PDA

View Full Version : hapkido and aikido


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Elrond
09-15-2006, 11:06 AM
There is an art called hapkido. Does anyone have knowledge or eksperience on this? And one more question; is it so different from aikido? Thanks.

SeiserL
09-15-2006, 11:11 AM
IMLimitedKnowledge, Hapkido is Korean, the originator had studied with Takeda Sensei (same as O'Sensei), but is very different for Aikido.

roninroshi
09-15-2006, 05:54 PM
Arif here's a clip....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8FjXgfEOsQ
and some info...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapkido

Kevin Wilbanks
09-15-2006, 09:33 PM
Arif here's a clip....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8FjXgfEOsQ
and some info...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapkido

Holy cow. Unless those ukes are hamming it up, those guys are being awfully brutal with those pins.

Tim Fong
09-15-2006, 11:20 PM
I'm not sure why this is but every hapkido person I know drives the pins right to the point where they think they are going to dislocate something.

roninroshi
09-16-2006, 07:40 AM
Koreans play rough...when I was in SE Asia in the late 60's,I trained w/some Korean trooper's in
Tang Soo Do...40 years later still hurt's...When we sparred it was full contact w/no protection except for a mouth piece and a cup (if you were lucky enough to find either)

actoman
09-16-2006, 02:51 PM
WOW! Imagine mastering both Aikido and Hapkido, one would be virtually unstoppable. Too bad nowhere in my area teaches hapkido anywhere, or else I would try both!

dps
09-16-2006, 03:58 PM
http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/history.html

For about 30 years GM Choi lived in Sokaku Takedas household. However, there are different variations of which social status he had. In an interview GM Choi himself declared that he had been adopted by Sokaku Takeda. According to other sources, he began as a "house boy" and later became Sokaku Takeka's personal servant. Last but not least, some say that he just attended some seminars at Sokaku Takeda. During his stay in the house of Sokaku Takedas GM Choi called himself Yoshida Asao (GM Choi, statement in an interview) or Yoshida Tatujutu (statement of Master Suh, Bok-Sup in an interview). According to his own statements GM Choi was the only one to learn all 3808 Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu techniques.

Chuck.Gordon
09-18-2006, 02:17 AM
Re: hapkido and aikido
>http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/history.html

Apparently, the Takeda family has denied this. I think there's some in-depth discussion of this as well as (IIRC) some personal interviews, at Pranin's Aikido Journal website ...

cg

dps
09-18-2006, 06:36 AM
Apparently, the Takeda family has denied this. Yes, and I have read many different stories on how Takeda's art got to Korea.

odudog
09-18-2006, 12:59 PM
Hapkido is a cruder version of Aikido. Although this depends on how smooth your Aikido style is. Then add in some kicks & punches which came from some style of old Korean martial art. If you watch the Hapkido techniques, they will seem familiar to Aikido or you can see the principals that are being imployed in some techniqe that you've never seen before. Notice how they spell Hapkido, it is written in kanji which Koreans don't use instead of Hangul which Koreans do use.

ChrisMoses
09-18-2006, 02:00 PM
http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/history.html

For about 30 years GM Choi lived in Sokaku Takedas household. However, there are different variations of which social status he had. In an interview GM Choi himself declared that he had been adopted by Sokaku Takeda. According to other sources, he began as a "house boy" and later became Sokaku Takeka's personal servant. Last but not least, some say that he just attended some seminars at Sokaku Takeda. During his stay in the house of Sokaku Takedas GM Choi called himself Yoshida Asao (GM Choi, statement in an interview) or Yoshida Tatujutu (statement of Master Suh, Bok-Sup in an interview). According to his own statements GM Choi was the only one to learn all 3808 Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu techniques.

I call shenanegans....

The facts just don't match the claims. Hapkido certainly has some connection back to DR or Aikido, but how much and through who is very much an open question. One difficulty for those hapkido practitioners who are trying to do real research into their system, is that the BS has become a part of the accepted dogma, so the truth may never come out.

Another problem is that the term hapkido was adopted by a lot of Tae Kwon Doe schools who threw in some joint locks and throws into their curriculum, so finding 'real' hapkido isn't as easy as it sounds.

As for bein undefeatable if one were to know Aikido and Hapkido, um, yeah, that's cute. :drool:

Qatana
09-18-2006, 07:07 PM
One of the shodan in my dojo is a hapkido master. I'll ask him for a definitive link to a definitive history...

dps
09-18-2006, 07:51 PM
How is it possible to remember 3808 techniques?

Gernot Hassenpflug
09-18-2006, 08:09 PM
Hapkido is a cruder version of Aikido. Although this depends on how smooth your Aikido style is. Then add in some kicks & punches which came from some style of old Korean martial art. If you watch the Hapkido techniques, they will seem familiar to Aikido or you can see the principals that are being imployed in some techniqe that you've never seen before. Notice how they spell Hapkido, it is written in kanji which Koreans don't use instead of Hangul which Koreans do use.

I have no comment one way or another on your argument about hapkido, but I think you may be misinformed on the last part: IIRC, kanji are used in Korea, for names among other things. There was a period where kanji were not taught in school at all (information from my ex-GF), but it was seen as counterproductive, especially because many words are homonyms. So technical works at the very least use kanji for exactness, although in daily use hangul is written everywhere in addition (much like hiragana in Japan, to aid those who cannot read kanji). I would say kanji is making a comeback in Korea. BTW, in Japan too, after drastic simplification after the end of the Pacific War, almost every year now a few more kanji are added back into that loveable general use list (names, mostly) because the initial idea was not as sound as at first thought. China, well, frankly, I think the simplification idea completely sucks. Taiwan, bless their foresight, declined to simplify, I think.

Just my 2 cents.

David Orange
09-18-2006, 08:26 PM
Hapkido certainly has some connection back to DR or Aikido, but how much and through who is very much an open question. One difficulty for those hapkido practitioners who are trying to do real research into their system, is that the BS has become a part of the accepted dogma, so the truth may never come out.

Chris, what you say is true for most people, but I'll tell you who probably knows more about the roots of hapkido than anyone who didn't train directly with Choi, and that's Matthew Rogers of Toronto, Ontario, Canada. I met Matt back in 1991 or so when he came through Shizuoka trying to find out more about Choi's connection to Takeda. He was a green belt then, under Hwang In-Shik, a fearsome hapkido man.

Matt came directly to Mochizuki Sensei to ask his questions and was well accepted at the dojo because, although he was a green belt, he had been training for several years under Master Hwang and had no trouble training with the black belts. He showed me a very light strike that had incredible penetrating power and a pressure point technique that was unbelievably powerful. From the yoseikan, he went on through Japan seeking information at the roots and trained in daito ryu with Okabayashi Sensei in Osaka. So he knows aikido and aikijujutsu in depth and at first hand and he is one of the few men to have gotten a black belt in hapkido from Hwang In-Shik.

If anyone in North America knows the facts about hapkido's relation to daito ryu, it must be Matt Rogers. He posts on e-budo as "mateo" and he may be a member here as well. Here's his website:

http://www.spiritforging.com/

Matt is a guy who will not steer you wrong on anything.

Best to all.

David

xuzen
09-19-2006, 02:45 AM
http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/history.html

For about 30 years GM Choi lived in Sokaku Takedas household. However, there are different variations of which social status he had. In an interview GM Choi himself declared that he had been adopted by Sokaku Takeda. According to other sources, he began as a "house boy" and later became Sokaku Takeka's personal servant. Last but not least, some say that he just attended some seminars at Sokaku Takeda. During his stay in the house of Sokaku Takedas GM Choi called himself Yoshida Asao (GM Choi, statement in an interview) or Yoshida Tatujutu (statement of Master Suh, Bok-Sup in an interview). According to his own statements GM Choi was the only one to learn all 3808 Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu techniques.

I think the (Unofficial) story goes like this...

Sokaku Takeda (S.T.):
Oi, servant boy! Bring forth my meal double quick. Or else I will perform katate-mochi nikajo osae ni on you. Understand?

GM Choi GMC): Yes, my master. Hurries to ST.

ST: You, peasant! Why are you so slow... take this. <Grins evily>

GMC: Ouch! ouch! ouch! <secretly enjoys it>

ST: If you delay again I will hmmm... let's see, do katate ayamochi hiji-shime on you. Do you understand me? <Sigh deeply, why oh why does my servant boy enjoy my punishment so much>

GMC: Yes, sir. <Esctatic>

And over a span of a decade, that is how GMC learned 3,000++ Daito-ryu techniques.

Boon.

dps
09-19-2006, 03:18 AM
I think the (Unofficial) story goes like this...

Sokaku Takeda (S.T.):
Oi, servant boy! Bring forth my meal double quick. Or else I will perform katate-mochi nikajo osae ni on you. Understand?

GM Choi GMC): Yes, my master. Hurries to ST.

ST: You, peasant! Why are you so slow... take this. <Grins evily>

GMC: Ouch! ouch! ouch! <secretly enjoys it>

ST: If you delay again I will hmmm... let's see, do katate ayamochi hiji-shime on you. Do you understand me? <Sigh deeply, why oh why does my servant boy enjoy my punishment so much>

GMC: Yes, sir. <Esctatic>

And over a span of a decade, that is how GMC learned 3,000++ Daito-ryu techniques.

Boon. 3808 ways to use Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu as aversion therapy.

Don_Modesto
09-19-2006, 12:14 PM
How is it possible to remember 3808 techniques?Give 'em different names for variations and from different attacks.

Upyu
09-19-2006, 10:22 PM
Lol, on top of that, apparently Takeda loved to give random names to the same techniques so people would get confused at his seminars. (As in the name of a single technique would vary from seminar to seminar)
:D

JangChoe
09-21-2006, 07:00 PM
Hapkido was founded by two guys. One guy learned from Sokaku and the other guy added the striking techniques in and named the art hapkido (which is the same kanji characters as Aikido). We don't know how much Choi has learned from Sokaku, and in my opinion probably not as much compared to Ueshiba or Sagawa. Choi or any of the hapkido masters never demonstrated skills that was anything compared to what Ueshiba, Shioda, etc., demonstrated (not that I've seen anyway).

Tim Fong
09-24-2006, 04:08 PM
hapkido "breathing techniques"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQySarYHb4k

Look familiar to anyone?

Mike Sigman
09-25-2006, 09:12 AM
hapkido "breathing techniques"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQySarYHb4k

Look familiar to anyone?Pretty good, flick. If you took away the uniforms, etc., I could probably be convinced that it was some version of Hun Gar, one of the hard southern fists. Those qi practices are *very* hard style; my guess is that they're added in from the other system, not from the D.R. (although I could be wrong, since I don't know much about the original D.R.).

My 2 cents.

Mike

Upyu
09-25-2006, 07:47 PM
I like the comments in the background "Breathing techniques for muscle control" yatta yatta yatta..and then cut to impractical kicks using zero elimination of sway, all centrifigal force O_o

And yeah it wouldn't be from DR, I'm 99% sure on that.
Any breath control/internal work would either be honed in weapons work or other basic japanese calisthenics (sumo stamping, etc)

roninroshi
09-25-2006, 08:09 PM
Hapkido breathing techniques are called "Danjun"...designed to develop powerful Ki...

Mike Sigman
09-25-2006, 08:18 PM
Hapkido breathing techniques are called "Danjun"...designed to develop powerful Ki...Aren't they all? ;)

Those are fairly hard-qi exercises, probably borrowed from some variant of Shaolin fist. Those are not the kind of ki exercises Ueshiba did, from what I see that's left in the record.

FWIW

Mike

Tim Fong
09-25-2006, 08:39 PM
Rob: When I was in Korea, all the grappler/fighter dudes practiced ssirum in addition to their primary art. Mainly for conditioning I'm told. Sirrum is kind of like Korean sumo...

Yeah I doubt it is from DR either. My guess is that it's from one of the Naha/Uechi styles that crossed from Okinawa to Japan to Korea. Someone is going to bust my chops here and say that Taekwondo was mainly Shotokan. It's true, as far as the consolidated form goes, but it's not to say there weren't other styles there prior to the consolidation. How do I know this? My old hapkido teacher used to teach us the crescent style stepping. You don't see that in Shotokan.

I'll defer to you on the DR stuff of course. Then again maybe Choi picked that stuff up from some other koryu style? So the transmission would go, Fujian>>Taiwan/Ryukyus>>Japan>>Korea.

Tim Fong
09-25-2006, 10:23 PM
Addendum: you do see it in some of the forms, but _not_ in kihon practice. We used the crescent stepping as a basic movement patern in my hapkido days.

Upyu
09-26-2006, 12:30 AM
Rob: When I was in Korea, all the grappler/fighter dudes practiced ssirum in addition to their primary art. Mainly for conditioning I'm told. Sirrum is kind of like Korean sumo...

That's that "sissy" type grappling where guys hug each other and throw each other to the ground right?? :D jk

Tim Fong
09-26-2006, 11:12 PM
Exactly. Totally useless for the modern elite fighters that we know populate so many budo training halls =)