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akiy
09-11-2001, 08:59 AM
11:00am Eastern Time:

Both towers of the World Trade Center in New York have now collapsed and imploded from two planes (the second of which was reportedely a 767) supposedly being hijacked and flown right into them. The Pentagon was also attacked and is now in flames with a plane crashing into it; a portion of the west side of the building has collapsed. The White House has been evacuated. All flights in the US have been grounded by the FAA and all flights in the air now diverted and told to land. Supposedly, another plane has now been hijacked in the air and is now reportedly circling Washington DC. A large plane has crashed reportedly in western Pennsylvania near Pittsburgh.

This is an incredibly horrific situation here, but one thing to keep in mind, folks, is that any of the reports may be exagerrated or even plainly wrong at this time. I think what we all need to do is to remain calm, steady, and centered.

My heart goes out to everyone who has been affected by the events today.

-- Jun

Kami
09-11-2001, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by akiy
This is an incredibly horrific situation here, but one thing to keep in mind, folks, is that any of the reports may be exagerrated or even plainly wrong at this time. I think what we all need to do is to remain calm, steady, and centered.
My heart goes out to everyone who has been affected by the events today.
-- Jun

KAMI : My heart goes also to every victim but I agree with you, Jun. We must remain calm and able to see things properly. Everything is confused and manipulation of the facts may be at work.
It seems strange the easy with which 4 planes has been hijacked; the precision of the attacks; the perfect films taken; the immediate mention of the Taliban by the press ("we're not sure, but..."); the immediate mention by the US President of "retaliations"; the commentary that this catastrophe was only possible because of "America's liberty" (Would it be better if some of those liberties were revoked in the name of security?); and some other things, such as a "call for every nation, specially China and Russia (?), to participate in a punitive action against those terrorists"(???).
In short, a real tragedy is possibly being manipulated for other reasons we know nothing about.
That's why I think you are correct. Let's stay centered and cool and try to sort things out as they come.
Sentiments for the victims

Nick
09-11-2001, 02:20 PM
Yes, and I'm especially glad my teachers were more or less ordered by the principal not to discuss it... obviously a national tragedy and history making events are not as important as an hour of algebra... things like that make me lose faith in the school system...

This whole thing is actually quite frightening... especially having relatives that live and work in New York... condolences go out to the victims and their families... you'll be in my prayers.

Nick

Chocolateuke
09-11-2001, 04:20 PM
i agree but my teachers where all over it today. it was a tragic event and i hope this kind of thing can me resolved in an aiki manner. also the facts... just keep... iching in my head because we where just bombed by the teachers and television. although it is very very sad event i hope we learn from it in good and bad ways. hopefully the casualty count is not sky high ( althought I would consider 1 person dead really bad). hope to those in the east find comfort soon.

Irony
09-11-2001, 09:34 PM
I got to class this morning after seeing the second plane crash on TV. Basically my professor said that in light of this it doesn't make sense to discuss the merits of William Blake's poetry. I definately think it should be discussed.

Personally I don't see an aiki solution to this. There are too many possible reprecussions for the USA to avoid a retaliatory strike on... whoever.

I saw on the news that there has already been bombing in Ahfgnistan, claimed by the Northern Rebels. Perhaps they just see this as an excuse to take the government of that country with the full backing of the US Government.

Paranoia and fear is spreading over the whole country. I was in a movie theatre tonight (aikido was cancelled) and the movie was halted due to a suspected fire and the building evacuated. Ever since I was filled with an edgy suspicion that I really don't like feeling.

They're also searching areas of North Florida for suspects. I'm supposed to fly to my parents' house in Atlanta on Friday... but I just don't know...

Chris

JJF
09-12-2001, 02:24 AM
I was home sick yesterday and surfing the channels when danish national television started to broadcast a signal from CNN with danish comments added, so I watched the second plane crash - I watched the two towers collaps and I saw the close ups of the people jumping. What really scares me is the fact that some people can hate the population of another country so much that they concider it 'right' to do such a terrible thing, and that it probably dosen't matter what kind of retaliation is done - there will allways be someone who is ready to continue this stupid war.

We strive to make this world a better place to live - little by little - step by step - but when things like this happen, it all feels so useless. I hope we can find the strength to carry on the work of showing people the non-violent way of resolving conflicts, when we have had a little time to work through the horror of this incident.

My wife and I cried for the victims and for the relatives and friends - just writing this brings tears to my eyes again. We send our best wishes and condolences to all of you who have suffered from this - whether it be through personal loss or through the terrifying realisation that hate can show it's ugly face amongst us without warning.

All the best whishes

Steve Speicher
09-12-2001, 06:50 AM
Greetings to everyone here at Aikiweb.
Yesterday was quite a tragic day. Hopefully, today will see a more peaceful world.

I think everyone's suggestions of staying calm and centered are excellent, although rather than cool, maybe we should stay warm.... with compassion.

It would be easy to lash out in anger against those we feel responsible, or against those who are responsible. I believe the important thing is to retaliate with love. Holding those responsible accountable for their actions is indeed necessary, I just hope we can refrain from hating them. Hate has already destroyed so much.

AikidoSteve
09-12-2001, 08:58 AM
How does this nation "blend" in an Aikido approach with the events of yesterday? It seems to me, that it's a little late to be stepping off the line. Do we take the energy or momentum that has and will continue to develop and redirect it back to bin Laden and the country of Afghanistan? Does the USA neutron bomb Afghanistan into a Precambrian existence? And because we will have upset several other nations, do we execute the perfect attention getting atemi such as vaporize the cities of Baghdad, Tripoli, Tehran, Beirut, Damascus, and for good measure Jerusalem? Perhaps for their cheering in the streets, which was broadcast on American TV, the USA employs a wing tip to wing tip carpet bombing of Lebanon as well? Do we as a nation respond in a Mu Shin (without thought) fashion? Some reading this post would agree with my answers - I suspect others would not…

It's an interesting exercise in applying Aikido to real world situations.

Kami
09-12-2001, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by AikidoSteve
Does the USA neutron bomb Afghanistan into a Precambrian existence? And because we will have upset several other nations, do we execute the perfect attention getting atemi such as vaporize the cities of Baghdad, Tripoli, Tehran, Beirut, Damascus, and for good measure Jerusalem? Perhaps for their cheering in the streets, which was broadcast on American TV, the USA employs a wing tip to wing tip carpet bombing of Lebanon as well? Do we as a nation respond in a Mu Shin (without thought) fashion?

KAMI : It was said of the Romans that they rode on and where they passed they destroyed everything.
"SOLITUDINEM FACIUNT, PACEM APPELANT"
(They make a desert, that they call Peace)
Food for thoughts
Best

AikidoSteve
09-12-2001, 10:51 AM
Yes, but the question is how does one equate the events of yesterday to the practice of Aikido. Some believe that Aikido is a Martial Way.

I'm certain an argument can be made that includes the concept that the USA should never have allowed its self to be put into that position, the "don't walk down that dark alley" analogy. However, what is done, is done and the successful attack has been made - to an Aikidoka that should have been aware of the situation and environment and was not. In Aikido on a personal level, where one is attacked, personally, what is the proper response? And is that the same response that a nation should take. I want to explore that jump from personal to national.

I have seen Aikido posters that state the party line of "Reconciliation of the World". Now here's a chance to consider if such slogans are just rhetoric or actually feasible.

Kami
09-12-2001, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by AikidoSteve
I'm certain an argument can be made that includes the concept that the USA should never have allowed its self to be put into that position, the "don't walk down that dark alley" analogy. However, what is done, is done and the successful attack has been made - to an Aikidoka that should have been aware of the situation and environment and was not. In Aikido on a personal level, where one is attacked, personally, what is the proper response? And is that the same response that a nation should take.

KAMI : Good question, Steve! I really don't know, I've had always doubts about Aikido's pacifism. And also my country hasn't been attacked and bombed...
Anyway, the pacifism of a nation has been put to proof by Mahatma Gandhi, in India. He and his followers were beaten, impriosioned, tortured, killed and they never faltered in their pacifism and finally they achieved the liberation of India from British rule.
If we should do that, it's up for a fair long discussion, I think...By the way, i really liked that "walking down that dark alley" analogy.
Best

akiy
09-13-2001, 09:13 AM
As I'm sure everyone has heard, people have been urged to give blood to help out. I've called the local blood banks and they've said that they're more than swamped right now and for people to wait a couple of days to come in. A doctor friend of mine also brought up the fact that blood banks are now operating at "full" capacity and that blood can only keep for two weeks; she suggests that some people may want to wait a couple of weeks to give blood so that the blood banks aren't totally "empty" in a couple of weeks' time...

-- Jun

Kami
09-13-2001, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by akiy
As I'm sure everyone has heard, people have been urged to give blood to help out. I've called the local blood banks and they've said that they're more than swamped right now and for people to wait a couple of days to come in.
-- Jun

KAMI : Now, that's a very correct atitude and something everyone can do to help solve some problems.
Congratulations to the donors!:ai:

Irony
09-13-2001, 01:37 PM
Can aikido be applied to nations? I remember the quote, though I can't remember who said it that "A good king cannot be a saint." Does this apply here? Are there necessary evils that we as nations must embrace in order to protect ourselves?

Anne
09-14-2001, 10:09 AM
I still can't find the words to express my sorrow and shock after this unbelievable attacks. My condolences go to all the victims and their relatives.

I hope that whatever course of action might be taken by the US government, it will not be hasted by hatred and the urge to retaliate. The ones responsible must be found and punished but nobody else. Terrorism has no race or religion. No more innocent victims on any side. Otherwise this may lead to a scenario of strike and counterstrike like the one between Israel and Palestine but on the scale of a world war.

Also, terrorism doesn't stop at borders. What really makes me shiver is that apparently a good deal of the attacks on the US was organized here in Hamburg which is about an hour's drive from where I live.

One more thing. Please be careful about what you read on the internet or see on TV. There is much missinformation going around and many people suddendly are "islam experts" spreading wrong information and hatred. I have some muslim friends and many of their fellow muslims are now afraid of being attacked. This has already happened to some. So, please help your muslim neighbors and colleagues if something like that happens.
They are not the enemy.

yours,
Anne

Erik
09-14-2001, 10:27 AM
I saw this posted elsewhere and it's the first thing I've seen written that even began to address this from a positive perspective. Regrettably, as I understand it, we already offered something like this and it wasn't accepted.

When Jesus gave us (Christians) that advice, it was because THAT is the road to peace. It's little understood that the Biblical admonition "A tooth for a tooth" is a plea for moderation -- make the response proportional to the offense, instead of much worse.

It would be wrong for the U.S. to engage in some massive military engagement for the sake of punishment or revenge. It wouldn't work, either. Every time we drop bombs, we create more orphans, some of whom deal with their loss by becoming martyrs for the cause.

How could we turn the other cheek?

Consider the poor Palestinians. What a pathetic people: whole generations born in poverty, living their lives in refugee camps, with very few opportunities and only faint hope. They are subsidized by the greater Arab community, but at a subsistance level. These people are desperate. The most inspiring cause they can grasp is the destruction of Israel and its allies, with the fall-out we saw earlier this week.

NOW the U.S. is going to spend $40 BILLION (with a B!) dollars on damage repair and terrorist hunting.

What if we spent some of those billions on the Palestinians? What if we created excellent schools, started enterprises, built infrastructure like roads and sewage systems... a Marshall Plan for Palestine?

SUDDENLY we would no longer be The Great Satan. We would be Israel's friend AND the Palestinian's friend. The Islamic support for anti-American terrorism would fade away. We would be safe.

INSTEAD, we'll spend more billions on more planes and more bombs, making the world safe for U.S. defense contractors, and no one else.

Arab children, look to your parents, before we murder them. Please forgive us our sins, when we slaughter your mother and father and sister and brother.

Forgive us for reacting like the typical three-year-old, hitting back because "He hit me first!"

We should take Jesus's advice, and turn the other cheek.

Irony
09-14-2001, 12:30 PM
Are we to be the caretakers of the entire world, then? What does the Palistinian Government think about America taking over their country in that way?

Ideals are beautiful, but things are just not that simple. I believe that the group that trained Osama Bin Laden was funded by the USA. Maybe sticking our fingers in isn;t always the best way.

Erik
09-14-2001, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Irony
Are we to be the caretakers of the entire world, then? What does the Palistinian Government think about America taking over their country in that way?

Ideals are beautiful, but things are just not that simple. I believe that the group that trained Osama Bin Laden was funded by the USA. Maybe sticking our fingers in isn;t always the best way.

Well, I actually agree with some of your points. The Palistinians have already rejected such an offer. Secondly, such a practice could lead to blackmail. Thirdly, it would have made no difference in this case. Assuming it was Bin Laden, he's actually a Saudi and Palistine is only #3 on his list.

Do1
09-14-2001, 04:27 PM
I'd like to convey my love and deepest sympathies with everyone involved in these horrible horrible acts of violence.

I hope strength can be found for you somewhere.

With love and appreciation,
Donna xxxx

mariko nakamura
09-15-2001, 02:47 AM
This is a completely unbelievable evil act of violence. I live in Japan now but I'm from New York. My cousins husband worked in the towers and he is currently missing. I cant go home to be with my family because no planes are allowed to enter. My 5 year old daughters birthday present has been returned so she wont receive it on time.
What are we going to do about this? I have my doubts about attacking these people. Something tells me that it might not work. All that money to fight terrorism seems like a big waste. I talked to my parents after this happened. I couldnt believe how mad my mother was. It really shocked me because before I called, all I felt was sadness. When I watched all this happening on the news, I couldnt stop crying. My mom wants to kill people. She wants America to shoot people with missles and guns. Does anybody on this thread feel like this?
I cant justify any retaliation. Thats not the way I want this world to work. We always do this and what happens? More death, more hatred, more tears, more terrorists. I feel if we start bombing somebody elses country, then we also are terrorists. Just from a different perspective. I liked that other quote about using all that money to help these people instead of kill them. Dont you think that would completely piss these terrorists off? If we give them war, were playing their game. This is what Aikido is all about. Taking the negative aggressive energy and manipulating or restoring it to really beautiful positive energy.
I think instead of giving these guys my hate, I'm gonna give them my love. I want to teach them a lesson. I want them to know that what they did or actually how they did this was wrong. There can be nothing positive about creating more violence.
With love,
Mick

Kami
09-15-2001, 04:43 AM
Originally posted by mariko nakamura
This is a completely unbelievable evil act of violence. My cousins husband worked in the towers and he is currently missing. I cant go home to be with my family because no planes are allowed to enter. My 5 year old daughters birthday present has been returned so she wont receive it on time.
I cant justify any retaliation. Thats not the way I want this world to work. We always do this and what happens? More death, more hatred, more tears, more terrorists. I feel if we start bombing somebody elses country, then we also are terrorists. Just from a different perspective. If we give them war, were playing their game. This is what Aikido is all about. Taking the negative aggressive energy and manipulating or restoring it to really beautiful positive energy.
There can be nothing positive about creating more violence.
With love,
Mick

KAMI : Let me express my respect and my admiration for you, my friend. You have been touched by violence. You heart is full of pain but, as Kipling said, "you're keeping your head, when all about you, people are losing theirs and blaming it on you".
Congratulations, my friend! It's important, in a highly emotional moment, to keep our emotions in check and try to see clearly. If you want justice, that's all right. Let's find out, with every care, who did it and take a correct course of action. If we lash out in fury ("these bastards and the countries that supposedly help them deserve everything we may do to them!"), you're right, we'd be less than terrorists. With the excuse that "there's no other way", we may go too far and make this world an even worse place to live in.
Violence breeds violence. Only love builds for eternity. You know, I really believe in that.
Peace with you :ai:

L. Camejo
09-15-2001, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Kami
KAMI : It's important, in a highly emotional moment, to keep our emotions in check and try to see clearly. If you want justice, that's all right. Let's find out, with every care, who did it and take a correct course of action. If we lash out in fury ("these bastards and the countries that supposedly help them deserve everything we may do to them!"), you're right, we'd be less than terrorists. With the excuse that "there's no other way", we may go too far and make this world an even worse place to live in.
Violence breeds violence. Only love builds for eternity.

I agree totally. At first I felt the rage increasing within when I saw those planes disappear into the WTC, I could identify with the pain and horror of the victims and those involved and really wished that I had the power to control a few nukes.:(

But after a few minutes I realised that this negative energy is what created those images on TV and negativity feeds on negativity. It may be very hard to understand for many of us, but if we put ourselves in the lives of those who did the attack, we may at least be able to understand, if not forgive, the reasoning behind the attacks. This is not to say that we should agree with what they have done.

To grow up brainwashed into believing that a country and its way of life is the epitome of all evil and that they are to blame for all your problems, pain and suffering can make almost anyone want to seek retribution if you can see nothing else. Couple that with constant talk about Jihad (Holy War) and believing that you will be sanctified in heaven by dying for the holy cause of destroying this evil, and one can begin to see what went through the heads of those terrorists. In their mind, what they did was attack the greatest evil in the world, a noble cause for them; quite the opposite for us.

In this time I try to utilise the depth of one of O-Sensei's quotes: "True love is INVINCIBLE because it contends with nothing."
A love based response to what has happened will probably yield the best long term solution to this problem, because ANY sort of military response will result in more of the same.

Sad to say, Aiki and unconditional love is not always the way of politics and international affairs most times, especially where there is extreme and heartfelt pain. I just hope that good sense prevails in the end and that those who have to decide remeber that at the end of it all, ALL of us, even te worst of us are part of the SAME Universe.

My condolences to all who have been affected.
L.C.:ai::ki:

jaeger
09-15-2001, 01:05 PM
I am still shocked by the events of this week. I have no thoughts, except one:

we must never forget.

We may eventually be able to forgive--I stress the "may"--but we must never forget the fact that there are humans out in our world who are able to dehumanize entire groups of fellow human beings enough to kill.

The heroism of all the rescuers involved is something to be especially lauded. I personally know several people who have left my school temporarily, putting their academic careers in jeopardy, to assist with the search and rescue as well as the gruesome task that lies ahead of New York.

I am at a loss for words. The grief that I feel is matched by the anger I hold, which is in turn muted by the shock I am experiencing, which is colored in turn by the grief. I am hollow. Since I am just starting out with Aikido, I hope that it will help me regain my center. If I regain my balance, perhaps I will be able to help the world stand up again from the punishing blow it has dealt itself.

Hate nothing except hate itself.

-Aaron

Levonicus
09-15-2001, 05:17 PM
I can't pretend I understand what it must feel like for people affected closely by this tragedy, I have been following it for days now, and still the raw reality is only begining to reach me. We live in a global world, and a global community. The interconectedness of all life seems now as undeniable as the interconectedness of modern human society. This event is profound evendence that what happens to one happens to all. We are all affected.

I've contemplated a great deal over the past few days, and I've had a few thoughts I felt like sharing if anyone here cares to listen.

Our emotional lives exist in harmony with our physical lives. Just as the destruction of an object releases unbelieveable physical energy, similar emotional energy is also released. The magnatude of energy that is moving around and from this event is almost inconcievable, and one can hardly imagine that any person caught in the middle could survive it.

In Aikido we learn to redirect energy, be it physical, or emotional. This is what makes Aikido both a martial and spiritual path.

To train in martial arts is to study conflict. Aikido is managing conflict and using it as a positive force. Just as we extend ki to move normaly antagonistic muscle groups in harmony, we also extend ki to make normaly antagonistic interpersonal relationships harmonious. The concept of relationships may seem more abstract than that of muscles, and countries and societies may seem more abstract than both, but I believe all do exist and are as real as anything else. So it makes sense to believe that Aikido can be applied to international conflicts aswell, because conflict is conflict.

I'd like to know what all of you think, specifically about what people and our countries leaders can do to deal with this situation in a constructive way. For instance, this event has already united so much of the world to a degree I've never seen before. There's a lot of power in that, what will we do with it?

I don't know what will happen next, but whatever does happen, I will contine my training and continue to strugle for a better world. As long as there are those among us striving to make good of this situation, there is hope.

MaylandL
09-16-2001, 11:09 PM
I live on the West Coast of Australia and my wife is a US citizen. We watched in horror and total disbelief of the events unfolding before us.

Yes we do need to remain calm and I do agree with the comments made by others in the previous posts. All have valid comments and thoughts but there must come a time when enough is enough and a line must to drawn to say "NO MORE".

Ueshiba advocated peace and harmony, but we are also warriors with a sense of what is "right" and "good". When such an unspeakable act of cruelty, barbarism and cowardice occurs, it must not be allowed to go unpunished. Those who are responsible, those who aided and abetted and those who protect and harbour them must be brought to account to face the consequences of their actions. They must not be allowed to hurt others in the name of what they believe. They are free to practice what they believe but not at the expense of life.

All people, no matter of race, religion, skin colour or countries, should not allow this to ever happen again. Terrorism and evil of this magnitude must never be allowed to succeed.

On a more personal I would like to add my condolences and sympathies for the people of the United States, especially to those people who have lost friends and loved ones. May you find peace, solace and comfort from the support of others.

Anysia
09-17-2001, 12:24 AM
When I heard and saw what happened, I was in tears. The wounding I felt was as if someone had a fist around my heart and squeezed. I wept for the loss and for the grief of those who are left to clean up. Then I felt rage, and fury towards the cowardly bastards that did this. GOD didn't want this done. Madmen did. I now feel that NO mercy towards all of these madmen should be allowed. They should be excised like diseased tissue from a human body. I don't hate them. They are a disease and diseased minds. They need extreme curing.

I was shocked and dismayed at how many people are saying the US should not retaliate against these two legged animals and the ones that harbor them. How many times should the US ignore the fact that these murderous bastards keep thumbing their noses, and blowing up innocent people? If they want to don a C4 vest and blow themselves up, fine, just stop taking innocents along for the ride.
How would the ones saying to NOT attack feel if it was their country, and if they were still waiting to hear from a friend or loved one that was at the attacked site?

These kind of actions by such creatures can no longer be allowed to continue. It has to stop NOW. Only one other country attacked the US on US soil in recent history (not counting the Pre 1900 wars of Spanish/American war, or the war of 1812). I think it's time for the cowards to remember history, and the consequences of *that* attack.

This is a rant about revenge. It is a comment about being brought to justice and and being held accountable for such evil actions. Enough is enough.
:circle:

Levan
09-17-2001, 01:36 AM
I would like to add my simpathies and condolences to all who has suffered in terrorist attacks in US, to their families and friends and express my deepest feelings to all americans and other nationals affected by this ugly action. I hope that world will change after this, though to which direction I do not know. Unfortunately mankind did not learn much during its life on the earth. We did not change our habits and still are fairly similar to wild humanoids at the dawn of civilazation.
Very sorry and very lost.

Levan

mj
09-17-2001, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Anysia
I now feel that NO mercy towards all of these madmen should be allowed. They should be excised like diseased tissue from a human body. I don't hate them. They are a disease and diseased minds. They need extreme curing.

...these two legged animals and the ones that harbor them. How many times should the US ignore the fact that these murderous bastards keep thumbing their noses, and blowing up innocent people? If they want to don a C4 vest and blow themselves up, fine, just stop taking innocents along for the ride.
How would the ones saying to NOT attack feel if it was their country, and if they were still waiting to hear from a friend or loved one that was at the attacked site?

...creatures can no longer be allowed to continue. It has to stop NOW...

Enough is enough.
:circle:

The circle here seems to me to be entirely appropriate to the feelings in this post.
America is now in the circle of violence, (as it was before).
Can they see the damage that has been done all over the world?
Can they decide to end the circle of violence?
My heartfelt condolences to everyone affected by this circle of violence, all over the
world.:mad: madness.
I agree with 99% of the posts in this thread.
PEACE
PEACE
PEACE
For F*CKS sake, please!
PEACE

Mona
09-20-2001, 12:24 PM
Greetings all,
I am still in shock of what happened. I live in a country that had been through war and I can definitely identify with what the victims' families and friends must have been going through during the past week. I for one have not been able to take the image of those throwing themselves off the towers off my mind. It has been an obsession, well sort of.
However, please allow me to add a few things:
1) There is no proof whatsoever that Oussama Bin Laden did it. I think he'd brag about it if he was responsible.
2) 4000 jewish-americans were due to go work at the WTC that day, but somehow, NONE of them went to work that day. WHY??? Did they know about the attack beforehand?
3) The names of so-called suspects, those of arab origin who were said to be on those planes, were NOT mentioned in the list of passengers when the list was shown on TV. Yet somehow those names appeared as soon as speculations were given about muslim/arab terrorists being the suspects.
4) Interviews with the families of those suspects (obviously that was not shown on CNN) have documents that show their sons were possibly kidnapped and their passports used by other people.
5) The american media, especially CNN, has been doing its best to incite hate against arabs in general, and muslims in particular.
eg: "CNN Used 1991 Film To Incite Against Palestinians
>>
>>Posted: 26 Jamad-u-Thani 1422, 14 September 2001
>>
>>CNN showed Palestinians cheering the death and destruction of 11
>>September.
>>The scenes were repeated throughout the day and around the world to
>>sow
>>hatred against the "callous" Palestinians.
>>
>>Now it turns out that it used footage from 1991 and just claimed
>>that it was
>>today's footage. A contributor to CounterPunch (edited by Alexander
>>Cockburn) reports that he and his colleagues had compared this tape
>>with one
>>from 1991 showing Palestinian cheering, and found them to be
>>identical. Here
>>are excerpts from that letter by Marcio A. V. Carvalho at State
>>University
>>of Campinas - Brazil:
>>
>>"All around the world we are subjected to 3 or 4 huge news
>>distributors, and
>>one of them - as you well know - is CNN. Very well, I guess all of
>>you have
>>been seeing (just as I've been) images from this company. In
>>particular, one
>>set of images called my attencion: the Palestinians celebrating the
>>bombing,
>>out on the streets, eating some cake and making funny faces for the
>>camera.
>>
>>Well, THOSE IMAGES WERE SHOT BACK IN 1991! Those are images of
>>Palestinians
>>celebrating the invasion of Kuwait! It's simply unacceptable that a
>>super-power of communications as CNN uses images which do not
>>correspond to
>>the reality in talking about so serious an issue.
>>
>>A teacher of mine, here in Brazil, has videotapes recorded in 1991,
>>with the
>>very same images; he's been sending emails to CNN, Globo (the major
>>TV
>>network in Brazil) and newspapers, denouncing what I myself
>>classify as a
>>crime against the public opinion. If anyone of you has access to
>>this kind
>>of files, search for it. In the meanwhile, I'll try to 'put my
>>hands' on a
>>copy of this tape.
>>
>>But now, think for a moment about the impact of such images. Your
>>people are
>>hurt, emotionally fragile, and this kind of broadcast have very
>>high
>>possibility of causing waves of anger and rage against
>>Palestinians. It's
>>simply irresponsible to show images such as those."
>>
>>Marcio A. V. Carvalho State University of Campinas - Brazil.
>>
>>ACTION ITEM:
>>
>>Contact CNN at: public.information@turner.com, community@cnn.com,
>>Mike.Hanna@turner.com, Eason.Jordan@turner.com,
>>Gerald.Levin@twi.com,
>>RickDavis@turner.com
>>
>>In polite but firm letters denounce the act and demand an
>>explanation and
>>corrective action."

6) In the meantime, Israel has been using the situation to launch more attacks on civilians.
7) Bush should NOT have used the term 'CRUSADE'. It's too big a word! What was he thinking! Crusaders have slaughtered a lot of innocent people 'in the name of Jesus', and if some muslims have slaughtered many in the name of muhammad, I don't think we should go on with this vicious circle!

Just a few thoughts....
In Aiki,
Mona

aikilouis
09-22-2001, 03:10 AM
The discussion is getting very slippery. Some accusations (more or less veiled) have been made in the previous post.
Let us remember that Internet is not the most reliable source of information, and that whatever would be affirmed on it (including this forum) should be considered with extreme care.
What's more, is it our role to point fingers ? We are just average citizens of the world (mostly from rich countries), and we share more or less the same information. I believe that the purpose of this thread is to share impressions on the events, and maybe learn something from them, in the light of our aikido experience. Rumors and suspicion are out of the context.

Louis R Joseph

mj
09-24-2001, 06:26 PM
The claim made about 1991 news footage appears to be false, not deliberately I'm sure, by one of the previous posters.
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm
This seems to have the relevant information.

On the other hand, this is now a war :(
The first casualty of war, as we know, is truth.

Try searching for Private Eye magazine in the UK.

Anne
09-27-2001, 02:08 PM
I've heard a third version about the 1991 video. I won't share it here because obviously there is already enough missinformation. I just think this shows that you have to be very careful these days about what you hear or read, especially on the internet. Mass media have proved to be a very powerful weapon. During the Gulf War I've often heard the sentence that "We are overnewsed but underinformed". Apparently this is still true.

As mj said: The first casualty of war is truth.

Take care,
Anne

JJF
09-28-2001, 03:20 AM
Ever seen the film 'Wag the dog' ?
Definately worth watching.
(This comment only meant as reference to the 'overnewsed but underinformed' quote above - not related to the subject of the thread)

stealth
10-01-2001, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by Mona
I am still in shock of what happened.

Who can be surprised that the attacks on America have their source in the Islamic world, who can be shocked? Two days earlier, eight people were killed in southern Iraq when British and American planes bombed civilian areas. Not a word appeared in the mainstream media. An estimated 200,000 Iraqis, according to the Health Education Trust, died during and in the immediate aftermath of the slaughter known as the Gulf war. This was never news that touched public consciousness in the U.S.. At least a million civilians, half of them children, have since died in Iraq as a result of a medieval embargo imposed by the United States and Britain. In Pakistan and Afghanistan, the mujahedin, which gave birth to the fanatical Taliban, was largely the creation of the Central Intelligence Agency; the terrorist training camps where Osama Bin Laden, "America's most wanted man", allegedly planned his attacks, were built with American money and backing. In Palestine, the enduring illegal occupation by Israel would have collapsed long ago were it not for American backing. Far from being the terrorists of the world, the Islamic peoples have been its victims - that is, the victims of American fundamentalism, whose power, in all its forms, military, strategic and economic, is the greatest source of terrorism on earth. This fact is largely censored from the western media. That Tony Blair, whose government sells lethal weapons to Israel and has sprayed Iraq and Yugoslavia with cluster bombs and depleted uranium and was the greatest arms supplier to the genocidists in Indonesia, can be taken seriously when he now speaks about the "shame" of the "new evil of mass terrorism" says much about the censorship of our collective sense of how the world is managed. One of Blair's favorite words - fatuous - comes to mind. Alas, it is no comfort to the families of the thousands of ordinary Americans who have died so terribly that the perpetrators of their suffering may be the product of Capitalistic policies.

It is a tragedy what happened in New York and I feel bad that thousands of innocent lives were taken because of a political attack on our government. It seems, though, that that is always how it is with war–the innocent citizens are killed while politicians pamper in their own disgust. Who is the enemy? Who is the hero? What is right and wrong? I feel that it's their war, not mine. For several decades now the U.S. has been deploying spies, mercenaries, and troops over seas bullying weaker nations. Top secret brachia of government, being funded by wealthy multi-national corporations, have been stealing the natural resources from smaller countries. It appears that every nation in the world "sees" this except for the majority of citizens in this country. When I look at this entire event through my own perception, which is Zen, I conclude that it's nothing more than Karma –what comes around goes around.

Jim23
10-01-2001, 11:17 AM
In some countries you could be in serious trouble for making those types of comments about the local government.

I often wonder why people like you even bother to live in the wretched west, let alone the US.

BTW, This just in from Afganistan:

Top Afghan clerics from three provinces issued an edict Sunday saying any Afghan believed to sympathize with the United States or the former king should be heavily fined and have their house burned down.

Jim23

stealth
10-01-2001, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Jim23
In some countries you could be in serious trouble for making those types of comments about the local government.

Thank god for people like Thomas Jefferson who, not only warned us about our government becoming corrupt, but gave us a duty as Americans to stand up and revolt against the tyranny of our government. Now who is the true patriot?

Originally posted by Jim23
I often wonder why people like you even bother to live in the wretched west, let alone the US.

If I had a dime for every time I've heard this insipid cliche I would be rich. But it seems that this must be the year for imbecilic cliches, heck it got a dictator in the White House. To answer yours: I am proud to be an American and I only wish to see my country become once again a democracy.


Originally posted by Jim23
BTW, This just in from Afganistan:

Top Afghan clerics from three provinces issued an edict Sunday saying any Afghan believed to sympathize with the United States or the former king should be heavily fined and have their house burned down.


BTW, This just in from The White House:

Anyone who (we say) is protecting, housing, and giving food to (who we say) are terrorists will be found just as guilty as the terrorists (even innocent civilians who chose to house a Taliban terrorist as opposed to being shot by the Taliban).

Jim23
10-01-2001, 12:23 PM
Even though you'd never understand or admit it, you are a bit of a cliché yourself.

Your response (opinion) started out okay, but when you had no real answer to my question - just a stupid, childish insult - you lost my interest and my time.

I recommend that you either:

1) stay in the US and run for politics, so that you can change things (if you are so convinced, surely you will convince others), or
2) move to a country that better fits your needs and ideology, or
3) stay in the US, don't run for politics, but get mental help

Jim23

stealth
10-01-2001, 02:13 PM
Jim23

This is way beyond funny.

First of all, when did I insult you? *hint* I never did, it's not in my character.

Secondly, What question did you impose to me?

And finally, by responding with an abusive revilement that depicts a pre-conventional moral level of maturity, you only reveal your adaptability level when faced in a debate.

A mind given to logic and reason can only conclude that anyone who does not fit your mold, or approval, is just simply written off as a subject for mental help as you so credulously done so in your recommendation.

Now, I don't know you so I can not judge your character. However, from the reading I'm getting from this forum it doesn't look like aikido The Way of Harmony with Spirit

JCK
10-01-2001, 03:21 PM
Stealth,

I used to work for the U.S. Government. Any chance that you used to as well? I see that parts of your profile have been classified.:)

P.S. I'm just curious here. Do you practice any Aikido or do you just stick with Ninjitsu?

Sincerely,
Jeremy King

Jim23
10-01-2001, 04:43 PM
My guess would be a university student. Political science?

He has tendencies and propensities toward verbosity and prolixity.

Reminds me of these:

Jack becomes dexterous,
Jack becomes able to attain high velocity,
Jack forms a trajectory over the illuminating apparatus of ozocitereous structure.
---
Mary was formerly the owner and proprietor of a pygmy Ovis aries,
It possessed an outer wool covering which had the characteristic pallidness much like that found in the appearance of crystalline precipitation,
And to each point in space that Mary would venture to,
The aforementioned Ovis aries would participate with a high degree of certainty.
---
Diminutive Jack Horner
Was seated at the perpendicular conjunction of three planar surfaces,
Ingesting his baked Yuletide pastry.
He inserted his opposable digit,
And excavated a specimen of genus Prunus,
And remarked, "What a benevolent adolescent I have become!"
---
Lilliputian damsel Muffet
Was rested upon a squatty seating apparatus,
Ingesting the lacteal substances in her possession.
At this point arrived an arachnid
Which inhabited the immediate vicinity of the maiden,
And, true to the fundamental principles of stimulus and response, arose trepidation in the damsel with sufficient efficiency so as to induce the aforementioned maiden to change locale.

Jim23

Anne
10-02-2001, 12:58 AM
Gentlemen,
no offence, but do you think this is the right thread for this kind of personal duell?

Anne

mj
10-02-2001, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by Anne
Gentlemen,
no offence, but do you think this is the right thread for this kind of personal duell?

Anne

Well, Anne, it's been 3 weeks now, so people are going to start to look at these events, which I believe have only just begun, on a more personal level.
(Forgive me, I do NOT mean to include those who WERE effected personally!)

Because of the awesomeness of the events, there will be much polarisation of opinion.
These feelings have to be explored, refined, argued, changed, and generally brought kicking and screaming into the daylight.

I am sure everyone who has ever posted on Aikiweb has very strong views on the subject.
The test will be to air these views without becoming hostile. I hope it can be done.

Jim23, Stealth, et al, argue away (as far as I'm concerned,) but stop getting personal :(

Please don't take umbrage.
Because that's how it all started, somewhere and sometime we will probably never get to know. (And tell me to shut my stupid mouth, too, if necessary)

BC
10-02-2001, 10:14 AM
I sense that perhaps someone here is trolling. :eek: However, I could be mistaken.

Kami
10-02-2001, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by BC
I sense that perhaps someone here is trolling. :eek: However, I could be mistaken.

YAMANTAKA : Curious...I think so too...:)
Curious little things trolls, no?:rolleyes:
Best

mj
10-02-2001, 11:16 AM
I certainly hope you are not talking about me, and if not I apologise.

However, if you are talking about me I meant my remarks in all seriousness.

Either way, no offence taken.

I still mean what I said, argue your case, don't get personal, and Please don't take umbrage at me.

stealth
10-03-2001, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by Jim23

Jack becomes dexterous,
Jack becomes able to attain high velocity,
Jack forms a trajectory over the illuminating apparatus of ozocitereous structure.
---
Mary was formerly the owner and proprietor of a pygmy Ovis aries,
It possessed an outer wool covering which had the characteristic pallidness much like that found in the appearance of crystalline precipitation,
And to each point in space that Mary would venture to,
The aforementioned Ovis aries would participate with a high degree of certainty.
---
Diminutive Jack Horner
Was seated at the perpendicular conjunction of three planar surfaces,
Ingesting his baked Yuletide pastry.
He inserted his opposable digit,
And excavated a specimen of genus Prunus,
And remarked, "What a benevolent adolescent I have become!"
---
Lilliputian damsel Muffet
Was rested upon a squatty seating apparatus,
Ingesting the lacteal substances in her possession.
At this point arrived an arachnid
Which inhabited the immediate vicinity of the maiden,
And, true to the fundamental principles of stimulus and response, arose trepidation in the damsel with sufficient efficiency so as to induce the aforementioned maiden to change locale.

Jim23


Jim23: Wow, get a grip on reality man!

JCK: To answer your question, no I'm not a college student. I've done sub-contract work in the past with the government. Ninjitsu and kendo are the only two Japanese arts I've studied. Lately, I've been interested in aikido (especially now as I get older). I was told that it's a Spiritual martial art that translates the way of harmony. So I thought I would check out some info. on it here at this web site. The articles, pics, and essays look good on paper but after reading a lot of the trash at the different forums here it seems like akidoists are rather shallow in their "spiritual way". Heck, my ninjitsu sensei held more Eastern wisdom and insight than from what I've seen here (and he's actually a merc). I hate to use a cliche, but it seems appropriate judge a tree by it's fruits

Take Care,
Pat

Jim23
10-03-2001, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by stealth



Jim23: Wow, get a grip on reality man!

Right.


I hate to use a cliche, but it seems appropriate judge a tree by it's fruits


So, you've chosen not to start aikido based on what you've read here. Interesting.

Just try it and even if you hate it, bitch about it, but don't leave or try to change it.

Oh, I agree, I try to avoid clichés like the plague.:D

Jim23

deepsoup
10-03-2001, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by BC
I sense that perhaps someone here is trolling. :eek: However, I could be mistaken.

If you're referring our Stealthy underground friend, I think you are mistaken.

It seems to me that his views are sincerely held, and while I dont entirely agree, there is at least a germ of truth in there.

When Jim says that Pat would not be free to criticise the government in other countries, he is of course correct. Thats entirely beside the point though, because he does not live in Afghanistan, he lives in the USA, and he has a constitutional right to free speech.

That right and the constitution that guarantees it is arguably one of the best things about America. Like all rights though, it carries with it a responsibility: If you think someone is wrong, its relatively easy to denounce him as unpatriotic, or as a fool. But if you believe in the rights you claim to be defending, you have to refute his arguments. In short, if he's wrong, you have to prove he's wrong.

In the aftermath of such a terrible crime, in all the shock, grief, horror and anger, the urge to go out there and bomb the shit out of somebody is quite understandable, but that doesn't make it right. If it were possible to defeat terrorism with brute force, do you think Russia would still be having problems with Chechen rebels after all its done in Grozny?

So far that hasn't happened, which I personally find pretty amazing. I really thought for a while there that Uncle Sam was going to freak out and nuke somebody. Under the circumstances, I think the response so far has generally been astonishingly humane. Maybe there's yet hope that some good may emerge from all this.

Theres nothing to bomb though, when your enemy doesn't have anything to destroy. (Indeed doesn't even value his own life.)
Even if you do manage to kill a terrorist in a foreign land somewhere, if you cant change the circumstances that created him, you merely create a martyr to inspire a whole generation to follow him. The war against terrorism must be a battle for hearts and minds. And if you would wage war you must 'first know your enemy' (Sun Tzu?).

In this case, to 'know your enemy' has to involve understanding why so many people around the world perceive the USA to be their enemy.

And if you want to be the good guy, it certainly doesn't help to be a hypocrite.

I agree entirely that people who knowingly fund, arm and otherwise support terrorists are no better than terrorists themselves.

But as "Stealth" (seriously silly name, btw, but who am i to talk?) says, the line between terrorism and war is not always so well defined.

From the point of view of someone in Sudan, maybe suffering from tuberculosis, and unable to obtain antibiotics, was the destruction of the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant in 1998 (http://www.salon.com/news/1998/09/23news.html) an act of terrorism?

Tough question. Heres an easier one:

How about when a brutal dictator comes to power in a bloody coup, with the help of the secret secvices of another country, murdering the democratically elected president as he does so. He then proceeds to abduct, torture and murder large numbers of the citizens of that country. Is that terror? If so did the dictator's benefactor sponsor terrorism?

I'm thinking of Chile, Salvador Allende, Augusto Pinochet, Sept 11 1973 (http://www11.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/11/13/cia.chile.ap/). And the other country was, of course, the USA.

Whatever you think about all that though, you have to admit its ironic that George Dubbya is now leading the 'free world' in a war to defend democracy. Given that democracy is traditionally the system where the guy who gets more votes than the other fellow wins the election.

Rant over,
sorry
:)

Sean
x

JCK
10-04-2001, 07:27 AM
Hey Pat,

That's what I thought. You speak as though you know a bit more than the rest of the "sheep" and I know exactly where you're coming from. I'll just leave it at that.

As for Aikido. I know where you're coming from also. I grow tired of all of the discussion about effectiveness and all that jazz. I personally have seen the "holier than thou" attitude that some Aikidoka display; and, I have also seen people that "walk the walk".

Ironically enough, they keep their mouths shut, train hard, treat everyone with respect, and don't judge people by his or her art or beliefs. They're the quiet ones and my mom always said be very afraid of the quiet ones. If my advice is worth anything to you I would say spend a lot of time searching for the right Aikido teacher. It's been my experience that they're out there.

Take care,
Jeremy

Erik
10-08-2001, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Jim23
Top Afghan clerics from three provinces issued an edict Sunday saying any Afghan believed to sympathize with the United States or the former king should be heavily fined and have their house burned down.


Jim, they could only be so lucky as to be fined and have their house burned down.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/10/02/fatima/index.html

Anne
10-08-2001, 12:37 PM
I, too, saw "Beneath the Veil" on tv. There is nothing left to say about the situation of the population, especially the situation of the women.
:( :( :(

Anne

Erik
10-08-2001, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by JCK
They're the quiet ones and my mom always said be very afraid of the quiet ones.

It's the quiet ones you gotta watch. This sounds like a very dangerous assumption. I'll bet anything that while you're busy watching a quiet one, a noisy one will kill you. Suppose you're in a bar, and one guy is sitting over on the side, reading a book, not bothering anybody. And another guy is standing up at the front, bangin' a machete on the bar, screamin', "I'm gonna kill the next motherfucker who pisses me off!"
Who you gonna watch?

George Carlin

JCK
10-08-2001, 01:28 PM
Hahahahahha,

That's funny. George Carlin kills me.

Jeremy

Brian H
10-10-2001, 06:18 AM
Someone once told me they would rather die than take a life, no matter what the circumstances. I simply told than I respected their feelings, but they would never again baby sit my kids. Gandhi was not so much a pacifist as a incredibly brave pragmatist. He did say "If the choice is between violence and cowardice, I will take violence." Gandhi knew the British were a "moral" people and that while they were willing to beat the Indians and suppress them violently, they would be shamed into doing the right thing and ending colonial rule. How far would Gandhi gone if India had been a colony of Germany and used passive resistence against Nazi troops? Gandhi would have gone up in smoke.

Is American violence all bad? Hell No! We have sent troops to the corners of the world, not as take over other countries, but to set them free. Did we always do a great job? No, but europe would be a German (or Russian) nation if it were not for American violence.

Now we are raining food on Afganistan to feed its people and bombing the few "military" targets they have to weaken the Taliban and free the people. Will they form an enlighten democratic government next week, I doubt it, but the US will try an help anyway.

The Life giving sword strikes down evil.