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Joyce Lunas
10-21-2006, 03:46 PM
Hi everybody. As we were training today at the dojo, Sensei showed us again the basic blocks, one of them being yankyo. Then he decided to "use" me in order to let me see the move step-by-step, up close. And just because I didn't fall down immediately it really hurt! And here i was thinking blocks like ushiro katadori, kote gaeshi etc. only hurt! Silly girl...  :)

Any ideas for ...less pain, perhaps?

Thank you
C u around

Mary Turner
10-21-2006, 05:34 PM
Hi Joyce,

It was the last technique I learned before my 4th kyu test, I only practiced a couple times because none of the higher belts wanted to practice it! It seems like it stings a lot no matter what but if you can shoot your legs out from under you and get flat on the mat really fast, it's best.

Good luck,
Mary

jason jordan
10-21-2006, 05:49 PM
Any ideas for ...less pain, perhaps?

Thank you
C u around

Yess!!!!!!!
Keep practicing for many many many years! Until you actually start to miss the pain!!!

Train hard!!!

Eddie deGuzman
10-21-2006, 08:26 PM
Hi Joyce,

Yonkyo is supposed to hurt. :freaky: That's what causes the attacker to submit. At what level of pain the attacker will give up varies somewhat so it's important to be aware of when to stop. No need to piss off your partner. ;)
On the other hand, as attacker, it is also important not to "fall" before the pain comes, otherwise it never becomes a learning experience.

In this particular instance, "No pain, no gain" seems appropriate. :) Try not to shy away from the pain because yonkyo hurts. Instead, look forward to the day people collapse at your all powerful Vulcan-like touch! :D

Good training,
Eddie

raul rodrigo
10-21-2006, 09:20 PM
Actually (and its been pointed out on these forums a couple of times before), yonkyo doesn't necessarily hurt. There are people whose wrists are so constructed that they dont really feel a lot of pain even when nage really cranks it up. So the important thing is to get the lock structurally correct so even a yonkyo-resistant uke can't get out. Dont expect that the pain alone will be enough for success.

Don_Modesto
10-21-2006, 09:59 PM
Actually (and its been pointed out on these forums a couple of times before), yonkyo doesn't necessarily hurt.Yeah, some folks just smile. If you don't have the body mechanics right, UKE is not going down.

Watch some Osensei films and look at the angle of his body when he applies 4 KYO. That's a hint to execution.

Also, it's well born in mind that the 4th technique comes after the 3rd, not only in numbering, but in resistance scenarios--if 1 fails, go to 2, to 3, to 4.

These helped me with execution, anyway (quite off the original topic, of course. Sorry.)

Eddie deGuzman
10-22-2006, 07:51 AM
There are people whose wrists are so constructed that they dont really feel a lot of pain even when nage really cranks it up.

Bloody Mutants! :mad:

Eddie

Karen Wolek
10-22-2006, 10:20 AM
Bloody Mutants! :mad:

Eddie

I'm one of the mutants. :D

Instead, my sensei digs his knuckle into my wrist bone instead. Sometimes that works. But really, he doesn't need to cause the pain...the way he moves is enough to make me fall.

The pain is just a bonus.

markwalsh
10-22-2006, 01:58 PM
Yeah - Yonkyo is mechanics not pain, stupid to rely on pain, is just extra for fun. Will become sweet, don't worry. If really too much ask partner to do less! People don't have any special rights over your body just because its an aikido class.

But pain isn't the problem - life has all kind of pain in it and this just gets worse as you get older (chances of disease, injury and grief all increase) so relax and get used to it now. Learn to differentiate between the types of pain, pain that injures, stimulates, redirects...or quit aikido for Mortal Combat..either way.

Been thinking a lot about this recently - how we all want a comfortable pain free life but that its impossible. Better to change how we see pain I think, its not necessarily violence.

roninroshi
10-22-2006, 04:20 PM
Mutant here as well...

graham
10-22-2006, 05:05 PM
Also, it's well born in mind that the 4th technique comes after the 3rd, not only in numbering, but in resistance scenarios--if 1 fails, go to 2, to 3, to 4.

I'd not heard that before. Thanks.

raul rodrigo
10-22-2006, 06:00 PM
I'm a mutant too.


R

justin
10-23-2006, 06:25 AM
if you do a search on lenard sensei a regular poster on here you will find an excellent thread on why you should rely on pain as a guide to how effective a technique is, when i read the post it was one of those big penny dropping moments for me, in a way i wish i hadnt read it as i then had to change my whole way of thinking towards pins :mad:

Eric Webber
10-23-2006, 10:40 AM
In my dojo there is a tradition that has developed: a junior student asks the senior student "What's yonkyo?" and everyone who knows "the story" chuckles.

Story is that a junior student many years ago (who is now senior in the dojo) asked this question in the changing room, and his senior at the time proceeded to drive him into the floor with a killer yonkyo. Years later I asked the junior student of the preceding story (it was only he and I training that evening and he was my senior): "Hey sempai, what's yonkyo?" and he proceedes to chuckle then drive me into the mat with a killer yonkyo, then tell of his experience with that question.

So now, many years later, when someone asks me what yonkyo is, I laugh (as does anyone else present who's asked this question), then put "a little yonkyo" on the curious person, and recite the story for them.

Ahhh, the traditions that to live on....

Amanda
10-24-2006, 03:16 AM
I guess I'm a mutant too, my Sensei can get me sometimes but no one else has managed it. I still submit to yonkyo because of the pressure on my forearm. The other problem is that some people take it as a challenge so I can end up with quite stunning bruises.

ian
10-24-2006, 09:35 AM
I love the feeling the next day when you can hardly move your hands ;)

Yonkyo is a typical one that there can be difficulties getting it on. I put some tips here:


http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/yonkyo

Also, to reduce the pain on yourself it does seem to be effective (don't ask me how!) to imagine key flow to this point, and to have a 'feeling' of extension through this point - give it a go.

Joyce Lunas
10-24-2006, 10:47 AM
Wow! Thank you, everybody. Each of you had sth interesting to say and i sure appreciate your immediate replies to this question of mine. I already know i can count on your help, for future reference.
By the way, thanx also for the correction: yOnkyo and not yAnkyo as i wrote :)
Feels sooooo good to know that there's someone out there to help.
Incidentally, it took the giant bruise 4 or 5 days to go away. My sensei's first "gift" to me..... But i dont feel sad about it; I am sure he will give me plenty others if I ask him ;)

C u around, everybody
Take care and have fun

Jess McDonald
10-25-2006, 12:04 AM
YOYO!! :)
Just yesterday I was a class where we did yonkyo. I happened to unknowingly "ongaishemas" to a very aggressive male. He did yonkyo on me several times and it *&^ing hurt!!! After several futile attempts to get the bas$%#^ back, I finally made HIM tap!! It was awesome to reciprocate the pain! Yonkyo is extremely powerful and very painful :uch: . With this guy, falling didn't help relieve the pain. I just took it like a man and tried to "get back at him". The one time I did was worth my sore arms of today. P.S. I know I shouldn't be trying to hurt my partners but this guy was ridiculous; it struck a competitive nerve in me :grr: . I would also like to use this time to play my "I'm a 6th kyu and don't know any better" card. Cheerio yonkyo friends!! :) :D
Jess

batemanb
10-25-2006, 03:00 AM
Also, it's well born in mind that the 4th technique comes after the 3rd, not only in numbering, but in resistance scenarios--if 1 fails, go to 2, to 3, to 4.

These helped me with execution, anyway (quite off the original topic, of course. Sorry.)

I always go to ikkyo first before attempting nikkyo, sankyo and yonkyo. From ikkyo, apply a sankyo twist to the wrist with one hand, this will create tension through the arm and help with locking it up, but also helps "expose" the nerves in the forearm for you to "massage" with the index knuckle of your other hand. :).

Don't get caught up in trying to induce pain though, putting uke into position to apply the correct pin is the objective, pain is not required to get there.

rgds
Bryan

Eddie deGuzman
10-25-2006, 09:39 AM
Hey All,

No offense to the mutant forearm DNA crowd, but I wonder if yonkyo doesn't have more to do with the expertise of nage. There are yudansha in my dojo who can't do yonkyo on me, but the shihan always have me flopping like a fish out of water.

The same holds true for me. I do better with those less experienced than me and have a tougher time with those higher up the food chain.

The no pain mechanics work, but I wonder also if that is not a separate skill from the cut itself. Seated in seiza and applying yonkyo straight down into uke's forearms seems to me a separate skill than the standing version.

Food for thought,
Eddie

DonMagee
10-25-2006, 12:13 PM
I'm actually very much immune to pain that does not cause physical damage. Just a couple of years ago, pain would of gotten me to comply. Now you are going to have to do more then just cause pain. Otherwise I just ignore it and keep going. I'm a firm believer that you should never use pain for compliance, use threat of broken bones, torn tendons, or loss of blood/air to the head.

raul rodrigo
10-25-2006, 08:28 PM
I was yonkyo resistant when I was a white belt, so my skill or tori's level of skill was irrelevant. I remember when we used to do the ikkyo to gokkyo series, yonkyo was the time I got a break from the pain. And these tori were often our yudansha, who were pretty capable of bringing tears to my eyes with nikyo or hijikime. I just got a break with one kind of osae.

The yudansha would bring me down with yonkyo anyway, because their cut down was impeccable.

And as our shihan said once during one demonstration of yonkyo: "ahh, he feels no pain? okay we break the arm."

Tambreet
10-25-2006, 10:44 PM
I'm one of those people who doesn't understand how yonkyo doesn't hurt some people.

We have one student at our dojo though (a true mutant?) who feels absolutely no pain from joint locks. Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo - none of them work on him, not even when applied by the senseis. He feels pressure from some of them, but no pain, and has learned to tap or go down before any bones break.

It certainly adds a new perspective to doing the techniques!

Douglas Fajardo
10-26-2006, 08:02 AM
Hi Joyce
I know it hurts a lot , in my opinon ,please train a lot in order to be a better aikidoka , by the way, only experience will help you to feel less pain,but you will feel it anyway ,jajajajaj

daniel loughlin
10-26-2006, 01:27 PM
why am i the 1st person to simple say DURH ?

Michael Hackett
10-26-2006, 03:16 PM
I am one of the unfortunate ones who feels yonkyo instantly and I have a relatively high pain threshold apparently because I have my dental work done without anethesia. The cut down and pin are effective, even without the pain. One of my dojo mates was working up for his 4th kyu test and I agreed to work with him before and after classes to take falls for him with the understanding that he only got five yonkyo pins on each side per night. This went on for about a month and when the test came, Sensei did not ask for yonkyo at all and told me later that he knew my partner could do it as he had been watching it every night. Ouch!

What does seem to help with the residual pain and bruising is to massage the area vigorously along the bone line for a few seconds after each application.

SeanHaeussinger2
10-28-2006, 07:26 PM
I learned before my 4th kyu test, I only practiced a couple times because none of the higher belts wanted to practice it!
4th Kyu is blue belt from my class, knowing Aikido only does white & black.

Joyce Lunas
10-29-2006, 11:25 AM
why am i the 1st person to simple say DURH ?


Hi Daniel,
What does DURH mean?


C u around,
Joyce

Selnith
11-06-2006, 09:15 AM
Mutant and Proud! :D the dan's i generally train with have come up with some great ways to make me tap though, like grinding the bones of my forearm together :freaky: but so long as you have elbow control uke goes down, one particular dan i know used me as an example because i'm a mutant, put me to the mat, then looped an arm around my neck and proceeded to strangle me till i tapped
:ai::ki::do:

Beard of Chuck Norris
11-06-2006, 10:23 AM
Unfortunately, i am no mutant! Yonkyo hurts, usually more so if it is done incorrectly.....

When training (being uke) and yonkyo is applied i have become very aware that a poorly applied yonkyo can be very sore! More like the feeling of an almighty nip inside my fore arm and of course, a big old bruise follows!

I've been informed and also experienced that a correct yonkyo will not leave a bruise. Tis just a shame that we had to wait till the day after to see if any bruises came up to point out the mistakes!!

peace and love

jo.

Mato-san
11-15-2006, 08:58 AM
When I come home after a good session of yonkyo practice I have black and blue forearms, I enjoy hard practice like that. But also if you practice with women and children you need to tone it down.
Maybe you are in the wrong class, maybe you need to tell Sensei to tone down some peers....every situation is different. In general I myself tone it for my peers,hard and soft, unfortunatly not all Aikido players do it like that.

Mike Grant
11-20-2006, 05:11 AM
Mutant and Proud! :D the dan's i generally train with have come up with some great ways to make me tap though, like grinding the bones of my forearm together :freaky: but so long as you have elbow control uke goes down, one particular dan i know used me as an example because i'm a mutant, put me to the mat, then looped an arm around my neck and proceeded to strangle me till i tapped
:ai::ki::do:
Tapping is for wimps.

Chiburi
11-28-2006, 07:52 PM
I have no idea if I am a mutant or not. It takes ALOT for me to feel pain or pressure. Sensei says it might be that I'm just extra flexible with a high tolerance for pain because I been doing it for X amount of years.
My nickname in dojo though is Gumby whenever any pins come up. The only one that really gets me is Nikyo, but that's just cuz' I know I'll get broken again if I don't tap in time.
I may be a tap-out wimp, but I'd rather train than spend the next month in cast on the sidelines!! ;)

Walter Martindale
12-12-2006, 08:35 AM
I'll echo a few of the other posters here. Yonkyo can certainly hurt. One sensei in my past tells of yonkyo races across the mat - 2 nage, 1 uke, and it's a bit like a wheelbarrow race. I've not seen or felt this, fortunately. Most sensei I've seen and felt use the pain portion of any of these techniques, including yonkyo, as "backup" and ensure that the positioning and movement of nage and the direction and shape of the 'cut' are what makes the technique happen. I've had my radial nerve bruised to blazes by someone who couldn't make me move with yonkyo, with me unable to properly use my hand for a few days afterward, and I've been bounced around like a (95 kg) noodle by someone who moved properly but caused no pain.
I _think_ that if you learn to reliably do the immobilization through good movement, and strengthen your grip and movement so that you can usually achieve the pain in an uke, you will be well off.
Rgds.
Walter

Ron Tisdale
12-12-2006, 08:52 AM
:) You must be yoshinkan... ;)
One sensei in my past tells of yonkyo races across the mat - 2 nage, 1 uke, and it's a bit like a wheelbarrow race.

I've done that....
Best,
Ron

Adam Huss
12-14-2006, 06:21 PM
:) You must be yoshinkan... ;)


I've done that....
Best,
Ron


Oh yeah, the gool 'ole "Iron Cross." Good training.
Cheers,

~Adam

Ron Tisdale
12-15-2006, 08:59 AM
Can you imagine having Mustard Sensei on one arm, and Parker Shihan on the other??? :crazy: :hypno: :yuck:

Best,
Ron :D

Eddie Heinzelman
12-17-2006, 10:06 PM
My sensei never seems to miss with his yankyo....and I've learned to go with whatever he sends my way. I tend to have to really apply some pressure to him, but once I hit the right spot, he lets me know immediately :0)

Walter Martindale
12-18-2006, 12:33 PM
:) You must be yoshinkan... ;)


I've done that....
Best,
Ron

I've watched a Yoshinkan practice once - does that count? ;)
Aikikai seems to be the path I'm strolling along.
Walter