be no fear of injury, even for older people. Enjoy yourself while training and strive to comprehend its true purpose.

6. The purpose of Aikido training is to forge the body and mind and to build one's character. The techniques are transmitted from person to person on an individual basis, and should not be disclosed indiscriminately to outsiders, nor used for evil purposes.

eyrie
01-12-2007, 08:40 PM
I think Dan means principle as in basic truths or assumptions rather than principle as in rules of conduct.... ;)

Erick Mead
01-12-2007, 09:20 PM
I think Dan means principle as in basic truths or assumptions rather than principle as in rules of conduct.... ;)Good conduct is not a principle? :D I would even go so far as to say that bad conduct is an indication of a problem with a basic truth.

Kevin Leavitt
01-13-2007, 02:45 AM
No, good conduct is a behavior....something we do to acheive a principle.

Mike Galante
01-13-2007, 11:17 PM
Read http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=636 and if you don't understand it, practice untill you do. (long time)
Aikido is in its outer form martial, inner is spiritual. Develop your spirit, fill yoursef with ki everyday, make that important, and technique secondary.
Don't let your mind or ego lead you astray.
This is the way to happiness.
All the Best

Kevin Leavitt
01-14-2007, 05:11 AM
So, based on this article the GOAL of aikido is Harmony. Harmony is defined as acheiving Oneness with God.

So what are the principles based on the endstate of acheiving Oneness with God?

(for purposes of this discussion, God is defined in many ways, which I think irrelevant to the discussion. He can be a deity, a personification, or defined as the universe. Each person can define, or percieve God however he/she wants....lets not get into a dogmatic discussion on what IS God)

Jorge Garcia
01-14-2007, 05:20 AM
My teacher said that the 5 principles of Aikido are:
1) Build up the body.
2) Learn the techniques.
3) Go with the flow.
4) Learn to concentrate your energy.
5) Learn to take away weapons.

Best wishes,

eyrie
01-14-2007, 06:11 AM
Ya want principles? Everyone's got principles... :D

Our very own Aikiweb:
http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/principles

Shudokan version:
http://www.aikidoshudokan.com/aikido_principles.htm

I haven't read this book, so I can't comment on it, but you can't go past the obvious title:
http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Aikido-Mitsugi-Saotome/dp/0877734097

Mochizuki's take:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=457

Some guy called Fredriech Kemler:
http://www.8ung.at/aikikai-wien/eprinzip.htm

Rod Kobayshi's take:
http://omlc.ogi.edu/aikido/talk/kobayashi/principles.html

Richard Ostrofsky's (pretty good) article:
http://www.usadojo.com/pdf-files/on-the-principles-of-aikido.pdf

Not sure who wrote this, but it's an interesting take:
http://britishaikido.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=37&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

And of course, good ol Aikido FAQ...
http://www.aikidofaq.com/principles.html

There were more, but I think this sufficiently illustrates the point... ;)

Kevin Leavitt
01-14-2007, 07:19 AM
Illutstrates the point to me, that alot of people have their own take on the principles, but yet, don't really understand, or have not unified or codified them in any way that is understandable, or agreeable. Maybe this is why we have so much confusion and discussion as we cannot agree at the most basic level what we are all about.

It'd be a wonderful exercise to try and establish this here!

Mark Uttech
01-14-2007, 08:20 AM
Trying to establish categories is a big mistake.

Kevin Leavitt
01-14-2007, 08:28 AM
why is that Mark?

Otherwise, we can all just do what we want and call it aikido right? Lots of people doing that I believe!

There must be a universal set of principles under there somewhere right?

Sort of like not wanting to go into that closet that we have not cleaned out in years I suppose.

Erick Mead
01-14-2007, 01:53 PM
So, based on this article the GOAL of aikido is Harmony. Harmony is defined as acheiving Oneness with God.

So what are the principles based on the endstate of acheiving Oneness with God? ummmm -- Good Conduct??

Kevin Leavitt
01-14-2007, 05:05 PM
No I still think good conduct is a behavior, or at least depending on your definition.

harmony would be the mid point between right and wrong correct? a balance.

I know we are getting somewhat esoteric, but good behavior would imply that there is an opposite (bad behavior), so if there was a principle..it would simply be behavior...and that does not make sense to me.

To me, it might be something like respect...but I think that would be a value, and NOT a princple.

eyrie
01-14-2007, 06:16 PM
Perhaps it would be helpful if we looked at what each of the above links has in common and identified a few which go toward explaining the fundamental reasons or workings in terms of the laws of "nature"....

Erick Mead
01-14-2007, 10:27 PM
... harmony would be the mid point between right and wrong correct? a balance. ...good behavior would imply that there is an opposite (bad behavior), so if there was a principle, it would simply be behavior...and that does not make sense to me. Harmony by mid-point is like "half-pregnant" -- it is not really an intermediate-category type of thing. Bad behavior is, pretty much, not harmonious. Good behavior -- by and large -- is in harmony.

The qualifiers are only added because appearances can be deceiving ... Surgeons make this habit of gutting people like fish, but they really are usually behaving well when they do that. Budo can be like that also. But there are bad doctors just like there are wicked warriors.

Erick Mead
01-14-2007, 10:41 PM
Perhaps it would be helpful if we looked at what each of the above links has in common and identified a few which go toward explaining the fundamental reasons or workings in terms of the laws of "nature"....There are only five questions in human existence. "Who?" "What?" "When?" "Where? "and "Why?"

"How?" -- (which is the usual objection at this point) is a compilation of the what/where/when trinity for a given purpose)

Figuring how to apply those questions to a given situation is the artistic part. It generally pays to frame one's questions carefully, before seeking answers to them too soon.

For our purposes I would phrase the questions:

"Who is aikido for?"

"What makes something aikido?"

"When do you know something is aikido?"

"Where does aikido happen?"

"Why practice aikido?"

Principle is defined as: "A fundamental assumption" or "rule used to choose among solutions to a problem," a "moral rule or aspect," "a fundamental essence, particularly one producing a given quality."

So, I guess the problem is whether there is a single principle that serves as a fundamental basis for answering each of those questions, or whether the best we can hope for in terms of fundamental aikido principle is a set of five major themes or issues.

Aikido typically involves both internal state and external action, so there may be both projective and reflective aspects to the answers of what ever number.

eyrie
01-15-2007, 12:58 AM
Well, hapkido has distinct principles like the Water principle, the principle of circularity...
Jujitsu has principles like that of yielding/pliancy, as well as circularity...
.... and so on so forth.

Principle can also mean How things work - as in principle of the internal combustion engine - we need not ask the whys, when and wherefores.... we just want to know how the @#$& thang works....
;)

Kevin Leavitt
01-15-2007, 01:22 AM
I agree Ignatius. I did look through the articles, and I am looking through some books. It becomes more and more cofusing as I go through the material. It may take a couple of days of thought on this one!

On the whole half pregnant thing Eric, I understand, but I think we are dealing with something other than binary logic here maybe? I don't know....I will have to think about this alot more!

Michael Cardwell
01-15-2007, 04:17 AM
I remember hearing from my sensei that the 4 principles of Aikido, according to Tohei, were:

1. Unbendable arm.
2. One point.
3. Living calmness.
4. Weight underside.

not necessarily in that order though. :)

Mark Freeman
01-15-2007, 05:17 AM
I remember hearing from my sensei that the 4 principles of Aikido, according to Tohei, were:

1. Unbendable arm.
2. One point.
3. Living calmness.
4. Weight underside.

not necessarily in that order though. :)

Hi Michael,

as far as I am aware Tohei's 4 priciples/rules for "co-ordination of mind and body" (not aikido) were:-

1. Keep one point
2. Relax completely
3. Weight underside
4. Extend your mind

Ki Society members please confirm/correct if this is/not the case, cheers.

regards,

Mark

Erick Mead
01-15-2007, 09:13 AM
On the whole half pregnant thing Eric, I understand, but I think we are dealing with something other than binary logic here maybe? I don't know....I will have to think about this alot more! Logic proceeds from assumptions and usually is aimed at a definitional state. Aikido is a transformative logic, a dynamic, where a "bad" behavior (violence) becomes transformed into something else.

Ueshiba said that Aikido is a spirit of loving protection. Examine this, critically. If one assumes that two invidividuals in peak condition and with letter-perfect martial training were to seek to kill one another, then, logically, the expected end of this is ai-uchi, a mutual killing.

What then moves beyond this logic? Obviously, luck plays a part -- but leave that for a moment. What is different about aikido?

Simply -- love.

If my desire is not my enemy's death, but to protect him from his own inevitable death he has called out, other resources are found. Those resources are not within reach of my selfish calculations to kill the other guy. They are antithetical to the premise. Train to be the killer and they will be forever beyond your reach, by the nature of the logic you have created. Slip into the role of killer for a moment and they will slip through your fingers in an instant.

As for me, my living or dying is not the point, but, it should be noted that I cannot usually save him if I am already dead -- while I can usually kill him if I also die. Funny thing about such logic.

As to luck -- who is to say she does not play favorites? Generally speaking, luck favors the living over the dead.

Kevin Leavitt
01-15-2007, 09:46 AM
So maybe one of the principals of aikido is:

Universal Love?

Erick Mead
01-15-2007, 10:22 AM
So maybe one of the principals of aikido is:

Universal Love?Without objection.

Now, what questions can it NOT answer? There we will find the need for another statement of principle.

Mike Galante
01-15-2007, 10:39 AM
Kevin,
We bow to your wisdom.
Mike

Michael Cardwell
01-16-2007, 03:09 AM
Hi Michael,

as far as I am aware Tohei's 4 priciples/rules for "co-ordination of mind and body" (not aikido) were:-

1. Keep one point
2. Relax completely
3. Weight underside
4. Extend your mind

Ki Society members please confirm/correct if this is/not the case, cheers.

regards,

Mark


Hey Mark,

So...it looks like I was close to getting them right :) Where are the Ki poeple when you need um?

Michael.

Mike Galante
01-18-2007, 09:49 PM
Principles of Aikido? That's easy. Easy to say, ridiculously hard to attain.

Get enlightened.
Display love and compassion even in the face of death.

Simple.

tedehara
01-19-2007, 08:09 PM
Hi Michael,

as far as I am aware Tohei's 4 priciples/rules for "co-ordination of mind and body" (not aikido) were:-

1. Keep one point
2. Relax completely
3. Weight underside
4. Extend your mind

Ki Society members please confirm/correct if this is/not the case, cheers.

regards,

Mark
Four Basic Principles

Keep One Point.
Relax Completely.
Weight is underside
Extend Ki. (Ki is extended)
Extend Ki was modified because Extend Ki indicated that ki extension was an action. The thinking at the Ki Society Hdqrs. is that ki extension is something that is - a state of being, rather than something you do. Therefore you always extend Ki.

If you want principles for Aikido:

Five Principles of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido (Ki Aikido)

Ki is extending.
Know your opponent's mind.
Respect your opponent's Ki.
Put yourself in your opponent's place.
Lead with confidence.


If you want to verify Ki Society principles, just look at Ki Society Principles (http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/kisocietyprinciples) on AikiWeb. If you want to check out other principles from other styles just look at Aikido Principles (http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/principles) on AikiWeb in the AikiWiki section.

racingsnake
10-24-2008, 12:37 PM
Referring back to Erick Mead's excellent post, in which he quoted O Sensei's principles, I wonder if anyone can help me with this. No. 3 is the famous exhortation that we should

"Always train in a vibrant and joyful manner"

Like the rest of the list, it is cited in the book "Best Aikido", which I have in (English) translation. However, can anyone give me a Japanese version (transliterated, or kanji + transliterated, but preferably not just kanji...)?

Hope someone can help -

racingsnake