student has doubts

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[Sean Britton]

I have always been taught that aikido is used to discourage an attacker and to avoid a fight. but a little while ago at the school i go to. As i was walking down a crowded hallway i bumped into someone in a foul mood by mistake. then once i made it outside this person wanted to have a fight. i started walking backwards when he threw a punch which i tenkan around, then a 2nd the same way. But avoiding these swings just seemed to make the attacker even more pissed off. He then went to grab my jacket at the shoulders (which i almost laughed at but held it in). i got him into an ikkyo and took him down to my waist and asked him to stop. this made him even more angry and he flailed around trying to break free until he stopped. i finally let him free when i was able to get on a bus.

Thinking back on it now, using aikido almost looked as if i was taunting him. I also remember distinctly making sure i had a serious look on my face to avoid this very reaction.

So is there anyway to discourage an attacker without having to use force? (i really don't want to hurt anyone)

[xuzen]

You foiled his attacks a couple of time without hurting him and then egress out of the situation quickly enough before he can do anything to you; I think you did wonderful aikido.

Aikido protect self, no guarantee make foul mood people happy. So sorry.

Boon.

[ksy]

You foiled his attacks a couple of time without hurting him and then egress out of the situation quickly enough before he can do anything to you; I think you did wonderful aikido.

Aikido protect self, no guarantee make foul mood people happy. So sorry.

Boon.

damn right, man! some people are already so enraged that no amount of "playing nice" is going to calm them down (speaking from experience as one of those ex-"enraged" people). Sean, if this fella was already so pissed, imagine if you had punched him on the nose. As it was, both of you managed to "walk away". I'm glad your aikido techniques work, and you didn't choose to break any of his bones. In the meantime, keep your awareness just in case the fella decides to spring a surprise attack. Hopefully, when he calms down he would have thought about why you weren't more aggresive.

[stelios]

I believe you acted correctly; I think I would have reacted the same way. What else could you have done mate?
Run away? He may have chassed you so you would be in the same situation some metres down the road.
Yes, Aikido is love, peace and all that but when your physical integrity is threatened and you absolutely cannot do otherwise then and only then use it!
Yet, if he was carrying a gun, a knife? This is another point...

[Aristeia]

work your chokes - unconscious people don't look at all mad ;-)

Good job imo.

[DonMagee]

This is where pain compliance can come in handy. You can take the guy down and jointlock/pin him until he calms down. Of course that is providing he doesn't have buddys. But I've found that throwning someone down and pining them tends to calm them down.

Otherwise it sounds like you did great.

[Tim Griffiths]

It sounds like you did a good job of avoiding hurting him.
But that isn't always the best or "most harmonious" solution, especially with a belligerent agressor. Once you reached the point of physcially fighting (rather than talking him down in an 'aiki' way) then a little pain may have helped, not made things worse. Turn that ikkyo into a nikkyo, drop him on the floor and he'll think twice about getting up and coming again. If you control or avoid him without pain then you don't give him a good reason not to continue to attack you.

I have always been taught that aikido is used to discourage an attacker and to avoid a fight.
True, but when he's throwing punches the time for that is already past. Then its time for the other definition of "Aikido is used to end a fight quickly with the best outcome possible, which usually is you unhurt and the attacker retaining some use of his upper limbs".

Train well,

Tim

[dps]

Physically your Aikido worked and got you out of a fight without harm to yourself ( most important part) and no harm to your attacker (secondary). You will have to wait and see if he ever bothers you again to see if it worked psychologically.

[MikeLogan]

The above point by David is a good one. Here's a random guess, but one part of the aggressor's motivation must have been to try to affect the environment that he felt was affecting him. This can be seen when people break pencils when stressed, (destructive effect on environment), or decide that they should clean the dishes (creative effect on environment). Sean, you were the pencil that would not sit still long enough to be broken. You were the environment that he was trying to affect.

<iffy suggestion>
I'm not suggesting you go to school with one eye over your shoulder, but rather it might be helpful engender interaction with this person in a safe, moderated environment, say during class, or with some neutral third party, like a popular teacher that you think can help this person stay at ease. Who knows, this person might even find excellent outlet, and a positive habit-forming environment while training in aikido...
</ iffy suggestion>

This is where I'd invite all qualified social workers / psychologists / shrinks to offer their advice, with disclaimer or otherwise.

Good Luck Sean.

As to your actual question at the end; short of invoking the eloquence of King Henry the 5th before the gates of Harfleur, I'd say nope.

[crbateman]

Your Aikido served you exactly as it should. The attacker's heightened rage was probably due more to embarrassment than anything else. It is likely that he will rethink his actions, and also come to rejoice in the fact that you let him keep his arm. The point is that you gained and maintained control, and aside from a bruised ego, nobody got hurt. That's aiki...

[Bronson]

It's an odd leap from your story to the one gonna tell but I'm an odd guy :D

When you said:
But avoiding these swings just seemed to make the attacker even more pissed off. He then went to grab my jacket at the shoulders (which i almost laughed at but held it in). i got him into an ikkyo and took him down to my waist and asked him to stop. this made him even more angry and he flailed around trying to break free until he stopped.

it reminded me of a bouncer I used to know. He said that if there was a big guy giving him a hassle and he couldn't convince him to leave by asking nicely, he'd slap the trouble maker. He said that the slap would usually cause instant rage and that in his experience enraged people were easier to control. They didn't calculate or think about their attacks and would over commit and leave huge openings. He claimed it was the calculating, thinking fighters that really scared him.

Just a story that popped into my head.

Bronson

[aikidjoe]

So is there anyway to discourage an attacker without having to use force? (i really don't want to hurt anyone)

I believe you handled it very well; you incflicted no damage and tried to avoid any physical conflict. Some people have such high-strung egos that they are easily angered and insulted, and there isn't much to do with these types of people but be polite and, ultimately, humble them.
My only question is, did you apologize after bumping into the person, and if so, was it an honest apology or a hurried one? Sometimes being polite is the best form of aiki.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Aikido is about YOU, making improving yourself. Judging it's effectiveness on others is not the issue at stake, people will sometimes act in ways we didn't anticipate or want them too! By improving ourselves and our understanding of how we fit into the world, we hopefully will more positiviely influence the situations we are in.

Don't feel like a failure though because a situation did not end they way you preconcieved it should have.

Sometimes it might be aiki to kill some one (unfortunately), some times it might be aiki to smile at someone...lots of latitude for appropriateness in between. The point is that we do so with thought and compassion...which you are demonstrating here by thinking about it.

[mickeygelum]

"work on your chokes - unconscious people don't look at all mad".... ;)

...work on your breaks...a broken elbow is not a lost life....the amount of compassion is that which extends to immediate termination of the assault, yet not the taking of one's life....

Miku-san

[crbateman]

...work on your breaks...a broken elbow is not a lost life....the amount of compassion is that which extends to immediate termination of the assault, yet not the taking of one's life....Your logic makes sense to a degree, but a broken elbow can be a lasting injury, causing permanent impairment (and possibly legal consequences). This is not warranted unless your life is in peril. The takedown and control was effective and entirely adequate. Healing an attitude is better than breaking an arm.

[Sean Britton]

True, but when he's throwing punches the time for that is already past. Then its time for the other definition of "Aikido is used to end a fight quickly with the best outcome possible, which usually is you unhurt and the attacker retaining some use of his upper limbs".

Train well,

Tim

superb advice tim :)


My only question is, did you apologize after bumping into the person, and if so, was it an honest apology or a hurried one? Sometimes being polite is the best form of aiki.

the thing is, in a crowded hallway you bump into a ton of people. so giving every person you make contact with an apology would make me 3 hours late for every class ;)

"work on your chokes - unconscious people don't look at all mad".... ;)

...work on your breaks...a broken elbow is not a lost life....the amount of compassion is that which extends to immediate termination of the assault, yet not the taking of one's life....

Miku-san

the troublesome thing is. if this person comes back. because it is still close to a school, actaully hurting the attacker would get the school and perents involved. it would turn one or two small incodents into a large issue. So if this person tries again, i dont know if the same thing will work a second time.

[mickeygelum]

Mr. Bateman wrote :
Your logic makes sense to a degree, but a broken elbow can be a lasting injury, causing permanent impairment (and possibly legal consequences). This is not warranted unless your life is in peril

Criminal/civil liability only enjoin when the defender role shifts to the aggressor role... the individual persisted in the assault after several countermeasures were employed... unless one is clarvoyent, how does one know what the intent of the attacker...better six weeks in a cast than six feet in a box

Miku-san

[Kevin Wilbanks]

Mr. Bateman wrote :


Criminal/civil liability only enjoin when the defender role shifts to the aggressor role... the individual persisted in the assault after several countermeasures were employed... unless one is clarvoyent, how does one know what the intent of the attacker...better six weeks in a cast than six feet in a box

Miku-san

You did notice this guy is from Edmonton, Alberta right? I notice you live in what was recently considered 'the deadliest city in America', so your perspective may be a little skewed. I think there is probably a greater chance of getting hit by a meteor than being beaten to death waiting to get on a school bus in Edmonton. Predicting a less dire outcome probably does not require psychic powers.

[crbateman]

It would be a stretch of any imagination to think that someone you accidentally bumped into would actually try to kill you, and grabbing of ones person, while considered aggression, cannot be justified as deadly intent. An arm with a weapon in it is begging to be broken, but this incident would be difficult to justify if it ended with a maiming. Since a satisfactory outcome was achieved with a pin and a withdrawal, how could one argue that further injury would have been desirable or necessary?

[ian]

I agree - I had a similar situation myself where I avoided several attacks only to be hit eventually by a bottle (in a multiple attack). I think gentle aikido is used when people are being gentle or arsing around. When they are more serious you must finish them off (i.e. put them down hard enough that they don't get back up). Aikido is a training structure - be aware of the potential end-points of many of the techniques.

There is certainly a matter of judgement, but don't think that there aren't people out their that aren't only prepared to kill you, they will get some pleasure out of it also. In your case, I'd say it was actually quite a succesful resolution. I always teach a strike to the back of the head (you know, just below the lumps) after a pin. Good thing is aikido gives you options. If that was a 12 year old girl attacking you wouldn't want to break her arms and legs.

P.S. I think aikido will seem like taunting someone at times. You are saying to them - 'hit me if you want' and then not letting them. If their objective is to hurt you, you cannot let them fulfill that objective.

P.P.S. also, when I say end-points - you have to realise that hurting this bloke may just have made him want to attack you more (or attack someone else) - its very difficult to judge and I would never criticise someone else's reaction to a situation since you can only do what you can do at the time and nothing more.

[Sean Britton]

You did notice this guy is from Edmonton, Alberta right? I notice you live in what was recently considered 'the deadliest city in America', so your perspective may be a little skewed. I think there is probably a greater chance of getting hit by a meteor than being beaten to death waiting to get on a school bus in Edmonton. Predicting a less dire outcome probably does not require psychic powers.

haha so very true. i think i heard on the news last night some guy lost his shoe :p

[crbateman]

haha so very true. i think i heard on the news last night some guy lost his shoe :pHe didn't LOSE his shoe... It was STOLEN... by a FOOT FETISHIST... from MARS... :D

[mickeygelum]

While the homicide rate in Toronto jumped by 9 percent last year, Edmonton had a total of 44 homicides, giving the Alberta capital the dubious distinction of having the highest murder rate in the country. The next highest rates were reported in Winnipeg, Regina and Saskatoon.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-7-27/44324.html (http://)
Yes, I noticed from where Mr. Britton hails... Yes I live and work in the deadliest city in America...I was not judging his actions to resolve the incident. I will state with absolute certainty, I will never wonder if there is going to be a second incident...never.

Miku-san

[statisticool]

Sean, maybe even try and make friends with that person and give them information about your dojo or aikido in general?

In the hopes they will learn more peaceful ways of expressing themselves, and useful ways to defend themselves from others.

[Talon]

Sean, how long have you been training at sensei Brad Schultz dojo?

[SeiserL]

So is there anyway to discourage an attacker without having to use force? (i really don't want to hurt anyone)
IMHO, depends the person.
To know others is good.
To know yourself, better.
To know both, best.

Many people are "dis-couraged" for different reasons and motivation. For some a simple apology will do nicely. For others with more fragile egos, they must be able to save face. For still others with very fragile egos, it is only taking them to the ground that will "dis-courage" them.

[Steve Mullen]

I had a similar thing to this on my way to catch a bus after training, this guy (whom i had never met before, or since as far as i know) was walknig down the street with his friends, he actually crossed the road to "get in my face" doing that thing where they hit chests with you. I let him do it twice, hoping he would get bored, but when he came in the thrid time i pushed on the shoulder that was trailing behind the other, this spun him round allowing me to push him away.

He came straight back again. The only thing in my mind was how to stop it without having to land a punch as that would have meant his mates joining in and then its 3 on 1 and a lot messier for everyone. So in came his punch, i blocked and pushed him away (again) with what could be a sumiotoshi-ish movement, he came in with another punch with the same hand, so i deflected this and pushed at his face (trying to signal that i could hit him if i needed to) anyway, this seemed to have the intended effect as his mates dragged him away and appolgised to me.

I think even signalling that you can inflict damage can work SOMETIMES i have no doubt that had his friends been "up for it" then the outcome would have been much more vigirous. From the sounds of things you read the situation very well.

[Sean Britton]

Sean, how long have you been training at sensei Brad Schultz dojo?

i have been training under him since april 2005. so little over a year. :)

[Roman Kremianski]

Sean: You avoided 3 punches in a row with tenkan? That's badass. ;)

I'm also a highschool student, so I can definatly say there's a good share of strange kids out there who'd hit you just for "looking at them funny". :D

I would totally agree with Bronson Diffin. I'd rather fight an enraged lunatic then a calm and trained fighter.

[Sean Britton]

Sean: You avoided 3 punches in a row with tenkan? That's badass. ;)

i wish i could take all the credit for that, but he helped me out a lot :D
it seems everyone wants to knock someone out with one big strong punch, and those are the easiest to avoid because you can see it coming for a mile away

[Aran Bright]

RESPECT!!!

Nice work, but it does look like the issue hasn't been settled yet. How's it going? Have you seen the guy again?

If not he may still be pissed and particularly in high school with testosterone and imaginations he may be planning his revenge??? Probably not, but the point I wan't to make is that an honest up front show of respect to him (again in a safe neutral environment) might help. ie. "damn i'm glad you didn't hit me you would have knocked me into next week!"
ok, maybe thats a bit over the top but I feel that although the physical confrontation is over the psychological issue may not be as you did split for the bus and you may see him again soon.

I guess in Aikido we want to restore harmony and if this guy is feeling like he was made a fool of he may have a score to settle. If you can settle that (without breaking an arm) then I think, case closed.

[alex padilla]

Sean,

Nice move!
You can not dissuade him to fight.
He deserves that, and probably more.

Keep on practicing.

[jason jordan]

I
I think even signalling that you can inflict damage can work SOMETIMES i have no doubt that had his friends been "up for it" then the outcome would have been much more vigirous. From the sounds of things you read the situation very well.

Well first I think you handled the situation nicely!
I agree with what Steve said about signalling that you can inflict damage can work.

I enjoy the fact that rather than hitting with a fist, you can hit uke "with the earth". (although I am not against good Atemi).

But since you had the guy in ikkyo already, had you taken him down with some "umph" and help him to make aquaitance with the tatami...(ground) and just held him there fully aware of your surroundigns of course, with a text book finish, that might have also helped.

It is a dis-couraging feeling to be held in a strong ikkyo finish and not be able to move because someone has your arm pinned to the ground and you can't do anything about it. :drool:

And I think that ultimately how you handled the situation will possibly lead him to the lightside of the force.!!!

Good show!!!

[Simbo]

Sean, I know what you're saying in trying to avoid a fight, and about it seeming like you were taunting/teasing him by tenkan'ing away, but (and excuse me if I missed someone saying this previously) what would've happened if you hadn't tenkan'ed and he'd hit you? Would he have stopped with the one? Glad nobody got hurt, and despite your best efforts he still engaged and you handled yourself well, IMO. Kudos

[Sean Britton]

a nice thing happened today. After school when the bus came i bumped into him again trying to get on the bus. i was expecting him to get angry (again), but to my suprise he just smiled and let me on the bus first....i guess choosing not to break his arm from ikkyo payed off, even if it was a good week or 2 later :)

[Guilty Spark]

Blessed is the mine too small for doubt ;)

Sean I think you'll find that with a lot of people. Once they know where they stand with you they stop posturing.

[Eric_Aiki]

This has to be the best thread I have read on aikiweb in a long long time.

Not only do you use your aikido to protect yourself, you followed rule number two - and protected the attacker. Ikkyo'd into submission until he calmed down. Wow.

And, youre further worried about saving him some face by looking serious while you were doing it? Thats fantastic. I only wish I had your presence of mind at that age, and that more young people had such compassion.

Everyone takes something different from thier MA studies, but to me this is the true spirit of aikido right here. Excellently done. On a board where most of the threads are concerned with who's flavor of Aikido is better, or who's sensei is better - reading this story was a real treat. Thank you for sharing. I hope never ever to have to use any martial technique I learn - thats not why I am learning them - but if I ever do I hope to have the same mental clarity.

And you never know - he may have let you on the bus first because he thinks youre superior to him - or he might respect you for never throwing a punch back when you clearly could have. A maturity most of the planet could learn from. Well done Sean! All you Aikidoka whining about whos school/sensei/style is better, take notes. I wouldt be surprised if he starts talking to you at some point and apologizes.

[Ron Tisdale]

On a board where most of the threads are concerned with who's flavor of Aikido is better, or who's sensei is better -

Not to drag down a good thread (congrats to the original poster), but I'm surprised someone would say this. While there are always one or maybe two threads where this type of thing happens, I would not characterize that as "most" by any means. If anything, one of the reasons I come here is that it is quite possible to have an interesting discussion with people from other styles without the pissing match that would often involve elsewhere. Just my opinion...

Say Jun...is there a poll on this?

Best,
Ron

[Eric_Aiki]

Ron-

Good point. Perhaps a bunch of those posts have been near the top the past week or so. I get depressed over the infighting, I just dont understand it honestly. Were all here because we enjoy training, why care whos sensei does, or did, whatever?

But I like the site. I meant no foul by the forums, I was just in a bit of a mood reading the other posts. There does seem to be the endless "my martial art is better than yours" thing going on, but thats everywhere. Its less here than most - I just dont get the mentality at all. Then again - I dont train to use the art, I train to grow.

Sorry for the negativity! Sean rocked it, and his heart was in the right place - that way way cool.

Eric

[Douglas Fajardo]

good job my friend , remember, Aikido is love,Aikido is the way of nature, So no one can break this balance.If they do,they should know who´s in contorl, you don´t have to hurt anyone, As you can see you contorl him wihtout hurt him , he always knew that your control was superior that why he was so angry because he couldnt break your face,dont worry experience is what you need, once you have it,you dont have to fight cause you will see the problem before it get closer