Get Real/ On the street

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[markwalsh]

How aikido helps me in real life (tm):

- Keeps me happy. :D
- Gives me awareness of body.
- Keeps me calm (this saved me from house fire once)
- Helps me communicate with others. :p
- Increases confidance - so when walking in streets of São Paulo people don't want to mug me.
- Reduces risk of heart attack and helps avoid addictive behaviors :yuck:
- Provides social network and support. :square:

Next time someone asks if aikido works please refer them here. I value very practical aikido and have fought off some challengers in shiel establishing dojo in Africa, but that's not how aikido really works for me. I have yet to fight off a hoard of Mongolian warriors but respects if you have :-)

How does aikido work for you in your actual non-fantasy real life (tm)? Not the one importnat time you need it for self defence, but the rest of the time.

Keep it real youall,
Ali Mark G
:cool:

"your trophy is your head" - Saotome Shihan

[SeiserL]

How does aikido work for you in your actual non-fantasy real life (tm)?
It works just fine, thank you.

[markwalsh]

I would like to clarify that I'm not suggesting anyone's aikido does or doesn't work - only that we might consider a broader definition of "work" and expand the same old conversation that keeps happening online and in bars around the world.

Request is in your life how does it work - such as Dr Seiser discussion on drug rehab.

[Steve Mullen]

I have found that making form helps you keep loads of room around you at a music festival. :)

[markwalsh]

I'm really frustrated that Aiki Web members are more interested in discussing whose dad can hit hows dad, the tiny details of a wrist locks and some bloke called Jeff, than the reality of aikido in theirs lives!!!!! Not saying anyone doesn't have a right to talk about what they like, sure that Jeff is a nice fellow and the wrist lock thing will come in handy for you one day - like getting technical myself some days - but can we move things forward? I think this is why many people leave AW - get sick of same old types conversations.

....Ooops - sorry was taking life/the Internet seriously again - will get on MSN and get heavy dose of sarcasm from a friend back home immediately :-)

[David Orange]

I'm really frustrated that Aiki Web members are more interested in discussing whose dad can hit hows dad, the tiny details of a wrist locks and some bloke called Jeff, than the reality of aikido in theirs lives!!!!!

Well, Mark, for me, it's been the entre to learn French, Japanese and some Chinese language. It's led me to travel, meet people from around the world, learn other cultures, other arts, other views of life. It has led me to experience a wide range of foods and drinks. It has also cost me untold money and career development and maybe my first marriage.

It also led me to one of my favorite mantras: "Overcome fear and regret through meditation. Join in harmony with the universe through the kata."

After I came back from Japan, a friend asked me, "Did you get everything you went for?"

"Yes," I told him. "Everything and less."

Best wishes.

David

[Mark Uttech]

Aikido has taught me that 'moving is meditation', which is to say that aikido has become for me, the horse that I am riding through my life. As I get older, I become ever more aware of how my body moves, how I open doors and close them, how I walk without bumping into things, how I react (by turning) when I do bump into things. I remember watching the movement of sparrows on a city street and contemplating whether the movements were omote or ura movements.

In gassho,

Mark

[Al Williams]

Hi mate.

Aikido is a very practical MA for police work. Forget the locks and pins (yonkyo is very effective when done with handcuffs). The ability to move through large crowds (weapons retention) and reading body laguage (seeing the attack) have helped greatly.

It has always been my belief that good footwork is the key. You can't build a house on a poor foundation. Having balance and awarness are always going to help you on the street, regardless of tech ability. We always highlight the fact that the real dojo is out on the street.

I take enjoyment, calm and fulfillment from Aikido- nothing else compares (well almost nothing) :)

[Bronson]

It's helped me to learn from failure.

Bronson

[Lan Powers]

Using all the necesary controls in Aikido, controlling your self, controlling the uke, controlling your ukemi, the situation in general...etc. etc. has helped me to be less of the overbearing controlling person I have been at other times in my "real" life. :disgust:
I am a better person for it.
Lan

[DonMagee]

How aikido helps me in real life (tm):

- Keeps me happy. :D
- Gives me awareness of body.
- Keeps me calm (this saved me from house fire once)
- Helps me communicate with others. :p
- Increases confidance - so when walking in streets of São Paulo people don't want to mug me.
- Reduces risk of heart attack and helps avoid addictive behaviors :yuck:
- Provides social network and support. :square:

Next time someone asks if aikido works please refer them here. I value very practical aikido and have fought off some challengers in shiel establishing dojo in Africa, but that's not how aikido really works for me. I have yet to fight off a hoard of Mongolian warriors but respects if you have :-)

How does aikido work for you in your actual non-fantasy real life (tm)? Not the one importnat time you need it for self defence, but the rest of the time.

Keep it real youall,
Ali Mark G
:cool:

"your trophy is your head" - Saotome Shihan

Just to throw a monkey in the machine. How are any of these things martial?

[Nick Simpson]

Theres more to a martial art than it's 'martial' application right?

I'd say:


Gives me awareness of body.
Keeps me calm
Increases confidance

Are all blatantly martial.

Reduces risk of heart attack

An unfit 'Martial Artist' (god how I hate that term) isnt taking his training seriously (ok, disabilities and illness's aside, dont hang me for saying everyone should be an adonis ;) I'm definately not ) So thats pretty martial to me.

Keeps me happy

Happiness is important. If your not happy with your training then you should look somewhere else. If someone is happy with/because of their training, then surely they are being fulfilled by their martial training? Sounds good to me!


Personally Aikido has helped me:

1) Increase my confidence/self belief/self worth.
2) Increase my fitness.
3) Meet many great and interesting people I would never have otherwise met.
4) Find fantastic friends and a partner who likewise I wouldn't have met.
5) Keeps me calm (has been crucial when injured and bleeding heavily).
6) Stopped me drinking myself to death.
7) Ok, this is blatantly martial but: Has so far allowed me to handle myself well (both mentally and physically) in the couple of minor confrontations that have occurred post start of aikido training.
8) Knowing how silly it is to 'fight' and that the best thing to do is avoid it.
9) Made me calmer, happier, more centered, mature.
10 ) Keeps my pride and ego under control (not always mind, but thats the struggle).

Not bad eh?

[Aran Bright]

Martial Smarshal.

The most valuable thing aikido has taught me is how to be happy. How to avoid stress. How to win friends and influence people. How to walk with confidence. To enjoy being hit :grr:

And in the most practical sense in my work. I am a massage therapist and Aikido helps to (get this) blend with the energy of the person I am working with. In Australia I am the bodywork equivalent of your local mechanic. This is tough work and whilst learning how to use my weight to avoid physical injury is one benefit of Aikido. The greatest thing is being able to not take on other peoples shit :crazy: err ki.

yes I love Aikido because you learn how to deal with conflict and handle yourself in a fight but if that's all you ever learn then your missing out.

;)

[markwalsh]

Just to throw a monkey in the machine. How are any of these things martial? Monkeys rock ;)

This is a revealing question to me, thanks, and has helped be crystallize a request to the aikido community for a wider definition of what martial is.

First, I want to point out that I've trained primarily with the Chiba/Smith lineage, have been deshi for someone who taught Green Berets, have taken challenges when teaching in Africa and have snapped a few wrists (not proud), so aikivegtable, not fruity here. Also only ten years aikido so not expert opinion.

My understanding now though is that aikido is "martial" in a wider sense in terms of what it defends you against (eg Nicks drinking example). This point has been made before that the most practical aikido technique is ukemi, as most of us are more likely to fall than to fight. (After a few beers both is very possible :D

The leading causes of death among young people in the UK are suicides and car accidents, amongst all population is heart disease and cancer, and falls register as leading cause of injury for the elderly. Now aikido doesn't make you invincible, but if done with the correct sensibility offers some protection against all four of these things :cool: ( IE is anti depressant, calming/focuses attention, reduces weight, provides overall health and can be used to reduce addictive behaviors, improves balance).

Also, as suggested, the crucial factors in a physical confrontations are often not strength, speed or how hard your freaking nikyo is, but mental ones. Of the opinion that those training martial in a limited sense are setting themselves up for fall/punch.

If any one's interested in this type of thing (or just wants to kick my ass, or get drunk and fall over :-) then there's a UK Aiki Extensions event in late Feb - more soon :ai:

Back to the tress and the mat,
Mark

[Double M]

An unfolded paperclip in the hands of a martial artist or someone intent on doing harm becomes a very martial weapon. No? Everything Mark stated, then stated again, is martial. Good post, Mark.

[Basia Halliop]

But if everything is martial, then are yoga and rowing martial arts? How about wilderness camping, or dancing, or music?

Aikido has improved my life in lots of what I would call non-martial ways, though, I can agree with that -- I was reading the question just as a question of what non-martial, non-fighting related ways we had benefited from Aikido. And I also think that a number of the benefits I get from Aikido I actually could have got some other way as well, but I don't see that particularly as a criticism of Aikido. More that nearly all of us probably spend more time talking about the martialness of it than benefiting directly from that, seeing as very few of us are directly engaged in war in our real lives (look up the word martial in a dictionary, I think it's pushing it to describe it as anything that protects you in any way -- you can't just make a word mean whatever you mean. Martial = having to do with war)... And sometimes its nice to acknowledge the other benefits, which for most of us honestly effect us more, even if many of them could have been obtained from some other combination of physical, mental, etc, activities.

[markwalsh]

Ok, not big on the dictionary school of debate but if I was forced to I would

[markwalsh]

Oops - cut myself off - e-seppuku!!! :D

Ok, not big on the dictionary school of debate but if forced to by a particular vicious yonkyo would define martial as "that which defends us from harm." Also that there are levels of immediacy for this, eg street defense more immediate than heart attack defense.

By this definition, the things you mention Basia are indeed martial, but less immediately so. There is a historical dimension of course here too, so could say that was necessary too, if uncomfortable with being in same box as yoga practitioners (recommended :)

This is nothing new - I believe the samurai classified swimming as a martial art. :do:

Either way I would rather not see another AW thread go down the definitions road but would prefer to refer (say that quick) people, back to the original question if they are willing:

"How does aikido work for you in your actual non-fantasy real life (tm)? Not the one important time you need it for self defense, but the rest of the time."

[Double M]

Balsia, I think "martial" is as much in the eye of the beholder as it is a defined word. I'm not familiar with the practice of yoga or rowing but I am sure there can be something martial about each. I curious as to what you would call "non-martial ways".

[Peter Goldsbury]

How does aikido work for you in your actual non-fantasy real life (tm)? Not the one importnat time you need it for self defence, but the rest of the time.

Keep it real youall,
Ali Mark G
:cool:

"your trophy is your head" - Saotome Shihan

Hello Mark,

I am not sure that it does, in the sense that it is hard to distinguish specifically aikido elements from all the other elements that have contributed to make me the person I am now.

Until I came to Japan, the bulk of my own training, also, was from the Chiba lineage, with Minoru Kanetsuka providing the most intense input (before his cancer). But a small but intensely dedicated group trained so often and constantly at Ryushinkan, that we never considered how to apply it outside the dojo except in a strictly martial context ('what would you do if you were attacked in such and such a way?'...) and that was the only time that I have ever used aikido outside the dojo to deal with physical attacks.

My time in the US made me aware of what I would call a Puritan/Calvinistic interpretation of aikido, namely, that the benefits of training in the dojo should be tangible (and pretty immediate) outside the dojo in the way you deal with people. We did not think in this way in the UK when I first started and we virtually never think in this way in Japan now. At least this is how I understand your question (in the context of the other discussion on NVC).

At the moment we have a very good group of Japanese members, from students to dan holders (who come to train because we emphasize certain aspects that other dojos here seem to take for granted). These Japanese members have largely got over the shock of learning a Japanese martial art in Japan from foreigners and I suspect that one advantage for them is that they are learning a whole new way of looking at foreigners. And having to teach aikido to Japanese students in their own language is a major challenge for me.

I will be 63 next birthday and so one very important way that aikido works for me is that it enables me to grow old gracefully. I have to teach ukemi to my beginners and I have to do it properly, which means teaching 20-year olds how to realize the physical potential they have at their age. A kind of reverse side of of the coin is that I have seen too many high-ranking Japanese shihans, now no longer with us, whose aikido had precisely zero effect on their lifestyles. In this respect Minoru Kanetsuka (post cancer) is an awesome figure.

So, Mark, I am not saying that you are wrong to seek real tangible effects of aikido training in the way that people relate to other people. I think this is one way in which non-Japanese can make an important contribution to the heritage of aikido, for I believe it is something that (always in my highly subjective experience) that the aikido world in Japan has not considered. However, aikido is in some sense trans-cultural, but the frames and metaphors in which it is presented have to be quite sophisticated, to avoid, for example, the conclusion that if you cannot apply your aikido training outside the dojo in a tangible way, then there is something wrong with your training.

Moreover, and this is not really connected with aikido outside the dojo, just watching one session with Akuzawa-Sensei and Robert John (and, of course, reading the contributions of people like Mike Sigman, Dan Harden and also David Orange in various forums) has forced me to go right back and question all the fundamentals: what O Sensei actually knew and if and how it was transmitted.

So for me the issue at this moment in my life is not so much how I apply aikido outside the dojo, since I do not believe that the benefits can be quantified and 'applied' so easily, but how I actually do it inside the dojo. It is a major challenge to tear down and rebuild training habits formed over 30-odd years. But, and I am not in any way being condescending, I think you need to train longer to realize the full import of what I am saying here. I once asked Chiba Sensei, 'How can you be so sure that you yourself possess the truth about aikido?' I do not think he had ever been asked the question and he needed to take a deep breath before he tried to answer it.

So I would like to add a note of caution to the discussion. It is too easy for aikido people to settle into a position of 'comfortable mediocrity' (a phrase I first encountered in the Jesuits) and assume that their training is fine (they have a really great Sensei) and focus on how to apply the lessons outside the dojo.

Finally, Mark, I see that you are presently in Brazil, where there is a large and thriving aikido population. Have you considered going to Iraq or Iran? As IAF Chairman, I am often asked to give support to aikido groups in these two countries. Lebanon became an IAF member at the last congress, but it is very difficult for them to have a secure and relaxed training environment. So for aikidoists in Lebanon, the art is probably a means to help surviving from day to day. My predecessor, Giorgio Veneri, played a major role in spreading aikido in Eastern Europe and Russia. I myself am more aware of the need to look after Muslim countries in East Asia and also the Middle East.

Best wishes,

[Hanna B]

How does aikido work for you in your actual non-fantasy real life (tm)? Not the one importnat time you need it for self defence, but the rest of the time.

I never expected aikido to "work" in my daily life. However, aikido taught me that I could actually learn physical stuff and become somewhat good at it - something I never believed. Every time I try something physical and find I do not at all have difficulties in picking it up (dancing, canoeing, etc) I know I have my ten years of aikido to thank for that.

I do believe I am the same person now as when I quit training, so obviously the training in itself has not done any great difference to my personality.

[Basia Halliop]

Basia, I think "martial" is as much in the eye of the beholder as it is a defined word.

Perhaps there's just a different meaning in some Aikido (or martial arts in general) circles than the regular meaning in the wider world? I know sometimes that's the case with some words. Martial is an adjective relating to war and military... We don't have another handy adjective form of the word 'war' that I can think of, 'martial' (from the ancient god Mars, the god of war) is probably the most commonly used adjective form of 'war,' (after 'military' as an adjective). I have never seen the word used any other way in any source, any book, any conversation, any dictionary, etc, other than on this website. It's an adjective used to talk about war, soldiers, military, battle between groups, etc...

I suppose over time words do develop special definitions, though, especially within specific groups. And I guess they can be used in new metaphorical ways and stuff... It just seems like what people really mean is 'self-protection' or 'growth' or other things, in which case why not just say that instead of borrowing another word that doesn't really fit as well? But as I say, maybe there is actually an understood wider meaning of the word that I'm just not familiar with.

I don't think everything valuable about a martial art is actuallly _directly_ due to it's 'martialness', though... Which I thought was the point of this thread! Many things we do in our lives benefit us in much wider ways then you might see from a simple description of what we're doing.

[Fred Little]

....are yoga and rowing martial arts? How about wilderness camping, or dancing, or music?

Yoga has been a great aid to me in addressing and moving beyond injury and getting back on the mat. So yes, in the same way that a military hospital is, by definition, martial.

I can only imagine what would have happened at Trenton if General Washington's troops had insisted that they were soldiers, not oarsmen. Quite aside from that, rowing has other benefits which are immediately applicable to building the kind of body necessary for effective martial arts practice.

Most of my foundation of knowledge relating to knives, hatchets, saws, machetes, and related edged tools comes from Boy Scout training for wilderness camping, as does my knowledge of which woods make good kindling and which produce a solid bed of slow-burning coals.

Dancing? Ask Emmet Smith or Hector Camacho. Me? I can only dream of that level of skill on the dance floor.

Music? A major part of FBI/ATF psyops at the Branch Davidian Compound, during the US invasion of Panama, and more recently, in the US invasion of Iraq.

My .02 anyway.

FL

[Basia Halliop]

to building the kind of body necessary for effective martial arts practice

Right, good exercise and building muscles and coordination, etc, makes people better able to _then_ get out and go practice martial arts better.... But really, what doesn't? Why bother even using the word martial if it means everything from tennis (good exercise, coordination) to painting (meditation, hones observational skills, make propaganda posters)? It's like 'academic' -- when we say we're doing 'academic exercises', it's sort of understood that we aren't saying we're currently asleep after eating a nutritious meal, even though those are needed for future good academic performance. I don't care that much about the word, it just seems like a kind of pointless word if the definition is so wide it means just about everything in the world...

Why bother even having words if any word means everything?

Although you've got me on warships -- of course many throughout history were oardriven!! Propaganda and military music specifically, yes they do have martial applications, but the study of war propaganda and the psychology used is I would hope a pretty narrow subset of all art study (and probably you'd find a lot of artists who said it was fundamentally unartistic or something).

Does everything we do in life have value only based on it's martial usefulness? I find that pretty depressing.

[DonMagee]

Does everything we do in life have value only based on it's martial usefulness? I find that pretty depressing.

Only if you prefix it with the word martial.

If you said I do martial nose picking, then I would want to know what you consider martial about it. If you said you did aiki noise picking, I'd want to know what was aiki about it. We claim to do martial arts, we should be aware of what is still relevant martially in our art. If our art is about defenses against ancient attacks that never happen anymore, then is it truly still martial? or is it a historical martial art.

I"m not making claims to it's martialness (is that a word?) . I am simply challenging others to think about the meaning to them. I make the same challenge to judo and bjj guys. It's about exploring why you train, and why we call it martial arts.

[Fred Little]

Does everything we do in life have value only based on it's martial usefulness? I find that pretty depressing.

Certainly not, and that certainly would be depressing.

To the extent that I have a point, it would simply be that "martial usefulness" is a broad category that encompasses many pursuits that one may engage in for reasons that have nothing at all do with explicitly martial purposes.

Conversely, discussions of "martial usefulness" by people who restrict their training in and examination of "martial arts" to the context of regularly scheduled practice in a room with padded floors and artificial heating, cooling, and lighting have long struck me as having limited utility.

Knowing "how to fight" when you haven't a clue how to choose the ground on which you will fight, how you will get there in good enough shape to fight, how you will get out intact, nor what the desired outcome of the encounter is and how it will be effected beyond simply "winning the fight" doesn't ultimately work very well.

So ultimately, the "martial" is only "useful" precisely to the extent that it allows us the physical and psychological security needed to pursue other goals without fear of imminent destruction.

Like maybe row to a nice spot and whistle a familiar melody while fishing. If only I could whistle....

[Aran Bright]

Don and Peter,

Thank you, these have been two of the most enlightening threads I have read on AW.

Reflecting on the question of what is martial, being able to live and survive in a world of conflict and violence whether it be war, street violence or abuse with your spirit intact must surely be considered a martial way.

Thank you, I have just realise how Aikido has help me in another way.

[Basia Halliop]

I guess if I have a point, it's maybe something like -- many things can provide very significant benefits outside of their core sphere... just like in all the examples given, things that are at their base basically non-martial (painting) can have significant martial benefits and usefulness (propaganda), that goes inthe other direction too -- things that are more 'martial' can still have lots of non-martial benefits and usefulness... Same goes for academic, etc, or many other categories.

Like it's OK to say 'Studying _____ has benefited me in many ways that are very non-martial' (and it doesn't necessarily meaning that you are claiming that ____ is or isn't 'martial', which would be another question altogether). Although I do find it kind of interesting that people get so attached to that particular word.

[Basia Halliop]

If our art is about defenses against ancient attacks that never happen anymore, then is it truly still martial? or is it a historical martial art.

Well, you could certainly make a good argument that the primary modern martial arts are the proper use of an AK-47, how to build a better long-range missile, and related skills.

There seem to be many martial arts that if you asked them your question, they'd just say 'yup, you've got it exactly, it's a historical martial art". My sister did fencing all through university... Hand to hand arts seem to get different attitudes because they don't centre as obviously around technology that can go obsolete (like the sword).

[DonMagee]

I guess if I have a point, it's maybe something like -- many things can provide very significant benefits outside of their core sphere... just like in all the examples given, things that are at their base basically non-martial (painting) can have significant martial benefits and usefulness (propaganda), that goes inthe other direction too -- things that are more 'martial' can still have lots of non-martial benefits and usefulness... Same goes for academic, etc, or many other categories.

Like it's OK to say 'Studying _____ has benefited me in many ways that are very non-martial' (and it doesn't necessarily meaning that you are claiming that ____ is or isn't 'martial', which would be another question altogether). Although I do find it kind of interesting that people get so attached to that particular word.

I agree that it is ok to gain non martial benifits from martial arts. However, I see many instructors actually advertising this as the main reason to train, with the martial part a 2nd or even 4th reason.

Why train TKD?
1) Help gain flexibility
2) Gain new friends
3) Improved happyness
4) Learn morals and respect
5) Self defense.

It seems that self defense is a side effect of TKD in this case and not a primary reason to study. Many things can have a martial side effect. For example hunting can have a side effect of allowing me to defend myself with a shotgun. But I don't think I should call it martial duck hunting. I submit that the primary reason for studying a martial art should be, well martial.

I do not tell people I'm a martial artist. I study combat sports, interpersonal conflict, or how to effectively hit someone with the planet then choke them. I train solely for person fitness, and growth. I do not feel that marital arts actively describes what I do. BJJ and judo are not warlike skills. Sure they could be useful to a soldier, but they are as closely related to war as cooking is. Knowing how to do both can save your life, but that doesn't make it a modern study of war (Martial line cooks?). 99% of the benefits I get are purely non-marital. The only one even close is personal self defense. I think a more accurate description would be self defense arts.

A martial art would be a study of modern warfare. Using modern weapons, tactics, and training methods. It may contain non martial trainings to build teamwork and self confidence (bjj in the army?), personal self defense tactics, how to row a boat, etc. But at it's core will be the purpose of something martial. That something is training soldiers to fight wars.

The term however has other meaning now. And it is just as important to accept the evolution of language. Just like hacker no longer means a guy who plays with technology, a martial artist is now anyone wearing silly clothes with semi athletic or acrobatic.skill. In fact, a martial artist no longer even requires the ability to defend oneself. For example XMA is a martial art. It consists of showmanship, screaming, and a lot of cheerleader type dancing. Having watched my nephew train, I know they do not even discuses self defense, they only talk about what impresses judges and looks fancy and which songs are more popular. Is it an impressive display of fitness? Sure. But it is not a marital art in my opinion.

I think this is the reason I tend to not want to associate myself with the word martial artist. It is now as defining as say human. It could mean I'm a fraud 30 year old 10th dan soke, a professional fighter, a 80 year old man who knocks people out with my screams, a guy who can do back flips to "who let the dogs out", or a scholar studying the ways of ancient sword.

It is important to study why you train what you train, and to make sure you are getting what you want out of your training. That was the main point I was getting at by challenging the word martial. Question your motives from time to time and examine what it means to you. In the end it is probably not important what you call a martial art as much as is its why you call it a martial art.

[paw]

BJJ and judo are not warlike skills. .... (bjj in the army?)

To the best of my understanding, BJJ is the official unarmed combative system of the US Army. You may view FM 21-150 (FM 3-25.150) for the details.


Regards,

Paul

[DonMagee]

I couldn't remember if they officially trained bjj or not. I would assume though that it is more for improving the soldiers comradery and confidence then it is for practical battlefield use. I'm not saying that you wouldn't find it useful for restraining a suspect. But I would say there is a difference between police actions the military finds itself in, and a battle.

[Bronson]

But if everything is martial, then are yoga and rowing martial arts?

Yes, and I've got PROOF (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrYlNNy929Y) (for the yoga at least) ;) :D

Bronson

[DonMagee]

Yes, and I've got PROOF (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrYlNNy929Y) (for the yoga at least) ;) :D

Bronson

I will change my ways asap. This is the new BJJ.

[paw]

I couldn't remember if they officially trained bjj or not. I would assume though that it is more for improving the soldiers comradery and confidence then it is for practical battlefield use. I'm not saying that you wouldn't find it useful for restraining a suspect. But I would say there is a difference between police actions the military finds itself in, and a battle.

Don,

To the best of my understanding, it is the basis for unarmed combatives in the US Army. I'm sure a number of things were taken into account for it's selection and inclusion, and I would not be surprised if comradery and confidence were considered in the selection.

In any case, I would encourage you to read the field manual. IIRC, the manual is quite clear that in an unarmed fight on a modern battlefield, the soldier who lives is the soldier whose friends arrive on the scene first.

Regards,

Paul

[Chiburi]

What is "Martial"?
Well...business is war, and war is art, and all of it's relative.
Aikido, for me is a rhythm of my life. It's how I live. If I were to stop training today, I would die...or at least fall into severe depression and kill myself. I'm going a little extreme, because I am incapable of quitting. Even if I left my dojo, I wouldn't be able to help myself from practicing on my own.
Aikido has, quite literally, kept me sane through some low points in my life.
When I was little, one of the things I remember Kangas Sensei saying was that your dojo should be the calm lake, the peaceful center of a teeming and noisy forest.
My dojo is my sanctuary. Whenever I walk through the door and bow in, I forget everything about the outside world, and it's just the me and my mat.
How does Aikido work for me? It's how I live.

[michael_rath]

Every one has a great outlook on what aikido has done for them in the personal lives as well as their confidence in the street.
Aikido is a rough translation of "Way of Harmony". The founder of aikido took it down that path to be a little more spiritual. It doesn't make it less "martial" just because he wanted to use it for harmonizing his mind, body, and spirit. The applications of the art is what makes it a "martial art". Yes, the XMA is more about great showmanship rather then defending oneself against an attacker. I think that could be said for many of the TKD and Karate dojos and dojangs. They are more competitive. However, XMA is based on several martial arts that have been used effectively in the past to defend the person using it.
The techniques to defend yourself are in the XMA format, it's just a manner of how you train and what you train for. The Army is being taught the practical applications of martial arts (which is the real manner of a martial art to use for war) but they use it to fight the enemy in very hostile type environments. What do I care what their being taught in the hand-to-hand arena any how. They will not use it as much as their assault rifle. I just pray our military is training them in that manner a little more. :D

I've trained in aikido since I was 4 years old and I use it a large base of many of the practical techniques I use. I also cross train in other martial arts, such as nin-po, Krav Maga, JFJKD, Muay Thai, Kali, Silat, and many other arts that have practical uses. These arts were all designed for battle (some would even argue that Yoga was a great foundation to the Shoalin Kung-Fu which arguably spread out to make the rest of the martial arts) so does yoga have "martial" applications? Obviously somebody thought so. ;). Rowing, I've martial arts that are based on using an ore. So, many things can be used with "martial" intentions. Dancing, can some one say Caporeira? Or even Arnis? People would even say that some things done in wu shu are dance like. Does that make it less then an martial art? No, the intention of the use is what makes things an art of war. A solider and a trained martial artist (or just a very violent person) can make an ash tray a weapon of war (or battle).

I can use aikido on the street more effectively then TKD. That is my personal use though. I trained longer and harder on aikido and the "real" uses of the style then I did with TKD. Yet a solid side kick has saved my neck before. It wasn't just the side kick it was the feint kick that made the kick possible.

People think just because schools use forms that they are not effective on the street. Not true. If you use the forms for what the originators used the for (fitness, flow, and flexibility) then practice the actual practical applications of what you've learned you should be able to use it effectively. People just want a quick fix now a days and don't want to spend the time it took them in training to reach their goals. That's society for you. :crazy: There are type of fighting or "martial arts" out there that will give people what they need. Such as krav maga, haganna, and other "reality" systems. These are effective, but there is nothing your going to find that isn't actual styles.

Your mind and the way you think is what makes things just practical means or martial means. Some study anatomy to learn how to heal ie; doctors, nurses, etc. Others use the same study to find the weakness in the human body so they learn how to hit the body just right to rupture the spleen. That sounds like a martial way of looking at things. If you go by the actual definition any way. evileyes

Michael

[Mike Galante]

Mars rules Aires and co rules Scorpio.
Male aries will kill you, chop off your head.
Female Scorpio will sting you and poison you, the higher aspect of Scorpio is the transformation of the lower snake/scorpion into the mythical phoenix bird of spiritual transcendence. It overcomes it lower nature and rises to the heavens. Scorpio, when positive can be a great healer. they can take disease and bring it to health. Just like usheba, he takes hatred and turns it into love.
Mars is exhalted in Capricorn where its passion and impetuosity are tamed and cooled and directed and organized. Mars is happy in fire, water and earth, it is not happy in the intellectual air.
Martians are not intellectuals, they get too bored too fast. They like action.
They take the ideas from the intellectuals and act upon them.
Mars will listen to no one but the King. They are not about the sacrifice their lives for a lesser rank.
All the BEst,

[Mark Freeman]

Martians are not intellectuals, they get too bored too fast. They like action.


Out of the unusual post above I had to clip this section as standing out :hypno:

Have I slipped onto another forum, am I alone in thinking that either the author is having a laugh or they actually believe that this statement is somehow grounded in reality?

Michele, please put me right :crazy:

regards

Mark

[SeiserL]

Mars is happy in fire, water and earth, it is not happy in the intellectual air. Martians are not intellectuals, they get too bored too fast. They like action.
They take the ideas from the intellectuals and act upon them.
Mars will listen to no one but the King. They are not about the sacrifice their lives for a lesser rank.
Some people are fighters. Others are lovers. Some of us are both.

As a Scorpio, I am both an intellectual and very action oriented.

Very few things in life are mutual exclusive either/or.

Don't make assumptions about real people on the real streets. You will be surprised.

[Mark Freeman]

As a Scorpio, I am both an intellectual and very action oriented.

Lynn, I hope this doesn't mean you are a Martian! ;)

regards,

Mark,
Born 25th October so I am a scorpio with sceptical rising :D

[mriehle]

Lynn, I hope this doesn't mean you are a Martian!

I declare myself proudly Martian. And Venusian. And a child of Mercury and Saturn.

<breaking into song>
I am a child, of the universe...
</breaking into song>

Born October 26 in the Year of the Rat.
I'm told I'm both a classic scorpio and a classic rat.

I hope people mean that in a Good Way. :eek: :p :cool: :D

(The best I can tell this mean I'm supposed to have the sex drive of a satyr and make money as easily as breathing. Supposed to.)

[SeiserL]

Lynn, I hope this doesn't mean you are a Martian! ;)
Year of the tiger.
Month of the scorpion.
Day of the warlock.

Of course I am a martian.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Michael Reis wrote:

The Army is being taught the practical applications of martial arts (which is the real manner of a martial art to use for war) but they use it to fight the enemy in very hostile type environments. What do I care what their being taught in the hand-to-hand arena any how. They will not use it as much as their assault rifle. I just pray our military is training them in that manner a little more

The U.S. Army today is transforming significantly and rapidly the way it trains soldiers for combat. In the cold war we concentrated on the large battle...tanks and armor with overwhelming firepower and manuever from a distance.

Today, we are finding that we depend on the individual more and more. It is interesting to see the evolution of technology back to the basic warrior. The individual soldier on the battlefield.

Today you would find soldiers training more in Modern Army Combatives, (BJJ for the most part), lots of stick time with his rifle in various shooting positions and also training in escalation of force. We are becoming more like the Marines in the sense that "every soldier is a infantrymen first".

We are finding that it is important to be strong and tough and to appear unstoppable, but also be able to show kindness, compassion and geniune concern.

Are we there yet? No, but we are evolving back to the roots of Budo, IMO.

You are correct that what we tend to practice in martial applications is traditionally applied in a narrow bandwidth to train for max effectiveness, but we are finding out also that we must train for a more complete spectrum at the same time.

It all boils down to time and priorities.

For civilians there isn't really a need to be concerned about all the stuff, especially when the best martial application might be avoidance or risk reduction.

What is most important for civilians is learning, much as we are finding is valuable in the military, to be good people and citizens, to watch our health, to learn to be team players and cooperate...to develop character, competence, compassion, and courage.

These are the best reasons IMO to study martial arts!

[michael_rath]

I agree with the turning of the tide of our military evolution. But I don't expect (nor do I want) to see our soldiers running in with a bow and arrows or a sword to take care of business. :D I'm not complaining about the military at all either. I respect them for everything they give us.

The point I was trying to make (obviously badly) was that teaching civilians practical self-defense is necessary for their personal growth and courage (or confidence in themselves). We are threatened here on our own soil by the criminal threat. We can't ask the soldiers or police to be every where at once and I may need to defend myself and my family against some scum bag who decided to think he was going to take an old past time of ancient rulers to take whatever they want. So I'll have to take up the old past time of the servants and fight back against my threat to let them know if you come here you will lose. :grr: :D

Avoidance is keen (and best for any situation) but that and only reducing the risk at times is just not enough. Thank you for the response and I respect what you shared.

Michael

[Kevin Leavitt]

All this is philosophically speaking.....but....

IMO, soldiers don't give you anything, that view of things says that military is separate and distinct from everything else. We all participate in acts of war as a world. If it is through our loved ones in the military, the ones that go and never return. The tax dollars that we pay, the officials that we elect, the oil and gas that we use mindlessly...the things we buy in the stores....the every day choices that we make.

Do not want to get political, but I think we need to consider sometimes the whole perspective on things. There is much more at stake and many, many third order effects in what we do, think, say.

Anyway, I think that the real enemy is not the guy that might mug us on the streets, or the bar fight we might get into, but Fear that is the real enemy.

Courage and bravery are interesting subjects.

If we live our lives in fear of what may happen and gear all our actions around mitigating that risk. Say like some of those wacky survivalist (on the extreme end of things), have we really won? Or did we become so consumed with "not losing" that we did not realize our potential happiness?

Cowards build walls, fences, and arsenals to keep from losing. Heroes go out and embrace the enemy and show him another option. Heroes also inspire people to action in a positive manner.

It is good to have the tools and skills to protect ourselves from things, but how do we use those tools for the better of ourselves and our enemy?

We may pop him in the face today, kill him, but he will be back tomorrow or prey on someone weaker, or someone else will replace him. How does violence ever solve the real problem?

I don't think it does.

A while back we had a pretty good discussion on a thread about the issue of avoidance.

This is a tricky subject....

If you confront violence with violence it doesn't necessarily fix the problem. If you avoid the problem it doesn't necessarily fix the problem either.

There is a delimea!

How do you deal with a school yard bully? If you beat him up and humiliate him, does it solve the problem? If you avoid him does it solve the problem?

Again, I know this is all philosophical, but I would like to think that aikido is a model designed to provide us with a much deeper skill set than overwhelming skill and firepower to subdue our enemy physically.

[Avery Jenkins]

How do you deal with a school yard bully? If you beat him up and humiliate him, does it solve the problem? If you avoid him does it solve the problem?



Kevin, love your posts. Always thought provoking, and you come from a background that Makes It Real.

I remember dealing with bullies in my youth. Twice. Both times I called them out. Both times, I pretty much got the snot kicked out of me. Subsequently, I was left alone, I think from the primitive return on investment calculation performed by most bullies, that is, I was just too much trouble to pick on.

That said, I love it that aikido offers a third option between submission and NHB. Wish I'd known it when I was 13.

Avery

[statisticool]

Cowards build walls, fences, and arsenals to keep from losing.

So the people in UFC-ish events are all cowards, because they fight within a built wall, as well as fight so there is always a winner?

[Thalib]

All this is philosophically speaking.....but....

-x-cut-x-

Again, I know this is all philosophical, but I would like to think that aikido is a model designed to provide us with a much deeper skill set than overwhelming skill and firepower to subdue our enemy physically.

I think I'm on the same wavelength with you on this one.

If we are talking about safety and security, it's not going out there and be a hero or going out there to be the winner of some sort of competition whether it is in real or imagined

[Kevin Leavitt]

Justin Wrote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Cowards build walls, fences, and arsenals to keep from losing.

So the people in UFC-ish events are all cowards, because they fight within a built wall, as well as fight so there is always a winner?

What is your point? I am not tracking on this. To me it appears that you have once again taken something I have said out of context and tried to turn it into something else? Please explain what you mean, as I don't see the correalation you are drawing between UFC and a philosophical post I made above.

As far as i am concerned people in the UFC are highly skilled althletes and martial artist who do something that they are passionate about. What does this have to do fear and cowardess?

[Kevin Leavitt]

Iriawan wrote:

If we are talking about safety and security, it's not going out there and be a hero or going out there to be the winner of some sort of competition whether it is in real or imagined

No to me it is about having a set of values and convictions and standing by them. Things such as all men are created equal and believing in the dignity and self worth of all people. Names Ghandi, MLK, and a few others come to mind.

Marching down the street in Birmingham...now that is getting real on the streets!

[SeiserL]

... to me it is about having a set of values and convictions and standing by them.
IMHO, conviction is true internal strength.

"It isn't the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog."

[Guilty Spark]

Hey Kevin, great post!
Giving me a lot to think about.
I'm still experimenting/exploring non-aggression and non-violence. Taking it and seeing how it can apply to me as a soldier and what I do. I'm not sure how much I can say on here but I was in a situation where I feel Aikido and the exploring of fear and stress actually enabled me to save someones life. I was confronted with someone doing something they shouldn't and about to pull the trigger and kill them but I recalled reading about fear and how when your scared you tense up and get tunnel vision. I did my best to relax, breathe and take the whole situation into perspective and I was able to control my fear and find an alternative way of controlling the situation.
Still, when I think of what can solve a fight I hear my old (army) instructor.
The only way you're going to solve a fight is VIOLENCE VIOLENCE VIOLENCE.
It still has a lot of truth to it even considering my above example.
Picture this scenario I went through.

If you confront violence with violence it doesn't necessarily fix the problem. If you avoid the problem it doesn't necessarily fix the problem either.

There is a dilemma!
You're driving up a road in a convoy when all of a sudden you feel a knot in your stomach. Your not sure why or what it is but something is wrong. All of a sudden you here a loud thump and look to your right and see a puff of smoke, a second later an RPG flies 5 feet in front of your truck. More RPGs start to sail out from the treeline and machine guns start firing off at you, tracers pinging around. Your convoy is in an ambush.

Easily a situation where violence is the only answer. We returned fire and tried to create as much violence on our end to keep their heads down long enough for us and the trucks we were protecting to get out of the kill zone. I don't see how violence could be avoided in that situation. I think the same goes for fights. I'll try to avoid a physical fight as much as possible up to and including backing down or walking away and looking like "a wimp". If someone crosses the line and assaults me then I'm going to try and use violence to overwhelm them and catch them off guard and put them under control. I argue with myself is it better to absolutely control them so they don't have a chance to hurt me or should I do my best not to hurt them while defending myself even if it means I could get seriously injured in trying to keep "us both safe".

How do you deal with a school yard bully? If you beat him up and humiliate him, does it solve the problem? If you avoid him does it solve the problem?
I think, perhaps sadly, in most cases of this a school yard bully needs to be confronted and "beaten up" before the problem stops. Avoiding them only elects more punishment.

And Justin you DID completely take Kevins comment out of context, were you seriously curious about his comment or did you know full well what he meant but tried to twist his words?

[Kevin Leavitt]

Hey Grant....thanks for sharing.

How do you apply aikido principles of non-violence and harmony in a combat situation as a soldier?

It is challenging for sure, however, I don't think impossible.

I think we have to think in a much bigger perspective than the immediate threat we face.

Aikido at it's best in harmony and balance. Harmony and balance come from the alignment and attunement of mind, body, and spirit.

I will have to go back and dust off my Mushashi a little bit, but I think he hit it on the head. A warrior must be complete. He must make the appropriate decisions at the right time with all the input and information that he has.

How clear that information is to the warrior depends on perspective. You have to prepare yourself and lead a balanced life. Train hard, and make sure you are well prepared, mentally, spiritually, and physically.

If you are distracted, mentally, physically, and spiritually tired you cannot make clear decisions.

If you did not take care or your relationship with your spouse back home properly, then when you are downrange things will be worse. You may be worrying about this as you proceed down the road on your patrol, you may miss that vital piece of information that is between life and death.

Budo is not always about facing direct violence and being able to resolve that issue, but a much bigger once that is much more influencial and long lasting.

I think that there were many, many things that les to the actual engagement of violence that occurred, how can we expect to peacefully resolve it in a matter of seconds or minutes all the time?

I think Budo prepares us in a much greater way for peace and harmony than all the small battles and struggles we face.

I think there is much in Mushasi's writings to ponder concerning this.

[mriehle]

I think, perhaps sadly, in most cases of this a school yard bully needs to be confronted and "beaten up" before the problem stops. Avoiding them only elects more punishment.


I basically have no problem with the rest of your post. When you are faced with unreasoned, unreasoning violence, sometimes (usually?) your only option is to return it in kind. Even then, though, it's really about surviving and stopping the violence rather than vengeance (or should be).

But schoolyard bullies are a different situation, IME. If you beat up the bully, you'll generally just be faced with another - possibly several - bullies. Basically, you enter into a bully competition. No one ever wins in such bully competitions. Sooner or later, you get your head handed to you.

But I have several students who've dealt with bullies and ended the problem, at least of the bully beating them up.

The two cases where I know the story (I just found out about at least one other case and I don't know the whole story and probably never will) my students didn't beat anybody up. They simply foiled an attempted attack. The bully didn't get hurt, neither did my students. But the bully was embarassed.

Even then, though, the embarassment wasn't about being "beaten". It was about getting himself into a situation which he didn't control. They're all about control.

In both cases where I actually know what happened, bullies (multiple in one case) attacked, my student simply turned out of the way of the attack and the bullies fell down. Okay, yes, it was kokyu nage - sort of. The bullies didn't get hurt, so their friends wouldn't intervene on their behalf.

You know, on some level, this is really where we should be thinking when we're thinking self defense. In a conflict involving a knife or gun or really any other attempt to seriously injure or kill you, there is a lot of luck involved and you can only ever hope to reduce the luck factor, not eliminate it. Moreover, most of us never have to deal with such an attack and if we do we're likely to have to do things we aren't going to like.

But the drunk at a party. Or the schoolyard bully. These are credible threats for real people. More than "are my skills adequate to the task", is the question, "will my skills make the situation worse".

[Guilty Spark]

Hey Michael,

I'm really surprised at your point of view on bullies.
Maybe it's due to overruns personal experience and how we judge those but in almost ALL of my experience with bullies almost all the time walking away or not standing up for ones self physically only resulted in further abuse.
It seems like an Aikido myth about the whole embarrass said individual without hurting them and they miraculously.

But schoolyard bullies are a different situation, IMO. If you beat up the bully, you'll generally just be faced with another - possibly several - bullies.

Disagree. In my experience bullies are often the alpha male type with a bunch of submissive guys following him around. Any time I've seen a bully get beaten up (or have confronted the guy myself) never have I seen his friends jump in or become bullies themselves. Think about it. The guy their intimidated by just got beaten by someone, chances are their not going to try and take the alpha male spot. If anything, which I've seen plenty, the bullies followers will almost before the other guy.
Some people are born followers and their just doing what their hardwired to do-follow.

[mriehle]

walking away or not standing up for ones self physically only resulted in further abuse.
It seems like an Aikido myth about the whole embarrass said individual without hurting them and they miraculously.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't say "walk away" or "not stand up for yourself". Just don't beat 'em up. My students who've successfully dealt with bullies simply dealt with the attack without violence. The bully didn't get beat up, but neither did my student.

So, in at least one case, said bully wound up suspended from school and my student suffered no repercussions whatsoever.

Beating them up is only one way to remove their control of the situation.

Disagree. In my experience bullies are often the alpha male type with a bunch of submissive guys following him around. Any time I've seen a bully get beaten up (or have confronted the guy myself) never have I seen his friends jump in or become bullies themselves. Think about it.

I have. Repeatedly. More often than not.

In fact, I've seen a simple fight turn into six guys ganging up on one kid because he dared to throw a punch in a fight.

The guy their intimidated by just got beaten by someone, chances are their not going to try and take the alpha male spot. If anything, which I've seen plenty, the bullies followers will almost before the other guy.
Some people are born followers and their just doing what their hardwired to do-follow.

Yeah, I've heard this line as well. Then I got beat up by the "followers". I've known other people where it turned out the same way.

But, worse, I've seen the situation where someone has beat up a bully and he goes off and whines to his big brother who is sure that his little brother couldn't have started the fight. Wanna guess how that turned out?

The key is to take away their control of the situation. Beating them up is one way, but I contend it's not the best way. It certainly isn't the only way. Properly applied Aikido turns out to be, IME, a superior approach. In an ironic twist, it really does work best if you successfully defend yourself without hurting the bully.

I picture the conversation when he goes to complain to the big brother:

Bully: "He beat me up!"

Brother: "You don't look beat up. Are you trying get me in trouble?"

Bully: "But..."

Brother: "What? Quit bothering me."

Or it could just be that because you don't get into the game of who can beat who up that nobody feels like you're worth their time after that. Whatever it is, it seems to work.

[nalu]

Interesting topic.
In my area there has been a large push to address the issues of bullies and bullying. The direction I have taken is to promote the mindset that bullying is actually a sign of weakness. The bully never (rarely) picks on someone stronger than themselves. When this idea is presented to a classroom, they can begin to see that if bullying is truly weak, then bullies are weak, hopefully leading to, "do I need to be afraid of someone who is that weak?". The idea being to promote the classroom mentality, that if they all stand up to address the issue of bullying, they can control the bullies.
Basically, everyone wants to win or be a winner, I believe the secret is to teach what winning and real strength are. Is it that "strong" to pick on someone weaker than you. Of course this is just the baseline premise, but it has been well received in school systems here. I also tie in the principles of Aikido and how they can contribute to conflict and such.

My apologies for the lengthy post
Thanks
Mike

[SlowLerner]

I think the problem here is a lot of people think reality is sport fighting, they don't understand real violence.

In reality you are going to have the odds stacked hard against you. You can train all you want at what ever flavour of the month martial art and you will just get beaten by someone who cheats with weapons or numbers.

Fighting is like trying to put a fire out with petrol. It just doesn't work in reality. You will either get your ass kicked or go to jail. There is no 'line' that gets crossed where you decide you can finally use your lethal martial art.
It's a continuum of escalation that you are either contributing to, or you aren't.
As if you are going to get the other guy to 'tap out' and he will shake your hand and say well done. He will just get you back later and 'cheat'.

What is required are techniques and strategy to allow you to escape. What is the point of jiyu waza? Is it to look cool and beat up a bunch of people at once? Fighting one person doesn't 'work' let alone a whole group of people.
I used to feel like I had failed when I didn't throw someone with a technique. But it's only failure if you consider that the goal. The goal should not be to fight and beat the other person, but to not get hit or grabbed yourself.

I used to question why Aikido doesn't have 1 on 1 randori, but now i believe it's because it doesn't make sense when you consider it this way. It doesn't make sense to test Aikido against other styles, because their rules dictate that you have to fight and beat them.

[SlowLerner]

I think the problem here is a lot of people think reality is sport fighting, they don't understand real violence.

Just want to clarify, when I say 'here' I'm not referring to the people on this thread, but the topic itself. Sorry but I meant to post this elsewhere.
:o