PDA

View Full Version : Seagal's technique...is it his size?


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


kkg
11-18-2006, 05:38 PM
I have been going to YouTube and other online sources and checking out various Aikido video clips. I have been watching the old footage of Seagal on the mat and I see that his technique is so much more intense than any other footage I have seen of Aikido training. I have read that his style is influenced by Hiroshi Isoyama Shihan and so it is more forceful, but is it also his height advantage that I am seeing? I'm not into his movies or anything, but I can't help but be impressed by his style and technique on the mat. I am new to all of this and am trying to figure some things out. Thanks.

Michael Varin
11-18-2006, 10:05 PM
There's no doubt about it. In his pre-movie star days Seagal was very good. I never trained with him or saw him in person, but I have trained with two of his former students Haruo Matsuoka and Larry Reynosa. Neither of them is over 5'8" but apart from their lack of imposing size they move and perform techniques much like Seagal. They are sharp but totally fluid. I never felt that I was being muscled. Their footwork is also very smart. I think one of the reasons for this is that they seem to emphasize dynamic, as opposed to stepwise, execution of the techniques from the beginning. You can do this regardless of the style you practice, even if no one else in your dojo does. I imagine Seagal's height was an advantage for him, but if you watch closely you'll see that he overcame many of the obstacles that tall people face. He was able to get low quickly while maintaining strong posture and mobility. And that comes from being dedicated and not accepting excuses or shortcuts.

Also, Matsuoka was most likely his uke in the footage you saw. Matsuoka might have the best ukemi ever, and the way your partner takes ukemi has a big impact on how "good" things look.

Michael

Double M
11-19-2006, 03:14 AM
Great info, Michael. I met Larry Reynosa at a seminar once in St. Louis I think it was. A real class act right there.

More on Seagal, if you do watch his earlier movies you'll catch some of his students in the fight scenes and I think Matsuoka was one of them. Bin Dang is another of his students that portrays fight stunts. In his later movies you'll find Seagal's fight scenes being sped up in the film due to his gaining weight and his lack of student support in his movies. Fight scenes were dubbed and/or slowed down then sped up on film to make it appear more realistic.

Kent, you might also want to find a Seagal documentary called "The Path Beyond Thought" as it has rare footage of Seagal in his younger days.

xuzen
11-20-2006, 12:05 AM
That man (SS) has got to lose some weight... He was after all once aikido's poster boy.

Boon.

SeiserL
11-20-2006, 07:29 AM
IMHO, hafta agree with what has been said; his technique was (and may still be) excellent, and his students are class acts (trained with both mentioned).

Being tall myself (6'4") makes some techniques easier (from above), others harder (from below).

The man must be important to us, because we waste a lot of time talking about him instead of training.

Ron Tisdale
11-20-2006, 08:26 AM
Matsuoka Sensei is a gem. Got to train with him once, and he really is the real deal. Just a note though...he has really moved toward Abe Sensei and his take on things to take the next step in his aikido life. Just to make you aware that the man is always looking and changing according to what he sees.

Best,
Ron

Tony Wagstaffe
11-20-2006, 10:09 AM
My honest opinion is his uke's are very good. I just wonder how well he would fare against a good Shodokan player? :straightf ;)

DonMagee
11-20-2006, 12:07 PM
My honest opinion is his uke's are very good. I just wonder how well he would fare against a good Shodokan player? :straightf ;)

Or for that matter Gene LeBell



Sorry I couldn't resist :D

Michael Varin
11-20-2006, 01:56 PM
:D Good one, Don!

mriehle
11-20-2006, 04:54 PM
I
The man must be important to us, because we waste a lot of time talking about him instead of training.

I like to think it's "as well as training", rather than "instead of training".

It makes no difference, really, but it sounds nicer. ;)

But he does get discussed a lot. :rolleyes:

Mato-san
11-22-2006, 09:20 AM
I love the tall guy small guy thing........I am the biggest guy in both dojo I train at.....I am only 185 cm tall and 90kg...but here that is big. Sensei always has an answer.......so my point here is that size has no advantage. (I personally think a wee bit of power compliments a technique well, but that is not the objective). Always Sensei will take seiza with me as uke to demonstrate the different dynamic for the tall man waza, often a a different approach for a big man but equally effective. Also I learn how to handle the different sized uke.......I kinda wish for a big uke sometimes...but being on the recieving end of one of these type waza ,I can really appreciate the works of it all.

Ron Tisdale
11-22-2006, 10:39 AM
so my point here is that size has no advantage.

I have come to believe that only a MA without competition could have people that make this general statement without caveats...

Best,
Ron

Double M
11-22-2006, 11:06 AM
Ok, I'll bite....

There is a guy I work with that I was helping understand what Aikido is. This guy is 6 feet tall and weighs a whopping 320 lbs, and is a semi-pro american football player in his free time. I am 5'8" and weigh a staggering 155lbs. After helping this fellow along and teaching him roughly ten basic and more common Aikido techniques I can say that his size makes it harder for me to control him and toss him when we "freestyle". I have to use techniques and tactics he has not been introduced to in order to get him down or locked up. And heaven forbid I attempt a technique he is skilled in because he is able to overpower me regardless because he is bigger, heavier, and stronger than I am. At times I will challenge him by resisting and applying my strength to him in order to "ward off" a technique and see how he responds and he is able to feel my flow and use it against me, very rarely does he have to apply his strength to me directly. A light tap from him is much harder on me than my light tap to him, simple physics of size come into play.

Also, it is harder for me to apply certain techniques on him as there is such a vast size difference so he knows automatically that I will be inneffective in 1/3 of my aikido vocabulary off the bat. So when we do go freestyle I am able to intermix my aikido with my other skills so essentially I am doing what would appear to be more like Shinto-Ryu or Wado-Ryu after applying techniques of traditional Jujitsu , Shotokan, or even a more modernized "art" like Krav Maga or the use of a pressure point. On the strictly Aikido standpoint of training, we both make a great uke and he likes to take ukemi from me even when he says "oh hell" prior to being thrown 10 feet.

My point is that size does indeed make a difference, especially when there is resistance and there is no cooperative uke. Try to freestyle with a larger partner once or twice to see what I mean. Before my friend became a 5th Kyu he was easier to handle in freestyle, now he is hard to handle, but I love it and I love the challenge because I learn so much from it.

Basia Halliop
11-22-2006, 11:16 AM
so my point here is that size has no advantage

Try practicing hard (eg with uke being even a little bit more aggressive than usual) with a few different people _at a similar level of experience as you_ and smaller, then with a few people with a similar level of experience and bigger/heavier, and then consider if you still think that. I am one of the smaller people in my dojo and I don't agree at all.

Of course skill matters as well and in the case of your Sensei maybe he is so much more skilled that the net result is comfortably in his favour, but I really don't agree that size has no advantage. It does have occasional disadvantages too, like higher centre of gravity, but still -- if someone is 150% of my weight, even if he has just walked in with no experience at all, I'd have to be pretty darn skilled to get out of a really 'freestyle' randori!

Luckily my training partners aren't actually trying to kill or injure me, and we are trying to learn, so instead I just get to learn a lot about doing a technique on someone bigger/heavier/taller than you (which I guess is a training advantage of being smaller -- more practice with bigger people :) ).

Ethan Weisgard
11-22-2006, 11:22 AM
Jut for the record: Seagal Sensei's contact with Isoyama Sensei came not so many years ago, much after the films of him that are referred to in this thread. His main influences have been mentioned elsewhere, I believe they were Tohei Sensei, and later on Abe Sensei.

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

Mato-san
11-23-2006, 10:00 AM
A good waza for me (aikido waza) is one that reflects that size has no contributing factor to the effectiveness of the particular waza.

We are talking about Aikido are we not?

tenshinaikidoka
11-23-2006, 10:59 AM
Jut for the record: Seagal Sensei's contact with Isoyama Sensei came not so many years ago, much after the films of him that are referred to in this thread. His main influences have been mentioned elsewhere, I believe they were Tohei Sensei, and later on Abe Sensei.

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard


Actually, not to start a debate here, but he actually DID train with Isoyama Shihan in Japan when he had the TenShin dojo there with his then wife. He was not introduced to him after his movies. This has been documented by both Seagal and Isoyama, in writing and TV documentaries.

SeiserL
11-23-2006, 11:03 AM
A good waza for me (aikido waza) is one that reflects that size has no contributing factor to the effectiveness of the particular waza. We are talking about Aikido are we not?
While on the one hand, I would agree that Aikido is about blending and taking balance and that size is not a determining factors per say.

On the other hand, IMHO certain techniques certainly lend themselves easier to the size of the person executing them and is then a contributing factor.

Double M
11-24-2006, 11:53 AM
I'm wondering if maybe the blending and evasion of Aikido as it relates to the common Aikidoka might be getting confused with the blending and evasion level of O'Sensei. O'Sensei was small in stature yet strong beyond his size, also his ability to master several martial arts before creating Aikido as it is known have lead me to think that his ability is obviously greater than ours and his sensitivity level to feel force is much greater than ours. Hmmm...

Lynn, you'd know more on the subject than the rest of us as you've got more years than we do in the art of peace. And I agree with what you've said. Especially in a dojo atmosphere where uke is supposed to cooperate to a certain point. But size is still a factor in a controlled environment like a dojo. A smaller person, such as myself, has a harder time applying a technique like Katatetori shiho-nage ura to a larger opponent or uke while applying ryotetori tenchi nage is almost impossible. For a perspective, I am 5 feet 8 inches tall. By larger persons I will consider anyone over 6 feet tall.

So by my personal reasoning I can easily flip the coin and see how certain techniques, such as ryotetori tenchi nage would be much easier to apply on someone my size or smaller. So yes, size does play a role and size does have it's advantages in certain techniques.

Good post.

mriehle
11-25-2006, 09:42 AM
My two cents:

Size matters. Both directions.

Size is irrelevant. Both directions.

Both of these statements are one hundred percent true. But neither is complete.

Size doesn't matter if the technique is executed correctly. There are certain techniques which are (or at least should be) more about making uke want to go where you are leading than about dragging them along. If you succeed in leading it doesn't matter how big they are. You can lead them right to the place where kuzushi is possible and there you go.

But, if the technique is not correct, it becomes a strength contest. Then size matters. A lot.

But size also matters for some techniques because of things like being able to get down low. Try this: do shiho nage on a five year old. I do it all the time. It's way easier on adults. :D

(In one of Aikido's little ironies, learning to manage shiho nage on a five year old made it easier for me to throw a guy who's well over six feet tall and strong as an ox with it, though I'd be hard-pressed to explain how.)

Size also matters on a psychological level. I had one student who could execute techniques at a very high level with everyone except one really big guy in the dojo. Everytime he was faced with this guy he'd start pushing and pulling and yanking and - sure enough - none of his techniques worked. Okay, so the "big guy" in this case is kind of an extreme case, still, I can throw him without much effort and I'm almost a foot shorter than my student who couldn't.

Size psychs people out.

But I've also seen big guys who couldn't manage anything resembling Aikido. They were so used to being able to out-muscle people that they just did so without thinking about it. Of course, it's always interesting when they come up against another big guy. :D

Over the years I've found that certain techniques are a lot easier to execute on someone bigger than me, others work better against someone smaller and most work regardless as long as I'm doing the technique correctly. The definition of "correctly", though, needs to take my partners size (and my own!) into account.

Size doesn't make a difference as to whether you can throw someone, but it does make a difference how in how you must go about it.

Ethan Weisgard
11-30-2006, 10:04 AM
Actually, not to start a debate here, but he actually DID train with Isoyama Shihan in Japan when he had the TenShin dojo there with his then wife. He was not introduced to him after his movies. This has been documented by both Seagal and Isoyama, in writing and TV documentaries.

I stand corrected.

In Aiki,

Ethan

statisticool
12-23-2006, 05:58 PM
I have been going to YouTube and other online sources and checking out various Aikido video clips. I have been watching the old footage of Seagal on the mat and I see that his technique is so much more intense than any other footage I have seen of Aikido training. I have read that his style is influenced by Hiroshi Isoyama Shihan and so it is more forceful, but is it also his height advantage that I am seeing? I'm not into his movies or anything, but I can't help but be impressed by his style and technique on the mat. I am new to all of this and am trying to figure some things out. Thanks.

From what I've heard his techniques are really top notch.

Jarvis Cherron Kolen
12-25-2006, 07:22 AM
Kent Glasser: I worked out with Seagal Sensei many years ago back home in California. I was young, STRONG, athletic(wrestled and played American football on the collegiate level)and brash beyond belief about my Jujitsu skills. He handled me with total finesse and grace.

I will say this, he had some of the most smooth technique I had encountered at that time. Also, he was extremely pleasant to me and even gave me so personal pointers after the camp.

Mato-san
12-26-2006, 10:39 AM
Yes...lynn I am the biggest and strongest guy in the dojo....because I am in Japan most guys are smaller...so my objective is to feel out these techniques...and obviously Sensei is growing from this experience...so to am I. Lucky he respects and explores and therefore we can all grow.That is what is all about isn`t it? I could easly learn to manipulate the syllubus with my strength but I prefer to let it grow and prove itself....not to mention Sensei was a uchideshi of Tohei for 5 years and hombu instructor for 16....so his waza is pretty strong.

Mato-san
12-26-2006, 10:50 AM
Would you agree some experience comes into play also....with a good shihonage.....if i go hard with a shomenuchi at an experienced player.(small)..they can put me down fast and hard....small or large they do it hard and smooth......I can do it hard but not as smooth!....but then again some waza I guess my size and strenght play a nice roll....so I am on the fence...but nice topic....really I am trying to get away from using strength......maybe I should leave Japan.

natasha cebek
01-09-2007, 04:01 PM
I can say that his size makes it harder for me to control him and toss him when we "freestyle". I have to use techniques and tactics he has not been introduced to in order to get him down or locked up. And heaven forbid I attempt a technique he is skilled in because he is able to overpower me regardless because he is bigger, heavier, and stronger than I am.
.

I am 5'3" about 130( ;) ) and I train in Karate,Aiki Jujutsu and Aikido. Being relatively short, it has taken quite a long time understanding how strength and power works. Big brawny guys have always been somewhat of a problem, mainly due to their weight and thickness. What I finally figured out (what my Sensei's had been telling me-oh only about 10 billion times) was that in order for me to move a 250lb. guy, I needed to move from Hara. I still struggle with this, but when I move from Hara with correct posture and good technique- I can move anyone with relative ease-even a stiff and very resistent beginner. Training in Karate and Aiki has been tremendously useful to me in understanding power and no power. A good way to understand strength is to teach a small child how to throw you-if you can do that and feel their power(ki)-without giving it to them-then perhaps you might not struggle anymore. That's exactly what I did and after that everything changed.
Now of course this always easier said than done, but hopefully we eventually get it and are able to keep it.

Coz:UK
01-17-2007, 06:39 AM
Hi, I'm 6'3" and 110Kg (240lbs?) and have been struggling to NOT use my size and strength in my aikido for the 4 years I've been practising. I've only trained with someone bigger than me on a few occassions and that was most insightful. :eek: I would say that I do use my size when my technique doesn't quite suffice, but I'm working on that. ;)

I'm hoping in the future to start a juniors class at our dojo so the comments regarding training with children are very interesting to me.

mut
01-23-2007, 12:22 PM
Ok, I'll bite....

There is a guy I work with that I was helping understand what Aikido is. This guy is 6 feet tall and weighs a whopping 320 lbs, and is a semi-pro american football player in his free time. I am 5'8" and weigh a staggering 155lbs. After helping this fellow along and teaching him roughly ten basic and more common Aikido techniques I can say that his size makes it harder for me to control him and toss him when we "freestyle". I have to use techniques and tactics he has not been introduced to in order to get him down or locked up. And heaven forbid I attempt a technique he is skilled in because he is able to overpower me regardless because he is bigger, heavier, and stronger than I am. At times I will challenge him by resisting and applying my strength to him in order to "ward off" a technique and see how he responds and he is able to feel my flow and use it against me, very rarely does he have to apply his strength to me directly. A light tap from him is much harder on me than my light tap to him, simple physics of size come into play.

Also, it is harder for me to apply certain techniques on him as there is such a vast size difference so he knows automatically that I will be inneffective in 1/3 of my aikido vocabulary off the bat. So when we do go freestyle I am able to intermix my aikido with my other skills so essentially I am doing what would appear to be more like Shinto-Ryu or Wado-Ryu after applying techniques of traditional Jujitsu , Shotokan, or even a more modernized "art" like Krav Maga or the use of a pressure point. On the strictly Aikido standpoint of training, we both make a great uke and he likes to take ukemi from me even when he says "oh hell" prior to being thrown 10 feet.

My point is that size does indeed make a difference, especially when there is resistance and there is no cooperative uke. Try to freestyle with a larger partner once or twice to see what I mean. Before my friend became a 5th Kyu he was easier to handle in freestyle, now he is hard to handle, but I love it and I love the challenge because I learn so much from it.
i personally think size dont mean sh*t, if you have a great understanding of aikido,and you do it for real and not to dance, i have a guy in my class who is 6ft 3 and about 2ft wide, but if your technique is right then he will go,and thats him being non cooperative, you may need a little atemi to soften him up first but hey, o sensei said 90% of aikido is atemi,its not the size its the mind, aikido is designed to overcome size n strength.you just got to get good at it. one of my friends who is a fantastic 3rd dan, i mean wow the size of the people he overcomes, theres one guy in our organization whos a rock climber and hes all muscle, but hes no match for phil(the 3rd dan)and thats non cooperative as well.you just got to believe in aikido and yourself and find away, there is always a way.thankyou. :ai:

Basia Halliop
01-23-2007, 12:33 PM
one of my friends who is a fantastic 3rd dan, i mean wow the size of the people he overcomes, theres one guy in our organization whos a rock climber and hes all muscle, but hes no match for phil(the 3rd dan)and thats non cooperative as well.

You're comparing a 3rd dan to someone much less skilled. I think that makes some sense intuitively -- I can believe that enough skill can make the other person's strength that much less important. But that's a slightly different statement from 'strength and size are meaningless.' What if your 3rd dan met another equally 'fantastic' 3rd dan who had just as much skill but was _also_ much bigger and stronger? Maybe it would come down to the individuals (?), but I think it's an interesting question.

Freerefill
01-23-2007, 01:54 PM
My sensei is pushing 50 (but you didn't hear that from me), is about 5'3", and can't weigh more than 120 lbs. She's a tiny little thing, and that isn't the norm in our dojo, which consists of at least 3 large burly men (myself one of them) and one 6'6" scrawny dude, plus an extra who's very very muscular and limber. She can down them all with a smile. She, and many of us actually, loves to be resisted from time to time because it reminds us that an overly generous uke isn't always the best training partner. I've asked for resistance from many of my senpai and kohai because I can't feel a connection to an uke who takes the fall before I deliver it. And many have asked me for resistance because.. well.. I'm a large person and difficult to topple.

And sometimes I deliver resistance when it's not asked for and senpai hurts me.. but that's a story for another day.. :P

Every time I don't perform a technique properly, be it an immovable senpai or a flailing kohai, I look inside myself for what I could do differently. If an inexperienced kohai weasles out of my grip by chance, then I should look for ways that I can counter that. If an experienced senpai just stands there grinning while I struggle, same deal.

I strongly don't think size or numbers matter, only the skill. O-sensei demonstrates this nicely. In his later years, he was small, thin, and old. Yet he still managed to perform wonderfully against large, burly, young men... sometimes several at a time, and none of them were just being nice.

One could perhaps think of it this way: when you connect to uke, you're harmonizing with their energy and essentially controlling it... controlling all of it. You then add a small bit of your own to redirect or whathaveyou. If you're controlling their energy plus your own energy, and they're controlling.. well.. at best, their own energy, then you will always have the upper hand, no matter how large they are.

At least, that's my opinion. I could be wrong.

Keith R Lee
01-23-2007, 02:23 PM
i personally think size dont mean sh*t, if you have a great understanding of aikido,and you do it for real and not to dance, i have a guy in my class who is 6ft 3 and about 2ft wide, but if your technique is right then he will go,and thats him being non cooperative, you may need a little atemi to soften him up first but hey, o sensei said 90% of aikido is atemi,its not the size its the mind, aikido is designed to overcome size n strength.you just got to get good at it. one of my friends who is a fantastic 3rd dan, i mean wow the size of the people he overcomes, theres one guy in our organization whos a rock climber and hes all muscle, but hes no match for phil(the 3rd dan)and thats non cooperative as well.you just got to believe in aikido and yourself and find away, there is always a way.thankyou. :ai:

and yet...somehow...in every competitive combative sport in the world, there are weight classes. How odd...

Basia Halliop
01-23-2007, 02:33 PM
And many have asked me for resistance because.. well.. I'm a large person and difficult to topple.

I like practicing with people much larger than me too -- but that's partly because they're often, as you say, 'difficult to topple', and trying something more challenging can sometimes teach you a lot and improve your skills.

Ron Tisdale
01-23-2007, 02:50 PM
O-sensei demonstrates this nicely. In his later years, he was small, thin, and old. Yet he still managed to perform wonderfully against large, burly, young men... sometimes several at a time, and none of them were just being nice.

But how can we verify that none of them were being nice? I've actually heard that the uke were being very respectfull...and that is the impression I get from watching video as well.

Best,
Ron

Kevin Leavitt
01-23-2007, 02:52 PM
I agree Ron. I don't put much faith in watching the videos as there is much left to the imagination, and much we simply cannot know. Our minds can run amuck with conjecture and assumptions when we really think we are looking at facts and reality.

Adam Alexander
01-26-2007, 04:05 PM
and yet...somehow...in every competitive combative sport in the world, there are weight classes. How odd...

I'd guess multiple reasons. 1)It takes a great deal of time to reach a level where a person is able to overcome size with technique. 2)I would think that those who do know how to do that, probably don't care to waste their time in a ring. 3)When you reach a level where size doesn't matter, the match would be very brief (like a Tyson fight...who wants to pay thirty bucks for thirty seconds of fight?) and wouldn't be commercially productive or gratifying to the ego.

Just guesses. Who knows.

natasha cebek
01-26-2007, 04:39 PM
But how can we verify that none of them were being nice? I've actually heard that the uke were being very respectfull...and that is the impression I get from watching video as well.
We can't verify anything except through our own practice. Can you explain how a 7 year old girl could throw me, with nothing more than her intention and proper technique?
And for the record, I wasn't giving her anything.

Aristeia
01-26-2007, 04:54 PM
you weren't giving her anything? What about an attack? You're always giving *something*. So if this 7 year old girl was standing between you and a loved one in danger, are you saying you couldn't get through her?

as for the weight classes discussion - Size and strength are indeed important. They augment strength. When the skill gap is very great (look at UFC's 1-4) size and strength can be overcome. When skills are more on a par, (not necessarily equivalent but in the ball park) then size and strength is all that is left to determine advantage. Which is why the UFC now has weight classes - you don't get the same total mismatch of skill that you did in 93.

scarey
01-27-2007, 11:21 AM
if you have a great understanding of aikido,and you do it for real and not to dance, i have a guy in my class who is 6ft 3 and about 2ft wide, but if your technique is right then he will go,and thats him being non cooperative, you may need a little atemi to soften him up first but hey, o sensei said 90% of aikido is atemi,its not the size its the mind, aikido is designed to overcome size n strength.you just got to get good at it.


This is true. I suppose that many people have the impression that since Aikido is the art of peace, there shouldn't be any hitting or punching coming from Nage. But atemi isn't about just hitting and striking. I think it's also about finding Uke's opening and making Uke understand they *could* be hit. This has both the physical and psychological effect of making it easier (and necessary for Uke to go down.

Keith R Lee
01-27-2007, 02:28 PM
I'd guess multiple reasons. 1)It takes a great deal of time to reach a level where a person is able to overcome size with technique. 2)I would think that those who do know how to do that, probably don't care to waste their time in a ring. 3)When you reach a level where size doesn't matter, the match would be very brief (like a Tyson fight...who wants to pay thirty bucks for thirty seconds of fight?) and wouldn't be commercially productive or gratifying to the ego.

Just guesses. Who knows.

Well, I thought I was very clearly being facetious.

Like Michael posted above, when two people are generally equal in their skillset, the larger/stronger/more athletic person will usually win. It's true in boxing, wrestling, whatever. Yet for some reason some people tend to think that somehow martial artists are immune to this. It's why the UFC/MMA have weight classes and why a bigger person generally beats a smaller person. Flying crane eye-gouge throat-knee double strikes are fantasty.

Also, I'm with Michael on the 7 year old thing. No way could a 7 year old throw me if I didn't want them to, and more than likely I could just pick them up and throw them on the ground as hard as I could and that would end any resistence on their part. Another example of size/strength mattering.

Peter Savill
01-27-2007, 05:20 PM
Must agree...no way a 7yr old could throw you unless they were a mutant :freaky: , you are very small indeed or a great deal of cooperation is going on!

Best Wishes

Cady Goldfield
01-27-2007, 06:54 PM
Sokaku Takeda (Ueshiba's teacher) always said that women and children could do Daito-ryu. Ueshiba's aikido was based on Daito-ryu, and he regularly "trashed" big, burly men much larger than he, when they weren't cooperatiing, even when he was a frail, elderly man. Why do you suppose that was?

CNYMike
01-27-2007, 08:04 PM
.....when two people are generally equal in their skillset, the larger/stronger/more athletic person will usually win. It's true in boxing, wrestling, whatever. Yet for some reason some people tend to think that somehow martial artists are immune to this .....

"Immune" migt be the wrong word. Most self defense situations assume you'll haveto deal with someone bigger than you. Women's self defense, AFAIK, does not assume that an Amazon weight lifter is being accosted by a 98 pound pipsqueak, but that an average sized woman is being assaulted by someone bigger stronger than she is.

.... It's why the UFC/MMA have weight classes and why a bigger person generally beats a smaller person ....

Well, then if you're a smaller person you'd better give some thought to how to break the rules and deal with a bigger person because there ain't no weight classes on the street!


Flying crane eye-gouge throat-knee double strikes are fantasty.


Then why do they exist in the first place?


Also, I'm with Michael on the 7 year old thing. No way could a 7 year old throw me if I didn't want them to, and more than likely I could just pick them up and throw them on the ground as hard as I could and that would end any resistence on their part. Another example of size/strength mattering.

See above. Quite simply, if you don't want your 7 year old kidnapped/raped/whatever, better have SOME idea how to deal with an adult.

natasha cebek
01-27-2007, 08:47 PM
OK, so explain how Ueshiba-barely skimming 5' (if that) and probably weighing no more than a 100lbs, was able to throw men twice his size. You obviously don't get it yet...It's never been about size..... EVER,ever!!!! In fact the bigger someone is, the harder they fall...unless they have good ukemi of course :D ..As far as a 7 year old throwing me...well, I wasn't talking about attacking..I was teaching her the importance of the uke/tori connection. When I said that I did not give her anything-what I meant was that I was solid. Without understanding the connection, you have nothing but a lot of body. Have you ever picked up a baby that did not want to be picked up? Have you ever grappled with someone about your own size and all of sudden, they went from 180lbs to what seemed liked 500 lbs and then, the image of your lungs being crushed comes to mind.
This is about energy,chi-whatever you want to call it.
Even experienced karateka understand how to generate their chi, not all..but most do after a time.

Aristeia
01-28-2007, 02:37 AM
certainly there is a certain amount of not getting it on this thread.

Michael Varin
01-28-2007, 05:02 AM
OK, so explain how Ueshiba-barely skimming 5' (if that) and probably weighing no more than a 100lbs, was able to throw men twice his size. You obviously don't get it yet...It's never been about size..... EVER,ever!!!!Actually, I've heard Morihei say in an interview that at one time he weighed 175lbs. At 5' - 5'1" that's a pretty stout fellow. In the same interview he talks fondly about how rippled his muscles were, and how he once carried 1200lbs. He also makes the comment that in terms of physical power alone he was never defeated.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=k-Sugag-Ncs

Weight, strength, athleticism does matter. It's not the whole picture, but it's a major component.

Michael

Adam Alexander
01-28-2007, 03:26 PM
Weight, strength, athleticism does matter. It's not the whole picture, but it's a major component.


I think the disagreement is a miscommunication. All those things matter, however, I believe what those of us who say they don't are actually trying to say that there's a technical solution or preventative to any issue of strength and weight.

However, I don't think anyone would say that technical ability with extra strength is bad.

Aristeia
01-28-2007, 06:11 PM
I think the disagreement is a miscommunication. All those things matter, however, I believe what those of us who say they don't are actually trying to say that there's a technical solution or preventative to any issue of strength and weight.
.assuming there is a mismatch in technical ability. When the ability is close....

statisticool
01-28-2007, 11:35 PM
IMO size, strength, speed, etc., along with more "refined" things like skill, 'energy', etc., are all components going into an equation. How much each one contributes, I have no idea, but from basic physics, larger and stronger people can deliver more power, all other things being equal.

Michael Varin
01-29-2007, 04:12 AM
I believe what those of us who say they don't are actually trying to say that there's a technical solution or preventative to any issue of strength and weight.Any issue of strength and weight?

You don't think that a 6'7" 370lb offensive lineman could with sheer physicality overwhelm a highly skilled 5'8" 160lb martial artist?

There is a technical solution to the strength/weight issue. It's simple and is one of the defining traits of humans -- the use of tools. We never would've made it if we kept trying to wrestle bears and tigers.

Sticks, spears, knives, swords, guns, some are better equalizers than others, but they all seriously address this issue.

Weapons, like anything, require skill to be used effectively, and most importantly a calm and composed mind, which I would say is another of the major components.

Michael

natasha cebek
01-29-2007, 06:33 AM
Michael,
Your right.
Size, strength and conditioning always help but cannot define the outcome of a fight or self defense situation against a skilled martial artist. A composed and calm mind-there are other names for it like "mushin" which means "no mind " or "warrior mind" can effectively give a person a lot more leverage.
Within the different styles of martial arts that I study, I have learned that all share the same principles. For example; Aikido,Hakkoryu,Jujutsu and Karate all have kota gaiesh-the principle is exactly the same, but the "exclamation point", direction or focal point of energy is quite different between all of them...tools!
I have never let size deter me and again let me stress that I still do struggle with the big thick body type but once in awhile, when I utilize certain components together and with the right mind set-I can move a very large person with very little effort.
A large person can be "Mr. Atlas" strong yet incredibly slow, a tiny person can have no strength, but their speed is astounding. The mind directs traffic and the more options that the mind has within its arsenal..the more leverage one has.

CNYMike
01-29-2007, 11:50 AM
Any issue of strength and weight?

You don't think that a 6'7" 370lb offensive lineman could with sheer physicality overwhelm a highly skilled 5'8" 160lb martial artist?

Depends on what the 5'8" martial artist knows.


There is a technical solution to the strength/weight issue. It's simple and is one of the defining traits of humans -- the use of tools. We never would've made it if we kept trying to wrestle bears and tigers.

Sticks, spears, knives, swords, guns, some are better equalizers than others, but they all seriously address this issue.

And raise a whole host of new issues, like being acquainted with the legal limits on the use of deadly force. But let's say for the sake of argument you're the 5' 8" martial artist facing the 6' 7" linebacker and you don't have an equalizing weapon handy. What are you going to do? Say "Sorry, you can't attack me because you're out of my weight class"? Or rethink the premise that the smaller guy is always doomed? Personally, I'd say the latter, but that's just me.

Michael Varin
01-29-2007, 05:29 PM
And raise a whole host of new issues, like being acquainted with the legal limits on the use of deadly force.It is a shame that we live in an anti-self-defense society. Don't forget, these legal issues that you brought up can affect you whether there is a weapon involved or not. Plus, your view seems a little narrow. Pepper spray is effective and won't cause injury. Most criminals are looking for easy targets; just brandishing a weapon with intent to use it will often cause them to reevaluate their decision.

But let's say for the sake of argument you're the 5' 8" martial artist facing the 6' 7" linebacker and you don't have an equalizing weapon handy. What are you going to do? Say "Sorry, you can't attack me because you're out of my weight class"? Or rethink the premise that the smaller guy is always doomed? Personally, I'd say the latter, but that's just me.I didn't say the smaller guy is always doomed. I try to stay away from always and never statements.

Back on topic.
Instead of speculating experience it for yourself. I strongly suggest training against people of varying sizes, not in a uke-nage relationship, but where each person has the same intention, both attempting to apply techniques while counteracting the techniques of the other. After doing this post your experiences. How much of a factor was size and strength?

Michael

CNYMike
01-30-2007, 01:09 AM
.....Instead of speculating experience it for yourself. I strongly suggest training against people of varying sizes, not in a uke-nage relationship, but where each person has the same intention, both attempting to apply techniques while counteracting the techniques of the other. After doing this post your experiences. How much of a factor was size and strength?

Michael

Again, "it depends." Sparring is where I am weakest; I frequenty get hit more than I hit back, and yes, when I have sparred with someone bigger, faster and stronger than me, I get steamrolled. But does that mean that size an strength trump technique? Or is it a "false positive" because after all these years, it is still an area where I'm struggling? Given that I also get beat on by people who weigh less than I do, the latter seems likely.

Adam Alexander
02-01-2007, 08:24 PM
Any issue of strength and weight?

You don't think that a 6'7" 370lb offensive lineman could with sheer physicality overwhelm a highly skilled 5'8" 160lb martial artist?

Any, yes.

Overwhelmed, the tools are there.