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feck
01-10-2007, 05:41 AM
Hi people,

I've been wondering since reading a series of articles on the web about wether you guys, americans that is, really have to pay tax? at all.

The Loophole Papers (http://thepotentialsunlimited.com/LH1.htm)

Heres some responce letters some lady had to and from the IRS when using the techniques described in the above papers:

IRS responses (http://thepotentialsunlimited.com/IRS.htm)

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but will these loopholes work?

Hogan
01-10-2007, 09:48 AM
...I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but will these loopholes work?

NO.

Cady Goldfield
01-10-2007, 10:35 AM
Ooh. Those clever Kolnicovs. :rolleyes:

Their argument is so full of holes, I am amazed that they could prevail in a court. They claim that being "forced" to "give money" to the government is against the Constitution. They forget that thet obtain federal and state protection from foreign attack; and use federal, state and municipal roads and services without paying for them. Now, if the Konicovs were to decide to go "off the grid," live on solar/wind power, grow their own food, protect their own property from invaders and avoid using all public access routes and services, they might have a case. If you use nothing provided by the government at any level, then I believe you shouldn't have to pay taxes. You might have to spend a lot of money assembling your own militia and nuclear arsenal, though, so paying taxes may be more cost effective after all.

From the looks of them -- well fed and dressed -- they appear not to do any of the above. Whom do they think should pay for the services they rely on? If no one paid taxes, the building and maintenance of roads and transport; defense of the country, state, county, municipality, neighborhood and one's own home; and other basic protections would fall squarely on the residents. The central government would cease to exist, lacking a coordinated system of support. It could change the face of existance and cause our huge population to break down into clans and tribal groups, maybe reverting back to the warlord system.

Back when the population was in the tens of thousands, maybe it could be managed. But with hundreds of millions, we'd have fiasco.

But it would make an interesting social experient. :)

Tom Fish
01-10-2007, 11:02 AM
There have been several different groups that have attempted to prove that taxation is unconstitutional. I have not heard of any individuals that have been successful, but I have heard of some of them that were provided with free government housing for a pre-determined number of years.
Best
Tom Fish

Kevin Leavitt
01-10-2007, 11:09 AM
VAT tax in Germany just went to 19% 1 JAN. It sucks.

Mark Freeman
01-10-2007, 11:28 AM
VAT tax in Germany just went to 19% 1 JAN. It sucks.

Hi Kevin,

is that Germany that sucks or the VAT rate :D

regards,

Mark

Hogan
01-10-2007, 12:28 PM
VAT tax in Germany just went to 19% 1 JAN. It sucks.

You guys have income AND VAT, right? What are the tax rates in Germany??

Neil Mick
01-10-2007, 01:06 PM
OK, first, before I respond, understand that I am employing a grain of salt, here. It looks really good (on paper) to fight the IRS, but Congressmen, Greenpeace, and 60 Minutes have all received the bad-end of an IRS audit, often for punitive or political reasons (in Greenpeace's case, it was a hit-job pushed by ExxonMobil).

And so, my argument is in the nature of a "devil's advocate."

Ooh. Those clever Kolnicovs. :rolleyes:

Their argument is so full of holes, I am amazed that they could prevail in a court. They claim that being "forced" to "give money" to the government is against the Constitution. They forget that thet obtain federal and state protection from foreign attack; and use federal, state and municipal roads and services without paying for them. Now, if the Konicovs were to decide to go "off the grid," live on solar/wind power, grow their own food, protect their own property from invaders and avoid using all public access routes and services, they might have a case. If you use nothing provided by the government at any level, then I believe you shouldn't have to pay taxes. You might have to spend a lot of money assembling your own militia and nuclear arsenal, though, so paying taxes may be more cost effective after all.

As I understand it, the argument goes that we pay so many other kinds of taxes that the income tax only pays off the national debt. All the other things you mention are payed by tolls, sales-tax, property taxes, etc.

Back in the '80's I had a Libertarian roommate who was into the "tax revolt" thing (ironically, he was also a nuclear engineer for Westinghouse...you can imagine the arguments we'd have :freaky: ). He said that there were several ways to avoid paying taxes, and that the "no law to pay income taxes" tactic wasn't the most effective. The IRS would simply haul you into tax-court, where a tax-judge would hand out a punishment, based upon hundreds of pages of obscure tax-laws....another universe all its own.

He had an alternative maneuver. Before 1972, the US currency was an exchange for the REAL money of the US...gold. But, after 1972, the US announced that US Federal Reserve notes could not be exchanged for gold. And so, US dollars have no real value, as there is no real thing to exchange, for them.

He used this to get out of paying a speeding-ticket (he kept writing the traffic-court, asking "what is the account of the US? How do I pay this fine? In silver? Sheep?); and he got out of years of paying IRS taxes.

Unfortunately (when I saw him again, years later), the IRS just ignored him (he would have loved a court-battle), and he thusly could not get any kind of credit-rating, and so he could not borrow money to buy a house. In the end, he told me that he was going to capitulate, as he was getting married, and they wanted a house.

So there you are.

Kevin Leavitt
01-10-2007, 01:46 PM
I am not German and I am not subject to their income tax laws, but yes, they do have income taxes as well as the VAT.

Mark Freeman
01-10-2007, 01:57 PM
I am not German and I am not subject to their income tax laws, but yes, they do have income taxes as well as the VAT.

In your stay there Kevin, you must have got out and about a fair bit. Although you probably had no need for their public services. How would you say the Germans are fairing? The do pay quite high taxes, but then they do seem to have some exeptional quality services in return.
Did you make many German friends, what was their take on their tax burden.

Better from the horses mouth than partisan reporting. ;)

Cheers,

Mark

Kevin Leavitt
01-10-2007, 02:21 PM
I am really an outsider, so very ignorant of many aspects.

yes. Healthcare system is better than in the U.S. I think. I had surgery here, and was hospitalized while here as well.

Customer service seems better even in McDonalds or OBI (home depot). People seem more knowledgeable, and are subject matter experts in their fields.

They have more time off from work in the summers for vacation (Urlaub). They seem to have a much better quality of life in respect.

All I can say is I love it here and the life I have had here.

Mark Freeman
01-11-2007, 05:11 AM
I am really an outsider, so very ignorant of many aspects.

yes. Healthcare system is better than in the U.S. I think. I had surgery here, and was hospitalized while here as well.

Customer service seems better even in McDonalds or OBI (home depot). People seem more knowledgeable, and are subject matter experts in their fields.

They have more time off from work in the summers for vacation (Urlaub). They seem to have a much better quality of life in respect.

All I can say is I love it here and the life I have had here.

Worth paying a few extra cents in the euro for then :)

Good luck with your move back to the US

regards,

Mark

Tom H.
01-11-2007, 06:30 AM
He had an alternative maneuver. Before 1972, the US currency was an exchange for the REAL money of the US...gold. But, after 1972, the US announced that US Federal Reserve notes could not be exchanged for gold. And so, US dollars have no real value, as there is no real thing to exchange, for them.A friend of mine worked as a collections lawyer for a while. People like this were called tax protesters or monetary protesters. They have a couple different standard tactics, and the occasional judge will side with them (against, typically, the IRS or credit card companies).