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kokyu
10-07-2006, 09:21 PM
I did this move many years ago, in my first dojo, but just can't remember what tori's tai sabaki was.... so I'm hoping somone can enlighten me :)

The move is still yokomenuchi... but, the starting position for the striking arm is across your face... instead of to the side or directly in front...and when striking, the palm is down instead of up... some might call it a reverse yokomenuchi, others with bokken training might see it as a side cut in the 'other' direction.

I'm thinking that the most natural movement for tori might be a tenkan, so that you can catch the wrist as it swings to the side... but... is that correct?

xuzen
10-09-2006, 03:16 AM
Reverse yokomen-uchi = Gyaku Yokomen-uchi in Yoshinkan term.

Possible (High Percentage) techniques to counter this action are in jiyu-waza setting:

1) Kotegashi ni (tenkan version)

2) Ikkajo/Ikkyo ichi (irimi version), for this you have to get in fast enough before the swing actually start or before the swing acheive great momentum.

3) Ushiro nage

4) irimi tsuki (shomen ate) - but then irimi tsuki is suitable as a response to anything..... see my signature.

The terms I speak are Yoshinkan, I am unsure what Aikikai call them.

Boon.

Dazzler
10-09-2006, 05:39 AM
I did this move many years ago, in my first dojo, but just can't remember what tori's tai sabaki was.... so I'm hoping somone can enlighten me :)

The move is still yokomenuchi... but, the starting position for the striking arm is across your face... instead of to the side or directly in front...and when striking, the palm is down instead of up... some might call it a reverse yokomenuchi, others with bokken training might see it as a side cut in the 'other' direction.

I'm thinking that the most natural movement for tori might be a tenkan, so that you can catch the wrist as it swings to the side... but... is that correct?

You can go forward to the outside of uke. eg. Make irimi.

Or you can withdraw out of range. Maybe this is the tenkan you mean? However - expect another attack if you do this.

If you turn / tenkan where you are you have done nothing and are still on the line of the attack.

I prefer to go forward, many things are posible from here.

FWIW

D

Ron Tisdale
10-09-2006, 07:37 AM
Boon gave the standard Yoshinkan responses...this is a nice attack to shake up your shite... ;) Especially if a tanto is involved! There is a mawashi response that can lead to any number of throws, basically you block with the close hand and pivot, strike uke's face with the free hand, if they block, juji nage or mawashi (lead their blocking arm around and behind causing them to pivot away from you, nice balance break for kotegaishi or pretty much anything else you want to do.

Best,
Ron

eyrie
10-09-2006, 08:32 AM
If you're talking about shuto uchi (knife hand strike), you have to enter from the outside (i.e. the dead side). Wakigatame comes to mind, but anything's possible, except catching the wrist... I would prefer control of the elbow and control of the center.

kokyu
10-09-2006, 08:36 AM
Reverse yokomen-uchi = Gyaku Yokomen-uchi in Yoshinkan term.

Possible (High Percentage) techniques to counter this action are in jiyu-waza setting:

1) Kotegashi ni (tenkan version)

2) Ikkajo/Ikkyo ichi (irimi version), for this you have to get in fast enough before the swing actually start or before the swing acheive great momentum.

3) Ushiro nage

4) irimi tsuki (shomen ate) - but then irimi tsuki is suitable as a response to anything..... see my signature.

The terms I speak are Yoshinkan, I am unsure what Aikikai call them.

Boon.


Boon,

Thanks for your helpful comments... And I speak Yoshinkan OK... I have Shioda Kancho's books (Dynamic Aikido and Total Aikido) and some Yoshinkan DVDs as well...

However, I am hoping you can translate Ushiro Nage... how would that work?

Ron Tisdale
10-09-2006, 09:36 AM
Behind throw, enter as in iriminage, but continue across uke's back to the other side, and use 45 degree pivot to throw uke behind you. When you get a feeling for kokyu it takes very little power for a very dramatic throw, especially if uke has a lot of forward momentum in their attack.

Best,
Ron

Erick Mead
10-09-2006, 03:08 PM
...this is a nice attack to shake up your shite... ;) Especially if a tanto is involved! There is a mawashi response that can lead to any number of throws, Hmm... Knife versus sumo obi. That image lingers in the brain. ;)

There is a nifty kaitennage ( with a couple of off-ramps).

If uke is attacking with the the right hand, nage/tori's left comes across and meets the outside of the attack as you enter and turn soto. The reversing uchi turn then carries it in a big circle down around across your center with the hip turn (there is a gokyo transition available here), then back up, extending the left hand under the arm as you irimi in, raising the left hand behind the shoulder (There is a koshinage/iriminage available here, where the left arm carries the shoulder and head as you step through or turn underneath)

Continuing the kaitennage you also extend the right hand to catch and cut the back of the neck down with a strong cutting action as you enter deeply, shoulder to shoulder, and turn soto again, cutting the head and extending it down, while extending uke's arm up with nage's left hand rising across his own chest.

Then its a kaitennage throw, but close up. There is also a more immediate drop to suwari, which is very optional -- especially depending on how well you like your partner. :D

xuzen
10-09-2006, 11:43 PM
Ushiro nage = ushiro ate in Tomiki term. Click on link (http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10a.html) to see animation of ushiro nage/ate. The picture show kata version, but many nasty thing can come out of this technique if you follow through with it e.g., hadaka jime, okuri eri jime or kataha jime (all judo choking techs).

I am no good with description of techniques using words, I hope the picture can help me describe it better.

Boon.

xuzen
10-10-2006, 02:48 AM
If you're talking about shuto uchi (knife hand strike), you have to enter from the outside (i.e. the dead side). Wakigatame comes to mind, but anything's possible, except catching the wrist... I would prefer control of the elbow and control of the center.

Specifically speaking, I am not so partial to waki-gatamae in this scenario. Reasons:

1) If the swing is really coming and fast, trying to catch a waki is a risk as one may miss and get a body shot to the ribs.

2) In a randori setting, putting a waki is really OUCH on uke if it is applied forcefully or snappy. I hate that done to me or my randori'ing partner. Putting a waki-gatamae from ground is better for training as you achieve better control and less injury risk.

3) Personally I tend to fumble trying to position my forearm against the elbow joint; which if my uke is fighting back, I would have lost the initiative.

Overall, waki-gatamae is difficult to apply effectively in sparring without actually hurting uke unless you apply them in newaza setting.

Boon.

eyrie
10-10-2006, 05:01 AM
Catch!? Perhaps you mean "ride" and "redirect"....?

I think the distinction needs to be made between "technique" (as in a systematic procedure by which a complex task is accomplished) and "technique" (as in the skillful way in which the fundamentals of the art are handled).

Rather than focus on the former, it would be judicious to concentrate on the latter... ;)

kokyu
10-10-2006, 10:37 AM
Ushiro nage = ushiro ate in Tomiki term. Click on link (http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10a.html) to see animation of ushiro nage/ate. The picture show kata version, but many nasty thing can come out of this technique if you follow through with it e.g., hadaka jime, okuri eri jime or kataha jime (all judo choking techs).

I am no good with description of techniques using words, I hope the picture can help me describe it better.

Boon.

Thanks Ron and Boon for the translation - and the animated gifs :p

Having said this though, I usually practice [ushiro nage] to counter shomenuchi... I have to try this in the dojo, but I'm thinking... suppose uke strikes with a reverse yokomenuchi using the right hand... then his right hand [tegatana] and arm will travel from left to right and extend outwards to his right... moving behind uke (assuming you enter from uke's right) means you have to be really fast to avoid being hit...

Doing an irimi (as Dazzler pointed out) and then tenkan (or tenkai) would put me to his side, and in a natural position to redirect his attack without having to rush so deeply behind him...

xuzen
10-10-2006, 10:11 PM
I move fast, I am gifted. Your milage may vary.

Boon.

Dazzler
10-11-2006, 04:27 AM
Doing an irimi (as Dazzler pointed out) and then tenkan (or tenkai) would put me to his side, and in a natural position to redirect his attack without having to rush so deeply behind him...

Thanks SK.

It seems that each style has its own preferred techniques for dealing with gyaku-yokomen and similarly suhei-uchi (excuse spelling) - this is a reverse side strike eg uke has struck with shomen which has been evaded and he follows up with a 2nd strike from the completion position of the first.

To clarify, my use of the word tenkan was not necessarily to describe the turn and step back used commonly throughout aikido but simply to turn back.

Assuming uke has right foot forwards and strikes with the right hand, tori (from ai hanmi posture ) would step forward with the left foot and turn. By opening the hips instead of stepping back room is created for ukes attack to pass its target and dissipate in the space previously occupied by uke.

Some further thoughts.....

My background is primarily aikikai influenced so my training has been more along the lines of studying why this works rather than just doing something that works. For me certain factors are under consideration here.

Most importantly, the depth of entry. Effectively this controls the maai - distance between tori and uke. In the teaching I've received this essential base of aikido will dictate the appropriate techniques and we are taught not to try to impose a technique in a situation which would be illogical.

For instance.....

Tori takes a small step, not quite making up the ground to uke, and this would be ideal position for kotegaeshi for instance. The presence or absence of a weapon could influence the style of the kotegaeshi, eg blade up from a slash can be dealt with in standard fashion (or what seems standard to me across various styles), blade down in stabbing fashion might require a certain adaptation to turn the blade back on uke.

Take a larger step, effectively positioning tori next to ukes side, and as others have said, ikkyo variants or perhaps gokyo against a blade, hijikimeosae (waki gatame?) or even Erics soto kaiten nage can be achieved.

Finally take a full step and irimi nage, the ushiro nage (we would call this ushiro kiri otoshi) are more suitable techniques.

One thing I'll add is that early control of the elbow is essential here, (rather than the wrist since this could expose Tori to a strike with ukes free elbow.

Again, depending on depth of entry it may be preferable to control with the left hand on a shorter entry and the right hand on a deeper entry. Either way it needs to be controlled as Uke positions himself for his countering technique.

This need not be a block since having passed its target the attack will be losing force, but it must be a control to prevent uke rediverting their attack.

Really all of these 'techniques' follow 2 patterns, either a.enter and turn, absorbing ukes attack then redirect it to them, or b. enter and turn, and keep turning absorbing ukes attack in a downward spiral.

Obviously there will be many people who can make the techniques work at any range with the right uke. Fair play to them - I'm not saying you are wrong. All I'm throwing into the pot is the concept of right technique at the right place.

FWIW

Regards


D

kokyu
10-12-2006, 09:48 AM
I move fast, I am gifted. Your milage may vary.

Boon.

Ok, Boon... but I'm getting old and prefer less risky techniques :p

kokyu
10-12-2006, 09:58 AM
Tori takes a small step, not quite making up the ground to uke, and this would be ideal position for kotegaeshi for instance. The presence or absence of a weapon could influence the style of the kotegaeshi, eg blade up from a slash can be dealt with in standard fashion (or what seems standard to me across various styles), blade down in stabbing fashion might require a certain adaptation to turn the blade back on uke.

Thanks for the explanation Daren :D

This paragraph really caught my eye... actually, I did quite a bit of tanto practice recently... and you are right, the way uke holds the blade has an influence on the technique...

I've noticed the following:

1) For tsuki, people seem to prefer stabbing with the blade facing upwards

2) For yokomenuchi, there appear to be 3 styles:
(i) Stabbing with the thumb on the end... and the cutting edge on the upper side
(ii) Stabbing with the thumb on the end... and the cutting edge on he lower side
(iii) Holding the tanto in a handshake grip and flicking the knife sideways

It would be interesting to hear how other people hold their tanto ;)

Erick Mead
10-12-2006, 10:06 AM
Catch!? Perhaps you mean "ride" and "redirect"....? Surf, man --- it's all surfing...

Charlie
10-13-2006, 12:46 AM
Soon-Kian Phang,

This may not deal directly with your question, however, it may help to give you ideas on what you can do for yourself.

This video comes from the All Japan YOSHINKAN Enbu Taikai and is a standard tanto training drill used by honbu dojo...Hope it helps


http://www.myaa.info/media/TANTO_DORI.wmv


Charlie

kokyu
10-13-2006, 10:17 AM
Charles,

Thanks for the interesting clip :)

kokyu
10-13-2006, 09:55 PM
Soon-Kian Phang,
is a standard tanto training drill used by honbu dojo..
Charlie

More importantly, what are the tanto drill(s)? I never knew [kata/kumitachi] existed for tanto.

xuzen
10-13-2006, 11:26 PM
Soon-Kian Phang,

This may not deal directly with your question, however, it may help to give you ideas on what you can do for yourself.

This video comes from the All Japan YOSHINKAN Enbu Taikai and is a standard tanto training drill used by honbu dojo...Hope it helps


http://www.myaa.info/media/TANTO_DORI.wmv


Charlie
Charlie,

Wrt the clips you provided, the first part where they are doing some kind of tanto kata, is this a recent creation? In my dojo, we don't do this.

Boon.

Charlie
10-14-2006, 01:30 AM
Hello all,

The kata form is simply called tanto soho. (FWIW there is a ken soho as well!).

I could not tell you for sure what is the date of its inseption. However, I will ask Parker sensei if he recalls how long it has been used. All I can say for sure is that the senshusei perform this kata every year at the All Japan Enbu. I saw it every year the 5 years that I was there.

In looking at my Yoshinkan publications I find nothing showing tanto soho. However, It is contained in a video tape that the IYAF put out through QUEST video in 1990 that lists the kata as part of the requirements for nidan and sandan.

I do not have the time right now to look through the complete "gijutsu zenshu" video series but I don't recall seeing it on those tapes as well. I could be wrong though and it could have been added to the newer box dvd set (which I don't have...I just have the old tapes)

I believe that it has been around for a while though.

Charlie

Ron Tisdale
10-16-2006, 08:38 AM
I don't know the particular tanto kata in question (the video won't load) but I do know that some of the groups that came up under Kushida Sensei originally practice many tanto vs tanto, tanto vs jo, and tanto vs ken kata that are not particularly common outside of the Kushida lineage.

Best,
Ron

Charlie
10-16-2006, 03:00 PM
Hi Ron,

I checked the link to the video that I provided and it seems to be working ok on my end.

This kata form very well may have been something that Kushida sensei had some input in on while he was still with the Yoshinkan Honbu, however, I am definitely not talking about something that was taught/created by him since his coming to the States [and subsequent departure from the Yoshinkan].

This is a kata form practiced and taught at Honbu dojo. I know for a fact that it is taught to the senshusei and demoed every year at the all Japan. Like I said I saw it with me own eyes the almost 5 years that I was in Japan [and guess who usually demos it at the All Japan...the special riot police that are part of the senshusei program].

The fact is [Boon] that there is A LOT that is taught at the Honbu that isn't taught elsewhere [unless your instructor was a part of Honbu!]

Anyway...since I have a copy of the original IYAF video tapes that contain this form, here is a link to an excerpt that contains tanto soho as provided by Honbu [note on the 3rd dan requirements Chida sensei is the demonstrator]. Hope it helps to fill in the blanks.

http://myaa.info/media/TANTO_QUEST_VIDEO.wmv

Charlie

Ron Tisdale
10-16-2006, 03:35 PM
Hi Charlie, I didn't mean to imply anything more than Kushida Sensei did a lot of various weapon forms, since some here posted they didn't know they existed. Of course, you would be more familiar with the forms taught at hombu than most of us, and I would always recommend that readers take advantage of your experience there.

My instructor was a deshi at hombu years ago...but I certainly wouldn't expect what he teaches to be in lockstep with what hombu teaches now...he has changed, they have changed, and it's all good in my book. I don't know why I have trouble with that clip...now its taking forever to load, and I'm on a highbandwidth link...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
10-16-2006, 03:53 PM
k, i just saved target as and now it's playing fine...we do a similar series of tanto vs tanto kata...1 through 4 that I can remember...our first one has no shikko ho, but our last one does have it. I can see parts of attack and defense that are in ours that are also on the clip. Quite nice...

Best,
Ron

Charlie
10-16-2006, 04:01 PM
Hey Ron...I apologize for the seemingly sharp tone to my last post...it was definitely unintentional and not what was meant! I by NO MEANS consider myself to be an authority on any of these matters and definitely don't consider myself to have any higher knowledge than anyone else here [or anyone else's teachers for that matter!].

I'm with you on the whole Kushida sensei thing and it would be of interest to see if he had any influence on the whole weapons thing. Myself...I think that the kata itself is basic enough to have come from anywhere.

I find it very interesting as well to see what changes and mutations have occurred in Yoshinkan Aikido. Like you mentioned, others have trained at Honbu at various phases of an ever changing "Honbu Dojo" and that is reflected in what they teach as their understanding...who is right?!?

For a system that is suppose to be systematized there is definitely many different flavors going on!

Again...please ignore any unintentional negative tones from the last post...

Charlie

Ron Tisdale
10-17-2006, 09:12 AM
No worries...as I said, it's all good. The amount of diversity is amazing, in light of the systemization...and it's quite nice to have as well.

Best,
Ron

Erick Mead
10-17-2006, 09:41 AM
No worries...as I said, it's all good. The amount of diversity is amazing, in light of the systemization...and it's quite nice to have as well. Given the limited exposure I have had to Yoshinkan, I have wondered how much this systemization affects the development of, or the concept of, takemusu aiki -- the more improvisational development of aiki technique.

I started a thread to follow up on this aspect of Ron's point here:: "Takemusu Aiki in Systematic Teaching?"
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=155981#post155981