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Franco
12-12-2006, 08:55 AM
Hello,

I was reading the long thread titled "non-compliant ukemi" and I get the impression that most everyone contributing on this forum has been training for many years. Is that the case? I guess it's humbling for me to read about people taking ukemi from Saotome Shihan back in the '80s, or using terms that are unknown to me, such as "internal skills". Humbling but at the same time encouraging to see how other people have dedicated themselves to martial training for so long.

I have only been training for almost 4 years and have a 2nd kyu rank. Maybe I caught brown belt syndrome.

Nick Pagnucco
12-12-2006, 09:17 AM
Similar to you, I've been practicing for just under 5 years.

There are several different kinds of people who post here, from what I can tell:

You have the people who have been training for decades in aikido. Not everyone, but there are senior aikidoka out and about around here.
You then have other people who have training in different martial arts. The names we hear about a lot right now are Mike Sigman, Dan Harden, Rob John, or Ellis Amdur, but there are others. We have people who post who train in Judo, BJJ, Jeet Kun Do, Sambo, and a few other things. And not all of them have aikido as their current primary art.
Third, you have people who are "too big for britches." These are people who are in over their heads, and use terminology that they don't truly understand. Maybe they think they do, or maybe their trying to get some respect... who knows.
Then you have The Clueless (tm), like me*. People who are very aware of what they don't know more than what they do know. Sometimes we make insightful posts, sometimes our posts are nothing but awkward. But the point is some people post just to ask questions.

These are not exclusive categories, but they're how I've started to see people.

As for the 'internal' stuff, I've begun to see it as being similar to discussions about 'philosophy' or 'effectiveness.' Independent of the value of the topic, threads tend to generate a life of their own, disconnecting from any and all other issues in aikido. This is a shame, because they should connect, but people are at their best and worst when we're discussing internal/kokyu/ki.

Now, as to why kokyu/ki/internal has become so important in the last few years... well, thats a whole different thread.


* I endeavor to avoid being in the too big for britches category, but I doubt I've been perfectly successful.

DonMagee
12-12-2006, 09:18 AM
Well I'm only 26 years old. However I do remember the doctor dropping me at birth and screaming at me to slap.

Ron Tisdale
12-12-2006, 09:27 AM
:) That was funny, Don...

Nick, that was a pretty good assessment!

Franco, take everything you read with a bit of common sense. I think as you get out and meet people on the mat, it all get's sorted out, one way or the other.

Best,
Ron

Nick Pagnucco
12-12-2006, 09:44 AM
Well I'm only 26 years old. However I do remember the doctor dropping me at birth and screaming at me to slap.

I now have an image of a newborn putting an ankle lock on a doctor who dropped him.

Thanks, I think? :confused:



And thanks, Ron.

Robert Rumpf
12-12-2006, 03:54 PM
Yeah.. its odd how experienced everyone seemingly is, in spite of the fact that in all of my years of training, in all of the dojos that I've been to, I've only met 4-5 of the people on this web site in real life. Perhaps if I went to Aiki-Expo... After Dennis Hooker's thread, I've realized that this is in fact because many or most of the most vocal people here don't actually train in Aikido, so I'd have to try other arts to meet them.

It also makes it more clear to me just how large the Aikido community actually is, how much variety there is in technique and practice, and that if you don't get out much, you don't meet many of the practitioners or see their techniques. I certainly don't go out much these days. Additionally, most of the best Aikidoka I've met, known, heard about, and seen are smart enough to avoid posting on this site.. :)

But still, I've got to do something when I get sick of writing code.

Rob

Mike Sigman
12-12-2006, 05:18 PM
Well I'm only 26 years old. However I do remember the doctor dropping me at birth and screaming at me to slap.http://www.neijia.com/BABY.MPE

Alfonso
12-12-2006, 05:45 PM
this is in fact because many or most of the most vocal people here don't actually train in Aikido, so I'd have to try other arts to meet them.

hmm.. not really

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/memberlist.php?postslower=0&postsupper=0&ausername=&homepage=&icq=&aim=&yahoo=&msn=&joindateafter=&joindatebefore=&lastpostafter=&lastpostbefore=&order=DESC&sort=posts&pp=30&ltr=

Robert Rumpf
12-12-2006, 07:17 PM
hmm.. not really

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/memberlist.php?postslower=0&postsupper=0&ausername=&homepage=&icq=&aim=&yahoo=&msn=&joindateafter=&joindatebefore=&lastpostafter=&lastpostbefore=&order=DESC&sort=posts&pp=30&ltr=

An interesting set of data. I can't help but notice how many of the top 20 to 30 don't post here anymore... Those numbers are accumulated over a large amount of time. I wonder what the distribution is like locally these days.

Rob

graham
12-12-2006, 07:29 PM
Been training in martial arts for about 24 years, but only in Aikido for about 6 months. However, I've also noticed that there are many "experts" here on Aikiweb.

Yet, in reality, I've only met a handful of people who've studied any one art for more than a decade. So, I feel quite honoured that my Sensei has studied for so long.

Thom Hansen
12-12-2006, 08:42 PM
Well I'v been training in aikido (In Feb 2007) for 23 years .. and still have plenty to learn

batemanb
12-13-2006, 01:12 AM
An interesting set of data. I can't help but notice how many of the top 20 to 30 don't post here anymore... Those numbers are accumulated over a large amount of time. I wonder what the distribution is like locally these days.

Rob

Wow, I made the top 20 poster list! :blush:

I don't post much these days because I don't have much to say, in fact seeing that list I'm very surprised because I really never had anything to say.

Whilst not posting much, I still check in here mosts mornings to see what's going on, there's always a nugget here or there.

rgds
Bryan

DonMagee
12-13-2006, 05:45 AM
Remember, just because someone speaks with authority, that does not make them an expert. It only makes them opinionated. An expert is not made, they are recognized. Anyone calling themselves an expert is usually full of it.

Mato-san
12-13-2006, 07:57 AM
I have less experience than most of you guys, but I would like to comment on how the real guys handle themselves.
Recently I attended the yearly party for our Aikido club, Bonenkai, we had lots to drink and the party was filled with faces I had never seen before (but obviously these guys were in it for real) Sensei himself was uchideshi of Tohei Sensei. I noticed a pattern of less talk, loads of respect in a general direction of Shihan. As the party moved to a small tatami room I was making great communications with a man who was a quiet gentleman, later exchanging friendly sankyo over the sake and getting deep and meaningful Aikido concepts on the table (I had no idea who this man was, I knew he was a highly respected Shihan) ,after we all went back to our rooms I was told this man was a student of O`sensei himself, even carried O`senseis bags on the trip to Hawaii! The man I will not name out of respect for his nature, carried himself so well, was such a gentleman and after being in Aikido over 50 years he really knew his stuff, but gave me the world of respect as newbie and I believe this was great Aikido spirit! I was the guy in the room that had the least rank....and the highest ranking Aikidoka gave me heaps of Aikido love.......what an experience I will never forget.
Best

Robert Rumpf
12-13-2006, 02:40 PM
I have less experience than most of you guys, but I would like to comment on how the real guys handle themselves.

All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.

The only problem with admitting it is that you are the mercy of those who have themselves brainwashed otherwise, and therefor feel free to contradict a "fake."

rachmass
12-13-2006, 08:48 PM
Wow, I made the top 20 poster list! :blush:

I don't post much these days because I don't have much to say, in fact seeing that list I'm very surprised because I really never had anything to say.

Whilst not posting much, I still check in here mosts mornings to see what's going on, there's always a nugget here or there.

rgds
Bryan

Wow, me too! I had no idea I had posted that much. I still read the threads but just am too busy to post much, plus it doesn't make a lot of sense to post when you don't have much to add (other that I am still around, so those number who aren't active anymore might still be lurking). Cheers.

Mike Hamer
12-14-2006, 12:07 AM
I've only been training for about 8 months......

aikidoc
12-14-2006, 08:53 AM
An interesting set of data. I can't help but notice how many of the top 20 to 30 don't post here anymore... Those numbers are accumulated over a large amount of time. I wonder what the distribution is like locally these days.

Rob

Looking at the list, I'd say about 60-70%.

Amanda
12-15-2006, 05:16 AM
Well I've only been training a year. But I don't post that often. :D

billybob
12-15-2006, 08:21 AM
"The nail that sticks up gets hammered down".

Yup. Too big for my britches. Will I ever learn? Maybe. Will I end up humble? Probably not.

dave

Roman Kremianski
12-15-2006, 08:53 AM
I'm 17, but I've been training for 30 years too! Honest!

rob_liberti
12-15-2006, 09:08 AM
Between a baby and injured wife and my job taking up 100% of my time for a long time something had to give and it was posting here.

Also, this forum was starting to suck the life out of me given my excessive personality (which is good for training) and some lonely people's skill for engaging any sort of connection through being mean when they could have just been helpful. I was tired of reading that my responses to someone's nasty persecusion complex was my being passive aggressive (I was always quite active and assertive if you ask me). Or if I challenged one of the supporting statements of someone's deduction, being told I was making a straw man arguement. It sucked the life out of me after a while.

Regardless, Dan Harden showed me some excellent excercises. I spend most of my free time doing them now. -Rob

Mike Sigman
12-15-2006, 09:31 AM
I was tired of reading that my responses to someone's nasty persecusion complex was my being passive aggressive (I was always quite active and assertive if you ask me). Or if I challenged one of the supporting statements of someone's deduction, being told I was making a straw man arguement. It sucked the life out of me after a while.

Regardless, Dan Harden showed me some excellent excercises. I spend most of my free time doing them now. -RobWell... I think I know to whom you're referring in your non-passive-aggressive way there, Rob, and I'm sure you didn't mean to be passive aggressive by bringing in something totally extraneous like that.......

However, more to the point, when last seen on the forum, you were talking (in a non-passive-agressive way, of course) about how you already knew most of this stuff via Saotome, Gleason, etc., and now you're publicly posting that you've discovered this new-to-you material from Dan Harden which sounds exactly like the stuff I was trying to tell you about. I'm simply puzzled as hell...... ;)

Why not let's jump-shift off the personality-swipe stuff because I don't see how you can sustain it, frankly, and because I simply don't want to continue with that crap. How about some pure discussions on what you encountered, how you analyse them, etc., instead of the digressions? I'll be happy to discuss at that level of analysis.... and that's what I was doing at one time, if you'll check the archives.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

akiy
12-15-2006, 09:46 AM
Can we stay out of discussions of a personal nature, please?

-- Jun

Adam Alexander
12-15-2006, 10:45 AM
Hello,

I was reading the long thread titled "non-compliant ukemi" and I get the impression that most everyone contributing on this forum has been training for many years. Is that the case?

I wouldn't say that's the case, but I would say that your best bet would be to only take their advice;)


An interesting set of data. I can't help but notice how many of the top 20 to 30 don't post here anymore...

I'm not too far off from that rank and I stopped posting for the most part. I would say it's because Aikido taught me a couple valuable lessons and helped me grow up...a little.

rob_liberti
12-15-2006, 07:39 PM
The question was why so many posters weren't posting. Sorry, Jun, but it was "personal".

Mike,
It's been so long. Love and kisses right back at you.
I still feel that Saotome and Gleason sensei have wonderful kokyu. Saotome sensei was a shihan before I was born,so I may not catch him anytime soon. Gleason sensei practices using his sword daily. I can't get away with that in my office right now but I can do exercises Dan showed me. I think his way may be faster. I bought your tapes too you know. I never said I wasn't looking for better/other ways. I just didn't think your way by tape worked too well for me. Now I have access indirectly to Wang Hai Jun and directly to Dan - both of whom are remarkably helpful without having to be mean. I hope that is active and assertive enough. I won't even attempt to get a last word. I may not bother to check this board for another 18 months. I'm much younger than you, I can simply wait.
Hug,
Rob

Mike Sigman
12-16-2006, 08:04 AM
I still feel that Saotome and Gleason sensei have wonderful kokyu. Saotome sensei was a shihan before I was born,so I may not catch him anytime soon. Gleason sensei practices using his sword daily. Maybe the very first thing you should do, before you start throwing the word "kokyu" around, is to decide exactly what "kokyu" is. Try a definition.

I asked a pretty serious question, Rob, and it's still there. Logically, if you didn't know the kokyu/jin things that Dan showed you, then you cannot be in a position to assert who has kokyu because you're unfamiliar with it. So your remark, which is an assertion you also made some time ago, that Gleason and Saotome have "wonderful kokyu" is untenable, logically. And I'm not going to be the only one spotting that logical gap, Rob. If no one is supposed to mention it, fine, but that doesn't make it go away.

But let's say that in reality, one or both of those men has "wonderful kokyu"... why didn't they teach you even the basics so that you could recognize basic performances when you see them done by Dan? Maybe you mean something else and that's why I'm asking you a question *in relation to assertions you made.* Now I have access indirectly to Wang Hai Jun and directly to Dan - both of whom are remarkably helpful without having to be mean. I doubt you're going to come in as an outsider and get more help than Wang Hai Jun's own students do, Rob. I'll say the same thing that I said to Dan.... there are a lot of people that like and respect Wang Hai Jun and they don't like seeing his name "dropped" as some casual, helpful guy (read "familiarly"). It would be about the same as me dropping Saotome's name as someone I was getting useful information from... you might see the point. Insofar as anyone being "mean"... :rolleyes: I may not bother to check this board for another 18 months. I'm much younger than you, I can simply wait. Class act, Rob.

Mike

Niadh
12-16-2006, 06:14 PM
Been training in martial arts for about 24 years, but only in Aikido for about 6 months. However, I've also noticed that there are many "experts" here on Aikiweb.

Sorry, but this begs for the best definifiton i have heard for an expert.
An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know absolutely everything about absolutely nothing.
lol
Niadh

roninroshi
12-16-2006, 07:55 PM
Probably does'nt count for much on an Aiki forum,but I began training in Karate in 1958 and have been involved in various MA, Aikido and Aikijitsu included ever since...

Niadh
12-17-2006, 10:29 AM
Sorry, but this begs for the best definifiton i have heard for an expert.
An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know absolutely everything about absolutely nothing.
lol
Niadh
Graham,
Sorry that quote should have started with the "many experts here part
Niadh

Kim Rivers
12-18-2006, 10:25 AM
Sorry, but this begs for the best definifiton i have heard for an expert.
An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know absolutely everything about absolutely nothing.
lol
Niadh

I love this definition Niadh. Makes me want to get it printed on little cards and pass them out when someone names themselves an expert. I wonder how well that would go over?

So I was reflecting on this and thinking there are moments that it appears an aikidoka can appear to be an expert. Say as in th erole of the teacher for the class or if they are of higher rank than fellow students. It could be very tempting to let this illusion fly too and I recall when I received my brown belt I had a phase of being "too big for my britches" in this way.

Thankfully Within our particular aikido community I was reminded by both word and deed of other higher ranks and our founder that EVERYONE has something to teach and something to learn. It is a disservice to all, including the self to let the ego get out of control and taint the moment of connection between aikidoka, no matter their place on the path of training or whether they get to wear fancy pants.

Now as a nidan and an instructor of my own branch dojo, I am really grateful for all the students, especially the new student, as I know I'm going to learn so much. -Kim