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Scott_in_Kansas
08-31-2001, 04:06 PM
Everytime I watch one of those No Holds Barred Fighting Tournaments (UFC, Pride, Extreme Fighting) I always wonder how a seasoned aikido practitioner would do. A skilled aikido practioner should be able to defend against type of attack reasonable well and a master should be able to fend of even skilled attackers quite easily. So why haven't we seen one?

I know that as aikido practitioners we use our art for self-defense so seeking a fight is kind of against our creed, but I get frustrated when I see all these mixed martial artists claiming their fighting system is supreme and that the traditional arts are outdated and ineffective. Most of these fighters aren't even martial artists but wrestlers with a few months of boxing training. Are they more effective than an aikido practioner with years/decades of training under his belt?

Anybody got an opinion on this?

Scott in Kansas

Chuck Clark
08-31-2001, 05:41 PM
Welcome to the list Scott.

This type of spectacle has nothing to do with budo practice. I, and none of the quality budo practitioners that I know would have anything to do with such nonsense. This type of activity is designed to make money for the promoters and that's about it.

Regards,

michaelkvance
08-31-2001, 08:05 PM
It's not the money that really disturbs me, although that is crass. It's the glorification of violence that these things entail. Aikido is the way to end all conflict, not enshrine it as a form of entertainment.

In gassho,

m.

Scott_in_Kansas
08-31-2001, 08:55 PM
Micheal/Chuck,

I couldn't agree more. I know that it is not our way and that it is meaningless violence. But would either of you agree that an aikidoka pinning an opponent with ikkyo in a matter of seconds at the UFC would advance the art?

Wouldn't it at least increase support for the art?

I think that an astute aikidoka could do just that.

Respecfully,

Scott in Kansas

Chuck Clark
08-31-2001, 11:01 PM
The fact that we don't take part "advances" the art more.

Kami
09-01-2001, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by Scott_in_Kansas
But would either of you agree that an aikidoka pinning an opponent with ikkyo in a matter of seconds at the UFC would advance the art?
I think that an astute aikidoka could do just that.
Respecfully,
Scott in Kansas

KAMI : An astute aikidoka wouldn't enter in a fight with rules prepared by other fighters...:rolleyes:
UFC was created by Rorion Gracie, of Brazilian JiuJitsu and the rules heavily favor grappling arts.
Also, if you want to do painting, you should know the rules of painting and prepare for it; if you want to do carpentry, you should know the rules of carpentry and prepare for it; if you want to write, you should know the rules of writing and prepare for it. If you want to do anything, you should know its rules and prepare for it. If you do want to try UFC, there's nothing wrong with it : go for it but study its rules and prepare well for it.
Why don't you see UFC fighters compete in an Aikido tournament, UNDER AIKIDO RULES? (Yes, there are competitive forms of Aikido!)
They would say that's stupid! They do not prepare for it; do not study its rules; aren't prepared to fight, WITHOUT GROUNDWORK OR GRAPPLING! In the same way, it would be stupid for Aikido practitioners to go to the UFC, like lambs to a slaughter, without a specific training, DIFFERENT from what they usually do.
You should remember also that to participate in a competitive sport, you should train heavily, including boxing, muay thai, BJJ, Grappling and weight lifting (have you noted how big and muscled they all are? Real gorillas most of them!) You will not have time for studying Aikido as an art, just the things that are important for UFC competition. Your life will be short (competition athletes usually have short competitive lifes). Even if death or serious injury is not very common (most of the blood in UFC meetings come from broken skin, mouth and nose and those are not "kyusho"points...:D ), age will rapidly bring slowest reflexes, less strength, less stamina. This happens with all competitive sports, like boxing, tennis, judo, et al...
Aikido competition, like judo, has eliminated all dangerous techniques, in order to allow its introduction. Aikido, to be really "efficient in the streets" :rolleyes: , should provoke trauma, maim and kill ; the techniques should be changed; you should train more atemi; and, most of all, you should condition your body like an athlete does : hypertraining it! Not exactly what the Founder intended Aikido to be, an harmonious art to unite the World ;)
And finally, remember that Aikido was intended for all and involves many reasons for practicing, not just self-defense or competition. Competition will always be for a few people and, excuse me, I really don't see that participating in a bloody arena is anything else than a show of machismo and definitely wouldn't advance THE ART!
And, by the way, the UFC craze is passing away like every other craze...Perhaps, it's time to get back to our ART, not our "punching and kicking" competitive sport;)
My 2 cents opinion
Best

ronin_10562
09-01-2001, 06:25 AM
Let me state that I agree with the philosophy of Aikido, and the belief that competition is wrong for the Aikikai. But I think that individuals should be able to test themselves. I'm not saying they should make a career in competition but do it as a one time test of themselves.
As for the rules they seem to allow almost anything I don't see an aikidoka at a disadvantage under the rules they have.
There is a difference between competing for ego reasons and that of a test of oneself.

MikeE
09-01-2001, 11:41 AM
I really don't think Aikido would work well in an NHB scheme. (Not from an effectiveness standpoint, but a money making one) Promoters want 2 gladiators to bludgeon or grapple to submission or unconsciousness. I teach at a crosstraining school and I get a chance now and then to open spar. The NHB fighter will try to quickly close the gap with kicks punches or takedowns. An Aikidoka will keep proper ma-ai, which doesn't play well into a NHB fighters game. Plus, irimi and tenkan movements are very surprising to an NHB fighter.

What happens alot with me is that the NHB person stands there and gets frustrated not seeing any openings and winds up throwing themselves at me. Game over.

Aikido is patient...NHB is not.

guest1234
09-01-2001, 03:02 PM
That's similar to what a friend once told me, who does Aikido at a place shared with Karate and Ju Jitsu, when they got into a discussion among themselves what would happen if you had Ju Jitsu vs Aikido: they decided it would turn into the Ju Jitsu guy chasing the Aikidoka around the room trying to get him to the ground, with the Aikidoka avoiding his attack and keeping ma ai...:rolleyes:

Jim ashby
09-01-2001, 03:17 PM
Aikidoka not capable of groundwork! Does the term suwari waza ring a bell? BTW Coleen are you in the UK yet?
Have fun

MikeE
09-01-2001, 04:07 PM
Jim,

Suwari waza probably wouldn't be the best against a BJJ person. Since they may very well attack you with their legs and pull you into the guard. For a skilled BJJ person this is a very powerful position. The minute you try to move they will be attacking your arms and neck in an attempt to upset your center with their hips and legs. (Make you worry about the attacks to the arms and neck, while their major purpose is to position you for a turnover, leg sweep, or a whole myriad of submissions.

Just my opinion. Take it for what its worth.

mj
09-01-2001, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Jim ashby
Aikidoka not capable of groundwork! Does the term suwari waza ring a bell?

Jim, aikidoka are NOT capable of groundwork.
(Newaza)
Of course, neither are boxers, kick boxers etc. It doesn't detract from their ability, but it certainly means that they will NOT win a fight on the ground against a groundwork fighter.
However, suwari-waza will give aikidoka an advantage on the ground against an opponent who does not know groundwork.
I would like to add that I agree with the fact that arts come and go. Arts, lately, seem designed to beat the last art that was the fad.
See where you are weak, strengthen, move on.
Personally I think aikido is for people who have decided not to fight. For whatever reason.
Groundwork is not very aiki, until you can do it.
Then it IS aiki. But you still have to learn it to do it. ;) Get ready for pain and exhaustion if you do...:D

Jim23
09-01-2001, 08:01 PM
These kinds of dicussions are really pointless in a forum like this.

Theoretically, if an effective aikidoka were to take on a fighter from another style, the aikidoka would be the winner - we are ready for anything!!

So then, why can't an aikidoka quickly lead/throw/pin/submit/etc. someone in the UFC? Who cares what they train in or for, or how strong they are! They want to strike? Take you down? It really makes little difference, does it? Why play their game?

However, that's not really how the world works.

The argument that we don't train for UFC-style fighting is pretty weak. Doesn't aikido make you ready for anything?

Many questions ... no real answers.

Jim23

mj
09-01-2001, 08:11 PM
Wow!!!!
Jim23...have you converted????
:D
Starting to feel it?
Starting to get the :triangle::circle: :square: ?
I agree, but the fact is...kidoka cannot do groundwork.
This is not to say they could not adapt.
And of course, groundwork is not much good if lots of people are kicking you in the head (probably:eek: )
But groundwork is an important part of everyday fighting, one on one.
But remember, this is being said by someone who used to do newaza, but now does aikido.

Scott_in_Kansas
09-01-2001, 09:43 PM
To KAMI: I agree with Walter. There is nothing in the UFC or PRIDE rules that would hinder an aikidoka.

Also, do you think that the aikido art is so WEAK that we couldn't stand up to a BJJ artist or a steroid pumping wrestler? O' Sensei didn't seem to have any problem against much larger opponents. Would O'Sensei have gotten his butt kicked at a UFC style "demonstration"?

And speaking of demonstrations, I've seen video of Aikido masters holding "open" demonstrations where they get non-aikido practioners to attack (or attempt to attack) them. Wouldn't the UFC be considered just another demonstration to an aikido master? I'm not trying to be facetious here, just curious why there is such a willingness to "prove the art." Such demonstrations where common in the martial arts 20-30 years ago.

Keep the comments coming guys. This thread is getting interesting.

Respectfully,

Scott in Kansas

guest1234
09-02-2001, 12:09 AM
Hi James, not in the UK yet, plans were postponed:(

As for the stories about demonstrations, one name I think many will bring to mind is the sucess of Tohei Sensei in Hawaii. I read today his account of that first visit, when plans had been made for challenges after he'd accepted, and then they told him of the plan. He considered not going, but felt he'd already committed himself, and said "I am going in order to teach the principle of non-dissention. So I cannot challenge anyone to a match. If they want me to fight with professional wrestlers, let them challenge me. Master Ueshiba would permit me to defend myself."

I think there is a difference between demonstrating your art, and choking someone silly to win a contest.:rolleyes:

Kami
09-02-2001, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by Scott_in_Kansas
To KAMI: I agree with Walter. There is nothing in the UFC or PRIDE rules that would hinder an aikidoka.

KAMI : As you wish. Go there and try...:rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scott_in_Kansas
[B] Also, do you think that the aikido art is so WEAK that we couldn't stand up to a BJJ artist or a steroid pumping wrestler?

KAMI : No, I don't. Where did you read that?
I said that for specific conditions, you must have specific training. As in judo, if you go participate in judo contest with rules...

Originally posted by Scott_in_Kansas
O' Sensei didn't seem to have any problem against much larger opponents. Would O'Sensei have gotten his butt kicked at a UFC style "demonstration"?



KAMI : There's no account of O-Sensei participating in a free-for-all with other fighters. There are a lot of stories about "demonstrations", generally with people being surprised by O-Sensei's techniques, little known in those days. And about your question concerning O-Sensei being "butt kicked", if he didn't prepare specifically for that, yes. Perhaps that's why he wisely never did it.As Jigoro Kano, Gichin Funakoshi and many other masters ;)

Originally posted by Scott_in_Kansas
And speaking of demonstrations, I've seen video of Aikido masters holding "open" demonstrations where they get non-aikido practioners to attack (OR ATTEMPT TO ATTACK) them. Wouldn't the UFC be considered just another demonstration to an aikido master?


KAMI : Demonstrations and competitions are two different things.As you said, "ATTEMPT TO ATTACK..." An UFC or NHB can't be considered "demonstration" for an aikido master. Also, what do you mean by a master? An old practitioner, full of wisdom and perfect technique? or a young competitive athlete, full of stamina and resistence, competing BY HIS RULES and so unafraid of dying or even serious crippling? You see, the nemesis of martial ARTISTS is that they can't use all their skill in a NHB competition. You can't go to a judo competition and use strikes, punches and kicks (you'd be punished and lose the fight); you can't go to a karate competition and use throws, grappling or ne waza (you'd be punished and lose the fight); and so on, and so on... "No Holds barred" competition and Ultimate Fighting Championships aren't so "no holds barred" as you think. They have their own set of rules and that's that. Another thing should be remembered : physical conditioning. Aikidoka, GENERALLY, are poorly conditioned and have no stamina for a prolonged competition. Boxers, judoka, NHB and UFC fighters ARE. In their training, aikidoka defend themselves against very poor punches, kicks and strikes with weapons. Try to defend yourselves against good p/k men or against a weapon brandished by specialists (Kendoka, Kenjutsuka or Eskrimadores). Their speciality...:)

Originally posted by Scott_in_Kansas
I'm not trying to be facetious here, just curious why there is such a willingness to "prove the art." Such demonstrations where common in the martial arts 20-30 years ago.

KAMI : I guess you were meaning "why there isn't such a willingness". In that case, I believe it is because of the reasons I stressed. There's no problem with any aikidoka that wishes to participate in an UFC (there may be problems with their aikido organizations, but there's no rule in Aikido forbidding that. Even the famous quote from O-Sensei :"There's no competition in Aikido" has been explained uncorrectly translated at this very List). And if you think there's no need for any special preparation, you're in for a surprise...Please, do go! Even in the case of competitive Aikido, there may be good conditioning but still the rules and prohibitions are very different and you should prepare intensively for that.

Originally posted by Scott_in_Kansas
Keep the comments coming guys. This thread is getting interesting.
Respectfully,
Scott in Kansas

KAMI : I believe they will. :D
Best regards

mariko nakamura
09-02-2001, 08:58 AM
I have to disagree with some of the opinions that have been shared here. I would like to say that we spend alot of time defending ourselves from a wide variety of "ground work" or grappling style attacks in our dojo and most of them are very painful and very effective.
It was also said that we generally defend ourselves against poor attacks. I'd also like to say that most of the Aikidoka I know have all studied Karate,Judo and Kendo in school. So the attacks are very professional annd very real.
We also learn that every chance to fight should be thought of as really a chance to practice. However competition is discouraged not because of fighting or money, but because of ego. The competition to be the best. Everybody wants to be the best right? I know I want to be, but my ego, unfortunately is pretty big. Hopefully someday I will be rid of it because sometimes its a pretty discouraging factor, especially when I see these guys fighting eachother on T.V. and I'm pretty sure I could take em out real quick right?
I think that it would be better for our way of life, that we as Aikidoka are striving to live by, to stay away from these competitions and pay them no attention at all.

mj
09-02-2001, 11:00 AM
Well said!
Wanting to be the best is just part of our growing (up).

Irony
09-03-2001, 01:10 AM
Just look at the question: Why haven't any Aikidoka competed in NHB events?

So obviously none have. Why? I doubt the Gracies or whoever would deny any artist the right to compete; they're all to eager to exhibit their style's "dominance." So we must assume that none have competed because A) none wanted to, or B) they did not pass whatever qualifying rounds or whatnot that NHB competitions must require. I'll assume "A", because of course Aikido rules too much for "B"... :)

So no high-ranking aikidoka wish to participate in such an event. I think Aikido is a unique art in one way because by the time your Aikido becomes "perfect" you're probably as old as O'Sensei grew to be, and too wise to bother with such foolishness. Yes, a successful demonstration of Aikido may bolster the art's image in the eyes of people who watch NHB, but all you'll end up getting a lot of mixed martial art styles guys who come in to the dojo wanting to fight and maybe learn "that cool flip thing that guy did."

It seemed to me that O'Sensei, from what I read, accepted those challenges less out of egotistical "demonstration" than refinement of this new art he'd created. I could be wrong on that; I haven't read too terribly much about him. Though I do remember that bullet-dodging incident... :)

Still at the end, Aikido is a very personal art. If it behooves your Aikido to participate in such an event, I wish you good luck. But you'd better make very, very sure your Aikido is up to par. It may be good to take into consideration that while surely many Aikidoka have had or do have the opportunity to do these things, very few, or even none have.

nikonl
09-03-2001, 04:30 AM
Personally,i think Aikidokas don't participate in the UFC because, 1.Those who are skilled enough to win(old masters) aren't realli interested in it. 2.Those who are interested(young,un-wise) are not skilled enough to join.

I mean,if you were a highly skilled aikidoka,why would you want to join? Wouldn't it be better if you had spent the time training in your dojo? There's nothing to gain,nothing to prove,or should i say,there's no need to prove. You are just what you are,no more no less.

Regarding the subject on stamina to last in the fight,i hope some people from the ki-society could give their comments on that.

Erik
09-03-2001, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Jim23
These kinds of dicussions are really pointless in a forum like this.

Theoretically, if an effective aikidoka were to take on a fighter from another style, the aikidoka would be the winner - we are ready for anything!!

So then, why can't an aikidoka quickly lead/throw/pin/submit/etc. someone in the UFC? Who cares what they train in or for, or how strong they are! They want to strike? Take you down? It really makes little difference, does it? Why play their game?

However, that's not really how the world works.

The argument that we don't train for UFC-style fighting is pretty weak. Doesn't aikido make you ready for anything?

Many questions ... no real answers.

Jim23

I read this as sarcasm. Am I wrong?

Erik
09-03-2001, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Scott_in_Kansas
O' Sensei didn't seem to have any problem against much larger opponents.

O'Sensei, to my knowledge, never fought a 6'3", 220 pound Olympic caliber wrestler with 4% body fat. They did not exist in Japan, or virtually anywhere else, when O'Sensei was around. The level of athleticism at the elite levels today would have been unimaginable to someone like O'Sensei.

Also, I've caught a sense of an idea that an Aikido master, presumably in his 40's or 50's could clean up the Octagon. Unless he or she is a janitor I doubt it. Age, strength and speed still count and they count for a lot at this level of athletic performance. It's just not gonna happen in my opinion.

NHB has almost become a martial art unto itself. It requires certain very specific skills (one of them is size which isn't really a skill is it) and it doesn't invalidate us in any way to say that the training most of us do is wholly inadequate for this sort of event. If we trained for NHB fighting then we'd be NHB fighters and not Aikidoists.

guest1234
09-03-2001, 10:30 PM
RATS. :p
And here I'd just sent away for my application...:rolleyes:

darin
09-04-2001, 12:05 AM
I have watched various "seasoned masters" do aikido and would say that none of them would be able to win a UFC tournament using aikido.

Firstly, all these UFC fighters are professionals. They fight for money which means they are trained by the best. They are young, in top condition and usually come from a strong background in boxing, kickboxing and wrestling. These guys aren't just anyone.

Secondly, the style of fighting in these tournaments is very refined. Aikido uses intricate locks and throws that are very difficult to apply to someone who is not wearing a gi, strong, very quick and is wet with sweat.

Aikido is still a good form of self defence. In some ways its more effective than kickboxing or grappling. Have you ever seen the BJJ self defence videos? You would be suprised to see a lot of aikido techniques used against knives and grabs.

I have trained with many security personel, who come from a kickboxing/karate/kung fu background and are very suspicious of aikido. After a few lessons they think its the best thing for their jobs.

daedalus
09-04-2001, 12:32 AM
Tohei Sensei whomped a professional fighter. Here's the story from an interview of Chiba Sensei on www.aikidofaq.com:

"What about Master Koichi Tohei of the Ki Society?

Yes, Tohei Sensei is very good. He is small but very powerful. I saw him take a challenge from a wrestler once.

Sumotori or Western style?

Western style. Two brothers - Germans I think from Argentina - and they were enormous! They had to bend over to avoid hitting their heads on the gate-post of the Hombu. This was the only time that O Sensei accepted a challenge for Hombu. These people were travelling the world with a film crew and were challenging different Martial Arts masters. They had been to the Kodokan (Judo HQ), but the Judo men had not been able to handle them. So they challenged the Aikido Hombu. When they arrived I met them and brought them in. Inside the dojo were O Sensei Kisshomaru Sensei, and Tohei Sensei who was then the Chief Instructor to the Aikido Foundation. O Sensei nominated Tohei to go first, as he was so strong. So the wrestler crouched in a low posture with his hands out stretched in front of him, and just moved in a circle around Tohei Sensei for a long time. Tohei Sensei was very relaxed and just followed his movement, and eventually cornered him. Just as the wrestler began to move Tohei leapt upon him, threw him to the floor, and bounced his head for him. Tohei Sensei then pinned him down with his hand blade extension, which, as you may have heard, is very powerful. This guy could not move, and his brother declined to try Tohei for himself, so that was that. Apparently at the Kodokan the Judo men advised them not to make a grab for an Aikido Master. That is why he circled Tohei Sensei for so long."


Just like to say that just because someone is huge, sweaty, and shirtless doesn't mean that their joints twist a different way then anyone else's or that the laws of physics simply don't apply to them.

shihonage
09-04-2001, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by darin
Aikido uses intricate locks and throws that are very difficult to apply to someone who is not wearing a gi, strong, very quick and is wet with sweat.


In Aikido that's being taught here, there's a specific emphasis on "not grabbing", so that the techniques (with a few rare exceptions) don't really depend on the attacker's sweatiness, or lack of clothes.

Kami
09-04-2001, 04:42 AM
Originally posted by daedalus
Tohei Sensei whomped a professional fighter. Here's the story from an interview of Chiba Sensei on www.aikidofaq.com:


KAMI : This story is just told there, I don't think anyone else confirmed it and it is suspiciously similar to the film "RENDEZ VOUS WITH ADVENTURE", where an american crew made a documentary with O-Sensei with Tohei Sensei acting as interpreter. A middle-aged american reporter, with a back up on grappling, wished to test Aikido and the Founder authorized Tohei Sensei to test with the man. Of course, Tohei Sensei couldn't use more violent techniques nor killing the man. All the "machismo" story there was absent, in reality. What we see, is a young Tohei Sensei struggling, with quite some difficulty, with the older guy. He couldn't use the majority of Aikido techniques and he finally won with much trouble, not "stomping the man's head on the floor"... Not a very good exemple of Aikido's superiority. By the way, O-Sensei didn't look very satisfied with this test.

Originally posted by daedalus
Just like to say that just because someone is huge, sweaty, and shirtless doesn't mean that their joints twist a different way then anyone else's or that the laws of physics simply don't apply to them.

KAMI : Of course not...But if that man, besides huge, sweaty, and shirtless, is also a good technician in his chosen art, then, YES, if Aikido is totally unprepared, it will have trouble! Even men with no expertise, some times have very flexible joints and are very difficult to pin. If that man is an expert and also knows (Aikido isn't such a mysterious art anymore) those laws of physics, you'll have trouble applying them.
I'm not dismissing or thinking bad of Aikido. I'm just saying that Aikido is a wonderful and efficient art, considered under certain circunstances. It is not a magic art, perfect, created by a God and able to withstand any other art, under unprepared for circunstances. That's naive.
The same thing happened with brazilian jiu-jitsu. Initially, it was an unknown art and, in the 3 first UFC, it won easily against other arts (with the advantage that the rules were created by a BJJ man, Rorion Gracie). After the initial surprise was over, other guys from grappling, prepared specially for such events, began to won and today, BJJ is just one style from many others. No special advantage.
Just my opinion

ian
09-04-2001, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by Kami

It is not a magic art, perfect, created by a God and able to withstand any other art

I think this is where aikido differs from all other martial arts. Aikido is not a set of techniques but a set of principles. It is also a set of principles which ARE unbeatable, even though people may never perfect it (and thus it is unlikely that anyone is unbeatable). One of the main principles being blending.

Also, although there are many aikidokas who cannot punch effectively and who are unfit, that does not include all of us. I do a lot of quite intense fitness excercise and practise striking and kicking regularly. I don't look at this as 'seperate' from aikido - to me aikido not a series of ju-jitsu technqiues. Also, I don't do this 'cos I think aikido is rubbish. I do it because I think knowing how to strike effectively is an integral part to understanding aikido.

If you remember, Ueshiba's most important enlightenment was when he was being attacked by someone with a sword and avoided being cut, it wasn't that he managed to put kote-gaeshi etc on the man - he just completely avoided being hurt. i.e. it isn't about a set of techniques, it is about body movement.

I would think that any martial art would benefit from aikido training to improve their own art, and I'm sure many of these top athletes need to use 'aikido' principles to overcome the force of their attackers. Doing aikido has made me relaise the beauty of the body movement in boxing, and from what I've seen, whether they are taught it as 'aikido' or not, the concept of blending , timing, miai etc is very important in boxing.

Also, for me aikido is perfectly designed to protect yourself in real situations. This means i. you can have a graded response related to the aggressiveness of the attack, ii. it allows an instantaneous reaction from an unexpected attack.

In NHB fighting the attacks are pretty much expected, and as mentioned previously it is set up in such a way that certain martial arts are given an advantage. In real fights one of the most important skills is awareness 'cos you don't know who is going to attack you. I think aikido is excellent for developing this.

In conclusion, I think it is not very good comparing aikido to other martial arts since aikido is not so much a set of techniques as a way of doing techniques. Therefore any martial artist could incorporate aikido principles into their martial art (maybe some of the NHB lot already do this, and in some obscure way aikido is already in these fights).

Ian

L. Camejo
09-04-2001, 08:29 AM
Hi All

There's a person on aikiweb (name escapes me at the moment) whose signature says "All generalizations are false" and I think it really holds true to this thread. The fact is, as far as practicality in a fight is concerned, not all Aikido is created equal. So saying "Aikido" can and cannot win in NHB fighting is practically senseless, since there are MANY MANY forms of Aikido, some of which are devastatingly effective in self defence. Victory in a fight (especially in the UFC) can come down to everything from mastered techniques to sheer luck.

On another note, there is no such thing as No Holds Barred fighting in a ring with rules, such as in the UFC. As long as there are ANY rules, true NHB fighting is a myth. So, let's not get into debates as to whether "Aikido" (generalised) can or cannot stand up in these circus side shows. We all do Aikido for different reasons and obviously the one who is in it for character buiding may not be as effective in self defence as one who does it for the utilitarian purpose of self defence.

I agree with Ian on the topic of the Aikido "principles" however. These concepts are unbeatable, but the fact is, these principles are most powerful when applied with an empty mind i.e. no rules (hence they do not come into their own in so-called "No Holds Barred" fighting tournaments).

Martial arts, like any other arts are expressions of the individual, and that is where practical combat effectiveness or utter uselessness lies. It's the artisan, not the art.

Masakatsu Agatsu
L.C.:ai::ki:

Kami
09-04-2001, 11:47 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by L. Camejo
[B]Hi All

There's a person on aikiweb (name escapes me at the moment) whose signature says "All generalizations are false" and I think it really holds true to this thread.[END QUOTE]

KAMI : I agree partially.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by L. Camejo
[B]The fact is, as far as practicality in a fight is concerned, not all Aikido is created equal. So saying "Aikido" can and cannot win in NHB fighting is practically senseless, since there are MANY MANY forms of Aikido, some of which are devastatingly effective in self defence. Victory in a fight (especially in the UFC) can come down to everything from mastered techniques to sheer luck.[END QUOTE]

KAMI : I agree in part. There are many forms of Aikido but even Tomiki trains on its own rules and those are very different from the rules in NHB/UFC. The same applies to Jiyu Waza, more common in Aikido. Also, to be "effective in self-defense" means nothing in this scenario. Self-defense is not sport competition. Things you can do in self-defense you can't do in sport competition. And I don't discuss "sheer luck".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by L. Camejo
[B]On another note, there is no such thing as No Holds Barred fighting in a ring with rules, such as in the UFC. As long as there are ANY rules, true NHB fighting is a myth.[END QUOTE]

KAMI : Yes, there is not, anywhere in the world, true "no-holds-barred" fighting...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by L. Camejo
[B] So, let's not get into debates as to whether "Aikido" (generalised) can or cannot stand up in these circus side shows. We all do Aikido for different reasons and obviously the one who is in it for character buiding may not be as effective in self defence as one who does it for the utilitarian purpose of self defence.[END QUOTE]

KAMI : Or for sports competition, exactly what I said. You have to train specifically for sports competition or for self-defense (two different things) if you want to become good in any of them. Or in "character building"...:D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by L. Camejo
[B]Martial arts, like any other arts are expressions of the individual, and that is where practical combat effectiveness or utter uselessness lies. It's the artisan, not the art. [END QUOTE]

KAMI : I agree absolutely. That's why I said before that it's up to the individual. If you really want to go there, by all means do so. If not, don't. But be prepared for it!
Best

Jim23
09-04-2001, 03:53 PM
*poof*

You called master?

I should probably change ny signature, as it is a bit of a generalization. ;)

Jim23

mj
09-04-2001, 06:40 PM
And like that! (poof)
He was gone.

Mares
09-04-2001, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by darin


Secondly, the style of fighting in these tournaments is very refined. Aikido uses intricate locks and throws that are very difficult to apply to someone who is not wearing a gi, strong, very quick and is wet with sweat.




Does this mean that Aikido is useless outside of a dojo because last time I checked very few people walk around the streets in gi's. Damn it, so I've wasted all these years.

Enough of the sarcasim, no offence intended darin but to me that appears to be a silly statement. Where I train there are some pretty strong guys with strong grips. I don't know how strong those NHB fighters are (and i imagine they are extremely strong) but I'd like to think Aikido techniques are powerful enough to get through strength. We are constantly reminded that if u require strength to power through a technique odds are you are doing it incorectly, ie not enough kokyu, wrong angle etc.

As far as speed is concerned alot of that has to do with your maai or distancing, reaction times and whether you pick up the attack early. I guess in a real fight it could be argued that it all comes down to luck. But dare I say it, if u believe they are faster than u, then they already have u beaten.

Wet and sweaty, all I have to say is, Have you done a Udansha class during summer? especially in Australia where it is usually in the mid 30s and even as high as 40 degrees.

darin
09-04-2001, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by Mares



Does this mean that Aikido is useless outside of a dojo because last time I checked very few people walk around the streets in gi's. Damn it, so I've wasted all these years.

Enough of the sarcasim, no offence intended darin but to me that appears to be a silly statement. Where I train there are some pretty strong guys with strong grips. I don't know how strong those NHB fighters are (and i imagine they are extremely strong) but I'd like to think Aikido techniques are powerful enough to get through strength. We are constantly reminded that if u require strength to power through a technique odds are you are doing it incorectly, ie not enough kokyu, wrong angle etc.

As far as speed is concerned alot of that has to do with your maai or distancing, reaction times and whether you pick up the attack early. I guess in a real fight it could be argued that it all comes down to luck. But dare I say it, if u believe they are faster than u, then they already have u beaten.

Wet and sweaty, all I have to say is, Have you done a Udansha class during summer? especially in Australia where it is usually in the mid 30s and even as high as 40 degrees.

No I didn't say that aikido is useless outside of the dojo. Its just my answer to why no aikidoka has gone in and won a NHB tournament using only aikido techniques. Same could be said for kung fu, tae kwondo and karate.

I think aikido is fairly easy to escape from. Once a person learns the kaeshi waza and is reasonably strong its very difficult for a technique to be put on him. Even Mochizuki Kancho said that aikido techniques are easy to escape from. I read somewhere that he had trouble using Daito Ryu techniques against savate and wrestlers in Europe. He would change to Judo and win easily. This is why Yoseikan style has many karate, jujitsu and judo techniques.

I have a 3rd dan in aikido and have trained with many yudansha in all seasons. Yes slippery in summer. Good workout!

Thanks.

shihonage
09-05-2001, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by darin

Once a person learns the kaeshi waza and is reasonably strong its very difficult for a technique to be put on him.


I thought that at shodan+ level of the art the practitioner understands that it's not him who's putting the technique on the attacker, but the attacker is putting that technique on himself with the assistance of the Aikido practitioner.

If the attacker gets out of a technique, good for him. If he is not retreating, use whatever energy he's investing, to slip him into another technique... what's the problem here ?

andrew
09-05-2001, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by Jim23
These kinds of dicussions are really pointless in a forum like this.


Absoloutely! (and I still haven't read past this message...)

However, somebody posted the rules of, I think it was, the UFC on a thread here a few months back. Effectively they said atemi are not allowed. I've got to go along with Ubaldos comments about entering a competition where somebody else made the rules here, then.

For the record, I actually read the last paragraph of Jims post (which I've not left above there). It's not sarcasm really- it's just plain english commonsense, isn't it?

andrew

arvin m.
09-05-2001, 11:01 AM
Hey all, having read this post i'm reminded of this documentary which i watched regarding muay thai fighters in thailand. Supposedly, a bunch of hongkong martial artistes wished to disprove the Thai claim that muay thai was the king of all martial arts...they got their asses whipped in five seconds flat against every muay thai chap they faced...they wnet back again several years later on a vendetta and still got thrashed...these muay thai fellows arent unlike the UFC chaps...but they come from much more impoverishd and brutal backgrounds...if u want brutal, see these guys in thailand folks!!

Anyways, i was just wondering...see when we stance we have one of our legs forward yes? Doesnt this expose that leg to a low kick or something?(K i alreadi see pple chanting ma'ai)

As always, thanx for the comments!! Great post by the way, made me think alot abt having to plummel my opponents to teach them a lesson...i'll remember to send them flowers when their in the hospital next time yah? hehe...take care folks

Erik
09-05-2001, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by andrew
However, somebody posted the rules of, I think it was, the UFC on a thread here a few months back. Effectively they said atemi are not allowed. I've got to go along with Ubaldos comments about entering a competition where somebody else made the rules here, then.


http://www.ufc.tv/history/rules.html

Those are the rules of the UFC. They've added so many due to pressure from legislators in the US. The idea being to remove the brutality from it.

We're a strange country in some ways. We like our brain damage to be caused slowly and consistently rather than all at once. Less painful on the viewers I suppose.

mj
09-05-2001, 11:34 AM
I thought you meant the viewers were being brain-damaged :rolleyes: Erik
:)

Erik
09-05-2001, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by mj
I thought you meant the viewers were being brain-damaged :rolleyes: Erik
:)

Nah, that's a foregone conclusion. The WWF (not the world wildlife federation) owns the top-rated cable programs in the USA. The viewer side of the house is already lost.

Actually, I've watched wrestling.....:eek:

yoshi
09-05-2001, 07:35 PM
What we see, is a young Tohei Sensei struggling, with quite some difficulty, with the older guy.
Though Tohei Sensei seemed to be struggling,he was still able to maintain his balance under such circumstances(i believe all of us had those playful struggles with friends before and it ain't easy to maintain balance ,taking to consideration that tohei sensei was actually 'sparring' with that guy.).And if you notice,the way tohei sensei brought the guy down to the floor was actually kinda amazing(it didn't seem so to me initially.).I don't think i would be able to bring the guy down the way he did.:)

guest1234
09-05-2001, 11:39 PM
I haven't seen the film with Tohei Sensei that you are talking about, but I do know that at 5'5" I am probably taller than he. I also know what it is like trying to do techniques on much larger male beginners who don't know how to fall, so you have to take into account not hurting them while dealing with someone larger throwing a lot of weight and force at you. I am happy then if I just avoid hurting them. I would imagine, especially if O Sensei had made some restrictions on what kind of techniques could be done, plus probable concern over ukemi...it is hard to do techniques if you are not sure your uke can take it.:rolleyes:

SCAikidoka
09-06-2001, 12:33 AM
Hi im new to this forum but heres what I have to say. In NHB events such as UFC and pride Small joint manipulation and pressure points are illegal i believe. Now I really like watching these programs but in no way do I recognize what I see as budo or martial arts. These are athletes and their sport is fighting. They study fighting arts. An Aikidoka trains to protect themself, but these men practically live in the gym sparring, lifting weights, and increasing their ability to decimate someone. Now inside a ring or an octagon an aikidoka who trains practical real life techniques would definitly not stand a chance against one of these hurt machines. However, Im sure that there are many aikidoka that could alter their training and surely become very dangerous in one of these events. I train as hard as I can so I can have very effective technique, but I dont feel the need to ever have to prove it or the art i train to anyone.

-Jesse

Kami
09-06-2001, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by ca
I would imagine, especially if O Sensei had made some restrictions on what kind of techniques could be done, plus probable concern over ukemi...it is hard to do techniques if you are not sure your uke can take it.:rolleyes:

KAMI : Exactly my point, Colleen! And the video is "RENDEZ-VOUS WITH ADVENTURE", part of a 6 tape series on O-Sensei commercialized by Stanley Pranin, of Aikido Journal. It's a very interesting tape. And I still think it was a mistake staging that match...
Best

Irony
09-06-2001, 09:46 AM
Wow. I just looked at UFC rules, and KAMI's right, there's no way an aikidoka could win that. No "Small joint manipulation". No "Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury."

No avoiding contact? We'd have to chance! We'd try to keep ma'ai and be disqualified!

Irony
09-06-2001, 09:48 AM
I meant we'd have NO chance.

yoshi
09-06-2001, 10:19 AM
I haven't seen the film with Tohei Sensei that you are talking about, but I do know that at 5'5" I am probably taller than he. I also know what it is like trying to do techniques on much larger male beginners who don't know how to fall, so you have to take into account not hurting them while dealing with someone larger throwing a lot of weight and force at you. I am happy then if I just avoid hurting them. I would imagine, especially if O Sensei had made some restrictions on what kind of techniques could be done, plus probable concern over ukemi...it is hard to do techniques if you are not sure your uke can take it.
You can see a short part of the clip here
http://www.aikidojournal.com/Video/index.asp
Initially i was kinda disappointed by the clip because it wasn't what i expected.I asked my sensei abt this before and he told me it was after this incident then did tohei sensei really started to focus on ki principles.Tohei sensei himself was troubled abt this incident himself.Anyway,he finally understood something which made a change.That's why while he was in hawaii,he did not have much difficulty throwing those wrestler or judokas though it was his first time doing the randori.I guess he's the only one(so far known to me)who did the multiple attack in public,throwing 7-8judokas(4thdan and above) ard like rag dolls.
Excuse me if i am wrong in any case or if i offended anyone. :)
:ki:

Scott_in_Kansas
09-09-2001, 09:52 PM
The "small joint manipulation" in the UFC rules apply to finger and toe locks not wrist or arm manipulation. They still do armbar submissions and ankle submissions so those are legal.

I personally find the banning of "nerve strikes" somewhat troubling. You mean I can't strike a nerve on the guys neck and knock him out but I can strike him on the chin and knock him out and that's okay? Wierd.

Also there seems to be a lot of discussion about SIZE and STRENGTH aikido. Keep in mind in the UFC at least you fight in a weight class, so you are going to weigh within twenty pounds of your opponent. Nonetheless, I have two questions?

1. Do I need to be very strong to do aikido? I'm counting on this martial art to help me defend myself. I live in America and it is rare somebody small attacks someone larger. If some 250 pound ape attacks me (I'm only 175 lbs) is aikido ineffective?

2. Don't we use our opponents energy against themselves? Doesn't this nullify any size argument?

Respectfully,

Scott in Kansas

Irony
09-09-2001, 10:06 PM
Being a 250 lbs ape, I have to say that size does matter... if your aikido is in any way lacking. There are many times that I could muscle out of things when nage is sloppy or careless. I think the size issue is nullified when aikido is done consistantly well, but I'd be afraid to go up against some one bigger than me. Even though at 6'6" and 260 lbs it would be diffucult to find someone to try it on.

SCAikidoka
09-09-2001, 10:18 PM
I believe one, if trained properly could use their aikido to defend off any attacker. On the streets you would use all of your Aikdio knowledge to defend with the first thought in mind being protect myself and the attacker. However if you are being overwhelmed by an attacker on the streets you are allowed to do whatever you need to defend yourself. There are no rules in fighting for your life. I believe the aikido that I am learning is an amazing form of self defense because on top of physical techniques I am learning how to avoid physical competition all together. However the men in these fighting competitions train in some ways more rigorously than most Aikidoka. They work on there speed and reflexes just as an aikidoka does except they emphasize on how they can use their skills destroy someone in their sport without focusing on ideals of love and harmony. Because of the aiki principles I believe Aikido is a much more effective means of self defense, but in a ring with rules Aikido will not be enough. These men and women are well rounded fighters with backgrounds in many arts ranging from striking to grappling, however none of the champions these days claim to be practicioners of one art. They are all hybrid fighters competing in the sport of mixed martial arts.

Scott_in_Kansas
09-10-2001, 09:26 PM
Irony Wrote:
Being a 250 lbs ape, I have to say that size does matter... if your aikido is in any way lacking. There are many times that I could muscle out of things when nage is sloppy or careless. I think the size issue is nullified when aikido is done consistantly well, but I'd be afraid to go up against some one bigger than me. Even though at 6'6" and 260 lbs it would be diffucult to find someone to try it on.

If size matters...consider this!

1. The average man weighs 175 lbs.
2. The average woman weighs 115 lbs.

So you are 50% bigger than the average man. The average man is 50% bigger than the average woman.

Does this mean that a female aikidoka couldn't even stand up to a man of average size? Are female aikidoka able to defend themselves? Shouldn't good technique conquer size? My first karate instructor told me:

"A good big man will beat a good little man if all else is equal."

He also said:

"A strong body will beat a weak body. A strong technique will beat a strong body. A strong mind will beat a strong technique."

I am really not trying to be faceitous here. Bringing the thread full circle here,I'm just trying to make a point which only one or two have agreed with throughout this thread.

1. Aikido is an art, but it is a martial art. We learn fighting principles which should be able to be applied to any situation or any attacker. As a couple of posters have echoed here "We are ready for anything."

2. A skilled aikidoka who has devoted years to his art should be able to defend himself against a Mixed Martial Artist who spends most of his time lifting weights and ground fighting.

Am I wrong on these two points? Or is MMA the next super martial art? (Remember when Tae Kwon Do was called Super Karate?)

Respectfully,

Scott in Kansas

guest1234
09-10-2001, 11:57 PM
Wow...115# is average? At 115#, that is what I always say, but I do think the average woman (at least in the US) is a bit bigger;)

I think if we are just talking wrestling to the ground, then yes, the average female will not do well against the average male. What if she knows Aikido? Well, she'd still need to be pretty good at it, not great, but good. Partly because if your technique is ineffective, size does matter---big guys in class can often compensate with muscle. Even with good technique, there is again the problem of trying to get an uke who doesn't know ukemi to the ground softly/safely when he is twice your size. You have to experience that to know what it is like. Getting them to the ground is not the problem. It's that safely part that is so tricky. You know, f=ma.

What I would like to think, is that the average sized female Aikidoka, well before her technique got to that level, had matured to a level where she wasn't needing to worry about being in that situation requiring that skill.

Irony
09-11-2001, 12:51 AM
"Does this mean that a female aikidoka couldn't even stand up to a man of average size? Are female aikidoka able to defend themselves? Shouldn't good technique conquer size?"

Yes, and that was the point I was trying to make. Is your technique absolutely 100% perfect? No, probably not. Mine isn't either. No one's is. I'm sure we've all have slipups where uke has gotten the better of us. If you performed a good technique on me it would work. Plain and simple. If there is a weakness in your technique my size gives me several advantages towards getting out of it and hurting you in return. My only point was that these UFC guys are probably my size and work out a hell of a lot more than I do (never). While a master aikidoka should have no problem, one mistake would probably end it.

Just my opinion though. Maybe you do have perfect technique! What do I know?

darin
09-11-2001, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by Irony
"Does this mean that a female aikidoka couldn't even stand up to a man of average size? Are female aikidoka able to defend themselves? Shouldn't good technique conquer size?"

Yes, and that was the point I was trying to make. Is your technique absolutely 100% perfect? No, probably not. Mine isn't either. No one's is. I'm sure we've all have slipups where uke has gotten the better of us. If you performed a good technique on me it would work. Plain and simple. If there is a weakness in your technique my size gives me several advantages towards getting out of it and hurting you in return. My only point was that these UFC guys are probably my size and work out a hell of a lot more than I do (never). While a master aikidoka should have no problem, one mistake would probably end it.

Just my opinion though. Maybe you do have perfect technique! What do I know?

I agree with you but I still have my doubts that any master aikidoka could go in and win a UFC using ONLY aikido.

This is a sporting event and money is to be made. Hell winning one of those tournaments will be much more financially rewarding than running a martial arts school... If aikidoka really felt they could win they would enter.

Anyway we are not talking ethics here but technique. Until I see someone executing flowing kotegaeshi, iriminage and shihonage in a UFC or whatever tournament I will not criticise UFC fighters.

Jim23
09-11-2001, 09:25 AM
Most Aikidokists don't train hard enough to even think about entering a UFC-type of contest. Besides, can they take or deliver strong blows - do they even know if they can? Can they stay on their feet?

Can perfect technique defeat brute strength? Definitely. Do UFC fighters have good technique? Damn right or they wouldn't be there - problem is, they are usually pretty tough guys also.

Can a typical female Aikidokist defeat a typical male? Probably, but not the ones I've seen. Some may have good technique, but if the male really resists (in an unrehearsed manner), the technique usually fails.

Aikido is fun and it can also be very effective. It can also be empty.

Jim23

andrew
09-11-2001, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Jim23
Some may have good technique, but if the male really resists (in an unrehearsed manner), the technique usually fails.



One of my teachers always resists, and he's bloody strong, and it's frustrating, and then he finally gets me to do it properly and it feels like he's stopped resisting and let me do it, but he hasn't. What I'm saying is there is a point where resistance is futile.

I can't even come close to getting a shihonage on him, though.

andrew

Scott_in_Kansas
09-11-2001, 02:37 PM
Most of you seem to be saying something like this...

If your aikido technique isn't perfect, a stronger opponent will usually defeat you.

Doesn't this make aikido a "weak" martial art?

I am also trained in karate and I've dealt with larger opponents without much trouble (in actual street defense situations) using very simple karate techniques.

Are aikido techniques too complex and too difficult to execute to be an effective self defense against a larger/stronger opponent?

Respectfully,

Scott in Kansas

guest1234
09-11-2001, 07:05 PM
No, Scott, with the exception of Jim, who usually is saying Aikido does not work, the rest of us are saying it must be decent technique for 100 pounds to control 200 pounds without 200 pounds getting hurt. My technique is terrible and I'm a beginner, but 200 pounds will hit the ground. But not necessarily without damage. Fortunately, my focus is not, never has been on being attacked, so unlike most on this thread I don't really care how many attackers I can beat. I also think Aikido, even at the level I am now, will keep me from needing to worry about how many I can beat.

100 pounds hitting 200 pounds, as in karate, would need to be prettry darn good I think to make a difference.

As for the person who felt an instructor would enter competition if he thought he could win, rather than teach…all of my instructors taught for free, fees were for dojo upkeep only. The ones at my university club were paid by the university to teach four classes a week, and donated that money back to the club to use for seminars. Money is not what it is about.

I think the question should not be 'could we win' because other than in a mine-is-BIGGER way who cares, but 'why would we even want to'.

Jim23
09-12-2001, 03:58 PM
Colleen,

I haven't said that aikido doesn't work - not for quite a while anyway.;)

I feel the same way about karate, boxing, wrestling, etc. also (men vs. women).

Men have superior upperbody strength that many women seem to forget about (or choose to play down in a forum like this).

When I first started training, I found women - and many men - had major problems handling me, and I wasn't trying to be difficult, I just didn't know what I was supposed to do (I'm average height and weight, but quite strong and damn good looking ;)).

I'm not saying that women can't be effective in self-defence situations, but they need to be realistic as to what they can do to a larger, stronger male.

Of course, there are always exceptions out there.

Jim23

mj
09-12-2001, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by Jim23

I'm not saying that women can't be effective in self-defence situations, but they need to be realistic as to what they can do to a larger, stronger male.

Jim23

I am stunned that Jim23 said this.
He is married isn't he?
It's not all physical. (Aikido/real life)

andrew
09-13-2001, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by Scott_in_Kansas
Most of you seem to be saying something like this...

If your aikido technique isn't perfect, a stronger opponent will usually defeat you.





Ahhm... I think it's more meant that most people don't train to deal with that kind of aggression that you'd find in, for instance, a fight. (cough) Or indeed train enough. I believe it's mainly down to your mental state.

Aikido techniques are actually awfully awfully simple, but that doesn't make them simple to carry out. I know how to make a mess out of somebody and I know how to gently disable them, but I wouldn't bet on myself not wincing and making an arse of it when somebody attacked me.

look at some of the clips on
http://www.geocities.com/rosentalyoav/
and make up your own maind anyhow. Some of the clips (especially some of the ones with Christian Tissier) are pretty rough stuff, but they're also very simple and direct.
andrew

darin
09-13-2001, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by andrew


Ahhm... I think it's more meant that most people don't train to deal with that kind of aggression that you'd find in, for instance, a fight. (cough) Or indeed train enough. I believe it's mainly down to your mental state.

Aikido techniques are actually awfully awfully simple, but that doesn't make them simple to carry out. I know how to make a mess out of somebody and I know how to gently disable them, but I wouldn't bet on myself not wincing and making an arse of it when somebody attacked me.

look at some of the clips on
http://www.geocities.com/rosentalyoav/
and make up your own maind anyhow. Some of the clips (especially some of the ones with Christian Tissier) are pretty rough stuff, but they're also very simple and direct.
andrew

His aikido is good but can he do those techniques in a UFC...

Irony
09-13-2001, 11:59 PM
JIM23: When I first started training, I found women - and many men - had major problems handling me, and I wasn't trying to be difficult, I just didn't know what I was supposed to do (I'm average height and weight, but quite strong and damn good looking ). I'm not saying that women can't be effective in self-defence situations, but they need to be realistic as to what they can do to a larger, stronger male.---

CHRIS: I had the same experience when I first started (and chances are I'm even bigger than you) but I soon realized that it wasn't that they couldn't throw me, but I had horrible ukemi at the time and I probably would have limped home and never come back. Also we train as beginners from static (most of the time) and without the momentum to work with it's doubtful that the technique would work in those conditions. (No 100 pound person, man or woman, can throw a 200 pound one with pure upper body strength)

My chief instructor is a woman and she can throw me around with absolutely no problem. I'm more than twice her size. Literally. She used to have a problem doing koshinages on me, but now that I know the ukemi it's no real problem. She's still an ikkyu, too. This proves to me that size, if the technique is done correctly, does not matter. If she does make a mistake, yes, I could overpower her. But when she doesn't... it still hurts sometimes. What she can do to me is very realistic.

You're betraying your usual tag line, Jim23. Generalizations.....

Jim23
09-14-2001, 10:05 AM
You're betraying your usual tag line, Jim23. Generalizations.....
Ha! :D

That's why I said that there are exceptions out there.;)

Anyway, although I understand what you're saying, I still don't agree. I understand about committed attacks, momentum, good ukemi and all that.

If I were to really (I mean really) strike or give a (really) strong grip, nine times out of ten, the technique would fail. If I play along, well, things would be different, and that's fine for training.

Jim23

Irony
09-14-2001, 10:16 AM
That's cool that you think so. Just don't be surprised if one day you're working with a 110 lbs female, decide to resist and find yourself headfirst in a corner, moaning. :)

Remember that even though resisting may make the technique you're working on impossible, it also opens a window for a completely different one. You can blend with resistance too!

ranZ
09-28-2001, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Scott_in_Kansas
Most of you seem to be saying something like this...

If your aikido technique isn't perfect, a stronger opponent will usually defeat you.


Let's not forget the "ki" in aikido. I'd agree more to 'if your ki doesn't flow, a stronger opponent will usually defeat you.' Are there anybody else from ki society here?

My sensei loves big students. The bigger they are, the better because they're easier to defeat if we use ki properly.

About 'how it's hard to grab a sweaty hand or people not wearing gi'. We are taught to hold opponent's hand not with strength, but with ki, which is more effective, especially for small people like me. We don't even grab. I've seen techniques where you don't even have to hold the opponent's hand.

Originally posted by Jim23

I'm not saying that women can't be effective in self-defence situations, but they need to be realistic as to what they can do to a larger, stronger male.


I'm a small female who sometimes get frustrated facing bigger male opponent. I can't even do ikyo on them. And then my sensei told me, 'since you are small, you might want to use other more efective technique.' Well there's a prety realistic solution. Not all techniques work on all people. But i'm pretty realistic to what i can do to a larger, stronger male. If i want to i can just kick their b**ls. :eek:

Kelly Cook
10-01-2001, 02:44 AM
I've trained in Aikido (and judo and taekwondo) very informally for only a year, so I personally don't have the experience to comment on these boards very educatedly. My instructor, however, is a very skilled marial artist. Along with teaching me and my brother privately, he also takes lessons himself in a few other arts. He's come into the habit of sparring with his own instructors often, one an accomplished and respected Kung Fu, Taekwondo, and Karate artist, and the other a black belt in Judo. He holds no belt in Aikido that I know of (maybe he's not telling me, that sounds like him!). He was trained informally himself, in that his training included few traditionalities (for lack of a better word) and little more than the actual combat skills. Anyway, to the point, using his aikido alone, he consistently defeats a Kung Fu master, who then switches to a black-belt-holding Taekwondo artist, and is defeated again. To top off the evening, the Judo black-belt enters the ring, and is defeated just as consistently. So far, my instructor has suffered one side-kick to the shoulder, one pin, and one throw in a year of weekly spars. His opponents have else been defeated at every spar. This goes to show that even an aikido artist that hasn't even obtained the highest levels can pose a threat to the most skilled of Martial Artists.

Kelly Cook

P.S. I'm rather unfamiliar with common termonologies and phrases and customs of a 'normal' dojo. My lessons, as I said before, were private lessons in an upstairs concert hall given by an employee of my father (he left his Dojo to become a youth minister, and needed a weekly job). When I say informal, I mean extremely informal. So, basically, forgive my ignorance.:)

AikidoNuB
10-02-2001, 04:12 PM
Hello Everyone,

I am still new to aikido. I am on my 7th lesson so far and I love it. What I am hearing hear sounds to me like self-doubt or doubt of the art of Aikido. If you guys doubt the art so much for it's self-defense aspects, why is there even a disscusion going on here? Now I understand studying Aikido to learn more about yourself and to gain a higher spiritual understanding...this is why I started. I guess I am confused at this whole topic.

I have studied BJJ and with what little I have seen of Aikido, I think that an Aikidoist whould have very litte problem handling a ground fighter. Isn't the whole concept of Aikido to avoid confrontation and if you cannot to deal with it in a manner that brings harmony and peace?

Ex: A BJJ practicioner trys to grab an aikidoist legs by lunging foward with both hands out to grab the aikidoist around his legs. Seems to me there are many, many things the aikidoist can do to the grappler. This is just my oppinion from what I know about both martial arts. I now have doubts about lunging at someone in fear of winding up on my back or being thrown 25ft across the room. If I knew the person attacking me only had BJJ exp or was some sort of wrestler..no matter his size I fell more than confident now with my little exp in Aikido to be able to handle myself. Perhaps this comes from my insight to what a grappler is and is not capable of doing in certain situations. Just my humble oppinion.

If applied correctly, even a fair trained aikidoka can handle most situations.

Peace and Harmony to all!

mj
10-02-2001, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Jim23

Ha! :D
If I were to really (I mean really) strike or give a (really) strong grip, nine times out of ten, the technique would fail. If I play along, well, things would be different, and that's fine for training.

Jim23

It's when they do that to you, Jim23, that you find out if your technique works.

If you just play with each other, then you all deserve what you get :D

IMHO

Jim23
10-02-2001, 09:49 PM
True.

Just recently, I was working (playing?) with a rather large, strong uke - a beast of a human, actually. Whenever he resisted - which was most of the time - I found him very difficult to handle. Not impossible, but very difficult.

Having said that, I actually find it more frustrating when I have an easy uke. Give me the challenge anytime, as I will eventually overcome it. Otherwise I'm just fooling myself.

You're getting pretty good with those italics Mark.:p

Jim23

Thalib
11-13-2001, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by ranZ


I'm a small female who sometimes get frustrated facing bigger male opponent. I can't even do ikyo on them. And then my sensei told me, 'since you are small, you might want to use other more efective technique.' Well there's a prety realistic solution. Not all techniques work on all people. But i'm pretty realistic to what i can do to a larger, stronger male. If i want to i can just kick their b**ls. :eek:

tst... tsk...

Ran-chan... you know that's not the way we are taught...

ranZ
11-13-2001, 12:13 PM
hwahaha... what da heck r u doin here :P
joinin' the forces e.
yeah.. that special attack move only to be used in *panic mode*!

Mike Collins
11-13-2001, 12:59 PM
Maybe Aikido actually is a weak art. It is pretty useless for a long time, until a practicioner has understood some of the principles.

But maybe that weakness is actually it's ultimate strength. If it is useless until it's understood, maybe what it has to teach is actually pretty deep.

If strength doesn't make it work, maybe once it's understood, the strength of the principle transcends strength and fitness or size.

At that point, I think it's a fantastically strong art.

It seems worth considering anyway.

[Censored]
11-13-2001, 05:37 PM
There's a person on aikiweb (name escapes me at the moment) whose signature says "All generalizations are false" and I think it really holds true to this thread.

Does it? The statement negates itself. :)

PeterR
11-13-2001, 07:18 PM
That's the joke - its like "I always lie".

By the way I believe that the basic principles and effective self defense can be taught quite quickly in the Aikido context - it just boils down to training methodology.

The infamous KISS principle and a limited number of techniques. Expand slowly but surely into the entire repetoir over time but you really don't need a hundred variations and iriminage to defend yourself.



Originally posted by [Censored]
There's a person on aikiweb (name escapes me at the moment) whose signature says "All generalizations are false" and I think it really holds true to this thread.

Does it? The statement negates itself. :)

unsound000
11-14-2001, 04:34 AM
Some things to consider...
The book, "Angry White Pajama's" raises the 'UFC/aikido debate'. In one part of the book, the author explains a defeat of the aikidoist in the octagon with the following reasons.

1. This is not a multi-attacker situation.
and
2. The environment is controlled i.e. you will not be able to use aikido to escape, change attitude, etc.
The ring is an environment more suited to confrontation and fighting whereas, aikido is really more about redirection and creating harmony.

If there was ever a competition to see how many multiple attackers a martial artist could defeat at a time, then I think aikido would do very well. This is a more realistic situation.

andrew
11-14-2001, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by unsound000

1. This is not a multi-attacker situation.
and



That's a really bad excuse.

andrew

unsound000
11-14-2001, 05:53 AM
Originally posted by andrew



That's a really bad excuse.

andrew
Andrew,
Haha. My bad. The author wasn't saying that the aikido guy would have done better if there were more attackers. He was just making the point that this situation does not really test what the aikido person trains for. Other martial artists train for only single attacker sparring. Also, the aikido student trains to be aware of what's going on around him. Again, this training is not utilized in one on one sparring. It's a good book despite my bad expanation of it.
* * * *
Andrew brings up a good point about making excuses. Do we have to excuse aikido for not being a perfect art? Sometimes I get the sense from reading these threads that some in aikido feel a sense that aikido may be inadequate to other martial arts. No other discussion forums really question "Is karate or judo or jujitsu or kung fu effective in a real fight?" I feel as if some aikido practicioners don't want to learn other MA because of the violence involved in them. I think this is out of fear sometimes rather than a total moral choice. I find the same MA principles in every art I study, just the techniques change. Am I wrong? Is aikido perfect? Totally different principles? Do more people go to aikido than other MA because they fear violence? Is there more of a sense of inadequacy because of a fear of violence i.e hurting others or getting hurt?

ian
11-14-2001, 05:55 AM
I hate to add to this ramblingly long thread, but I think Mike has a very good point. The more I learn about aikido the more I learn how realistic it is (and also how deadly it can be if used inappropriately). What a lot of beginners might not realise, is that many of the techniques put you in ideal positions to actually kill or disable your opponent both through strikes to vital points (sternum, back of neck) or to nerve centres (around neck, on spine, other areas).

As a case in point, someone was saying about ikkyo, apart from the obvious pressure that can be applied on the elbow, there is also a knock out point on the back of the upper arm. Now obviously pressure points etc aren't always good, but Aikido puts the praactitioner in a safe position WHILST allowing them to (potentially) do considerable damage to their attacker. - what more to people want?

Ian

ian
11-14-2001, 06:00 AM
I think one reason why many aikidoka are very poor at defending themselves is that many use aikido as a cop out from other martial arts which demand more severe training.

When Ueshiba first taught aikido it was very severe and he expected a good level of body conditioning (and he himself was enormously strong). Obviously Aikido is designed for everyone, but knowing how to strike, kick effectively is important as well as being fit, strong and fast. I don't know why many people in Aikido balk at the thought of serious excercise. During classes I do very little physical excercise, and the aikido is generally not intensive enough as an excercise in its own right, so I think (daily) conditioning training is essential if you are to fully utlise Aikido's potential.

Once again, its not the martial art thats the problem, its the martial artist.

Ian

andrew
11-14-2001, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by unsound000

inadequate to other martial arts. No other discussion forums really question "Is karate or judo or jujitsu or kung fu effective in a real fight?" I feel as if some aikido

You'll find it a lot, but I never really see "Your art is crap, look at my aikido!"

My current teacher told a few of us once, in the pub after a misogi, that he thought aikido wasn't really effective at all until he'd been doing it for about four years. (He'd done six years of kempo before that.)

Actually, I'd heard of angry white pajamas before and it is a book I want to read. (And a course I'd love to do... heh heh..)

It's a redundant question. Give a long sword to a maniac and ask him to attack a shihan and a UFC/NHB fighter. Who do you think is more likely to disarm him? Why don't we ask questions like that? (How about five guys with swords?)
Now I must admit that I rarely take on sword wielding mobs, but I rarely need to take on huge powerful hard training professional fighters without using atemi either.... I'll stick with enjoying aikido. I'm not worried about how I'd fare in a fight because it wouldn't enhance my life to win one. Victory is always fleeting.

andrew

[Censored]
11-14-2001, 04:37 PM
Now I must admit that I rarely take on sword wielding mobs, but I rarely need to take on huge powerful hard training professional fighters without using atemi either.... I'll stick with enjoying aikido. I'm not worried about how I'd fare in a fight because it wouldn't enhance my life to win one. Victory is always fleeting.

By all means enjoy yourself, but God help you if someone comes with a trained attack. You may find that a permanant, crippling injury doesn't enhance your life either. Nor is it fleeting.

PeterR
11-14-2001, 04:50 PM
I think Andrew makes a valid point that when one talks about dealing with a NHB compeditor - the chance that we would run into that sort is pretty low. We may run into the Saturday afternoon Thai boxer wanna be or some violent git who does a bit of Karate training but there is no way they are in the same class.

But how his argument does fall apart is adequetly pointed out by Chris. Even if self defence is not your primary motive for studying Aikido, it sure isn't mine, to take your technique to the higher levels you must understand dealing with aggression and what works under pressure and how it works. Aikido can never be just dancing or moving meditation for then it becomes something else.


Originally posted by Andrew
Now I must admit that I rarely take on sword wielding mobs, but I rarely need to take on huge powerful hard training professional fighters without using atemi either.... I'll stick with enjoying aikido. I'm not worried about how I'd fare in a fight because it wouldn't enhance my life to win one. Victory is always fleeting.
To which Chris [hate that Censored moniker] replies
By all means enjoy yourself, but God help you if someone comes with a trained attack. You may find that a permanant, crippling injury doesn't enhance your life either. Nor is it fleeting.

shihonage
11-14-2001, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by [Censored]
Now I must admit that I rarely take on sword wielding mobs, but I rarely need to take on huge powerful hard training professional fighters without using atemi either.... I'll stick with enjoying aikido. I'm not worried about how I'd fare in a fight because it wouldn't enhance my life to win one. Victory is always fleeting.

By all means enjoy yourself, but God help you if someone comes with a trained attack. You may find that a permanant, crippling injury doesn't enhance your life either. Nor is it fleeting.

Distance is everything. Also, this thread is silly.

Erik
11-14-2001, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
Aikido can never be just dancing or moving meditation for then it becomes something else.


I had to reread this a couple of times. The word just makes a whole bunch of difference.

I would also say that Aikido can never be just throwing and falling for then it also becomes something else.

andrew
11-15-2001, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by [Censored]

By all means enjoy yourself, but God help you if someone comes with a trained attack. You may find that a permanant, crippling injury doesn't enhance your life either. Nor is it fleeting.

And if a comet should hit the earth......

I don't worry about being crippled by attackers, generally speaking. If I did, I would have to be considered paranoid. If you train to prevent this, where does it stop? Could you ever feel satisfied that you were safe? I don't think so, and I don't think I'll lose much sleep over it.

It should be pointed out also, because it is implied otherwise, that enjoying training does not necessarily make it ineffective. I would imagine that anxiety over being attacked is not going to result in a training that is necessarily more effective. (Please observe that a few test cases and some generalisations do not a rule make or prove.)

andrew

unsound000
11-15-2001, 07:16 AM
Ian [/B][/QUOTE]Obviously Aikido is designed for everyone, but knowing how to strike, kick effectively is important as well as being fit, strong and fast. I don't know why many people in Aikido balk at the thought of serious excercise.

Kenpo was my first art. The guys on these threads that talk as if aikido can easily handle any combative situation need to wake up. There are a lot of other arts out there that have things to offer and many of the same principles as aikido regarding balance, economy of motion, centerline, joint manipulation, harmony, etc.
If you want to flow and fight from any distance then you're going to have to know hitting, punching, etc. I think people that balk at serious exercise are lazy and afraid that there is more to learn. They don't want to admit that they might be missing something
by choosing aikido but every art has it's weaknesses.

[Censored]
11-15-2001, 02:14 PM
And if a comet should hit the earth......

If the probability of your being attacked is the equal to the probability of being hit by a comet, then I expect quite a few New Yorkers will be moving to Galway, Ireland.

I don't worry about being crippled by attackers, generally speaking. If I did, I would have to be considered paranoid. If you train to prevent this, where does it stop? Could you ever feel satisfied that you were safe? I don't think so, and I don't think I'll lose much sleep over it.

Yes, I train to prevent it.
No, it will not stop anytime soon.
No, I have no illusions of safety.
No, I don't lose sleep over it either. Why would I, when I've done everything I can do?

It should be pointed out also, because it is implied otherwise, that enjoying training does not necessarily make it ineffective. I would imagine that anxiety over being attacked is not going to result in a training that is necessarily more effective. (Please observe that a few test cases and some generalisations do not a rule make or prove.)

Who is anxious? If you are not willing and able to save yourself first, you will be in no position to save your friends and family, much less an attacker.

Here's a test case. I hope it never becomes relevant to you. Dismiss it if you like.

You are on a business trip to a neighboring town. While you are there, you decide to take in a class at the local Aikido school. One of the skirts there considers himself an expert in martial arts, and he doesn't like the way you fall. How dare you waste his valuable time? So he puts you in position to land directly on your head. You have 1/3 second before it's all over.

All your best intentions, and your reasonable precautions, weren't quite enough.

Are you trained for the best case, or the worst case? How will you enhance your life, here and now?

PeterR
11-15-2001, 02:30 PM
There are a large number of poeple practicing Aikido that are not really concerned with anything but the collection of fighting principles and techniques.

There are others where the Do is important but little difference is seen between Aikido and other Do.

There are those that are into how Ueshiba's take on religion was interpreted.

The common denominator is the martial technique. I would never tell any of the above that they are not doing Aikido.

Originally posted by Erik


I had to reread this a couple of times. The word just makes a whole bunch of difference.

I would also say that Aikido can never be just throwing and falling for then it also becomes something else.

Erik
11-15-2001, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
There are a large number of poeple practicing Aikido that are not really concerned with anything but the collection of fighting principles and techniques.

There are others where the Do is important but little difference is seen between Aikido and other Do.

There are those that are into how Ueshiba's take on religion was interpreted.

The common denominator is the martial technique. I would never tell any of the above that they are not doing Aikido.


So what is the difference between Daito Ryu or Hapkido and Aikido?

PeterR
11-15-2001, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Erik


So what is the difference between Daito Ryu or Hapkido and Aikido?

Well that is a whole new can of worms.

Differences in history, emphasis, and influences.

I would toss in a whole rash of other budo into the question including judo and kendo.
No great expert on the various arts but it has been pointed out that there is nothing particularily unique about Aikido both in the techhnical and philosphical sense.

[Censored]
11-15-2001, 05:59 PM
So what is the difference between Daito Ryu or Hapkido and Aikido?

The types of fantasies favored by the novices.

PeterR
11-15-2001, 06:06 PM
:D Beautiful - can I adopt that as my own.

Originally posted by [Censored]
So what is the difference between Daito Ryu or Hapkido and Aikido?

The types of fantasies favored by the novices.

Erik
11-15-2001, 08:10 PM
[i]Originally posted by [Censored]So what is the difference between Daito Ryu or Hapkido and Aikido? [/B]

The types of fantasies favored by the novices.

Ouch!

Erik
11-15-2001, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
Well that is a whole new can of worms.

Differences in history, emphasis, and influences.

Ah, therein lies the answer: Emphasis and influences. The great mystery in all this is what was Ueshiba's intent in creating Aikido?

daedalus
11-15-2001, 10:25 PM
Ahem.


Aikido works.

Other arts work.

Aikido will work against ANY attack, even if YOUR Aikido or any Aikido that you have ever seen or dreamed of won't. It's not a set of techniques, it's a group of principles that are in most arts. These principles can be applied. YOU just have to learn how.

ALL arts are the same. There are many paths up a mountain, but everyone at the top sees the same sky.

andrew
11-16-2001, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by unsound000
Ian

Kenpo was my first art. The guys on these threads that talk as if aikido can easily handle any combative situation need to wake up.
[/B][/QUOTE]
The same goes for one of my teachers, who did six years of kenpo before he took up aikido. He did aikido for four years, he says, before he actually accepted that is could be very effective.
He also says that not long before he was due to start thinking about his first dan grading he went and trained at another school (in another town) and realised that most of the 4th kyus were better at aikido than him. (He.. em... postponed going for shodan for awhile and started training there too)

What you're saying is quite true (for instance, aikido does not as far as I can gather prepare you for NHB) but I get the feeling that you're blaming the art for the a lot of the artists...

andrew

andrew
11-16-2001, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by [Censored]
So what is the difference between Daito Ryu or Hapkido and Aikido?

The types of fantasies favored by the novices.


I only know aikido novices, but I'll take you word for it.

Somebody told me that Daito Ryu doesn't have the tenchi principle, or rather that O Sensei came up with it himself.



andrew

andrew
11-16-2001, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by [Censored]

I don't worry about being crippled by attackers, generally speaking. .

Yes, I train to prevent it.



Is this your chief focus? Do you regard this as the main benefit? Is it the reason you train?
For me it's not, and I don't think training in Aikido chiefly for these benefits makes sense. There's better, faster arts for these results. Which is not the same as saying you can't use aikido for this, obviously.

We're arguing at cross purposes. How can you argue that I need to train in case somebody tries to injure me when I train? Your arguments logical conclusion is not to train in aikido because you may train with somebody who will injure you. The paradox, of course, is that a trained attacker will apparently go for me oneday and disenfranchise my life pleasure by crippling me. It's a VICIOUS CIRCLE (and so is this post.)

Agggh!

andrew

akiy
11-16-2001, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by andrew
Somebody told me that Daito Ryu doesn't have the tenchi principle, or rather that O Sensei came up with it himself.
From what I've felt, a good o-soto gari that doesn't rely purely on the leg sweep is pretty darned close.

-- Jun

andrew
11-16-2001, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by akiy

From what I've felt, a good o-soto gari that doesn't rely purely on the leg sweep is pretty darned close.

-- Jun

Perhaps it is. The teacher may have exagerrated a bit to focus our minds on the principle. (Random, verbatim quote: "So if he went to the trouble of including this, it must be pretty important...")

andrew

[Censored]
11-16-2001, 08:25 PM
Is this your chief focus? Do you regard this as the main benefit? Is it the reason you train?

No, I am not strictly or primarily concerned with fighting skill. Unfortunately, I have found no way to skip over this step and travel directly to an enlightened state. ;) The evidence I have seen, suggests that it is impossible. Every person I have met who attempted this, has neither self-defense ability nor spiritual insight, only delusions. What a terrible waste.

We're arguing at cross purposes. How can you argue that I need to train in case somebody tries to injure me when I train?...
It's a VICIOUS CIRCLE.

No. Life is a vicious circle, but this dialogue is not. :)

I am only reminding you that you are always in danger, even if you only venture outside your home once a month to practice the "gentle art". When trouble comes for you, would you rather meet it with skill and experience, or hopes and wishes?

PeterR
11-17-2001, 10:27 AM
First I quickly say is I like this response very much - only pointing out that there are many paths to enlightenment beyond the martial. There are many other "Do" which have that goal in mind (ie. Chado) which have no connection to violence not to mention the various flavours of Bhuddism.

I agree completely that if you are going to take the martial way (Budo) you must grasp the devil by the horns. Talking about it is not going to get you there.

Peter (master of typedo)

Originally posted by [Censored]
Is this your chief focus? Do you regard this as the main benefit? Is it the reason you train?

No, I am not strictly or primarily concerned with fighting skill. Unfortunately, I have found no way to skip over this step and travel directly to an enlightened state. ;) The evidence I have seen, suggests that it is impossible. Every person I have met who attempted this, has neither self-defense ability nor spiritual insight, only delusions. What a terrible waste.

We're arguing at cross purposes. How can you argue that I need to train in case somebody tries to injure me when I train?...
It's a VICIOUS CIRCLE.

No. Life is a vicious circle, but this dialogue is not. :)

I am only reminding you that you are always in danger, even if you only venture outside your home once a month to practice the "gentle art". When trouble comes for you, would you rather meet it with skill and experience, or hopes and wishes?

Erik
11-17-2001, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
I agree completely that if you are going to take the martial way (Budo) you must grasp the devil by the horns. Talking about it is not going to get you there.

But you have to talk about it, focus on it and work towards whatever it is that you seek. Otherwise, you merely bend wrists and fall down a lot.

Do you become a better father by swinging a bokken or do you become a better father by working at becoming a better father? If you hope for Aikido to provide a better something then you've got to work at, tailor and look at your Aikido practice in a way that is supportive of those efforts.

This means going into very uncomfortable places and it does not necessarily involve increasing the martial dose of the practice. That is actually very easy for most guys to do because it's very safe in that world. We're used to fighting, so we just refine our skills at it until it doesn't look like we are fighting anymore. You don't have to engage either your partner, the world, or yourself in any meaningful way. You get to do what you've always done, pretty much in the same way you've always done it.

The same thing applies to the other extreme where people go through happy motions because it's safe and comfortable. They refine that because it too becomes a way to avoid engaging in anything meaningful.

Terry Dobsen used to do an exercise where you had to stand in a circle while everyone outside the circle complimented you. As the person in the center you had to thank them for the compliment and remain centered while doing so. I've watched many people react to a compliment as an attack. They deflect it, block it, resist it, or whatever. It takes work, groundedness, and often courage to really accept the compliment and the person giving the compliment. In fact, it requires profound courage to engage another human being in this manner.

Are you saying that such a practice woven into an Aikido dojo's curriculum is not Budo? That it doesn't sharpen the spirit? That it would somehow weaken a student?

Waiting for the flamethrowers.

Mike Collins
11-17-2001, 04:28 PM
You hippy dippy, new age sissy, Men's movement, John Blye listening, "touchy-feely" types tickle me.

Budo is about killing the ego, not letting it become healthy.

You gotta work, work and more work if you want results. This stuff is all about pain, mister. What are you anyway???

Oh sure, you say you want to be a complete person, well that ain't gonna feed the colonel's bulldog mister!!

More cuts, more pain, twist more wrists, make more people fall. Then and only then, will you be a martial artist.

Or maybe there is another way thats good. I don't know

tedehara
11-17-2001, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Scott_in_Kansas
...Anybody got an opinion on this?

Scott in Kansas
Several years ago, there was a guy who already had a black belt in another martial art. He joined our dojo he said, because he had gotten beaten by someone who supposedly used Aikido on him in a mixed-styles tournament. He practiced for a few months and then disappeared. I just hope he got the training and answers that he wanted.

PeterR
11-17-2001, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Erik
But you have to talk about it, focus on it and work towards whatever it is that you seek. Otherwise, you merely bend wrists and fall down a lot.]I agree completely Eric and in fact that is one of the reasons I am on these lists. It helps me articulate what I've learned from my teachers and opens my eyes to the wider Budo world. I will say that the physical and mental training in the dojo goes beyond merely bending wrists and falling down (I know you know that) and that participation on electronic forums is not necessary for the developement of ones Aikido. I think my original point was that the focus of your training should be on the dojo - what lies beyond mere technique - discussion is a minor part.
This means going into very uncomfortable places and it does not necessarily involve increasing the martial dose of the practice.

Are you saying that such a practice woven into an Aikido dojo's curriculum is not Budo? That it doesn't sharpen the spirit? That it would somehow weaken a student?
I think I am agreeing with you again. Not exactly sure so bear with me. I am sure that going into non-Martial uncomfortable places can improve your Aikido - if they are designed to strengthen the students spirit. Some people find a lot of benefit to Misogi for example, the Do afterall is a journey of self perfection.

I must say that in all Japanese Do there is a complimentarity of thought and action. They really are not separate - it is how they are approached which defines the Do. In Chado self perfection is achieved by mixing a bitter green froth and then lying about how good it tastes ;). In Aikido it is learing a set of seriously dangerous techniques and the mental disapline to apply them. That is the path. Once the martial is removed from Aikido it is no longer Budo.

Erik
11-19-2001, 01:28 PM
Peter, I'm not arguing for the removal of the martial side, so we're ok there.

I grew up in Aikido, so to speak, in an environment that freely intermixed the martial with the touchy-feely. I see both as integral parts of developing my Aikido. I don't think, for instance, that you can be on the mat solely working on technique and have it produce anything other than technique. Conversely, touchie-feely by itself doesn't get you very far in producing technique either. My belief and experience tells me that both are a necessary part of the process and that they are complementary to one another.

So that's where I'm coming from.

PS: Touchy-feely in my world, isn't necessarily, "ooh, I sense your karma is out of balance and your aura reflects that with it's yellowish red tint". Rather, it's a way of enhancing empathy, awareness, sensitivity and more through the practice of Aikido. Things, which theoretically, should enhance one's Aikido not detract from it.

PeterR
11-19-2001, 03:51 PM
Thanks Erik

unsound000
11-22-2001, 05:53 AM
Originally posted by daedalus
Ahem.


Aikido works.

Other arts work.

Aikido will work against ANY attack, even if YOUR Aikido or any Aikido that you have ever seen or dreamed of won't. It's not a set of techniques, it's a group of principles that are in most arts. These principles can be applied. YOU just have to learn how.

ALL arts are the same. There are many paths up a mountain, but everyone at the top sees the same sky.

I agree with everything you said except that last bit. All arts are not the same and many do not even focus on developing spirit. In fact, I'm not even sure what you mean by same sky...I think the thing that a master of the arts must have is lack of fear. They do not fear other people, pain, weapons, etc. Now, beyond that there is a shit load of difference in that sky. I've known a korean master that was like Darth Vader and other masters that were far less dark...They taught with totally different philosophies on life.

Thalib
11-22-2001, 07:33 AM
Lack of fear? I have to disagree with that. People who does not have fear or lack of it will act recklessly. It is because of fear that one is good in defending oneself.

The difference for the people that are experienced (I say experienced because I don't believe that anybody has mastered the arts, no matter what grades thay are), they have the ability to control their fear, fear does not control them.

Remaining calm in any situation is the key. Being calm is often mistaken that one is not scared of anything. In order to be calm, one has to recognize the fear, accept it, and reach a resolution. The fear is there but it doesn't bother that person, therefore he/she will remain calm and not panic.

The basic of all proper martial arts are the same, it's the people that teach them are different. I believe that Brian Lapins put it nicely... in the end we will all see the same sky.

Self-learning is just as important if not more important than in dojo instruction, in order to see this "sky". I, myself have experienced this, even though, I am still a beginner in the arts.

ivan
11-24-2001, 08:47 AM
There are always causes and results in this whole world, for example energy is everlasting and cannot be destroyed..
everything has a weakness and strength..
For aikido , scarifice some tactics..like dangerous killing and rough ones for a good point like the ability to protect ur oppnent..
A weakness which is also keeping mai [distance] from ur oppnent..
Wherelse NHB fighters train to kill or maine..
OF COURSE THEY WILL BE GOOD IN THAT!!
they chose their own road , by for that they lack the ability to keep peace with oneself and harmony..
THerefore i must say that u cannot put this two arts together , there have different directions for their art..
AiKIdo might not survive in a ring , which i must say is true ...for the enclose area, WHich is also a advantage of a nhb fighter ,
But do u think they can do better than a aikidoka in different suitatons?
So i must say nhb is better in the ring but they also lack in somethings which aikido is good in ..
ALso i must say that ever though aikido cannot be as effective as killing arts THATS ALSO ONE REASON WHY WORLD WIDE ARMIES DONT TRAIN THEIR UNITS WITH AIKIDO , but they can be the best supplement to a martial artists like for speed in they side stepping and throwing ways ..
So dont always think of desvasting arts , or what they can do ..
instead think of how u can improve urself by learning the various arts, taking alll their strength and leaving out their weakness,, thats a true all round martial artist..
:) :ai: :ki: :do:

Jim ashby
11-24-2001, 09:19 AM
Iriminage will kill you. Forms of Kaitennage will kill you. Shihonage will kill you.Etc etc. There are some units in the armies of the world that do teach Aikido, they just don't advertise the fact.
Have fun.

Duarh
11-24-2001, 12:59 PM
If we're talking about the effectiveness of aikido. . .

Lots of people are claiming it takes a long time for there to be a fighting use for aikido. Well, I'm pretty new to it, but I would still disagree. First, aikido gives lots of self-confidence to a completely non-MA guy even after a few months of training. And you DO need confidence in fight. Second, at least me, it has given an idea of What Hurts. And most street thugs, at least here, in Latvia, are not really trained in Karate or Thaiboxing. What Hurts can do for them, even if it takes a lot of fumbling at first.

Everyone disagree? :)

Duarh

davem
11-24-2001, 07:18 PM
Ivan I have to disagree with you.
With more 'armies' switching to peacekeeping roles within the world more and more they are teaching their soldiers aikido tai chi and other so called "Non killing" arts.
Truly think about what aikido is teaching you, not only to be more centered physically and mentally, but if we look at just the techniques. Any throw where the person being thrown lands on their neck or skull can kill. Any pin can easily end in death, but... not every punch or kick can kill. Whether or not Aikido can work in a fight is irrelevant to the art, it is fully dependent on the practitioner. I feel aikido is much more closer to a fully lethal art then people would understand. I'm fialry new to it, but after examining the empty and non empty handed techniques it is plain as day. Without the centering or discipline... if this was taught like fast food tkd.... there could easily be legions of killers using these techniques. You learn to use sticks, knives, swords, baseball bats, bottles writing utensils among other things as killing weapons when you take this art.
So why couldn't this standup to nhb? Seriously, I think this art could put a real hurting on the nhb world.

-D

davem
11-24-2001, 07:25 PM
After reading my post I have to add to it too.

Erik's previous posts are right. We strive to learn to be centered in mind and body. (personally I think the compliment thing is a great idea. I've learned I have to get rid of my ego in order to accept a true compliment.)
I you are centered, aware, and emphatic you can understand when someone is trying to cause a problem, and you can diffuse it before it happens. I don't like NHB I think it's lame. Personally, I think it is more impressive to make situations into non-situations. How can fighting be good if people get hurt? It can't be. Also anything that allows you to fully explore yourself is good, and for that reason I am in Aikido.

Good day folks. I'm going home.

-D

unsound000
11-25-2001, 02:38 AM
Everything you said makes sense. I just don't know what you mean by proper martial art. What do you mean by proper? Maybe you mean moral? Who is Brian Lapins? Maybe I can read what he wrote and appreciate what you are saying better..

The basic of all proper martial arts are the same, it's the people that teach them are different. I believe that Brian Lapins put it nicely... in the end we will all see the same sky.

Self-learning is just as important if not more important than in dojo instruction, in order to see this "sky". I, myself have experienced this, even though, I am still a beginner in the arts. [/B][/QUOTE]

shihonage
11-25-2001, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by Duarh
If we're talking about the effectiveness of aikido. . .

Lots of people are claiming it takes a long time for there to be a fighting use for aikido. Well, I'm pretty new to it, but I would still disagree. First, aikido gives lots of self-confidence to a completely non-MA guy even after a few months of training. And you DO need confidence in fight. Second, at least me, it has given an idea of What Hurts. And most street thugs, at least here, in Latvia, are not really trained in Karate or Thaiboxing. What Hurts can do for them, even if it takes a lot of fumbling at first.

Everyone disagree? :)

Duarh

Hey, I used to be a citizen of Moldova back when it was Moldavia and Latvia was also part of USSR, if I'm not mistaken ;)
So we're kind of neighbors. Were. Sort of.

Yes I think that Aikido can be extremely dangerous... most of all to those Aikido practitioners who haven't ever been a target of a violent confrontation and so have developed false self-confidence about their physical ability to protect themselves.

Duarh
11-25-2001, 09:03 AM
<Yes I think that Aikido can be extremely dangerous... most of all to those Aikido practitioners who haven't ever been a target of a violent confrontation and so have developed false self-confidence about their physical ability to protect themselves.>

1) I have (been)
2) I'm gonna run away if it's possible
3) In the worst case, it will work on the kind of 17-year-olds you get on Riga's streets

Regards,

Duarh

shihonage
11-25-2001, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Duarh

1) I have (been)
2) I'm gonna run away if it's possible


It's good to know that.

Jim23
11-27-2001, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by PeterR
That's the joke - its like "I always lie".

By the way I believe that the basic principles and effective self defense can be taught quite quickly in the Aikido context - it just boils down to training methodology.

The infamous KISS principle and a limited number of techniques. Expand slowly but surely into the entire repetoir over time but you really don't need a hundred variations and iriminage to defend yourself.


Boy, people here catch on pretty quickly.;)

Aikido works best when your attacker isn't a professional MMA fighter and he doesn't expect you to aikido* him. If he is and does, then you'll be in for a tough time.

*aikido* him
Verb. Similar usage to "I'll judo you" or "the police wrestled him to the floor"

Not to be confused with aikido used as an adjective. I have a nice aikido-gi.

Never mind.

Jim23

shihonage
11-27-2001, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Jim23


Boy, people here catch on pretty quickly.;)

Aikido works best when your attacker isn't a professional MMA fighter and he doesn't expect you to aikido* him. If he is and does, then you'll be in for a tough time.


I believe that when you're thinking of "Aikidoing" someone, your attempts will fail miserably no matter how good you think you are.

I see Aikido as "helping" the attacker, not forcing him to do anything that he can resist to. The attacker is throwing himself, for as long as his attack is continuing.

I believe that at a certain level at least some Aikido practitioners realize that and actually start to physically manifest it - blending and what it's all about.

Andy
11-28-2001, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by Jim23
Aikido works best when your attacker isn't a professional MMA fighter and he doesn't expect you to aikido* him. If he is and does, then you'll be in for a tough time.
The same can be said about any other martial art...

Jim23
11-29-2001, 04:47 PM
You mean that they can also aikido people?:D

Jim23

Mike Collins
11-29-2001, 09:15 PM
Hey, If you try to Krotty them and you try to judo them and you try to kungfu them and all of that fails, all that's left is to aikido them.

Unless you know how to ninja them

Steve
12-20-2001, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by mariko nakamura

SNIP
It was also said that we generally defend ourselves against poor attacks. I'd also like to say that most of the Aikidoka I know have all studied Karate,Judo and Kendo in school. So the attacks are very professional and very real.
SNIP

During practice, if one of your dojo mates connected with a punch, would it be hard enough to break your cheek bone? Knock you unconcious? Has anyone in your dojo tried to kick you in the groin with full force? Would you be seriously injured during kotegaeshi if you didn't move to protect your arm? If you did not respond in time to a yokomen strike, would you suffer a head or neck injury that would require medical attention? Are any of us truly defending against real attacks in the dojo?

shihonage
12-20-2001, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Steve

reality

Q: So practice, then, is a series of progressive approximations of reality and sometimes they reach reality?

A:Well, to be perfectly brutal, I don't really like the way you are wording that. Only in the sense that ... I mean it's true, but it's going to give people the wrong idea. That is to say, here again, it is real. All the way when you're really practicing Aikido on the mats with me, it's real no matter who I'm with any time.The difference is when you're able to practice it at a high enough level, you can't get into something that is more, you know, no holds barred. In other words, you don't have to restrain yourself from going into the things that are more dangerous. It's real in the sense that no matter how much a beginner you are on the mats, if you do the wrong thing, you're going to get hurt.

If a beginning person comes up to me and he says, "I bet I can hit you in the face" and he hits me in the face, there is a chance that that person might end up on their head and they might not know how to fall. There's another chance that they'll end up softly down on their back without getting hurt.

Q: So they are not approximations of reality, but rather;they are reality based on the student's own ability?


A: They are real .. different levels of reality, exactly, see the difference? The key phrase is, "It is all your level of ability." O'Sensei was known to always have said, "Ai te no chikara awasu and what this means, loosely translated, is that you have to practice at the ability of your partner, and it always has to be the stronger and more adept person that has to adjust to the less adept, for obvious reasons. If I try to go as hard as I can with you, Joe, you're probably going to die, you know what I mean.?


Q: Yes!

A:And I don't think that anybody should ever think that just because I am practicing with a 14-year-old kid out there that I'm not doing real Aikido or that this kid is not doing real Aikido. Because, it is real Aikido! They're doing the very best that they can.When we talk about levels of adept-ness, that's a different story, but the same thing does hold true. When somebody's trying as hard as they can to punch you, and trying as hard as they can to do the technique right, I'm trying as hard as I can too, to do Aikido with them, no matter what level it is. The ugly reality is, and it is just as beautiful as it is ugly, is this ... in Japan, as you now well know, for the first two years that I had my dojo, forgetting about problems that I had with the Mafia, yakuza, or anything else, because I was the only Caucasian that had taught in Japan, I had people every day, trying to, what Westerners would call getting a cheap shot or hit me from behind, whatever, trick me, get one in on me. Quite frankly, even if I wasn't white, there is a tradition among serious Martial Artists, that is to say, if you don't demand a real situation, a real atmosphere in your dojo, where people are able to go hard, and they do go hard, then your practice becomes, in my opinion ineffective. Like, for instance when somebody in an Aikido dojo says OK ... and they stop here (pointing to the end of his nose). They go to punch you and they'll stop before they hit you.When you attack me you better come to really grab me, you better come to really punch me, you better come to really kick me, or I'll get really upset, because then, you are ruining Aikido, you are ruining the practice, and then yes; there is no reality, and there is then a different approximation of reality because you are playing games. Am I making sense?


Q: Yes.

A:The only other thing that I can say here is that traditionally in other dojos, you'll find a lot of different teachers trying a lot of different things a lot of different ways. It takes time for the beginner, in order not to get hurt, to be able to go fullbore at Aikido.

It does not mean that before he can go full-bore that he is not serious and that he's not trying as hard as he can, or that what he is doing is invalid in any way.In other words, somebody might be able to punch me and kick me as "fast as'anybody, but he can't take the fall afterwards. So, because of that we have to alter the practice. What it is, is that we have to adjust to the strength and the level and the different aspects of levels of ability of the student. It is back to "Ai te no chikara awasu."

Now maybe he's a great Karate Shodan and a great fighter, but maybe he just can't take the falls. So I'm not going to be able to throw him, or I'm going to hurt him. This doesn't mean to say that he's not going to be able to attack me seriously either. The only thing that a student like that shouldn't do is; they shouldn't try to sneak up on somebody and give them the best the have from behind or whatever, because then you don't necessarily know who it is behind you and you go to throw him or her, you know what I mean I mean there are situations where they have to be careful.

..snip...

When I go from dojo to dojo, sometimes for example; I see people attacking each other and then I see the Uke falling before he's even been thrown, falling before he's even touched. How could this possibly have anything to do with Aikido? O'Sensei always said "Aikido wa budo de aru." And what I felt he really meant was, "This is a martial art and if it doesn't work, take up aerobics, take up dance, or take up a gun. But don't call it the Martial Arts." Aikido is a Martial Art. OK? I think that there are Aikido dojos in America that have damaged the name of Aikido and many of my different friends that I respect and are Karate Masters, and Kung Fu Masters, say Gee ... Even a lot of my students became my students by accident because they had seen Aikido and thought it was a joke. They saw people randomly taking falls for each other.I think that the two of you here can testify that you've really tried to hit me, and you've really ended up on the mat and you know that it's the real thing because it hurts, and it works.Basically, what I feel is that you have people practicing like this in many places because they never learned it before in the first place.

O'Sensei said that the basics should never change. So when you don't know your basics, and then you try to make it up as you go along, it starts to resemble something that ... doesn't even resemble Aikido.O'Sensei always talked about shinken shobu, or fighting to the death, or at least with that feeling. So that if somebody lives, fine, and if somebody dies, that's too bad, either way. It's that seriousness of life or death that's lacking with many people and they end up making it a play.. Aikido is not a play.You know, I used to hear stories of O'Sensei. People were trying to kill him constantly. Many times he was faced with death. Many times people tried to kill him. They didn't try to punch him, they didn't try to throw dirt in his face, they tried to kill him. You know there's a difference. And that's why O'Sensei's Aikido worked.


(from an interview with Steven Seagal Sensei).

Steve
12-20-2001, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by shihonage


BIG SNIP

(from an interview with Steven Seagal Sensei).

I wondered why that message was so incoherent until I saw the last line.

Arianah
12-21-2001, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Keith R Lee
If there aren't any injuries occuring in your dojo, it might not be a bad idea to ask yourself how realistically you are practicing.

I don't think that injury should be the standard for which we base the "reality" of our practice. If you have enough control of your technique, there shouldn't be an exorbitant amount of injuries in a dojo. Just last night, I nearly threw my uke head-first into a wall, but I was able to pull my throw back to keep him from doing so. Yes, I could have just kept going and smashed his head into the wall, but I don't see how this would have made my Aikido more realistic; just more reckless and brutal. I see what you're getting at, but I don't think that if in someone's dojo people aren't getting seriously hurt, that they should feel inadequate and like fakes, and certainly no one wants to encourage (even subconciously) inflicting injury because it makes the practice more "real." Injuries do occurr, but they should be seen as an unfortunate side-effect of practice, and not something to "strive" for. I know you don't mean that we should be purposely hurting each other because otherwise we're faking it (at least I hope you're not :p ) but comments like that, interpreted the wrong way could have a negative impact. It is a tricky subject, because we want to train honestly, but at the same time, don't want to put everyone in the dojo in the hospital.

Arianah

Abasan
12-21-2001, 12:34 PM
Yes, I could have just kept going and smashed his head into the wall, but I don't see how this would have made my Aikido more realistic; just more reckless and brutal.

if you did that, you won't be much of a nage. Plus, every nage will have to be uke at one time or rather, and what goes around comes around.

JasonDelucia
11-27-2002, 11:56 AM
regarding scott 's question of aiki in NHB

my name is jason delucia ,and i was in the

first and second ufc's.i have also fought

more than fifty professional fights in japan.

i have studied aikido intensely

for many years and now consider my self to be

proficient enough to execute it in any forum

but the truth of professional fighting is

a corupt phenomena.

for example the barring of certain

moves and attitudes to insure the success

of the event 's primadona.most of such

practice is done behind closed doors just

prior to the event.and it is effective

enough to curtail the effectiveness

of something as beautiful as aikido.

further more it denigrades the abilities

of the true martial artist who spent in

excess of twenty years to forge a system.

because they can create A TITO ORTIZ

in one year by simply shaping the rules to suit his limited style ,lie about his weight

and steroid use.

and when i say barring of certain holds i mean it . for example i fought in

UFC J against JOE SLICK .The contract

we agreed to ''just''before the fight

said that ''SMALL JOINT MANIPULATION OF

THE WRIST AND NECK WOULD NOT BE LEGAL''

this single rule virtualy wiped out the

ability to perform aiki in this event!

this is nhb?no ,it is insurance.

when will the rules of such an event support the use of aiki?

either when there are enough people who can do it ,so that one fighter cannot demand high prices for performances,or when the powers that be have secured the owner ship

of such a talent.

i consider that i have only recently been able to apply aiki in nhb , because as any one knows who does it ,it takes a million years to be proficient,as it truly is a synthesys of all arts .

every system has as it's guts every other system.but as long as steroids ,sex ,and egotistical ignorance are cheap and marketable these pornographers will not legitimize the true arts.

keep the faith

jason delucia





:)

Roy Dean
11-27-2002, 01:11 PM
Wow.

Jason,

I know exactly who you are, and have much respect for your fighting abilities. Not only were you willing to go to the best to test yourself, but you've trained under the best and pushed yourself even further by fighting professionally. I'd still have to say your kicks were the fastest to ever be executed in Pancrase. Beautiful and lightning quick.

I'm disappointed in reading your accounts of corruption in NHB competitions. The steroids are a given, and I've heard many accounts of last minute contract additions/ modifications, especially in Japan.

I still think it's possible to use aiki in NHB competitions, though. Not necessarily the techniques of Aikido, but the circular movements and blending (which, IMHO, is what Aikido is really all about).

While I don't "admire" the technical aspect of Tito's game in NHB, it's hard to argue with his effectiveness. Even if gained through "supplementation", his attribute development is amazing,

By the way, I picked you to win over Joe Slick in UFC J. Your injury was a fluke accident, and I had difficulty watching it.

I'm interested in hearing more about your experiences, in particular your training with the Lion's Den.

Great to have you on the forum. I look forward to future posts.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

paw
11-27-2002, 02:15 PM
Jason,

Welcome to the forum.

I saw your fights in the UFC but never followed your exploits in Japan (Pancrase events, right?). While I appreciate your comments and admire your willingness to test yourself in the ring and in the cage, I confess to being concerned about some of the statements you make in your post.

In particular, I was under the impression the UFC did drug checks (wasn't Barnett stripped and suspended of his belt for failing a drug test?) and I was under the impression that cutting weight was commonplace (in the same way it is for wrestling, judo, weightlifting and so on...). Clearly you have more experience in this than any of us here on the forum, so if you contend that I've bought a hollow marketing package from the promoters, I would defer to your judgement.

Roy and Jason,

No one can deny that Ortiz is a formidable athelete physically. However, reading your posts, I gather that you feel Ortiz is lacking technical skill.

Could you both elaborate on that further? I'd be very interested in your perspectives.

Regards,

Paul

PS

Roy --- saw you sparring with Boa on the new BJJ dvd. You looked good, bro! How long have you been a purple belt?

Roy Dean
11-27-2002, 06:06 PM
Paul,

Perhaps I should have been more specific when I was referring to Tito's game. Do I think he's lacking in technical skill? No. All ranges of his standup are superb (punches, kicks, Thai style clinch), plus his Greco takedowns are very tight and virtually unstoppable.

It's Tito's ground game that I'm not partial to. Tito knows BJJ (cross trained at Joe Moreira's, plus with his Team Punishment fighters Ricco Rodriguez and Fabiano Iha), and knows how to avoid submissions. His awareness level is very high, and he's trained himself to deliver punishing blows from within the guard for long periods of exertion (he said he can pound a guy for 20 minutes straight against the fence and I believe him).

Even his guard passing is good (did you see that slick pass over the leg of Shamrock?). That said, he never goes for submissions... which is what I admire most in MMA competitions. I must admit I'm partial to guys that go for the tap. Guys with a submission based game like Carlos Newton and Minotauro and Bustamonte are the ones that I admire. It's a personal preference, but I feel that's where the beauty of the game is most exemplified.

Tito knows submissions, but almost never goes for them (going by memory here, so I might be mistaken. I also saw his Abu Dhabi performance, and even there it appeared that he wasn't a "submission" fighter at heart [esp. when contrasted to somebody like JJ Machado]). Of course, if you're dominating the match and don't need to risk a positional transition to enter into a submission, then it's smart to not take the risk. So I understand why Tito plays his game. Why mess with a winning formula?

I feel similarly with Matt Hughes. Both are amazing atheletes, with technical savvy to boot, but given a similar size ratio to Minotauro vs. Sapp, could Matt Hughes or Tito Ortiz pull off a victory? I don't know, but I'd certainly like to witness an answer!

I do not question their effectiveness or technical ability. However, I prefer an aggressive submission based game over a submission negation based game.

Thanks for the props on the DVD. I got my purple this summer and am still trying to grow into it.

Paul, I always enjoy reading your posts and perspectives. If you're ever in the San Diego area, be sure to drop by the Harris Academy. You have an open invitation.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

Bruce Baker
11-29-2002, 01:46 PM
I don't know what we need to do with those of you interested in showing prowess and fighting ability .... except to let you get some fighting experience to get it out of your system?

I thought most of you have realized by now that Aikido is not the whole puzzle of martial arts, but a piece of it ... even if it is a key piece.

No one martial art will protect you.

(for the one thousandth time ...)

Remember this and much more will become clear.

You take what works for you in martial arts training so that you can protect yourself, protect your life.

I am getting a little tired of the "My martial art can beat your martial art attitude."

Why should we even develope martial arts if weapons make the bigger stronger man? There is an irony in trying to correct the misconceptions of those who haven't had to fight for their lives in one kind of situation or another ... or being in a situation where you are overcome by superior fighting skills and must use tact or dirty tricks to extricate yourself.

After reading six pages of mostly non-sense,( with a few words of wisdom from those who have "been there, done that"), I am wrung out at the stupidity of narrowmindedness that dominates this thread.

Aikido is not specific to what is taught in our Aikido classes. It is an additional addendum of learning that adds to our knowledge from training in other martial arts. So long as you can add to your arsenal of defense or offense, who cares what style it comes from?

It is not very Aiki to pigeonhole pay per view events with everyday life. If your pay per view is that important in validating Aikido then go train to fight in those events and stop theorizing about what could be or couldn't be.

As for the mention of finding someone to train with when you are 6'6" tall and 280 pounds .... I am only six feet tall and that weight, but I will practice with you. Besides, I am getting tired of being gentle with these little guys under 220 pounds.

The only problem with tall guys is that they forget to bend their knees deeply enough to get the feeling that smaller people get to make their smaller size effective.

As far as BJJ? Yeah, it is the artist and not the art that makes the difference. Pity they don't allow a bit more Aikido, but then there would be so many more serious injurys, wouldn't there.

paw
11-29-2002, 05:55 PM
Roy,

If I understand, you're not a big fan of ground and pound, which is Tito's and Matt's forte. Gotcha. I totally understand. Submission is much more elegant and final to me than ground and pound as well.

(Thinking aloud, there's a number of fighters that are leaning towards ground and pound these days... Lawler, Liddel, Hughes, Ortiz, Trigg, Militech... It seems like the only people that work for submission have a strong bjj background) It would be very interesting to see Ortiz or Hughes facing a big weight/strength difference. I'd also think it would be interesting to see either of them on their backs! Although it seems like all of Tito's opponents are fantastic match ups on paper, Tito's been extremely dominating .... but I've digressed.

Thanks very much for the invitation to San Diego. When fate allows, I'll definately take you up on that!

Warm Regards,

Paul

JasonDelucia
12-02-2002, 11:12 AM
Jason,

Welcome to the forum.

I saw your fights in the UFC but never followed your exploits in Japan (Pancrase events, right?). While I appreciate your comments and admire your willingness to test yourself in the ring and in the cage, I confess to being concerned about some of the statements you make in your post.

In particular, I was under the impression the UFC did drug checks (wasn't Barnett stripped and suspended of his belt for failing a drug test?) and I was under the impression that cutting weight was commonplace (in the same way it is for wrestling, judo, weightlifting and so on...). Clearly you have more experience in this than any of us here on the forum, so if you contend that I've bought a hollow marketing package from the promoters, I would defer to your judgement.

Roy and Jason,

No one can deny that Ortiz is a formidable athelete physically. However, reading your posts, I gather that you feel Ortiz is lacking technical skill.

Could you both elaborate on that further? I'd be very interested in your perspectives.

Regards,

Paul

PS

Roy --- saw you sparring with Boa on the new BJJ dvd. You looked good, bro! How long have you been a purple belt?

JasonDelucia
12-02-2002, 12:17 PM
jason here ,

with regard to tito ,it is true

as he goes he grows,technically and physically

with regard to drug testing,sure they test

one guy to say they are doing it ,but it's

all show .first of all there are so many ways to block steroid tests with other drugs,

not to mention the big time users are all doing growth hormone which ,because it occurs

naturally in the body there is no way to test for it.

as for titos stand up game ,

anyone can kick pads and look the part,

like any one can ''twirl a sword''

it's use in reality is different

i hear the kid say '' i know thai boxing ,and i know ju jitsu ,like he went

out and mastered it over the summer.

show casing himself this way is smart business, but whats the reality.i'ld say

let's see him stand up with chuck lydel,

or jason delucia...thats right!

and as for his ground game.,lets see him

do his version of '' jujitsu''

(drug enhansed wrestling)

against a real jujitsu practitioner

(jason delucia)

let s not forget frank shamrock's wrestling

teacher was ken shamrock but his jujitsu

teacher was ''jason delucia''thats right!

in fact he brags about going through the lions den but forgets to mention frank

shamrock whos ju jitsu is marginal at best,

but frank won didn't he.

that was an aspect of his technical

lacking that gets hidden by his strategy.

that he does stand up with a wrestler

and wrestles the stand up fighter.

and what i mean when i say jujitsu,

i'm refering to aiki jujitsu .

in keeping with the forum

some one says that he doesn't believe

suwari waza would be effective in nhb

''eee thank you for playing''

that it takes a very long time to learn

makes it seem that way ,but it is just

the system that would make guys like tito

look like beginners.

if you doubt it, ask tito if he wants

to fight about it.winner take all ,then youll

see a real fight .

i ve sacrificed many things to learn

a true system ,and aikido is it .

some fighters like to say ''they'' are the greatest ect.but i tell you it will be a

system not a man that will be superior.

back of a true system is a spirit,

not an ego ,a spirit!

if the good people at zuffa

want to keep the spirit of martial arts

in the event ,an original ufc martial artist

(jason delucia) will be glad to show tito

all he aint .so ''tito''do all the drugs

you want i have kokyu

and long after your body succumbs to

steroid related illness

kokyu power will be keeping us real martial artists alive

to bruce baker ,always remember ,

they say that when he used a ''ken'' it became

an ''aiki ken'' and when he used a ''jo'' it became an ''aiki-jo''

aiki is like uranium,theres a little of it every where ,even tito uses some aiki

to the degree that you distill the power out of your waza you aproach the traditional

forms the more power used the more deviant

the form.

sore ga kakutoka no seishin ryoku de aru jason delucia

Talon
12-02-2002, 02:47 PM
Jason!

I just did a little research on your fight history and found a mention that you challanged Steven Segal at his Dojo back in 1992. Is that true? and if so how did that match go?

here is the quote i found " In 1992 in response to his direct challenge.  Jason went to Los Angeles to challenge Steven Segeal to a fight in his Dojo. (Harua Matsuoka)"

Pardon my simplistic approach to this but I just had to ask. Also, your back ground is primarily Kung Fu right? How long have you been training Aikido and are you still involved in proffessional fighting...

Thanks,

Paul

JasonDelucia
12-03-2002, 05:57 PM
hi paul,

yes i did go and challenge steve segal

in his dojo ,standing in for segal was matsuoka harua a very nice man,who put up

with my visiting his dojo morning and night

studying while i awaited segal's answer.

you see it was segal who said in black belt magazine ,''anyone who wants to fight me , come to my dojo'' so i did.

he never responded but i persisted

for months.interestingly enough it was rorion gracie who told me, i could have been hurt .

shows what real fighters think of aiki

but i have been studying aikido right along

and through my fighting career i have been transforming my self to aiki only style .

as that is the only way to do aiki efffectively.

i still fight ,in fact since the birth

of my son i have not fought in well over a year .and much for the better ,for the time

away from fighting i was able to transmute

and make the final leap.while before my fighting suffered due to the conversion

now it will be something un worldly

no one has as yet done traditional aikido

in an nhb environment, i will be the first

and maybe the onlyin my life.

it's true i started with other styles

but to me it's like automobiles .

they may not have started in japan

but as of right now the best models are

from there.

akiy
12-03-2002, 06:12 PM
Hi Jason,

Welcome to the AikiWeb Forums! I appreciate your sharing with us your experiences in the "No Holds Barred" competitions and such; it's quite interesting, and I hope you'll continue to share with us your thoughts and experiences.

Just a quick technical pointer, though. When typing up a message, you don't need to hit the "return" key when your cursor nears the right-side of the text box. Just keep typing! That way, the text won't be broken up into separate lines like your posts are but, rather, will be more compact and readable.

Thanks,

-- Jun

JasonDelucia
12-04-2002, 10:46 AM
first to darin hyde .i know why it is many people feel that the ''seasoned'' aikidoka would not do well in ufc,but it is slightly misleading.first because to be ''seasoned''

you must be a martialist as well as artist.

99%of practicing aikidoka are not truely

seasoned but artisticly seasoned(i don'tspell very well)it would not take a great deal for them to make the leap,but i'm sure per their station in life they see no need.similarly there are many bjj people who currently teach the art but would be destroyed against a ''seasoned'' ufc practitioner.well,as a seasoned ufc practitioner I will be using aikido in my next nhb fight ,and in validation of this truely great thing that mr.ueshiba gave to everyone,it must happen this way.

let me say to those who say that ''this genre of martial arts will pass away''let's remember history.jigoro kano who was a teacher of ueshiba formed judo from the same situation a hundred years prior.but in order for this to happen he devised a tournament between the existing ufc types and his own group of true elites like SHIRO SAIGO ect.the team lead by kano dominated devastatingly so.from that, the elite martial artists taught the lower case jujitsu techniques ie.sport judo ,bjj,sumo....while hiding the superior techniques ie.suwari waza daito ryu, kito ryu,shinkage,hosoin,yagyu,taksan ga aru............anyway it's a hundred years later and i have been doing what needs to be done .i wish (and i'm hoping through this forum)there are enough real aikido practitioners out there with enough faith to step up and repeat history.i would add that i beleive history will repeat it self except at the moment there is not enough faith and support ,but if you really want it to happen, besides writing in this forum you must patition ufc to subsidize a true test between the tradional aikido team (my self and any one who is able,let's do this)and this group of ''antiaikidoka''(drug enhanced wreastlers,and some very talented martial artists as well)but as a professional fighter i asert aikido is the highest form,and as much as o sensei was apposed to competition he never refused a challenge,especially where it would serve a greater good.the greater good in this case would be to retore humility

and respectable behavior first off,and to show

something inspirational instead of it's antonym.who do they consider to be the best in this forum ?bring them on !and whos with me ?let me know before i leave let me thank those whose writings videos and following i have made use of to bring this about (i'm sorry if i misspelled their names ,but i 've been hit in the head a bit)OMITTING THE OBVIOUS:MATSUOKA HARUA, STEVEN SEAGAL, KENSHO

FURUYA,YOSHIMITSU YAMADA,KENJI TOMIKI'KOICHI TOHEI,O SENSEI TAKANO AZABU AIKIKAI,RINJIRO SHIRATA,GAKU HOMA,BRUCE KLICKSTEIN,JOHN STEVENS,MORIHIRO SAITO,SHIODA GOZO,JAMES MITOSEI, HI IL CHO,SOKAKU TAKEDA,JIGORO KANO,KYUZO MIFUNE,HIROSHI IKEDA ,MAS OYAMA,KANAI ,EGAMI,MIYAGI,WALLY JAY,AND ON AND ON but they warned me about using to much space so in gasho PS. this is a time to do more than just talk ORGANIZE!

KEEP FAITH JASON DELUCIA

Talon
12-04-2002, 11:25 AM
Jason!

Thanks for the enlightfull posts on here. I am really glad to see someone of your caliber on these forums. You mention that you feel comfortable in using Aiki now. How long have you been training Aikido?

I'm just wondering because I'm still a beginner and would like to see when should I expect to feel proficient in using Aikido in a real life confrontational situation.

Paul

Roy Dean
12-04-2002, 04:16 PM
Jason,

That's what I respect most about you, your willingness to lay it on the line and experience for yourself what others only speculate about.

Aikido is an amazing martial art. It's changed my life and I've witnessed it transform the lives of others. For development of specific attributes (namely sensitivity and timing), Aikido is second to none. The techniques are martial and genuinely effective, but in my humble opinion, highly situational, and I simply do not see these situations happening in an NHB environment. This is my opinion on a topic I've thought long and hard about.

Shiro Saigo defended the honor of the Kodokan using yama-arashi (going by memory here), a Daito-Ryu technique that Obata Sensei demonstrates clearly in his book "Samurai Aiki-jutsu". A good technique, a devastating technique, but it's a technique that:

1. Is dependent on a gi.

and

2. Exposes your back to your opponent.

Even Mochizuki, who cross-trained when few others did, was unable to emerge victorious in challenge matches in France when limiting himself to only using Aikido. So, he would switch it up and use Judo or Karate according to the situation. Ueshiba was unconcerned with Mochizuki's lack of success, because, in my humble opinion, he had a different aim.

I believe the techniques of Aikido are physical metaphors for Ueshiba's philosphy of non-violence. The principles of Aikido can be applied in all arts, including MMA competitions. However, the techniques themselves have limited application in that environment.

Perhaps you can go to Sankyo if someone is trying to choke you from behind, but by and large the techniques practiced in a "typical" (and I know there's a lot of variety in that word) Aikido class are too dissimilar from an NHB match. What Aikido techniques will prepare you to escape from a heelhook, or flat on your back and smashed up against the fence? The principles apply, but not the techniques.

If you do enter another NHB match representing Aikido, then know that I'll be cheering you on. I think you're a very skilled individual, and well rounded martial artist. I'm glad that you've found Aikido, and are injecting new life and martial vitality into this elegant, timeless art.

Good training to you,

Roy Dean

bob_stra
12-04-2002, 09:07 PM
Even Mochizuki, who cross-trained when few others did, was unable to emerge victorious in challenge matches in France when limiting himself to only using Aikido.

.
I'm interested in getting more information on Mochizuki (esp. in regards to above challange matches). Can anyone clue me in / post an URL?

chadsieger
12-04-2002, 10:41 PM
Jason,

Thank you for your interesting and quite unique input. I don't follow NHB fighting, so I'm sorry to say that I had not heard of you before today. I do look forward to hearing of your future success in the ring should you decide to return. Fatherhood is a challenge in itself!

Being from the Northeast, if you ever come near Eastern Pennsylvania (Allentown) I would like to invite you to our dojo. Although we don't promote "NHB" fighting (unless attacked of course:D), I'm sure that we (our dojo and you) would both benefit from your visit.

Anyway, in Aiki, the door is always open.

Sieger

JasonDelucia
12-05-2002, 11:53 AM
roy,it is true to an extent about yama arashi,

but some will say that ''mountain storm''apllied to the frantic vigor with which saigo combined gi choke with sweeping

hip throw'' blitz kreeg'' might have been as

apt a name ,but in truth if you 've ever seen this throw done with out a gi you'ld see that you neither expose your back or need a gi to perform it .for acurate translation of this throw it would be best to go to an eagle claw kung fu style,because it exists only as kuden

in aiki circles,

with regard to your belief that aikido is metephor only,no.because they practice without the benefit of the extra curricular training that gave the true power

to the technique,ie logging ,farming,sumo

the practitioners effectively preserve and

pass on the knowledge without necesarily being completely effective.it is true you need to know enough of the ground work in case ,but there comes a time that you never decend to the lower realm.this is natural,

basically you don't need to go lower than seiza.but the chances increase that you might

when dealing with sport ,because for example if you've ever sat in some ones guard in seiza

and the reff admonishes you to ''not be defensive''you understand.or simply stand up

and wait for your opponent to stand instead of going into the lower realm s ,and if your in the lower realm it is the principle of kokyu that takes you back to the higher realm,then stay there.bridge and roll is a kokyu waza.we tend to think that mr.ueshiba did not do ground work ,untill you see photos of his kata gatame.also remember when you refer to someone resorting to karate when his aiki failed?karate is a pillar of aiki and i quote.atemi is 99% or 66% of aikido. but theres one way for sure to see if i know what i'm talking about,who do you think? the best fight for me to show it on would be ''chuck liddel''a real martial artist

JasonDelucia
12-05-2002, 11:59 AM
chad sieger ,i'm sometimes near allen town

thanx for the invite, perhaps in the future

Talon
12-05-2002, 02:53 PM
Jason!

How long have you been training Aikido?

Paul

marcus_vinicius
12-12-2002, 01:22 AM
hi paul,

yes i did go and challenge steve segal in his dojo ,standing in for segal was matsuoka harua a very nice man,who put up with my visiting his dojo morning and night studying while i awaited segal's answer.you see it was segal who said in black belt,''anyone who wants to fight me , come to my dojo'' so i did.he never responded but i persisted for months.interestingly enough it was rorion gracie who told me, i could have been hurt.shows what real fighters think of aiki
Jason,

Its a honor replying to you!

Regarding Segal, since he made the invitation on the Black Belt Magazine, why woudn't he accept the challenge. Is he a real Aikidoka? What style does he practice? I've heard rummors that, in a film set, he challenged anybody to attack him. Gene LABelle who I believe is a Judoka (correct me if I'm wrong) went up to him a choked him a couple of times. Do you know anything about that? If that is true, I've seen you fighting, how would he hurt you?

What other martial arts styles have you practiced and for how long?

Do you have plans to fight NHB in the future?

Best of Luck to you and your family.

Marcus Vinicius

JasonDelucia
12-12-2002, 09:58 AM
to marcus vinicius,thanx very much,first to be plain ,i consider that all styles wind to have the same ability ie. muay thai fighters

and burmese bando would be be comparable to two sword style but the younger sportsmen of the same style tend to be single sword fighters,while penjak silat tend to have many of the same leg strength conditioning as a mid western wrestler ,which amounts to all systems adress suwari waza at some point ,and all have some where in there kyu koshi nage and atemi is un avoidable.(and as always yoga)

thank god for healing my body.

with regard to steve seagal,yes he is the real deal,i heard from a very reliable

source the story more or less as you did,unfortunately i have not had the honor of

meeting either man(lebelle or seagal)but both are true budoka,to draw a metaphor lebell i think would be takeda sokaku and seagal might be koichi tohei (relative to each other)

yes i will fight again thanx for your interest .i will be the first traditional aiki

do manifestation in nhb

jason delucia

Talon
12-12-2002, 02:36 PM
Jason Delucia....

Please answer my questions of how long are you training Aikido and when you realized that you can use it effectivelly in a real fighting situation.

I am a beginner still and want to get an idea of how long it will take me to be able to feel confortable in using AIKIDO in a combatative situation.

An oppinion of a person with your martial arts experience is so important to me.

thanks,

Paul

uke78point5
12-14-2002, 04:04 PM
Welcome jason I'm a fan and an aikido student. However you just made some extremely serious allegations about TITO. LOL @ this. If you want to call FUTA1 out AND accuse him of juicing (which is bull) you know exactly where to do it. In fact I'll save you the time of going there, and invite those gentlemen onto this forum to join the discussion. FUTA1 himself might even drop by for a laugh. Seriously dude. You're a great fighter but calling tito out on an aikido message board is weak.

regards daryl percy

uke78point5
12-14-2002, 04:33 PM
according to el guapo on the UG, who knows jason delucia, you are not jason delucia. nice troll though.

Matt Lee
12-14-2002, 08:52 PM
My Name is Matt Lee. I know Jason Delucia and that was Jason because I have trained with him.

I don't know who El guapo is but He abviously doesnot know Jason.

I am also MMA fighter and participated events like Pancrase, FightZone,MassDestruction and Ring of fury. I have trained under Jason from 1997 until 2001 with fighters like Hagar Chin(Pancase vet), Jorge Rivera(Current HOOK and Shoot champ) and JImmy Hattory(Pancrase, MassDe, fightZone, also pro MUay thai bout).

Let me tell you something about Jason. He is the most well rounded Martial artist/fighter that I have ever known. and I have seen mamy so called masters and wanna be fighters.

He is a real deal. He can box and kickbox like pro Muay thai fighter. He can wrestle and trust me on this,he can roll, bjj/sub wrestling.

Ever since I stop training with him(due to

a personal reason),I have been

doing bjj and i got my purple belt in about 18 months. I have participated 2001 panAm and rolled with many good bjj balk belt and I still think that he is one of the best that i ever roll with.

Talon

Since 1997 till 2000 that I trained with him, most of his sparring with us was him doing akido while we punch and kick or try to take him down.

I really don't know much akido to describe you what technics that he used mostly but

He can really use his akido in really situation against trained fighters.

PS uke Do you really think that Tito doesn't use any kind of steroids

uke78point5
12-15-2002, 12:17 PM
Matt, no I do not believe Tito uses roids. As everyone knows he is a natural heavyweight who is expert at cutting for weigh-ins.

It is very serious to accuse a professional athlete, and moreso a champion, of steroid use.

You know exactly where to find tito and many other fighters on the internet: the Underground Forum. He is there daily. If you really are Jason Delucia and you really want to accuse Tito of juicing and call him out, go there and do it. "FUTA1 I call you out." Or "FUTA1 you juice." That should get his attention. By the way, I am a jason delucia fan and I DON'T believe you are really him. Jason Delucia has fought world class competitors like Kondo. I do not believe he would accuse another pro fighter of juicing and call him out on an aikido message board, no pro fighter would do that.

JasonDelucia
12-16-2002, 11:43 AM
talon,i have been training in the aiki kyu for 11 or twelve years .but let me say that in training the aiki you get a little of it from every thing .i.e.some one gifted in tennis or hockey who under goes an identical aiki regimen as some one with out these experiences will naturally have a percentage more ability in some ways .and now with video study our expectations have grown.with regard to being comfortable and competent ,things like ring generalship, fortitude,and experience only come through training and study.no easy answer but remember this''the attacker must vanquish the defender must merely survive'' .

Talon
12-16-2002, 01:23 PM
Jason !

Thanks for all the input!

Good luck in your MMA career. I'm sure we all will follow your upcoming fights and please post your upcoming matches on here so that I can make sure I dont miss them.

Paul

JasonDelucia
12-19-2002, 11:49 AM
daryl percy,it's nice that you are a supportive fan ,it's interesting that you would contend that i'm not who i say i am,

but i'll adress you anyway.first let me say that i have been to the underground forum,

and i am not in the least impressed by clique-ish comentary with little or no substance .

ego based rhetoric aimed at glorifying the the shallowest aspects of martial practice which incidentally will kill the sport they profess to love.incidentally i do not make acusations in this case ,i state facts .

in my career i have been ''job boy''.if you don't know the meaning of that term it would explain why you don't know about athletes and steroids,growth hormone plus a variety of other enhancement drugs which can't be traced directly if at all .that's the difference between a fan and a player.with over fiftey documented fights (not to mention numerous behind close doors)my experience is a huge threat to the existing ''backed ,sponsored primaDona types''.i have had heard from ''representitives '' of certain organizations (ufc)that they would'nt consider me because no one ever heard of me .well having been in ufc 1 and 2 how the heck could that be .it's just the kind of garbage they throw around in business to justify passing you over .

by the way ,here is an example of a job boy's duty.they tell you you have a fight with their pri madona ,then they tell you to ''work your heel hook in training ,that's his weak point''so you spend a whole month training the way they told you ,and 4 days before the fight they inform you that heel holds have been made a foul.now what ?that combined with every sleeze method of subverting your efforts because your not the primadona,such as tito is.you can always tell the primadona like a guy who has never been in a ufc gets a title shot first time ,gets beaten soundly and still wins the fight?

it usually serves a dual purpose of building new stars while simultaniously robbing the existing one of his contract(power)SUBJUGATION!The only thing someone like me can do is to educate a group of people 50% of which probably believed pro wrestling to be real .

finally ,you say calling tito out on aiki web is weak ?i think you just admitted that you do know that it is jason and your previous assertion was intentionally misleading.the only way to have it be a true test is for complete martial artists to compete.as was originally the premiss of the ufc .i once again assert that the only new technology that will change the current trend in technique will be a very old one.as i don't believe certain forums recieve ideas equally with respect this forum is intelligent and open ,i would be glad to respond to tito here ,but i will not attempt to deal in forums where the basic technical reference can begin with f***s***a************ s***.ect.

ps.to my friend matt lee thanks for every thing

locknthrow
12-22-2002, 02:15 AM
ok Instead of asking if it is really you (which I don't know how you could prove either way) How about this??? How did you develop an Aiki defense for an extremely low shoot? Like an ankle pick? How about for a wrestler that doesn't bend over when he shoots in? And also for the jab? These are all questions that ran through my mind when I think of an aikidoka in a NHB fight. Oh yes, also how will wearing those gloves effect grabbing their hands for something like nikkyo? Not trying to flame you or anything these just seem like they would be hard to get past. privately email me if you want

Mike

uke78point5
12-22-2002, 01:06 PM
Let me again preface this by saying all respect to jason delucia even though I don't believe you are him. Tito does not need to respond to anybody. He is the champion. Challengers go to him, not the other way around. Also there are many pro fighters on the underground forum such as mikey burnett, josh barnett, royce, tito, dana white from zuffa, there are too many to mention. It is not just a bunch of kids talking trash.

regards, daryl percy

Michael Brown
12-22-2002, 08:19 PM
Why is everyone seem so worried about this? "Our School Can Beat Up Your School," type mentality? Is it some kind of martial arts envy? It would seem to me that Aikido works. Maybe in any given situation, someones version of Akikido doesn't work, but Aikido does. It takes a long time to understand and master the fundamental priciples (I'm still working on them!)that O Sensei so deftly demonstrated. O Sensei said that Aikido already existed in the universe, he didn't invent it. So if we properly apply Aiki basics of the universe in a martial situation (last I checked, all points on Earth are part of that universe; all laws of physics still apply here), then Aikido will work perfectly. Tohei Sensei said that there were 1000's of arts IN Aikido, and depending on how you are attacked calls for the application of different arts; this is essentially Aikido. In sports or UFC type things, there are rules and things you can and cannot do. In a real confrontation the attacker may go after you in any possible manner. If you understand techniques only on the concious level (in any art, for that matter), they won't serve you well in a real fight. So keep on working on the perfection of the basics so you can use them without concious thought.

Resistance is useless!

Michael

JasonDelucia
12-23-2002, 04:09 PM
first i'll say that it's true that the rules of nhb do the most to take aikido from tachi to ne waza which would be the hardest manner to execute ,because aiki stresses balance and posture of defined form to relieve yourself from form(takemusu)so that when you perform

in ne waza you can easily be lead into a kokyu only situation (with confined sabaki)

i too wondered about the ability to use against things like lead jab and single leg take down,high crotch,ankle pick ect.but remember that all those techniques are also part of the daito ryu and judo kyu.in fact ,one of the cleanest renditions of irimi tenkan hanmi handati i learned from a great american wrestler TIM LAJCIK ,his duck under high crotch is no different technically.i saw him warming up for weigh in before his fight with marcello tiger pancrase tournament it was slick as ice , i asked later on a bus ride and he explained it .as for reacting to real striking techniques as opposed to sword hand in practice ?it's one reason ''i think ''that you can't find any footage of men like RINJIRO SHIRATA .(it's a secret)but what caused me to devote my professional fighting career to conversion was that the comissioner of pancrase took me to the hombu dojo to watch only .of course he called ahead to explain a professional fighter would be coming to see .what i saw was awsome.let me say that theres more to it than just what you see in the manual.most of the techniques i have learned i had to bastardize words to write my own kyu ,but so does every one else at some point.most people don't imagine the amount of absorbtion required to do what mr.ueshiba did ,and no it would not be the best thing to teach someone who has to go to war quickly,in fact you'll be worse off when you begin ,and for a long time after .it's much later on that it pays off.remember mr.ueshiba did not do this over night,but he did standardize it to be possible to replicate .as for control holds with gloves ?yes gloves are a problem ,but it's workable.thanx for good tech. challenge jason

JasonDelucia
12-23-2002, 05:00 PM
to daryl,it's just that the maze at U.G is cluttered.to many people this is fun,to me serious fun.i think it is best to stay technicall in nature and there doesn't seem to be a great deal of that going on at other forums.many fighters truely need to make bad blood before they can bring themselves to fight.i don't ,but if people care about aikido(mike brown)and if they care about the survival of what should be a great and honorable sport (tito ortiz)this would be the best way .let me explain.once in japan after i beat ''minowa''a second time ,TITO was in attendance.after my fight the press asked if i would want to fight tito.i said no.the reason for me was one of asthetic(marketable)it would simply be boaring at that stage of both our games .i was well into aiki conversion ,and was actually in a degenerating phase .to be honest i still think i would have won.it's obvious he's a force but so is everyone.that say something about what someone does to get by in training (it's technical not personal)tito does not have to challenge any one thats true but he knows at one time the fixings for him vs me were ready and he wanted to say he beat the lions den,well to tell the truth, the best for last. you cannot tell by the event who is the best of the group .and way before he ever fought any of the den ,i schooled them all .any body who denies that wasn't there .but we also schooled each other.that tito lost to frank was a suprise to me.but it secured my belief that i could beat tito that much easier (because to me frank is like a little kid in fighting)you ld never know it from watching who was pancrase champ or what ,but that's show biz!i believe that my purpose is to glorify this thing to which people like'' tank abbot'' say it's bull.that is the voice of ignorance and i know he doesn't fully believe it ,because once i saw him try a toe hold ,as if that came spontaneously.but i think that the best thing i could achieve is to validate this thing that so many strive to be apt in but so few have the chance .finally you've admitted again that you need to be enlightened ,so here gos.if you really know 'bas' tell him that ''my grand father want's his bycicle back,and i wish him and his family 1000%happiness,and oh ya your welcome,and thanx''if he says i'm not after this then he is not el guapo.

ps. i learned thai aiki from 'bas rutten and maurice smith 'muay thai chi chuan'

jason

JasonDelucia
12-23-2002, 05:21 PM
mr.brown,i can tell you are a peacefull man

and are as most aikidoka ,in love with the art and that's enough for you ,but please consider this .every young person who turns to ufc to learn what is manly ,honorable and effective ,then it's that many more souls that get to be inspired as you and i are .but if we say that no attempt should be made to do this and be the example that people like mr .ueshiba were they wont believe thus they wont be inspired the right way only the wrong one .the reason it has to be done through aiki is obvious.it's the only way to perform this miracle in our life time .if you leave it alone little kids are going to try to be like the most dominant figure of the most believable forum.the reason why in asia that respect permeates the behavior as a rule is that constant effort is made to keep military courtesy especially in things like sumo .

the only way to achieve what you want is to wipe it out ,which as you can see is not happening ,or to go and set the example.i know not every school is equiped that way but i do know that there are people like me who are .it's the least i can do.

by the way is it true?steve seagal will fight inoki?see what i mean?please suport this

jason delucia

locknthrow
12-24-2002, 01:23 AM
Thanks for your reply it is very interesting. In your reply to me you mentioned Daito-Ryu. Have you studied this art also? If so did you feel like Aikido lacked something you would need in the NHB world? Or did you just take an interest in it. I have always been extremely interested in Aikido and its place in NHB. Some time please take the time to explain what ii is you do to defend an ultra low shoot.

Thanks in advance

Mike

locknthrow
12-24-2002, 01:30 AM
Oh yes one more thing...what exactly did you mean when you said that the pancrase guy took you to hombu dojo and called ahead to say a pro fighter was coming? Did you go to Pancrase Hombu dojo or Aikido? you said you saw things there that made you think there is more to it than whats in the training manuals. Did you mean more to Aikido or Pancrase? Sorry I just got confused in there as to what you meant.

locknthrow
12-26-2002, 12:42 AM
Ok one more thing too. I found demo footage of Shirata for sale with a quick alta vista search. What kind of footage are you talking about you can't find on him?

mIke

Jimmy Hattori
12-27-2002, 11:56 AM
Hello, Jason.

First of all, I really want to thank you for your help. I wouldn't be standing where I am without valueable lesson from you. Thank you.

Recently I have been having "small" enlightenment each time I train. For example, to improve my punch, my focus used to be merely on my fists. But nowaday, those attention have been shifting to elsewhere of my body that doesn't seem closely realted but are significantly important. There are a lot of things that you taught me that I couldn't comprehend at the time I was taught, but now one by one, it start coming together.

Thank you, Jason. Thank you very much.

JasonDelucia
01-06-2003, 10:21 AM
jimmy (taylor)hattori,

hisa shiburi ,thank you too ,i think soon i will go and visit everyone keith, jorge,matt

every one has made something big out of something small ,but something newer and bigger is coming(karada o kowasanai mono wa,

jibun o tsuyoku suru)hopefully we can all hook up soon .jason

JasonDelucia
01-06-2003, 10:58 AM
mike iaintellin,first let me clarify.i was taken to the aikido hombu dojo with the pancrase comissioner.with regard to daito ryu,it should be studied in adjunct to, not as suppliment for aikido,as it is a core technique of aikido.with regard to the low shoot ,please know that the knee strike is a valid technique in aikido ,like mr. trigg did against mr. machado in a fight in japan which i attended. i think it's relevent to know that it's possible to do any technique against a low shoot but it depends on the propensity of the fighter ,i personally would lean away from doing a knee strike but don't rule it out.

as for video of mr.shirata,i personally went to alta vista to see that there were only books and no video and further more i have coresponded with some of his surviving representatives who said,there is in fact NO PUBLIC FILM of him ,save some sequenced picture animation in books ,but no film.

but perhaps you know something new on how to recieve this information i would love to see it .i think every one on the aiki web would also.thanks ,talk to you later.

jason

locknthrow
01-07-2003, 02:32 AM
I'll go back and check again to make sure I knew what I was looking at..maybe I had the wrong guy. It was being sold out of a small dojo. It was video of him teaching some classes. I wasn't trying to say you were telling a fib or anything like that. but Rinjiro Shirata that is the correct name right? Is this the same guy who taught John Stevens for a while?

locknthrow
01-07-2003, 02:41 AM
www.scpvideo.com/aikivid.html

I think this is the one I had found, its late here so if its not I'll get back on it in the morning

Kensai
01-07-2003, 11:38 AM
Shirata Sensei taught John Stevens Sensei.

Regards,

locknthrow
01-13-2003, 02:18 AM
Was www.scpvideo.com/aikivid.html the right link to find film on Shirata?

looks right to me????

JasonDelucia
01-15-2003, 11:18 AM
i believe that you might have done it.

to be sure i'm looking into getting a copy .let's hope so . thanx alot.

jason

JasonDelucia
01-15-2003, 11:30 AM
to leslie lee,i want to say that in part that it is true that an aikidoka that makes his living as a teacher need not fight to prove anything .but you forget ,perhaps ,that men like ''sokaku takeda''made their living from fighting and teaching,and so unfortunately we have not and will not evolved out of the practice of competition ,as it is where we came from .i'm sure that there are many who are good enough do compete ,but have no need .but as for being young and unwise ,if it were a retro-judgement with a consequence,there would be no aikido to speak of.

Talon
01-15-2003, 02:19 PM
Jason Delucia, do you have any dates in mind for when you will compete again in the UFC or other similar event?

I want to make sure that I dont miss such an event since I really want to see your performance and use of Aikido.

Thanks,

Paul

L. Camejo
01-15-2003, 09:02 PM
Jason, how exactly do you plan to use aikido in UFC, since wrist locks and pressure points are viewed as fouls?

http://guidesarchive.ign.com/guides/14160/rules.html

Wouldn't this limit a few of your options?

Thanks

L.C.:ai::ki:

locknthrow
01-16-2003, 12:25 AM
No problem....what exactly was it that you were saying they were trying to keep secret on him? Or did I get the wrong idea?

paw
01-16-2003, 06:04 AM
Larry,

"Small joint manipulation" is the manipulation of fingers and toes. More specifically, one cannot attempt to break fingers and toes. Wrist locks are legal.

The infamous "pressure point rule" is a PR rule --- fear of the pressure point of instant death. As written the pressure point rule is a huge grey area. If someone is punched in the temple and KO'ed was that a pressure point attack? In practice the rule is commonly held to be unenforceable. It has not and will never be applied.

Regards,

Paul

JasonDelucia
01-17-2003, 12:44 PM
larry,oddly eneough the ufcj which i fought in was the only one which i'd ever heard of this ruling,but with regard to the use of aiki i think it would manifest itself as the 'atemi' aspect first of all and probably not reach the conclusion of 'osae' beyond ''nage''.based on how you would have to conduct things to keep the ref's influence out of the fight this would be the easiest way

JasonDelucia
01-17-2003, 12:47 PM
paul,nothing as yet with regard to fights,but as soon as i know ,i'll let everyone know.

Johnny Chiutten
01-22-2003, 05:37 PM
Hi Im just new to this forum.Im a combat instructor and from my experience any situation, environment that has sets of rules like UFC, Boxing, Karate competitions are only good for those who train specifically for their chosen touirnaments. It is only natural that how we react in this circumstance is how we are trained in the dojo. So my point is for an Aikidoka to enter a NHB tournament is like leading a lamb to the slaughter. Also the opposite is true if you enter a Karateka into competition Aikido.

Also many martial artists seems to be disillusioned to what actually works and what does'nt. In war or on the street there is a distinct difference between real and what we would like to be real. Through a deadly process of attrition useless knowledge is disposed of. What you are left with are survival skills.

Doing (Randori) pre-arranged sparring techniques is as close to pure choreography as you can get, many students are led to believe that this will work in the real world. This is a dangerous fallacy. Police reports have shown that an untrained 100lbs woman with a knife can slice a trained Martial artist to shreds in seconds.

Its fine if you are learning Martial arts for sport, Mind training,Health and Self Discipline or any other reasons, but train unrealistically and you cannot fight for real. As obvious as this concept is, often it is still neglected in Martial arts training; and many school still concentrate on the superfluous instead of the essential.



It is a sad fact today that what we call Martial art has no ( Martial)Quality anymore. Yet many people are led to believe by so called masters that they are training for the real thing.

Sincerely,

Johnny Chiutten

MattRice
01-22-2003, 05:51 PM
I pretty much agree with the above (Johnny Chiutten). It depends on how you train, how honest/experienced your teachers are. One thing though, randori (at least at our dojo) goes from partial pre-arrangement to full on anything goes. It's the part that ISN'T choreographed. I suppose the definition of randori varies, however...

ian
01-23-2003, 05:17 AM
Thats the best post I've read on realistic training Johnny - I'd absolutely agree with it all. I have recently changed the way I teach aikido to focus initially on the techniques which become effective most quickly, and also help to establish damage limitation. From the real experience I've had its always the basics that pull you through and though many techniques look great in a kata or a dojo, simple techniques and principles which you can do instinctively are life savers.

Ian

JasonDelucia
01-23-2003, 05:26 PM
speaking from experience ,if you try to use pure aiki in professional fighting your disadvantage would be many .the only way to show truely would be this....

get the biggest most dangerous guy in fighting ,provided that he will attack and not also be defensive(as the one doing the aiki must be in defensive mode )and i promise that no man alive will beat the aiki guy .

but it may mean that there will be a defensive conclusion but in truth noone will beat the aiki guy .i've wanted to test this publicly ,but often times (because you're payed to mix it up as fighters)the ref admonishes you to be offensive .but in an untainted situation aiki works just fine.any time you'ld like to see just get me a fight and i'll show you.(please try to make them indoor fights ,cause one time my shoe came off in the snow and eh....)

shihonage
01-23-2003, 05:33 PM
I especially like the ending of your post, Jason. :)

blackburnaj
01-23-2003, 06:54 PM
One thing keeps poping into my mind when reading these posts.

I really find it difficult to find many ukes who are willing to attack with any kind of intent. Let alone the intent of one of those UFC guys. I may be young also, but no one seems to want to sweat either. I am definately not making blanket statement!! Just in my humble experience, I am never grabbed strong enough or with enough intent. Even when I ask the supper big guys to grab hard. I would love aikido attacks with the spirit of a lion. Anyway.

locknthrow
01-24-2003, 12:21 AM
Two questions:

(1)To Jason: what was supposed to be secret aobut Shirata? I mean why were people not wanting you to see his films?

(2)To Ian: So what techniques have you found to work best?

bob_stra
01-24-2003, 01:12 AM
In regards to what johnny wrote, I'd like to add my opinion that aikidoka should concurrently train in a harder style if such training is not available at their dojo. I think it makes one much more mindful of what's really happening when they're under attack.

I think judo is a unique adjunct to aikido because it shares some similar methods of power generation, while adding aliveness to training via randori. (and of course, styles like yoseikan retain some judo techs).

Johnny Chiutten
01-24-2003, 10:43 PM
Love to see you do this Jason. Why dont you get someone and capture it on Camera. Then you can show all of us in the forum how its done
speaking from experience ,if you try to use pure aiki in professional fighting your disadvantage would be many .the only way to show truely would be this....

get the biggest most dangerous guy in fighting ,provided that he will attack and not also be defensive(as the one doing the aiki must be in defensive mode )and i promise that no man alive will beat the aiki guy .

but it may mean that there will be a defensive conclusion but in truth noone will beat the aiki guy .i've wanted to test this publicly ,but often times (because you're payed to mix it up as fighters)the ref admonishes you to be offensive .but in an untainted situation aiki works just fine.any time you'ld like to see just get me a fight and i'll show you.(please try to make them indoor fights ,cause one time my shoe came off in the snow and eh....);) ;) ;) ;)

Fiona D
01-25-2003, 04:49 AM
Going on from Bob Strahinjevich's comment - certain jiu jitsu styles can give some good full-on hard randori too. I'm not thinking so much of the grappling styles in this particular case, but of the defensive styles which may be a little more aikido-esque in their approach (meaning, in this context, a designated nage and a set of ukes, rather than any kind of sparring). In the style that I train, the 'randori' consists of nage being faced with a succession of attackers (either one at a time or, at higher grades, 2 or more at a time), and having to use the throws, locks, strikes etc. in their repertoire to deal with them and disarm them.

This is often done at fairly high speed, with attackers being sent in slightly faster than nage can deal with them. Attacks are encouraged to be strong and on-target; there are punches of various types, kicks, (plastic) knives, coshes, chains, bokkens....

There's a very real feeling of 'if I mess this up I'm going to get hurt' when you're in there as nage, and you never know what kind of attack is coming. It can be (and is in fact designed to be) pretty stressful, and shows us what we're capable of when the going gets tough.

Johnny mentions the reality of knife attacks; I remember being told this right up front by my first instructor, who informed us all that if someone comes at us with a knife, we are almost certainly going to get cut. I've always appreciated that honesty, and advanced training with the plastic knives (where we sometimes work with slashes, combinations, stalking and feints) serves to keep a good sense of perspective.

JasonDelucia
01-27-2003, 04:16 PM
mike, the secret is mostly concerning strikes.although it could also rest within the curriculum order for control techniques, i think that omitting the true form and tempo regarding entering (includes strike)would be the best way to show it with out showing how it works .and as john stevens himself said about mr.shirata ''as all true masters ,he kept secrets hidden''

Abasan
01-27-2003, 10:19 PM
Why do masters keep secrets hidden? Aren't you suppose to share knowledge in order to learn more? Or has a master stopped learning.

Jason, just curious. When you fight in all those fights using aikido and others thrown in as well... what are you thinking while in the ring.

Are you thinking what technique you are going to do next? Or what techniques the opponent is going to use next? Or are you gauging your strengths and weaknesses against him.

Also, do you have to muscle your techniques to work? Everyone looks tired after a bout, that i can see... but i've not seen your fights since I can't get it here at this part of the world. I only saw the first 3 UFCs... on CD when the gracie was winning it. Can't get anymore now.

locknthrow
01-27-2003, 11:41 PM
Ok I can understand that...so what's the chances of us (public) seeing this? Have you heard/seen these tempo changes?

JasonDelucia
01-29-2003, 04:49 PM
to this i must say,it will not be easy .i would love to show publicly ,but in the time it has taken to develope my own skill ,the fight industry has turned into a swamp business wise .the powers that be don't want to pay men like me ,or even want to use us .

interestingly eneough though ,a boxer like roy jones posseses many of the attributes i am talking about ,and so do most 'thai'thai boxers but their emphasis ends there.like karate -sumo-daito=rock-scissor-paper.

boxing-judo-wrestle.it sounds over simplified but that's the truth of it.it's the melding of three quanta of combat without a seem.the reason it's art ,especially in competition,is that you should really appreciate it as a seemless performance outside of the outcome.many fighters opt.not to go to the next move for fear of loss so they freeze the moment with power.because so much rides on the out come,they actually fight unnaturally.we know this because in real life if a man interupted a fight to assume the position of a referee some thing else would happen,but ufc is not a fight .

in answer to the question in aiki terms .there is alot of footage of mr. ueshiba doing these things but at levels which hide what it really is.i think mr.shioda and mr tomiki have the best extropulation of controll techniques but for striking i would look to mr.funakoshi of shoto kan karate.all aikidoka need karate (fact)soon i will release video with my own humble execution ,and some actual gi randori strikes included .pretty soon i hope.

JasonDelucia
01-29-2003, 05:08 PM
masters are the keepers of the trade no matter how good in combat .they must keep a certain edge which they tend to share with their elect.and even to their closest students they know the value of holding back a little .you must keep order .

with regard to what one thinks in a fighting ring while performing ,it's kind of a drag because you're compelled to go at it,and you know well how to perform the true art which is defensive in nature,but the nature of competition takes you out of that frame of mind and thats frustrating.if i were a powerfull force in this industry i would love to get a fight like 'royce vs sakuraba'

which is with no time limit and so nothing to force you out of your fight plan .rushing you to abandon the strategy ,i've never had the backing ,quite the contrary.

JasonDelucia
01-29-2003, 05:25 PM
johnny,there's enough evidence of me doing things

in real combat i.e JASONDELUCIA.COM that my words are not in vain ,but your words to me seem to be full of contempt .perhaps a video of your supposed teaching credential vs my actual combat experience would be better for every one here to see how it is done .teaching when you've never done can be a sin if you mislead .correct me if i'm mistaken but you seem to be in contempt.

nothing wrong with a little friendly competition?

locknthrow
01-30-2003, 01:51 AM
Ok thanks for keeping on answering my questions. I think this is very interesting. So you are saying that in a NHB fight you would be doing a combination of Aikido/Karate/wrestling? Or were you saying that most people view a fight in that way instead of one seamless encounter?

JasonDelucia
02-03-2003, 04:52 PM
i think basically that the aikido from the ''noma dojo period'' was precisely the combo of the three ,refined to such a degree that there was no interruption of the rythm of neutralization .i.e no struggle or strength dominated technique.but i'm sure he used strength ,i just think it was less noticable due to continuity of movement.

JasonDelucia
02-06-2003, 07:20 PM
darin,i must agree ,having fought royce gracie

2 times ,in my humble opinion bjj is a completely aiki system,but it's focus is too much on competitive execution i.e taking a fight to the ground ,if there are more than one person around ,is is not very realistic.but their execution from their perspective is pure aiki .but i would like to fight two of them against two of us to shed more light on the standing aspect when it would be necessary to keep off the ground.to win a ufc may be difficult for most aikidoka ,but to survive one would be easy for most aikidoka.

JKL
04-07-2003, 03:05 AM
Mr. Clark- This is your comment:

"This type of spectacle has nothing to do with budo practice. I, and none of the quality budo practitioners that I know would have anything to do with such nonsense. This type of activity is designed to make money for the promoters and that's about it."

I don't know what "budo" is. Carlos Newton of UFC fame maybe? BTW, a lot of BJJ practicioners hold high ranks in Judo. Is that related in any way?

For one please do not refer to my sport as "nonsense", as I have not defamed your art in any way or dismissed it. Aikido can be beneficial in street self defense situations in some cases, but for the most part, its practicioncers rarely are asked to apply their skills in a live situation.

Unlike sports/ways of life..lol such as wrestling (my background), judo, kickboxing, some forms of karate, muay thai, and brazilian jiu-jitsu which all have forms of sparring or work against a full live, resisting opponent, who is trying just as hard to apply their techniques as you are.

I see you are from the same city and state I am in. Perhaps one day you could show me these techniques that everyone says will neutralize a steroid freak wrestler like I am, being all of 165 lbs of blobby non defined muscle.

In the future please do not defame the sport of MMA or wrestling. We are for the most part, hard working athletes who condition ourselves to be able to carry on a continued pace of athletic exertion for an extended period of time. Grappling/wrestling is one of the most exhausting activities there is, cardiovascular wise. I very highly doubt that any Aikido practicioner practices soley on conditioning for the amount of time any mid level amateur MMA competitor or high school wrestler does.

If you wish to take me up by showing me your techniques, please contact me. technicalfall19@yahoo.com

Sanshouaikikai
05-19-2005, 12:01 AM
"These guys aren't just anyone."

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with that. I have been a Martial Artist for the last 12 years now. I just started Aikido almost 3 months ago and before that I've been involved in JKD, other forms of Kung Fu, and Karate. I'm not saying that I'm a seasoned expert or anything...'cause I'm not! LOL! However, I am quite dangerous and not only that...I'm a very scientific fighter...which is the reason I got into Aikido...'cause like JKD...it's scientific. Anywho...I've seen the way these NHB guys fight. Almost all of them are good grapplers. However, almost ALL of them are the worst strikers I have ever seen in my life! I've seen supposedly professional UFC guys throw spin kicks, punches, and other types of strikes without even faking their opponent!!!!! The feinted strike is the MOST important strike in the Martial arts...or at least in JKD and boxing...and their opponents either block these slow unfeinted strikes, move out of the way of the strike, or they get hit!!!! How the heck are you gonna get hit by some 250+ lb. guy who is all muscle bound and everything so his strikes go at 1 mile an hour and he doesn't even deceive you!? That to me tells me that these UFC guys are all hype and are NOT the best Martial artists/fighters around. Maybe the best grapplers (of which even that I have a problem accepting) but not the best all around fighters. Truth is...even those UFC guys who say that traditional martial arts don't work on the streets will also get their butts massacred by just about anyone with the lack of skill and speed that these guys possess!

Sanshouaikikai
05-19-2005, 12:19 AM
This message is in regards to Jonathan Levenson from Arizona.
I used to wrestle with my friend who was a high ranking varsity high school wrestler. This kid was sweet as frig. He studied JKD and Karate with me. I learned almost all my wrestling from him as well as from watching high school and college matches on TV and watching UFC and reading BJJ books, LOL. I wasn't able to compete because I live in the City of Buffalo, NY where the public schools here do not have wrestling teams while my friend was in the suburbs where they did. However, I would almost all the time beat my friend into submission, ok? He was an officially trained grappler...I was not. You could say I was very unofficially trained yet I would beat him...not easily...'cause we'd get all sweaty and exhausted and all that crap...but I would use some BJJ stuff that I learned that is superior to a lot wrestling stuff he did. However, back then we both thought that being in shape was the way to beat people...very much like you do now when you said, We are for the most part, hard working athletes who condition ourselves to be able to carry on a continued pace of athletic exertion for an extended period of time... I very highly doubt that any Aikido practicioner practices soley on conditioning for the amount of time any mid level amateur MMA competitor or high school wrestler does. I used to think the exact same way until I realized that criminals and assailants do not waste their time training and working out to beat you up. They just do it. The point of aikido is to not use your strength against a stronger person but to have them use their strength against themselves. So...it really wouldn't matter how much you train in conditioning and how much we don't. You'd still get messed up by yourself because we would use YOUR strength against YOU rather than OUR strength. Also...if you try and wrestle everyone on the streets strength on strength...chances are...you're gonna get massacred by someone who's a lot stronger than you are. So...I suggest you start doing aikido or something, LOL!

jester
05-19-2005, 10:17 AM
I've seen the way these NHB guys fight. Almost all of them are good grappler's. However, almost ALL of them are the worst strikers I have ever seen in my life! I've seen supposedly professional UFC guys throw spin kicks, punches, and other types of strikes without even faking their opponent!!!!! The feinted strike is the MOST important strike in the Martial arts...or at least in JKD and boxing...and their opponents either block these slow unfeinted strikes, move out of the way of the strike, or they get hit!!!! How the heck are you gonna get hit by some 250+ lb. guy who is all muscle bound and everything so his strikes go at 1 mile an hour and he doesn't even deceive you!? That to me tells me that these UFC guys are all hype and are NOT the best Martial artists/fighters around. Maybe the best grappler's (of which even that I have a problem accepting) but not the best all around fighters.

I agree with you on the striking thing for the most part. A lot of these guys are wrestlers, BJJ etc, and don't have a good punching background. The same can be said about really good strikers trying to learn a little grappling or wrestling. If a grappler looks at their technique, they will say the person isn't that good at all.

When you get 2 evenly matched opponents, a lot of the feints etc. just don't work. Setting up the average person isn't that hard, but as the skill level increases, the techniques look different.

Also, in NHB your stances and punches are different from lets say boxing. I never did JKD, so I can't comment on their approach. You can't fully commit to a punch like a boxer because your opening yourself up for take downs kicks etc. You do see a lot of Jab knockouts. Get the UFC ultimate knockouts part 1,2 & 3.

Look at Sport Judo. At a real high level it looks really bad because your opponent knows as much as you. Put that guy against someone unfamiliar with judo, and you will see some nice looking set ups and throws. There are some good well rounded martial artists and trainers. Erik Paulson (although he's never been in the UFC) was a JKD guy who got into BJJ and is a great all around martial artist, If you have ever seen Yves Edwards fight, pound for pound, you will say he is one of the best all around fighters in the world.

I'm not arguing with you to much, but to lump all competitors as UFC guys just isn't correct. You have all type of MMA Events like ADCC, Deep, IVC, Hook 'n' Shoot, K-1, KOTC, Pancrase, PrideFC, Rings, Shooto, Superbrawl, and the UFC.

As the mysteries of wrestling and Grappling are being revealed, I think the level of punching and kicking will go up.

theflyingheadbuttsuplex
05-19-2005, 10:35 AM
darin,i must agree ,having fought royce gracie

2 times ,in my humble opinion bjj is a completely aiki system,but it's focus is too much on competitive execution i.e taking a fight to the ground ,if there are more than one person around ,is is not very realistic.but their execution from their perspective is pure aiki .but i would like to fight two of them against two of us to shed more light on the standing aspect when it would be necessary to keep off the ground.to win a ufc may be difficult for most aikidoka ,but to survive one would be easy for most aikidoka.

Wow, then you know what you're talking about! :eek: But easy? are you sure?

MatthewJones
05-19-2005, 10:52 AM
Poor strikers! Hah! Perhaps in the early days, but some of these guys are the best strikers in the world. Chuck Liddel for example has extremely quick and powerful strikes.

I don't know where you came up with the poor striker idea???

Jorx
05-19-2005, 11:52 AM
Alan needs a reality check.
Paulson has succesfully competed in shooto and dropped the JKD specific stuff entirely.

MitchMZ
05-19-2005, 12:53 PM
I see NHB as mostly basic boxing, grappling, and ground and pound. Honestly, I know that most of the amatuer guys training up to pro could probably mop the floor with me in the shape I'm in right now (Plus, my Judo and BJJ is prolly a lil' bit rusty). But, I also see many flaws in the techniques of high level fighters in the UFC. It seems like many strikes are lacking anymore...with the exception of a few power house kick boxers. To put it simply, I don't think UFC or NHB is an evolution of martial arts by any means. In fact it makes me mad when they say that. I think it is an evolution in exactly what it is....cage fighting.

Really, I think if Aikido folk really would ever want to go "toe to toe" with an experienced NHB fighter they would have to learn to take hits to the head and learn basic boxing. Keep in mind, once an Aikidoka is in a conflict, the element of suprise is completely gone. I'm not doubting the effectiveness of Aikido, I'm merely stating most martial arts rely on an element of suprise. Aikido is self-defense and NHB is cage fighting...two different worlds. Do I think NHB fighters could benefit from traditional martial arts training? Sure, and students from traditional arts could always benefit from some time with pro fighters.

Kevin Leavitt
05-19-2005, 04:40 PM
Certainly not all fighters that enter these things are the best example of strikers. I applaud anyone that has the courage and guts to enter and fight if that is there chosing. Certainly there are rules and constraints that allow for certain tactics and strategies, that is true in all forms of combat.

Your living in la la land if you don't think you need to be in good physical condition to fight period. Yea I understand all that blending and harmony, and frankly it is useful, but in a "real fight", you have other principles in play such as speed, strength, agility that are impacted by your conditioning. So to not be in shape puts you at a severe disadvantage.

If anyone who studies aikido soley a few nights a week seriously thinks they can enter the ring and beat these guys within the parameter of our art, i'd love to see it. It is one thing to arm chair quarterback and philsophize, quite another to go toe to toe and walk the walk.

Most of these guys know much more about fighting than you are giving them credit for.

JiuJitsuka
05-19-2005, 05:36 PM
"Really, I think if Aikido folk really would ever want to go "toe to toe" with an experienced NHB fighter they would have to learn to take hits to the head and learn basic boxing."

I agree, but aside from basic boxing one should learn the game of NHB and how to use other methods of striking. granted there is a only a certain amount of strikes one could execute but knowing "How to" is essential because that is part of the NHB game. Modification of technique to include said strikes is also needed. Then there is going to the ground. And like Kevin said conditioning is very important. Not only does one need the proper conditioning for the physical aspect but the mental aspect also. Think about it your opponent is across from you and all he or she wants to do is beat you down and make you submit, with alot of pain involved, it could kinda put a dent in your ability to focus if your not prepared. So basically, if you want to play the game you need the proper tools.

Oh so as to not upset anyone when I refer to NHB as a game I am referring to the fact that there are rules involved. Anything with rules within the sporting world is a game. I mean no disrespect

Kevin Kelly
05-19-2005, 08:03 PM
I'm sorry, but did we really have to resurrect a two year dead thread like this?

CNYMike
05-20-2005, 12:08 AM
Everytime I watch one of those No Holds Barred Fighting Tournaments (UFC, Pride, Extreme Fighting) I always wonder how a seasoned aikido practitioner would do. A skilled aikido practioner should be able to defend against type of attack reasonable well and a master should be able to fend of even skilled attackers quite easily. So why haven't we seen one?


Because they aren't interested. There are some who are, and they post here and can offer comment, but WRT MMA/NHB, the nature of those competitions requires you to train for it and ramp your training intensity up as you get ready for a fight. MOST Aikido don't do that and don't care to. And that's their prerogative, and no one, regardless of how they train or what they train for, should hang their head and feel ashamed of what they do.


..... I know that as aikido practitioners we use our art for self-defense so seeking a fight is kind of against our creed, but I get frustrated when I see all these mixed martial artists claiming their fighting system is supreme and that the traditional arts are outdated and ineffective ....

Yeah, bugs me too. But if one crosstrains in both areas, that ends the debate, doesn't it?


Most of these fighters aren't even martial artists but wrestlers with a few months of boxing training .....

Neither boxing nor submission grappling should be poo-pooed -- I can tell you that for nothing. These guys are good at what they do and have a lot of tricks up their sleeves.


Are they more effective than an aikido practioner with years/decades of training under his belt?


Better at what?

MMA gives you certain tools. Aikido gives you certain tools and ideas. How do you measure which is better? By performance in the ring? By how many people use them on the street? Well, every art, Aikido included, has people who would swear by it, so that's not good.

Bottom line: Train in what you want to train in, and don't let some comments bother you. Easier said than done, I know that, but that's the goal.

Kevin Leavitt
05-20-2005, 01:53 PM
The reason many of MMA guys have a disdain for aikido is that it does not meet their training objectives. They are mainly interested in being effective fighters within the parameters of their goals.

Aikido is a DO art or way. It is typically centered on developing you as a person, not concentrating on making you an effective MMA fighter. The reason they think what they do is better than aikido is because it is better for them.

I agree Michael with your "better at what?" question. That is where we go wrong. We get confused at what our objectives are in our martial study and then start having self doubt about ourselve and our practice. It is difficult to compare ourselves to others and other systems. Bottom line, if you don't feel aikido is meeting your objectives, you may want to find something else that does.

Yea it sucks getting beat playing a MMA game when you have studied Traditional Martial Arts for years by a 18 year old that has 2 years of MMA under his belt, but in many cases, that is the reality. Doesn't mean you or your art is no good, just mean not for that game or situation.

That same 18 year old may have other issues of unhappiness or emptyness or may not have fully developed his character. It may be later in life he finds aikido and it may fill his needs then.

We all want the "perfect art" that will allow us to be the "perfect martial artist". It does not exist period.

I'd say MMA guys are just as bugged or irked by aikido people that think their art is the best thing since sliced bread in the world. Frankly I find that this is what bugs them the most about aikido, not the art, but many of the people who try to make it something that it is not.

Sanshouaikikai
05-20-2005, 02:34 PM
Best strikers in the world!!?!?!? LOLOL!!!! Wow! So you're telling me that Chuck Liddel can punch better and more effectively than boxers like Felix Trinidad, Winky Wright, and Sugar Ray Leonard or Muhammed Ali and that he can kick better than any Tae Kwon Do guy (like boxing, TKD is a very incomplete style...but...both styles have the best of both worlds...boxing has the best punches and TKD the most amazing kicks ever...not all their techniques in both styles are effective...but they're the best at it)? Not even the guys who claim they're Muay Thai stylists are better strikers than the actual Muay Thai fighters in Thailand. Anyone of those Muay Thai guys can massacre any of these slow muscle bound UFC guys...well...at least in a Muay Thai match, LOL. Another thing is that MMA guys (except for JKD dudes like me) are extremely incomplete! You think that punching, kicking and grappling are the ONLY ranges of combat? Don't you think you're missing one? Well...you are! It's trapping...like Wing Chun for instance. It makes getting into a clinch a lot easier and faster and makes grappling come easier as well rather than taking them down with a shooting technique. I'm not a wing chun expert or anything 'cause JKD only took the more basic and direct wing chun techniques...but...I've been in a lot of street altercations in the past (I live in the "hood" unfortunately, LOL) and shooting doesn't always work on the bigger guys unless you trap them first and knock them off balance. That's why I started aikido...'cause aikido can be used with those wing chun techniques very effectively.

Kevin Leavitt
05-20-2005, 02:53 PM
Alan,

Look forward to your debut in the UFC, sounds like you'd have no problem with your experience.

wendyrowe
05-20-2005, 03:17 PM
I'm sorry, but did we really have to resurrect a two year dead thread like this?

I'm glad it's back! It's a fun one, the discussion has been pretty reasonable, and some new points are being added. May it live forever, evolvng as the sport (MMA) evolves.

stern9631
05-20-2005, 03:31 PM
[QUOTE=Mitch Kuntz] I don't think UFC or NHB is an evolution of martial arts by any means. In fact it makes me mad when they say that. I think it is an evolution in exactly what it is....cage fighting.
QUOTE]

Interesting observation. I agree. In the early matches the fighters were highly stylized. In fact, many were introduced as a practitioner of "this or that" MA. It is funny how it devolved into ancient pankration. MA styles are almost never mentioned, anymore, except as maybe a side note.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Olympics/pankration.html

jester
05-20-2005, 04:43 PM
Best strikers in the world!!?!?!? LOLOL!!!! Wow! So you're telling me that Chuck Liddel can punch better and more effectively than boxers like Felix Trinidad, Winky Wright, and Sugar Ray Leonard or Muhammed Ali .

In the octagon, Chuck Lidell would kick all of these guys a$$e$ plain and simple.

stern9631
05-20-2005, 04:59 PM
In the octagon, Chuck Lidell would kick all of these guys a$$e$ plain and simple.

Absolutely. Also I am sure getting hit with a 4oz glove or a 10-20 oz glove is a completely different feeling.

Ketsan
05-20-2005, 05:11 PM
Interesting observation. I agree. In the early matches the fighters were highly stylized. In fact, many were introduced as a practitioner of "this or that" MA. It is funny how it devolved into ancient pankration. MA styles are almost never mentioned, anymore, except as maybe a side note.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Olympics/pankration.html

Mixed MA seems to be becoming a Martial art of it's own.

CNYMike
05-21-2005, 12:02 AM
.... I'd say MMA guys are just as bugged or irked by aikido people that think their art is the best thing since sliced bread in the world .....

Yeah, but what do MMA guys think of MMA? I doubt they'd put themselves through all that blood and sweat if they thought it stunk!

.... Frankly I find that this is what bugs them the most about aikido, not the art, but many of the people who try to make it something that it is not.

Well, if you hang around here long enough, you find there is some debate over what it does and doesn't do and can or can't go. <shrug> What can I tell you?

Sanshouaikikai
05-21-2005, 03:09 PM
In the octagon, Chuck Lidell would kick all of these guys a$$e$ plain and simple.

NO CRAP! LOL! I'm not saying that they wouldn't get massacred by a MORE complete fighter like Chuck Liddel. Of course...if they had the grappling and kicking skills as Chuck Liddel...I think it would be a different story...but I wouldn't want to get into that "fantasy sports" crap, LOL! However, Chuck Liddel can't punch as well or as effectively or even has hard as they could and NOWHERE near as fast! Like Bruce Lee says, you can't have power without speed! Also...for that guy who said getting hit with a 4oz. glove is different than getting hit with a 10-12oz. (of which is more padding)...if you can knock the daylights out of someone and send them to the hospital (like Felix Trinidad has done on numerous occasions [i.e. Fernando Vargas, Yory Boy Campas, etc.]) with a 10-12 oz. glove...imagine how much it would hurt without the glove...or with a 4oz. glove?

Sanshouaikikai
05-21-2005, 03:15 PM
Alan,

Look forward to your debut in the UFC, sounds like you'd have no problem with your experience.


Yeah...I actually wouldn't mind doing that. I know for a FACT that I would destroy all those posers (especially Tito Ortiz...he's such a moron and he's the worst fighter ever)! Too bad I actually care about getting an education and a REAL job though, LOL!

Kevin Leavitt
05-22-2005, 12:54 PM
Next time I am in Buffalo I'll look you up. Sounds like you could teach me a thing of two! I certainly couldn't handle Tito Ortiz.

Sanshouaikikai
05-22-2005, 01:48 PM
Next time I am in Buffalo I'll look you up. Sounds like you could teach me a thing of two! I certainly couldn't handle Tito Ortiz.

I'm willing to show and teach anyone who's willing to learn a couple of new things (or old things but in newer and more effectively applicable ways). Like I said before...I'm no expert at anything...so...I'm always open minded and willing to learn new things as well. :)

Sanshouaikikai
05-22-2005, 01:51 PM
Next time I am in Buffalo I'll look you up. Sounds like you could teach me a thing of two! I certainly couldn't handle Tito Ortiz.


I don't know how much martial arts experience you have...but...I'm sure that if you study what you study...which I assume is aikido from the looks of your profile/description thing...you would be able to handle a guy like Tito Ortiz.

Kevin Leavitt
05-22-2005, 02:26 PM
I worked out with Roberto Traven about two weeks ago, who loss to Elvis Sinosic in 2004, who loss Tito Ortiz in 2001...and I was not even close to being in Roberto Traven's leaque...so no I don't think I could handle Tito Ortiz.

I have about 12 years of hardcore karate, 9 years of on and off aikido, much experience in the Army training on my own and with the Army through various forums of close combat and MMA....and no I don't think my aikido training even puts me close in that area of fighting skill, then again I have been in the ring with a few guys with skill so I know my limitations and skills, it is a humbling experience to go from the "theoretical" (aikido) to the reality (MMA).

JasonFDeLucia
05-22-2005, 06:55 PM
Best strikers in the world!!?!?!? LOLOL!!!! Wow! So you're telling me that Chuck Liddel can punch better and more effectively than boxers like Felix Trinidad, Winky Wright, and Sugar Ray Leonard or Muhammed Ali and that he can kick better than any Tae Kwon Do guy (like boxing, TKD is a very incomplete style...but...both styles have the best of both worlds...boxing has the best punches and TKD the most amazing kicks ever...not all their techniques in both styles are effective...but they're the best at it)? Not even the guys who claim they're Muay Thai stylists are better strikers than the actual Muay Thai fighters in Thailand. Anyone of those Muay Thai guys can massacre any of these slow muscle bound UFC guys...well...at least in a Muay Thai match, LOL. Another thing is that MMA guys (except for JKD dudes like me) are extremely incomplete! You think that punching, kicking and grappling are the ONLY ranges of combat? Don't you think you're missing one? Well...you are! It's trapping...like Wing Chun for instance. It makes getting into a clinch a lot easier and faster and makes grappling come easier as well rather than taking them down with a shooting technique. I'm not a wing chun expert or anything 'cause JKD only took the more basic and direct wing chun techniques...but...I've been in a lot of street altercations in the past (I live in the "hood" unfortunately, LOL) and shooting doesn't always work on the bigger guys unless you trap them first and knock them off balance. That's why I started aikido...'cause aikido can be used with those wing chun techniques very effectively.
chuck liddell is as good as any of those guys .what's so hard to believe about that .hype interferes with our perception .and he also does irimi way better than most if not all of those guys. doesn't mean he wont go down ever ,but he is still refining.

Sanshouaikikai
05-23-2005, 12:04 AM
In response to Mr. Leavitt:


Well...I can understand the reason why you say that you don't feel that you're aikido ability is not good enough to make you a formidable opponent to an unformidable guy like Ortiz simply because you've been "on and off" in aikido. What belt do you possess in aikido? I started two months ago so...I'm still a white belt (obviously) however, I feel very comfortable with aikido. Of course that doesn't mean that I can do every aikido technique or at least TRY to do every aikido technique in certain situations...but the whole idea of relaxation and blending during an attack and/or fight is a concept that I've started to use very comfortably. I no longer "wrestle" with people...but rather lead them forward in their attack knocking them off balance...it's pretty cool. Another reason why you may not be happy with your aikido training is the fact that your aikido instructor(s) may have been more theoretical in their approach rather than realistic. My dojo is pretty realistic. Aikido in and of itself is very realistic. However...because it is a very different approach to handle aggression...it takes a long time to "reprogram" yourself so it's not going to come to you right away. However, with more years in it and what not...it'll come to you and you'll see what I'm talking about. As you've probably seen in my previous posts...I come from a Jeet Kune Do background. I've also studied Pa Qua Chang and a form of Hun Gar Kung fu as well as San Shou Kung fu. When I was younger I studied kickboxing and Karate-do. A couple of years ago I studied a very modern and militarized Korean martial art that's primarily used to kill people. Rather than striking to the face or body...our aim in this system was to strike at very sensitive parts of the body which can kill someone. I studied that style with a family friend of ours who was a Karate instructor in Cuba and a Special Forces soldier in the Cuban military (FARC). The style was taught to him by North Korean soldiers who helped train Cuban special forces back in the 1980's. It comes from Kuk Sool Won...but....it's nowhere near as fancy...the kicks are nice and what not...but they're extremely direct and powerful. So...to go from those types of vicious combat styles to aikido and say that aikido works better and I've only been in it for two months says a lot about the style and the approach we use in teaching it.

Kevin Leavitt
05-23-2005, 02:51 PM
... holding my ego back, count to 10.... breath...ahhhhh

Roy Dean
05-23-2005, 06:31 PM
[Standing ovation for Kevin's restraint]

Aristeia
05-23-2005, 10:43 PM
Alan , let me see if I've got this right. You think anyone that has done decent study of Aikido would be very comfortable taking on an "unformidable" guy like Tito? When someone tells you they don't it's because their 8 or 9 years has been "on and off" rather than your 3 months which have been full on? Man I need some of what you are smoking.
With respect it sounds as though, while you are no doubt quite knowledgeable around some of the arts you have studied, you don't know much about fighting. No. You could not handle Tito. He would murder you. So would any MMA fighter. That's not something any of us have to be embarrassed about, it's what they train for where has that sort of combat effectiveness tends to be lower down our hierarchy of motivations. But lets not kid ourselves.
As for UFC fighters being poor strikers, you're making a fundamental and somewhat naive mistake. Because they don't look like boxers, or even muay thai fighters, karate fighters etc, you're assuming that their striking abilities are less developed. In actual fact it is in the main more of a case of it being a function of the rules. Boxing looks like boxing because they don't have to worry about being taken down. About being clinched and then kneed into obliviion or on the end of a suplex. The reduced ruleset in MMA leads to a different style of striking with slightly different stances, approach and intent. I know several MMA coaches who say they'd rather have a kid with raw attributes to train than a successful boxer because the boxer will have picked up too many bad habits that will leave them vulnerable.
Having said all that, this comment I know for a FACT that I would destroy all those posers (especially Tito Ortiz...he's such a moron and he's the worst fighter ever)! makes me suspect your are simply a troll.

Sanshouaikikai
05-24-2005, 02:28 PM
With respect it sounds as though, while you are no doubt quite knowledgeable around some of the arts you have studied, you don't know much about fighting.

LOLOLOL!!!! You need to look at some of my other posts, my dear New Zealander! I don't know much about fighting!? Look...if I was some naive beginner that lives in a suburb somewhere where there is no crime or fear of being mugged or attacked...THEN and ONLY then can you say that I don't know much about fighting. How much crime is there in your country? From what I know about it...not very much. I can tell you (unless you tell me otherwise) that you have never been in an actual street fight...and I mean STREET fight...not an NHB/MMA fight...a STREET fight. I bet you that you haven't. However, I have and I KNOW that with my experience in actually REAL street fights that going toe to toe or mano a mano with everyone is not going to work UNLESS they're the same height and weight as you and even then it wouldn't work 'cause you'd probably get all messed up with their strikes (if they catch you by surprise or if they have "homies" with them) that you wouldn't have much strength to do anything. Kicking leads to punching, punching to trapping, trapping which leads to an off balancing technique (often from aikido) which in turn leads to grappling on the ground if you have to. That's how it is...and that's how it happens and that's the strategy that I've used and that's what ACTUALLY works in REAL fights. Not NHB stuff that is incomplete and all about steroids and creatine. So...unless you live in the "hood" like I do and have had to ward off people trying to pickpocket your wallet or threaten to "jump" you in a public restroom then you can tell me that I don't know anything about fighting. Until then...you're the one that's the troll and NO Tito Ortiz is a HORRIBLE fighter who does NOT know the true essence of self defense...or fighting for that matter...but I can tell you from my experience...NHB is not that good for self defense especially if you're not that big or use steriods or creatine. Remember...no street thug wastes his or her time working out and taking strength and mass enhancing drugs to beat you up. They just do it...and all that weight lifting makes you all the more slower. The slower you are the less poweful your strikes are going to be. Like Bruce Lee says, "Without speed you have no power."

Kevin Leavitt
05-24-2005, 02:59 PM
Alan, didn't realize you were talking in the context of "real street fighting"

Not really sure what that is to be quite honest with you. I think intent is everything when it comes to "real fighting".

Is it your intent to look for a fight to prove that you can beat someone into submission? Does your opponent with implicitly or explicity agree to your predetermined "rules"?

Is it truely "no rules"? that is does it mean that one person will die or has the intent to severly kill or disable to the point of no longer being able to fight?

Is your intent to render the person imobile so you can remove a possesion from him? Is his intent the same to you?

Intent is everything in a fight.

Next is strategy. Does the fighter warn you? does he ambush you? what weapons does he possess? what are the environmental factors? Stuff lying around, proximity to escape routes, partners/buddies, proximity to the public or police that might be able to come to your aid.

In a "real fight" it is hard to determine who has the advantage. There are many factors that may give the worlds best martial artist the disadvantage. Speed, audacity, suprise, stealth...are a few.

You cannot simply predict the outcome that you may have with a real fight.

I don't think anyone here has proposed that NHB fighting has much to do with "real fighting"

Do you know Tito Ortiz personally? I am sure he would defend himself much differently on the street than he fights in the ring. If you don't know him I don't really understand how you could pass judgement on his effectiveness in a self defense situation.

speed certainly adds to velocity of a strike which will add to the force that it strikes an object. there is much more to power than speed though. Strength, body weight, the foward momentum, or backward momentum of the person you are striking, surface area of the strike etc. You are over simplifying "power" (maybe a physicst can elaborate).

Not sure where you are going with this at this point. The thread was about the relevance of NHB and Aikido, so I think most of us have focused on this perspective.

Alan, do you have another point other than you think Tito Ortiz is a bad fighter and you are a good one?

Sanshouaikikai
05-24-2005, 03:15 PM
Okay, Mr. Leavitt...you brought some good points...however...I'm not talking about going around and beating someone up...I'm talking people in the "hood" trying to mug you and hurt you. In a self defense situation there is NO time to think about things the way you listed them...there is only time to act...however...in a fight...there is time to think about strategy. However, not enough time to "think" too much. Like Bruce Lee said, "Don't think, feel." In real street fights there are no "predetermined rules"...there simply are none at all! LOL! The ONLY strategy that works in a street fight (besides what we learn in aikido) is intercepting the attack. If you can make your enemy's attack your own by striking him in the process of his/her thinking about what they're going to do to you...you will win the fight without having to kick and punch too much and without having to grapple too much and when they try to get back up and strike you again you can use a "stop hit" or interception of attack again or use aikido. Both have worked and still work for me. All that stuff about Tito Ortiz...I just don't like him...he's not Latino enough to take anyone out period, LOL! What I say about him is Hispanic machismo...you could ignore that if you want...but...it's more than just the machismo thing...I did bring up great points about his inabilities as a fighter.

Kevin Leavitt
05-24-2005, 03:38 PM
If someone mugs you, then essentially they have ambushed you. They immediately seize the advantage. Certainly your skill might help you, and certainly we all train to give ourselves as much skill as we can to attempt to minimze our "battle damage assessment" and possibly turn the fight to our advantage.

Being that there are "no rules", then the mugger is free to smash your cerebal cortex in with a tire iron from behind in the ambush. Don't think any amount of JKD, Aikido, or training will do you much good then.

I understand what you are saying about feel don't think. We define that as Mushin in aikido, if you haven't come across that yet in your three months of training, you will find it is essentially the same concept as Bruce Lee proposed.

You do have time for strategy however, we do that by having these conversations know, preparing yourself as best you can, minimizing your exposure to potential muggings by crossing streets, avoiding danger areas, etc. Being aware of your environment, developing an egress plan or an attack plan.

It might be semantics, but there are rules...the rules are the ones that the assailant is imposing on you and the ones you impose on him once and if you seize the advantage. Look at the court cases if you don't believe there are rules imposed. These rules is why we have deliberations in court proceedings about who is guilty and not guilty...use of excessive force etc.

Your enthusiam is admired, and many here will welcome robust discussion and debate all in the name of personal growth and understanding. I know you are new to the board, but I think you will find that there is not much room for machismo here, frankly it is not a trait that most aikidoka aspire to. so you may want to save that for Bullshido.net or other websites.

jester
05-24-2005, 04:34 PM
So...unless you live in the "hood" like I do

What County in NYC do you live in?

Aristeia
05-24-2005, 05:18 PM
Hey you've tumbled me, I live in New Zealand, well done. Oh wait, that's not actually an argument. Ok then. You may or may not have had a bunch of street fights, I don't know, but regardless you're still making comments that indicate that your understanding of combat is very surface level. For example, the fact that you equate being able to deal with some scrub on the street with handling a professional athlete who spends all day every day, thinking about, training for, and practicing combat. It's like saying because I own the the local court in games of 2 on 2 basketball I'm ready for the NBA.

These guys make their living fighting. Money and the well being of their families is on the line. Trust me, they will do anything they can to make themselves better fighters.

I'm confused by a couple of your comments. On the one hand you state that NHB is not good for self defence if you are not big, but on the other you imply that being big costs you speed and therefore power. Which is it? Are you better to be big or not? I'll give you a hint - the whole "muscle mass will slow you down" line is a myth. Muscle can be used to drive speed and power. Building muscle only limits flexibility and speed if building muscle is all you do. The guys in the UFC are in great shape, but not overly musclebound a la mister universe. It's not effecting their speed, if it was they would change because again, this is their livelihood.

no street thug wastes his or her time working out and taking strength and mass enhancing drugs to beat you up
ummm...yeah. They don't spend any time training fighting either. Which is why they are not any where near the fighters the professionals are. Which is why they tend to choose the victims selctively. And it's also why your claims to have had a couple of street altercations do nothing to help your claim that you would "destroy" *any* UFC fighter.

If you're so sure you can do this, why not convince us. Go down to an MMA school and challenge them. Take a camera. I'm sure we can find a place willing to waive rules.

There's a reality gap in your thinking. You think that anyone who's trained in aikido consistantly for a period of time should be able to handle a UFC fighter. This is because theoretically that may be true. When you view Aikido from a theoretcial standpoint it should be able to deal with anything. I recognise that thinking because I was the same as a beginner. But the theoretical is hard to acheive. It's an ideal. I have been training aikido consistantly for a period of time and I have no illusions about the sort of people I can handle, and those I can't. I don't know of any Aikidoka I'd be comfortable putting my money on vs a UFC fighter. Again, not something we should worry about - it's not what most of us train for - most of us train because it's fun and to handle the sort of "street" confrontations you have been talking about, not a trained and professional fighter.

Out of the ring there are less rules - correct. But that holds true for both of the combatants. If someone like tito can take you down and pin you to the ground at will in the octogan, how much worse will it be for you when, once you're there he can bite, eye gouge and divest you of your manhood?

Look you may be a bad ass who lives in a bad part of town. Who knows. But to say you could *destroy* *any* UFC figher is just over the top ridiculous and divests you of any credibility.

Aristeia
05-24-2005, 05:26 PM
I did bring up great points about his inabilities as a fighter.

No you didn't. Or if you did you need to repost them because they never made it to the server. You brought up some points that indicated that you don't understand there is a difference between strategy and execution in boxing vs a more limited rules format.

Sanshouaikikai
05-24-2005, 10:28 PM
"the fact that you equate being able to deal with some scrub on the street with handling a professional athlete who spends all day every day, thinking about, training for, and practicing combat."


The reason I brought that up is because I don't know if you get any advertisements over in New Zealand about these UFC guys claiming that their style is the best for street fighting and self defense. I hate when they do that because almost ALL of these guys aren't even certified instructors or anything in their art and they're already making videos about how to take people out and some of these dudes have only been around for like 2 or 3 years! What the frig!?!?? I should be making videos! LOL! Anywho...I'm not just saying that aikidoka because they practice aikido could mess up NHB guys...I do think however that if you know aikido and have knowledge of other arts and you've been doing them for awhile...you should be able to mess up any UFC guy much more easily than a normal MMA fighter. Look...I know it seems that I must hate the UFC and Pride and all that...on the contrary I love all of those competitions! I just hate the idea that people think that these guys are the best martial artists in the world! They're simply not! As for street altercations...what would an NHB guy do to a dude weilding a knife or a baseball bat...or maybe not having weapons...but...having more than one person fighting you? Are they gonna "shoot" everyone!? LOLOLOL!!!! Listen...I have been in situations where people have tried wailing me with hockey sticks and baseball bats...I don't know if there are any of those in New Zealand...but they hurt if you were to get hit with them and let me tell you...wrestling with them is not going to work...thus...UFC guys are unrealistic...they fight and train all their lives everyday for unrealistic situations...of course so does the other 99.9% of other martial arts including various forms of aikido!

It's not effecting their speed, if it was they would change because again, this is their livelihood.


Ummm...no they wouldn't! They're grapplers...often greco-roman and freestyle wrestlers! You kind of need to be strong and muscular to be a wrestler and since the matches consist of a lot of wrestling or grappling in general...they stay huge and yes it does affect their speed A LOT!!! Maybe not the lighter weight dudes...but definitely the heavier guys are rediculously slow as frig!


If you're so sure you can do this, why not convince us. Go down to an MMA school and challenge them. Take a camera. I'm sure we can find a place willing to waive rules.

I honestly would...and I would take the biggest, baddest and toughest guy there too...and...the outcome would be me humiliating the crap out of the guy and it would be caught on tape! Just to let you know...before I started aikido...when I thought aikido was a crappy, crystallized style of fighting...I challenged varsity high school wrestlers, judokas (who were brown and black belts), and tae kwon do guys most of which were all bigger than I. I'm the one that won them all, hence, I'm not afraid of some creatine slurping body building freak who thinks they're so bad and could beat everyone to a pulp. However...the only school around here that teaches MMA is a JKD school in one of the suburbs...so...it's pretty far...and the fact that they're JKD guys who are a lot better at it than I...the outcome would be me getting massacred! LOL! Then again...if there are any non-JKD schools who teach MMA...I'd be more than glad to take them on...if they're in the Buffalo, NY area of course.

you don't understand there is a difference between strategy and execution in boxing vs a more limited rules format.



I do understand the difference...however...a great strategy to use that we use in JKD is box a fighter and fight a boxer. I'm not saying that boxing ALONE is going to defeat a guy who uses more complete fighting skills...however...if you could use feints and good combinations in general whether it be with kicks, punches, etc. you should be able to win. Hence...the strategy and execution shouldn't be ALL that different if you actually have any martial skill and/or talent at all!

Also...I know that I sound all full of myself...and I apologize...I just get all heated up if you know what I mean...especially when it's such a hot topic. I don't intend to be rude or inconsiderate in anyway...I actually have a lot of fun...so I hope no one thinks that badly of me...if so...I apologize and will be more calm and patient.

Chris Birke
05-25-2005, 01:44 AM
It looks like Roy Harris is holding a seminar up in Rochester. That's only an hour from you! You should fight some of those guys (there should be lots of ones who think they are tough) and put it on video.

http://www.saundersbjj.com/index.html < Seminar Info Here

I think someone on this board even trains with Roy Harris, maybe you can meet him?

Please do this, I would LOVE to see the video!

Aristeia
05-25-2005, 06:43 AM
"."
I hate when they do that because almost ALL of these guys aren't even certified instructors or anything in their art and they're already making videos about how to take people out and some of these dudes have only been around for like 2 or 3 years! What the frig!?!??

Well yeah. Because they don't need to be certerfied - they have shown themselves to be objectively effective by their records. They are *clearly* good at what they do so peope want to learn how they go about doing it.
And if they've been in the UFC 2-3 years then they've been training for *much* longer than that.

if you know aikido and have knowledge of other arts and you've been doing them for awhile...you should be able to mess up any UFC guy much more easily than a normal MMA fighter.

Well this is where your argument falls down. If that were the case, why aren't MMA fighters flocking to Aikido in droves? According to you they would start easily winning their fights, make more money, fame and glory. So why don't they? Or convesely why haven't se seen Aikidoka going in and kicking ass? there's a whole range of skills and attributes that these guys develop which you are underestimating.

what would an NHB guy do to a dude weilding a knife or a baseball bat...or maybe not having weapons...but...having more than one person fighting you?
yaddah yaddah, what would they do if a gang of ninjas fell from the ceiling. So what are you saying, Aikidoka can "mess up" MMAers if they surprise them with a baseball bat and a bunch of friends? Well duh


Ummm...no they wouldn't! They're grapplers...often greco-roman and freestyle wrestlers! You kind of need to be strong and muscular to be a wrestler and since the matches consist of a lot of wrestling or grappling in general
yes. Because that's what WORKS. Your argument seems to be they lose speed by being big but they have to be big because thats what you need to win. You'ren not making a whole lot of sense.

...they stay huge and yes it does affect their speed A LOT!!! Maybe not the lighter weight dudes...but definitely the heavier guys are rediculously slow as frig!

Big does not necessarily mean slow. The wrestlers strikes might be a little slower, becauase it's not their game, but look at the sped of their takedowns. And the strikers are plenty fast enough to knock you out.

I honestly would...and I would take the biggest, baddest and toughest guy there too...and...the outcome would be me humiliating the crap out of the guy

Talk to us about what you've done, not what you would do. I'm sure we can find you a school willing to take a challenge in your area if you're serious.

I do understand the difference...however...a great strategy to use that we use in JKD is box a fighter and fight a boxer. I'm not saying that boxing ALONE is going to defeat a guy who uses more complete fighting skills...however...if you could use feints and good combinations in general whether it be with kicks, punches, etc. you should be able to win. Hence...the strategy and execution shouldn't be ALL that different if you actually have any martial skill and/or talent at all!

Again you misunderstand. It's not a case of saying "this guys a wrestler so I'm going to box him". The whole point is, unmodified boxing strategy is suicide against a wrestler because it'll leave your legs open for takedowns. Because while you're feinting they're closing in to clinch and the ref ain't gonna seperate you. So you need to modify the striking strategy. so it looks different to classical boxing. So people start jumpiing on line and saying "hey he doesn't look like a boxer, he must be a terrible puncher"
Go tell Liddel or Silva or Sylvia they're awful punchers and get back to us when you wake up.

Also...I know that I sound all full of myself...and I apologize...I just get all heated up if you know what I mean...especially when it's such a hot topic. I don't intend to be rude or inconsiderate in anyway...I actually have a lot of fun...so I hope no one thinks that badly of me...if so...I apologize and will be more calm and patient.

I dont think you're rude, just misguided. I suspect you're fairly young and you love your martial arts and have alot of faith in the ones you've trained. Which is great. You are excited about Aikido and the martial possibilities it's opening up for you, which is also great. But you need to temper that enthusiasm with realism. Eventually you'll begin to understand where Aikido's power lies and where it's not suited, and hopefully that'll make you love it all the more not less. I'm just trying to save you some time on that curve.

Kevin Leavitt
05-25-2005, 01:20 PM
"."


I honestly would...and I would take the biggest, baddest and toughest guy there too...and...the outcome would be me humiliating the crap out of the guy and it would be caught on tape! Just to let you know...before I started aikido...when I thought aikido was a crappy, crystallized style of fighting...I challenged varsity high school wrestlers, judokas (who were brown and black belts), and tae kwon do guys most of which were all bigger than I. I'm the one that won them all, hence, I'm not afraid of some creatine slurping body building freak who thinks they're so bad and could beat everyone to a pulp. However...the only school around here that teaches MMA is a JKD school in one of the suburbs...so...it's pretty far...and the fact that they're JKD guys who are a lot better at it than I...the outcome would be me getting massacred! LOL! Then again...if there are any non-JKD schools who teach MMA...I'd be more than glad to take them on...if they're in the Buffalo, NY area of course.

I.


I have lots of friends in the MA community and I am sure if you are serious it could be arranged. I'll see if there are any up there in western new york that might be willing to come over and roll with you. They love a good challenge and frankly love to learn from their mistakes if you are really that good. Heck if I could get away from Germany for a while and had the money, i'd come there myself sounds like it would be fun!

What would be the rules?

Kevin Leavitt
05-25-2005, 01:34 PM
"."
Also...I know that I sound all full of myself...and I apologize...I just get all heated up if you know what I mean...especially when it's such a hot topic. I don't intend to be rude or inconsiderate in anyway...I actually have a lot of fun...so I hope no one thinks that badly of me...if so...I apologize and will be more calm and patient.


I have to agree with you here. So far you've offered alot of claims, alot of bravado/machismo, and unsupported facts. Your arguments are somewhat inconsistent somewhat contradictory, and argumentative as well.

I think most people here would like to welcome you and would be glad to discuss topics heated or not to help you and ourselves become better martial artist. Nothing wrong with controversy or disagreeing, it is all apart of challenging ourselves. It is usually within the nature of Aikidoka to try and seek there way through conflict to find good in it.

That said, most of us also, at somepoint know when you need to irimi and move on. I'd either find a way to back up your claims, or leave this behind, and move on to another topic. Either way, I know I am.

Sanshouaikikai
05-25-2005, 02:04 PM
It looks like Roy Harris is holding a seminar up in Rochester.


I don't know if you saw my previous post and how I said that I'll gladly take on anyone in the Buffalo, NY area ('cause I'm very poor and have no transportation and gas is expensive these days) who is a NON-JKD guy. Roy Harris is a JKD guy!!!! He studied under Paul Vunak...who happens to be...IMHO the greatest JKD guy ever (since Bruce Lee of course and besides Dan Inosanto)!!! However, I'll gladly take on anyone who is just a wrestler who can kickbox (what they call MMA these days! LOL!) who is in Buffalo or in it's neighboring vicinities like it's suburbs or something.

What would be the rules?

My rules would be normal NHB rules with the exception that I would allow joint locks (for both my opponent and I).

jester
05-25-2005, 02:09 PM
It looks like Roy Harris is holding a seminar up in Rochester. That's only an hour from you! You should fight some of those guys (there should be lots of ones who think they are tough) and put it on video.

Don't hold your breath for that to happen!

Alan, where do you get your assessment of all the MMA/NHB guys?

Where has it been published that people like Bas Rutten, Yves Edwards, Maurice Smith, Wallid Ismael, Kazushi Sakuraba etal have used steroids? All of these guys have been in MA for a long time.

Also, if you say your as bad as you are, and all the NHB guys aren't any good, you should enter some competitions and make some serious money!!! In the millions even!!! The way you talk, you should be headlining a Vegas show soon. I think the fact of the matter is, your not as good as you say, and your either to scared or your ego is to big to try it.

The only way to substantiate your claims is to do it and show us the video. Don't fight some deadbeat either. Fight someone with a good record and possibly a good street fighting video!

Sanshouaikikai
05-25-2005, 02:51 PM
Again you misunderstand. It's not a case of saying "this guys a wrestler so I'm going to box him". The whole point is, unmodified boxing strategy is suicide against a wrestler because it'll leave your legs open for takedowns.


I never said that! Re-read the post or at least that part again! I agree that it's a modified boxing strategy...that's what I meant by boxing ALONE not being able to defeat a MORE complete fighter...but the principles of boxing like feinting, jabbing, footwork, etc. applied to one's strategy against someone who's gonna "fight" you WILL work! You should research and/or try out Jeet Kune Do...you'll see what I'm talking about then. I really don't think that I'm the one misunderstanding anything...and I say that with all due respect...maybe I'm not explaining myself clearly enough or something...but I know for a fact that I don't have a misguided view. The point I'm really trying to make about NHB fighting and it's real life application and effectiveness is...just because most altercations end up on the ground...does not mean that we ALL have to be MMA grapplers who go around tackling people. I think that yes...we as martial artists (I like to call it martial science) need to know how to defend ourselves in the case that a fight goes to the ground but...also...we have to have more realistic view of standup fighting too, you know?

yes. Because that's what WORKS. Your argument seems to be they lose speed by being big but they have to be big because thats what you need to win. You'ren not making a whole lot of sense

Yes...they do lose speed by being big...but...if you want to win in a WRESTLING match or ONLY grappling match of some sort...you have be strong! The point I'm making or trying to make but is not going through anyone's head is that grappling, no matter what build you are will not be a good idea in certain real life situations! Why? Because it is a strength on strength thing! It's a contest to see who's stronger is it not? Okay...maybe Juijutsu and Judo or w/e maybe more about technique and what not...but there's a lot of "wrestling" in there too hence it requires strength and in order to be strong you need to work out! Understand me yet? Was that clear enough for everybody? I'm not saying that being strong is going to make anyone win...only in grappling matches against equally matched opponents. That's why you can't rely on strength against people who are bigger than you.

Well this is where your argument falls down. If that were the case, why aren't MMA fighters flocking to Aikido in droves? According to you they would start easily winning their fights, make more money, fame and glory. So why don't they? Or convesely why haven't se seen Aikidoka going in and kicking ass? there's a whole range of skills and attributes that these guys develop which you are underestimating.

In MY OPINION I think that the reason for that is that the majority of these guys were all wrestlers who lift weights and do all these supposedly "manly" things, so when they see something like a soft art like aikido or tai chi they scoff at it's effectiveness or sometimes not even that, they just don't think it "looks" manly enough for them or something. Anywho...that's what I think about it. As for aikidoka doing it...they're just scared! LOL! They're too easily intimidated by these guys and I have no idea why! So...because they're scared they'll make up all these excuses saying that Aikido is not for competition but for being a better person or some bologna like that...well...like I said...that's my humble opinion.