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roninroshi
09-13-2006, 06:23 PM
HMMMM...What's up with this...seen it and had it done to me by
James DiMille!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx9iPFMriz0

Tim Fong
09-13-2006, 06:49 PM
Sure. There's a lot of ways to do it. It ain't magic...you should be able to do it with just the scapula (heh) in a few months. Tho I'm trying to do it differently these days.

It is how I have started to develop an initial understanding of using the ki/kokyu qi/jing type training in a direct application with measurable results.

There is a disadvantage though, which is that (and this is based on my current and limited understanding) there is more to it and I think it's tempting to get caught on this relatively simple means of generating the power, and forget about the other stuff out there.

Basically this is a nice way of saying, that eventually I'd like to eventually transition away from this way of moving.

statisticool
09-13-2006, 07:44 PM
It is how I have started to develop an initial understanding of using the ki/kokyu qi/jing type training in a direct application with measurable results.


You've measured qi? What units is it in?

Anyway, re: the one-inch punch, I've honestly never understood why these types of things are considered impressive by some. That is, it is often showed being applied to a person in a static posture, which I think most all pushes suddenly applied to a person in a static posture are capable of sending them backwards, because the force required is small, and especially if the pusher doesn't tell them when they will strike (that is, they aren't able to brace for it).


Justin

roninroshi
09-13-2006, 08:06 PM
When Sifu DiMille hit me I held 2 Seattle phone book's on my chest,I was ready for the strike and it felt as if it exploded in side of my torso...when I taught for MT.Dept of Justice Defensive Tactic's
we tried to teach the punch to police cadet's w/very little sucess...I was sparring w/a cadet during a class break and as he closed I dropped him w/the punch,he went down fast and stayed down...Could'nt measure Ki but I saw the effect's...

Thalib
09-13-2006, 08:37 PM
The way I look at it... it's kokyu-ho with a closed fist...

Then again... what do I know...

Tim Fong
09-13-2006, 11:28 PM
Wayne, when you do it do you feel pressure inside your arm/in the upper back? As in, even if you are relaxed, you still feel the pressure?

Tim Fong
09-14-2006, 12:17 AM
To clarify, what I meant was this:

When you "set up" for the punch, do you feel/create a feeling of pressure in your arms/upper back, and then "release it" into the target when you strike? Not trying to jerk your chain about it, just comparing notes.

Mike Sigman
09-14-2006, 12:29 PM
When Sifu DiMille hit me I held 2 Seattle phone book's on my chest,I was ready for the strike and it felt as if it exploded in side of my torso...when I taught for MT.Dept of Justice Defensive Tactic's
we tried to teach the punch to police cadet's w/very little sucess...I was sparring w/a cadet during a class break and as he closed I dropped him w/the punch,he went down fast and stayed down...Could'nt measure Ki but I saw the effect's...Hmmmm.... tricky semantics, Wayne. ;)

The only thing I have against most one-inch punches I've seen is that they essentially work off the front-foot drop and the shoulder, elbow, wrist joints opening (in the mechanical sense) as parts of the power chain. A positive addition comes when the practitioner knows how to add jin to this (as most good southern & northern Shaolin arts do). But this combination, as powerful as it might be, would still fall into the so-called "external" modes. Of course, even the so-called "internal" modes involve additive components to a power chain of some kind, so really it boils down to a question of "what's your favorite power-chain components and how do you train them?".

Technically, I think the preferred power-chain component is going to be the kokyu/jin powered by the waist (yeah, I know some of the knowledgeable ones can see me deliberately leaving things out... let's keep it simple. ;) ). What I generally ask is that someone show me a zero-inch punch and they cannot pull back their shoulder or hand once they've established firm contact with me... it separates the "external" modes of short-power from the "internal" modes and is a good gauge of how advanced a "teacher" is in the use of "internal" power methods. ;)

My 2 centavos.

Mike

statisticool
09-14-2006, 04:50 PM
It is difficult to know what is really being talked about with all these quotes on "external", "internal", and "teacher".

Does anyone know if there are cites in the martial arts literature about the static test (described above) being a good gauge of someone being a teacher?


Justin

roninroshi
09-14-2006, 06:09 PM
When I have used the punch the best way I can describe it is...I feel a kind of a relaxed whip feeling
from a rooted but not "stuck to the ground feeling"and a wave feeling thru my body and out thru my arm,and that flow going into and thru the target...I dont feel any pressure in my body at all,just a
flow of movement...I also do this w/a edge of hand strike and slap as well...no wind up just a kind of explosive relese of "energy"...I feel as though I am a whip being cracked w/the windup happening inside...I am self taught in this working on it for many year's....I find when hitting the target if I have "cotton fist"the penetration is deeper than a hard fist...I have no idea if it is right or wrong...
Wayne

roninroshi
09-14-2006, 09:52 PM
Tim I tried to take the punch apart in class tonite,got my two big guy's got a foam yoga block put it on their chest's and went thru the process...
1.the tighter the fist the weaker the effect.
2.I use a hip movemet to propell the punch.
3.I round the shoulder's and upper back to increase the power,when I hit hard(felt in their inner torso,
thru the foam by my guy's)I add a body whip motion thru the spine,increase's the speed...but I do not chamber the punch...it shoot's straight out and thru the target...with a soft but focused fist.

Tim Fong
09-14-2006, 10:33 PM
Wayne,
Cool. Yeah as far as the chamber, I actually only raise it up my centerline and then "pressurize" the arm, then i let it go. I'm with you on the tight fist/weaker effect thing.

I actually don't use it much when I do striking (since it's kickboxing I have to wear heavy gloves, I use more of the kickboxing structure and not wc) though I do use something similar (open palm) when I wrestle or do judo, just to fight for the grip.

But it sounds like what you are doing is generating a lot of power, no doubt about that if people are feeling it through the yoga blocks.

If you get a chance to check out Rob's stuff on martial movement, it's worth reading. And in the interests of full disclosure, I'm no expert, I'm just another guy trying to figure out how this all works :)

roninroshi
09-14-2006, 10:49 PM
Thank's Tim, it is great to share info...keep us posted.

SeiserL
09-15-2006, 06:46 AM
IMHO, (we practiced the 1" punch in WC/JKD), it is considered a "soft" style but still relies on an "external" mechanical power chain (total relaxation, timed with exhalation, dropping weight, pulling with front foot, moving forward from the center, snapping wrist upward hitting with the lower three vertical knuckles to uproot, elbow tucked down into hip for alignment, and aimed through to the kuzushi point to unbalance) and is not considered an "internal" style.

BTW, put at the end of a jab or cross, its like the end of a whip. Very nice.