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Ryan Porter
01-05-2007, 10:06 AM
In dojo practice, when we do a technique that ends up in a pin (nikyo, sankyo, kotegaeshi, etc.), we extend gently until uke feels a nice stretch and perhaps a mild pain. Uke slaps the mat, nage releases, and training continues.

Outside of the formalized practice structure of the dojo, what happens after a pin? If you have pinned an attacker and then release him (or her), he may run away, but then again, he may very well just get up and attack you again.

Should you hold the pin indefinitely, ignoring his probably intense shouts of pain? (Intense because he's not used to the feeling and because in this situation, you may not be inclined to be gentle.) But how long can you hold it? Eventually, you'll have to let go and get something to eat.

Should you extend the pin past the comfort point and intentionally cause damage to the shoulder? How bad would the damage be? And then what happens after that?

I've also heard somewhere that if you hold a pin long enough, the pain will eventually cause the receiver to fall into unconsciousness. Is this true? Is it advisable? How long will the person remain unconscious?

I'd be interested in hearing anybody's thoughts or comments.

ChristianBoddum
01-05-2007, 10:21 AM
There are ways to lock up the attacker to immobilize him, then you can use your cellphone
and call up the authorities - the police.
In Nikyo there is a way lock both arms for you to be in control without using to much force,
so you can keep him controlled as long as you want.
It a little harder to explain that to show - sorry !
In Daito Ryu you will see this more often than in Aikido.

DonMagee
01-05-2007, 10:33 AM
Assuming you mean standing arm pins, you are probably not going to need to worry about injurying him. If you happen to get someone in that position, he is going to injure himself as he tries to escape. Fear, anger, etc is going to make him struggle and try to escape.

If I manged to get someone there, I would try to talk them down. Failing that, I would start stomping on their head.

Tinyboy344
01-05-2007, 11:06 AM
You rip his arm off and start beating him with it! evileyes mwahahah

**totally un-aiki**

happysod
01-05-2007, 11:15 AM
Should you extend the pin past the comfort point and intentionally cause damage to the shoulder? If there's a good reason such as his mates have decided to play to or he's going for a weapon - yes, otherwiseI would try to talk them down. Failing that, I would start stomping on their head fits my bill, although I'd prefer torso to head or break something with less long-term damage such as a finger.And then what happens after that? bit puzzled by this one - I'm running at this point and hopefully they're not able to chase me, is that what you mean?hold a pin long enough, the pain will eventually cause the receiver to fall into unconsciousness. Never heard this one before, people can pass out because of pain, but once you're causing that much damage I'd hesitate to call it just a pin.

Ketsan
01-05-2007, 01:41 PM
If I thought I could talk my way out of it I could. Other than that you've got three or four options:
1.Run and pray he or his mates can't run faster than you.
2.Roll forward which'll break/dislocate the arm.
3.Go for a choke.
4.Absolute last resort, call the police and pray.

Ron Tisdale
01-05-2007, 01:57 PM
4.Absolute last resort, call the police and pray.

If you make that your first resort, you can do all the others while you're waiting for the calvary to arrive... ;)

B,
R

Ketsan
01-05-2007, 02:17 PM
If you make that your first resort, you can do all the others while you're waiting for the calvary to arrive... ;)

B,
R

Is true, I mean you have to pass the time somehow, may as well get some training in while you're there cuz you may need it when the cavalry shows up. :D

Kevin Leavitt
01-05-2007, 03:04 PM
The question is how long can you hold him there?

How long do you have to hold him there?

What happens if no one comes?

What happens if he gets out?

What happens if you do injure his arm, but he still wants to fight you?

What other options do you have?

No right answers, simply questions that I think you need to really deeply explore if you are really concerned about this scenario.

statisticool
01-05-2007, 03:23 PM
Most likely taking an unprepared person to the ground hard will render them momentarily dazed and hurt (but hurt in a gentle aiki kind of way *wink*), giving you enough time to get away.

Kevin Leavitt
01-05-2007, 03:25 PM
But sometimes it doesn't. What then?

Neil Mick
01-05-2007, 03:35 PM
Is true, I mean you have to pass the time somehow, may as well get some training in while you're there cuz you may need it when the cavalry shows up. :D

Personally, I'd prefer to pass the time with a lively round of "knock-knock" jokes* ("Come on, Dude: play along! What ELSE have you got to do while waiting for the police!") :D :D

* (or, failing that: a rousing chorus of "Don't Worry; Be Happy**")

** ("If you try to break my FACE! Won't like de way I PIN you, in place! So don' worry...be happy...." :D )

James Davis
01-05-2007, 04:23 PM
Personally, I'd prefer to pass the time with a lively round of "knock-knock" jokes* ("Come on, Dude: play along! What ELSE have you got to do while waiting for the police!") :D :D

* (or, failing that: a rousing chorus of "Don't Worry; Be Happy**")

** ("If you try to break my FACE! Won't like de way I PIN you, in place! So don' worry...be happy...." :D )
:) Don't let him up until he sings along with you!

Or perhaps, "Hey buddy, howya doin'. I'm not really familiar with these rules. If you try to mug me and fail, do I get your money?" :p

NagaBaba
01-05-2007, 05:07 PM
Should you hold the pin indefinitely, ignoring his probably intense shouts of pain?
I really hope it is some kind of surrealistic joke, otherwise you are in a serious trouble.

1.Stop dreaming about fighting, aikido has nothing to do with fight.

2.You will never catch somebody in aikido pin in street situation -- well, may some school child or real looser, otherwise forget it.Street situation is whole other Univers then aikido dojo.
3.Aikido pins are not designed to hold somebody for more then 1-2 seconds. These pins are not 'user friendly' pins, not for attacker and not for defender.
4.The only realistic pin is a chock -- if your aikido instructor taught you it in proper way -- and this is VERY rare situation. Better to check it with your friendly judo or bjj folks.

hope it helps.

Aristeia
01-05-2007, 05:20 PM
I
2.You will never catch somebody in aikido pin in street situation -- well, may some school child or real looser, otherwise forget it..absolutely incorrect. One of my guys who's a LEO uses nikkyo type pins on hardened bad guys all the time.

Neil Mick
01-05-2007, 07:26 PM
:) Don't let him up until he sings along with you!

Or perhaps, "Hey buddy, howya doin'. I'm not really familiar with these rules. If you try to mug me and fail, do I get your money?" :p

That's probably the best one-liner to a mugger that I've ever heard! :D

I really hope it is some kind of surrealistic joke, otherwise you are in a serious trouble.

1.Stop dreaming about fighting, aikido has nothing to do with fight.

2.You will never catch somebody in aikido pin in street situation -- well, may some school child or real looser, otherwise forget it.Street situation is whole other Univers then aikido dojo.

Sorry to inform you, Szczepan, put Terry Dobson would disagree, I imagine.

At the one and only seminar of his I had the pleasure to attend, he related a story of a woman who used an ikkyo pin to foil a purse-snatcher (pinned his arm to her car)...after she had only been training six months! :eek:

Now, I'll grant you that the pin probably didn't look anything like a nice, neat dojo-pin. But I question that there are no street-applications to Aikido-pins.

They just need realtime modifications to fit the situation, IMO.

3.Aikido pins are not designed to hold somebody for more then 1-2 seconds. These pins are not 'user friendly' pins, not for attacker and not for defender.

I haven't a clue where you get this idea. Come to my dojo and we'll test it out...I'll pin you and I'll give you 10 seconds to get up.

Sure, some ppl are able to use force/wriggle out of my pins. But, that was because I didn't want to cause bodily harm to uke, in a lot of cases. Uke tries to roll over out of an ikkyo pin: and I could easily put the whole weight of my knee on his elbow, and pull his hair with my close hand. Not pretty, but effective.

4.The only realistic pin is a chock

A "chock?" What is this? Oh...you mean a choke! Sorry...understanding dawns. :)

Ketsan
01-05-2007, 07:37 PM
Personally, I'd prefer to pass the time with a lively round of "knock-knock" jokes* ("Come on, Dude: play along! What ELSE have you got to do while waiting for the police!") :D :D

* (or, failing that: a rousing chorus of "Don't Worry; Be Happy**")

** ("If you try to break my FACE! Won't like de way I PIN you, in place! So don' worry...be happy...." :D )

How about a philosophical discussion into the freudian underpinnings of the themes found in several of the more interesting episodes of Scooby Doo? :D

Ketsan
01-05-2007, 07:40 PM
I really hope it is some kind of surrealistic joke, otherwise you are in a serious trouble.

1.Stop dreaming about fighting, aikido has nothing to do with fight.

2.You will never catch somebody in aikido pin in street situation -- well, may some school child or real looser, otherwise forget it.Street situation is whole other Univers then aikido dojo.
3.Aikido pins are not designed to hold somebody for more then 1-2 seconds. These pins are not 'user friendly' pins, not for attacker and not for defender.
4.The only realistic pin is a chock -- if your aikido instructor taught you it in proper way -- and this is VERY rare situation. Better to check it with your friendly judo or bjj folks.

hope it helps.


I've pinned a rather large Judo guy with Aikido pins, he did his best but eventually he just tapped out.

eyrie
01-05-2007, 08:00 PM
I once pinned a bigger black belt jujitsuka with one finger...... I think it was definitely more than 1-2 sec, perhaps more like 30 secs, when he gave up fighting and said "OK... that was effective..."... Pity he didn't ask "how did you do THAT?"... ;)

Ketsan
01-05-2007, 08:10 PM
I once pinned a bigger black belt jujitsuka with one finger...... I think it was definitely more than 1-2 sec, perhaps more like 30 secs, when he gave up fighting and said "OK... that was effective..."... Pity he didn't ask "how did you do THAT?"... ;)

lol impressive :D

DonMagee
01-05-2007, 09:13 PM
I'm becoming more adept at escaping these kind of pins. The reason is simply that I fake it so they think they have it. Only very good practitioners realize they are not connected. Combine this with my training on how to move the body on the ground and I bet I can escape most of the time, IF you can get me into a pin like that (and I still say that is a big IF). Personally, I think they show expert control, just like doing judo kata. It shows perfect form and control, but in reality, you do nothing like that.

crbateman
01-05-2007, 09:14 PM
Knee-drop 'em and make 'em do the funky chicken...

Seriously, I've been in this situation three times in my life (no more than that, thankfully). Each time, I faced the guy down on the ground, sat on his back, and hollered at him not to move until the cops showed up. One guy listened, the second did not. Him, I reached around and claw-grabbed firmly by the larynx, triggering an immediate and lasting change in attitude. The third struggled, but I had my Glock with me, and he calmed down when he felt the business end against the nape of his neck. I have been lucky, and I hope that I am not tested again in this manner.

xuzen
01-05-2007, 10:06 PM
What happens after the pin?

A) In dojo practice, let uke go, then reverse role.

B) In Ancient Days Edo (old name for Tokyo), unsheathe wakizashi, slice opponent's throat. You only need one or two seconds to do that... therefore strong immobilization as seen in judo katamae-waza not necessary.

C) In modern days, break limbs to render aggressor unable to further threaten you, assuming your live is in mortal danger.

D) If you are dealing with a non lethal opponent and you need to control and seize opponent (e.g., not to get into nasty law suits), then the ability to transition and be mobile on the ground is necessary. Judo's osaekomi skills are good skills to have.

Boon.

Kevin Leavitt
01-06-2007, 04:58 AM
I have no issues with aikido pins they are principally sound. What I would be cautious about is fighting strictly from your aikido training paradigm.

Don I believe is saying this as well. They don't always work, and when your game plan fails, then you need to be prepared to move on to other things. It is not up to me to define these other things.

We seem to always end our thinking with the solution, well if it doesn't work...well just break his limb. The fight may not be over then.

How crass! Well just break his limb if your aikido fails! Ellis Amdur was just talking about this.

In my practice with non-compliant people, I have discovered that you have many more options if you train them, they don't involve pins that require the conditions to be 100% correct, nor do you escalate from gentle aikido pin to break his arm!

A good blood choke might not seem very civilized, but it renders even the most hopped up PCP addict limp, and buys you a few seconds to take other actions, and it does not cause him permanent damage. Just one option that might be available if you are truly concerned with reality outside of your aikido practice.

Al Williams
01-06-2007, 05:37 AM
The third struggled, but I had my Glock with me, and he calmed down when he felt the business end against the nape of his neck.

Clarke what were you planning to do with that Glock? Did he have a knife or gun still?

If you shot him- how could you justify your actions.? You already restrained him why did you need a higher level of force. You had control over the situation. When would you drawn the line and kill him. When he rolled over? When he refused to stop resisting the 4th time.

I find it difficult to understand why you would use the highest force option when you contained the situation with lower option. I think a court would as well.

statisticool
01-06-2007, 07:05 AM
But sometimes it doesn't. What then?

Pick up the person and throw them again.

crbateman
01-06-2007, 02:08 PM
Clarke what were you planning to do with that Glock? Did he have a knife or gun still?

If you shot him- how could you justify your actions.? You already restrained him why did you need a higher level of force. You had control over the situation. When would you drawn the line and kill him. When he rolled over? When he refused to stop resisting the 4th time.

I find it difficult to understand why you would use the highest force option when you contained the situation with lower option. I think a court would as well.
OK, so that you will have a better picture:

1) He had attacked me unprovoked with a hatchet. He did not know I was armed.

2) The hatchet was still within a short distance. I did not want to race him to get it.

3) The situation was NOT contained until the pistol came out. I was on his back, but he was angry, desperate, and still full of fight. I did NOT shoot him. The display of the weapon was to STOP the conflict. Whether or not firing would have been necessary was up to him. It was an option that I did not use, but with the weapon holstered it would have been unavailable in close contact, and a further struggle may have been unavoidable. This method brought a decisive end to the situation.

4) This was not a disagreement over a pack of smokes. If my life is in the balance, I'll utilize any means or opportunities at my disposal, and worry about the legal implications later. I hope you would, as well. But, just so you'll know, the law in Florida specifically permits the use of deadly force for self-protection, and to a lesser degree, even for the protection of property. Bad guy went to jail, and nobody died. Hopefully, you will now consider cutting me a little slack.

me32dc
01-06-2007, 02:43 PM
From a purely training position...
When the lock is on kiai is the way forward. They tap out when it starts to cause major discomfort, but not before the lock is actually applied. Otherwise you are wasting both peoples times.

Then as you release you move out of the way back into kamae. This is so you are out of the way before they are up and you are ready to go again if they attack again.

Same applies to the street i guess. But you can't say. Every fight will be different. Some people will run away if you apply a lock to them and release. Some will go for you again, anything could happen. This is why we keep training and do not keep set regimes of fights that might happen in our heads just in case. It does not work like that.

George S. Ledyard
01-06-2007, 03:23 PM
I really hope it is some kind of surrealistic joke, otherwise you are in a serious trouble.

1.Stop dreaming about fighting, aikido has nothing to do with fight.

2.You will never catch somebody in aikido pin in street situation -- well, may some school child or real looser, otherwise forget it.Street situation is whole other Univers then aikido dojo.
3.Aikido pins are not designed to hold somebody for more then 1-2 seconds. These pins are not 'user friendly' pins, not for attacker and not for defender.
4.The only realistic pin is a chock -- if your aikido instructor taught you it in proper way -- and this is VERY rare situation. Better to check it with your friendly judo or bjj folks.

hope it helps.

Once again, I find myself in agreement with our intrepid friend. If you are in a real confrontation you either need to disable that attacker, render him unconcious using impact techniques or choke him into unconciousness. Of these, the choke is by far the most user friendly for the attacker should you be worried about use of force issues.

The pinning techniques in Aikido are not generally submission type locks, they were originally simply a way to immobilize the attacker so you access his or your own weapon and finish him. This is symbolized by the strike after the pin that you see in many styles of Aikido and old films of O-Sensei. Some pins, like the seated nikkyo pin will holdn attacker for as long as you need but the issue of how you get away once you have subdued him alwasy comes up. Police can be quite a long time coming, the attacker may have friends around, the neighborhood may not be friendly, etc. The situation in which you would subdue an attacker and hold him till help arrives would be a rare one. Learn how to apply some choking techniques and practice how to get the entry on a subject who is resisting. Make sure your atemi waza are actually functional.

NagaBaba
01-07-2007, 09:49 AM
absolutely incorrect. One of my guys who's a LEO uses nikkyo type pins on hardened bad guys all the time.
really.Good for him.
How about your own experience about aikido pins in real life?
Sorry to inform you, Szczepan, put Terry Dobson would disagree, I imagine.
Sorry to inform you, Neil, Terry isn't my favorite story teller :D . Check by yourself then come back to tell us YOUR story :p

I've pinned a rather large Judo guy with Aikido pins, he did his best but eventually he just tapped out.
There may be some exceptions, but they are simply confirm a rule.And we are talking here about street situations.... ;)
I once pinned a bigger black belt jujitsuka with one finger......
Me recently I pinned a running bull only by extending my KI, actually he was 15 feets from me. Not big deal. I do such things even before breakfast. :rolleyes:

Aristeia
01-07-2007, 01:13 PM
really.Good for him.
How about your own experience about aikido pins in real life? never been in a fight so can't help you there.

There may be some exceptions, but they are simply confirm a rule.actually no, exceptions throw a rule into question. I'll stipulate that the pins may be harder to get than in the dojo, that you need a greater deal of skill or even attributes to put them into effect. But the "rule" you threw out was pretty absolutist - you will never catch someone with a pin. And I know enough people that have to say that's simply not true.

Kevin Leavitt
01-07-2007, 01:24 PM
I can safely say that aikido pins do not work in a fight, because as far as I know aikido does not have a patent on any of the pins, and therefore, they are simply pins and nothing else.

I will say that I have used pins, submissions, arm locks, and joint manipulations, that resemble things that I have seen in my aikido training from time to time.

We all have a idea fixed in our head about what belongs within the parameters of aikido and what does not, which really is very silly if you think about it, and very dangerous if you confine yourself to this paradigm in real life.

All that said....Pins are not permanent regardless of the situation. at some point you will have to remove yourself from that pin. It could be when the police get there, it could be when another person arrives (both positive or negatvive in nature), it could be when he escapes.

If this is a concern of yours...do what George said above...learn blood chokes, they are your best friend in realty.

charyuop
01-07-2007, 02:07 PM
I think nobody mentioned something. Human body has a good degree of adaptability. Your body can soon overcome a pain coming from a still position like a pin, giving time to think and react.
The idea of holding a pin forever or very long period of time in my opinion is not something real... unless you keep modifing the pin and thus modify the pain inflicted.

Neil Mick
01-07-2007, 02:22 PM
Sorry to inform you, Neil, Terry isn't my favorite story teller :D .

Ooh, you philistine! :p

Check by yourself then come back to tell us YOUR story :p

I think I will decline on your invitation, Szczepan. One of the things martial arts (and life) has taught me is not to go out and look for trouble...trouble often has a way of finding you.

So, I'll just take Terry's word (and the word of several ppl here attesting to their usage in RT) for it that Aikido-pins work, over the claims of a few other guys who say that it doesn't.

If I ever have the misfortune of having to test my belief, I'll let you know the result.

P.S. Terry ALSO said at that seminar that he stayed with Aikido because O-Sensei never pretended to "have all the answers." Not exactly a "preacher of doctrine" was Terry, if you follow my drift.

DonMagee
01-07-2007, 03:14 PM
Or you could not take anyone's word, and test it.

Neil Mick
01-07-2007, 08:00 PM
Or you could not take anyone's word, and test it.

I believe that that is called "training."

The rest, IMO, is bluster.

Michael Hackett
01-07-2007, 09:40 PM
Sankyo and nikkyo both worked really well for me as a cop, particularly with fighting drunks and drunk drivers. Those were the only two "aikido pins" that I learned in the academy so I can't attest to ikkyo, yonkyo or gokkyu pins in actual situations. They worked long enough and well enough for me to gain control of the suspect and get him cuffed. The carotid sleeper hold (what I think Kevin is calling a blood choke) is very effective too and once saved my hide after I was injured. One downside to the carotid sleeper is that most apply it with their strong side arm and that leaves their firearm exposed to grabs from others.

Sankyo is particularly good for removing a DUI from his vehicle when he plants himself and gets a death grip on the steering wheel. YMMV.

Thalib
01-08-2007, 04:06 AM
Gosh... what happens after the pin...?

Me... I'd rather not to go into a fight... so after the immobilization or disarmament... if and when I was able to do it... I would probably walk away... keeping in zanshin to see if he attacks me again...

Keep doing it until I find a safe haven...

In the real world out there, a one-on-one fight might just be an idealism. Your opponent's friend might just be right around the corner, waiting to beat the hell out of you.

If your life is in danger and not much choice is given to you, let's say kill or be killed... well, you could permanently immobilize him... if this means killing him, then you should be able to take the consequences of your actions.

As for me... I would probably use it to buy time and get the hell outta there, if possible that is. I would not spend time in the ground more than a second as another attacker might be waiting around the corner. Might use the opponent as a shield when doing standing pin.

This is all good in theory... in reality I might just deflect-deflect-redirect-misdirect-runaway... no pins involved

Amir Krause
01-08-2007, 06:24 AM
What happens AFTER the pin?

The fight is not yet over, this is the first thing to remember if you bother thinking about such a situation. You were lucky and skilled and got into a slightly better situation, but be careful, it is not yet over!

Any answer beyond that would depend on the circumstances: How did we get to this point?
If this is a friendly proof of prowess, you can slap your friend on the back, release him and be ready to start again.
If this is fight, what is the current situation? Does he have any friend about to come down on you? IS he still struggling? Do you feel in control or is he going to slip out any second? Do you have any friends to help you out (while you are pinning him, you are also limited)?
If you are in control - what was your goal in this fight? Do you need to call the police? Should you take back your property? Did he have a weapon you should be careful of or does he have one in his pocket?

lots of questions, and your own character, those are the things that will decide what is to come. Since you are in the better position. You should be able to:
a. Release him
b. Talk to him from your dominating position.
c. strike him almost with impunity.
d. Damage his joints.
...

Amir

Kevin Leavitt
01-08-2007, 03:22 PM
Thanks Mike!


Michael Hackett wrote:

One downside to the carotid sleeper is that most apply it with their strong side arm and that leaves their firearm exposed to grabs from others.

Believe it or not, I recently moved my handgun to my left hip. Of course I am not a cop, and in the military. My strong side is my right side, I also fire my M4 from the right shoulder. After drilling use of my weapons in close quarters, and simulating jams, and hand to hand scenarios, it was more efficient, and more protective of my handgun to move it to the left.

Michael Hackett
01-08-2007, 03:47 PM
The handgun is only to keep their heads down while you reload your rifle anyway. Seriously, moving to the weak side for a secondary firearm is a good idea in many ways. I caution against crossdraw holsters however because it is easier for someone to grab from the front and a suspect/opponent can push your drawing arm across your body to prevent you from drawing the weapon. I imagine that you are carrying a flapped holster with the butt to the rear so those shouldn't be of any real concern.

I learned to do the carotid with my left arm to help with weapon retention. My biggest fear was losing my handgun in a bar brawl or something. Most of us carried two handguns for just that reason, usually in an ankle holster or similar.

Welcome back to CONUS. Hope you can find a house and a dojo near wherever you're working.

Kevin Leavitt
01-08-2007, 04:46 PM
Michael Hackett wrote:

the weak side for a secondary firearm is a good idea in many ways. I caution against crossdraw holsters however because it is easier for someone to grab from the front and a suspect/opponent can push your drawing arm across your body to prevent you from drawing the weapon. I imagine that you are carrying a flapped holster with the butt to the rear so those shouldn't be of any real concern.


I have a left handed molded plastic holster with a quick draw thumb release. It is difficult to get out unless you are drawing it from the correct position. Someone would essentially have to be behind you.

I have seen guys wear them cross draw on the chest, not a good idea in most situations for the very reason you state.

thanks.

George S. Ledyard
01-10-2007, 11:11 PM
Sankyo and nikkyo both worked really well for me as a cop, particularly with fighting drunks and drunk drivers. Those were the only two "aikido pins" that I learned in the academy so I can't attest to ikkyo, yonkyo or gokkyu pins in actual situations. They worked long enough and well enough for me to gain control of the suspect and get him cuffed.

These "seated" pins are by far the most useful for law enforcement purposes but they aren't unbeatable... I had a Mercer Island officer training with me in Defensive Tactics and he was a true beastie boy. He bench pressed 425 lbs. and you needed two sets of cuffs linked together to cuff him as his arms wouldn't go close enough together to use just one pair.

Anyway, he could simply muscle out of pin. It was unbeleivable. I am around 300 lbs and can put a lot of force into the pin but he could still simply muscle out of it. There are guys who are chemically enhanced or on alcohol and they won't feel any injury they are doing to themselves. You either completely rip their arm out and disable them or they beat the pin.

The "sleeper hold" is by far the most reliable technique but in many places, it is considered deadly force and can't be used on e-ggressive or simply aggressive subjects. The subject would need to be pretty much trying to kill or maim you to justify using the "sleeper" in many places. Folks are trying to get this changed as there is excellent statistical data available that the localities that didn't get rid of the sleeper hold (Kansas City for example) had far fewer subject and officer injuries.

Walter Martindale
01-10-2007, 11:48 PM
These "seated" pins are by far the most useful for law enforcement purposes but they aren't unbeatable... I
(snip)

The "sleeper hold" is by far the most reliable technique but in many places, it is considered deadly force and can't be used on e-ggressive or simply aggressive subjects. The subject would need to be pretty much trying to kill or maim you to justify using the "sleeper" in many places. Folks are trying to get this changed as there is excellent statistical data available that the localities that didn't get rid of the sleeper hold (Kansas City for example) had far fewer subject and officer injuries.

I've not ever been in a dust-up or a life-death situation (well, not against other humans - A tree took my hard hat off, with one limb sliding behind my back and one pinning the chainsaw to my lap once, a long time ago)
The "sleeper" or other shime-waza from judo may be useful but there's the fellow's friends to worry about. A national judo champion (won't name names here) was working in a bar in a small Canadian prairie city, when he assisted an individual to the sidewalk outside of the bar (it may have been a seoi nage), and was applying one of the juji-jime to the person when he had the tip of a knife appear out of the front of his chest. somehow nothing truly critical was hit and he lived to tell, but there's the risk of taking too much time to choke someone out (mere seconds) while his buddies take sides.
Do you whump the person to the ground and then look around for his buddies?
Do you hit him with the planet in a "there, I'm in control, is this over?" way the first time and in a "this time stay down" way the second time, all the while watching for his friends?

Sorry I can't answer these questions myself, but they do bear asking, don't they?
Walter

thinking
01-11-2007, 12:13 AM
Most pins involving joint locks. can brake joints with the Right amount of force. so if more force was needed after a pin well then i guess i just answered your ?

xuzen
01-11-2007, 01:30 AM
I've not ever been in a dust-up or a life-death situation (well, not against other humans - A tree took my hard hat off, with one limb sliding behind my back and one pinning the chainsaw to my lap once, a long time ago)
The "sleeper" or other shime-waza from judo may be useful but there's the fellow's friends to worry about. A national judo champion (won't name names here) was working in a bar in a small Canadian prairie city, when he assisted an individual to the sidewalk outside of the bar (it may have been a seoi nage), and was applying one of the juji-jime to the person when he had the tip of a knife appear out of the front of his chest. somehow nothing truly critical was hit and he lived to tell, but there's the risk of taking too much time to choke someone out (mere seconds) while his buddies take sides.
Do you whump the person to the ground and then look around for his buddies?
Do you hit him with the planet in a "there, I'm in control, is this over?" way the first time and in a "this time stay down" way the second time, all the while watching for his friends?

Sorry I can't answer these questions myself, but they do bear asking, don't they?
Walter

Trying to do jujutsu/karate/aikido or whatever when you are alone and your opponent have buddies to back them up is just plain stupid and dangerous. In any modern physical altercation, your role as a civilian is to Disengage, ask for help (scream or yell whatever to bring attention to your distress).

Let the trained authority do the Law enforcement. If you intend to make Citizen's arrest, make sure you have the necessary tools or manpower to carry out the job. Don't be a hero. Make a calculated risk before engaging.

I too was very concern about self defense etc.... Now, I am more concern about Self Preservation. With a family depending on you bringing food to the table tends to make a person more calculative about the decisions one makes.

Boon.

Michael Hackett
01-11-2007, 01:42 AM
Ledyard Sensei is correct. There are some rascals that the pins I mentioned won't work on very well and that does create a rub for an officer. The electric shocking devices such as the Taser appear to be solving a lot of problems with violent offenders.

Unfortunately the carotid sleeper hold has been demonized by the media and some departments across the country. The idea that the carotid sleeper will cause death has largely been debunked by the scientific community, but it still persists. I attended an In-Custody Death seminar in November and had the privilege of hearing a number of research physicians discussing the use of the Taser, carotid sleeper hold, and chemical agents such as OC, as well as discussing positional asphyxia and excited delirium. Really interesting stuff.

The bar-arm choke on the other hand is significantly more dangerous to the suspect and has clearly resulted in deaths. For those who aren't familiar with it, the bar-arm choke is applied from the rear with the forearm across the front of the throat. It chokes off breathing, but can seriously damage the throat organs in such a way the subject is unable to breathe after the choke has been released. I haven't heard of any police agencies in the US that still allow the bar-arm.

George S. Ledyard
01-11-2007, 09:13 AM
The "sleeper" or other shime-waza from judo may be useful but there's the fellow's friends to worry about. A national judo champion (won't name names here) was working in a bar in a small Canadian prairie city, when he assisted an individual to the sidewalk outside of the bar (it may have been a seoi nage), and was applying one of the juji-jime to the person when he had the tip of a knife appear out of the front of his chest. somehow nothing truly critical was hit and he lived to tell, but there's the risk of taking too much time to choke someone out (mere seconds) while his buddies take sides.
Do you whump the person to the ground and then look around for his buddies?

In the old days before "political correctness" and "community policing" etc. officers moved in fast and simply knocked the subject out. Uniform pants had a "sap pocket" and hitting a subject over the head with a stick wasn't considered deadly force. The Tazer is probably the closest thing we have these days in terms of immediate and quite reliable results. ir has the advantage of also allowing distance which the old methods did not.

But nothing takes the place of "back-up"! If you are working alone in law enforcement or even club security, you are taking your life in your hands. The issue of friends or family in the crowd is ever present and it isn't always eveident at the moment who they are. The number of people who get blind sided by another participant they hadn't counted on is very high.

As civilians we should try to NEVER intervene in any situation alone. It's just too risky. If you have a friend, tell him specifically to watch your back rather than to try to assist you. If you don't have the skill to finish it on your own, you probably shouldn't be intervening in the first place. We lost a very nice young man who, with the best of intentions, tried to intervene to save a woman who was being beaten during WTO in Seattle. He didn't have the skills necessary and they simply killed him.

In my Defensive Tactics Classes, the very first thing I teach the students is how to go to the center and knock the subject out. It's right out of the old "model mugging" book. Go for the eyes - that brings the head back and exposes the groin, knee the groin - that brings the head down and then knee the head until the subject is unconscious. Depending on the threat level some gouging and elbows strikes may be thrown in as well.

AFTER the students begin to be able to protect themselves if things go wrong, I start working on the low level force techniques like takedowns and restraints. This is pirmarily to promote officer safety but it is also practical. You cannot do effective technique if you are tense. If you are afraid, you will not be able to do good low level force techniques. If you are constantly afraid that, if it starts to get out of control you will be injured or killed, then you will not only be to tense to be effective but are far more likely to escalate the use of force unneccesarily. If you have confidence that you can end it quickly and effectively if things get rough, you can exercise far more restraint.

This is why atemi waza is an integral part of any serious approach to devloping martial skill in Aikido. If you look at the parent art, Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, there are multiple atemi in every single technique. There is a strike on every "entry" in the basic forms that I have seen. The Aiki Budo taught by O-Sensei in the 1930's still retained this feature. One can see this in the old Noma Dojo pictures that Stan Pranin has been trying to catalogue and publish.

In post war Aikido these strikes become much more implicit rather than explicit leading to the mistaken belief that Aikido done as self defense can somehow magically not hurt the attacker with skill and intention. While it may be true that, at an exceptional level of skill that might be possible, there are very few people who attain that level. When we talk about not "harming" the attacker, we are talking about not KILLING him. By martial arts standards, that is considered a restrained response. If he is knocked out or a limb is broken or dislocated, that may very well be a compassionate response when compared to the possibility of having to shoot him or stab him to defend oneself.

Restraints, takedowns and pins are skills that exist for the benefit of the subject. If you intend to protect yourself with any degree of reliability, you need to make sure that you can strike effectively and can do at least one choke properly. A solid koshinage is probably also a good tool since it is a fight ender for most folks if not done on a mat in a dojo.

Ron Tisdale
01-11-2007, 11:31 AM
Excellent posts George, Thanks!

Best,
Ron

David Orange
01-11-2007, 12:02 PM
If you make that your first resort, you can do all the others while you're waiting for the calvary to arrive... ;)

You mean, wait for Jesus to come again? :D

David

xuzen
01-11-2007, 09:42 PM
...<snip>...A solid koshinage is probably also a good tool since it is a fight ender for most folks if not done on a mat in a dojo.

George,

Good post. Speaking of koshi-nage, in my first ever randori with a judo-ka he got me with a very quick morote-seoi nage. I flip over his shoulder and landed directly on my butt. The impact on the mat stunned me.. and my whole lower body went numb and had to be carried out to the side for Kappo treatment. I felt for myself, what a fight ender actually meant. And that throw was done on a mat... imagine the consequences of throwing like that on tarmac.

Boon.

Erik Calderon
01-17-2007, 09:24 AM
What happens after the pin? That is a good question...

I used a pin in a real life situation. The guy did not get up, I walked out of the night club and he did not follow, nor did any of his friends.

I guess I got lucky.

I think a physcologist would be best to answer this question. Because the idea is not to just pin the person, but to subdue the attack on a mental level. Maybe you don't even have to use a pin to do that.

Reading, "The Art of War," by Sun Tsu helps understand this point very clearly.