To sutemi, or not to sutemi

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[wildaikido]

Hello all. In the style of Aikido I study, Yoseikan we practice quite a few judo techniques. I previous started a thread discussing ashi waza and would now like to discuss sutemi waza, that's sacrifice throws. These are where you fall (or throw yourself) to the ground to unbalance and throw uke (think tomoe nage, the one where you fall back and use your foot to throw the other guy over, its in quite a few movies). Now first of lets not say 'we' (any styles) don't learn/practice these because they are impractical against multiple attackers, because we all (I assume) practice pinning techniques and these are impractical against multiple attackers.
So what, if any of you practice them, do you think about them, and what that don't practice, do you think? Again I would love to get a discussion going that includes all styles. Also when I was in England last year I practice at a Tomiki school and the sensei told me that they (as in Tomiki Aikido) use to practice sutemi waza but in the 70's or 80's they where band in competition so they are now no longer practiced. Any thoughts (or corrections) on this would also be appreciated.

PS if you still have no idea what a sutemi waza look like the here is a few page to look at these.
http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/tomoenag.gif
http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/sumigaeshi.gif
http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ukiwaza.htm
http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/yokootoshi.htm

[Carlos]

Originally posted by wildaikido
Hello all. In the style of Aikido I study, Yoseikan we practice quite a few judo techniques. I previous started a thread discussing ashi waza and would now like to discuss sutemi waza, that's sacrifice throws.

Graham,

I praticed Aikido (Aikikai) since 1993, before that I praticed 2 1/2 years Tae Kwon Do and Judo when I was a child.

I like the sutemi waza and use very often when I do jiu waza with one or two uke.

The major problem with that kind of technique, is that you became vulnerable for a few seconds. If you throw one uke far away and apply sutemi with the second near it's okay, but rise fast. :)

regard's

Carlos

http://aikido.paginainicial.com.br

[PeterR]

Originally posted by wildaikido
Also when I was in England last year I practice at a Tomiki school and the sensei told me that they (as in Tomiki Aikido) use to practice sutemi waza but in the 70's or 80's they where band in competition so they are now no longer practiced.
I did not hear the above before there are many waza practiced in Tomiki dojos that are not allowed in competition so I don't see this as the reason. I have used some do or die techniques in randori but if you want to do grappling shiai you do judo. Most sutemi waza are Judo techniques.

[wildaikido]

The thing many people seam to think of when I say 'judo waza' is we say 'okay no more hitting or striking its time to grab and grapple'. We practice our 'judo waza' against shomen uchi and different tsukis we don't grab/grapple as in judo, although I believe some yoseikan schools might.
Now most sutemi waza are JUJUTSU techniques (it would be interesting to note that may of the sutemi waza we practice are not listed in Kodokan Judo our any other resource) and Osensei study about 5 different jujutsu styles as well as having many great judo students. So what I suppose I really want to know now is did Osensei practice any, or teach any to other students i.e. Saito or his son?
As well as wanting to know if any of the judo background schools still practice them i.e. Tomiki and Yoshinkan, or if they ever did?
Carlos, this can be a problem so we practice 'rising' methods just incase you have another attacker. But I believe the schools standard approach is to throw then roll on to them applying a restriction (shime waza) or a pin of some kind. What do other practitioner and the sensei think when you do them in class?
So Peter the under lying question remains, do you practice sutemi waza or not, or have you seen any in Tomiki?

[Olaf]

Dear all,
I just came back from Saotome Sensei's France seminar, and, just like at other seminars before, we did practice both ashi waza and sutemi waza, among other not "main-stream Aikikai" things.
I think it is kind of self-restricting to say: oh, this is not Aikido, it's a Judo technique, or, no, that's sweeping uke's feet, which is not in Aikido books and hence no Aikido either, or how about the use of Atemi...
I like to follow Saotome Sensei's approach, which is to instantaneously and as harmoniously as possible connect to uke's center, control the martial situation, and apply techniques as they present themselves. If the situation calls for Atemi, so be it. If Uke presents his front leg for a sweep, take it. Why should I bother doing say Shiho-Nage instead if I can have it easier? And if I get surprised and pushed (over), why not use sutemi waza?
Anyway, that's how I think of it...
Regards,
Olaf Schubert
Shoshin Aikido Dojo Rodgau

[Kami]

Originally posted by Olaf
Dear all,
I just came back from Saotome Sensei's France seminar, and, just like at other seminars before, we did practice both ashi waza and sutemi waza, among other not "main-stream Aikikai" things.
I think it is kind of self-restricting to say: oh, this is not Aikido, it's a Judo technique, or, no, that's sweeping uke's feet, which is not in Aikido books and hence no Aikido either, or how about the use of Atemi...
I like to follow Saotome Sensei's approach, which is to instantaneously and as harmoniously as possible connect to uke's center, control the martial situation, and apply techniques as they present themselves. If the situation calls for Atemi, so be it. If Uke presents his front leg for a sweep, take it. Anyway, that's how I think of it...
Regards,
Olaf Schubert
Shoshin Aikido Dojo Rodgau

KAMI : In other words, EVERYTHING is Aikido...
:)
I agree with that.
Best

[wildaikido]

This is why we practice them, because everything is Aikido. Also I refer to these techniques as 'judo' because that how most people would associate them, I mean to me they're Aikido, but to others they're not. So Olaf what are your opinions on them as effective waza?

[j0nharris]

Having studied judo for a number of years before Aikido, I do use them sometimes... but usually at the end of randori when I'm getting tired :D

I definitely agree that they leave nage vulnerable in multiple attacks, so awareness is that much more important, as is the ability to do technique from hanmi han tachi.

-jon

[PeterR]

As I mentioned before I have done, and seen done, do or die techniques in randori.

However, I really don't think there are any sutemi waza in Tomiki's Aikido and by this I mean the kata sets. The reason for this may be the lack of control they represent or that Tomiki wanted to distinguish between Judo and Aikido. I'm just guessing here.

[Dominic Toupin]

I know this is a very old thread but...

Sutemi technique are describe like inefficient technique. But the best way to approach those technique is to see them as a challenge for Tori and Uke. Those technique are very hard to master and it's a good way to improve timing, balance for Tori and how to break falls for Uke.

We practice sutemi technique in every training session and I can tell you that it helps developing your aikido, your mental and physical development

[darin]

Most Yoseikan sutemi are extentions of an aikido technique much like henkawaza. For example if you are attempting tenbin nage you can change it to sotowakitori sutemi. Just about any basic aikido technique has a sutemi variation in Yoseikan. I have a video of Yoseikan sutemi randori taken in the hombu. Looks effective!!!

[Amir Krause]

We use sutemi techniques and study them. I would never describe them as inefficient, the throw s are very strong and directed with a lot of intensity. If I were to look for a weakness in those techniques it is the narrow safety margin while learning, since gravity operates on both Tor & Uke and can't be slowed down.

My teacher teaches the proper opportunities for sutemi techniques are normally when Tori is already on his way down, and wishes to take Uke with him. Kind of "don't go down alone" mentality, obviously, this mentality may also be constructive in multiple attackers situation, though rarely.

Obviously, we practice sutemi techniques in randori as well, and they are sometimes used as Kaishi waza (counter), between the more veteran students.


Amir

[Ron Tisdale]

So what I suppose I really want to know now is did Osensei practice any, or teach any to other students i.e. Saito or his son?

My understanding is that many of the Yoseikan sutemi come from a specific jujutsu ryu practiced by its founder...so I doubt they were taught as part of the original Daito ryu or even the later aikido curriculumn per se...

As well as wanting to know if any of the judo background schools still practice them i.e. Tomiki and Yoshinkan, or if they ever did?

I have been shown some in various schools including Yoshinkan, but I really don't know how prominent or official a place they have. Perhaps they are more prominent in what teachers like Amos Parker demonstrate...he for instance, tends to show an older style with a wider variety of ground techniques and pinning techniques. Steven????

Ron

[phil farmer]

Ron is partially correct, many of Yoseikan's sutemi waza come from Gyoku Shin Ryu (Spelling in japanese is not my strength) Jiujutsu. Another place to find some of these sutemi is old judo films of Mifune Sensei. Minoru Mochizuki was uchi deshi to Mifune and our reversals and some of the sutemi come from that arena. This discussion is interesting to me because we practice sutemi every workout. Some are done as combinations, others to be a counter, and still others because uke has moved his or her body into the position needed. However, some of these sutemi can be done with multiple attackers because they involve roll outs for tori as part of the throw. In Yoseikan competition sutemi are regularly used with great effectiveness and are often set up with punch and kick combinations. However, and this is important, these techniques are hallmarks for Yoseikan, so we work them a lot, including randori that are sutemi only, from any attack. The inexperienced martial artist needs to be careful, for your own sake and your uke's. They demand control and experience to be done safely. Having said that, in certain self-defense situations, I would not hesitate to use them. They require no energy whatsoever to do and put a tremendous energy into your opponent.

Phil Farmer
Yoseikan Budo

[Ron Tisdale]

Also known as 'bowling with uke'... :)

RT

[phil farmer]

I like that Ron. And it's true, throw them into the next attacker, but like that phrase "bowling with uke", sounds like an aiki game we could start a cult around. Sure would make innocent bystanders learn some fast ukemi wouldn't it.

Phil Farmer

[xuzen]

To sutemi or not to sutemi....

Only now I can contribute; since earlier on I don't have the experience to input.

Yesterday in class I had a san nin dori jiyu waza session. I remembered telling myself over and over again I want to include at least a sutemi (ashi nage) tech in the jiyu waza because in my opinion, it looks good. It is a very pretty technique. Very dramatic.

However when the jiyu waza started, I failed to even execute one sutemi technique despite my conscious mind telling me to include at least one. There just isn't enough time to do a sutemi tech when you have three people charging at you. One to one jiyu waza is OK, I can sutemi all I want. But with three uke(s) it was impossible.

I only remember using a few techniques during the whole jiyu waza session.... Irimi tsuki/shomenate, iriminage/aigamae ate, ushiro ate, kokyunage. And they are mainly from the atemi waza family. All these waza(s) where not planned and they just happened as my subconscious mind reacted to the situation. And I believe when you are at most stressed and at most tired is when your body is most honest to you.

Therefore I believe in all honesty atemi waza is indispensable when facing multiple opponents as my subconscious mind has told me.

What does other practitioner think about the above point?

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts.

Boon.

[batemanb]

I certainly believe that sutemi techniques are aikido, and like all techniques, they are worthwhile to practice. They are a good lesson in timing, ma ai and really good for learning to relax your body. I often teach them in class, and I use them in randori too, but, like all techniques, it depends on the my interaction with my uke's as to which sutemi waza I do. In randori for example, regardless of the number of uke's, I try not to do sutemi going backwards, I will always aim for waza where I can bowl uke over with my body, which in turn bowls other uke's over with uke (I hope that's come out right). The placement of uke's when doing is important though as you don't want to be on the floor with an uke standing over you, unless your really really good at hanmi handachi waza of course :).

As for Boon's last statement about atemi being indespensible when facing multiple opponents, absolutely right, whether multiple or single.

rgds

Bryan

[Alex Megann]

I can think of at least one sutemi technique in Aikido. There is a photo of O-sensei doing this in one of the John Stevens books (I don't remember which one).

Tori is in seiza. Uke comes from behind, grabs both of tori's shoulders and pulls back. Tori rolls backwards (supple toes and ankles are a prerequisite), and with his hands draws uke's elbows down slighly. He then extends both legs and hooks his big toes around the back of uke's jaw. Straightening the legs will then break uke's balance forwards, and then rolling back to a sitting position will project uke with considerable speed.

I still remember the astonishment I felt when Kanetsuka Sensei first did this to me...

Alex

[batemanb]

and I use them in randori too, but, like all techniques, it depends on the my interaction with my uke's as to which sutemi waza I do. In randori for example, regardless of the number of uke's, I try not to do sutemi going backwards, I will always aim for waza where I can bowl uke over with my body, which in turn bowls other uke's over with uke (I hope that's come out right).


I've just been having a chat with Boon and Michael Stuempel over in the chatroom. The general consensus is that the variation of sutemi that I would use going forward here is not considered sutemi waza. I concede that it is a kokyunage :).

I definately wouldn't want to go flat on my back for even an instance in a randori or on the street, regardless of the number of attackers. But, there may be a time when it is necessary depending on uke' s movement. Don't rule it out as an option ;).

rgds

Bryan

[xuzen]

I've just been having a chat with Boon and Michael Stuempel over in the chatroom. The general consensus is that the variation of sutemi that I would use going forward here is not considered sutemi waza. I concede that it is a kokyunage :).

I definately wouldn't want to go flat on my back for even an instance in a randori or on the street, regardless of the number of attackers. But, there may be a time when it is necessary depending on uke' s movement. Don't rule it out as an option ;).

rgds

Bryan

Amen, I rest my case.

Boon.

[batemanb]

Amen, I rest my case.

Boon.

Hey Boon,

I know very little about Aikido, I'm easily led. There was a caveat in there too though :D


rgds

Bryan

[xuzen]

This week I had a go with a young nidan at my dojo. We went for some fun randori ala judo style i.e, close in, grab, struggle struggle, throw type of randori.

I was in the zone that night and repeatedly throw the nidan like a rag doll. The feeling was great, I did not struggle at all. All I remember was I just went with his flow. He pulled, I followed forward and did things like Tani Otoshi (actually a variation of tenchi-nage), Tai otoshi (kokyu nage in aikido terms).

But the most memorable are when he pushed; I did all the sutemi techniques imaginable; Yoko Ya-ware, Yoko Gake, Yoko Otoshi, Uki Waza etc...It was a great feeling when you are throwing someone like a rag doll and not breaking a sweat doing it. Now I understand the role of kuzushi.

I humbly bow before the beautiful techniques of the Jujutsu sutemi syllabus.

Boon.

[RebeccaM]

Sutemi waza has its place, and it is taught at the dojo I train at when I'm home in Seattle. I once reversed a sankkyo with a sutemi waza. Basically I just twisted around, grabbed my partner's lapel with my free hand and dropped. He landed several feet away.

The trick is the timing. If you're too late you're going to get squished. If you're too early it's not going to happen. It's not necessarily a good idea in randori, but I have gotten away with it a couple times. I'm not sure how and I don't recommend it. It's kinda like riding a bike on an icy road without a helmet. You might get away with it, but it's still not a good idea (even if it might seem that way at the time...). And if you try sutemi waza on someone who knows Brazilian jujitsu you're hosed. Unless, of course, you also know Brazilian jujitsu. :P

Oh yeah, and as far as receiving sutemi waza goes, it's a lot less scary if you don't think about it.

[MaryKaye]

When visiting a foreign dojo I playfully held on to a senior partner as I was falling over backwards, caught her off balance and got a beautiful forward roll over my body. She in turn held on, used the momentum of her roll to turn me over on the mat and ended up applying a kneeling pin. It still stands out in my mind as the most beautiful kaeshi waza I have ever been involved in, and we were both laughing our heads off at the end.

My own dojo is, I think, a bit too safety-conscious to be comfortable with the sutemi waza, except among people much more senior than me. Alas. So much to learn, so little time....

Mary Kaye

[Jorx]

Well I'm giving here a different perspective. I frequently visit judo class... in the end when sparring and tired I often fake sutemiwaza throws to get myself on my back so I can exetecute a open guard sweep or some submission from my back:) But I'm mainly a BJJ guy right now and in an MMA or SD context I wouldn't DO them, however feel that practicing them is useful and fun:)