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thinking
01-10-2007, 12:46 PM
:do: Well i think that a few of the things i have been shown in the aikido classes would be able to be used in the streets. granted i have only been in the class for a few days now. i don't know if you get more things later on in ranks. I'm assuming that you do. but wanted to know what others where thinking about this say if you have 2yrs or more training please post back. :ai:

Ron Tisdale
01-10-2007, 12:58 PM
Aikido has multiple uses and applications outside of the dojo. Training reveals this to you over time. Others telling you about it...not so much.

Best,
Ron

mickeygelum
01-10-2007, 01:09 PM
There is so much street application of what you will learn..give it time and diligent training...the best awaits you.

Michael

Kevin Leavitt
01-10-2007, 01:12 PM
I am not sure I am following your question. Is it Dojo VS Street, or do you learn more things in aikido later on after 2 years.


I know you are new and enthusiastic. Here is some things that may help.

1. Please do a search through the thousands of threads and post here on aikiweb to find things that are realitive to the questions you have. I bet that your initial questions will be close to many that have already been answered by others. If not, or you have a different angle on the same question...you are then prepared to discuss it from a position of greater knowledge.

2. Figure out what it is you want or expect out of aikido. We all have expectations of ourselves, the world, and aikido. Sometimes they all don't line up. (discontent) sometimes they do (harmony). Is it MOST important that you learn to defend yourself on the street, and not so important that you learn the internal lessons of budo? This one may take you years to answer, and the answer may change many times.

I have found no hidden techniques in aikido, nor things that are taught to advanced students and NOT to beginners, although you may not do as much or as fast on the first day or couple of months/years.

The difference is not the techniques....but the timing and awareness that experience brings you.

As far as the street. It is quite possible that you could learn something on the first day, and then go out on the street and use it successfully. It is also possible to study for years and fail miserably at a technique you could do in your sleep.

Experience (years), should bring you wisdom. That wisdom allows you to expand the choices you have in a situation. In theory the more wisdom you have, the better you are able to have a more appropriate response.

For now, the best thing to do is have fun, have an open mind, take it easy on yourself, and don't be too critical of anything...go to class, experience and enjoy!

Hope this helps.

Mark Gibbons
01-10-2007, 01:20 PM
Thinking,

You might want to search the site. Try using the advanced search function and look for "street" in the title. The topic has been done many times before. Some very recently.

I hope you enjoy your training. My own experience is that just the practice of staying aware is valuable on the sidewalk, bus or what have you.

Mark

mathewjgano
01-10-2007, 01:25 PM
:do: Well i think that a few of the things i have been shown in the aikido classes would be able to be used in the streets. granted i have only been in the class for a few days now. i don't know if you get more things later on in ranks. I'm assuming that you do. but wanted to know what others where thinking about this say if you have 2yrs or more training please post back. :ai:
Hi Matthew, nice name! :D I'm not entirely sure what you're asking though...could you try saying it in another way if I misunderstand you?
I would say it's likely a lot of the things you will learn are useful in a variety of situations. I notice the benefit most regularly when playing sports: Aikido has helped me play tackle football better (I'm usually one of the smallest people on the field) and my dexterety in general. Over time you'll learn more techniques, but the techniques are just a way of practicing and becoming familiar with how to move more efficiently. The most impressive (in my mind at least) times I've used Aikido off the mat, I didn't have time to think about technique. I just sort of felt my way through it automatically...so I wouldn't worry about how many techniques you know, if that's what you're curious about. I know this idea often gets flak, but in my opinion, you ought pay more attention to the principles behind Aikido techniques than to the forms/techniques themselves.
Anyway, hope that's what you were looking for.
Take care,
Matt

mathewjgano
01-10-2007, 01:31 PM
...
Nice post, Kevin! I really liked that.
Take care,
Matt

thinking
01-10-2007, 01:50 PM
Hi Matthew, nice name! :D I'm not entirely sure what you're asking though...could you try saying it in another way if I misunderstand you?
I would say it's likely a lot of the things you will learn are useful in a variety of situations. I notice the benefit most regularly when playing sports: Aikido has helped me play tackle football better (I'm usually one of the smallest people on the field) and my dexterity in general. Over time you'll learn more techniques, but the techniques are just a way of practicing and becoming familiar with how to move more efficiently. The most impressive (in my mind at least) times I've used Aikido off the mat, I didn't have time to think about technique. I just sort of felt my way through it automatically...so I wouldn't worry about how many techniques you know, if that's what you're curious about. I know this idea often gets flak, but in my opinion, you ought pay more attention to the principles behind Aikido techniques than to the forms/techniques themselves.
Anyway, hope that's what you were looking for.
Take care,
Matt

Well its not the moves I'm worried about. i was basically asking if others thought that aikido was Abel to be used in case of a street fight. but by some of the posts i guess this was asked be for so i will just reside from posting and just read. i like to talk about aikido so I'm sorry if i have opened a ? already answered. Thank you to the ones that did reply. :ki:

MM
01-10-2007, 02:07 PM
Well its not the moves I'm worried about. i was basically asking if others thought that aikido was Abel to be used in case of a street fight. but by some of the posts i guess this was asked be for so i will just reside from posting and just read. i like to talk about aikido so I'm sorry if i have opened a ? already answered. Thank you to the ones that did reply. :ki:

There are certain questions that generate as many opinions as
there are people. :) Just a quick top 5 list of questions that generate a multitude of responses.

1. Is Aikido street effective/does it work in real life/will it work outside the dojo/can it be used in a real fight?

2. Which Aikido is real or true? The fluffy bunny or the shodothug? What Ueshiba was doing pre-war or post-war? What Ueshiba the father said or what Ueshiba the son said?

3. What is aiki? ki? kokyu?

4. What's missing from Aikido?

5. Is Aikido more physical or more spiritual?

Ron Tisdale
01-10-2007, 02:15 PM
6. Can you defend yourself in a cage match with Tito Ortiz using Aikido?

B,
R

Kevin Leavitt
01-10-2007, 02:19 PM
7. How long does it take to really become effective with aikido?

thinking
01-10-2007, 02:21 PM
wow ok guys your funny thanks for going off topic....

MM
01-10-2007, 02:21 PM
Wow, I don't know how I missed those two. :)

MM
01-10-2007, 02:23 PM
wow ok guys your funny thanks for going off topic....

It does seem a little silly, doesn't it? But, wait until you do a search and read the threads. :)

thinking
01-10-2007, 02:25 PM
LOL
i will look in to it!!!!

MM
01-10-2007, 02:29 PM
Being serious, I think you have to consider individuals for your answer.

What each person learns and how they use what they've learned determines "effectiveness". Which, in your example, translates as to how well someone can use Aikido "in the streets".

Or think of it this way -- I like to use a vehicle example. My cousin and I like to go 4-wheeling. Now, no matter how much time we spend gaining experience, we can drive the exact same truck and still go about the 4 wheel drive trail very differently. And in some places, we'll do the same thing. Other places we'll do completely different things. One of us will get stuck in a mud hole while the other won't. One of us will get stuck rock crawling up a hill and the other won't. Same truck, two different drivers, and a whole world of choices.

Now, throw in a truck that you really love to drive. Add in some nice tires and lockers and lift kit. Now you've got a better chance at handling that 4 wheel trail.

Substitute any Aikido school for the truck. And then substitute a very good teacher for the tires, lockers, and lift kit. Get the picture?

Mark

Kevin Leavitt
01-10-2007, 02:29 PM
No...actually in all seriousness...please do look...i was going to do the same thing as Mark earlier so you'd have a good list of common questions that come up.

It is not silly to ask these questions when you are starting out, they are geniune and honest, but you don't always get the answer you were hoping for!

jxa127
01-10-2007, 02:36 PM
Matthew,

My instructor has stated that it takes about two years of training in aikido before a student can use his or her skills in a violent encounter with some success. That seems about right to me, based on my own experiences. At the same time, I've been training for seven years, and still feel like a rank beginner in a lot of ways.

Note, that's not the same thing as saying that two years of study would give a student the ability to win a street fight. I'm actually not sure what a "street fight" is, or what "on the street" means. I know it's verbal shorthand for things that happen in the real world outside the dojo, but people seem to have a concrete (pun!) idea of what that means. I don't.

Both times that I've really had to rely on my training in a physical altercation, I was in a house and there was no fighting involved. In both cases, I had to physcially restrain somebody who was high on drugs for his own safety. This situation is about as far removed from the dojo, as I can imagine.

My experiences are probably not typical, but I'm not sure what is typical. My point is that with training and experience, we progress from a very narrow understanding of how to apply techniques (he grabbed my wrist, so I repond with ...) to a much broader understanding and spontaneous application of aikido principles.

As an example, last year, when I had the second physical altercation, I ended up wrapping the other person in a bear hug around his waist and constantly adjusting to his movements to keep him pinned to a couch until help could arrive.

We don't practice "bear-hug couch pins" at my dojo, but I still felt as though I was connecting to his center, disturbing his balance, and maintaining contact. To me, these are the aikido principles I've studied. Others would probably read my description and say that it sounds a lot more like grappling. Okay, but I haven't studied grappling in any depth whatsoever. To me, what I did was aikido -- ugly aikido, and I felt more like uke than nage, but it was effective. As a bonus, neither of us was physically hurt.

My point is that the aikido training methods really do lead to useful skills, and that preconcieved ideas of "life on the street" may not be what you face when you need those skills.

Regards,

-Drew

Ron Tisdale
01-10-2007, 02:41 PM
Excellent post Drew. Now I don't feel so bad about being a smart@$$...

;)

B,
R

jxa127
01-10-2007, 02:43 PM
Thanks, Ron. :D

And anyway, it's better to be a smart a** than a dumb a**. ;)

Regards,

thinking
01-10-2007, 03:19 PM
now Drew that is the kinda things im looking for thanks for that post Awasome job!!!!!!!

Kevin Leavitt :
I was and am looking up the ? You all have posted.

mathewjgano
01-10-2007, 05:48 PM
Well its not the moves I'm worried about. i was basically asking if others thought that aikido was Abel to be used in case of a street fight.
In my opinion, yes it can be, but I would say Aikido training can be misleading. We often practice big movements with a cooperative partner, particularly in the early stages of training, and that seems to make some people think it should always look that way. Against a tough and committed attacker, the movements often become quite small and tight, demanding the kind of precision many of us only wish we had. It wasn't until my senior students (sempai) started exposing the holes in my method that I began to understand this. The basically wait for me to get the gist of a movement before demonstrating the subtleties I am missing.
but by some of the posts i guess this was asked be for so i will just reside from posting and just read.
Yeah, there is a lot of information here on aikiweb and most of it can be found by reading old posts and checking out the various areas here, but (in my opinion) you should still feel free to ask questions as they come up. With few exceptions, I seriously doubt any of us here can say we've asked a question that hasn't at some point already been asked...it's kind of the nature of a forum like this. Still, I would say you can often save a lot of time by browsing first and then asking questions based on that.
i like to talk about aikido so I'm sorry if i have opened a ? already answered. Thank you to the ones that did reply. :ki:
No worries! I'm very much the same way. I know I've often replied to threads most people wished would end and I probably ask more annoying questions than interesting ones...people here are pretty forgiving, though: learning is a process after all.
Gambatte!
Matt

jtsm
01-10-2007, 07:19 PM
Hi Thinking,

I personally believe new threads on common topics is not always a bad thing. People will change their mind over time on their responses so what one person replies on a topic 6 months ago, may have changed in the present after experience.

A good aspect to remember when training is your not only learning how to defend yourself in a scrap. You also become familiar with your strengths and weaknesses. I think one of the most important abilities in a street situation, is to be able to assess the situation, and present yourself right, first impressions count. So after training and learning your limitations you will likely start to naturally show more confidence in yourself. And a seasoned scrapper will spot this a mile away and will re-asses THERE situation. this should actually get you out of more fights then not.

In my younger (less wise) days, I learnt never to judge a book by it's cover, and realized, I should keep my book cover polished as well. I can say personally that being confidant in myself has got me out of a few hairy situations. Which normally would have got trounced.

jtsm

justin
01-11-2007, 03:21 AM
6. Can you defend yourself in a cage match with Tito Ortiz using Aikido?

B,
R


not something in my top ten things i want to try before i die for sure :crazy:

Jorge Garcia
01-11-2007, 04:34 AM
Well its not the moves I'm worried about. i was basically asking if others thought that aikido was Abel to be used in case of a street fight. but by some of the posts i guess this was asked be for so i will just reside from posting and just read. i like to talk about aikido so I'm sorry if i have opened a ? already answered. Thank you to the ones that did reply. :ki:

Stick around Matthew. The street is not a topic you will have to wait around for long. I think it is the number one question people have who join almost any martial art. In our day, I think that when someone joins a martial art, they expect it to be useful on the street, no matter what the art is but the truth is that depending on what the art is, it will have a greater or lesser street value. I have seen people doing Capoeira and it is an odd looking art. I don't think it was made for the street but could certainly have applications. Brazilian Jujitsu is a good art and could be used on the street but if you are in a gang area where fights are not always one on one, there could be a problem. Boxers are very capable with their hands but may face a kicker. Fighters that both kick and box may have that covered but might not be good grapplers. A mixed martial artist might be good in the street unless the other guy has a gun or a knife. One of the best street weapons is a gun but if you use it, your chances of doing a long time in prison and spending a lot of time in a court house trying to get out are really high! The lawyers are expensive too. :eek:
Its a tough question to answer. The threads here will discuss all that because it is what the current group of budoka are interested in. I try to stay off "the street" and away from dangerous places so for me, Aikido works great. I feel fit, healthy, and I have learned a ton in Aikido. If per chance I run into trouble at a mall or a parking lot, I may win or I may lose but when it's over, they will know they ran into someone that was really unusual. My goal though is to do what Funakoshi Sensei said and use the secret teaching of karate and stay away from those situations.
Have a good time on Aikiweb!
Jorge

Mark Freeman
01-11-2007, 05:06 AM
Personally I haven't had to use physical' aikido 'in the street', although I have been in a couple of situations where I could have been in serious trouble had things escalated. So maybe my 'mindset' helped prevent things going any further.

What I have found is that aikido has helped me in the sea (surfing) on the piste (skiing) up a tree (climbing) and in my home (kids and partner) and in the workplace . I spend much more time in these places than I do on the street. :) The benefits of aikido are enormous and my little list I'm sure can be greatly added to.

I guess in the early days, it is natural in any martial art to wonder as to it's effectiveness. It should be to some degree as it is a 'martial' art. However many long term students of any art will tell you that 'street fighting' falls off the radar in time, as you are too busy studying the 'art' to worry about other things.

Kevin's question #7 How long does it take to become effective in aikido? anyone hazard a guess?? :D

regards,

Mark

Gregy
01-12-2007, 05:10 PM
Yes, Aikido can definitely be used in the street. I for one have been in an altercation where i have been grabbed and yes, Aikido is great for that kind of thing.

And that is the beauty of Aikido. You can be grabbed and you don't have to hurt the other person.

Someone else asked about a fight with Tito Ortiz. Well, there is a difference between practicing an art and professional fighting. That is a different path.

Kevin Leavitt
01-13-2007, 01:49 AM
Gregory Smith wrote:

Someone else asked about a fight with Tito Ortiz. Well, there is a difference between practicing an art and professional fighting. That is a different path.

In what ways are they different?

Gregy
01-13-2007, 12:34 PM
If you put a master of any one art (Judo, Karate, Wrestling, Aikido, Boxing) in a fight with a well-rounded 'fighter', the well-rounded fighter statistically will have the advantage.

mathewjgano
01-13-2007, 04:02 PM
If you put a master of any one art (Judo, Karate, Wrestling, Aikido, Boxing) in a fight with a well-rounded 'fighter', the well-rounded fighter statistically will have the advantage.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but where can I find these statistics from which you speak? I mean, the term "master" is pretty subjective, but I consider a master to be quite rare and a position which denotes "well-rounded" abilities; not a rank, though human conventions (such as egotism) tend to change this relationship. I agree with what I think is your point, though: that over-specialization destroys the broad-ranged dynamic which budoka typically seek to develop. Am I understanding you correctly?
Take care,
Matt

mathewjgano
01-13-2007, 04:10 PM
Well, there is a difference between practicing an art and professional fighting. That is a different path.
What about those who practice the art of professional fighting? I'd say two people can practice the same art and find completely different results in addition to the ones they hold in common. At my dojo, there are people who focus on sensitivity and there are people who focus on power and applicability. I'd say it's less about being an artist and more about the posture of one's mind which determines differentiation of paths. Tito Ortiz is an artist in my mind, as is Chuck Lidell and anyone else who studies not only some thing, but their own approach of studying that thing. To my mind, art and pragmatics aren't mutually exclusive.
Take care,
Matt

Kevin Leavitt
01-13-2007, 04:24 PM
Gregory, so is what you are saying that there is a difference between someone who practices an art a few days a week such as aikido, and someone who has made it there profession to be a fighter, soldier, or police officer?

Gregy
01-13-2007, 06:23 PM
Perhaps i am off topic here. If you were to be strong in an art be it Aikido or Karate you would have the advantage on the street with the assumption that the opponent is not trained.

However, if you were to fight someone who fights for a living the assumption is that person studies the strategy of battle and is prepared to make changes during the fight and is trained to do so. For example, if a professional fighter senses that the opponent is very skilled standing (vs. a Karateka), the professional fighter may choose to take the battle to the ground with the assumption that the Karateka would not be trained in Newaza.

Tharis
01-13-2007, 07:07 PM
Perhaps i am off topic here. If you were to be strong in an art be it Aikido or Karate you would have the advantage on the street with the assumption that the opponent is not trained.

However, if you were to fight someone who fights for a living the assumption is that person studies the strategy of battle and is prepared to make changes during the fight and is trained to do so. For example, if a professional fighter senses that the opponent is very skilled standing (vs. a Karateka), the professional fighter may choose to take the battle to the ground with the assumption that the Karateka would not be trained in Newaza.

I wonder how many people there are who wander around "the street" spending their entire lives examining every person they see as a potential rival in a fight?

In other words, I tend to think that when someone tries to attack you, there is usually an intent that is communicated in some way prior to the physical altercation, and that there is usually a modus operandi that precedes the intent. "Street" self defense, I think, is more about neutralizing the reasons and the intent before the physical conflict happens than winning the ensuing fight.

Towards those ends, I think Aikido is very effective when you get into it, maybe moreso than Karate or other more combative arts.

Your mileage may vary.

Gregy
01-13-2007, 07:21 PM
That's a good point Thomas. Plus, from talking to police officer friends of mine, when people attack on the street they can be vicious and use and do things one would not expect.

It really can become complex if you think about it.