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Jim Sorrentino
11-27-2006, 11:26 AM
Hi Giancarlo,Jim, I've taken ukemi for nearly a half-dozen Aikikai 8-dans and I generally agree with his statement. My opinion is that all but one of these teachers expect and require their ukes to "give" them the technique. In other words, if I were to realisitically attack them rather than just letting them take control of my center, they could not throw me. I don't know Dan, but based on his posts, I'd guess that if they can't throw me, they probably can't throw him either.Giancarlo DiPierroWith all due respect, aren't you the guy who claims that the late Kanai-sensei was his teacher, even though you were only at his dojo for a couple of years --- and for some reason, he never promoted you? Do you include Kanai-sensei among those Aikikai 8th dan who couldn't, or can't, throw you? How about Saotome-sensei? Didn't you come down to Aikido Shobukan Dojo in DC a few years ago for Winter Camp? If you're who I'm thinking of, your assertions are worse than useless --- I'm no eighth dan, and as I recall, I threw you around like a rag doll.

Have a nice life, you poser.

Jim

G DiPierro
11-27-2006, 01:17 PM
Do you include Kanai-sensei among those Aikikai 8th dan who couldn't, or can't, throw you?
Jim,

I never took ukemi for Kanai-sensei, so he is not included in this list.
How about Saotome-sensei?
Yes, I have taken ukemi for him. Once. He did not have a good experience, and declined to try it again.
Didn't you come down to Aikido Shobukan Dojo in DC a few years ago for Winter Camp?
Yes.
If you're who I'm thinking of, your assertions are worse than useless --- I'm no eighth dan, and as I recall, I threw you around like a rag doll.
Sure you did.
Have a nice life, you poser.
I will.

Jim Sorrentino
11-27-2006, 01:47 PM
Giancarlo,I never took ukemi for Kanai-sensei, so he is not included in this list.
And yet, on your dojo's website, you state that "Giancarlo DiPierro began studying aikido in 1996 in Cambridge, MA, where he was a student of Mitsunari Kanai, one of a small group of direct disciples of the founder of aikido who was sent to teach aikido in the West." (see http://home.earthlink.net/~tjma/id7.html) How did you manage to study with him without taking any ukemi from him? And what rank did he give you? I missed that in your reply.
Yes, I have taken ukemi for [Saotome-sensei]. Once. He did not have a good experience, and declined to try it again.Well, interacting with liars and posers is repellent, on the mat as well as off it.

By the way, who is your Muso Shinden-Ryu teacher? Are you claiming any rank in that art? Is your MSR teacher aware of your claims concerning your aikido experiences?

Jim

Jim Sorrentino
11-28-2006, 09:24 AM
Giancarlo,But since you are again belaboring this issue of rank and affiliation as you did with Dan, let me say now for the record, since for some reason it is not obvious despite the fact that I make no statements suggesting any rank or formal affiliation whatsoever on my website, that I make no claim of rank from Kanai-sensei nor do I make any claim of formal affiliation to him or to any organization to which he belonged. So that there is absolutely no confusion on this point, let me also say here that I do not currently teach or practice his characteristic of aikido at my dojo.So why even mention his name? The man is dead and can't defend his reputation. Have you no shame?
As for not taking ukemi for him, I can assure you that the irony of the fact that I have physically felt the technique of every other direct student of the founder that I have trained with but never that of Kanai-sensei is not lost on me.There is nothing ironic about it. You never even tested for shodan.
If you want to know when and where the incident with Saotome happened, ask around the ASU. People saw it. Although I'm sure they remember it much differently than I did since, for ASU people (like Dennis Hooker), it couldn't possibly be true that anyone actually stopped Saotome's technique. Obviously I must be lying or the reason he couldn't throw me was that he didn't want to hurt me. Sure.You're the one who made the claim --- the burden is on you to back it up with details, including where and when.
Let's face it, the real issue here is that if you believe that nobody can stop Saotome's (or anyone else's) technique then you obviously don't train with any kind of real resistance.No, the real issue is that, based on your short study of aikido, as well as my interactions with you on the mat at DC, I don't believe that you could stop Saotome-sensei's technique. For that matter, I don't believe you could stop my technique, either.
But, Jim, I suppose it's better to keep bringing the discussion back to matters that have no bearing whatsoever on that issue, like who my iaido teacher is, since that way maybe nobody will realize that all of these things that Dan and other people are saying are true.Well, you insulted my teacher's reputation with your spurious claim. One way to deal with such matters is to bring the offense to the attention of the offender's teacher, just as I would contact the parents of a little boy who called me (or one of my family) some foul name. You don't have an aikido teacher, so your iaido teacher, if you have one, will have to do.

Jim

Dennis Hooker
11-29-2006, 06:28 AM
Hi Dennis,
Almost all of us who teach have had the experience of having someone with an attitude try and show us up. I am happy to have someone grab me as hard as they can and if the exercise is a static technique they are welcome to test me out. But it should be done with the right attitude; the desire to learn. Someone wants to make it a contest, I am not interested. I'll ignore them after that. You can usually tell when people are messing with you rather than sincerely wishing to feel the technique.


Hello George. After receiving information from people that know this poser, his background and association with the USAF and attempted association with their Shihan I will not dignify his comments by showing them to Saotome Sensei. This is the last post I will make on the subject. He is of course welcome on my mat anytime, where ever I am teaching. I am not Saotome Sensei so it should be easy to stop my technique and show me I am wrong.

G DiPierro
11-29-2006, 07:03 AM
After receiving information from people that know this poser, his background and association with the USAF and attempted association with their Shihan I will not dignify his comments by showing them to Saotome Sensei.
Since you have now made a public statement about my relationship with the USAF, an organization of which you are not a member, I hope that you will substantiate your claims by stating who in the USAF gave you this information, what exactly you mean by "attempted association," and, of course, which shihan you are referring to. I will be happy to respond to whatever allegations you or anyone else wishes to make in this regard with the actual details of my "attempted association" with the USAF.
This is the last post I will make on the subject. He is of course welcome on my mat anytime, where ever I am teaching. I am not Saotome Sensei so it should be easy to stop my technique and show me I am wrong.
I not would care to take a class with anyone who would stoop to the level of calling me a "poser." To me, that says enough about your character to know that I have no interest in seeking out training with you, and this is to say nothing of the quality of your technique. If you wish to find out whether I can stop your technique, you are welcome to come to any class I am teaching or any seminar I am attending with another teacher. For me there is no question whatsoever.

Regards,
Giancarlo DiPierro

Jim Sorrentino
11-29-2006, 09:15 AM
Giancarlo,Since you have now made a public statement about my relationship with the USAF, an organization of which you are not a member, I hope that you will substantiate your claims by stating who in the USAF gave you this information, what exactly you mean by "attempted association," and, of course, which shihan you are referring to. I will be happy to respond to whatever allegations you or anyone else wishes to make in this regard with the actual details of my "attempted association" with the USAF.On the Lancaster Aikido website, your bio states that "Giancarlo DiPierro began studying aikido in 1996 in Cambridge, MA, where he was a student of Mitsunari Kanai, one of a small group of direct disciples of the founder of aikido who was sent to teach aikido in the West. He also began studying iaido with Kanai-sensei in 1998." (See http://home.earthlink.net/~tjma/id7.html.)

Were you a student at the New England Aikikai, and if so, for how long?

We already know that you did not test for shodan. Why not? Did you manage to test for any kyu rank?

Since you claim Kanai-sensei as your teacher, and Kanai-sensei was a founding member of the USAF, why is your dojo not affiliated with the USAF?

Did you attempt to open other dojo in Massachusetts and Connecticut before you moved to Ohio? What was the result of those efforts?

Who is your iaido teacher?
If you wish to find out whether I can stop your technique, you are welcome to come to any class I am teaching or any seminar I am attending with another teacher. For me there is no question whatsoever.Ikeda-sensei will be at Oberlin College in early May 2007. You should have no problem stopping his technique, since he is only a seventh dan. ;)

If any of Kanai-sensei's long-term students are reading, please feel free to add your observations.

Like Hooker-sensei, I'm done with this discussion.

Jim

Thomas Campbell
11-29-2006, 09:48 AM
That's good, because as a federal taxpayer I was getting annoyed at your frequent posting on government time.

Alfonso
11-29-2006, 10:00 AM
what's the polite way to say troll?

bratzo_barrena
11-29-2006, 10:28 AM
I'd like to comment about ressisting a technique.
As many have said here, resisting a technique that you know is coming, is very easy if you are as phisically strong or stronger than the person performing the technique. If you can overpower him/her making a specific pre-stablished technique is imposible. You can stop Any shihan, master, great super master, o'sensei and god. There's nothing special about it.
And that's true not only to aikido but any martial art or combative sport.
For example, a boxer tells you in advance he's gonna throw a cross to your jaw, so you expect the punch and you block it. Well there's nothing spectacular abouit it, you knew it was coming. This doesn't make you any better or boxing not useful. Or a BJJ that tells you he's gonna try an armbar and you just overpower the technique before it successfully performed. Any one strong enough can do that. That doesn mean BJJ is useless.
Obviously when two people agree to a specific technique is to train, learn proper mechanics, not to challange or compete, just train proper movement. So from this point of view it's silly and even unproductive to stop a technique by any means, using muscle strengh or changing the agreed conditions of the practice.
Now, don't misunderstan me, this doesn't mean that uke should give a weak attack or be passive and be compliant or even worst, just throw him/herself to the mat or into the lock. That's not good for tori's improvement either, because if uke just goes to the ground byhim/herself or just doesn't generate any force with which to work, tori wont be able to train proper mechanics either.
So Uke should give a strong, committed, attack and limit the attack to what is need for the technique to happen. If tori uses good mechanis technique is gonna happen, if tori doesn't have good mechanics then uke must keep his/her balanced and strong posture, but without changing the agreed condition of the practice.

If uke just resist an agreed technique and agreed conditions by rearenging his position, or re-structuring his body in such a way that he/she can overpower a technique, tori should change the technique, applly a strong atemi or use his/her own non-agreed way to weaken uke's structure. If uke "cheats", Tori should "cheat" too :)

Now if the aikidoka is not requiered to do an specific technique, so you're working against someone who wants to defeat you (just in a friendly challange, or competition, or a fight, or any reason) then the aikidoka should not "try to do a technique", aikidoka should let the most appropiate technique "to happen" under the conditions present at that specific moment.
For example (a simplistic one though), if someone grabs you with the right hand from the collar and pulls, stretching his arm, for aikidoka to try to do nikkyo would be unuppropriate, the coditions are set better for Rokkyo, Hijikime(?) (I'm not good with names) I mean an arm bar on the extended elbow.
Now from the same initial attack, if this attacker tried also to puch you in the face with the left hand, he would need to bend his right elbow the get closer to the target, in this moment, the attacker himself created the condition for nikkyo to happen.
I think is importat to realice that an Aikidoka doesn't try to do a technique, but aikido techniques "happen by themselves" due to specific condition created by the attacker. The aikidoist is just "a tool" or "an instrument" for the techniques to happen.
Nothing mystical, ethereal, supernatural, or hidden magical forces or anything like that though. Only correct body mechanis and physics.

BC
11-29-2006, 01:35 PM
I know of a number of people in my dojo who practiced with Mr. DiPierro when he tried to stop their technique. None of them were hachidan, and he was clearly NOT successful in stopping their technique. I witnessed it. In fact, I had the distinct pleasure of watching one sandan repeatedly stop Mr. DiPierro's technique and reverse him. I will say that his response was less than stoic. :rolleyes:

G DiPierro
11-29-2006, 02:19 PM
I know of a number of people in my dojo who practiced with Mr. DiPierro when he tried to stop their technique. None of them were hachidan, and he was clearly NOT successful in stopping their technique. I witnessed it.
Mr. Cronin, you most certainly did not witness me try to "stop" anyone's technique while I was in your dojo. For the most part, what I did there was what I would call cooperative practice. However, it's quite common that people in aikido mistake what I would consider more or less cooperative practice for full-resistance training since they have no understanding of the concept of real resistance. The skill that I used with Saotome was something that I had only just begun exploring the last time I visited your dojo, which was about 3 years ago, and I don't think I could have used it well enough to stop him with it then.
In fact, I had the distinct pleasure of watching one sandan repeatedly stop Mr. DiPierro's technique and reverse him. I will say that his response was less than stoic. :rolleyes:
If you are talking about the incident I think you are, I recall that the person in question was more interested in fighting than training, particularly since my practice with another partner had been interrupted by one of the senior students at your dojo and this other person been "selected" to take his place, clearly with an agenda in mind. He was quite a bit larger and stronger than me, and had enough martial arts training that I did not feel that I could "take" him in a fight at that time, so I declined to continue to practice with him. That's not something I do very often, so I'll give credit where it's due, but again keep in mind that this was several years ago and I was not nearly as skilled then as I am today. The type of resistance training that I do now is something that I have really only been able to develop since I started teaching in my own dojo three years ago.

Regards,
Giancarlo DiPierro

BC
11-30-2006, 07:16 AM
Your response is very revealing.

You are right, that was three years ago. That means the person I was referring to was a nidan then. And he is at least a foot shorter and definitely lighter than you. He never "fights" on the mat. The only agenda, if there was any, was to prevent you from further offending or injuring any of the junior practitioners on the mat at the time. However, that particular individual does enjoy a vigorous practice, and his skill is such that if you choose to resist, you will usually pay a price.

I am very skeptical about your claim that in the span of only three years you developed enough skill to better a shihan.

G DiPierro
11-30-2006, 10:52 AM
You are right, that was three years ago. That means the person I was referring to was a nidan then. And he is at least a foot shorter and definitely lighter than you.I don't recall anyone shorter and lighter than me ever reversing my technique at your dojo. I think you will have to provide a name and face if you want to continue advancing this claim.
The only agenda, if there was any, was to prevent you from further offending or injuring any of the junior practitioners on the mat at the time.
I never injured anyone at your dojo, however at least one of your students did cause injury to me through his sloppy technique, with which I was trying to cooperate by letting him throw me anyway. I usually don't do that anymore. I suspect the people who were really offended were your senior students, who believe that their rank entitles them to throw someone even though their technique doesn't work.
I am very skeptical about your claim that in the span of only three years you developed enough skill to better a shihan.
The only people I would say that I bettered are Saotome's students who admit that they cannot do to him what I did despite being larger, stronger, and more experienced than me.

Ron Tisdale
11-30-2006, 11:05 AM
Man, where do I buy a pair of brass one's like that?? :)

Best,
Ron (I'd stay off the seminar circuit for a while if I was you...you are making sooo many friends here!)

Mark Freeman
11-30-2006, 11:26 AM
Man, where do I buy a pair of brass one's like that?? :)


In Lancaster, OH. ....there is a little shop at the back of the mall... :D

rachmass
11-30-2006, 04:05 PM
Giancarlo, I got injured by you at a seminar. Although I was part to blame (because I was not being aware enough to react appropriately), the injury occurred because of a sudden burst of speed with a bunch of muscle, right at a vunerable spot for uke. It was in Cincinnati, and I pulled a groin muscle. I can't remember the technique unfortunately but do remember going along with you in a compliant manner only to be subject to this sudden burst of force driven with muscle and it seemed anger. Perhaps you were not angry, but that was the impression I had.

I think the Shihan in the USAF are wonderful and I can't imagine you are talking about them.

The true mark of skill in my opinion, is to have one of these folks throw you and place you in exactly the right spot so as not to get hurt, but also not allow you one iota of leeway to get away from the technique. This has been my experience when I have been lucky enough to have take ukemi.

Neil Mick
11-30-2006, 06:33 PM
Man, where do I buy a pair of brass one's like that?? :)

Doesn't matter where he got 'em...if he continues to train with an attitutude of "waal, I can resist ANY technique from all you sissy shihan, on down: so's I'm better than all a' youse!" ...he won't be wearing 'em, for very much longer, I reckon (at least, not inside his pants...ahem). :eek: :uch: :eek:

aikidoc
11-30-2006, 07:07 PM
This guy showed up on a thread some time back trying to ascertain where he received his instructors qualifications. The Lancaster name is what triggered my memory. His behavior at seminars was mentioned in the thread.

G DiPierro
11-30-2006, 07:26 PM
Rachel,

I do recall the incident in question and I'm sorry that you were injured. It was not intentional. At Kanai-sensei's dojo I became accustomed to a powerful style of aikido and high level of intensity of practice, and at the time that this happened several years ago, I was still primarily doing that style of aikido. Mr. Cronin, however, was implying that I had injured someone at his dojo in Chicago, and further that I had done this to a junior practitioner, neither of which are true in your case.

I would agree with you about the true mark of skill being the ability to control an uke in a such way that he cannot escape the technique yet can safely fall regardless of ukemi ability. However, I do not believe that the standard aikido training methodology of repetitive practice of forms with the use of extremely compliant ukemi is a very good way of developing this skill.

Regards,
Giancarlo DiPierro

aikidoc
11-30-2006, 08:39 PM
I would agree with you about the true mark of skill being the ability to control an uke in a such way that he cannot escape the technique yet can safely fall regardless of ukemi ability. However, I do not believe that the standard aikido training methodology of repetitive practice of forms with the use of extremely compliant ukemi is a very good way of developing this skill.


OK. So then lets take out all the training rules: you can attack on of the shihans anyway you want with full force and they are not going to show you how they are going to respond. The rules are they can do whatever they want-hell, let's just turn it into a street brawl situation since apparently there is no interest in learning the form necessary to make the technique effective whether the uke is compliant or not. No rules-atemi is ok, lack of control is ok. That's reality.

In a seminar or a dojo situation, people are learning skills. If someone shows me a technique and I then go and practice, I know exactly what the person is going to do. It's pretty easy to stop the response-however, that opens it up for the nage to counter my lack of willingness to let them train with whatever response they deem appropriate since I chose to throw out the training rules.

It is human nature for the uke to respond to what they think is going to happen. That makes perfect control difficult. However, to me, the mark of skill is to be able to respond to the situation safely and effectively, no matter how the uke responds. When someone is instructing, however, they are trying to show and develop a set of skills that have been acquired over years of practice. Someone who knows how to protect themselves by taking safe ukemi, or if you prefer compliant ukemi, will allow then to demonstrate or show the technique and it's intricacies without having to respond to someone who might get hurt by not realizing the implications of their response. Most instructors do not what to hurt someone, although I'm sure if someone is being a jerk it can be tempting.

Gernot Hassenpflug
11-30-2006, 08:42 PM
Guys, what's with all the tension? I mean really, the ability to do or not do a particular technique in a dojo setting should not be of great interest. What should be of interest is whether you can gather contacts enough to enable you to meet better people that will condescend to teach you (or open your eyes to) what you dont know (or cannot even imagine) yet. When we loko back in 20 years time these kinds of fights will be a huge embarassment. It's all on record...

Ron Tisdale
12-01-2006, 07:07 AM
I think it's embarrasing now....I'm not even thinking about 20 years yet...

B,
R

BC
12-01-2006, 07:41 AM
I don't recall anyone shorter and lighter than me ever reversing my technique at your dojo. I think you will have to provide a name and face if you want to continue advancing this claim.

I never injured anyone at your dojo, however at least one of your students did cause injury to me through his sloppy technique, with which I was trying to cooperate by letting him throw me anyway. I usually don't do that anymore. I suspect the people who were really offended were your senior students, who believe that their rank entitles them to throw someone even though their technique doesn't work.

The only people I would say that I bettered are Saotome's students who admit that they cannot do to him what I did despite being larger, stronger, and more experienced than me.


In terms of providing a name and a face, I will not be providing that person's identity on a public forum for his own privacy. However, I still remember exactly where on the mat the two of you were together.

I do recall one of our junior members experiencing some unnecessary discomfort because you were not practicing the technique as it was demonstrated, and throwing that person in an unsafe manner. In our dojo, we have a zero tolerance-policy for practitioners that do not observe respect and courtesy to other practitioners on the mat, as well as practicing in a safe manner with their partners. You did not observe those rules on more than one occasion, and THAT was why you offended a number of our members.

G DiPierro
12-01-2006, 11:49 AM
In terms of providing a name and a face, I will not be providing that person's identity on a public forum for his own privacy. However, I still remember exactly where on the mat the two of you were together.
You are welcome to contact me privately with this person's identity and any other details you can remember. Otherwise, I will have to deny that this happened as you describe it.
I do recall one of our junior members experiencing some unnecessary discomfort because you were not practicing the technique as it was demonstrated, and throwing that person in an unsafe manner. In our dojo, we have a zero tolerance-policy for practitioners that do not observe respect and courtesy to other practitioners on the mat, as well as practicing in a safe manner with their partners. You did not observe those rules on more than one occasion, and THAT was why you offended a number of our members.
I certainly experienced °»unnecessary discomfort,°… was not treated with respect and courtesy, and was thrown or attempted to be thrown in an unsafe manner at your dojo many times. Despite this, I did not avoid training at your dojo, as I consider learning how to deal with such things to be an important part of martial arts practice. I did not have any problem with how your dojo decided to handle the issue, and I considered the matter closed at that time. You are bringing it up again now, several years later, in a public forum, and this is not the first time that you have done so. What do you need in order to feel closure on this and move on?

BC
12-01-2006, 02:15 PM
There is nothing I need to close...

Jacques Crist
12-01-2006, 05:40 PM
Wow. I've been visiting Aikiweb for a number of years now and to paraphrase the talk radio cliche: Long time lurker, first time poster. This is truly the first time I've actually felt I had anything of value to contribute to the conversation but...I've trained with you Giancarlo - twice, and I witnessed the incident that you seem so proud of. Yes - you stopped the technique Sensei was demonstrating, but you were stiff, rigid, off balance, and truly lucky Sensei didn't clock you. It occurs to me that there are some very technically sound martial artists that have taken issue with your evaluation of your Aikido skill set. I am not one of them - a very technically sound martial artist, that is - But I do remember training with you at an ASU Rokyudan's seminar in Louisville 3 or 4 years ago. Sensei had shown a particular approach to kotegaishu ura and we began training. You then proceeded to do the omote version and took offense when it was my turn and I performed the technique Sensei had demonstrated. A misunderstanding, perhaps - but it did become clear as Sensei walked around working with various pairs which technique was being worked. At no point did I, a gokyu or yonkyu at the time, feel that you could stop me from performing the throw although it took a lot of muscle to do it - I outweigh you by about 10 or 15 lbs. I walked away from our encounter deeply irritated, but also willing to chalk it up as an experience in self discipline if nothing else. I trained with you at Saotome Sensei's seminar as well, and frankly, it was not unpleasant - probably because I had more experience and better ukemi.
I spend about a half hour a day reading the threads on this and other Aiki fora. Some threads I read because I have an interest in the subject - esp. if a test is coming up. Some I read with the same sick fascination other people feel when they see a car wreck. It can be interesting to watch as people display their...quirks, on the web for all to see. The thing I always keep in mind is that no one really knows who's at the other end of the cable. Forums are the ultimate leveler - a fifteen year old can argue the finer points of technique with a Rokyudan and be taken seriously. For a while. The difference here is that I actually have personal knowledge of our respective skill levels. I have second hand knowledge of Hooker and Sorrentino Senseis skill levels (via the respect accorded them by my sempai who most assuredly can hand me my #ss anytime he feels like it.) It occurs to me that it might be of some benefit to you to reflect your training experiences...the number of times people have refused to train with you, the number of times you've been places where only the higher ranks will train with you, the time (or lack thereof) very high ranking people have spent showing you technique at seminars. I could go on, but my point is simply that your opinion of your Aikido might not be that of some people that are qualified to judge.