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xuzen
11-28-2006, 09:55 PM
Please look at this video clip... It is the epitome of training with overly compliant uke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc)

Now look what happens when the same Super Duper sensei tries to spar with non compliant uke. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQeUkUO5ZPo)

This brings us back to the question, honestly how much aliveness are you bringing into your training.

Just for clarification, I do not think this Sensei is representative of any legit aikido lineage at all, I just think he is delusional and cultish.

Boon.

Alec Corper
11-29-2006, 03:02 AM
This has nothing to do with aikido, nothing to do with compliant ukes, or how we train in aikido (Yoshinkan or Aikikai). This is just pure BS and doesn't even rate discussion. What's your point?

stelios
11-29-2006, 05:55 AM
Ki master. Yes, maybe, could be, ok.
I am off to the pub.

James Davis
11-29-2006, 11:01 AM
training with overly compliant uke

Now look what happens when the same Super Duper sensei tries to spar with non compliant uke.



One of my aikido students is my tae kwon do instructor. When we train in TKD, everybody usually ends up being okay. If we spar, he usually eats my lunch. :D

In my classes, when he is non-compliant (or playing, as I like to call it), I usually manage to throw him... eventually. He's getting really good really fast though; I'm starting to worry! :p

Co-operation makes all the difference.

Aristeia
11-29-2006, 11:06 AM
This has nothing to do with aikido, nothing to do with compliant ukes, or how we train in aikido (Yoshinkan or Aikikai). This is just pure BS and doesn't even rate discussion. What's your point?
It has everything to do with compliant uke - and therefore is relevent to Aikido. The question on my mind is what the hell was the kiai dude doing ever stepping on to the mat for that kind of challenge. The only think I can think is that he wasn't so much a charlatan as he was as deluded as his students.
In otherwords, because his students were overly compliant *he* had a completely screwed up idea of what he was cabaple of. I think that discussion is *very* relevent in the Aikido community.

Basia Halliop
11-29-2006, 11:12 AM
Very amusing video... mainly it's just funny like Charlie Chaplin (although he was a master) or good special effects stunts people (you want to do a movie about intergalactic warriers who fight with some kind of death-ray force phasers, hire these people!), kind of, but it's also kind of impressive from a training perspective, in the sense of behavioural conditioning.

It's amazing the detailed behaviour you can train someone to do automatically on cue, apparently to a pretty high degree of reliability, at least if the right situational cues are in place as well (ie, when they're in the right place, with the right group of people).

DonMagee
11-29-2006, 12:47 PM
To be over 50 years old and be able to defend yourself is one thing. To think you can take on a trained athlete is another. I feel sorry for the old man because he was obviously delusional. Had I been the younger man, I would of tried to submit him rather then pummel him. It's more humane.

The saddest part is, he probably told his students he let that guy do that to him because he didn't want to kill him with his ki bolt. Either that or he told them the rules prohibited using anything he would use in a real fight.

ChrisMoses
11-29-2006, 01:29 PM
I've seen the first video before, but never the second one. That was fantabulous. :D

Where's your kiai now?

xuzen
11-29-2006, 09:28 PM
This has nothing to do with aikido, nothing to do with compliant ukes, or how we train in aikido (Yoshinkan or Aikikai). This is just pure BS and doesn't even rate discussion. What's your point?

My point is this has to do with the outcome of training with overly compliant uke all the time. I am glad the Super Duper Sensei got a reality check... which IMO is a good thing... for his students.

Boon.

Nick Simpson
11-30-2006, 04:28 AM
The first clip was really funny, I lolled. Second one was sad...

Mike Grant
12-01-2006, 08:20 AM
www.youtube.com/v/tib2Urowsdc

Don't look at the second until you've watched the first....

www.youtube.com/v/bQeUkUO5ZPo

billybob
12-01-2006, 08:40 AM
Mike,

what's in them? can't look at work, and box at home is a snail.

dave

Mike Grant
12-01-2006, 09:04 AM
Don't want to spoil the clips for those who can look....let's just say a demonstration of the difference between a compliant uke and a non-compliant one!

MM
12-01-2006, 09:19 AM
Don't want to spoil the clips for those who can look....let's just say a demonstration of the difference between a compliant uke and a non-compliant one!

These vids are all over the place. Even here on AikiWeb in another thread. They made it to E-Budo. *sigh* It isn't even close to a fair representation of non compliant ukes. It's an extreme. As such, it shouldn't even be considered, IMO.

The first vid has a teacher throwing students in a no touch manner. The students just fall down.

The second vid has the same teacher in a match against a supposed karate practitioner. Karate student beats on old man.

That's it.

Mike Sigman
12-01-2006, 09:36 AM
These videos are a good thing. There are far too many people who have gotten away for years with living in a fantasy land that doesn't even remotely stand up in the real world.

I consider a teacher to be like a sieve. The sieve/filter captures those students who are susceptible to a certain approach.. others leave, for the most part (and they're encouraged to leave by the "believers"). After a while you get these isolated classes that will only interact with people who 'believe' as they do, ignoring reality.

I have no idea what that old guy thought he could do, but like many teachers, I think that after a while he began to believe his own press. And hey.... in most cases these guys keep on going with the same believers, even after an embarrassing incident like this. C'est la vie. ;)

Mike

xuzen
12-01-2006, 09:56 PM
These vids are all over the place. Even here on AikiWeb in another thread. They made it to E-Budo. *sigh* It isn't even close to a fair representation of non compliant ukes. It's an extreme. As such, it shouldn't even be considered, IMO.

The first vid has a teacher throwing students in a no touch manner. The students just fall down.

The second vid has the same teacher in a match against a supposed karate practitioner. Karate student beats on old man.

That's it.

No sir, it is a good reality check. I think this two videos should be stickied and serves as educational tool for prospective student to be aware of cultish behaviour.

Occasional sparring or randori or jiyu waza would be good for reality check.

Boon.

DH
12-02-2006, 06:22 AM
Anyone can feel the humanity of watching an old man get nailed.
How about the humanity for his students? Dupes in a charade perpetrated by the old man. Its similar to the Americian Karate guy who got outed on that television spot.

Its a huge pendulum swing to one side -yes. But if that were a swing to one side, and MMA were a swing to the other where does everyone else's practice fall?
Having your stuff work on overly extended, weak attacks- with the center pretty much already given. And an ukemi just waiting for an opening to fall into. Is different from being attacked with no center offered and a step out and counter punch waiting for you.
Having your stuff work on men who don't know you, and want a piece of you ....changes you. Confidence born from experience in -actual fighting- is not a suit you can put on to look good and then take off.
A friend of mine (Multiple disciplines, who spent a long time in Japan) once said about a certain Martial arts teachers son there:
"The best thing that could happen to that kid is to kidnap him and drop him off in the slums of singapore-and have him have to fight his way home-using what he thinks he knows."

Martial arts... are martial arts. Not everyone can make them alive.

Cheers
Dan

deepsoup
12-02-2006, 06:51 AM
Dupes in a charade perpetrated by the old man.

Harsh. I think its clear that the old man was (and probably still is) duped every bit as much as his students. If he was a deliberate fraud, why would he volunteer to get beaten up and humiliated in front of everybody?

You could turn it around and say that he was the dupe in a charade perpetrated by his students. It was their habit of taking all those silly, pointless ukemi that led him to think he could take on the young lad in the second clip.

I suspect the truth, as ever, lies somewhere in the middle. The teacher and the students conspired to delude themselves, and each other.

Sean
x

Gernot Hassenpflug
12-02-2006, 07:46 AM
I've heard about the vids, and won't watch them, but I can say this: if it's Asia, the perpetration is by the teacher, not the students - the society works that way, the people at the bottom have to obey, pure and simple. The whole society recognizes and perpetuates untruths in the interests of maintaining itself (omote and ura, honne and tatemae). This is not a black and white thing, not and issue of right and wrong. As a result, change comes from the top, not the bottom. Bye and large. The odd break-outs may be very successful, but are still despised for breaking out.

xuzen
12-03-2006, 12:21 AM
A friend of mine (Multiple disciplines, who spent a long time in Japan) once said about a certain Martial arts teachers son there:
"The best thing that could happen to that kid is to kidnap him and drop him off in the slums of singapore-and have him have to fight his way home-using what he thinks he knows."

Martial arts... are martial arts. Not everyone can make them alive.

Cheers
Dan

Dan,

There are slums in Singapore? :eek:

Boon.

DH
12-03-2006, 06:22 AM
Actually I couldn't remember the exact city.....it doesn't detract from his point.
Dan

Kevin Wilbanks
12-04-2006, 04:22 PM
I've heard about the vids, and won't watch them...

Why won't you watch them?

Robert Rumpf
12-05-2006, 12:05 PM
To me, this set of videos, as much as it appeals to my sense of Schaudenfraud, is a classic martial arts tragedy. Presumably, at some point in the lineage of this branch of kiajutsu there was an instructor who knew how to do what this guy claims that he knows how to do. Otherwise, at a time when people died for being frauds, this art wouldn't have survived. Maybe I'm just being naive.

Perhaps some of his students even may know something real, or there may be some grain of technique left within what this guy is teaching, the exercises they do, or they may learn something that relates to something that is relevant and applicable, martially or otherwise. Certainly, they take impressive falls.. I wish my ukes could do that.

However, because of this display, and because this person had made such a spectacle of himself in terms of challenging the world, and then failing, this person has allowed his skills to be evaluated in an all-or-nothing capacity, and has come up wonting. That means that the sum and entirety of his training and that of his students gets dismissed and sneered at, even though it may or may not have something useful to offer, however misused or misunderstood by the instructor and his students.

It is a shame, really.

The part of this that is relevant to my own training as an Aikidoka is to keep in mind how little I can actually do consistently and effectively and to not overrate what I have at my disposal.

Rob

rob_liberti
12-08-2006, 08:56 PM
The man in the second video clearly cheated. That teacher was un-stoppable in his kiai attacks until technology caught up to him. That cheater in the second video was wearing state of the art advanced Soft-Moldable Ear Plug, (rated NRR 34, blended from the Purest Beeswax, Cotton and Lanolin, which forms to and seals your ear canal).

I was just glad that they turned the recording volume way down on the videos, or else all of the viewers would have been thrown out of their chairs while watching.

Rob

darin
12-17-2006, 11:33 AM
Speaking of fighting.... You guys seen these videos? I think I saw this "Aikido" master on tv in Japan doing his magic on celebrities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jf3Gc2a0_8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoU90rk0XM0

Luc X Saroufim
12-20-2006, 02:17 PM
i started a thread called "brawling with a friend" on this site and got positively blasted by people who thought i was abusing the priviledge of learning Aikido. i hope these videos can strengthen my case a little bit.

Kevin Leavitt
12-21-2006, 07:44 AM
The videos IMO demonstrate a classic example of cognitive dissonance. It happens all the time in our society. I think Martial arts are particularily prone to it. In recent years we have come up with this new term of "Aliveness" to reduce the dissonance.

MMA and UFC in general, I believe have been the driving force in getting martial arts back to it's roots and better grounded in reality.

see wikipedia for more info on the concept of Cognitive Dissonance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

it is something we all need to be aware of when we train.

DonMagee
12-21-2006, 11:17 AM
Interesting link on wiki. I hadn't thought to use that to help people understand what I was talking about before. Thanks for the heads up.

Kevin Leavitt
12-21-2006, 03:11 PM
I learned about it a few years ago in grad school. Never knew the had a scientific name or concept associated with it. I read it in one of my leadership/decision making classes and said, "wow" so this is why this happens in Martial arts....explained alot to me!

L. Camejo
12-21-2006, 05:45 PM
I think Boon was spot on for creating this thread and what is seen on those vids is directly relevant to Aikido practice or any other method that does not have some form of objectively evaluating one's technical skill level.

Reminds me of the "Culture of Martial Mediocrity" thread I raised a while back. Sometimes I would like to feel sorry for these types of "Instructors" as seen in the video, especially seeing him get his butt handed to him. But then I see and hear the even worse stories about their students who get severely damaged or killed in trying to employ this sort of training when under real attack after it only works in a dojo full of people sharing the delusion of technical efficacy.

Imo there is no problem donig your Ki throw stuff and no touch throws/strikes if that gives you your jollies but don't call it a martial or self protection art if it can't even work against a non-compliant person in the dojo.

My point is this has to do with the outcome of training with overly compliant uke all the time. I am glad the Super Duper Sensei got a reality check... which IMO is a good thing... for his students.Careful Boon, you starting to sound like a Shodothug.:D

LC:ai::ki:

xuzen
12-21-2006, 10:12 PM
I think Boon was spot on for creating this thread and what is seen on those vids is directly relevant to Aikido practice or any other method that does not have some form of objectively evaluating one's technical skill level.

Reminds me of the "Culture of Martial Mediocrity" thread I raised a while back. Sometimes I would like to feel sorry for these types of "Instructors" as seen in the video, especially seeing him get his butt handed to him. But then I see and hear the even worse stories about their students who get severely damaged or killed in trying to employ this sort of training when under real attack after it only works in a dojo full of people sharing the delusion of technical efficacy.

Imo there is no problem donig your Ki throw stuff and no touch throws/strikes if that gives you your jollies but don't call it a martial or self protection art if it can't even work against a non-compliant person in the dojo.
Careful Boon, you starting to sound like a Shodothug.:D

LC:ai::ki:

Why thank you Sir Larry. Shodothug is fine and all... but currently I am vacationing in JUDO-LAND (TM) .. and I like to mingle more with the locals there, to absorb more of their culture and stuff like that. Heck, I may even apply for a Permanent Residency there.

So next time, I may even turn into a JUDO-GOON (TM)...lol

Boon.

Kevin Leavitt
12-22-2006, 11:39 AM
Hey Larry!

So how do you measure effectiveness in Aikido?. Especially when it comes to technical skill.

To me the art has always been about the whole mind, body, spirit thing. Not so much the technical skill.

When I start focusing on technical (physical) skill, then we get into the whole non-compliant/compliant uke thing, and then the dynamic changes all together.

How do you measure the successful development of the whole mind/body/spirit thing?

I think it is somewhat important to keep things honest and real....but not really sure how you go about doing it.

I hate the answer "you know it when you see it"...as we all know that can lead a huge gap for interpretation and aiki politeness that has all of us sitting around patting each other on the back and feeling good about ourselves.

L. Camejo
12-23-2006, 02:12 PM
So how do you measure effectiveness in Aikido?. Especially when it comes to technical skill.

To me the art has always been about the whole mind, body, spirit thing. Not so much the technical skill.
Hi Kevin,

I try to teach Aikido for the environment and society in which my students and I live everyday, which sadly has become a very violent one lately in many aspects, so most people walk in the door wanting to at least be capable of dealing with the average situation against a frustrated member of the general public who has decided to target them for violence. Many also want to be able to mentally and if the opportunity provides itself, physically be able to deal with violent crime committed on their person.

Having said that, I have a method of progression that is tied directly to the kata/randori practice paradigm where students train in basic techniques and then execute them against varying levels of resistance in kata and randori as they progress. They are constantly reminded that even though they may enter the struggle mindset with a partner who is resisting hard, to encourage resistance itself by using upper body muscle or succumb to it by collapsing is not Aikido, though it may be enough to defend oneself depending on the situation. One is urged to use the resistance as part of one's tactical approach so that the resistance is nullified as a negative force.

This challenges, even forces them to seriously develop both their physical technique/tactical approach as well as their mindest towards conflict/strategic approach to rise out of just being able to dump a guy on the ground or dislocate a joint, but to bring their mind/body waza to a level of execution where they are not "fighting" but able to deal effectively with resistance to the point where it truly becomes futile, using their partner's energy to manifest the best technique for the situation. This energy is everything presented by the attacker, mental, physical and otherwise. For those who want to keep fighting using muscle power, I demonstrate using technique or during freeplay how it works to worsen their situation and actually weaken their approach to conflict, giving someone who knows how to use their resistance a mighty edge.

So I agree with you, Aikido is about developing mind/body/spirit. My personal belief based on my understanding of Tomiki's approach as well as the approach of many Budo is that one has to evolve through different levels of training and understanding to get to the end place where Takemusu Aiki/Enlightenment can be manifested and one can even go so far as to protect the attacker from harm while controlling the conflict (sword that takes life to life giving sword procees iow). However since this is a process of development one must start from a basic place of practicing in a manner that mainfests the lowest, most primitive form of execution (i.e. having to physically deal with physical conflict and resistance) through to the place where conflict itself becomes so well understood that it can be evaded 99% of the time and if it does get physical the response is minimal. This of course takes time and serious dedication to one's development. For most students all they may develop is at the very least an ability to deal with most dangers out there in our society these days using mind and body as necessary to survive the encounter. For those dedicated there may be a possibility to find out something more about oneself and transcending conflict altogether or the need for physical technique. You have to crawl before you walk though imho. Physical technique is the first level, it is the crawling part. Without it the upper foundations are shaky at best imho and collapse rapidly when met with serious conflict.
When I start focusing on technical (physical) skill, then we get into the whole non-compliant/compliant uke thing, and then the dynamic changes all together.
I understand perfectly what you mean. However if the roles of interaction are properly defined and executed then it gets easier. Also the objective of different areas of training has to be defined. One must understand that during kata practice it is important to be compliant for reasons of safety, to allow for learning of the technique and also for the Uke to find the path towards how kaeshiwaza (counters) are applied in Aikido. Non-compliant work, as you have probably experienced in BJJ "rolling" keeps one honest about what one is capable of at the point in time. This is critical to one's development in MA. Without self-honesty we enter the dangerous path of assumption, self-aggrandisement and basically make ourselves easy to topple, having already "floated" ourselves psychologically (psychological kuzushi). This is why folks who assume that they are so great tend to fall so hard when shown otherwise by those of equal or greater technical skill. Humility in training is key. Resistance practice helps one remember exactly where one is in the scheme of things regarding one's abilities.
How do you measure the successful development of the whole mind/body/spirit thing?

I think it is somewhat important to keep things honest and real....but not really sure how you go about doing it.
I hope my answer above helped some. Regarding how one judges the evolution of the mind/body/spirit thing, I use the example set forth by Ueshiba M. as well as all the other Budo that went from killing methods to methods of self-development and enlightenment over time. Spiritual evolution does not happen by osmosis. We live in physical world and to deny this is detrimental to truly developing spiritually imho since one cannot divorce from part of oneself and hope to become united as one being and see things anew.

Imho Ueshiba M. is a perfect example. He started the practice of Budo when young to become strong, to become an effective fighter, to cause damage and pain to those who would hurt him and loved ones. Over time however as he became more skilled in the use of his mind/body as weapons (and became less vulnerable) he began to see that this need to be a great fighter (strong) was in fact not necessary and the fear that drove his desire to be strong gave way to a different impetus (now that he was confident and strong) to seek into a deeper meaning of his own existence and life. Being a pious man, religion and spirituality guided him from the 1st level of physical technical ability (which he had achieved) into a realm of mind and spirit where he had to deal with new challenges and answer questions relating to his deeper self, which of course would have to address his fears and commensurate desire to be martially strong. In dealing with these mental and spiritual challenges his physical technique started to change to match his new mindset as he evolved into a more compassionate, less fear-driven being as a result of his spiritual and mental quests for answers. The thing is however he would never have gotten to the level of self reflection if his mind was still preoccupied and worried about being safe and secure from attackers. Hence his technical prowess and its commensurate feeling of security is what provided the platform for the higher level development.

How often do we see a starving man giving away food to others? How often do we see charity from those fighting just to survive? Evolution over time is part of the way of things, it is only when we have created a strong enough buffer from having to fight to survive every day that we can have the time and the privilege to allow our minds to deal with more advanced thoughts on our own evolution. Otherwise survival comes first. Technical proficiency in some places improves one's chances of survival, without guaranteeing or improving the consistent odds of basic survival there is no time or energy for anything else. Japan has one of the safest societies in the world, maybe this is why they can afford to focus on things other than survival in a dangerous society. This is a good thing, but it does not hold true for everywhere on the planet, hence the need to start from the bottom and work our way up.
I hate the answer "you know it when you see it"...as we all know that can lead a huge gap for interpretation and aiki politeness that has all of us sitting around patting each other on the back and feeling good about ourselves.I agree totally. This Politically Correct, Aiki-politeness is a means of shielding ourselves from truth and is part of the problem imho. Aiki cannot exist if we are BS-ing ourselves all the time.

I hope this helps. Apologies for the length.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Kevin Leavitt
12-23-2006, 03:13 PM
Larry, thanks for taking the time to reply. It is difficult at best to try and convey these concepts and for me to imagine the dynamic you are creating to acheive these goals.

I am trying to figure out how you synthesize alot of this. Right now, given the students I train, we pretty much work straight up BJJ as our risk for altercation occurs at the clinch range for the most part.

Wednesday will prove interesting because I will be working on scenario training with full Kit. (that is Helmet, vest, weapons, and full gear) we will do this in a multiple person, small room envirionment. The goal will be to subdue your attacker and disengage.

Usually when we do this, more aikido range techniques get worked into things.

I have to work my students backward from close in (most likely) mid range (best place to be) in this environment.

Also, placing minimal force constraints helps as well.


I think it is all in how you approach your training with your mindset and objective.

To me, this is the key to aliveness. Keeping the proper perspective on what it is your are training and why.

It has nothing to do with so called "combat effective" which is typically translated to physically effective or overpowering.

Mindset and awareness is what makes your training alive.

L. Camejo
12-23-2006, 05:40 PM
Larry, thanks for taking the time to reply. It is difficult at best to try and convey these concepts and for me to imagine the dynamic you are creating to acheive these goals.

I am trying to figure out how you synthesize alot of this. Right now, given the students I train, we pretty much work straight up BJJ as our risk for altercation occurs at the clinch range for the most part.Hi Kevin,

If there is any particular area you'd like me to clarify better please let me know. I also hold Yudansha rank in Akayama Ryu Jujutsu, which forms part of the US Border Patrol defensive tactics system. I teach this separately from Aikido for those who want to fight from the clinch range, grapple etc. It provides a more free environment than that of pure Aikido training. The Aiki waza contained in this Jujutsu system is almost identical to the style of Aikido I do so they blend nicely when we do randori in Jujutsu class. We actually go from Aikido/striking medium range to clinch and then ground work and back depending on the skill levels of the students involved. My Jujutsu Instructors are LEOs, Federal DT Instructors and active or former military so a lot of what we do is similar to what may be found in the current US Army CQB manual (I have a copy of it around here somewhere).

If there is anything I can do to assist please let me know. I am actually opening a security consulting and training firm next year to focus on this sort of training for military as well as DT systems that will be applicable to other protective services and private security.
Wednesday will prove interesting because I will be working on scenario training with full Kit. (that is Helmet, vest, weapons, and full gear) we will do this in a multiple person, small room envirionment. The goal will be to subdue your attacker and disengage.

Usually when we do this, more aikido range techniques get worked into things.

I have to work my students backward from close in (most likely) mid range (best place to be) in this environment.

Also, placing minimal force constraints helps as well.Wow, that sort of training with full kit is a serious workout, but those guys can more than handle that I think.:)

I agree that with this sort of practice Aikido techniques tend to come out. From my experience the mobility Aikido waza offers allows the students to control the positioning and timing of multiple attacker engagements much better than when one's body is occupied in doing a leg reap or similar waza on a single opponent with others closing in rapidly.

I've also done some training with the founder of a proven Aikido-based DT system for LEOs and SWAT type teams that may have some bearing on what you're referring to above. If you'd like we can share some ideas via PM or you can e-mail me (it should be in my profile).

A major element if dealing with multiple attackers in a confined space will be combative interval (ma ai) control and use of environment to assist in controlling the rhythm of the engagements with multiple opponents. From a BJJ pespective the timing and range is much shorter which is good for a single attacker but can cause one to get easily crowded, restrained and ganged up on by other attackers.
I think it is all in how you approach your training with your mindset and objective.

To me, this is the key to aliveness. Keeping the proper perspective on what it is your are training and why.

It has nothing to do with so called "combat effective" which is typically translated to physically effective or overpowering.

Mindset and awareness is what makes your training alive.I think the above is critical whether one is training for physically effective technique, spiritual development or physical fitness since it sets the mind in the right place to analyze one's training and process what is happening and thereby design methods of achieving stated training goals. I agree totally with the above.

The more I teach and train with DT and military instructors I've realized that "combat effective" is more about perspective, mindset and the objective of your training instead of learning "killer techniques" per se.

Alive in a military context is quite different to alive the way most MA-ists think imho.

Good discussion.
LC:ai::ki:

Kevin Leavitt
12-24-2006, 03:08 AM
Again, thanks Larry.

A big difference is the perspective on the use of force. The guys I have been training have been infantry guys that are doing combat missions more so than LE type missions. I have steered clear of the "arrest techniques" and minimal force stuff since it gets very sticky with ROE. That and we only have so much time. I feel that teaching minimal force arrest techniques to these guys is somewhat dangerous as I may confuse them over what they learn when they get in theater. Again, we only have so much time as well.

Concentrating on the Clinch range is working from the inside out, once they are comfortable there we can move out to weapons range.

I am working with a few of our more advance people to determine what we can and should show them from that distance that would be somewhat universal in application without gettng into ROE or escalation of force situations. ROE and escalation of force must be coordinated closely with the chain of command and JAG.

Mindset, as you say, is very important. I notice a huge difference in students that are just training for PT and the ones I am preparing to go down range. Huge difference in how they approach training.

I think the aliveness context is difference, mainly in what we focus the priorities on training. i.e. more specific situational training versus wholistic. However, I see no reason why civilians could and should not approach their training with the same mindset.

The aliveness mind can be applied to all regardless of their LE, Military, or civilian situation.

I'd love to have the opportunity to train with you especially to better understand things from a defensive tactics/police background as I have no experience in this area at all.

L. Camejo
12-26-2006, 10:18 AM
A big difference is the perspective on the use of force. The guys I have been training have been infantry guys that are doing combat missions more so than LE type missions. I have steered clear of the "arrest techniques" and minimal force stuff since it gets very sticky with ROE. That and we only have so much time. I feel that teaching minimal force arrest techniques to these guys is somewhat dangerous as I may confuse them over what they learn when they get in theater. Again, we only have so much time as well. Hi Kevin,

I agree totally regarding ROE issues as well as potential confusion between the type of training given and type of mission your guys may go on. Our military is primarily involved in backing up the police in anti-crime or civil disturbance roles so I think the reverse situation is happening here. However I do not think arrest techniques etc. are a regular part of their training at all. I hope to address this with our consulting firm.

Concentrating on the Clinch range is working from the inside out, once they are comfortable there we can move out to weapons range. This sounds good. What I've found from my JJ/Aikido training is that a lot of the Jujutsu standing waza can be applied just inside the typical Aikido range as long one can get inside the reach of the target, close to the body. This calls for good irimi, but one does not need to be deep inside to make things work. Think of things like the Outer Leg Reap applied at arms length instead of at chest to chest range. Striking and/or balance disruption is applied on contact with the hands on the body, keeping the elbows straight and leaning the body weight through them as the reap is done. In fact this applies to most of the leg throws that we may find in Judo or BJJ.

I am working with a few of our more advance people to determine what we can and should show them from that distance that would be somewhat universal in application without gettng into ROE or escalation of force situations. ROE and escalation of force must be coordinated closely with the chain of command and JAG. Let us know what you come up with. This is a great area of discussion. At least for me anyway.:)

Mindset, as you say, is very important. I notice a huge difference in students that are just training for PT and the ones I am preparing to go down range. Huge difference in how they approach training. I agree totally. Training gets very different when you know your life may depend upon it.

I'd love to have the opportunity to train with you especially to better understand things from a defensive tactics/police background as I have no experience in this area at all.I'd love to do the same. I've had some experience with our own military guys but like I said above, a lot of their work is based in a civilian environment in a policeing context. I used to have 1 or 2 of our Spec Ops guys who had a totally different mindset since they trained for an entirely different mission type. I wish I had the chance to work with them some more though. From what I gather they are also doing a BJJ derivative for their close quarters stuff (of course they are US and UK trained).

I'd love to do some training with you also. It's great to bounce ideas off persons with different experiences and perspectives. Not sure when I'll be in Germany but I will be in Alabama In January 2007 doing a seminar at the Jujutsu Camp in Orange Beach. (http://www.akayamaryu.com/wintercamp2007.htm) I also get to the Maryland/DC area quite often.

Let us know how things go with your training on Wednesday. Like I said, interesting stuff.

LC:ai::ki:

Kevin Leavitt
12-26-2006, 11:57 AM
Larry I will probably be residing back in the DC area by early summer. Thanks for the comments.

L. Camejo
12-31-2006, 03:21 PM
Hi Kevin,

I may be in the US in August so I can possibly include DC as a potential point of entry/departure and come see you then.

Any news on how the session went on Wednesday?

Gambatte and Happy New Year to all.

LC:ai::ki:

Kevin Leavitt
01-01-2007, 08:18 AM
We decided not to play with the gear. (holiday laziness had a bit to do with it :)) Also, after we worked out on tuesday, we decided that we needed to work on a few other things. Had two new students as well, so we had to go back and teach some basics.

Cool, I whould be back in the area then. If so, I will probably be training at Aikido of NOVA again with Jimmy Sorrentino. Also looking around at finding a place to practice BJJ and will probably be working over at Fort Meyer with Old Guard soldiers as well doing Modern Army Combatives.

Kevin Leavitt
01-01-2007, 08:25 AM
We did work heavily on closing distance and clinching though. I watched a ton of fight videos last week. All of them are the same at a base level. close distance, clinch, takedown, and dominate/submit.

very, very simple, and basic...in fact it is ingrained in us to fight this way as a instinct. Watching non-skilled fighters...even they do it. so that is what we worked on. Next step we will work on this with our gear on to help soldiers get a feel for this.

Mike Galante
01-13-2007, 09:37 PM
Just to add my 02. ukes job is to react to nages lead. if there is no lead, then there is no reaction.

If nage is to mirror the attack, then uke should mirror nages lead, clear his mind of prior knowledge of the technique and be in the moment. To me, in many ways, ukemi is such a valuable part of what we do, it takes a lot of courage, trust, keeping centered, as well as being in the moment. It may even be more difficult than performing the technique, it certainly is spiritually beneficial, in that it teaches humility and provides nage with a learning experience. Overly compliant uke cheats nage of a learning experience. It leads him into this false sense of accomplishment. Not fair. We work too hard to have that.
Non compliant uke cannot allow technique to be learned with movements, spirals, which will become much smaller later.

Also one can much more completely understand the "techniques" by taking ukemi for them. Especially the movements which take into account ukes secondary reactions, such as Kaitenage and iriminage, where uke tries to get up.

Lorien Lowe
04-18-2007, 02:00 AM
kiai master doesn't fare well against nonbeliever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

jennifer paige smith
05-15-2007, 09:22 AM
This is a quote from above: "These videos are a good thing. There are far too many people who have gotten away for years with living in a fantasy land that doesn't even remotely stand up in the real world."

Please qualify your premise.

Which is the fantasy land?
What do you mean by real world?

statisticool
05-16-2007, 06:54 PM
The videos of sport/entertainment matches are good. Too many times I think I'm in a fantasy land. I need a ref, thousands of fans, rules of the fight, a paycheck to fight, and ring girls to get me out of my fantasy land..