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SeanHaeussinger2
10-22-2006, 01:41 AM
Hello, I am a 13 year old gokyu, and in my training, I've learned the concept of Aikido, and not just the techniques. I've also thought
to train with fake guns at the same time. But since I can't, I'd have to train with pre-existing attacks, like Ushiro Kubishime for some guy hold one hostage. I've been devising a technique to disarm a weapon w/o a pin. I don't have the resources to show the technique right now, but I hope to show this technique in the future.
Please be ready with etymology for Aikido techniques. Please post of your new techniques, also.

Aristeia
10-22-2006, 04:11 AM
My two cents worth. It is extremely unusual for people to come up with new techniques outside of very specific sporting applications in things like judo/BJJ etc -where the techs are more about coutners to counters to counters in comps and less about real world defence.

People have been fighting for milennia and most if not all the effective stuff has been found already. Every time I see someone come up wiht a new technique - it tends to be something that's a less effective version of something that's already been created elsewhere. Less effective because the other version has been tested and refined over time.

either that or it's something that just plain would not work in the real world.

Why are you so concerned with weapons disarms?

markwalsh
10-22-2006, 03:11 PM
Aikido is principles not tricks so infinite techniques.

EG, Taught a "sleaze" class the other day for fun, and because the girls had had some dirt-bags tried to touch them up. Showed sankyo from arm around shoulder, yonkyo from hand on knee, kotegaeshi from ass pinch. Hilarious.

Always doing new stuff by mistake in randori - just happens.

Footage of O Sensei shows that he was very creative, never doing exactly the same thing twice - so aikido is always new stuff. Basic kata most important still though I think, as dojos that just do creative aikido are rubbish in my experience.

kokyu
10-23-2006, 06:53 AM
Always doing new stuff by mistake in randori - just happens.


I agree... and then someone asks, can you show that again? And because it was done on the spur of the moment, I just can't get it to work again :p

ian
10-23-2006, 07:42 AM
Definately good to explore different applications. I presume the new technique is a variation on something else.

I was actually thinking myself of the best way to disarm someone with a knife. And practically I think its best with 2 people. The first person (the 'target' of the attack), just knocks the knife arm away whilst moving out of the way and tries to pin/restarin the knife arm whilst the second person comes from behind and chokes the knife weilder (jugular vein constriction).

I was watching some hand gun evasion on youtube in self-defence classes but many of these ended up with the person having permanent hearing damage (the gun could be discharged right next to the head!)

Ian

DonMagee
10-23-2006, 03:10 PM
My two cents worth. It is extremely unusual for people to come up with new techniques outside of very specific sporting applications in things like judo/BJJ etc -where the techs are more about coutners to counters to counters in comps and less about real world defence.

People have been fighting for milennia and most if not all the effective stuff has been found already. Every time I see someone come up wiht a new technique - it tends to be something that's a less effective version of something that's already been created elsewhere. Less effective because the other version has been tested and refined over time.

either that or it's something that just plain would not work in the real world.

Why are you so concerned with weapons disarms?

I agree and disagree, as times change so do the publics outlook on fighting. In the 1800's you might of had lots of people who fancied fighting as boxing. Because of this how an attack will attack you will change based on the area you live, the ethnic type of the attacker, age of the attacker, skill level and training of the attacker. Because of this I belive combat arts are ment to evolve. However most people can not seperate tradition and history from fighting. Thus they spend time learning how to defend against swords and guys in armor, when their prime targets are guys in baggy pants with a gat or a shank.

However, I do agree that most people's inventions tend to be over complicated less effective techniques. You are much better off training the basics then you are inventing long winded senario's for self defense. At the same time, you should be open to trying new things and developing your own style.

Sport arts do this because they are fighting everyday. They are forced to learn new concepts and techniques because the competition is changing. You have bjj guys doing great, then wrestlers come in and dominate with ground and pound, then guys learn good standup and start dominating, then someone blends some wrestling/bjj and starts dominating so everyone focuses on that. The sport changes. Does this reflect actual combat on the street? Sure it does! Have you ever seen guys box in the street full of beer and pride? I have. Have you ever seen a ground and pound attack from high school kids? I have. Have you ever seen two guys square off with their friends around cheering them on, leading to a girly wrestling match? Sport fighting represents one major branch of street fighting. Male ego combat. That is 1 on 1 attacks that tend to happen around bars, in schools, and between guys who like the same girl. But that is another debate all together.

Back on topic, the simplest things are always the best when it comes to training and self defense. You better not try to trade punches with a guy if you have a weak guard and jab. You better not try your crazy throw, armbar, neck snap, death preassure point attack if you have bad footwork and bad clinch skills. You better not try to wrist lock that guy if you havn't trained entering properly. I do not recomend trying a reverse omaplata if you havn't spent time on basic ground position and base. I see a lot of fights won by the most basic of techniques. Jab, Hook, clinch, Upper cut, etc. Or in judo, one or two basic throws such as osoto gari.

So anyways, work on your basics, it will serve you better. And besides most new techniques are just a bunch of basics scripted together into a silly long chain anyways.

ian
10-24-2006, 08:17 AM
I... I do agree that most people's inventions tend to be over complicated less effective techniques

I completely agree. The difficulty with a 'new' technique (not sure I believe there really are such things) is i. that it takes alot of practise to do well and ii. it needs to be tested for combat effectiveness.

There are all sorts of unpredictable things which occur, so no technique can ever be perfect. Techniques developed in e.g. aikido, do have some field testing (through the samurai) and tend therefore to be somewhat 'reliable' - but even then, it depends how you apply it

Kevin Wilbanks
10-24-2006, 10:47 AM
If you actually had the skill, knowledge and experience to successfully invent new techniques, I think your sensei would have promoted you beyond 5th kyu by now. There is a difference between a new technique and a new application, or an improvisation that isn't clearly any particular technique. Aikido has a limited curriculum in terms of the number of attacks and techniques on purpose - my understanding is that O'Sensei rejected the introduction of new attacks and techniques to the curriculum many times.

I hope this ego of yours limits its strutting to experimental Aikido training and internet posting. If you really think you are a martial arts expert capable of pioneering Aikido and inventing successful gun takeaways, I'm concerned you are likely to go out and get hurt or killed.

Martin Ruedas
10-24-2006, 10:23 PM
Hello, I am a 13 year old gokyu, and in my training, I've learned the concept of Aikido, and not just the techniques. I've also thought
to train with fake guns at the same time. But since I can't, I'd have to train with pre-existing attacks, like Ushiro Kubishime for some guy hold one hostage. I've been devising a technique to disarm a weapon w/o a pin. I don't have the resources to show the technique right now, but I hope to show this technique in the future.
Please be ready with etymology for Aikido techniques. Please post of your new techniques, also.

Hi Sean. You're still young in age and in rank, so there's more to learn up ahead in your training. You might find out that its already there. Just continue your training. ;)

ian
10-25-2006, 06:57 AM
I hope this ego of yours limits its strutting to experimental Aikido training and internet posting. If you really think you are a martial arts expert capable of pioneering Aikido and inventing successful gun takeaways, I'm concerned you are likely to go out and get hurt or killed.

Thats a bit harsh - I think its always useful to reflect on these things such as new applications or new techniques just to stimulate a wider variety of responses (though of course, you only ever need one technique; the one that works ;) )

I'm sure you're just like me Kev, old and cynical, but I still remember the early days when everything was new.

SeanHaeussinger2
10-26-2006, 02:37 AM
My two cents worth. It is extremely unusual for people to come up with new techniques outside of very specific sporting applications in things like judo/BJJ etc -where the techs are more about coutners to counters to counters in comps and less about real world defence.

People have been fighting for milennia and most if not all the effective stuff has been found already. Every time I see someone come up wiht a new technique - it tends to be something that's a less effective version of something that's already been created elsewhere. Less effective because the other version has been tested and refined over time.

either that or it's something that just plain would not work in the real world.

Why are you so concerned with weapons disarms?
Particularly in guns (some of us [not me] get the idea of short range weapons), I'm trying to produce new techniques against guns (training to dodge a bullet included where possible). Too much in swords & whatnot. The most important anti gun technique would be against Ushiro Kubishime, kind of like in the movies, "do as I say, or the kid gets it!" *Kid does Ushiro Kubishime Ikkyo*.
Plus, I got the idea from a video I saw. One of the clips had a guy pointing at another guy, the nage did what LOOKS LIKE Sumi Otoshi, except with takedown.

SeanHaeussinger2
10-26-2006, 02:39 AM
If you actually had the skill, knowledge and experience to successfully invent new techniques, I think your sensei would have promoted you beyond 5th kyu by now. There is a difference between a new technique and a new application, or an improvisation that isn't clearly any particular technique. Aikido has a limited curriculum in terms of the number of attacks and techniques on purpose - my understanding is that O'Sensei rejected the introduction of new attacks and techniques to the curriculum many times.

I hope this ego of yours limits its strutting to experimental Aikido training and internet posting. If you really think you are a martial arts expert capable of pioneering Aikido and inventing successful gun takeaways, I'm concerned you are likely to go out and get hurt or killed.But I AM 5th Kyu, which in the kid's class at the dojo I goto, it's orange belt. Also, I'm not quite an expert (at least I know such, unlike some others), I still have a grasp of what Aikido is supposed to be about. Throwing the uke with his/her own energy.
Also incorperates joint locks & pins. And well, when I get hurt, I endure, as would be ganbatte.

Mathias Lee
10-26-2006, 08:06 AM
I think everyoen is being much to hard on Sean. Noones aikido is perfect, as if it was we'd all be 10th Dan's. I've always been told aikido is the art of the individual, because you use the moves that work for you. I always find kaiten nage hard because I'm smaller than average, It's not impossible but there are much more effective mvoes for me to use. Is Sean finds his own technique, even if it is a less effective version of Ikkyo, for him it might be much more effective as it incorporates what he knows.
A lot of Aikido is about Takemusu, spontanious birth of new technique, so it is possible to create new technique just a lot of what people create is based so much on previous principles it's undisernable.
So keep showing a willingness to learn Sean, and don't be put off by anyone who thinks they know more than you... unless they're 10th Dan, and even then there's probably gonna be a lot of debate over what they say!

Ron Tisdale
10-26-2006, 08:23 AM
There are some good thoughts on Takemusu Aiki on some other threads just now. Common agreement seems to be that it occurs after quite some time of regular training in ... the basics. I don't think we have any 10th dans posting, but there are some people here who might have more of a clue than a 5th kyu. So if I were in Sean's shoes...I would listen to those who have gone before. They might actually know something.

Best,
Ron

SeanHaeussinger2
10-28-2006, 03:27 AM
I think everyoen is being much to hard on Sean. Noones aikido is perfect, as if it was we'd all be 10th Dan's. I've always been told aikido is the art of the individual, because you use the moves that work for you. I always find kaiten nage hard because I'm smaller than average, It's not impossible but there are much more effective mvoes for me to use. Is Sean finds his own technique, even if it is a less effective version of Ikkyo, for him it might be much more effective as it incorporates what he knows.
A lot of Aikido is about Takemusu, spontanious birth of new technique, so it is possible to create new technique just a lot of what people create is based so much on previous principles it's undisernable.
So keep showing a willingness to learn Sean, and don't be put off by anyone who thinks they know more than you... unless they're 10th Dan, and even then there's probably gonna be a lot of debate over what they say!It's OK, I'm learning, and also knowing of others' opinions. That's all that matters.

SeanHaeussinger2
10-31-2006, 04:00 AM
When I messed up Katate Sumi Otoshi, I discovered that just before the throw, I could just perform Iriminage, instead of the whole Sumi Otoshi. Of course it'd have to be performed on the Katate hand, free hand around the head. And does it still count as Sumi Otoshi if the free arm pushes by the uke's neck or chest?

Ketsan
10-31-2006, 09:43 AM
Excuse me for stating the obvious, since no doubt everyone here is intimately familiar with O-Sensei's writing and is widely read. But.
At least he's thinking outside of the kata. Most Aikidoka are content to improve their kata and they go up through the ranks as their kata gets better without realising that the kata isn't Aikido. They'll say "This is an Aikido technique and this isn't" not realising that Aikido has no techniques.
You can't be taught Aikido; you can only be taught a series of forms that will simulate Aikido but it's up to you to make the intuitive leap.
Then we get into the realms of knowlege, rank and who knows better than who without realising that firstly that rank and knowlege only have a very general relationship and secondly that rank is based on something other than understanding of Aikido per se, which being an intuitive thing is very hard to measure.
For all the put downs about his rank and age if he keeps seeking out direct experience and studies his kata properly he'll be far better than 90% of Aikidoka in a few years. It's not like Ueshiba formulated Aikido because he studied hard and then started thinking outside of the box, he was never inside the box in the first place, he had that rare quality, the ability to wonder "what if?" and I don't mean the "Yeah, but he could just do this" kind of what if I mean the kind of what if that comes with a desire to understand and improve.
Aikidoka could learn a lot from O-Sensei. Which should be something taken for granted really but I'm amazed at just how many people, high ranked people, will assert their supposed superiority over lower grades by contradicting him.

Page 36 of the larger version (not the pocket one) of the the art of peace is what I based most of this post on, incase you're interested.

Ron Tisdale
10-31-2006, 09:57 AM
It's not like Ueshiba formulated Aikido because he studied hard and then started thinking outside of the box, he was never inside the box in the first place, he had that rare quality, the ability to wonder "what if?" and I don't mean the "Yeah, but he could just do this" kind of what if I mean the kind of what if that comes with a desire to understand and improve.

Can you tell me what you base this (run on) sentence on? You say he was never "in the box"...can you clarify what you mean by that, and in what way he was different from the clarification? As far as I've read, he had a teacher (a notoriously strict one) and studied what that teacher presented to him assiduoulsy for at least 5 years. Even living with the teacher for a time, in more than one place. Budo was what he devoted himself to, and he wasn't 15 either. And that wasn't the first martial art he'd studied, more like the 3rd...again, not much like our eager young beaver above at all.

Aikidoka could learn a lot from O-Sensei. Which should be something taken for granted really but I'm amazed at just how many people, high ranked people, will assert their supposed superiority over lower grades by contradicting him.

Contradicting who? Ueshiba Sensei? The poster above? I'll have to re-read the thread...I don't see what you are talking about. I see experienced people kindly letting a relatively young, inexperienced person know some things that might help him. I see no supposed superiority...it is just a simple fact that someone who has been training 10 years (regardless of rank), in more than one art, who is 30 to 45, would be a worthy person to listen to if you are 15, and new to an art. No big deal though...this won't be the first time someone young ignores advice from an elder, and it won't be the last. Chances are, our young friend will survive and learn on his own quite well in the long run.

Best,
Ron

George S. Ledyard
10-31-2006, 10:23 AM
It's not like Ueshiba formulated Aikido because he studied hard and then started thinking outside of the box, he was never inside the box in the first place,

I would completely disagree with this. O-sensei spent plenty of time "inside the box". It's just that the vast majority of information we have about him comes from the last half of his life. In the very early 1930's when he was still teaching Daito Ryu, he had already trained longer than the vast majority of the folks reading this forum.

He started training when he was young. he had a VERY solid base as a foundation for his later development of Aikido. There isn't anyone in Aikido who is any good who has just gone off in his own direction before he had understood the essentials. The "box" exists for a reason. The box represents the inherited collective knowledge passed down by those who have gone before. Before you leave the box, you need to understand what is in the box. The idea that O-sensei did not go through this process is incorrect and represents a misleading model for those coming along behind.

Ketsan
10-31-2006, 10:48 AM
Can you tell me what you base this (run on) sentence on? You say he was never "in the box"...can you clarify what you mean by that, and in what way he was different from the clarification? As far as I've read, he had a teacher (a notoriously strict one) and studied what that teacher presented to him assiduoulsy for at least 5 years. Even living with the teacher for a time, in more than one place. Budo was what he devoted himself to, and he wasn't 15 either. And that wasn't the first martial art he'd studied, more like the 3rd...again, not much like our eager young beaver above at all.

I've not got time to mooch through books at the moment I'd have a look later if this doesn't answer your question.
When I say he was never in the box I was refering to the fact that he had at least one very strict teacher, presumably the others weren't exactly easy going and yet at the end of it all he comes out with something new, Aikido. Now from what I've read it's not surprising that someone as spirtual and as dedicated to budo as Ueshiba was could have just suddently decided over night that he'd go off in a new and radical direction, he must have been mulling the idea over for decades potentially. So all through that strict training the nucleus of the philosophy that became Aikido must have been there, maybe even as far back as age 15.
I wasn't saying that our young friend is another Ueshiba yet or that it's certain he ever will be. I was just pointing out that his attitude of curiousity and experimentation rather than being a negative thing is actually quite healthy. That's not to say he shouldn't study diligently in a more conventional sence like other Aikidoka, I'm saying the combination of the two could end up making him something a bit special in the long run. He is only 15 after all, I'm sure if Ueshiba had of spouted off that he was going to create a Budo based on harmony and love at 15 he'd of recived a few weird comments.


Contradicting who? Ueshiba Sensei? The poster above? I'll have to re-read the thread...I don't see what you are talking about. I see experienced people kindly letting a relatively young, inexperienced person know some things that might help him. I see no supposed superiority...it is just a simple fact that someone who has been training 10 years (regardless of rank), in more than one art, who is 30 to 45, would be a worthy person to listen to if you are 15, and new to an art. No big deal though...this won't be the first time someone young ignores advice from an elder, and it won't be the last. Chances are, our young friend will survive and learn on his own quite well in the long run.

Best,
Ron
I said at the begining of my post it's obvious to pretty much everyone which was a polite way of excluding everyone except the post I was aiming at which reminds me a little too much of some of the attitudes I have to put up with in my training. Should have been more specific there, my fault.

Ron Tisdale
10-31-2006, 11:14 AM
Sorry, even after reading your explanation, I'm with George on this one.

Best,
Ron

Ketsan
10-31-2006, 11:19 AM
I would completely disagree with this. O-sensei spent plenty of time "inside the box". It's just that the vast majority of information we have about him comes from the last half of his life. In the very early 1930's when he was still teaching Daito Ryu, he had already trained longer than the vast majority of the folks reading this forum.

He started training when he was young. he had a VERY solid base as a foundation for his later development of Aikido. There isn't anyone in Aikido who is any good who has just gone off in his own direction before he had understood the essentials. The "box" exists for a reason. The box represents the inherited collective knowledge passed down by those who have gone before. Before you leave the box, you need to understand what is in the box. The idea that O-sensei did not go through this process is incorrect and represents a misleading model for those coming along behind.

Umm, we're not talking about the same box. Yes he did his training like everyone else, there is no way around that, it has to be done. But the mindset that he had during his training was obviously different (outside of the box) from your average student because he took his knowledge in a radical new direction.

So what I'm saying is Sean still has to do all the kata and study it as hard as anyone else to get that foundation but if he keeps a mindset that asks questions and pushes things in a new direction he'll do well.

Does that clarify things?

Ron Tisdale
10-31-2006, 12:00 PM
If that was all you'd said to begin with, I can't see that anyone would think it a big deal...but the inaccuracies about Ueshiba, the attacks on rank (not that rank doesn't deserve a good attack now and again), and the generalized attack on the posters in the thread gave quite a different impression than

"Sean still has to do all the kata and study it as hard as anyone else to get that foundation but if he keeps a mindset that asks questions and pushes things in a new direction he'll do well."

I understand better with the caveats you've added since...but perhaps writing a little clearer at the get go and not casting aspersions would serve your purpose better (in spite of being frustrated with things on your local mat -- you could do a seperate post about that).

Best,
Ron

Alec Corper
10-31-2006, 02:30 PM
Sometimes I get a bit depressed. I have obviously been doing this Budo thing all wrong. After nearly 16 years of aikido and 14 years of other MA I'm still trying to get the basics down and there are 15 year old gokyus inventing new techniques. Must be time to quit!

Aristeia
10-31-2006, 02:32 PM
maybe you've just learned the techniques and not the concepts ;-)

Alec Corper
10-31-2006, 02:36 PM
I think that's it, no one told me about the concepts.

Bronson
11-01-2006, 03:32 AM
A question for the folks here. On the occasions when a new technique or variation presents itself to you, do you work it through in your head from the nage or the uke role? I realized tonight that I usually envision techniques from the uke side of things. If I can imagine what my body is supposed to do as uke I can figure out what nage's body has to do to fit in around uke to make the tech. happen.

It's late.... does that make any sense :confused:

Bronson

raul rodrigo
11-01-2006, 03:35 AM
Sometimes I work out a new idea by visualizing myself as nage. I've never done it from the viewpoint of uke. And then there are the times i did something new without thinking about it all and had to reconstruct it afterward.

raul rodrigo
11-01-2006, 04:02 AM
By new, I don't mean I created a waza new to aikido, just new to me. Something I hadn't done yet nor seen yet from any of my teachers but which is actually implicit in the body of existing aikido technique.

Jorge Garcia
11-02-2006, 07:31 AM
I've been doing Aikido for a measly 12 years but I have accidentally "created" a few new techniques. Once when doing a demo, the uke backhanded me with a hammer fist and I instinctively blocked it and then to keep him from hitting me with the other hand, I grabbed his fist and ran in a circle behind him. I learned that he couldn't get away as he was helplessly spinning in a circle following his own hand. I then turned it into sankyo and stopped and the uke ran right into the sankyo! Everybody clapped but it was an accident and unplanned. I have used that many times since against a slashing attack and it works every time.

SeanHaeussinger2
11-03-2006, 02:39 AM
As I mentioned a Sumi Otoshi deviant, I thought up another one.
Of course it's stil katatedori, the technique I'd think would be called "Sumi Otoshi Koshinage Kotegaeshi". And there's jsut Sumi Otoshi Koshinage or just Sumi Otoshi Kotegaeshi. Please try
this, and please tell your dojo about my techniques. Maybe someday I could show the readers of this thread. And I remind you to post any new techniques, if you pay attention to your mistakes,
and practice them to be an actual technique. You adults have more time & some of you may ahave a little fame I hope to have soon, so if you THINK UP (or practice) a Sumi Otoshi variant before me, it's yours (pre existing Sumi Otoshi [Shomenuchi Sumi Otoshi,
Munetsuki Sumi Otoshi, etc.] doesn't count)
.

SeanHaeussinger2
11-03-2006, 02:50 AM
I've been doing Aikido for a measly 12 years but I have accidentally "created" a few new techniques. Once when doing a demo, the uke backhanded me with a hammer fist and I instinctively blocked it and then to keep him from hitting me with the other hand, I grabbed his fist and ran in a circle behind him. I learned that he couldn't get away as he was helplessly spinning in a circle following his own hand. I then turned it into sankyo and stopped and the uke ran right into the sankyo! Everybody clapped but it was an accident and unplanned. I have used that many times since against a slashing attack and it works every time.Wow. I thought you were gonna refer to a messed Kotegaeshi Ura.
I can see Jujinage in there ;) .

Ron Tisdale
11-03-2006, 06:16 AM
Sean, these are not new combinations of waza. They've been around a long time. They certainly aren't the personal property of anyone...

Good way to keep your eyes open though. You'll see a lot of things like this as you train.

Best,
Ron (personally partial to almost any arm control combined with koshinage / kesa giri...ikkajo, nikkajo, sumi otoshi, jujinage, etc. The most dangerous combination I've found is leg sweep / koshinage combined with shihonage...calls for some spectacular ukemi...kids, don't try this at home) ;)

Ron Tisdale
11-03-2006, 07:13 AM
Sean, I ran across this article, and found it interesting that Bernie Lau started training at 14. Thought you might enjoy it...

Best,
Ron

http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_1101.htm

SeanHaeussinger2
11-04-2006, 12:55 AM
Sean, these are not new combinations of waza. They've been around a long time. They certainly aren't the personal property of anyone...

Good way to keep your eyes open though. You'll see a lot of things like this as you train.

Best,
Ron (personally partial to almost any arm control combined with koshinage / kesa giri...ikkajo, nikkajo, sumi otoshi, jujinage, etc. The most dangerous combination I've found is leg sweep / koshinage combined with shihonage...calls for some spectacular ukemi...kids, don't try this at home) ;)You sure? The EXACT, PARTICULAR one I mentioned, already existant?

Tomas Grana
11-05-2006, 04:47 PM
Once I was discussing the subject of the relative sizes of technique "portfolios" (if you will) in different arts, with a buddy of mine who does karate, and he told me one of those stories that sound like they are out of a badly dubbed wuxia movie:
A cat and a fox were sitting in the woods talking. The fox kept telling the cat about how many different ways of escaping his predators he knew, while the cat only knew one.... the fox laughed at him but all of a sudden a pack of wolves appeared and while the cat instinctively climbed up a tree to safety, the fox took too long deciding what to do and was eaten by the wolves....

The story may be made up by my friend or his sensei, or even irrelevant to the discussion the way others see it, but this is how I view keiko anyway: concentrate on the basics until they are second nature, then you can start to play around....
from the perspective of someone who is somewhere in the middle (not 15 years old or gokyu, neither 40 or judan (remotely)), I can see both sides. I remember being new to aikido, being very excited and trying to see what I could do or "come up with". Once I got to see a little more (hint: I started going to seminars) I realized what a wealth of motions and techniques there are, how simple some are, yet I never thought of them... then I started trying to see what I can do, still, but a little less thinking about "coming up" with new stuff myself...

just my two cents (sorry about the length)
Tom

Kevin Wilbanks
11-05-2006, 08:44 PM
Please try
this, and please tell your dojo about my techniques. Maybe someday I could show the readers of this thread....
.

I think you'll find that this thread is about the most seriously you'll ever be taken regarding your 'inventions'. You are simply barking up the wrong tree. Aikido is a tradition-based martial art that takes a long time to absorb and understand. It isn't a forum in which one can be a brash, creative young hotshot and gain any credibility or ego-recognition. Hardly anyone who has done Aikido for more than a year is going to have any idea where you are coming from or any interest in what you have "invented", as it is irrelevant to them.

To make a musical analogy, Aikido is maybe similar to learning classical piano or a type of traditional jazz that requries a heavy classical background. You barely know how to play scales and yet you expect to be hailed as a pioneer and genius. If you are looking for an art with wide-open creative possibilities and the chance for ego-recognition without first putting in decades of hard work, you need to find something more similar to punk or garage rock.

Ketsan
11-06-2006, 07:37 AM
If I believed there was a such a thing as technique and I'd invented a new one, I'd keep it to myself. You can invent a million and one techniques and be the best in the world at performing them but if you fail to grasp the underlying principles of those techniques then you still wont have learned much.
There are pleantly of techniques to learn already, add in the henka and there are even more and each one will give you an insight into
an aspect of the nature of Aikido.
Worry more about developing that insight than creating new manifestations of Aikido because you're just making life more difficult for yourself. The more techniques you "create" the more aspects you have to come to terms with, some of which will have already been demonstrated by other techniques.
I can understand that you look at Aikido and say "There isn't a specific technique to cover x". It's true there isn't a technique for every situation. We'd end up being a martial version of Hinduism, with 380 million different techniques covering all possible aspects of the principle of Aiki in every situation. The beauty of Aikido is that with a meer eleven basic techniques you can get close to understanding the principle of Aiki and once you understand Aiki you have a solution for all situations.

If not I want my money back. :D

Ron Tisdale
11-06-2006, 08:09 AM
You sure? The EXACT, PARTICULAR one I mentioned, already existant?

Pretty sure, yeah, but that ain't the point. Others have explained the point pretty well I think.

In any case,
Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
11-06-2006, 11:00 AM
I usually really hate to just post quotes...but this one made me think of this thread.

By Ueshiba Sensei;

The real purpose of the martial arts must be to purge oneself of petty ambitions and desire, to obtain control of one’s own character.

Best,
Ron (still working on my own character at 45...let me know if I ever get close)

John A Butz
11-06-2006, 11:02 AM
Ron I thought you were already a character

;)

Ron Tisdale
11-06-2006, 12:43 PM
:D Hey John! How's the crew? Please tell all I said hi...

Best,
Ron

Budd
11-06-2006, 01:39 PM
*shouts*

DOGPILE ON RON TISDALE!!!

.... okay back on topic.

I have to agree with others -- my approach to aikido is not based on learning a set number of techniques, but by training body mechanics to the point that you move yourself in a specific way and techniques just sorta happen.

jxa127
11-06-2006, 03:37 PM
Hi all,

Naturally, I agree with Budd. After training for a while, techniques just sort of happen. I've had a few "ah ha!" moments over the years that have proven the value of my aikido training.

The first was a simple demonstration after class when my instructor was talking to a prospective student. I had been training only for a year or so. Knowing that I had studies TKD, he asked me to prevent him from punching me using what I knew of TKD. He punched rapidly, and I was able to block a few, but it wasn't long before his punches were landing. Then he asked me to "do aikido." The only thing I could think of was to tenkan several times in a row, but that was effective in preventing him from punching me for longer than when I tried to block.

My point is simply that even after just a year of training, I had gained the ability to apply at least one fundamental concept spontaneously -- and in a situation not exactly like in practice.

A year or so later, I threw and pinned (without injury) a friend who was high on drugs by using a "technique" that we had never practiced. Just this past summer (five years later), my training as uke came in handy when I was able to wrap up and control the center of the same guy. No pin, no technique, but good control of his center -- and no injuries. That altercation led to treatment and rehab.

The thing is, I'm not that spectacular or talented. Just ask Budd, Ron, and John, they've trained with me. I strongly feel that the typical aikdo training method of introducing specific scenarios (grab my wrist with your hand on the same side and I will do ikkyo ura) as small kata leads very well to a greater understanding of the fundamental principles.

From that perspective, I see nothing wrong with a 13 year old trying to work out techniques for situations outside of the normal training regime. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that he's invented a new kata rather than a new technique. With practice, time, and a little bit of introspection, that kind of experimentation could lead to a good understanding of fundamental principles.

I'm done with my rambling.

Regards,

-Drew

Ron Tisdale
11-06-2006, 03:43 PM
Hi Drew! I agree...trying things out is a good thing...I think I mentioned that to him at least once. The ego thing...well...he'll probably grow out of it sooner than I will!

Best,
Ron (miss ya, ya big lug!)

ps, Budd! look out behind you! :D

Budd
11-06-2006, 03:58 PM
Drew!! (Great to hear from you -- family is well, I hope?)

I agree that it's good to have trained responses to specific situations.

Kinda to one of your points, I think there's a 'danger' in the paired 'kata' approach (in aikido) -- in that often there's a Card A into Slot B response type of methodology, rather than focusing on the core body skills (or fundamental movements) that are the building blocks of any 'technique'.

Where as you mention controlling the center, I've met folks that (taking ikkyo as an example) worry so much about controlling the arm they've grabbed, they've basically set themselves up for a counter (depending on the ettiquette of the situation - sometimes you're in a position to show them this or have it shown to you) -- precisely because they are in the mindset of "HE GRABBED MY WRIST AND I WILL NOW THROW HIM".

I like both of your examples (sounds like excellent aikido to me). As for anyone asking about training with you, I think you bring good energy and a great attitude to anyplace you visit and I'm always happy to be on the mat with you.

Best/Budd

P.S. How the heck did Ron Tisdale get behind me (must be that Pilates Ninjutsu class he's taking) . . .

jxa127
11-06-2006, 03:59 PM
HI Ron,

Yeah, well, the ego thing... I look back on my training at times when I thought I had pretty well "gotten it" and just sort of laugh at myself. It seems to happen every year and a half, and then something happens to remind me that I've still got a lot to learn. Now, at least, I can recognize the pattern.

Regards,

SeanHaeussinger2
11-06-2006, 11:35 PM
I hope my knowledge can branch off to a new style. I bet I can make up techniques against kicks, but keep it within Aikido.
Yesterday on open mat, I tried Ikkyo with a straight kick.

Bronson
11-07-2006, 01:47 AM
That's already been done.

Sorry,

Bronson

SeanHaeussinger2
11-07-2006, 01:57 AM
That's already been done.

Sorry,

BronsonIkkyo from a kick. Which style of Aikido?

Aristeia
11-07-2006, 01:59 AM
I hope my knowledge can branch off to a new style. I bet I can make up techniques against kicks, but keep it within Aikido.
Yesterday on open mat, I tried Ikkyo with a straight kick.Sean it seems to me that rather than stumbling across a bunch of new techniques and realising you've developed a different style, you have a goal of branching off a new style so are looking to create techniques to accomplisht that. That being the case - why is it you wish to create your own style if you don't mind me asking?

raul rodrigo
11-07-2006, 02:42 AM
Its hard enough trying to make your aikido become a passable rendition of an "old" style—like Chiba, Saito, Yamaguchi, Saotome, etc. That alone should take over 20 years of hard practice. With so much to choose from, why try to be new? Unless being "new" is really the point, the whole goal? You can try it, of course, nothing is stopping you. But I fear that the compulsion to be "new" will get in the way of simply being competent. It might be better to stay 10 or 15 years with an "old" kind of aikido. Then you might have a different idea about how important being new is. My two cents.

Ron Tisdale
11-07-2006, 07:51 AM
Just about every style of aikido has waza that work well against your average kicker if you know how to apply it. Some styles work that sort of application more than others. One thing to be aware of is that your uke must be able to take ukemi...one of the newbies (a couple of years) asked me about what I'd do against a round house kick...I almost hurt him showing him a simple enter and turn movement. He forgot about the fact that lifting his foot up reduced his stability.

One of the seniors gave me a light slap on the butt for that one...always be nice to your beginners! ;)

Best,
Ron (yoshinkan style now, but I've seen waza against kicking attacks in at least 3 other dojo)

John A Butz
11-07-2006, 08:19 AM
Until you can manifest the foundational principles your instructor is teaching, dont worry about making anything up. Just train.

Ketsan
11-08-2006, 07:34 PM
Ikkyo from a kick. Which style of Aikido?

Sean, we're Aikikai and we have techniques from kicks. Admittedly it's not something we practice, but techniques from kicks has all been worked out. I've studied various arts with kicks so I usually get asked to take ukemi every time someone asks my sensei about kicks.

Defending against mae geri is no different from defending against chudan tsuki except that uke is more likely to fall over when you redirect their attack or be unbalanced long enough for tori to close down the distance and deal with them.
The same is true of mawashi geri being basically the same as yokomen, harmonise and take the leg, throw uke.

True, there are kicks that because of their deceptive nature might be more dangerous; I'm thinking mikazuki geri or ura mawashi geri in particular but again once you've seen them you see that mikazuki geri is pretty much like yokomen in terms of defence and ura mawashi geri shouldn't be too much of an issue because as an Aikidoka you should have moved either inside of it or out of range, as with all attacks.

SeanHaeussinger2
11-09-2006, 12:06 AM
Until you can manifest the foundational principles your instructor is teaching, dont worry about making anything up. Just train.One of the assistant instructors of my class told me that.

SeanHaeussinger2
11-09-2006, 12:07 AM
Sean, we're Aikikai and we have techniques from kicks. Admittedly it's not something we practice, but techniques from kicks has all been worked out. I've studied various arts with kicks so I usually get asked to take ukemi every time someone asks my sensei about kicks.

Defending against mae geri is no different from defending against chudan tsuki except that uke is more likely to fall over when you redirect their attack or be unbalanced long enough for tori to close down the distance and deal with them.
The same is true of mawashi geri being basically the same as yokomen, harmonise and take the leg, throw uke.

True, there are kicks that because of their deceptive nature might be more dangerous; I'm thinking mikazuki geri or ura mawashi geri in particular but again once you've seen them you see that mikazuki geri is pretty much like yokomen in terms of defence and ura mawashi geri shouldn't be too much of an issue because as an Aikidoka you should have moved either inside of it or out of range, as with all attacks.Hmmmmm, tori. I thought you're Aikikai! And tori is Yoshinkan, no?

SeanHaeussinger2
11-09-2006, 12:12 AM
Sean it seems to me that rather than stumbling across a bunch of new techniques and realising you've developed a different style, you have a goal of branching off a new style so are looking to create techniques to accomplisht that. That being the case - why is it you wish to create your own style if you don't mind me asking?Because I don't feel training with the existing weapons one trains with plus empty hand is good for training with guns. Plus, I could see about developing one's ability to dodge bullets. It's only a matter of timing.

raul rodrigo
11-09-2006, 01:16 AM
Because I don't feel training with the existing weapons one trains with plus empty hand is good for training with guns. Plus, I could see about developing one's ability to dodge bullets. It's only a matter of timing.

Dodge bullets? Okay. Good luck with that.

Ketsan
11-09-2006, 07:35 AM
Hmmmmm, tori. I thought you're Aikikai! And tori is Yoshinkan, no?

As far as I am aware the general terms in the Aikikai are Uke and Nage. However in our association there seems, because of the way Aikido was introduced, to be quite a lot of Judo terminology used. So we've ended up with Uke and Tori.

Yoshinkan I believe use Uke and Shite.

RampantWolf
11-09-2006, 07:36 AM
...dodge bullets. It's only a matter of timing.

I'll say... as in spend your time practicing something else.

If you're really keen on it try paintball, with a muzzle velocity of around 300fps it's about 1/4 the speed of a handgun bullet, then come back and let us know how your bullet dodging is going.

jxa127
11-09-2006, 12:16 PM
Gavin,

300 feet per second is only a bit less than about half the speed of the standard .45 auto, and I'd still not want to try dodging it!

Sean, do yourself a favor and DO NOT TRY TO DODGE BULLETS!

Any type of training with a firearm is very dangerous. DO NOT USE LOADED GUNS FOR ANY TYPE OF AIKIDO TRAINING.

I started shooting about 20 years ago. I have never been injured, or injured anyone with a firearm in all that time. The only way this is possible is by NOT POINTING A LOADED (OR EVEN UNLOADED) GUN AT ANYBODY.

I did once train with unloaded, permanently deactivated guns, but even then, we checked them every time they changed hands.

Regards, and stay safe!

DonMagee
11-09-2006, 12:37 PM
I have actually been able to see the paintballs coming at me from a few yards out, I can see their arch, but there has never been a time where I have been able to doge a paintball. I have however been able to hear the muzzle noise and hit the dirt to dodge the paint ball. But that has always been while moving already low and quick angle changes making tracking harder.

The closest I have ever been shot with a piantball gun has been about 3 feet, it broke the skin and left a horrible bruise on my back for about 2 months. I do not suggest using a paintball gun.

Ketsan
11-09-2006, 05:25 PM
I've dodged paintballs once or twice on reflex (out of the probably thousands that have been shot at me) and I've seen other people do it but unless you've got someone firing single shots you'll probably just be hit by the next paintball in the burst.

SeanHaeussinger2
11-10-2006, 12:02 AM
I'll say... as in spend your time practicing something else.

If you're really keen on it try paintball, with a muzzle velocity of around 300fps it's about 1/4 the speed of a handgun bullet, then come back and let us know how your bullet dodging is going.I already know. But would't it be better for beginners if one trains with soft bullets?

Aristeia
11-10-2006, 01:06 AM
is there anyone left that *doesn't* think this is a troll job?

xuzen
11-10-2006, 01:12 AM
Hmmmm Aristeia, SeanH is from Jiai dojo and I believe people like Jeff Soderman or Roy Dean may know of existence of SeanH (if he is truly who he is).

As for creating new techniques, are you truly creating new techniques or are have you just stumble upon something new. Given that the OP is a 13 year K1D, I think is more of the latter, assuming this is not a TROLL job.

Boon.

akiy
11-10-2006, 09:59 AM
Thread closed since it's merely talking about itself without any constructive discussion and straying into personal attacks.

-- Jun