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actoman
10-09-2006, 09:33 AM
Hey all,

Obviously the answer to my question is to 'not let him get that far', but that being said, if someone were to get you in a choke from behind, cross-choked like a military style, how could one break that technique if the pressure point on the top of the forearm did not work? :D

Ron Tisdale
10-09-2006, 09:46 AM
if you mean a basic rear naked choke while standing, make sure the moment they go for the choke you tuck your chin down and to the side into their elbow joint. That should keep some of the pressure off of the arteries and create a little space. You MUST do this immediately...any hesitation will allow them to set the choke and at that point, you are basically done for. Better is to catch the attempt the moment they enter behind and start reaching for the choke. If you drop your weight, then raise up from your toes you can actually break their balance upward, then one simple option is to kneel and bow. I usualy have one hand on the wrist and one hand on the elbow on their inside arm when I do this. Make sure they know how to break fall if you are trying this on someone. Another one (after the initial movement) is to turn your hips away from the 'inside' of the choke, and step backwards at an angle past their leg while controling their arm. This can lead to a number of controls, from a kind of reverse ikkyo/ikkajo, to hiji shime/wakigatame, or a few others as well. The old elbow to the short ribs or liver doesn't hurt either as you move.

Best,
Ron

eyrie
10-09-2006, 10:22 AM
For a totally non-aiki response.... a pinch to the inside of the thigh, or a slap to the groin works just as well. If the person knows how to do an RNC, you have about 3-6 sec before you lose consciousness.

Ron Tisdale
10-09-2006, 10:38 AM
If the person knows how to do that choke, pinching or slapping isn't going to stop them. 'Course, my suggestions might not work any better if they REALLY know how to do that choke... :)

Judo and BJJ have some pretty good options for fighting chokes...I'm sure some of our resident Real(TM) fighters will be along shortly to help educate us... (just kidding guys, just kidding :))

Best,
Ron

eyrie
10-09-2006, 10:47 AM
Nope, but it's usually enough to momentarily distract them, which is all you need to take advantage of the situation.

graham
10-09-2006, 11:22 AM
Some years ago, I found a sharp quick jab into the eye was quite effective. Of course, it depends on your ability to estimate/intuit where their eye is, as there's no opportunity to turn round and look! :)

I'm not sure what I'd do nowadays if things had gone that far. Perhaps an immediate weight-drop whilst 'extending ki' forwards?

Keith R Lee
10-09-2006, 11:26 AM
If the person knows how to do that choke, pinching or slapping isn't going to stop them. 'Course, my suggestions might not work any better if they REALLY know how to do that choke... :)

Judo and BJJ have some pretty good options for fighting chokes...I'm sure some of our resident Real(TM) fighters will be along shortly to help educate us... (just kidding guys, just kidding :))

Best,
Ron

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY RON!?!?! :p

The real question to me is whether or not the person performing the choke (assuming we're talking about a RNC) has you standing or on the ground. If it's on the ground and they have the choke sunk in - forget it, it's over. You are NOT goinng to get out. You have to prevent the arm ever getting under your chin, it's the only way to defend the choke.

Standing, you might have the aforementioned 3-6 seconds to do something...but even then I wouldn't put much money on it. A RNC, performed by someone who knows how to do it, is going to put you out fast. Even then, I would assume anyone who came up and knew how to properly apply a RNC is immediately going to drag the person beinng choked to ground anyway. Or at least kick one of the knees out to force the person into a lower position.

The real answer is: don't let someone get your back. Whatever you feel is the best method to avoid that happening is your best defense to a RNC.

Ron Tisdale
10-09-2006, 11:40 AM
now see....Keith knows what he's talking about! ;) The original poster sounded like he was describing a standing choke (which is what makes whether the person doing the choke questionable in terms of applying it...)

Best,
Ron

Aristeia
10-09-2006, 02:34 PM
what Keith said.
How do you defend a left hook as it's making contact with your jaw.
Sometimes you're just caught and that's all there is to it.

Kevin Leavitt
10-09-2006, 03:02 PM
Yup my thoughts exactly Michael!

Someone gets far enough along to actually get you in a RNC or a Cross Collar, not much you are going to do about it. Although lots of good advice above, cept for the pinching thing, it don't work well especially if you only of 3-6 seconds left. Better things to do with your hands such as block the choke or create space.

Ron Tisdale
10-09-2006, 03:30 PM
Cross collar from the front I'[ve never really been as worried about...there are some things you can do there, and if it's used standing really the person is trying to throw you down. The choke isn't what motivates me...it's the throw I know is coming! If they land that throw, and still have the choke, then I'm pretty much done for. I've resisted the cross collar choke and had others resist it well too...

Best,
Ron (now, they weren't sambo players...so...)

ChrisMoses
10-09-2006, 04:58 PM
Cross collar from the front I'[ve never really been as worried about...there are some things you can do there, and if it's used standing really the person is trying to throw you down. The choke isn't what motivates me...it's the throw I know is coming! If they land that throw, and still have the choke, then I'm pretty much done for. I've resisted the cross collar choke and had others resist it well too...

Best,
Ron (now, they weren't sambo players...so...)

A well done cross collar from the front will have you out before the throw is even over. I've been thrown in class before when we were trying *not* to knock each other out, and between the force of the throw and the impact of the fall I've come very close to losing it, and that was with nage TRYING not to fully block the carotid. The judo fairies definitely came to visit me for a while though... (Look at all the pretty lights!) Most aikido people I've seen don't understand how this choke actually works, but the sambo/judo guys can put it on really fast. I've heard a local jujutsu/judo teacher describe throwing guys in randori from this choke when they were already out, so it's entirely possible.

When in doubt, choke 'em out. ;)

DonMagee
10-09-2006, 10:28 PM
I've been choked by guys that had locked it in so fast and so tight I was almost out before I could tap. I didn't even have a chance to defend the choke. I've also had chokes put on me by guys that basically punched me in the throat while they sunk the choke. The pain was horrible, i was gagging and coughing while trying to defend. It basicallly made it next to impossible to defend. I've never seen a cross collar choke standing from the front. Seems like it would be very very very hard to actually get somone in that position without making yourself very vulnerable, but I guess I wont knock it till I try it. When I do cross collar chokes from the ground I'm usually cutting off the blood flow and crushing the wind pipe in once nice neat technique. However in reguards to a RNC type choke. This is my standard defense.

1) Turn my head twoards their hand and try to tuck my chin.
2) put BOTH of my hands on their arm and attempt to take preasure off. They need both hands to choke me, so it is safe to use both hands to save myself.
3) After my chin is tucked and I am no longer threatened, I will work an escape. At this point I can do a lot of things depending on the attacker. He might abandon the choke, he might start to crush my face. He might try to move and take my balance. Usually I can drop my hips, turn into the attacker and take him to the ground. Of course I don't recomend taking someone to the ground unless you know what to do when you get there. Once you defend the choke, you need to learn a good escape for your talents.

A few things I would like to point out, I have had guys try to pinch me, grion shot me, foot stomp me, shin stomp me, eye gouge me, claw at my face, grab for my throat, etc. You absolutly will not be able to survive a choke by me if you do not defend the choke first. All of that stuff 'might' work if you get it perfect, but the simple fact is if you do not defend the choke first and get the blood and air flowing again you will only make me very very mad and increase the damage I am going to do to you after you are out cold. If you want to rake the eyes, or grab the balls, first take both of your hands and defend the choke, get your chin tucked, then grab away. Although personally I would recomend keeping both hands on the arm that is choking you until you have worked an escape. If you are going to resort to these tactics, I would strongly tell you to work with the groin and eyes. Pinching, grabing the throat, clawing the face, pressure points on the chin, ear, arms, elbow joint, legs, knees, feet, shins, hands, and chest have had no effect on my choking. I do not flinch, or give any space. This is because I know that it is only pain and not damaging, I am under a huge adrenailine rush and I know that in just a few seconds you are going to be out cold. The pinches and such work in the gym durring kata because I am not getting an adreanalie dump, and I don't want to make my nage look bad. However in every sparing session I have ever done, none of these tactics have ever worked against me. In fact I have gone home to find huge bruises on my body from pinches and preassure point attacks. I actually have torn ligimants in my thumb from a guy trying to escape a month ago and I have rehab exercises I need to perform to rehab my thumb. Yet that guy still did not escape and at the time I didn't even notice the damage that was being done to my thumb (I noticed it later that night though when I tried to open a jar for my wife).

So I guess i'm saying, defend the choke first. After that if you can gouge my eyes or pull my boys off I'll probably let go because that is physical damage to my body that is very hard to ignore. But scratching, clawing, poking, pinching, biting etc is almost always a bad idea and almost always never works. It is simply going to require a lot more pain then you can give out with those techniques to get my attention because I am so focused on what I am doing and I have a huge adreailine dump.

The last thing I would like to point out is that my wife, family, and friends make fun of me for a low pain tollerance. I'm not even close to being a tough guy.

ian
10-10-2006, 11:06 AM
Pressure point on the top of the arm is unlikely to work. A person applying a good choke knows you have at the most 2 seconds of conciousness, and I would resist alot of pain for two seconds. In my mind, this is the most dangerous attack technique and I have used it several times in real situations with extreme effectiveness.

1st; if you feel they are enveloping your neck (or are coming from behind) drop your chin. Open your mouth so that their fore-arm arm is forced into your mouth and bite the crap out of it.

Ideally you could do ikkyo (slipping under their choking arm and slightly behind whilst holding on to their arm), but if the choke is locked in with their other arm this is very difficult.

If they are locked in reach back and grab their legs for aiki-otoshi (raising them up then slamming them on their lower back); although this can just result in a ground-fighting situation.

Otherwise try and poke their eyes with your fingers whilst grabbing their balls or elbow in sternum (again, if they are good this is unlikely to be quick or effective enough).

Main point - never let anyone get very close behind you (its very easy to take anyone out from behind). I they do, I recommend the bite since it prevents the choke being initiated and gives you time for other options.

ian

P.S. submission wrestlers and MMA do lots of neck exercises to resist chokes, but pretty much they are still buggered once the choke is locked and its only a matter of time (chokes finish most MMA competitions).

ian
10-10-2006, 11:14 AM
P.S. I've heard the idea of tucking your chin into the elbow joint before; but this only works if the person is going for a trachia choke (which takes ages to choke someone out) - in a carotid artery choke (much quicker) the attacker wants your chin towards your elbow.

PPS. we do chokes regularly as an option if someone turns their back to you when doing irimi-nage. The forearm bite method is and the throw (below) are the only ones I've ever felt safe with. Even in the dojo pinching rarely works (a good choker will also drag you back off balance whilst having a protecting leg forward as well so its hard to strike or reach his legs or groin for nipping or strikes).

PPPS. another alternative we do is a throw right over the shoulder. If they are choking with right arm, hold tight onto their arm, pulling it onto your chest, step forward diagonally to left (allowing their body to come forward), slip your right hip under their hips and step forward with right foot (a throw over your back but first step allows their hips to come through rather than carrying all the weight on your back.)

This is effective, but you have to be bloody quick (and I still recommend the open mouth technique to stop the choke being set).

DonMagee
10-10-2006, 12:42 PM
P.S. I've heard the idea of tucking your chin into the elbow joint before; but this only works if the person is going for a trachia choke (which takes ages to choke someone out) - in a carotid artery choke (much quicker) the attacker wants your chin towards your elbow.


That is why I recomend turning your head twoards their hand instead of twoards the elbow joint. Turning your head will help release some of the preassuer and then by using both of your hands on their arm you should be able to make enough space to get your chin down and be 'safe' from passing out (although you are now risking your jaw being broken if the guy is very strong.). I could see biting being effective, however, be warned. I had a guy once test a bite escape on me. I countere his bite by pulling even harder and 'choking' his mouth. Basically the force was hyper extending his jaw and he could not bite me hard enough to really do more then a cut an a infection. His jaw was sore for days and I am sure that if I had continued beyond his tap, I would of broken it badly. Once you defend the joke however, the throws are a good idea to try. as well as dropping your hips and turning into your attacker to get to a basic clinch position. Usually a choke is defended properly the guy is going to do one of three things. He will keep trying to choke your jaw which if you can stand the pain will eventually wear him out as it takes a lot of strenght to maintain a 'choke' like that. He might try to reset the choke by using his other hand to pull your head up, or slide his hand back under the chin. This gives you a lot of time to defend and escape. Or he will abandon the choke in favor of striking you. In this case you better be ready to make a lot of space quickly and defend the back of your head/neck. In all 3 cases if you have gotten that far you have a good chance of escape. The tricky part is getting the defense down before trying the escape. Again, that is placing both hands on his arm/wrist to keep preasure off, then turning your head twoards his hand. And fianlly creating enough space to tuck the chin. By tuck I mean get the forarm above your chin so it is no longer around your neck, but rather along the jawline.

actoman
10-10-2006, 09:34 PM
Thanks all, lots of great advice !

Aristeia
10-11-2006, 12:16 AM
I turn my chin toward the elbow and tuck. It's the tuck that's important. If you turn toward the hand your chin is available to the other hand to be pulled up again. If you turn to the elbow, assuming you've managed to tuck it it's hard for them to get something underneath and pry it back up. If you don't manage to tuck, you're pretty much screwed either way you turn.
My coach has a general rule - turn to face the danger and then back away. This works for chokes. The danger is the elbow - turn and face that and then back out (thinking on the ground now). In other words turning to the elbow both better protects the tuck and better facilitates the next part of your escape.

xuzen
10-11-2006, 01:29 AM
I turn my chin toward the elbow and tuck. It's the tuck that's important. If you turn toward the hand your chin is available to the other hand to be pulled up again. If you turn to the elbow, assuming you've managed to tuck it it's hard for them to get something underneath and pry it back up. If you don't manage to tuck, you're pretty much screwed either way you turn.
My coach has a general rule - turn to face the danger and then back away. This works for chokes. The danger is the elbow - turn and face that and then back out (thinking on the ground now). In other words turning to the elbow both better protects the tuck and better facilitates the next part of your escape.

That is also what my aikido teacher said... but what does he know, he is only an aikido teacher :p . As for my judo sparring mate, he tucks in his chin, pull his lapel close to his chin to nullify my choke attempt. Both were valid attempts.

Boon.

DonMagee
10-11-2006, 07:33 AM
Another defense I use similar to the judo defense you described is to touch my face with my left hand and put the back of my right hand though the 'hole' I just made. This makes it very very hard for someone to choke you.

Ron Tisdale
10-11-2006, 08:58 AM
All good thoughts, thanks guys!

Best,
Ron

Kevin Leavitt
10-11-2006, 02:52 PM
I have gotten real used to keeping my arms in tight up around my head, my neck tucked into my collar, my back straight, and my legs bent at a 90 degree angle.

I get turtled all the time and unless they are really, really good..I don't get choked. In fact I cannot remember the last time I was RNC'd or Cross Collared.

Then again, I am talking BJJ or Grappling games.

Once you start throwing punches things change up a bit, clinch becomes really, really important..then your back to my first sentence! :)

Man I love this stuff!

I hate to say it, but the key to not getting choked is to not let it happen. As everyone has pointed out above, as you gain experience, you are able to be closer to getting choked, but always have responses or actions that you take to minimize the choke from occuring.

Once the choke is there though...not much you can do to back out of it.

tap out, pass out, knock out....it makes no difference to me....

I love that saying!