Criss Angel and Koichi Tohei [Archive]

kocakb

10-12-2006, 01:04 AM

Hi Fellows,
You all may have watched the video of K. Tohei (http://www.aikidojournal.com/download_media.php?media=video&id=29), performing some of Ki exercises...Yesterday, I came across on Criss Angel, an illusionist, on TV. He was doing the same thing, and behaving like he has magic powers :) I searched it on youtube, and here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WECwe0kbeY0&search=Criss%20Angel

My question is, do you practice (or how often) Ki exercises in your dojo? I can not stand "nailed" like Tohei (and O'Sensei, you know his pics, he's sitting and ukes are trying to push-pull him)...I think these exercises could help to improve the effectiveness of our techniques.

I am only able to do the "unbendable arm" and did it during a gokyu training. The nage could not bend my arm while we were on ground...The guy asked sensei for help, I let my Ki flow through my fingers :cool: , my sensei tried to bend my arm gently and threaded with his knee on my neck thereafter. What I have learned; Sensei has more Ki :uch:

crbateman

10-12-2006, 04:20 AM

The subject of Ki (qi, chi, etc.) is a controversial one, even within Aikido. Many swear by it, others swear AT it. Many feel it is fundamental, others scoff that it doesn't exist. Those in Tohei Sensei's Ki Society (Ki no Kenkyukai) have spent the bulk of their training embracing and developing it.

Rather than incite a controversy in this thread, I'll just stay on-topic here by saying that I have seen dojos outside the Ki Society where Ki training is also an integral part of the curriculum, and other dojos where Ki gets little or no mention at all. It is a very subjective thing. Many are getting Ki training without recognizing it as such.

And your Sensei doesn't have more Ki than you... He just knows how to use his better... :p

raul rodrigo

10-12-2006, 07:22 AM

Ecosamurai

10-12-2006, 07:58 AM

Angell is converting the horizontal force of the push into a vertical one, diverting it into the ground. (its vital that his hands are on uke's elbow, it helps him divert the force downward) Its a trick that Shingo Nakao Shihan showed to my sensei. Though we haven't done it with ten people pushing. I've seen an aikido shihan, Motohiro Fukakusa, do the unliftable body trick. I have no idea how he does it.

All of those things are standard Ki Society exercises and are not particularly difficult to do if you are relaxed and coordinated. I'd wager that most of the aikido teachers you may have seen doing such things picked it up from Tohei Sensei, he was after all the aikikai chief instructor so his influence would have travelled quite far. Of course there's no way to verify that other than asking the sensei concerned where he/she learned to do it.

With regard to the horizontal force, only the first two or three people really make a difference, all the rest are just pushing each other and not really contributing to the force placed upon him, adding extra people makes it look more impressive but thats all it does IMO.

Mike

Guillaume Erard

10-12-2006, 08:20 AM

Although I am understand the basic concepts of vital energy and so on, I have never experienced such a Ki demonstration myself. All I have seen came form from O Sensei and Tohei's videos. I really wish I could have witnessed such a thing but as a scientist, I find it hard to believe since no study has ever shown the manifestation of theis Ki.
The thing that bemuses me the most is the video where OS holds a stick pushed at a 90 degrees angle by several students. Did he actually control his Ki or his student's mind? We might actually be looking at the wrong person during these exercises...

Does anyone here has personnally experienced (or mastered??) one of these exrecises?

As for the guy's video, he also walks up walls in another video... gravity is one thing I DO believe in... :)

Ecosamurai

10-12-2006, 08:43 AM

as a scientist, I find it hard to believe since no study has ever shown the manifestation of theis Ki.
The thing that bemuses me the most is the video where OS holds a stick pushed at a 90 degrees angle by several students. Did he actually control his Ki or his student's mind? We might actually be looking at the wrong person during these exercises...

Does anyone here has personnally experienced (or mastered??) one of these exrecises?

I can do all the things seen in the video, admittedly I've not tried it with that many people pushing but certainly if you can handle two people (which I have done in the past) it shouldn't make a difference, the 'tricks' aren't very hard and I'm not a particularly advanced student either for that matter. The jo trick I have never tried so I'm at a loss to explain it but maybe I'll do some investigating on the subject.

I too am a scientist by trade and I personally have no problem with the concept of ki as being anything other than scientific, I do not regard it as mystical. I prefer to think of 'ki' as being 'mind', and just as gravity is a force which only affects things which have mass, ki may be construed as a force which only affects things which have 'mind'.

Anyway, got to go, back to work...

Mike

kocakb

10-12-2006, 08:53 AM

Does anyone here has personnally experienced (or mastered??) one of these exrecises?
As for the guy's video, he also walks up walls in another video... gravity is one thing I DO believe in... :)

I have one of the books of Tohei, if you read the book, you feel it is very easy to do the unliftable body etc. He wrote that you should just relax and imagine that your feet are rooting deep to the ground...but I have never been able :D
the same thing for the unbendable arm: you should extend your arm and imagine an object in front of your fingers. You should try to push the object with your fingers (or imagine something flowing out through your finger point...It works, tested and approved ;)
and the guy, Criss, sure he is just an illusionist but knows every Ki exercise (the program on TV was longer than the Clip, he showed more tricks, which I are also in Tohei's book).

raul rodrigo

10-12-2006, 08:54 AM

All of those things are standard Ki Society exercises and are not particularly difficult to do if you are relaxed and coordinated.
Mike

How do you do the unliftable body trick? And please don't say 'just keep One Point.' It doesn't really help. I mean I can do the push trick without needing to refer to the One Point.What do you visualize? How is the lifting energy of the ukes dissipated?

R

Guillaume Erard

10-12-2006, 09:01 AM

I too am a scientist by trade and I personally have no problem with the concept of ki as being anything other than scientific, I do not regard it as mystical. I prefer to think of 'ki' as being 'mind', and just as gravity is a force which only affects things which have mass, ki may be construed as a force which only affects things which have 'mind'.

Mike

I like your vision about Ki, it pleases my brain; however, I have met so called "Ki specialists" who told me that Ki was much more than that without explaining me in clear, concise English what they were talking about.

Since you can achieve these exercises, could you please explain to me how you physically perform them? Let's take the one with people pushing in front of you. Do you concentrate on "the one point" as Tohei says or is it all just a matter or redirecting the force? If the latter, we are therefore talking about a physical trick aren't we?

Guillaume Erard

10-12-2006, 09:05 AM

Joe Jutsu

10-12-2006, 09:06 AM

Well, I was sort of put on the spot the other day in a class that I assist. I'd really only successfully done the unliftable body "trick" once, and sensei pulled the two biggest guys in the class to lift me. To my relief, I correctly demonstrated this phenomena. You have to remain relaxed, any tension in your body will make your body rigid and easily moved. What I did was really keep my weight underside, and almost imagine myself as a shock absorber with a little bit of give. I also visualized a connection between my hands and my feet, as well as my feet and the floor. The look on these guys faces was awesome, especially since I let them lift me the first time and then changed my mind, which is really what's being tested here. I highly recommend checking out a Ki Society dojo if you are really interested in this sort of thing. Any legitimate instructor should have no problem demonstrating and helping you learn to do this. It's not something that you have to be godan to pull off by any means! (I'm a kyu FYI).

kocakb

10-12-2006, 09:14 AM

I also find Tohei's book a bit obscure. It seemed to me he should have written a book prior to Ki In Daily Life about what is the one point and how to concentrate on it (but I guess that is to encourage you to join the Ki society).

The book I have is translated into Turkish as Ki Energy: 4 Basic Application To Unify Mind and Body (http://www.ideefixe.com/tanim.asp?sid=R8960NUCME3EEJ93BS8T&referer=1122)
There is written that the one point is a few cm below your belly-center. To concentrate, he wrote that you should concentrate on the whole universe and minimizing it to one-single point.

Guillaume Erard

10-12-2006, 09:16 AM

The book I have is translated into Turkish as Ki Energy: 4 Basic Application To Unify Mind and Body (http://www.ideefixe.com/tanim.asp?sid=R8960NUCME3EEJ93BS8T&referer=1122)
There is written that the one point is a few cm below your belly-center. To concentrate, he wrote that you should concentrate on the whole universe and minimizing it to one-single point.

Hence my word "obscure" :D

kocakb

10-12-2006, 09:19 AM

Hence my word "obscure" :D
:o

Ecosamurai

10-12-2006, 09:55 AM

Since you can achieve these exercises, could you please explain to me how you physically perform them? Let's take the one with people pushing in front of you. Do you concentrate on "the one point" as Tohei says or is it all just a matter or redirecting the force? If the latter, we are therefore talking about a physical trick aren't we?

Think of it like this. Ever tried to lift someone who was unconcious? Hard isn't it? they seem really heavy. In order to lift someone you need to transfer force into their body, this is acheived by the use of your limbs as levers. If their body is tense, then the force you apply will be more easily transferred into them and as such they will be able to be lifted. If they are relaxed it becomes much harder (but not impossible).

Same thing when being pushed. You redirect the force in this instance (as you correctly mentioned) into your one point, and thus it travels through you into the floor. Pushing the floor over is obviously impossible, hence you do not move when pushed.

The important thing is to remain calm, relaxed and to stand up straight and keep a good posture. If your knees are locked then you are like a car without suspension so make sure they aren't, likewise your elbows. Your heels should be resting just above the floor and your weight should be on the balls of your feet. Imagine all the force being applied to you as going straight through you into your belly. If you're doing this correctly you will feel your feet being pressed into the floor when your partner(s) applies force to you.

The hardest part is not letting your mind drift. Keeping it in your one point is easy until someone touches you but when you feel that your mind tends to drift towards the part of your body they are touching.

Other than that there's not much I can tell you by writing it on the internet, best bet is to go to a ki soc dojo near you and ask the instructor.

Mike

graham

10-12-2006, 10:04 AM

How do you do the unliftable body trick? And please don't say 'just keep One Point.' It doesn't really help.

Hi Raul,

My 9-year old daughter does this and it's great to see the look on people's faces! :)

Here's the stages she goes thru in her mind to prepare herself:

1) Think of one point. (Sorry! It helps her when it comes to keeping weight underside and not thinking about the other persons strength.)

2) Completely relax.

3) (Her arms are straight down, btw, not bent...) Fire flames out of her finger-tips and...

4) As she is lifted she shoots off into space.

She could do this within 10 minutes of her first lesson! It was a while before I realised that not all styles of Aikido do this sort of thing. They are certainly more than gimmicks, as we use unbendable arm (for example) all of the time.

raul rodrigo

10-12-2006, 10:08 AM

Thanks for the inputs, Mike and Graham. Will give it a try.

DonMagee

10-12-2006, 10:17 AM

With the trick with a group of people all trying to push you back, I have been able to do 3 or 4 people before I even knew what ki was. The trick for me was 1) hands on their elbows, and 2) pick the weakest person and put them in front. The people behind the first person only add a marginal amount of force to the initial pusher. After that it was just saying relaxed and leaning slightly forward. My record was 4 guys.

pointy

10-12-2006, 12:49 PM

i can do the pushing trick standing on one foot. it's so easy it's rediculous, anyone could do it.

CitoMaramba

10-12-2006, 12:51 PM

How do you do the unliftable body trick? And please don't say 'just keep One Point.' It doesn't really help. I mean I can do the push trick without needing to refer to the One Point.What do you visualize? How is the lifting energy of the ukes dissipated?

R

Raul, Batobalani Sensei regularly does the unliftable body demo (it's not a trick) at his dojo in Urdaneta. It's only 3 hrs away from Manila

Cito

raul rodrigo

10-12-2006, 07:24 PM

Raul, Batobalani Sensei regularly does the unliftable body demo (it's not a trick) at his dojo in Urdaneta. It's only 3 hrs away from Manila

Cito

HI CITO:

Thanks. Fukakusa Shihan did it for us using two big uke during a seminar in Manila last year. The trouble is, his explanation doesnt really help you understand what he was doing. Does Batobalani explain it?

R

Laurel Seacord

10-12-2006, 09:07 PM

CitoMaramba

10-13-2006, 12:06 AM

HI CITO:

Thanks. Fukakusa Shihan did it for us using two big uke during a seminar in Manila last year. The trouble is, his explanation doesnt really help you understand what he was doing. Does Batobalani explain it?

R

Yes. But words alone are insufficient. It has to be felt. It is kuden.

Cito

CitoMaramba

10-13-2006, 12:20 AM

By the way, Raul, I am not deliberately trying to obfuscate, it really has to be felt to be understood and replicated. For what it's worth, I have noticed that those from a Ki no Kenyukai background or those who experienced Koichi Tohei Sensei's teaching first hand have a better grasp of doing the demo. We had a beginners class at the club here in Plymouth (Ki Society influenced) and they were all doing the unliftable body demo during the first session (myself included). Fukakusa Shihan and Batobalani Sensei were both taught by Tohei Sensei.

raul rodrigo

10-13-2006, 10:41 AM

I understand, Cito, and I know you well enough to know that you're not trying to give me a hard time. you're just telling it like it is. Perhaps the trouble was that I wasnt the uke for Fukakusa when he did the "unliftable" demo, so i couldnt have felt what he was doing. And he didnt do it again when he visited Manila in June 2006, so I didnt get to follow it up. (instead he confused and bewildered us in many other ways). On the other hand, I did do the ukemi for my sensei for the push trick, many times, so now I can do that pretty well.

best,

R

CitoMaramba

10-13-2006, 11:13 AM

Good on you mate, just keep training, it'll come to you. :)
Just remember, the chance to learn by being uke to an expert is only 3 hours away by bus :) :).
Hope I get the chance to train with you again soon, when I visit the PH or if by chance we run into each other abroad.
Please give my best regards to Rey Sensei and to your Sempai, Randy!

Cito

raul rodrigo

10-13-2006, 12:03 PM

As some have mentioned, it is not a "trick". In addition to the mechanics of relaxation, one of my teachers recently explained that your posture/attitude is communicating to the people trying to lift you that it's an impossible task.

Your posture communicates to them that it's impossible? So its a kind of Jedi mind trick? I am not being flippant. Just trying to understand. So in addition to the biomechanical aspect, you are also trying to influences the ukes' minds?

Of course, in the very broadest sense, yes, minds are being influenced in the course of aikido waza. But a technique by Chiba or Arikawa or Isoyama or Morihiro Saito doesnt require influencing uke's mind. You go down no matter what you think.

best,

R

Larry Cuvin

10-13-2006, 01:44 PM

Raul,
Check the PM I wrote to you about the principle of non-dissension and correlate that to what Laurel Seacord said. You will find that in fact, you are influencing your partners mind in the way they react to what you are giving them. If you have a fighting mind, there's already a collision. Leading starts with the proper mind set. That is why I think great aikidokas can whip you around even with your intention of applying full resistance, you find yourself on the mat wondering what just happened.

Plus Ki

graham

10-13-2006, 01:59 PM

Yeah. I've got to agree, Raul. My daughter's done this exercise with 2 adults who didn't know what she was going to do and certainly were under no impressions that she was about to perform some exceptional feat of martial excellence. ;)

CitoMaramba

10-13-2006, 02:48 PM

Raul, you got PM from me too. Mabuhay! :D

raul rodrigo

10-13-2006, 09:00 PM

I've got a lot of inputs from many of you people, and its really all of a piece. Thank you all. Will be working on these things for a while. I would be glad to train with Batobalani sensei some day, Cito; I will get to Urdaneta one of these days.

kokyu

10-14-2006, 10:14 AM

alex padilla

10-14-2006, 09:12 PM

I agree with Kokyu.
I mean with the book of Gaku Sensei, I haven't read the book myself but upon observation of certain movements in Aikido such feats can be decoded.
I believe that to unbalance the master, one must first know what to do. If a civilian will put a master out of balance, he simply can not do it.
IMO, The reason it is practice in Aikido is to develop inherent strengths in all of us and to practice some laws of physics in the guise of the esoteric or the mystical.

Bronson

10-15-2006, 01:13 AM

We practice these "tricks" but we don't try to hide behind mystical explanations. Rod Kobayashi Sensei didn't want these things shrouded in mystery. They are explained to us in terms of relaxation, intent, posture, positioning, balance, angles, extension, centering, effective range, etc. Perhaps all of that together is ki (but that's been discussed countless times in other threads).

We will also show that the point of the activity isn't that you can't be moved, the point is that with proper---all that stuff above---it is more difficult i.e. uke has to use more effort when I've got everything right and I have to use less.

Just my take,

Bronson

Talon

10-16-2006, 01:18 AM

I've performed the lifting up "trick" a couple of times at the Dojo and once with two "non believing" friends. They were all stunned that they could not lift me. The first time I did it I was stunned they could not lift me.

The way I did it was. first I thought I'm incredibly light and when they lifted me it was easy for them to lift me.

The second time around I imagined being rooted into the ground and extremely heavy and relaxed. The two guys could not lift me. Both of my non believing friends are engineers and they were completely stunned when I showed them they could not lift me.

Riight away I got theories why they could not lift me..The most common explanation was that I must have been shifting my weight forward and back and they just could not get balanced. This is probably right and I told them that its a pretty good theory, however thats not the neat thing. The neat thing is that just by thinking that I was heavy, my mind controlled my body in a way that made it heavy to them...

Anyway, these "tricks" work...

Paul

Aran Bright

10-16-2006, 02:53 AM

I think all of these tricks or ki tests or whatever you want to call them are pretty neat. My favourite is when you cut the banana with ki and then peel it and the banana comes out split!

Okay i made that one up but the value in these exercises is learning to work with your body in different ways than just push as hard a possible.

I attended a seminar with one Maruyama sensei who was at one time el presidente of ki soc. He has little to no real strength at age seventy and he seems to have no problem throwing anyone including guys at 120 kg (about 200 pound)

There is one staple technique of relaxation that we use as a beginners way to learn kokyunage. You get someone to stand with the arm extended in front of there body and ask them to position themselves in any way they like to be strong. The object of the exercise is to cut through there arm using as little strength as possible. When sensei did it to me it wasn't like a ten tonne brick hit me, it was just like my arm when limp and collapsed.

Whatever happened I don't know but something did.

kokyu

10-16-2006, 07:22 AM

We will also show that the point of the activity isn't that you can't be moved, the point is that with proper---all that stuff above---it is more difficult i.e. uke has to use more effort when I've got everything right and I have to use less.Bronson

I completely agree. It's not impossible to move nage/tori or that he has done something miraculous. It's just harder to move his center and/or take his balance.

However (and I'm opening myself to getting flamed here)... could it sometimes become a self-fulfilling prophecy? In every class, we have the demonstration before the practice... so both nage/uke already have expectations in their heads.. they expect it to be more difficult (or impossible) when uke relaxes and keeps one point... the friendly senior student comes around and says, "Now relax and think forward/let weight go underside" and then nage expects to find it very difficult/impossible to do it the second time around.

But I think this has been discussed on all sides in other threads, so as the song says - "Let it be" :)

DonMagee

10-16-2006, 08:54 AM

I completely agree. It's not impossible to move nage/tori or that he has done something miraculous. It's just harder to move his center and/or take his balance.

However (and I'm opening myself to getting flamed here)... could it sometimes become a self-fulfilling prophecy? In every class, we have the demonstration before the practice... so both nage/uke already have expectations in their heads.. they expect it to be more difficult (or impossible) when uke relaxes and keeps one point... the friendly senior student comes around and says, "Now relax and think forward/let weight go underside" and then nage expects to find it very difficult/impossible to do it the second time around.

But I think this has been discussed on all sides in other threads, so as the song says - "Let it be" :)

I agree a lot of martial arts runs the risk of group think. Isolation of ones self and art can lead to a problem you just described. It's how the 'martial artists' who claim to do no touch knock outs can do their tricks on their students, but need to make excuses on others (Oh, you must of had your tounge in the wrong place.).

I personally found I had slipped into that trap. In my mind my teachers were some kind of super human masters. Every little thing they did was amazing and I found myself helpless against their power. My aikido teacher had wrists that seemed like tree trunks, my judo instructor had a pull that seemed like it came from the center of the earth. And I was simply helpless. Once I realized it was all in my head I was able to push it aside and focus on training. Now wrists are just wrists, my judo instructor has flaws that can be exploited (althogh rarely) just like any other guy, and I have learned to always be skeptical and test any claim with an open mind.

Sugestion is a powerful tool, but only against those who want to be given suggestions. It does not work on someone who does not want to belive in the suggestion. As long as you are vigilant and skeptical, you can rule out suggestion.

Talon

10-16-2006, 10:27 AM

I wanted to rule out suggestion in the "lift" trick, so I did not tell these people that now they won't be able to lift me. They still couldn't lift me, so in that particular "trick" suggestion was not the main cause. They asked me how did you do this? This was afterwards, and I told them I just imagined myself really heavy and relaxed...

Paul

Kim Rivers

10-16-2006, 10:46 AM

The aikido organisation (Berkshire Hills AikIdo) I train with now used to be part of Kokikai Aikido, headed up by Maruyama Sensei. Anyways, this topic of Ki, ki exercises, and it's effects on uke (and let's not forget nage) is really interesting. Berkshire Hills Aikido puts a lot of emphasis on ki development and we use many of the ki testing execises such as lifting, pushing, unbendable arm, and weight underside to teach students the ideas of relaxing, extending ki, and keeping one's center as ways to experience the feeling of and as a way to conceptualise developing ki.

I have just started teaching aikido at a community college and students already can do unbendable arm and weight underside. Seems to me that relaxing the mind is the most important, then the body will follow. Even w/ the skeptics if I can encourage them to relax and visualise flowing energy or something like that, they find that they can be very strong and immoveable when relaxed. I never tire of ki demonstrations for their simplicity and yet unending refinement as one progresses through training. -Kim

I attended a seminar with one Maruyama sensei who was at one time el presidente of ki soc. He has little to no real strength at age seventy and he seems to have no problem throwing anyone including guys at 120 kg (about 200 pound)

Conrad Gus

10-16-2006, 11:22 AM

You might not believe this.

I'm not sure whether I understand ki as something scientific or something mystical. What I do know is that I have seen Igarashi Sensei do the unliftable body demonstration in an amazing way. The guy is absolutely tiny and nobody can lift him.

Here's the amazing part. While people are trying to lift him, he can lift his feet off the ground and they still cannot lift him.

Explain that one with science.

Conrad

kironin

10-16-2006, 11:36 AM

I can't help but put my 2 cents here...

Some of you have probably read "Aikido for Life" by Homma Gaku Sensei.

On page 5, he says:
"Impressive and mysterious feats will naturally attract students who would like to learn to perform them. I am not condemning this practice out of hand, but I do feel it is misleading to present Aikido as a series of magic tricks."

Here Gaku is setting up a straw man to knock down. Generally it is jokers like this showman Criss Angel that take ki development out of the context of Aikido that present this stuff as magic tricks. Aikido is not even in the picture at that point. My experience in the Ki Society and from stories of my seniors training with Tohei Sensei is the sequence goes like this: first he demonstrates and students get too feel what is going on, then they learn how to do it themselves through instruction and practice. Nothing mysterious or magical. I do the same with students. At a demo, it's a great way to get audience participation without having to know how to fall. No one walks away thinking it's magic but maybe a little better appreciation of what learning to relax can do for them and why techniques they see might be possible. And I have received plenty of training on to make it relevant to my aikido waza.

On page 5, he talks about lifting the Sensei:
"On the second try, they cannot lift him at all! Amazing! But there is a slight difference in the demonstrator's stance; he is controlling the leverage the two men can exert by repositioning them awkwardly. If the men simply relax, squat down, and lift the demonstrator with the power in their legs, he can be easily lifted.... Even the highest ranking masters can be lifted in this way"

Either Gaku never took the time to learn the correct way to do the exercise or I have to assume he is simply lying here to further his agenda. Sure there are plenty of ways to make ki training into a bag of tricks. Shifting stance is certainly one of them, but it like the rest of the tricks is an utter waste of time for someone really trying to get a handle on ki development. The point is to learn how to change your state of mind. It also often gets forgotten that most of what we are talking about is exercises down at the beginner level. High level ki testing has more akin to kokyu dosa, in which tester's ability to follow ki principles is just as critical as that of the testee.
In that context, a greater challenge exists for someone being lifted that has two people who also understand the correct state of mind.
Just the same as in kokyu dosa, if I as a lifter am able to extend and capture your mind, up you go. By the same token, when you do the higher level exercise where you allow them capture and to lift you first and then apply ki principles so that you quickly drop back to the floor because you changed your state of mind, relaxation, etc. and move through them just as connect and move through some one holding you during kokyu dosa.

On page 6, he talks about the something similar to the demonstration in the video (about being pushed backwards):
"Observe very carefully the position of his hands. He places them under the first person's elbows, directing all the force that comes from the first person upward and beyond him, thus making it impossible to push him over. If the first person could push squarely, it wouldn't be hard for just one person to push the demonstrator over"

first off, it is considered incorrect ki exercise to push and definitely not pushing at the elbows. What Criss Angel is doing is purely mechanical (notice his posture under pressure - it's not anything like what it should be) and again Gaku misses the point or chooses to miss the point. Correctly done, you touch very lightly the forearms and it becomes an exercise of learning to have the correct internal state, not about relying on leverage. One person is enough of a challenge. Beyond about three people, as someone else said, it is all show. And of course there is the exercise where you do it without your arms. Ki development is not about entertainment. It's about learning what can't be seen.

that youtube video makes me ill.

Erick Mead

10-16-2006, 12:20 PM

I've seen an aikido shihan, Motohiro Fukakusa, do the unliftable body trick. I have no idea how he does it. What I do know is that I have seen Igarashi Sensei do the unliftable body demonstration in an amazing way. The guy is absolutely tiny and nobody can lift him.

Here's the amazing part. While people are trying to lift him, he can lift his feet off the ground and they still cannot lift him. I believe it. He creates a four-hinged arch problem. The kokyu control of the shoulder girdle is the key.

The only way to to lift him is to form an arch action across the shoulder girdle capable of bearing his weight. If he allows his shoulders to be pinned together so that they rotate together (at the neck, by relaxing both -- or by opposing force in extending both downward), then he can be lifted. A three hinge arch is stable.

If he keeps both shoulders independent of one another, neither extending or relaxing them in the same direction at the same time, he cannot be lifted, because a four hinged arch is a mechanism and cannot bear eccentric vertical loads without mechanical collapse.

Think tenchinage with the shoulders alone.

graham

10-16-2006, 12:52 PM

...Here's the amazing part. While people are trying to lift him, he can lift his feet off the ground and they still cannot lift him.

Conrad,

I can't really see what difference that would make. Maybe it would make it harder for Criss Angel, but the way it is done at our dojo, I can't see that it would be a factor.

Ecosamurai

10-16-2006, 01:32 PM

Here Gaku is setting up a straw man to knock down.

You beat me to it Craig, was going to say much the same thing. Its such a shame that ki soc stuff is so often misrepresented, usually by people simply not knowing anything about it and making up their minds without trying to really understand it.

But thats politics for you I suppose <sigh>...

Its not a bag of tricks, its not unscientific mysticism and its not nonsense either....

Mike

kocakb

10-17-2006, 01:23 AM

Its such a shame that ki soc stuff is so often misrepresented, usually by people simply not knowing anything about it and making up their minds without trying to really understand it.
But thats politics for you I suppose <sigh>...
Its not a bag of tricks, its not unscientific mysticism and its not nonsense either....
Mike
That is exactly what I am thinking, too. We are training aikido, and without ki study, it would be aido :dead:
IMO, training the Ki exercises, improves our techniques. Less power, more effectiveness - and it is then aikido. Unfortunately, we do not focus much on Ki development.

Upyu

10-17-2006, 03:15 AM

Upyu

10-17-2006, 03:30 AM

<snip>
If he keeps both shoulders independent of one another, neither extending or relaxing them in the same direction at the same time, he cannot be lifted, because a four hinged arch is a mechanism and cannot bear eccentric vertical loads without mechanical collapse.

Think tenchinage with the shoulders alone.

If both guys are using "typical" strength, then yea he'd probably be pretty hard to lift. Get anyone with a modiocum of a connected structure and they'd probably be able to destroy his ground connection and then lift him pretty easily.

ian

10-17-2006, 07:28 AM

1. pushing exercise - lifting ukes elbows (illustrates importance of elbows being kept low, and control of elbow essential to techniques)
2. lifting exercise - relaxation of shoulders and arms (teaches that relaxation prevents others controlling your body via the arms i.e. ligaments and natural stretch of body disconnects their control)
3. unbendable arm - stretching so force redirected into ukes shoulder (illustrates that only need strength to hold your own body, their stength can be redirected into their body)
4. throwing someone golding jo held outwards (person is just trying to hold jo still, the nage cuts the jo diagonally to ukes left or right front corner) - illustrates the basic direction for unbalancing someone with an ikkyo type technique.

I would like to see a ki master within the olympic power lifting competitions - it just doesn't happen. I think ki is a model for a combination of technical mechanical, timed and psychological principles brought together. I expect it could be explained with science, but for some it is easier to think of 'ki'. Power lifters are 'ki masters' but they learn from experience. The concept of ki is complex, best just to learn the principles (e.g. as was said before, just feeling rooted and relaxing and heavy) and let it happen for itself. Ki demonstrations are also unconvincing on compliant people - they should be demonstrated on people from the audience.

The psychological aspect of aikido I think is an enormously overlooked part. An interesting trick is to train gently with someone, and then grab them really hard, but with no tension in your shoulders. Many uke suddenly tense up as a reaction to your tight grab and find the technique much harder, even though it should be easier. I think much of the relaxation is about not giving feedback to uke about where the force is coming from and what you are doing. You just have to look at the relaxation in top ground-fighters; is that ki?

raul rodrigo

10-17-2006, 07:45 AM

1. pushing exercise - lifting ukes elbows (illustrates importance of elbows being kept low, and control of elbow essential to techniques)

Actually the instruction I was given in the pushing exercise is to touch uke's elbows but not push or lift them up, just to lightly connect with the incoming force and let it flow down through one's body to the ground.

R

kironin

10-17-2006, 09:35 AM

Actually the instruction I was given in the pushing exercise is to touch uke's elbows but not push or lift them up, just to lightly connect with the incoming force and let it flow down through one's body to the ground.
R

correct, but try touching lightly on the forearms closer to the wrists.
It will be more of a challenge for you. Any unconscious tendency to
push back at all will quickly cause you to fail. So it can be more instructive on getting the correct feel of your body or mental state.

kokyu

10-17-2006, 10:40 AM

Sugestion is a powerful tool, but only against those who want to be given suggestions. It does not work on someone who does not want to belive in the suggestion. As long as you are vigilant and skeptical, you can rule out suggestion.

Beautifully said...

Actually, the Yoshinkan also has an interesting demonstration, as described in Angry White Pyjamas (p 223) "... I saw Chida do ogi, secret techniques, for the first time in a demonstration. He ordered two assistants to hoist him into the air, each assistant firmly holding one arm so that Chida was apparently helpless, two or three feet off the ground. It was like watching Houdini escape. For a moment, nothing happened and then Chida jumped to the ground while at the same time the two assistants flipped up into the air. Chida's secret power was to send his centre of gravity down to his feet without moving. At the same time he changed, minutely, his arm position, which broke the assistants' double-handed grip."

kironin

10-17-2006, 10:42 AM

Do a search on this board.
Already been covered.
Yes it exists, and if you want to see similar tricks do a search for "Akuzawa", "We Pei Sheng", "Shioda Gozo" etc in Youtube to see various Chinese/ Japanese guys in different arts pulling the same kind of stunts. ;)

did the search on youtube and there is nothing in the videos from the first two remotely like what we are discussing here.

Akuzawa search leads to videos that lead to some interesting e-budo discussion here though sort of off the topic of this thread, some familiar names pop up from years past
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-31125.html

kironin

10-17-2006, 10:54 AM

I personally found I had slipped into that trap. In my mind my teachers were some kind of super human masters. Every little thing they did was amazing and I found myself helpless against their power. My aikido teacher had wrists that seemed like tree trunks, my judo instructor had a pull that seemed like it came from the center of the earth. And I was simply helpless. Once I realized it was all in my head I was able to push it aside and focus on training. Now wrists are just wrists, my judo instructor has flaws that can be exploited (althogh rarely) just like any other guy, and I have learned to always be skeptical and test any claim with an open mind.

I think is for many an almost an inevitable stage in progress, early on you simply haven't got the skill or body sense to be sensitive enough to what's going on.

A good teacher recognizes this and helps guide you so that you gain the ability to see what's up and become more of a challenge to him and therefore forces him to continue to revise and improve.

A bad teacher exploits this process and guides you down the path towards cultish self-delusion.

Erick Mead

10-17-2006, 11:25 AM

I think is for many an almost an inevitable stage in progress, early on you simply haven't got the skill or body sense to be sensitive enough to what's going on. ... A bad teacher exploits this process and guides you down the path towards cultish self-delusion. Clarke's Law applies in martial art -- as in every other form of applied knowledge.

Tim Fong

10-17-2006, 01:42 PM

Craig,
The Akuzawa videos (and Wang Pei Sheng etc) are not "off topic." They are on topic because they show how to use the body in a method related to what Tohei was probably teaching.

The "immovable to a push" stuff especially relates to this thread. You don't have to take my word for it, you can try it yourself (as in, do the drills and exercises) and see.

Michael Douglas

10-17-2006, 04:26 PM

...
Here's the amazing part. While people are trying to lift him, he can lift his feet off the ground and they still cannot lift him.

Erm, feet off ground = lifted.

Mike Sigman

10-17-2006, 06:51 PM

[[snip]] Generally it is jokers like this showman Criss Angel that take ki development out of the context of Aikido that present this stuff as magic tricks. [[snip]] first off, it is considered incorrect ki exercise to push and definitely not pushing at the elbows. What Criss Angel is doing is purely mechanical (notice his posture under pressure - it's not anything like what it should be) and again Gaku misses the point or chooses to miss the point. Correctly done, you touch very lightly the forearms and it becomes an exercise of learning to have the correct internal state, not about relying on leverage. One person is enough of a challenge. Beyond about three people, as someone else said, it is all show. And of course there is the exercise where you do it without your arms. Ki development is not about entertainment. It's about learning what can't be seen.

that youtube video makes me ill.Hi Craig:

I agree with some of what you say, but I have a somewhat different perspective. Although Criss Angel was using his arms to push upward on the incoming force, the physics was technically not much different from real "ki", if you do an analysis. Criss has no "ki" skills (which admittedly encompass a number of western skills, not just one, as we would look at it in a western science perspective), but his physics usage would come close to the same vector analysis for a similar demonstration using "ki".... it would have to, if you really think about it. Instead of pushing up with the arms, someone with "ki" skills (or "jin" in the Chinese) would essentially come under the incoming force with a counter force, thus ensuring that the pusher is adding to the force which defeats his push against the demonstrator. Whether someone with "ki" can mentally form those upward paths through his body or whether a demonstrator like Angel can simply push upward with his arms doesn't matter a lot in the big-picture analysis. If you look at many videos of similar resistances by Ueshiba, Tohei, and others, you can see that the skill they are demonstrating is mainly a mental-physical ability to manipulate force vectors.

The caution I would mention is that there's more to "ki" than just these simple examples of one area of skills. And BTW, I'd congratulate Raul for his preceptions of what was going on. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

gdandscompserv

10-18-2006, 11:26 AM

Criss has no "ki" skills
How do you know this?

Mike Sigman

10-18-2006, 11:40 AM

How do you know this?I can see it. Can't you? If he had any ki skills he wouldn't have to do what he does. Surely as a "teacher", you can see this?

Mike Sigman

eyrie

10-18-2006, 12:52 PM

Criss is a magician. He has no ki skills. Anyone with a modicum of observation skills can see this plainly. Watch how he limits the push of the first person by pushing up on the elbows. All he has to do is control the first person and while the first person is trying to maintain his balance, the rest of the line is merely supporting the person in front of them.

With the unliftable body trick, note how he's changed the angle of his elbows so that the 2 guys are lifting in a different direction other than up.

Exploiting the physics and mechanics for sure... ki definitely not. Not even close.

Gwion

10-18-2006, 01:35 PM

Erick Mead

10-18-2006, 04:19 PM

Criss is a magician. He has no ki skills. ...
Exploiting the physics and mechanics for sure... ki definitely not. Not even close. A distinction without a difference.

Apparently, knowledge of Clarke's Law has suffered:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Or, if you prefer the Old Man:
In these teachings listen most
To the rhythm of the strike and thrust
To train in the basics (omote)
Is to practice the very secrets of the art.

crbateman

10-18-2006, 05:28 PM

Apparently, knowledge of Clarke's Law has suffered:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

And so much for Clarke... Now then, here's "Clark's Law":

No matter what happens, there's always somebody who KNEW it would, but still can't explain HOW it did.

gdandscompserv

10-18-2006, 06:26 PM

I can see it. Can't you? If he had any ki skills he wouldn't have to do what he does. Surely as a "teacher", you can see this?

Mike Sigman
I don't place much faith in "seeing" skills. The eyes are very easily fooled, as any good magician knows.
I believe EVERYBODY has "ki skills."
Some are just better developed than others.

clwk

10-18-2006, 06:52 PM

I don't place much faith in "seeing" skills. The eyes are very easily fooled, as any good magician knows.
I believe EVERYBODY has "ki skills."
Some are just better developed than others.Touché: sort of like how EVERYBODY speaks French, just some better than others.

-ck

kironin

10-18-2006, 11:35 PM

speaking of French ....

just came across this in a post on e-budo, :disgust:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPpwcPqpgp8

kocakb

10-19-2006, 12:41 AM

speaking of French ....

just came across this in a post on e-budo, :disgust:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPpwcPqpgp8

Darth Vader did it too :cool:

DonMagee

10-19-2006, 07:11 AM

speaking of French ....

just came across this in a post on e-budo, :disgust:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPpwcPqpgp8

Just once I want to be the guy holding the sword.

That and I want a waver that says I'm not responsible for my actions.

Erick Mead

10-19-2006, 10:22 AM

speaking of French ....

just came across this in a post on e-budo, :disgust:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPpwcPqpgp8Et les exemples d'escrime, ca, c'est du merde gauloise, alors, pour les Belges impressionables. :blush:

And another set of four-hinge arch manipulations at the beginning, by the way :D

ian

10-19-2006, 10:33 AM

Gwion

10-19-2006, 11:29 AM

What the heck is 'ki skills' - the way we interpret ki in aikido seems all wrong. I think people need a better understanding in the chinese arts and philosophy before using such words.

When it comes down to it, the best way to encourage ki flow is relaxation, good diet, exercise and sleep. Basically - stay healthy and practise hard. I hate this mysticism rubbish, it takes away from the real practice, and from any real understanding of ki/chi (P.S. 'jin' is the physical manifestation of ki (i.e. power)in chinese, 'chi' is the chinese equivalent of ki). Taoist practise is derived from naturalness and simplicity. Everything is just as it seems!

P.S. that French video is hilarious! If only the samurai had worked harder instead of slacking they could have developed such skills!

actually, as someone mentioned before, Ki Society has people doing these 'tricks' from day one, and the idea of ki is explained so simply that a 2nd grader could quite easily comprehend it. In fact, ki is what we are all born with, it's the cutting OFF of ki with tension and adult mind/body discoordination that causes problems. Ever have a baby grab your finger and squeeze? those guys have KI. Also, babies can cry much louder and much longer than most of us can do a kiai. That's what it is about for me, getting back to that state of connection with all life.

kokyu

10-21-2006, 07:23 AM

Also, all you 'mainstream aikikai' guys should note that Osensei did 'ki tricks' like this all the time. Including one where he sat on the ground and had a ton of people push his forehead to try to topple him, and one where he held a jo with 9 guys pushing on it and unable to budge him.

in other words, it ain't just tohei. And it begs the question, why don't the current aikikai dudes do these things if Osensei did them?

where's the ??

There might be some misunderstanding about the Aikikai - it's actually an umbrella organization with different styles... IMHO, the 'style' is not distinctive as the Yoshinkan or Ki Society... For example, students of Yamaguchi Sensei stress certain techniques/exercises which one may not see in students of Abe Sensei.

As for ki exercises within the Aikikai... I'm not sure... what I do know is that some Ki Society groups joined the Aikikai... but they could have retained some of the ki exercises in their daily training (even though they are now Aikikai). I was privileged to train in one of those 'previous Ki Society' dojos and I distinctly remember doing the 'sayu undo' warm-up exercise... something which one doesn't see in a dojo that has been Aikikai from the beginning... so it might not be too hard to imagine that some of these dojos could be practicing the Ki exercises as well... but someone else has to confirm...

I think all the mainstream Aikido organizations have something to offer. I own books written for Aikikai students, Ki Society members, Yoshinkan students and even Tomiki practitioners. Of course, one has to make a choice, but it doesn't mean we shut our minds off to what the other groups have to teach :)

Joe Jutsu

10-21-2006, 02:24 PM

Gwion

10-21-2006, 06:16 PM

I bet another big reason you don't see many ki development exercises within the aikikai umbrella is the fact that Tohei sensei didn't learn the exercises from O Sensei, he learned them from Nakamura Tempu sensei. Just a thought....

which ones are those?

are you talking about:

udemawashi
zenshin koshin
ikkyo hitori waza
sayu undo
sayu undo choyaku
funakogi waza
mae ukemi
ushiro ukemi
ushiro tekubitori zenpo nage

ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, or yonkyo?

Those are most of the exercises we use as 'ki exercises'. Which ones are foreign to Aikido?

danj

10-22-2006, 07:51 PM

Hi All,
Some years back I did the unraisable body using 3-D force plates to measure the ground reaction forces of the people doing the lifting. This was compared to a 'dead lift' and the unraisable body lift. Vertical lifting force was translated into horizontal motion for the unraisable body lift correlating very well with basic principles of physics.
Of course easier to teach 'extend ki' than 1st year university physics if you want to help people do these kinds of things.

i'll try and dig up the article if there is intrest

best wishes,
danny

raul rodrigo

10-22-2006, 08:20 PM

danj

10-22-2006, 08:59 PM

Hi Raul,
Amazing what one can do on a slow monday at work. Here is the article, hope the explanation is helpful
http://www.griffithaikido.com/aikidophysicskipower.html

cheers,
dan

raul rodrigo

10-22-2006, 09:51 PM

Thanks a lot. Its very helpful.

Ecosamurai

10-23-2006, 09:14 AM

Hi Raul,
Amazing what one can do on a slow monday at work. Here is the article, hope the explanation is helpful
http://www.griffithaikido.com/aikidophysicskipower.html

cheers,
dan

Hi Dan, mind if I post that link on the Yuishinkai UK boards? We've got a thread going on there about physics, physiology and ki.

Cheers

Mike

Joe Jutsu

10-23-2006, 12:57 PM

which ones are those?

are you talking about:

udemawashi
zenshin koshin
ikkyo hitori waza
sayu undo
sayu undo choyaku
funakogi waza
mae ukemi
ushiro ukemi
ushiro tekubitori zenpo nage

ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, or yonkyo?

Those are most of the exercises we use as 'ki exercises'. Which ones are foreign to Aikido?

These are all hitori waza, exercises taken more or less from aikido techniques. These are not what I'm referring to. I'm referring more to the exercises that are tested during a "ki test." Unbendable arm, standing with mind and body coordinated, unliftable body, sitting and standing, etc. These and other such ki tests and related exercises are borrowed from Nakamura sensei and his system of Japanese yoga. Ki society also did a set of exercises referred to specifically as "ki development exercises," but these have pretty much been integrated into Oneness Rhythm Taiso, as far as I know. In my five plus years of Ki Aikido practice, I think I've done the Ki Development Exercises once, as sort of a history lesson of sorts. :) My sensei required me to read a book on the Tempukai not too long ago, mainly because I could trace the martial lineage of Shin shin toitsu aikido pretty well, but couldn't tell you much about Nakamura sensei. I believe the book is called Japanese Yoga, I can't remember the author off hand, but the style of yoga taught is referred to as shin shin toitsu do (look familiar?), and while reading it, I kept thinking "ah yes, I know that, or we do that..." Compare that book to Ki in Daily Life, you'll find more congruencies than discrepencies, but there are no pictures of Shinichi sensei in the yoga book. :)

Hope this helps.

:ki:

Erick Mead

10-23-2006, 01:17 PM

Hi Raul,
Amazing what one can do on a slow monday at work. Here is the article, hope the explanation is helpful
http://www.griffithaikido.com/aikidophysicskipower.html

cheers,
dan Thanks, Dan for some wonderful articles. I looked at couple of the others on your dojo site. Did you do the unbendable arm stress diagram on a FEM engine, boundary element mesh or what? I can't do it, but I appreciate it the effort it requires, nonetheless.

On both that and the unraisable body article, I would suggest this thought also for consideration, if you continue with this line of analysis:
http://www.raeng.org.uk/news/publications/ingenia/issue10/Heyman.pdf

On page 3 of 5 Heyman summarizes the function of the four-hinge mechanism of collapse, as well as describing Hooke's classical inverted catenary stability profile of all arches in compression.

I have his book "The Stone Skeleton" that goes over this analysis .
An excerpt is here: http://www.amazon.ca/gp/reader/0521629632/ref=sib_dp_pt/701-7014119-2231548#reader-page
(where the hinge mechanism of collapse is also briefly described at pp. 15-17 of the excerpted portion.

Basically, the lifters have to form an arch over the shoulders with the body weight suspended from the center by the spine. Any arch creates thrust (hence your results on the horizontal components of ground reactions). Anything that causes this arch to collapse makes the body weight unliftable. Four hinges in an arch will collapse it.

Assuming they lift from the forearms, there are potential hinges at both grasping points, both elbows, both shoulders, and the neck, or seven potential points of articulation to form a hinge. If you count the interface of their feet with the ground, it is nine. If you can get the lifter's joints to articulate in compression, too, then it's 12 or more. It is pretty much like pushing a rope at that point.

The ability to shift the weight, even very slightly, dramatically alters the eccentricity of the thrust loads, and thus can, in addition, damp almost any applied moment at the supports they might otherwise be able to create.

danj

10-23-2006, 07:05 PM

Thanks, Dan for some wonderful articles. I looked at couple of the others on your dojo site. Did you do the unbendable arm stress diagram on a FEM engine, boundary element mesh or what? I can't do it, but I appreciate it the effort it requires, nonetheless. ......

Basically, the lifters have to form an arch over the shoulders with the body weight suspended from the center by the spine. Any arch creates thrust (hence your results on the horizontal components of ground reactions). Anything that causes this arch to collapse makes the body weight unliftable. Four hinges in an arch will collapse it.

Assuming they lift from the forearms, there are potential hinges at both grasping points, both elbows, both shoulders, and the neck, or seven potential points of articulation to form a hinge. If you count the interface of their feet with the ground, it is nine. If you can get the lifter's joints to articulate in compression, too, then it's 12 or more. It is pretty much like pushing a rope at that point.

The ability to shift the weight, even very slightly, dramatically alters the eccentricity of the thrust loads, and thus can, in addition, damp almost any applied moment at the supports they might otherwise be able to create.

Hi Eric,
It was an FEM analysis done using coventor..its not so rigouous but demonstrates the point i think.

The construction anaylsis looks interesting....

paulb

10-25-2006, 01:42 PM

Is there any difference between what Chris Angel does and what Tohei does?

kironin

10-26-2006, 01:56 AM

Is there any difference between what Chris Angel does and what Tohei does?

yes, go back and read the first pages of this thread.

kironin

10-26-2006, 02:43 AM

These are not what I'm referring to. I'm referring more to the exercises that are tested during a "ki test." Unbendable arm, standing with mind and body coordinated, unliftable body, sitting and standing, etc. These and other such ki tests and related exercises are borrowed from Nakamura sensei and his system of Japanese yoga. Ki society also did a set of exercises referred to specifically as "ki development exercises," but these have pretty much been integrated into Oneness Rhythm Taiso, as far as I know. In my five plus years of Ki Aikido practice, I think I've done the Ki Development Exercises once, as sort of a history lesson of sorts. :) My sensei required me to read a book on the Tempukai not too long ago, mainly because I could trace the martial lineage of Shin shin toitsu aikido pretty well, but couldn't tell you much about Nakamura sensei. I believe the book is called Japanese Yoga, I can't remember the author off hand, but the style of yoga taught is referred to as shin shin toitsu do (look familiar?), and while reading it, I kept thinking "ah yes, I know that, or we do that..." Compare that book to Ki in Daily Life, you'll find more congruencies than discrepencies,

If you are referring to this book
http://www.stonebridge.com/JAPANYOGA/japaneseyoga.html

it's a very good well written book.

I really think it's appropriate to look on Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido has having two pillars : Morihei Ueshiba (Aikido) and Tempu Nakamura (Shin Shin Toitsu Do). Tempu Nakamura certainly lived an interesting life worthy of several movies (BIO (http://www.senninfoundation.com/tempu.html)) and personally his behavior during the war period was quite a bit more in line with the idea of the Art of Peace many people in Aikido past or present have tended to sanctify Morihei Ueshiba with.

Koichi Tohei was a disciple and very highly talented student of both men. One of Tohei's earliest aikido books from around 1960 has a foreward by Tempu Nakamura if I remember correctly.

Not unlike the way Stanely Pranin describes the history of Aikido itself having two pillars in Sokaku Takeda (Daito Ryu) and Onisaburo DeGuchi (Omoto Kyo).

---------

as for the Ki Development Exercises or
Toitsu Taiso (http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Dojo/1804/soa1/soa1-5.html#toitsutaiso)

That was done separately from the Oneness Rhythm Exercise (ORE) and existed before the ORE.

When I started, the ORE was just being introduced. In fact demonstrating the Toitsu Taiso was part of my gokyu exam.
The ORE gradually became more important but there's nothing wrong with the Toitsu Taiso. I don't think it's a matter of one being integrated in to the other. I think they have rather different purposes. Toitsu Taiso to me is more about ki training and warmup than aikido. ORE is really a core training tool for aikido in which Tohei Sensei is trying to instill in you the correct rhythm for performing waza.

paulb

10-26-2006, 05:30 AM

yes, go back and read the first pages of this thread. I read them but am still unclear as to the differences. Seems like there is an element of showmanship in both types of demo.

kironin

10-26-2006, 05:46 AM

I read them but am still unclear as to the differences. Seems like there is an element of showmanship in both types of demo.

well, by your second sentence I gather your missing the point,
but
one is about putting on show of deception and
the other is about teaching an exercise rather doing a demo.

the differences I thought you were talking about were already discussed in previous posts.

paulb

10-26-2006, 06:07 AM

I think both what Chris does and Tohei does involves a large deal of basic physics and showmanship.

kironin

10-26-2006, 12:17 PM

well your welcome to think what you want to of course.

paulb

10-26-2006, 05:25 PM

This is a compliment to Tohei. Chris Angel is a very talented man.

danj

10-26-2006, 06:37 PM

I think both what Chris does and Tohei does involves a large deal of basic physics and showmanship.

I think there is a certain element of this in aikido . Many people are attracted to the art for the 'oriental fantasy' of donning strange period costumes and pursue secret mystical knowledge revealed in amazing feats of Ki (at least in the beginning).

Someone without these clothes, gets into spandex, a glittery cape etc...and calls it 'magic ' instead ....and we get upset.

Then there are those into the 'playing army' fantasy that don camoflage pants and do arts like 'Systema'

And finally scientists vainly pretend to have ultimate knowledge, hanging onto their pet theories ...all the while still struggling to understand what it all means on the mat :)

paulb

10-26-2006, 07:04 PM

There is nothing wrong with the Oriental fantasy as the Orient is a fantastic place. I have never been drawn to mysical Ki but that may be because I spend alot of time in the far east so dont need to. Spandex is nice. Some Systema peeps may be Spetz wannabes, but they are more Angel Gabriel than Chris Angel-and a nice bunch of guys. As for scientists, give the guys a break, you have a lot to thank them for.

danj

10-26-2006, 10:39 PM

Osu!

kironin

10-27-2006, 02:27 AM

As for scientists, give the guys a break, you have a lot to thank them for.

Thanks.

and I don't think of Ki as mystical which is why I find things like Criss Angel's statements irritating and comparing him to Tohei not flattering. Tempu Nakamura's ideas of bringing western empiricism into ki training is part of the attraction I like about it as a scientist.

paulb

10-27-2006, 06:29 AM

I have never partiacularly liked these demos whether performed by Criss or by Tohei.

tedehara

10-27-2006, 08:16 AM

If you are referring to this book
http://www.stonebridge.com/JAPANYOGA/japaneseyoga.html

it's a very good well written book.

I really think it's appropriate to look on Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido has having two pillars : Morihei Ueshiba (Aikido) and Tempu Nakamura (Shin Shin Toitsu Do). Tempu Nakamura certainly lived an interesting life worthy of several movies (BIO (http://www.senninfoundation.com/tempu.html)) and personally his behavior during the war period was quite a bit more in line with the idea of the Art of Peace many people in Aikido past or present have tended to sanctify Morihei Ueshiba with.

Koichi Tohei was a disciple and very highly talented student of both men. One of Tohei's earliest aikido books from around 1960 has a foreward by Tempu Nakamura if I remember correctly.

Not unlike the way Stanely Pranin describes the history of Aikido itself having two pillars in Sokaku Takeda (Daito Ryu) and Onisaburo DeGuchi (Omoto Kyo).

---------
...In fact, K. Tohei wrote a book on Ueshiba and Nakamura, but it is only in print in Japanese.

However he wrote in The Way to Union with Ki that he had three teachers. The first one was Tetsuju Ogura of Ichikukai Dojo. Ogura Sensei was a top student of master swordsman Tesshu Yamaoka. He taught a strenuous form of misogi.

The dojo itself still exists. You can read about it here. (http://members2.jcom.home.ne.jp/ichikukai/eindex.html)

Ecosamurai

10-27-2006, 08:46 AM

I have never partiacularly liked these demos whether performed by Criss or by Tohei.

Perhaps you preferred them when they were performed by O Sensei?

Mike

Ron Tisdale

10-27-2006, 09:01 AM

Perhaps you preferred them when they were performed by O Sensei?

Mike

Nah, not so much. There is a clip out there I wish could be banned, and guess who is featured in it?

This does not affect the fact that I think Ueshiba Sensei did us all a great service in leaving us this art.

Best,
Ron

paulb

10-27-2006, 09:06 AM

Perhaps you preferred them when they were performed by O Sensei?
Perhaps. As far as I know these demos are not taken so seriously in Japan (by the general population who sees them often). They are a form of entertainment. Tohei and O Sensei are/were quite charasmatic showmen. I do believe in Ki/Qi development but am not sure how relevent these demos are in terms of martial prowess.

kironin

10-27-2006, 01:06 PM

I do believe in Ki/Qi development but am not sure how relevent these demos are in terms of martial prowess.

That's a good point !

Which is why as a rule, I won't demonstrate this sort of stuff in a demonstration unless the context allows me to communicate to the audience what I am doing and I can get them to all stand up and participate and learn something.

but kind of think of it, does a choreographed routine of techniques often seen in martial arts demos really any more relevant in terms of martial prowess ?

kironin

10-27-2006, 01:16 PM

However he wrote in The Way to Union with Ki that he had three teachers. The first one was Tetsuju Ogura of Ichikukai Dojo. Ogura Sensei was a top student of master swordsman Tesshu Yamaoka. He taught a strenuous form of misogi.

yes, true, but in terms of what is most stressed in training is I think it's clear the two most important are Morihei Ueshiba and Tempu Nakamure, no doubt about it.

bell misogi, etc. and most of what comes from the Ichikukai is generally described as voluntary and not seen as necessary training in Ki Society though the training is seen as beneficial to those wishing to do it.

Most students in Ki Society probably do bell misogi at most 1-2 times a year if they do it at all. A very small number may do it monthly in some places.

Joe Jutsu

10-27-2006, 04:42 PM

Larry Cuvin

10-27-2006, 05:20 PM

At our dojo, we welcome the New Year with bell misogi. Weeks prior to the event, we do a review and training so that folks wanting to attend specially the ones going for the first time, knows what to do and expect.

Plus Ki

kironin

10-28-2006, 02:24 AM

by the way, I love bell misogi.

nothing like the experience of a large group falling of people falling into sync and holding nothing back. It's as if the stone walls become a vibrating drum.

also nothing like starting the day of an aikido intensive in Seattle with water misgoi in a lake in February followed by ki breathing and ki meditation till steam is rising off of you. All before breakfast.
:D finish the day of aikido with bell misogi and sleep like a baby.

crbateman

10-28-2006, 07:53 AM

also nothing like starting the day of an aikido intensive in Seattle with water misgoi in a lake in February followed by ki breathing and ki meditation till steam is rising off of you. All before breakfast.
:D finish the day of aikido with bell misogi and sleep like a baby.You maybe... Me, I'd pass out like a drunk... :D

Now all you gotta do is bring back the ol' pounding on the back with lumber while doing bell misogi! :hypno:

tedehara

10-28-2006, 06:56 PM

yes, true, but in terms of what is most stressed in training is I think it's clear the two most important are Morihei Ueshiba and Tempu Nakamure, no doubt about it.

bell misogi, etc. and most of what comes from the Ichikukai is generally described as voluntary and not seen as necessary training in Ki Society though the training is seen as beneficial to those wishing to do it.

Most students in Ki Society probably do bell misogi at most 1-2 times a year if they do it at all. A very small number may do it monthly in some places.I have to disagree here.

When Koichi Tohei did those all-night misogi sessions at Ichikukai dojo, then showed up to practice with Ueshiba, he was dead tired. Because he was so tired, he had to relax completely in order to practice. According to what he has written when he did that, he found that he could throw everyone easily. The only person in the dojo who could throw him was the founder. That was when he realized that the founder was "relaxed" all the time. It is this practice of "relax completely" that remains the core of all Ki Society training.

K. Tohei was able to gain this insight through misogi. Tesshu Yamaoka taught his students by beating the life out of them. He gave them continuous kenjutsu matches that lasted for days. Finally when the student became a zombie after endless beatings, Tesshu Sensei was able to see the student had learned the lesson of relax completely. The student would hold the shinai gently, since he had no energy to hold it tightly. He would move with mind and body coordination, since it is the most efficient way to move. This was traditional life and death training.

While misogi in the Ki Society is fun, I think you can still learn this lesson by its practice. You don't have to be beaten to death to learn it.

When K. Tohei joined Ueshiba's dojo, he was already a judo black belt. Normally, one could assume he would mention one of his judo teachers as significant. The fact that he mentions Ogura Sensei as the first of his three teachers shows the importance he placed on the practice of "relax completely".

Mato-san

11-03-2006, 08:07 AM

I would like to add my little words here.

My Sensei was a student of Toheisama for over a decade, and from what I gather with Ki like all things spiritual, you don`t harness it or stumble upon it, you don`t cheapen it with words....and how you view it is up to you.
It is not stressed in our dojo, but it exists and is often pointed out but not stressed.
I think Craig says it best early in the thread when he says "Sensei does not have more Ki than you, he just knows how to use it".

Mike Sigman

11-03-2006, 08:15 AM

I think Craig says it best early in the thread when he says "Sensei does not have more Ki than you, he just knows how to use it".Well, that's not strictly true. You can build up and increase your ki through proper exercises, etc. If you had your full quota and couldn't increase it, there would be no point in doing qigongs, misogi, etc., etc.

I remember the words (more or less) in Ellis' story relating the Chiba and Wang Xu Jin encounter. Wang told the young Chiba, "You have some ki... come back when you have more".

With practice your ki and the ability to use it increases. That should be obvious to anyone who knows what ki is and knows how to develop it.

Best.

Mike Sigman

Mato-san

11-03-2006, 08:22 AM

Ron Tisdale

11-03-2006, 08:25 AM

Is your opinion that ki is something you build, or something you always had and learn to nurture?

I'm not Mike, but I would say both.

Everyone has an opinion, I want yours without statisics, and martial trivia.

I think he just gave it to you.

Best,
Ron

Mato-san

11-03-2006, 08:29 AM

Mato-san

11-03-2006, 08:31 AM

yes ron he did

Ron Tisdale

11-03-2006, 08:37 AM

Well, what he said was;

Well, that's not strictly true.

In other words, there may be some truth to what you said, but there is another way of looking at it that may give you some benefits, because your statement did not encompass all of the truth.

As for not being harmonious, force feeding others, etc...your own statements seem to me to fit that definition more than Mike's...but that is just my opinion, and there is no particular reason you should take it too seriously. Think of it this way...someone went out of their way to give some advice...what do you care about the format? If there is value in it, take it...leave the value judgements for someone else. That way, how can you lose?

Best,
Ron

Mike Sigman

11-03-2006, 08:38 AM

Would you say that you build up ki, or that you begin to understand ki and were it is within yourself?
Is your opinion that ki is something you build, or something you always had and learn to nurture?
Everyone has an opinion, I want yours without statisics, and martial trivia.Well, let me take out the "forces" part of ki, the "jin/kokyu" things for a second, in order to make things clearer. [It's a justifiable thing to excerpt because you can build up Ki and not have any 'forces' skills, as was demonstrated when Tohei pushed over those monks to prove god-knows-what] If you take that part out, you're left with an ability within the fascia and autonomic muscle functions that is somewhat related to the way a horse can quiver it's flanks, etc. (there's more to it than that, but I'm simply hurrying to make a point so I'm oversimplifying). The Chinese view is that a pronounced ki development is something man used to have, but he evolved away from it, so you have to deliberately develop this vestigial ability that we all have.

So the vestigial ability is there in all people; stronger in some than in others ("hereditary qi"). Once you understand that, it should be obvious that if you know how to acquire this latent ability, you can revive it and even strengthen it. It's sort of like a system of the body that helps a lot, even in its vestigial state, when we're younger, but which atrophies with age and lack of use as we get older.

Since the Asians tossed in several separate-but-related body concepts under the umbrella-term of "ki/qi", the topic is more complex than is implied in my example, but generally what I said is true.

Weirdly, at least for me with my engineering background, a lot of folk-tale things like "auras", raising the testicles before combat, standing on one leg against a push, etc., etc., all turn out to be aspects of "ki", all under one roof. I've had enough of my previous pooh-pooh's come back to haunt me that I'm now willing to listen to any wild-goose tale and consider the possibility that at some time it may have been related to some practical function which is not apparent in the superficial story.

FWIW

Mike

Mato-san

11-03-2006, 08:42 AM

Being with Kanosama today and expressing my love to the god of mercy in a ritual that takes place once every 33 years.....I am feeling a little mercy here. Maybe I will see you again when I am on your level.
Peace

Mato-san

11-03-2006, 08:45 AM

I have got to say...that was a heart felt post Mike.

Mato-san

11-03-2006, 08:46 AM

Nothing sarcastic, it was felt.

Mato-san

11-03-2006, 08:49 AM

Yes again Ron....nice work....I appreciate the harmony

Mato-san

11-03-2006, 08:50 AM

Kinda feel like you are giving me an irimi nage...but I appreciate it

Mike Sigman

11-03-2006, 08:50 AM

When you say something is not true...are you respecting others opinions....are you force feeding your own opinion...... are we trying to establish something here?
Are you correct? Am I wrong?
Where is the harmony????? Do we "respect others' opinions" by listening and saying nothing but good? I.e., are we taking turns around the campfire, each telling his own ghost story for the approval of others, or are we having an intelligent discussion?

Craig proffered an opinion. I offered an opinion about that opinion. And since I'm always careful that I don't get caught out on a theoretical limb, I try to never say anything that I can't demonstrate on the spot, if need be. It's good to have these discussions.

"Harmony"? I was hoping by now that more people would understand that the term "harmony", which Ueshiba used in the cosmological sense, has to do with the order of the universe and how we should do things that don't conflict with that order... that way we are "in harmony with the universe". O-Sensei was not selling a behavioural prescript that we should "be in harmony and not have arguments". Ever read any about his character, blow-ups, etc.?

Have fun. Engage. Elicit information. Let's enjoy each other's validly made and polite points. :)

Best.

Mike

Mato-san

11-03-2006, 08:54 AM

Amen

Ron Tisdale

11-03-2006, 08:57 AM

And if I caused any offense, please forgive.

Best,
Ron

Mato-san

11-03-2006, 09:00 AM

I can take ukemi

Mato-san

11-03-2006, 09:06 AM

Gotta say mike you have a way with words

Mike Sigman

11-03-2006, 09:06 AM

Maybe that's why when I went to take ukemi I found there was none left, so I didn't get any. :(

Mike Sigman

11-03-2006, 10:58 AM

When Koichi Tohei did those all-night misogi sessions at Ichikukai dojo, then showed up to practice with Ueshiba, he was dead tired. Because he was so tired, he had to relax completely in order to practice. According to what he has written when he did that, he found that he could throw everyone easily. The only person in the dojo who could throw him was the founder. That was when he realized that the founder was "relaxed" all the time. It is this practice of "relax completely" that remains the core of all Ki Society training.I wanted to throw my opinion in here, Ted, if you don't mind.

"Relax" is a strange word. One of the best quotes (that I agree with) for internal strength says that "Relax is like a snake; not like a bunny". The symbol of qi/ki in Asia is a snake, BTW, and it's an apt description of what someone with real ki/qi skills can feel like.

You cannot move and control your body from the center if you do not relax and let the body connect together like a snake, from the hara to the hands, from the hara to the feet. However, you must be conditioned or the connecting never happens. So first you relax and use no resistance. As you learn to use your ki and kokyu skills the resistance can go up slightly, gradually increasing. Someone who conditions with weight-training or other exercises where they use "normal strength" will never go anywhere in the development of this kind of power.

The point I'm trying to make is that Tohei's translated use of the term "relax" can be misleading. Yes, relax... but within defined parameters.

My 2 cents.

Mike Sigman

Mato-san

11-03-2006, 11:03 AM

Again.....Amen

kironin

11-03-2006, 02:40 PM

The point I'm trying to make is that Tohei's translated use of the term "relax" can be misleading. Yes, relax... but within defined parameters.

My 2 cents.
Mike Sigman

Excellent Point!

:D

kironin

11-03-2006, 02:54 PM

I have to disagree here.
...
K. Tohei was able to gain this insight through misogi. Tesshu Yamaoka taught his students by beating the life out of them. He gave them continuous kenjutsu matches that lasted for days. Finally when the student became a zombie after endless beatings, Tesshu Sensei was able to see the student had learned the lesson of relax completely. The student would hold the shinai gently, since he had no energy to hold it tightly. He would move with mind and body coordination, since it is the most efficient way to move. This was traditional life and death training.

While misogi in the Ki Society is fun, I think you can still learn this lesson by its practice. You don't have to be beaten to death to learn it.

When K. Tohei joined Ueshiba's dojo, he was already a judo black belt. Normally, one could assume he would mention one of his judo teachers as significant. The fact that he mentions Ogura Sensei as the first of his three teachers shows the importance he placed on the practice of "relax completely".

I guess we just have to agree to disagree. From my own experience, I just have not seen that emphasis in training warrants putting Ogura Sensei on equal footing with Morihei Ueshiba and Tempu Nakamura. I don't think mention of him in a list in a translated book means as much as actually what training is.

It's been made quite clear to me by very senior people who should know that Tohei Sensei does not feel it's necessary for people to the things he did in the Ichikukai to learn the lesson about relaxation. I think there is an early story about Tohei coming from one from one of those three day misogi events at Ichikukai and because he was so tired he found a qualitative change in his aikido. You could imagine other scenarios to get in to that state and indeed Tohei Sensei mentions several situations in his experience that lead to the same insight. On the other hand, from day one we are training on elements directly taken from Ueshiba Sensei and Nakamura Sensei. And all the testing focuses on those elements also.

So for me Ogura Sensei just doesn't make the cut.
Just my opinion of course.