PDA

View Full Version : What is Weight Transfer(Taijuuidou)??


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Upyu
09-12-2006, 07:18 PM
Someone posed this question earlier in one of the threads (after PMing me), and no one offered anything, so I thought I'd hopefully kickstart a discussion about this seemingly simple (but important) concept.

I'll outline some of my thoughts on the issue, and was hoping others could throw their thoughts in the basket as well.
(None of this is set in stone, simply comes from my experience as well as from what I've seen and felt from competent people in various arts.)

At first glance the word seems to explain itself. "Transfer" your weight.
Or simply throw your weight onto the person.
If you want to generate maximum force, simply use your weight.
MA=F right?

My personal thoughts are that it's not "that" simple.
Those that've already read my little speal on Training the Body for Martial Movement probably already know what I'm going to get into.
First in order to transfer M, you'll want to make sure that "M" is
100% of M.
For most people this is a "duh, I'm using my body, ergo I'm using a 100%."

The problem is that the human body is loaded with muscles which we've generally trained to act "individually".
The second stress comes locally to any given point, you start to take away the "effect" of "M".

This effect is pretty obvious in the "pushout" drill I posted before.
http://www.badongo.net/vid/197241

If you try and push the other person with localized strength, you'll end up pushing yourself back (assuming the other person is connected).
Most people "think" they relax the shoulders, but when they try this particular drill they'll find they tense up.

Some will try to use the Scaps, which isn't it either. (Try it, but don't use tricks, as in suddenly pushing the other person. The extension has to be slow and consistent)

Still others might try and use the "one" point, which is better, but if you come up against someone that understands "real" weight transfer, you'll probably get jammed.

So what is real weight transfer?
It means that at the point of contact, if you can spread the tension across your body equally, you can maintain perfect balance, maximizing "M".
This applies to whether you're throwing a strike, executing a joint lock or whatever.

For example, let's take kotegaeshi for example.
Most people can resist this technique after several years of MA training. The trick isn't in "how" you lock the wrist, or how you position yourself, but rather how you disperse your opponents resistant force "in you", while sending your own "M" into them.
IE, weight transfer. Which is probably why Gozo Shioda said that its a key principle in Aikido.

So how to train the skill?
Solo training.

Any other thoughts?

PS
I've recently had some thoughts on weight transfer and Aikido's knee walking but I'm hoping to weight until other people kick in with their opinoins.

Keith R Lee
09-12-2006, 08:04 PM
For example, let's take kotegaeshi for example.
Most people can resist this technique after several years of MA training. The trick isn't in "how" you lock the wrist, or how you position yourself, but rather how you disperse your opponents resistant force "in you", while sending your own "M" into them.
IE, weight transfer. Which is probably why Gozo Shioda said that its a key principle in Aikido.


I'm not sure about all the rest of it, I need to give it some thought, but I definitely agree with this. Elbow power # 1 & 2 embody this type of training in my mind (as do all of the kihon dosa really), and are at the very core of Yoshinkan practice.

Upyu
09-12-2006, 08:40 PM
Hiriki is a part of it I'll agree, but I think that helps to "burn in" the lines of tension you need to perform efficient technique. The real hardpart is taking away the frame but still keeping those "lines" there.
Or in otherwords, I dont think a stance is necessary to do those techniques.

dps
09-13-2006, 05:08 AM
For example, let's take kotegaeshi for example.
Most people can resist this technique after several years of MA training. The trick isn't in "how" you lock the wrist, or how you position yourself, but rather how you disperse your opponents resistant force "in you", while sending your own "M" into them.
IE, weight transfer. In kotegaeshi by the time you get to to the "wrist turn out" ( actually should be a wrist curled into the forearm) the timing of the technique should be that the uke is already going in the direction of the throw. Your uke should be unbalanced and you should feel no resistance. Thus the amount of force required to execute the technique should be mininal.

http://www.polyamory.org/~howard/Aikido/kotegaeshi.html

"Then nage will turn back (and step back) in front of uke, applying the technique by turning uke's hand directly back onto the forearm and pulling it down and into their center.


2. turning the hand back against the wrist (with or without torquing) in the direction it normally bends."

Gernot Hassenpflug
09-13-2006, 09:23 AM
Rob, keeping in mind that I don't really have any practical knoweldge of this stuff yet, here's my take. The quality of weight transfer depends basically on how well one can apply 6-direction tension (used here for lack of a better word) in the lower body. I say this because it is much harder for me to feel it there, compared to the arms. Thus, my thinking is that misdirected tensions in the lower body will do the most to change the weight transfer into a small fall instead of an incrementally changing static stable position.

A Reed
09-13-2006, 01:06 PM
Thanks for that Rob, really interesting.

So how does Shiko train this weight transfer skill ? What connections/movements etc are being focused on while doing the exercise in order to increase someones ability to do this ?

Upyu
09-13-2006, 03:45 PM
Your uke should be unbalanced and you should feel no resistance. Thus the amount of force required to execute the technique should be mininal.

http://www.polyamory.org/~howard/Aikido/kotegaeshi.html

"Then nage will turn back (and step back) in front of uke, applying the technique by turning uke's hand directly back onto the forearm and pulling it down and into their center.

Hey David,
You bring up a good point.
The example you pointed out is the "technical" or "physical" (External) way to do the move.

Consider if your uke is unbalanced when you flip his wrist over.
There's plenty of big guys that can do this, and I've recently discovered Rugby will give you a solid base for keeping your "center."
So how do you still do Kotegaeshi on someone that it seems like you haven't got kuzushi on?

My guess (and from practical experience) is that you need to use that very weight transfer that Shioda was talking about.
If you do it right, it should even look minimal. A slight movement will take your uke down, no matter how hard he resists. (Since to them it feels like you're sending your "weight" inside them).

FWIW

Upyu
09-13-2006, 03:53 PM
Rob, keeping in mind that I don't really have any practical knoweldge of this stuff yet, here's my take. The quality of weight transfer depends basically on how well one can apply 6-direction tension (used here for lack of a better word) in the lower body. I say this because it is much harder for me to feel it there, compared to the arms. Thus, my thinking is that misdirected tensions in the lower body will do the most to change the weight transfer into a small fall instead of an incrementally changing static stable position.

Gernot,

Think of it this way.
6 directions will become "atarimae" or a "given."
The tensions are only there so you can learn the lines. Then it becomes a game of how well you can "relax" those lines "into" the other person.

Annecdote:
We recently had a 240lb Australian dude that's about 40 now, but has been boxing since he was 8. On top of that he's had 20 years of Rugby.
When I had him hold the airshield, I had a little of that adrenline rush that was putting a little more tension into my body (in order to keep the connections) than usual.
Result?
My side kick, which normally floors a lot of people (based on shikko movement) rebounded into me.
Surprise surprise, the guy had a fairly stable lower body from all those years of Rugby. Which meant that on the second go, I had to "relax" the lines of tension, which caused kuzushi on him at impact. He was just as surprised as I was, especially considering the non existent windup on my part.

He was a big m"#$""#$er though :crazy:

Anyways, point being, if you can't use the "paths" in a relaxed manner, it'll still rebound back into you.

"Butukari no nai karada wo tukuru" -> "Create a body that does not impede any force" is what Sagawa said. I'm starting to get an inkling as to what he was hinting at.

By the by,
Six directional force in the upper and lower parts of the body are equally important if you ask me, its the harmonization of those paths on the front side and back side, upper and lower, that're most important at the first stage. Chouwa suru koto ga ichiban taisetu kamosirenai.

Upyu
09-13-2006, 03:59 PM
Thanks for that Rob, really interesting.

So how does Shiko train this weight transfer skill ? What connections/movements etc are being focused on while doing the exercise in order to increase someones ability to do this ?

Well...it'll get long and convoluted in words I think.

Basically in the beginning you train

a) to lead the entire body with the arm (I know that sounds contradictory to whole body power, but its a training tool)

b) It builds and seperates your body into roughly three different axis. Basically its an indepth study into how the human body transfers weight.

c) At the same time you build up a connection between both arms as one connection. That is to say, something happening in one arm should directly affect the other arm.

What you'll want to focus on:
*Keeping the knees slightly pushed out as the leg is raised
*The leg is raised as a result of the tension being led by the HAND. I.E. the leg does not move seperatly, it needs to move as a result of the tensions pulling it.
*Keeping the cross in the chest.
*Keeping an up/down tension (fat golden buddhas with silken threads :D )
*Keeping a front-back tension

Let me stress here that all the qualities you learn in the TenChiJin exercise mentioned in the Training Article are present in Shiko.
So part of the puzzle is figuring out how to keep those qualities intact as you shift from side to side going through the movements.

eyrie
09-13-2006, 05:35 PM
So how do you still do Kotegaeshi on someone that it seems like you haven't got kuzushi on?

My guess (and from practical experience) is that you need to use that very weight transfer that Shioda was talking about.
If you do it right, it should even look minimal. A slight movement will take your uke down, no matter how hard he resists. (Since to them it feels like you're sending your "weight" inside them).


I think you have to!

Externally and physically speaking, fune-kogi undo is one way of accomplishing the weight transfer...

Internally... the best analogy I can come up with is like a taut elastic cord running through your skeleton, from the rear foot to the hands. As you stretch the cord from the middle (however you want to stretch it - by breath or winding), because the foot end is anchored, the tension has to be released out the "free" end.

My description probably sux, since I failed high school physics... ;) but my guess is that depending on the strength of that "cord", and one's abillity to release the elastic energy through the hands into the other person is probably the key - effectively transferring the weight of your body through the hands into the other person - usually towards the "open gate" in order to effect kuzushi.

I've been experimenting with the idea lately... just from a same side wrist grab and throwing the person without moving my feet, and with the barest minimum movement, just by sending my weight through the empty spot(s).

One of my students is 126kg (big Maori dude built like a brick sh!thouse!), and when I get this curious look on his face when he falls over, I know I've done it right. ;) The trick is getting him to use his 126kg frame to do the same to me without him using arm power. :)

However, at this stage, I'm not certain if it's exactly "weight", or conversion of "weight" or energy potential to force that's involved. What are your thoughts?

Mike Sigman
09-14-2006, 09:07 AM
My description probably sux, since I failed high school physics... ;) but my guess is that depending on the strength of that "cord", and one's abillity to release the elastic energy through the hands into the other person is probably the key - effectively transferring the weight of your body through the hands into the other person - usually towards the "open gate" in order to effect kuzushi.

I've been experimenting with the idea lately... just from a same side wrist grab and throwing the person without moving my feet, and with the barest minimum movement, just by sending my weight through the empty spot(s).

One of my students is 126kg (big Maori dude built like a brick sh!thouse!), and when I get this curious look on his face when he falls over, I know I've done it right. ;) The trick is getting him to use his 126kg frame to do the same to me without him using arm power. :)

However, at this stage, I'm not certain if it's exactly "weight", or conversion of "weight" or energy potential to force that's involved. What are your thoughts?Hi Ignatius:

I don't totally agree with what you're saying or with your analogy/visualization, but I pretty much understand what you're trying to say and I agree/understand with those general principles.

The point I'd make is that you're having to use a lot of self-discovery (as does Rob, as do I, etc.) and you're both finding your way AND trying to describe something publicly in a satisfactory way, so the upshot is that your description will be different from Rob's will be different from mine and we all 3 (there are other people also, but I'm just making a point using 3 examples) will have varying degrees of skills and varying emphases in what we do exactly... so some terminology and description differences are to be expected. This question of "why there are differences in descriptive terminology throughout Asia" is probably being answered, as we speak, in this thread.

Regards,

Mike

Michael McCaslin
09-14-2006, 09:15 AM
Rob,

Could you elaborate on what the mechanism is for the "front-back tension" and how to effect it. I'm pretty sure I'm missing that piece of the puzzle. If there is a movement I can practice that will point to it maybe that will help me sort it out.

Thanks,

Michael

Alfonso
09-14-2006, 04:17 PM
just your regular reminder that

shiko <> shikko
(sumo exercise) (knee walking)

Upyu
09-14-2006, 05:18 PM
Michael:
The part you'll want to refer to is

Now, extend the arms out.
Elbows straight.
Hands in fists. Put some power into your fists.
Elbows over Knees. This is extremely important. Elbows over KNEES.

Drop the shoulders, but at the same time do NOT let the small of your back unstick from the wall.

Now, slowly lower your spine straight down, still pressing the small of the back to the wall.
It should feel like someone's pulling you forward, but at the same time you're pulling yourself back. This is the foward/backward contradictory force part of the excercise



in the "Training the Body. Part 2: Exercesis" thread. :)

Upyu
09-14-2006, 05:20 PM
One of my students is 126kg (big Maori dude built like a brick sh!thouse!)


Dammit...why can't we import those over here... :(

Erick Mead
09-15-2006, 08:56 AM
For example, let's take kotegaeshi for example.Most people can resist this technique after several years of MA training. The trick isn't in "how" you lock the wrist, or how you position yourself, but rather how you disperse your opponents resistant force "in you", while sending your own "M" into them.
IE, weight transfer. Which is probably why Gozo Shioda said that its a key principle in Aikido. Gotte disagree here on the "resist" issue. If by "resist" you mean to absorb the Big Strong Guy's (tm) application of the Wicked Wrist Crank (tm) as a shugyo exercise in ukemi, maybe But as nage waza, no thanks. I am not dispersing his resistant force, because I do not apply the cranking force for him to resist. My kotegaeshi has nothing to do with wrist cranking, and everything to do with tai-sabaki and kokyu tanden, as I was taught. The wrist just provide positive connection to tie his movement to mine. Nor is the wrist the the only connection.

In kotegaeshi ura-waza soto mawari, I was taught to initially connect from the ankle, knee, hips shoulder, elbow and wrist. There is no point of articulation where he can move separately from me, and when that movement is begun I turn and remove myself from the hole he is about to fall into. Uke falls because he simply has nothing (other than me) holding him up any more when I and he move together, and when I extend our connection then his structure collapse of its own accord. Omote waza essentially uses the same principle in reverse, beginning with a typically extended connection and then progressively connecting at the points of articulation while turning in an entering -- drawing him more and more firmly out of his center in kokyu tanden, until he has no further support and again collapses.

If he is capable of entering in return for the kaeshi in the omote waza you simply continue the entry and turn carrying his center out and around in kokyu tanden and it becomes kokyunage or koshi nage. If he does the same in ura waza typical henka are iriminage or some species of otoshi.

If by "weight transfer" you mean this application of kokyu tanden, then maybe its a matter of appples -- Granny Smith versus Macintosh but apples all the same. "Weight transfer" has a linear force-couple/plane rotation feel to it , which is a good principle or image for judo, but is not complete image for how aikido functions. Kokyu tanden is more gyroscopic in its application -- the resultant is not easily correlated with the input vectors.

Prompting connection is aiki -- but provoking resistance is not aiki. The difference is in the application of juji +. A fine line perhaps, but a definite line nevertheless.

Michael McCaslin
09-15-2006, 09:35 AM
Rob,

Thanks for the reply. I read and printed the exercesis thread. I don't know how I managed to overlook it-- hiding in plain sight, I suppose. There are a lot of details to track with this stuff-- thanks again for your help and for sharing what you are learning with us.

Michael

davidafindlay
09-15-2006, 09:38 AM
Hi Erick,<snip lots of stuff>Prompting connection is aiki -- but provoking resistance is not aiki.I guess its how you define "connection" and "resistance" and how the skills of controlling someone are cultivated.

IMHO, culitvating resistance in the beginning can be a good thing, as most people aren't sensitive right off the bat to really know where their uke's force and intent is _really_ going.

I've found that if connection is trained with _a_lot_ of resistance in the beginning (with the caveat that it is understood that it is only a stepping stone to higher skill), then the ability to actually learn to connect to someone is greatly improved. In this model as the feeling for real connection improves then the resistance in an exercise is reduced.

Plus, typically, once uke resists (especially if they don't realise they are), connection to uke should be easier and hence also the ensuing application.

Obviously - this approach can have its own pitfalls, but I reckon it can highlight a lot of gaps in basic movement that would otherwise have tori's application go to custard.The difference is in the application of juji +. A fine line perhaps, but a definite line nevertheless.Perhaps I've missed that fine line... Can you define "juji" and its application? :)

Cheers,
Dave.

dps
09-15-2006, 03:35 PM
So how do you still do Kotegaeshi on someone that it seems like you haven't got kuzushi on?If you don't have kuzushi you don't continue with the Kotegaeshi, you do a different technique. That technique is dependent on the direction uke is exerting the force of the resistance. Aikido is not a battle of your force against uke's force. You blend in with the direction that uke's mass and acceleration is already taking him/her.

Which is where I see more value to what you and Mike and others are talking about internal strength. I think that what you are saying is more applicable to uke's attack and what is going on with uke's body. If you understand where uke's balance and power is, then you can match your Aikido technique to it, not confront it with your own power.

This is not to say that your ideas are not effective in an striking, kicking art, but my understanding about Aikido is more to do with knowing how to use uke's balance and power against him and not nage's power.

David

Mike Sigman
09-15-2006, 03:49 PM
If you don't have kuzushi you don't continue with the Kotegaeshi, you do a different technique. Hmmmmmm..... I can think of a number of times where I haven't had kuzushi, but I had the kotegaeshi and then pretty quick I had kuzushi. Remember that all general statements of fact are subject to error except this one. That technique is dependent on the direction uke is exerting the force of the resistance. Aikido is not a battle of your force against uke's force. You blend in with the direction that uke's mass and acceleration is already taking him/her. So think about the examples on film of where O-Sensei or Shioda, etc., respond to uke's attack with a shoulder strike or push uke back up into the air after grabs or use their back straight against uke pushing into their back. How does your statement "blend in with the direction that uke's mass and acceleration is already taking him/her" work? Unless, of course, you're positing that they had it wrong? ;) Which is where I see more value to what you and Mike and others are talking about internal strength. I think that what you are saying is more applicable to uke's attack and what is going on with uke's body. If you understand where uke's balance and power is, then you can match your Aikido technique to it, not confront it with your own power.

This is not to say that your ideas are not effective in an striking, kicking art, but my understanding about Aikido is more to do with knowing how to use uke's balance and power against him and not nage's power. Well wait a minute... Aikido uses those nasty ole atemi/strikes.... would you say those should be left for the martially inferior "striking, kicking arts"? Personally, I don't know anything about how Rob fights so I won't speak for him, but as amateurish as I admittedly am, I can still usually "blend with" and snatch a fair number of people around using their own forces. I.e., let's not get the impression that Aikido has a monopoly on anything. I don't know of any art that does.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

eyrie
09-15-2006, 07:13 PM
I have to agree with Mike... the issue is not whether you have kuzushi or not before you can effect the technique, but rather HOW to effect kuzushi in order to complete the technique. Usually, if you can effect kuzushi on contact, often uke will already start to collapse their structure even before the technique is completed.... unless they are extremely well-connected.... in which case something else possibly needs to happen and then it depends on relative ability and skill.

I think (on a basic level) the thing to look at is how to transfer your "weight" to the weak points in uke's structure so as to render them incapable of supporting the "combined" weight - usually at the outer limits of where the body can maintain its own structural integrity.

Let's use our big Maori dude as an example... he has huge hands and wrists, and not a lot of joint flexibility. Often it is quite difficult to "twist" (or bend or fold if you prefer?) his wrist into kote-gaeshi, even (especially!!) if some external force is applied. However, knowing where the outer limit of his structural integrity lies, I can quite easily drop him instantly, without getting the actual "kote-gaeshi". Or, have him drop himself by simply getting him to resist the technique. The more he resists, the quicker he drops.

This has to do with my adding weight through the weak points and outer limits of his structural integrity whilst maintaining my own structural integrity, so much so that his structure can no longer support the additional weight. Of course, there are other body tricks that can be used to augment the technique...but that's another story.

The point is, it doesn't take much physical force or weight to effect this... it's as delicate and subtle as 2 forks and a needle stuck in a cork balancing on a string. If one fork is heavier or denser than the other, the CG is off and the whole contraption is unbalanced.

As for striking/kicking... well, these are part and parcel of aikido waza. That they are not openly or overtly practiced doesn't mean they don't exist or are not part of the paradigm. If the opening presents itself for atemi or if atemi is necessary to create the opening, then I see no reason why one should limit one's technical repertoire. After all, what good is learning sword and staff within an aikido context if one does not learn how to use one's body as an extension of the sword or jo (or vice versa)?

Gernot Hassenpflug
09-15-2006, 08:30 PM
In agreement with Mike's comment: Abe sensei often shows the blending part of a movement in large form, before making it a smaller almost-invisible movement. He then goes on state that although this is hard to learn to do, the hardest thing is doing a technique where the uke's energy is bounced straight back into him, with no giving way and blending on the part of tori.

Mike Sigman
09-15-2006, 09:21 PM
In agreement with Mike's comment: Abe sensei often shows the blending part of a movement in large form, before making it a smaller almost-invisible movement. He then goes on state that although this is hard to learn to do, the hardest thing is doing a technique where the uke's energy is bounced straight back into him, with no giving way and blending on the part of tori.Eek. I think it's the easiest thing to do. It's what Rob and Ignatius are using in their BJJ encounters, as I understand their descriptions. ;) To me, it is the "place to start looking and understanding" when you can do that.

FWIW

Mike

Mike Sigman
09-15-2006, 09:25 PM
The point is, it doesn't take much physical force or weight to effect this... it's as delicate and subtle as 2 forks and a needle stuck in a cork balancing on a string. If one fork is heavier or denser than the other, the CG is off and the whole contraption is unbalanced.

As for striking/kicking... well, these are part and parcel of aikido waza. That they are not openly or overtly practiced doesn't mean they don't exist or are not part of the paradigm. If the opening presents itself for atemi or if atemi is necessary to create the opening, then I see no reason why one should limit one's technical repertoire. After all, what good is learning sword and staff within an aikido context if one does not learn how to use one's body as an extension of the sword or jo (or vice versa)?It's weird. I know exactly what you're saying and I agree with you, but reading it through the eyes of someone who doesn't know, it doesn't tell anyone anything. Strange. :)

I tend to think of an opponent as a 4-legged stool that has the 2 diagonal legs missing. He may have a number of ways to weight-shift and keep his balance (including putting some of his weight on me, thereby giving him 3 legs total), but understanding his balance and "hearing" his forces, he's almost always moveable (i.e., "double-weighted") when I use my middle to do it.

FWIW

Mike

clwk
09-15-2006, 10:34 PM
I tend to think of an opponent as a 4-legged stool that has the 2 diagonal legs missing. He may have a number of ways to weight-shift and keep his balance (including putting some of his weight on me, thereby giving him 3 legs total), but understanding his balance and "hearing" his forces, he's almost always moveable (i.e., "double-weighted") when I use my middle to do it.Here's a variation on the theme - i.e., the same principle put into a more concrete situation. You have posted before about using the ground to nullify kote mawashi (nikajo). That obviously works well, but I find that sometimes, if I let nage get my wrist into the least advantageous possible position (for the sake of training) where they have maximum compression of the wrist to the forearm and have their full body weight to bring the fingers up and over (in other words, it's becoming a pure attack on the joint) that this can surpass what I can take 'into my body'.

At this point though, or even if you *could* just use the ground to hold nage statically, it's an interesting exercise to move him by either sending his crank back into him so that he pushes himself into the hole to his rear, or redirect it so that he pulls himself into the hole to the front (there are other directions, but these are the most obvious and easiest ones to get started with). It's frustrating for nage (so, somewhat anti-social I'll admit) because even though he knows you're not letting him have the technique, it's hard to understand what you're doing, and he feels like he's robbing himself of his own power.

I just thought I'd throw that out there in case someone else wanted to play with it. The good thing about being uke for joint locks is that it's the one time you're guaranteed to get that 'committed attack' we're always whining about not getting. Nage always 'commits' to putting the lock on uke, and . . . viola!

-ck

Erick Mead
09-15-2006, 11:07 PM
Hi Erick,I guess its how you define "connection" and "resistance" and how the skills of controlling someone are cultivated. There are many paths, no doubt.
IMHO, culitvating resistance in the beginning can be a good thing, as most people aren't sensitive right off the bat to really know where their uke's force and intent is _really_ going. To the extent that nage or uke needs enough to feel above their threshhold, I agree. Beyond that, additional force, I think, is counterproductive. A fine balance must be struck and always try to keep them teetering at the edge of the sensation they are feeling for. If you don't do that and keep the dynamic toward ever less "firm" (apart from atemi) then the dynamic naturally tends toward the other gradient -- the testerone-competitive monster tends to jump in and starts the "me-bad" dynamic. It is not as helpful to development of good musubi connection.
Can you define "juji" and its application?
Several of O-Sensei's Doka mention it, one even calls the art "jūjido." Juuji or jūji ( 十字 ) is the cross-shape or sign of the cross (for those so inclined). It is a symbol, a physical principle, a template for technique and spiritual basis for contemplation of practice.

As kanji, 十 juu not only means "cross" and "ten" but also "whole" or "complete." As a symbolic image in Japan, the horizontal symbolizes Earth, and the vertical symbolizes Heaven, i.e. -- tenchi, the union of heaven and earth at the center. It is another means of depicting in-yo with the dynamic elements of the opposed eight powers (bagua) built in.

As a physical principle, juji depicts the action of perpendicular component forces. In motion in a linear plane, perpendicular forces resolve to linear diagonal forces in proportion to magnitude of the two components. Judo in contrast focuses on using or creating an offsetting pair of opposed forces (a couple) to initiate rotation. In an already rotational or vibrational frame, force perpendicular to the rotational or vibrational plane have resulting perpendicular forces that are not linear, because of the inherent angular momentum, the resultant force depends on where along the radius of rotation/vibration the output is taken. The fact of that momentum also allows the sytem to absorb a great deal of energy withou out readily perceptible change.

Juji in aikido presupposes that there is an existing rotational or vibrational energy to receive and gyroscopically transform a single input force into perpendicular output at a variable scale of radial amplification. That vibration or energy is ki no kokyu, or if you prefer the technical description, the physical application of the principle of virtual work on an instantaneously and infintesimally rotating body (at each joint rotational articualtion in turn and ultlimately at the collective rotational center of mass (tanden).

As a template for technique, heaven and earth are joined statically by their intersection at the center, and thus the center is arrived at by moving directly along the line. The conduit for kokyu tanden is established by feeling of that angle "lock" where the components of force are all cancelled in one dimension, leaving a complete freedom of movement there. The vertical dimension and the horizontal dimension of the figure are also joined dynamically by the fact that one becomes the other by simple rotation. Thus, the center is arrived at by spiral motion. The proof is left as an exercise for the class ...

As a spiritual contemplation, well, here you go:

The spiritual essence
of heaven and earth
congeals as the source of our Path.
The peace and happiness of the world
is linked to Heaven's Floating Bridge.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Mike Sigman
09-17-2006, 08:12 AM
There are many paths, no doubt.
To the extent that nage or uke needs enough to feel above their threshhold, I agree. Beyond that, additional force, I think, is counterproductive. A fine balance must be struck and always try to keep them teetering at the edge of the sensation they are feeling for. If you don't do that and keep the dynamic toward ever less "firm" (apart from atemi) then the dynamic naturally tends toward the other gradient -- the testerone-competitive monster tends to jump in and starts the "me-bad" dynamic. It is not as helpful to development of good musubi connection.

Several of O-Sensei's Doka mention it, one even calls the art "jūjido." Juuji or jūji ( 十字 ) is the cross-shape or sign of the cross (for those so inclined). It is a symbol, a physical principle, a template for technique and spiritual basis for contemplation of practice.

As kanji, 十 juu not only means "cross" and "ten" but also "whole" or "complete." As a symbolic image in Japan, the horizontal symbolizes Earth, and the vertical symbolizes Heaven, i.e. -- tenchi, the union of heaven and earth at the center. It is another means of depicting in-yo with the dynamic elements of the opposed eight powers (bagua) built in.

As a physical principle, juji depicts the action of perpendicular component forces. In motion in a linear plane, perpendicular forces resolve to linear diagonal forces in proportion to magnitude of the two components. Judo in contrast focuses on using or creating an offsetting pair of opposed forces (a couple) to initiate rotation. In an already rotational or vibrational frame, force perpendicular to the rotational or vibrational plane have resulting perpendicular forces that are not linear, because of the inherent angular momentum, the resultant force depends on where along the radius of rotation/vibration the output is taken. The fact of that momentum also allows the sytem to absorb a great deal of energy withou out readily perceptible change.

Juji in aikido presupposes that there is an existing rotational or vibrational energy to receive and gyroscopically transform a single input force into perpendicular output at a variable scale of radial amplification. That vibration or energy is ki no kokyu, or if you prefer the technical description, the physical application of the principle of virtual work on an instantaneously and infintesimally rotating body (at each joint rotational articualtion in turn and ultlimately at the collective rotational center of mass (tanden).

As a template for technique, heaven and earth are joined statically by their intersection at the center, and thus the center is arrived at by moving directly along the line. The conduit for kokyu tanden is established by feeling of that angle "lock" where the components of force are all cancelled in one dimension, leaving a complete freedom of movement there. The vertical dimension and the horizontal dimension of the figure are also joined dynamically by the fact that one becomes the other by simple rotation. Thus, the center is arrived at by spiral motion. The proof is left as an exercise for the class ...

As a spiritual contemplation, well, here you go:



Cordially,
Erick MeadHi Erick:

Well, all those years of statics, mechanics, physics, assorted math and physical sciences classes have apparently been for naught: I don't know what you're trying to say. Assuming all the usages by O-Sensei of standard/traditional Chinese references about heaven and earth and man, the bridge between heaven and earth, etc., etc., are not just some impossible coincidence, then I have a vague and general idea what O-Sensei is saying (because there's a general philosophy and physical explanation behind these things). What you're saying about "vibrational" things and "angular momentum, etc., may be interesting, but it's not really coherent, at least not to me. So I'd appreciate it if you could simplify it and make it somewhat clearer.

All the Best.

Mike Sigman

eyrie
09-17-2006, 05:42 PM
If an engineer can't understand that, what hope do we mere mortals have? (Especially ones that failed physics!)

BTW, liked the 4-legged stool with 2 legs missing analogy.... much easier to explain and understand - to an 8yr old. ;)

Erick Mead
09-17-2006, 11:21 PM
Well, all those years of statics, mechanics, physics, assorted math and physical sciences classes have apparently been for naught: I don't know what you're trying to say.
Assuming all the usages by O-Sensei of standard/traditional Chinese references about heaven and earth and man, the bridge between heaven and earth, etc., etc., are not just some impossible coincidence, then I have a vague and general idea what O-Sensei is saying (because there's a general philosophy and physical explanation behind these things). What you're saying about "vibrational" things and "angular momentum, etc., may be interesting, but it's not really coherent, at least not to me. So I'd appreciate it if you could simplify it and make it somewhat clearer. Two dimensional state vectors at perpendicular angles (or any angle, really, but we are talking about juji + ) have a resultant that is the vector sum of the two i.e. -- a vector headed north and a vector headed west sum as a vector headed northwest. The magnitude of the vector is likewise a Pythagorean function (in the case of right angles (or a trigonometric function of the vector addition of any other angles).

But the human body is not a two dimensional object. The body as a whole can rotate in three axes about its center. Most human joints have more than one degree of freedom, some have two or three, even if some axes are more restricted, and one is a universal joint within its limits of rotation.

Dynamics of rotating objects require gyrodynamic analysis. Apply force to a rotating object and the resultant vector is ninety degrees out, on an axis that is not in the plane formed by the vector force and the axis of rotation of the object to which it is applied. This is counter-intuitive to the two-dimensional force assumptions that frame most people's walking-around knowledge, and counterintuitive to innate learning of most people's bodies. Gyrodynamic action also exists in vibrating as well rotating bodies.

To which the engineer says, most reasonably, that none of the joints in question rotate at a rate with sufficient momentum for classical gyrodynamic action. But what engineers puzzle over -- helo pilots live and die by and thus learn intuitively, wherefore the points I am making.

For all of our mechanical articulation, human beings are also not classical mechnical objects or mechanisms. We are exceedingly complex feedback engines. In short -- we can push back in quite disproportionate and confusing ways.

I have puzzled for years over the nature of the action involved in aikido technique. It is symbolized by the tachi sword and its deescendants, whose shape implies the spiral that gives it cutting efficiency. It is implied in the Red and White Jewels of O-Sensei's Doka. Jewels in classical Japanese reference mean the magatama shape, the comma-like elements of the tomoe, the same as reputed to be the shape of the Jewel of the Imperial Regalia. It is also the shape of the arm held in tegatana, the bent "unbendable" arm.

The principle of virtual work is another counterintuitive concept. To determine the dynamics of an complex articulated object that is too difficult to analyze in motion, assumes it is static and hardly moves at all. In more techincal words, it calculates the dynamic by an infinitesimal movement over an infinitesimal time. Without belaboring the specifics of the method of virtual work, suffice it to say that it is a very powerful tool for situations where other tools simply fail, miserably. Bernoulli's underlying assumptions about all things finding equilibrium also has resonance in aiki priniciples.

Aiki, ki musubi, uses the kinesthetic apparatus associated with every joint of the body. Most joints of the body are themselves complex affairs, and the body's articulated system of joints is yet more so. Two levels of virtual work analysis are necessary to fully assess the equilibrium conditions of the human body in dynamic action.

The human brain and body is analogous to a programmable analog computer. It is capable of calculations that are mathematically indistinguishable from the solution of difficult sytems of simultaneous equations that are the bread and butter of virtual work as a tool of engineering and physics.

Juji, as I have begun to understand it, is how aikido teaches to sense (or iinfer) and then to respond to the gyrodynamic rotation/oscillation in human movement. To describe my understanding, the brain/spirit/makoto learns in aikido training to provide resultant inputs to the attacker's joints along the axis of the gyrodynamic resultant, regardless whether "classical" gyrodynamics would seem to apply. The brain can posit a gyro dynamic according to the principle of virtual work. The result is spooky, tricky and very unnerving to the unprepared attacker's kinesthettic sytem, when everything goes wrong and yet he cannot feel exactly why.

The attacker intends his action to act in a single plane to maximize directed energy. If a motion rotates or oscillates it is admissible as a gyrodynamic input evenif it is only one oscillation or a very small rotation -- and the brain can treat it as it as such. By treating the attacking joint/body motion as a virtual gyro, the brain uses the principle of virtual work to create an output that is not a counterattack along or evasion from the incoming vector plane of rotation or oscillation (the more common martial response) but a gyrodynamic displacement of it by entering directly, and turning. The attack and the response in aiki are never in the same plane in a physical sense, as O-Sensei said "In Aikido there is never any attack."

I have not yet touched on the issue of magnitude, but radial ratios should give some idea of the manipulaiton of force amplification or dampening that are possible by such gyrodynamic means.

More sugar for a dime than you probably wanted, but you did ask ...

Erick Mead
09-17-2006, 11:47 PM
If an engineer can't understand that, what hope do we mere mortals have? (Especially ones that failed physics!)
As for the rest, relating different systems of related knowledge is never easy, it requires both perserverance and sensitivity to the perspectives of both, lest something important get lost in translating the "unimportant" that one side may view as surplusage.

davidafindlay
09-18-2006, 03:37 AM
the testerone-competitive monster tends to jump in and starts the "me-bad" dynamic I can see where you're probably coming from, but I reckon the competitive element can be managed, especially if the session isn't "technique" based. I find the main time things get counter-productive is when someone doesn't really get the point of a particular exercise - ie doesn't know what they are training or why they are doing it, and consequently the point is missed. Nothing wrong with being competitive in the right environment, so long as the "proper" rules or principles or whatever are being observed. FWIW I reckon the mindset that is suggested by the term "testosterone-competitive monster" can be seen in any kind of practise (hard or soft), and is only one of a few mindsets that can be detrimental to learning. ...j?ji ( ?? ) is the cross-shape or sign of the cross (for those so inclined). It is a symbol, a physical principle, a template for technique and spiritual basis for contemplation of practice. As kanji, ? juu not only means "cross" and "ten" but also "whole" or "complete." As a symbolic image in Japan, the horizontal symbolizes Earth, and the vertical symbolizes Heaven, i.e. -- tenchi, the union of heaven and earth at the center. Oh. Haven't numerous threads discussed this recently? ie, about aikido being kokyu-based etc? That would then make sense if Ueshiba said his art was "jujido".

It is another means of depicting in-yo with the dynamic elements of the opposed eight powers (bagua) built in. Excuse my ignorance again. Do you have a quick list of the 8 powers you're talking about?

As a physical principle, juji depicts the action of perpendicular component forces. In motion in a linear plane, perpendicular forces resolve to linear diagonal forces in proportion to magnitude of the two components. Judo in contrast focuses on using or creating an offsetting pair of opposed forces (a couple) to initiate rotation. I'd question the generalisation of principles used in judo, but I understand vector forces and couples. I recall Statics 101, and if pushed could probably do a reasonable interpretation of a free-body diagram ;) In an already rotational or vibrational frame, force perpendicular to the rotational or vibrational plane have resulting perpendicular forces that are not linear, because of the inherent angular momentum, the resultant force depends on where along the radius of rotation/vibration the output is taken. Ok, I'm keeping up - but bearing in mind we are only at the stage of talking free-body-diagram, not interaction of people yet. The fact of that momentum also allows the sytem to absorb a great deal of energy withou out readily perceptible change. mmm, not sure about this, but not too worried just now.Juji in aikido presupposes that there is an existing rotational or vibrational energy to receive and gyroscopically transform a single input force into perpendicular output at a variable scale of radial amplification. That vibration or energy is ki no kokyu, or if you prefer the technical description, the physical application of the principle of virtual work on an instantaneously and infintesimally rotating body (at each joint rotational articualtion in turn and ultlimately at the collective rotational center of mass (tanden). Sorry, this is getting a little quasi-technical now... I think I'm beginning to get lost. BTW - "Virtual work"?

As a template for technique, heaven and earth are joined statically by their intersection at the center, and thus the center is arrived at by moving directly along the line. The conduit for kokyu tanden is established by feeling of that angle "lock" where the components of force are all cancelled in one dimension, leaving a complete freedom of movement there.Is this saying that its likely uke is only manifesting their force in 2 directions (eg x&y), leaving the third (z) "unguarded" and available for manipulation ("complete freedom of movement")? If so, what happens if direction z isn't where tori wants to put their power? Sounds a bit simplistic to me - maybe I've reduced it too far...

The vertical dimension and the horizontal dimension of the figure are also joined dynamically by the fact that one becomes the other by simple rotation. Thus, the center is arrived at by spiral motion. The proof is left as an exercise for the class ... Mmm. Bit lost here. :(

As a spiritual contemplation, well, here you go:
O-Sensei wrote:
The spiritual essence
of heaven and earth
congeals as the source of our Path.
The peace and happiness of the world
is linked to Heaven's Floating Bridge. Ah! (ironically?) this makes a lot more sense from a purely technical perspective, after having done a even only just a bit of reading and exploration recently.

But anyway, the description of juji was originally at my request to the statement of:Prompting connection is aiki -- but provoking resistance is not aiki. The difference is in the application of juji +. A fine line perhaps, but a definite line neverthelessBased at what I'm guessing Ueshiba's "juji" is from the above doka, I'm guessing its kinda irrelevant whether we have made "just" connection or crossed over into "resistance". By the manifest of *juji* (insert you preferred term here, harvested from a couple of recent threads), then tori should be able to control their partner.

I'm half-thinking I may now be talking cross-purposes, but anyhow: By saying that when working with resistance, if it gets too much, then its "just resistance, not connection" I get the impression that the focus moves from the connection bit into the technique bit. eg "My technique didn't work because you resisted (my technique) too much". This kind of analysis risks glossing over the aspect of how to actually deal with resistance, and what it can tell you about a partner's energy/force/etc, and instead rushes into the "technique" side of things, which IMHO can be a road with many dead ends.

These are just thoughts of mine, in progress, btw. :)

Regards,
Dave.

davidafindlay
09-18-2006, 04:47 AM
Sorry, this is getting a little quasi-technical now... I think I'm beginning to get lost. BTW - "Virtual work"?Sorry, just read your post above - I must not have refreshed my window from the other day or something. I don't follow the details particularly well, but I'm not looking for a formal proof. :)

Can you define the bagua you were mentioning earlier?

Regards,
Dave

Mike Sigman
09-18-2006, 06:51 AM
((snip general musings))
Juji, as I have begun to understand it, is how aikido teaches to sense (or iinfer) and then to respond to the gyrodynamic rotation/oscillation in human movement. To describe my understanding, the brain/spirit/makoto learns in aikido training to provide resultant inputs to the attacker's joints along the axis of the gyrodynamic resultant, regardless whether "classical" gyrodynamics would seem to apply. The brain can posit a gyro dynamic according to the principle of virtual work. The result is spooky, tricky and very unnerving to the unprepared attacker's kinesthettic sytem, when everything goes wrong and yet he cannot feel exactly why.

The attacker intends his action to act in a single plane to maximize directed energy. If a motion rotates or oscillates it is admissible as a gyrodynamic input evenif it is only one oscillation or a very small rotation -- and the brain can treat it as it as such. By treating the attacking joint/body motion as a virtual gyro, the brain uses the principle of virtual work to create an output that is not a counterattack along or evasion from the incoming vector plane of rotation or oscillation (the more common martial response) but a gyrodynamic displacement of it by entering directly, and turning. The attack and the response in aiki are never in the same plane in a physical sense, as O-Sensei said "In Aikido there is never any attack."

I have not yet touched on the issue of magnitude, but radial ratios should give some idea of the manipulaiton of force amplification or dampening that are possible by such gyrodynamic means. Hi Erick:

How about applying your analysis to simply lifting your arm "using the hara"? Wouldn't that be a better practical start? Or Tohei's "ki tests"? And of course, ultimately you're left with that ideal of "stillness in motion"... i.e., the movements of articulated joints around axes is not the question anymore... to analyse. It appears to me that you're trying to apply a mechanical analysis to a strategy, at the moment, and I'm not sure a method of movement is itself the stratagy or tactic.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

More sugar for a dime than you probably wanted, but you did ask ...[/QUOTE]

Erick Mead
09-18-2006, 07:52 AM
I find the main time things get counter-productive is when someone doesn't really get the point of a particular exercise - ie doesn't know what they are training or why they are doing it, and consequently the point is missed. Frustration is a delicate thing. Too much and the receptivity shuts down and the mind/body reverts to established paths; too little, and the learning parts of the body/mind don't pay enough attention, and are not challenged enough to alter those paths.
Oh. Haven't numerous threads discussed this recently? ie, about aikido being kokyu-based etc? That would then make sense if Ueshiba said his art was "jujido". NOT "judo" no ju 柔 but "juji" 十字 no ju 十. If that is what you meant; I try to use kanji to differentiate where necessary.
Excuse my ignorance again. Do you have a quick list of the 8 powers you're talking about? Expansion-Contraction; Unification-Division; Motion-Stillness; Solidification-Fluidity. Hachiriki of the "Ichirei-shikon, sangen-hachiriki" formulation. Re your other question about "Ba-gua" ("eight trigrams") in a later post -- hachiriki is a Japanese view of the same essential system as Chinese "Bagua" which represent the eight evolutionary principles or basis for "changes" of the yin-yang, or in-yo dynamic along various axes or sprectra. The interaction of them altogether is the 8 x 8 = 64 figure system of the I Ching. The basic trigram element of the bagua maps onto the sangen-hachiriki (three origins - eight powers) formulation.
I'd question the generalisation of principles used in judo, but I understand vector forces and couples. I recall Statics 101, and if pushed could probably do a reasonable interpretation of a free-body diagram ;) Ok, I'm keeping up - but bearing in mind we are only at the stage of talking free-body-diagram, not interaction of people yet.mmm, not sure about this, but not too worried just now. Sorry, this is getting a little quasi-technical now... I think I'm beginning to get lost. There is a judo maxim that says "When pulled-push; when pushed-pull." O-Sensei addressed this as to aikido by saying (I cannot attribute at the moment, so bear with me) -- "When pulled - enter; when pushed - turn."
BTW - "Virtual work"? There is separate post that expanded on the role of this, as I see it.
Is this saying that its likely uke is only manifesting their force in 2 directions (eg x&y), leaving the third (z) "unguarded" and available for manipulation ("complete freedom of movement")? If so, what happens if direction z isn't where tori wants to put their power? Sounds a bit simplistic to me - maybe I've reduced it too far... Not exactly. It is more fundamental than that. To attack with maximum force (and why would one attack with less than that, pray tell?) requires planar motion. By doing so it both creates a gyrodynamic situation of rotation/oscillation, and the fundamental aspect of gyrodynamics is that the plane of force formed by the attacking vector and the axis of rotation (say, the x-y plane) is not the plane of the resultant vector once they interact, which depending on orientation of the chosen response may be in either the y-z or x-z planes. merely shifting to an angeld attack does nto change anything it simply establishes a re-oriented coordinate system but precisely the same dynamic -- at a slight skew to an observer with a ground-normal reference.

To deal with this suki, this opening -- one simply cannot attack. If you attack <<here>> you are already defeated <<there>>. If you attack -- you open this door that you have no means of closing because your energy is committed to a plane (x-y, y-z, or x-z) where the aikidoka is not fighting. Which is what Aikido emphasizes. It is not something one can "guard" (unless one alters the local physical constants, which I do not think any one claims that aikido does... Well, may be some do -- but there are people who believe anything.)
The vertical dimension and the horizontal dimension of the figure are also joined dynamically by the fact that one becomes the other by simple rotation. Thus, the center is arrived at by spiral motion. The proof is left as an exercise for the class ... Mmm. Bit lost here. :( That is to say that irimi and tenkan are really the same thing when seen from a gyrodynamc perspective. This is represented by the juji + figure in light our shifting frames of reference by gyrodynamic manipulations. The cross is self-similar because it is identical at all scales of view ( i.e.- the direct-entering dimension - or range from center.) and self- similar in rotation becasue it is identical at 90 degree increments of rotation (i.e. the tenkan dimension.) the simultaneous action of both aspects of juji is the spiral.
But anyway, the description of juji was originally at my request to the statement of:Based at what I'm guessing Ueshiba's "juji" is from the above doka, I'm guessing its kinda irrelevant whether we have made "just" connection or crossed over into "resistance". By the manifest of *juji* (insert you preferred term here, harvested from a couple of recent threads), then tori should be able to control their partner. Properly performed -- in application, nage-waza results in the disappearance of force from uke's perspective -- in uke-waza the same thing occurs, thus enabling kaeshi-waza. In training, the trick is to have enough connection/ force for uke and nage each to see WHERE the other is disappearing to -- if that makes some sense? An vector that becomes infinitesimal in magnitude still retains orientation.
This kind of analysis risks glossing over the aspect of how to actually deal with resistance, and what it can tell you about a partner's energy/force/etc, and instead rushes into the "technique" side of things, which IMHO can be a road with many dead ends. Full agreement there.
These are just thoughts of mine, in progress, btw. :) Likewise. If cared too much about possibly stumbling and tumbling in front of others, I would hardly be practicing aikido ... That is one of the real intellectual benefits of an rigorous forum on aiki principles (as topic and as the framing dynamic of that discussion).

Robert Rumpf
09-18-2006, 07:59 AM
As a physical principle, juji depicts the action of perpendicular component forces. In motion in a linear plane, perpendicular forces resolve to linear diagonal forces in proportion to magnitude of the two components. Judo in contrast focuses on using or creating an offsetting pair of opposed forces (a couple) to initiate rotation. In an already rotational or vibrational frame, force perpendicular to the rotational or vibrational plane have resulting perpendicular forces that are not linear, because of the inherent angular momentum, the resultant force depends on where along the radius of rotation/vibration the output is taken. The fact of that momentum also allows the sytem to absorb a great deal of energy withou out readily perceptible change.

Similar to the application of topspin or backspin (http://www.unc.edu/~sheng1/spin.htm) in tennis.

Another analogy, is, I suppose the result of what you get when you hit a ball with "english (http://www.easypooltutor.com/article63.html)" on it in pool into another ball.

Rob

Mike Sigman
09-18-2006, 08:22 AM
Expansion-Contraction; Unification-Division; Motion-Stillness; Solidification-Fluidity.


Maybe the "powers" would be easier to understand if you translated them in the more commonly understood terms, Erick:

Contraction-Extension
Powerful-Relaxed
Motion-Stillness
Hard-Soft


I understand that you're trying to develop some over-arching theory, but I still don't see what it is. Sorry.

FWIW

Mike

Erick Mead
09-18-2006, 09:01 AM
How about applying your analysis to simply lifting your arm "using the hara"? I always lift my arm using the hara, and so do you and so does everyone else. The arm rotating against gravity creates rotational moment against the body, which I instinctively counter with a nearly instantaneous and imperceptible shift of my center to make it do work. Hence, my thoughts about the method of virtual work.

Conversely, if I apply my center motion first, in the same axis I can make my arm rise by the application of the reverse rotational moment, and without any use of the arm muscles except as connecting ligaments or springs. This is basic torifune (rowing) exercise. What I am saying is that aikido is merely the development of that basic function to more refined and precise ends, and made capable of intuitive adaptation.

Wouldn't that be a better practical start? Or Tohei's "ki tests"?
Wouldn't know, among the few aikido flavors I have never tried is Ki Society.

And of course, ultimately you're left with that ideal of "stillness in motion"... i.e., the movements of articulated joints around axes is not the question anymore... to analyse. A vector without magnitude (or infinitesimal magnitude, or even mere potential) still has orientation that describes the force system or field in play. An electromagnetic field is clearly oriented and perceptible even if there is zero magnitude of current flow. If my body and mind become capable of inferring an infintesimally small magnitude along the vector field, that is enough, according to the method of virtual work, to decipher the force system and resultant, and work can be applied in accordance with that information, in a plane that the attacker is incapable of resisting directly, and because he perceives no direct resistance to the attack, the information that the attacker's system is set up to signal a need alter or shift his attack is not present.

One of the reasons, it seems to me that aikido is so effective is that it relies on a fundamental retraining of the body and mind in ways that cannot be easily short-circuited for purposes of adapting by a attacker who is not similarly trained. BY analogy it is, in effect, much like a rewiring that creates AI architecture, than a defined function software patch; a modifcation to the operating system, if you will.
It appears to me that you're trying to apply a mechanical analysis to a strategy, at the moment, and I'm not sure a method of movement is itself the stratagy or tactic. I am suggesting that aikido is beyond strategy and tactic, as it is beyond timing. Although effective in practice, as the economists say, it nevertheless is not possible in theory. Obviously, the problem lies with the theory.

Aikido is as much an information processing system as it is a strategic or tactical catalogue of physical techniques. It seems to be inadequately described by more conventional terms of mechnical understanding. Terms describing information systems generally also seem to breakdown in applcaition to aikido practice becasue of its ephemeral nature.

Aikido is almost unique in comparison to any other art on these two grounds, and distinguished very much from even its own lineage in Daito-ryu, primarily because of the innovative aspects of takemusu (creative technique) and ki musubi (connecting energy) (Taijiquan being a very possible and strong exception to this statement.) Thus, I am reaching for different approaches to the understanding of what it accomplishes to broaden the applicaiton of Western sensibilities to its refinement and expansion.

All of O-Sensei's imagery must be considered in its context, as the man was a very serious person. Tohaeis Four Principles are useful, too, but likewise are out of context in the West and thus require serious conceptual translation, not merely lanugage transcription. Despite the too-easy denigration of his mythological views by some from a Western reductionist perpective, they are part of a system of vital cultural information and he seriously intended that they impart that information within that tradition.

I take him as seriously as he meant to be taken. He seriously meant aikido to have the broadest possible reach and penetration around the world. It has gone far in the mode of people willing to adopt and invest themselves in its native context. It can go farther however, by truly "going native" in the West. We now inform the context of most of the world, for better or worse. The first step is to thoroughly understand the native concepts without reducing their their fullness to the contraints of our frames of reference. Then we can relate them to useful analogues in the Western tradition that provide a bsis for furtehr developemtn WITHIN our tradition. That way, we can begin to add their distinctivness to our own ...

( :D Somebody PLEASE pick that one up ...)

Erick Mead
09-18-2006, 09:16 AM
Maybe the "powers" would be easier to understand if you translated them in the more commonly understood terms, Erick:

Contraction-Extension
Powerful-Relaxed
Motion-Stillness
Hard-Soft
Potayto, potahto. You got it. I have seen about four or five different expressions of those four pair in English. Nevermind the other Western tongues. If we wanted to avoid any native variations in connotation we wopuld simply use the original Japanese, no wait -- it was Chinese, no wait ... You see the regression problem, I am sure.

None of them seems any better (or worse) suited to comprehensibility, apart from their reference to some established scheme of reference or nomenclature. The problem is that for people not prepared to invest themselves in that background data the terms are something like distguishing -- florch, trept and gissit. Nonsense syllables that merely become names for non-verbal concepts.

Nomenclature is part of the point I am trying to step behind. Aircraft fly the same in Chinese or Japanese as in English. We often make (justifiable) fun of "Engrish" -- attempts at such transliteration of English by the Japanese (See a classic Zen-like example here:

http://www.engrish.com/image/engrish/companion-mind.jpg]

But we certainly risk doing no better by sticking to their terminology as mere labels in trying to teach our students, who may then make the same types of errors in application.

There must be a better way to digest this in native terms. We are very big on "better ways" in the Western tradition. There is a lot of math and thinking on things like gyrodynamics and other methods of analysis or physical analogy that may apply. For instance the math applicable to torque conversions in gyrodynamics is very much related to the math for electromagnetic fields and currents. This kind of analogue principle approach is very much the mainstay of Western tehcnical development

Erick Mead
09-18-2006, 09:34 AM
Similar to the application of topspin or backspin (http://www.unc.edu/~sheng1/spin.htm) in tennis.
Another analogy, is, I suppose the result of what you get when you hit a ball with "english (http://www.easypooltutor.com/article63.html)" on it in pool into another ball. Bingo. The only difference is that (true to the motion in stillness ideal), nage/tori's motion in existing "spin" may be virtual, but uke's perception is the same. The active dampening/amplification and axis conversion of his applied force/torque at contact with tori/nage in proper ki musubi relationship and the expression of kokyu in proper technique is precisely the same in gyroscopic terms as if there were actual spin or oscillation.

That is the working theory, anyway. It fits well with the common training rubric of "think big -- act small" in terms of the movements being applied as traingn becomes more refined. Progressively one translates less and less actual movement into more and more of its virtual neuro-muscular counterpart (which I would hazard at analogizing as the measure of "kokyu power"). Certainly, this give a non-spooky basis to observe the pushing contrests O-Sensei would demonstrate with several uke or with an uke having him in obvious(?) mechanically disadvantageous position, if considered only statically.

The Segway works on this principle also, using various vibrational piezoelectric gyroscopes, as do modern "fly-by-wire" fighters, FWIW.

Mike Sigman
09-18-2006, 09:45 AM
I always lift my arm using the hara, and so do you and so does everyone else. The arm rotating against gravity creates rotational moment against the body, which I instinctively counter with a nearly instantaneous and imperceptible shift of my center to make it do work. Hence, my thoughts about the method of virtual work. The problem with this approach, in my opinion, is that you are not making any distinction related to "sinking the qi". If the force origins, which you neglect to mention, are the same for all movements in your mechanical schema, then I think you're missing the essence of what is actually happening. I guess what I'm saying is that this is a fairly complex and radically different system of movement and you're not saying anything that meaningfully differentiates it from normal movement.

Generally speaking, someone lifting their arm uses mechanical attachment and forces based from the shoulder joint. Of course, it goes without saying that the shoulder is not totally isolated from the hara, so there are pulleys and levers, etc., working in conjunction with the muscles of the middle and lower back, etc., etc. However using exactly the same setup of connections, pulleys, and levers, but sourcing the arm-lift as an upward push from the locus of the "hara" gives radically different values in the operation of the connections, pulleys, and levers... if you see what I mean. Then, and worse yet, if you introduce a "connection" that works to connect the apparatus in a way it was not connected before (i.e., an extraneous variable), it's simply a different way of movement entirely, regardless of any discussion about gyro-dynamics, joints around an axis, etc.

And actually, what I just said is basically what happens. Your point about gyrodynamics is an attempt to explain a phenomenon of strategy and it's not a bad attempt, but I think it misses something essential by not taking into account the factors that I mentioned. ;) A vector without magnitude (or infinitesimal magnitude, or even mere potential) still has orientation that describes the force system or field in play. An electromagnetic field is clearly oriented and perceptible even if there is zero magnitude of current flow. Let me know when you measure a zero-force vector or a non-electron-flow emf so that we know in reality, not in theory, what the direction/orientation is. :)

In reality, there is no such thing a "stillness in motion" that doesn't use forces, Erick.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
09-18-2006, 09:50 AM
Potayto, potahto. You got it. I have seen about four or five different expressions of those four pair in English. Nevermind the other Western tongues. Well, these basic principles are easy to show; the semantics would be a useless quibble.

Those 8 powers relate to the essential jin, the core jin, the "nei jin", the "peng jin", the jin that is the basis of kokyu, the "ki power".... whatever you want to call it. It is the jin/qi referred to by the comments about man being on the bridge between Heaven and Earth. Pretty easy to show. :cool:

Incidentally.... we're beginning to head back toward the thread topic. :circle:

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
09-18-2006, 10:38 AM
Let me know when you measure a zero-force vector or a non-electron-flow emf so that we know in reality, not in theory, what the direction/orientation is. :) Eek... I wasn't thinking the emf thing through entirely... although I don't think my omission has much of an impact on what Erick was trying to say.

Mike

dps
09-18-2006, 12:24 PM
I take him as seriously as he meant to be taken. He seriously meant aikido to have the broadest possible reach and penetration around the world. It has gone far in the mode of people willing to adopt and invest themselves in its native context. It can go farther however, by truly "going native" in the West. We now inform the context of most of the world, for better or worse. The first step is to thoroughly understand the native concepts without reducing their their fullness to the contraints of our frames of reference. Then we can relate them to useful analogues in the Western tradition that provide a bsis for furtehr developemtn WITHIN our tradition. That way, we can begin to add their distinctivness to our own ... I would rephrase that to say " that way, we can begin to add our distinctiveness to theirs..." Like the way Buddhism is adapted by different cultures to produce Chinese Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, Japanese Buddhism, American Buddhism. The different cultures adapt the understanding of Buddhism to make it distinct without losing the basic principals of the original Indian Buddhism.

Erick Mead
09-18-2006, 01:20 PM
The problem with this approach, in my opinion, is that you are not making any distinction related to "sinking the qi". If the force origins, which you neglect to mention, are the same for all movements in your mechanical schema, then I think you're missing the essence of what is actually happening. I guess what I'm saying is that this is a fairly complex and radically different system of movement and you're not saying anything that meaningfully differentiates it from normal movement.

Generally speaking, someone lifting their arm uses mechanical attachment and forces based from the shoulder joint. Of course, it goes without saying that the shoulder is not totally isolated from the hara, so there are pulleys and levers, etc., working in conjunction with the muscles of the middle and lower back, etc., etc. However using exactly the same setup of connections, pulleys, and levers, but sourcing the arm-lift as an upward push from the locus of the "hara" gives radically different values in the operation of the connections, pulleys, and levers... if you see what I mean. Then, and worse yet, if you introduce a "connection" that works to connect the apparatus in a way it was not connected before (i.e., an extraneous variable), it's simply a different way of movement entirely, regardless of any discussion about gyro-dynamics, joints around an axis, etc.

And actually, what I just said is basically what happens. Your point about gyrodynamics is an attempt to explain a phenomenon of strategy and it's not a bad attempt, but I think it misses something essential by not taking into account the factors that I mentioned. ;)

[quote= Mike Sigman) Let me know when you measure a zero-force vector or a non-electron-flow emf so that we know in reality, not in theory, what the direction/orientation is.

In reality, there is no such thing a "stillness in motion" that doesn't use forces, Erick. I was actually trying to keep this at a more basic level without distinguishing between potential vector fields, electrical current, magnetic flux and photons and electrons in electromagnetic interaction. But your challenge presents a further opportunity to demonstrate analogies of axis and energy conversion principles at issue. I will attempt to meet it head on, but only for those interested -- so find it here on the AikiWEBLOG: "But Why?" that I started just for this-here purpose:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/journal.php?do=showjournal&j=7086

Electric current and magnetic flux are mutually dependent, orthogonal in relationship, and the result of collapse of a vector potential field (virtual) into current or flux (actual). The point I am making about axis and energy conversion and virtual work as a model to see the action of takemusu aiki, holds as true for the given analogue as does the right hand rule hold true for both gyros and field/currents.

In aikido, the analogue is the connection (ki musubi), which harmonizes tori/nage to uke's state at contact and allows the creation at that moment (takemusu aiki) of appropriate technique based on the detected orientation. The connection does not disturb the attack, but joins with it in order to establish orientation, which then leads to a technique appropriate to that flow, and out of phase with the plane of attack.

Only at this moment of connection is anything like "strategy" in existence, much less "tactic." And even then, the only "strategy" is to let the state of forces at play define the action to be accomplished. Chinese would describe this as following "li" 理 the principle of the grain of wood, which shaped itself to the forces under which it grew.

For students who do not yet grasp it from the inside at a cerebellar (balance center) level we have to "set up" defined interactions in bite-size quantities. This allows students to feel aspects of the right interaction in a regular manner.

We train to show aspects of ki musubi and takemusu aiki to our students. However, letting ki musubi and takemusu aiki show themselves is what we are really training for.

The more I look for it, the more I find applications of the concept of "juji" in this interaction between attack and technique. The more I see it, the more the examples that I see conform to my understanding of axis and energy conversison demonstrated by field laws and gyrodynamics.

Try thinking about the right hand rule when working through some techniques. That is my most practical result for useful training from this exploration so far. Maybe it will reveal more as I go on.

Erick Mead
09-18-2006, 01:33 PM
llness to the contraints of our frames of reference. Then we can relate them to useful analogues in the Western tradition that provide a bsis for furtehr developemtn WITHIN our tradition. That way, we can begin to add their distinctivness to our own ... I would rephrase that to say " that way, we can begin to add our distinctiveness to theirs..." Like the way Buddhism is adapted by different cultures to produce Chinese Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, Japanese Buddhism, American Buddhism. The different cultures adapt the understanding of Buddhism to make it distinct without losing the basic principals of the original Indian Buddhism. Obviously, NOBODY got the Borg reference. Are all the real geeks truly dead?

"RESISTANCE IS FUTILE ..."

Mike Sigman
09-18-2006, 01:38 PM
Electric current and magnetic flux are mutually dependent, orthogonal in relationship, and the result of collapse of a vector potential field (virtual) into current or flux (actual). The point I am making about axis and energy conversion and virtual work as a model to see the action of takemusu aiki, holds as true for the given analogue as does the right hand rule hold true for both gyros and field/currents. That's fine, as far as 2 independent observations go, but you haven't established any relationship. I'm assuming this is just unsupported theory, then? I.e., "one is like the other, in my opinion", etc.?

In aikido, the analogue is the connection (ki musubi), which harmonizes tori/nage to uke's state at contact and allows the creation at that moment (takemusu aiki) of appropriate technique based on the detected orientation. "Allows"??? "Allows" is nice, but how does it work? Spontaneously? As an act of God? Etc. I.e., how does it work? The connection does not disturb the attack, but joins with it in order to establish orientation, which then leads to a technique appropriate to that flow, and out of phase with the plane of attack. It sounds very much like you're looking at a "learned skill" and somehow saying that it "happens because of physical laws". Or am I misreading you?Only at this moment of connection is anything like "strategy" in existence, much less "tactic." And even then, the only "strategy" is to let the state of forces at play define the action to be accomplished. The forces control what happens, Erick? You don't think there is some decision-making (i.e., "strategy") involved in what happens? ;)

Erick Mead
09-18-2006, 02:37 PM
Electric current and magnetic flux are mutually dependent, orthogonal in relationship, and the result of collapse of a vector potential field (virtual) into current or flux (actual). The point I am making about axis and energy conversion and virtual work as a model to see the action of takemusu aiki, holds as true for the given analogue as does the right hand rule hold true for both gyros and field/currents.
That's fine, as far as 2 independent observations go, but you haven't established any relationship. I'm assuming this is just unsupported theory, then? I.e., "one is like the other, in my opinion", etc.? No, it is not mere opinion, but supported observation. I observe the right hand rule applying in many techniques, ikkyo particularly. It is speculative how closely the analogue holds, which is why I am still exploring it.
In aikido, the analogue is the connection (ki musubi), which harmonizes tori/nage to uke's state at contact and allows the creation at that moment (takemusu aiki) of appropriate technique based on the detected orientation. "Allows"??? "Allows" is nice, but how does it work? Spontaneously? As an act of God? Etc. I.e., how does it work? Degrees of freedom. My elbow allows radial motion in one plane and torsion around its longitudinal axis about another -- two degrees of freedom. Anything that impinges force upon me constrains my freedom in some dimension. The more closely I comprehend the mix of forces applied the more I can constrain my response in the most efficient channels. The fact of planar motion in gyrodynamic terms leaves me an entire separate axis in which to act, but within that axis there are still relative degrees of efficiency in converting his energy to work. Following those lines of least effort lead one to techniques defined by the circumstances of the moment. Like surfing the breaking wave, you turn when you can, or as you get better at it, you only turn when you must -- so as to leave no remaining energy along that line of travel unused.

Do you want a form book? There isn't any. There are key principles to obey illustrated in training techniques, mainly irimi-tenkan. There are sensations of opening to be felt and followed with connection. There are critical qualites of connection to learn to feel in ki musubi, the means of connected movement in kokyu tanden ho, and connected articulation in the form of juji. These openings, pusued with these qualities lead to appropriate technique and variations on technique by choosing to follow them wherever they lead. My strategy in aiki is not not to force technique, but to lie in wait for it to appear and then follow it, no matter where it goes. The prey's mistake is to show himself to the hunter -- after that it is just chasing it to ground. It is our evolutionary specialty, if the scientists are to be believed.
The connection does not disturb the attack, but joins with it in order to establish orientation, which then leads to a technique appropriate to that flow, and out of phase with the plane of attack. It sounds very much like you're looking at a "learned skill" and somehow saying that it "happens because of physical laws". Or am I misreading you? Who said it was a not a learned skill? Surfing a wave requires one to conform closely to the very large forces at play, but it is highly skilled behavior, nonetheless, in doing precisely that. Of course, I could "conform" with the wave by getting the break dropped on my head, but where's the art in that? Any durn fool can get himself caught inside. Most do, in fact.

Only at this moment of connection is anything like "strategy" in existence, much less "tactic." And even then, the only "strategy" is to let the state of forces at play define the action to be accomplished.
The forces control what happens, Erick? You don't think there is some decision-making (i.e., "strategy") involved in what happens? I said "define" not "control." Once the conditions are defined by the connection, one or several actions may feel apropriate, in varying degree. The refinement of my training is in intuitively picking the one most suited to the occasion. A number will work within limits, but the more I have to choose -- the poorer my reliance is on ki musubi and takemusu as opposed to formulaic technique. That is the definition of grace in action after all. It really is more like surfing -- all I want as a strategy is a good ride. And no, I do not think there is any decision-making at the point of action in proper takemusu aiki technique. The decision-making comes in practice, and more practice, and in forums like this where we decide to choose and to reinforce the response of aiki to begin with. That is, in fact, the chief power of the art, as I see it.

eyrie
09-18-2006, 05:02 PM
I'm afraid you've lost me Erick.... all except the Borg Queen reference - sorry for not replying earlier - I was...um... doing the regeneration cycle thingie.... :)

If I'm getting the gist of this, my understanding of what you're basically saying is along the lines of what Rob has been saying all along - re: the cross in Akuzawa's form of body axis training. However, my difficulty is in understanding how/why gyrodynamics is involved - I'm getting dizzy spinning in opposing directions trying to imagine how it even relates to weight transfer... :p

Erick Mead
09-18-2006, 07:35 PM
I'm afraid you've lost me Erick.... all except the Borg Queen reference - sorry for not replying earlier - I was...um... doing the regeneration cycle thingie.... :) That's all right -- you WILL be assimilated ... :p

If I'm getting the gist of this, my understanding of what you're basically saying is along the lines of what Rob has been saying all along - re: the cross in Akuzawa's form of body axis training. However, my difficulty is in understanding how/why gyrodynamics is involved - I'm getting dizzy spinning in opposing directions trying to imagine how it even relates to weight transfer... :p I can't speak to Akuzsawa having no familiarity. The example Mike asked for "moving from hara" I gave with the raising of the arm. Consider instead the shift of body weight that started this thread. The body is a column that buckles in the middle. Weight shift is integral to balance -- along the line of the four legged stool with the two legs missing. It is an imperfect image hoever, because the tops and bottoms of legs of the stool are limited universal joints. Statically the whole apparatus should just teeter over to the side.

The thing that keeps us upright is a miniscule gyroscopic sway of the hips in a chaotic figure eight pattern that dampens the toppling sway caused by gravity.

We are always swaying between falling one way or the other. Irimi, done properly is simply arranging the sway to will that fall in the right direction to move laterally. Tenkan is willing the fall with a turn of the hips -- allowing the natural turn of the hips for balance to have its head and reorient in response to applied force.

Kokyu tanden ho allows the manipulation of the rotating/oscillating hip sway and thus affecting the opponent's weight distribution and transfer. In katate-dori I usually sense two forces - 1) an inward push and 2) an upward or downward rotation forming a plane of action. Whether it is upward or downward the plane is the same. My simultaneous response is a 1) lateral shift of the hip and arm, either opening outward or cutting inward, and 2) a torque of the arm and hip in a right or left spiral.

Which one is not really important -- the resulting plane of action is the same. This converts the motion of the forward translation and up/down rotation vertical/forward plane forming the attack -- into a phase-shifted rotation/translation in the lateral/vertical plane. It results in kuzushi because the shift of the attacking rotation into another plane is now out of phase with the balance sway system and thus almost immediately overruns its support into shikaku (one of the two missing legs of the stool).

dps
09-18-2006, 07:45 PM
Obviously, NOBODY got the Borg reference. Are all the real geeks truly dead?

"RESISTANCE IS FUTILE ..."

Wasn't the Borg quoting Buddha?

Mike Sigman
09-18-2006, 07:51 PM
Consider instead the shift of body weight that started this thread. The body is a column that buckles in the middle. Weight shift is integral to balance -- along the line of the four legged stool with the two legs missing. It is an imperfect image hoever, because the tops and bottoms of legs of the stool are limited universal joints. Statically the whole apparatus should just teeter over to the side.

The thing that keeps us upright is a miniscule gyroscopic sway of the hips in a chaotic figure eight pattern that dampens the toppling sway caused by gravity.

We are always swaying between falling one way or the other. Irimi, done properly is simply arranging the sway to will that fall in the right direction to move laterally. Tenkan is willing the fall with a turn of the hips -- allowing the natural turn of the hips for balance to have its head and reorient in response to applied force.

Kokyu tanden ho allows the manipulation of the rotating/oscillating hip sway and thus affecting the opponent's weight distribution and transfer. In katate-dori I usually sense two forces - 1) an inward push and 2) an upward or downward rotation forming a plane of action. Whether it is upward or downward the plane is the same. My simultaneous response is a 1) lateral shift of the hip and arm, either opening outward or cutting inward, and 2) a torque of the arm and hip in a right or left spiral.

Which one is not really important -- the resulting plane of action is the same. This converts the motion of the forward translation and up/down rotation vertical/forward plane forming the attack -- into a phase-shifted rotation/translation in the lateral/vertical plane. It results in kuzushi because the shift of the attacking rotation into another plane is now out of phase with the balance sway system and thus almost immediately overruns its support into shikaku (one of the two missing legs of the stool).It's an interesting theory, Erick. I think it's off the mark of the practical forces behind "kokyu", etc., but to each his own. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Erick Mead
09-18-2006, 07:51 PM
Wasn't the Borg quoting Buddha? Sorta kinda. Actually, I think the Buddha was more in line with "RESISTANCE IS PAINFUL.."
I am ALL over that.

dps
09-18-2006, 07:55 PM
Or resistance is suffering.

Gernot Hassenpflug
09-18-2006, 08:29 PM
Hello Erick, I enjoyed your exposition a lot. In particular, cutting analysis by engineers is something that martial arts requires for understanding, and also for teaching. I am sure that your explanation is not the most basic part of martial arts, but it does touch on a part of it, namely the dynamic part of stillness. In Akuzawa's exercises, that would correspond to a continual interplay between the forces maintaining the 3-dimensions of axes. Where I think you're going into "strategy" is in your emphasis on visible external movements. I think your explanation is pretty good and applicable, I just think the underlying strength that enables you to accomplish this, and methods to train this, are vital to be able to do this against other trained persons, and are at the root of the OP's pointed question. Your point about the "chaotic figure of eight" illustrates that dillemma. How can we control that precisely, how can we train that more strongly and use it's power less randomly? In other words, the internal mechamics of movement over the external ones.

Regards, Gernot

Erick Mead
09-18-2006, 08:30 PM
It's an interesting theory, Erick. I think it's off the mark of the practical forces behind "kokyu", etc., but to each his own. ;) Not a bit of theory in that last. ALL fact. Direct demonstration of the right hand rule, too. I am fairly detailed in my premises on theory in the other posts, and they are open to any attack or rebuttal you care to make. If you choose to say "No, I don't think so" it is your privilege, But, please be so kind as to supply us with your thoughts to substitute in consideration.

I have attempted to meet directly and in detail all the questions asked of me in this discussion, and I am open to more. You apparently have no more quesitons of me on this point and have reached a judgment. Please tell us what that conclusions frame your judgment and on what determinations or assumptions those conclusions were based.

Please favor us with a similarly detailed version of your understanding of the practical forces underlying "kokyu." Your response indicates distinct scepticism as to kokyu as a useful working concept. Fair enough -- detail a better set of alternative premises that we can judge on their own merits. Rebuttal to demonstrate a different case will advance the discussion far more than unsupported denial based on unspecified opinion.

eyrie
09-18-2006, 09:08 PM
...The body is a column that buckles in the middle. Weight shift is integral to balance -- along the line of the four legged stool with the two legs missing. It is an imperfect image hoever, because the tops and bottoms of legs of the stool are limited universal joints. Statically the whole apparatus should just teeter over to the side.

The thing that keeps us upright is a miniscule gyroscopic sway of the hips in a chaotic figure eight pattern that dampens the toppling sway caused by gravity.


Interesting theory.... but last time I checked, autonomic anti-gravity responses were controlled by the vestibular system - not by the rhythmic hypnoptic gyrations of the hips... :P

It doesn't explain how you can topple the entire structure at any of the major articulation points - foot, knee, hip, shoulder, elbow, wrist, head/neck - without "buckling the middle" - which may be the result of an autonomic anti-gravity response to maintain semi-upright equilibrium.

Erick Mead
09-18-2006, 09:31 PM
Your point about the "chaotic figure of eight" illustrates that dillemma. How can we control that precisely, how can we train that more strongly and use it's power less randomly? Control in the sense of dictating what happens in aiki is something I have learned to abandon in favor of control over accepting what happens as given. Masagatsu agatsu. Timing, maai, sente -- go no sen, sen no sen sensen no sen, all of these are useful -- but descriptive, not prescriptive -- they are what happens -- not what is done.

Tenchinage is an example where this gyroscopic issue also can be seen. If I held a spinning bike wheel with its hub axis horizontally in front of me (top edge spinning toward me), and push forward on the right side and pull back on the left side, the wheel's axis tilts toward vertical but neither side comes closer or retreats. This motion of my hands and the sense of expression of kokyu in them is equivalent to tenchinage. The manipulation of partner's center in kokyu tanden ho is similar, just with active intelligence feedback.

Practice refines this exploitation of continuous rotation into the exploitaiton of instantaneous rotation, and then, ultimately, if O-Sensei's and other adept's experience be believed, into virtual rotation. Ain't there yet by a long shot, although I can see it. Still fleshing out the second part. In other words, the internal mechamics of movement over the external ones. I think they are in fact the same. O-Sensei said that there are no secret techniques in aikido -- that it is all there to see. What is hidden then, begins as visible. What begins as external, ends as internal. What begin as continuous ends as instantaneous. What begins as actual ends in virtual. What is big, gets small.

Kokyu tanden ho/kokyu dosa exercise is at the heart of this for me. It is one of the reasons that I would ask skeptics to be more explicit in their skepticism of the operation of kokyu. In the katatedori kokyu ho example I gave, the initiating attack and the ending response share the vertical axis, both planes intersect on the vertical axis which provides the medium for converting from one frame to the other, by entry to the center and rotation about it (irimi tenkan).

By accepting pertubation of my own center I touch more deeply the center that is perturbing it, and by joining it, the resulting action must reflect the product of two wills joined, not one overriding will or two wills in contention. If his will is, say, oriented (x,z) to establiosh a plane of attack, then the first component of my will can be oriented with his in (z), and I am free to impart or alter translation or rotation without resistance by a second component of my will in (y); Alternatively, if I blend with him in (x), the second component of my will is free to act without resistance in (z). Tenkan begins in irimi and irimi ends in tenkan. Tthe attacker's two axis planar motion is converted to a three-axis tumble.

If I am right, there are no shortcuts, just better comprehension by dint of serious study and contemplation of these things.

Erick Mead
09-18-2006, 10:00 PM
Interesting theory.... but last time I checked, autonomic anti-gravity responses were controlled by the vestibular system - not by the rhythmic hypnoptic gyrations of the hips... :P There are (at least) three orientation systems in the body, the vestibular (inner ear), the stereoscopic visiospatial and kinesthetic/propriosensory (how you know where you hand is when it is behind your head). If one of these does not agree with the other two, the negative feedback creates dissonance, which if it cannot be resolved by re-orienting, in many cases results dizziness and even nausea. There are studies showing significant improvement of impaired balance by stochastic resonance amplification (vibration) in the foot soles (below even conscious sensory thresholds). See http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/apr05/1294. That shows the importance of the kinesthetic somatic sense. It also suggest ways in nwhich training can increase the ability to use subsensory inputs -- the spooky stuff -- but equally how seemingly ephemeral the approach to that training may necessarily be. That is why Kokyu tanden ho is so improtant even though it seems often to have no "point" ordirection interms of its place in our trainng for various techniques You are training things you don't readily know about most of the time.
It doesn't explain how you can topple the entire structure at any of the major articulation points - foot, knee, hip, shoulder, elbow, wrist, head/neck - without "buckling the middle" - which may be the result of an autonomic anti-gravity response to maintain semi-upright equilibrium. Lock up the articulation at issue to give good connection to the center (kotegaeshi, nikkyo, sankyo, etc.) -- by denying one arc of the stabilizing sway, the other arc has no countercircuit, but the same energy to dissipate and thus overcompensates -- and over we go.

davidafindlay
09-19-2006, 08:21 AM
Hi Erick et al,

Sorry, kinda feel like its redundant for me to reply to this thread, given the amount of posts that flow by, time differences being what they are, but nevertheless:

NOT "judo" no ju ? but "juji" ?? no ju ?. If that is what you meant; I try to use kanji to differentiate where necessary.Yeah, no, I meant “jujido”, not “judo”. After reading the doka it sounded much like Ueshiba’s point was aikido comes from juji – I took the doka to mean making sure you have a properly conditioned body, understand the basic ways to use the connection to the ground, weight force, proper tensions and consequently energy storage and structure with in the body etc. This sort of thing has been discussed quite a lot recently, and made some sense to me at least, and consequently I thought if Ueshiba was at one time or other wrapping up all those concepts in his “juji”, then yeah, it would make sense for him to call his art “jujido”.Expansion-Contraction; Unification-Division; Motion-Stillness; Solidification-Fluidity. Hachiriki of the "Ichirei-shikon, sangen-hachiriki" formulation.Thanks, and also thanks to Mike for a slightly alternate description:Contraction-Extension
Powerful-Relaxed
Motion-Stillness
Hard-Soft

To deal with this suki, this opening -- one simply cannot attack. If you attack <<here>> you are already defeated <<there>>. If you attack -- you open this door that you have no means of closing because your energy is committed to a plane (x-y, y-z, or x-z) where the aikidoka is not fighting. Which is what Aikido emphasizes. It is not something one can "guard" What I meant by “guard” was to try to make sure your body has potential in each direction (I don’t feel qualified :) to say The Six Directions, but that’s what I mean). By maintaining this potential it seems that you can respond a lot faster and more appropriately, with less time for “thought” (maybe because you’re already “thinking” about it). I’ve recently started to understand a little bit of this, and have tried to put a simple understanding of it into playing sticky hand type stuff. It has improved my defensive sphere immensely. Whether I’m doing it “right” or not I don’t know, but it feels like it has good results.That is to say that irimi and tenkan are really the same thing <snip> the simultaneous action of both aspects of juji is the spiral.I’ll leave that for the moment. If it also means that all movements should follow a principle or set of principles (lets call it juji), then ok.In training, the trick is to have enough connection/ force for uke and nage each to see WHERE the other is disappearing to -- if that makes some sense?Sure.An vector that becomes infinitesimal in magnitude still retains orientation.FWIW, sure.

Regards,
Dave.

Mike Sigman
09-19-2006, 09:56 AM
Please favor us with a similarly detailed version of your understanding of the practical forces underlying "kokyu." Your response indicates distinct scepticism as to kokyu as a useful working concept. Fair enough -- detail a better set of alternative premises that we can judge on their own merits. Rebuttal to demonstrate a different case will advance the discussion far more than unsupported denial based on unspecified opinion.I think I've spent a lot of time laying out pretty detailed explanations and illustrations around the classical idea of "kokyu" forces, Erick... it's all archived. Pretty much everything I've said can be checked against the classical usages and derivations, using the same terminologies, etc., that Ueshiba used. Of course, if you want to argue that Ueshiba used the same terminologies from classical Chinese and used the standard demonstrations of kokyu power, etc., that the Chinese terms/demos used, but he actually derived his forces in another manner (i.e., his Chinese-based stuff was coincidence), I'd be happy to see it.

Insofar as "Your response indicates distinct scepticism as to kokyu as a useful working concept", that's erroneous. If anyone on this forum has promoted kokyu as a working concept, then I have... all I'm saying is that you're laying out a theory from nowhere and asserting its validity but offering no more than opinion to back it up.

The "Ten chi jin" idea is fairly complex and pretty well documented. It pervades all Asian martial arts, as far as I can tell, and the theories and practice are fairly well known in Asian martial arts, even though they're obscured in a lot of western practice of those martial arts. The "Eight Powers" you referred to are about how the core powers/forces of ki/kokyu forces are used/practiced/developed. Your theory of joints and gyro-dynamics isn't needed to explain that at all. But it's an interesting theory; I disagree with it and prefer to stick as close as I can to the classical theory and the practical demonstrations (which include the same demonstrations both Tohei and Ueshiba made). If you'd like to see what I consider a fairly pragmatic description (although still vague, partially due to the translator maybe) of the forces and "aiki", take a look at this old interview from Aikido Journal of Inaba Minoru:

Many people think they cannot use "aiki" technique because they do not have as much strength as their opponent. Then they start weight training. They cannot use "aiki" technique because they cannot judge timing in distance. They form a bad judgment of the situation.
So, what are "timing" and "distance?" We cannot measure these with a clock or ruler. Timing and distance have to be grasped through each person's intuition. If you are nervous or worried about something, this will cloud your intuition. But some tension is necessary.
You need cleansing, or purification (harai) training, as in Shintoism. You have to make your mind clear, like a mirror. There are many different ways to express how to grasp timing. I think when you purify the body and mind, then you can grasp timing.
However, even if you grasp timing, if you don't focus your power or energy you cannot do anything. In the human body the area to focus power is the lower abdomen (kafuku tanden).
Power focused here is defensive power; power going out is offensive power.
How can you put forth offensive power? The first thing you have to do is to focus the power in your center. Offensive power will naturally flow if you focus your power in the center. That is forceful power (iryoku). It is a condition of focused energy that becomes center energy. In budo, people use the terms "bui" or "iryoku", don't they? Most important in martial arts is "iwoharu," showing this powerfully focused energy. It's not good to pretend that you have energy (karaibari). Try to use the energy in the lower abdomen. You can call this energy focused "ki" energy. If you don't have center energy, you are bluffing. Really, you have to develop this energy. The energy will flow naturally if you can focus it in the lower abdomen. If you understand this point, you will understand how to develop your body and mind and how you should train.
If you forget this essential point, you'll think only about winning, and you won't have the power to keep centered. This power won't be released and you will be destroyed.
You do exercises to straighten up your back muscles and relax your shoulders. Drop your focus to your lower abdomen. If you do that, you'll find your center point and you will produce center energy. If your center is not developed, you won't have ki energy available to project through your fingers.
If you take excess energy from the upper body and train the lower body as in sumo wrestling, and if you train the energy of the lower abdomen, you will develop your center energy. You use that power wherever necessary.
Even though you focus the energy in your lower abdomen, you will not be able to move the energy to the area where you need it right away. You have to think about how you are going to move it. You have to think about two things, gathering and filling up the power, and then moving the power to where the opponent will attack. Also if you have a weapon, you have to project energy through the weapon. If you understand this point, you'll know how to train and what you need to develop. At the same moment you meet your opponent, you focus on your abdomen (hara) and project your ki where you need it. The result will be that you will shut down your opponent's power. I understand that as the power of "aiki."
I think that's why it's really important to develop the mind and body foundation. That is true not only for "aiki." In karate when you strike you step in with your foot. It's the same with kendo and sumo. I recommend sumo training. Sumo still includes basic body training for bujutsu.

There's no mention or need to mention the ideas of gyro-dynamics, etc., to arrive at "aiki". There's no need to have to mention "spiralling". There may be some usage of the body's joints around the axes at some times and sometimes (often) there is "spiralling" use of the forces... but that's not the essence of what "kokyu" and the "ten chi jin" forces are.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Erick Mead
09-19-2006, 02:38 PM
If you attack -- you open this door that you have no means of closing because your energy is committed to a plane (x-y, y-z, or x-z) where the aikidoka is not fighting. Which is what Aikido emphasizes. It is not something one can "guard"
What I meant by "guard" was to try to make sure your body has potential in each direction (I don't feel qualified to say The Six Directions, but that's what I mean).

I get that, but I do not think that one can maintain that potential in all axes when converting potential into actual energy in an attacking plane. I think I can illustrate (see below) by a concrete example how the application of kokyu shifts the weight of uke in attack according to this gyrodynamic interpretation.

The earlier discussion elaborated my thoughts on the use of the joints as virtual rate gyro sensors to define the condition of action, This is an interpretation of the operation of ki musubi as a gyrodynamic sensory tool in determining uke's dynamic state at connection. Kokyu is the active application of gyrodynamic torque conversion to affect the sensed conditions.

I will show below how I see this interpretation operating in the shifting of weight by kokyu principles. I will attempt to distinguish it from the effective principles in the same mode of thought that I see operating in judo.

By maintaining this potential it seems that you can respond a lot faster and more appropriately, with less time for "thought" (maybe because you're already "thinking" about it). I've recently started to understand a little bit of this, and have tried to put a simple understanding of it into playing sticky hand type stuff. It has improved my defensive sphere immensely. Whether I'm doing it "right" or not I don't know, but it feels like it has good results.

In an attack, four of those six directions (two axes forming a plane) are highly energetic -- converting potential energy into actual translation and rotation. Every limb that is not supporting weigh at impact is capable of converting that basic tai sabaki into a delivered blow along that plane, and if you are capable of loft in a given art -- all four. The rotating juji "sawblade," if you will. It may be oriented in any give plane with respect to the ground, but once established it creates a frame of reference for everything that happens thereafter. That is the weakness of attacking, it loses potential in some of those directions in order to gain it in others, since conservation of momentum must be maintained.

The two directions (forming the axis of the attacking plane about the center) are not energized except in torque. Because this axis is in torque, one cannot directly counter a force in the same plane in which the torque axis lies. Gyroscopic forces will pull the resultant to a plane 90 degrees out. Any restoring moment must be applied in like fashion.

Let me try a concrete example with a specific technique.

Assume shomenuchi ikkyo with the right hand.

The plane of rotation of the attack is in the vertical-fore and aft plane (y,z). Torque for that rotation lies on the transverse (left-right) axis (x). The horiztonal plane cutting uke in half at the hips is (x,y).

If I as nage extend to the attakcing hand, and connect to rotate uke's body in the (x,z) (transverse or cartwheel plane), the resultant is in the (x,y) horizontal plane. The application of a cartwheeling moment on uke's arm or upper torso from nage's left to right converts uke's vertical rotational momentum, and rotates the entire rotational plane of that attack in the horizontal (x,y) plane -- taking the blow to uke's left of his intended line.

Because the resultant acts in the (x,y) plane, it accelerates the attacking right hip (which is rotating ahead of the arm in the horizontal (x,y) plane to generate the moment spring potential for the strike).

This advances the hip too far ahead of the arm and destroys both the power and the maai of the attack. It creates kuzushi. The attack ends up too far forward. The shift left places uke's balance wieghted into shikaku to his left-forward as he sets his foot down for the strike.

Conversely, if uke applies a restoring moment directly counter to the felt rotation in the (x,z) cartwheeling plane that nage imparts, the right hand rule rotates the vertical plane of the descending attack back toward the line, but the torque conversion eats up the rotational moment of the hip, because it is counter in the (x,y) rotation to the right hip's rotation forward. It is also eccentric to the established rotation (acting from the center of the hips, vice the left hip pivot point that is the pivot for the strike) and the eccentricity also causes the left hip to rotate back from where uke had fixed it for the strike.

This destroys the power of the attack and creates kuzushi to the left forward if uke does nothing. If he counters the cartwheel moment before he steps, it creates kuzushi to the right (and the ikkyo beomes a draw cut).

Depending on how far along the strike is at connection (i.e. at or approaching horizontal), you may actually be applying some moment in the (x,y) plane, and thus creating more forward rotation and thus kuzushi further forward in the (y,z) plane. Of course, the attempt to resist that directly with counter moment in the (x,y) plane, converts that energy back into the (y,z) plane but, by the right hand rule, rotating back over the top rearward thus eating up the decending moment in the striking arm, again destroying power in the attack.

All of this occurs without ever directly operating upon either the power plane (hip rotating in (x,y)) or the application plane (arm and shoulder rotating in (y,z)).

Judo, it seems to me in contrast, typically acts in the power plane or in the application plane, directly manipulating moment in the plane to effect a throw (kuzushi, tsukuri and kake) or using a force couple at the point of rotation to steal momentum at the fulcrum of rotation to stall a throw or pin. The resulting throw may seem similar in many respect to that of aikido but it is arrived at by a completely different route. The judoka is acting on the planar force couple that defines the torque axis that the aikidoka is manipulating by gyrodynamic means.

A judoka will tell you a force couple can be shifted to alter its axis/ fulcrum eccentricity to change the effective leverage that exists. It is the physically unavoidable torque axis, regardless of the leverage in the plane, that provides the opening in the attack for aikido technique -- at a place where the attacker is precisely incapable of acting to counter in extension without destroying the very energy devoted to the attack.

This is what kokyu seems to exploit in the gyrodynamics I have been discussing.

The same analysis applies to the motion of each joint of the body.
In applying many techniques, a cascade of rotational phase shifts occurs at each joint in turn, which shift their rotation to pass energy on to the next one in line.

The differential planes of rotation of each joint versus its next adjacent companion can be similarly juxtaposed as the shoulder and hips are counterpoised in ikkyo. This system of phase shifts is actively usd by the body to generate, store and convert power (as with the hips to create potential for the hand strike) and to transfer forces, whether applied or received dynamically instead of statically.

When kokyu is applied with correct ki musubi, like snapping a whip, those successive torsional phase shifts propagate from wrist to hips accelerating or amplifying like a wave approaching the beach until it no longer can contain the stored energy. The wave breaks out of its continuous form and its dynamic structure becomes chaos; the body departs from its static and dynamic equilibrium and collapses.

This is the action by which kokyu shifts uke's weight as I see the dynamic principles operating.

In kotegaeshi, sankyo or nikkyo or some forms of kokyunage it is applied from wrist through elbow, shoulder, spine and hips. In the shomenuchi ikkyo example it was the hips and shoulder. In iriminage, the same is occurring from the head, down the spine to the center. In aiki otoshi the rotation is to the hips directly, in a plane vertically. In sumi otoshi it is from the elbow, etc.

Like snapping a whip you need a feel (ki musubi) for the resonance wave the technique is designed to create.

Now, to Mike this may be equivalent to contradictory jin in three planes -- I'll leave it to him to elaborate how that might be understood -- if it differs in any meaningful way from gyrodynamic torque conversion I have described.

The kokyu application tends reinforce in my mind the conclusions about the kinethetic sensory use of these same dynamics. Since it is easier to see that the principles may be acted upon by kokyu, it is perhaps easier to understand how they may be sensed in ki musubi.

Mike Sigman
09-19-2006, 02:50 PM
Now, to Mike this may be equivalent to contradictory jin in three planes -- I'll leave it to him to elaborate how that might be understood -- if it differs in any meaningful way from gyrodynamic torque conversion I have described. Not me.... I see what you're trying to say and I think it's a totally different thing so I'm just saying, "Pass". ;)

Tim Fong
09-19-2006, 03:26 PM
Erick,
I'm having a hard time visualizing what you are talking about. Could you be so kind as to give us a free body diagram?

Thanks.

Erick Mead
09-19-2006, 04:28 PM
I think I've spent a lot of time laying out pretty detailed explanations and illustrations around the classical
idea of "kokyu" forces, Erick... it's all archived. Since my effort is not to supplant traditional means of description (not theory) but to supplement them with other descriptions, I do not dispute it. That was not the point of the inquiry. Rather it was to ask if there was anything in my description of the dynamics from the perspectives I have outlined that is contrary or just flat out wrong in principles from the perpectives that you teach. You say it is so, but do not elaborate why, in this context, since in your other writings here you have not adresed (to my knowledge) anyhing like this.
Your theory of joints and gyro-dynamics isn't needed to explain that at all. Maybe not to a scholar of Chinese martial arts -- It goes a good deal further with an American college kid or sailor, however.

I disagree with it and prefer to stick as close as I can to the classical theory and the practical demonstrations. ... There's no mention or need to mention the ideas of gyro-dynamics, etc., to arrive at "aiki". There's no need to have to mention "spiralling". There may be some usage of the body's joints around the axes at some times and sometimes (often) there is "spiralling" use of the forces... but that's not the essence of what "kokyu" and the "ten chi jin" forces are. OK. For you. I'm not in this for me alone, I have to prepare to transmit a tradition in turn, and according to my own understanding, and to make it comprehensible to others ultimately, third or fourth hand. I may be corrected from time to time when I make grievous errors. Point some of them out -- I am sure they are there. Please instruct me. Onegaishimasu.

I have no brief to argue that O-Sensei innovated his concepts of kokyu (he did not), or of ki generally (he likewise did not). His innovations revolve around ki musubi and takemusu aiki. I have a firm grasp (and a degree) in the Chinese philosophical antecedents, while you seem to have a grasp on the particular usages in the Chinese qigong and related martial traditions. We need not belabor those points to the degree that you and I have done elsewhere. I have no interest in the parochial battles between the Sinophiles and the Nipponophiles or whether kokyu or Tenchijin is the term of art du jour...

Japan, on most of these concepts is at least second hand, (but a very good reporter, I might add). We in the West are at least two steps removed from those root concepts and worlds away from their context of development. We need our own interpretation from our own foundation, that is true to tradition in technique and yet has a common basis to relate to earlier traditions of description about what is actually happening to the state of the body's balance and weight dynamic as technique occurs.

Bottom line, I could are less which team gets credit for it, or who innovated ( or stoel from) whom. I want to teach it in ways that are capable of being understood by the largest possible scope of people I might ever have occasion to try to teach and to develop my own understanding of it further and deeper.

The problem is that the Chinese system of references is remarkably ill-suited to teach a round-eye kid with a whiff of physics, and a love of fighter planes who simply admires the art of aikido and wishes to practice it and to receieve what it offers. That is our chief student pool. It is not so atypical of aikido students generally here in the States, I find.

Physically, empirically, we also experience the same things in our bodies, East or West, though we describe them differently. We should be able to observe what is occurring, describe it appropriately and then draw conlusions and lessons form those observations. That is the teaching of the West. It was the teaching of the Chinese scholars as well. Their systems and tradition knowledge should not be disregarded, but their terms of reference are not terribly apt for this time and place. I respect them and will look to any one with due knowledge to show me corrections that rely upon them. But they are simply not useful in teaching here to someone who has neither the time or inclination (as I did) to research that background beforehand. I need good rubrics to reach them, to teach them and to assist them to understand the concepts physically, and to help them want to understand.

That is all I am trying to accomplish, and really only because in looking and looking, I do not see that any one else has yet tried to do so in this way. God knows there are better physicists than me, but I see what I see with the eye of an aikidoka of some length of experience, and an eye and intuitive "hara/seat-of-the-pants" sense for rotational dynamics and gyroscopic stability from a previous helo career. I bring one or two things to the table on these points.

Take it or leave it as you like, but if we are in a discussion forum let us at least discuss and not dismiss.

If you'd like to see what I consider a fairly pragmatic description (although still vague, partially due to the translator maybe) of the forces and "aiki", take a look at this old interview from Aikido Journal of Inaba Minoru:

Your quote is wonderful, right on, true, accurate and I get it the concepts because I have studied them in many respects. I get the admonition regardless of the concepts: "Do this and it will work for you." You get the problem: translation. Not good or poor but that it is necessary.. I wish to make it native, not translated.

In China or Japan the result of that admonition may be a student bowing or nodding smartly and carrying on to do those things until it does work for him. We have wilder horses to train here. They ask why; they do not ncessarily train well if they do not see why they are training. Maybe one can view this as a fault, may be not. Asking why is expected here, almost as much as not asking is in Japan. But it is a characteristic of culture that must be used to teach as much as dutiful practice with little question at the suggestion of one in authority is commonplace in Japan.

Westerners are different (few Japanese will argue with this) and we learn differently, although we do not learn differing techniques. The leaven of those willing to follow the eastern models of learning are and will remain a relative few. We do not, by and large, take such instruction well.

Some traditionalists may say this makes us unworthy of instruction. I do not agree, we bring other, not superior, but different, qualities to bear, chiefly initiative, challenge and collaboration, that can inform development of an art, and expand its penetration while yet be true to tradition in technique as well as being comprehensible and without the "secret teachings" that O-Sensei warned against and a sensibility that reliance on alien or esoteric concepts tends to risk creating.

I just want to make it as plain as possible. Wabi.

It requires some detailed messy prep work to accomplish that seemingly effortless result.

eyrie
09-19-2006, 05:28 PM
Whilst the physics of gyrodynamics has been most edifying, I am reminded by the words my sempai said to me when I first started teaching - "Simplify it".... ;)

Mike Sigman
09-19-2006, 05:46 PM
Since my effort is not to supplant traditional means of description (not theory) but to supplement them with other descriptions, I do not dispute it. That was not the point of the inquiry. Rather it was to ask if there was anything in my description of the dynamics from the perspectives I have outlined that is contrary or just flat out wrong in principles from the perpectives that you teach. You say it is so, but do not elaborate why, in this context, since in your other writings here you have not adresed (to my knowledge) anyhing like this. I dunno... I thought I'd addressed all of these things in past posts. I separate out the conditioning and forces used by the body from the techniques/strategies/tactics. As I noted, you appear to make a strategy/tactic some sort of "learned body skill as a response to an attack". I don't really cavil with that point, but kokyu is not the "learned body skill as a response to an attack", but rather "kokyu" is a learned force skill. As Shioda noted in that quote I gave earlier, Judo, etc., all have "kokyu" even though they have different names and usages for it. You seem to be applying the "usage" to replace the basic skill. OK. For you. I'm not in this for me alone, I have to prepare to transmit a tradition in turn, and according to my own understanding, and to make it comprehensible to others ultimately, third or fourth hand. I may be corrected from time to time when I make grievous errors. Point some of them out -- I am sure they are there. Please instruct me. Onegaishimasu. You're supposed to say, "Onegai, o-negai!!!". ;) I already said what I think is wrong with your approach. I.e., I'm rebutting *your* argument. My arguments have been laid out in the past. Plus, I'll be happy to show you sometime if you want to come to Colorado and see what God could have done for Florida if only he'd had the money.

I agree that there needs to be a westernized way of viewing these things and some of us are essentially trying to lay all the known data and (reproducible) skills on the table in order to codify/simplify exactly what is done, how it's done, and why. Your effort is a good one. All I was saying was that I thought it missed the mark a bit.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

dps
09-20-2006, 04:49 AM
Excellent job Erik. You are right on the mark.

Erick Mead
09-20-2006, 11:53 AM
I dunno... I thought I'd addressed all of these things in past posts. I separate out the conditioning and forces used by the body from the techniques/strategies/tactics. As I noted, you appear to make a strategy/tactic some sort of "learned body skill as a response to an attack". I don't really cavil with that point, but kokyu is not the "learned body skill as a response to an attack", but rather "kokyu" is a learned force skill. ... I agree that there needs to be a westernized way of viewing these things and some of us are essentially trying to lay all the known data and (reproducible) skills on the table in order to codify/simplify exactly what is done, how it's done, and why. Your effort is a good one. All I was saying was that I thought it missed the mark a bit.

I will comment on two things, albeit at some length. Where we differ is on how to arrive at "Why." Analogy ultimately elaborates; analysis ultimately simplifies. You are doing one. I am attempting the other.

First, these different forms of knowledge directly relate to your stated goal of cataloging skills, force manipulations and techniques acroding to their perceived similarities. While invaluable in itself, that is not, in point of fact, the westernized mode of knowledge. Reams of biological observations and notations of similarities were collected for several centuries. It was not until someone came along and gave a principled view on the reason for the differences that biology adopted the scientific method.

The forms of knowledge that China developed (and Japan received) were concrete catalogs of holistically related cases. Very much in keeping with what you are saying. Their treatment of empirical operations on the principle of similarity, while very sophisticated holistically (in the forms of bagua, I Ching, five elements, etc.) and very useful, remains representational and analogical, in the nature of catalog, rather than formulary. They would see patterns in different situations that were holistically or analogically similar, to arrive at concepts such as "li" (inner principle) or ki, or even jin. They are not "wrong," but simply unreduced to components, from which other combinations or new things could be distinguished, imagined or tested in rigorous ways. The usages of "li" provided no rubric to test intuitive propositions that might arise from observing items in the catalog.

The Chinese approached the invisible with the idea of similarity. Their ultimate principle was Tao. But in their development of thought the Tao innately became visible (and ceased to be the Tao) and thus one did not seek for the invisible Tao, (which was without form and unapproachable rationally), but for the manifestations of the Tao -- which are numberless, and thereby recognize its presence and operation in their similarities. Ki as a concept is in this same vein.

The Western mind approached the invisible with the idea of difference. The Western mind would see difference and seek for the as yet unseen thing that was the cause of differences. The immediately visible was seen as caused by principles that were not immediately visible, but they deemed must be rationally within grasp. There are religious reasons for this, among other things. They insisted that God conformed to reason in His nature. Presumptuous perhaps, but very useful. Science as we know it was thus born.

Second, Japan is not China, nor is it less than China in weight of thought, merely because they been influenced by and derived concepts from Chinese thought. They are who they are. The Japanese have their own unique perspectives on both their inheritance and their posterity, as do we in the West. We must each be true to both.

The Japanese concepts of Kami are actually closer to Western religious traditions of invisible, innate, particular and immanent principle that underlie the development of scientific principles, than are native Chinese religious ideas. The swift adoption by the Japanese of scientific modes of thought and endeavor, especially in comparison to China is a remarkable achievment, and testament to related ways of thinking.

It is in no small part related to kannagara, which distinguished Japan strongly from all her continental influences. Japanese will certainly tell you so, and I also believe it is true for this reason. O-Sensei's thought comes from this same fount of tradition, and is thus distinct from Chinese antecedents that have contributed to the ideas of Japan, and even to some of his ideas. Jin or prana or whatever name you choose to give may have contributed to their efforts, but they did different things with it, and what they did with it is more in keeping with Western ideas than with Chinese.

Your catalogs of "body skill" and direct demonstration of manipulating internal body forces and pressures, is in that ancient Chinese mode. It does not reduce itself beyond the catalog of specific skills and forces you can demonstrate. I am sure you are quite accomplished. I do not dispute that it works to teach everything that is in your catalog of skills, nor that collecting them is valuable.

But it is not complete to transmit the knowledge of aikido, kokyu-ho, taijuui-ho, or specific techniques to non-Japanese. It never can be complete without native principles that intuitively explain the operations of specific cases. Adele Westbrook and the late Oscar Ratti made some strong efforts at generalizing principles, as did Saotome. Both efforts were only partially successful, for all of their invaluable content. In the latter case, in part it was because of the traditional nomenclature problems that cause the recurrent debates here, and in the former case because of a reverse nomenclature problem created by trying to solve the first one.

They all attempted to find ways to translate the concepts. They were doomed to fail because the concepts they are trying to translate from the holistic analogical similarity tradition, do not and can never map one-for-one correspondence onto the reductionist ideas from the analytic difference tradition of the West.

I am seeking to give a sound physical interpretation for what I know happens when I perform technique. That allows cultural transparency. Then I, or someone, one can simplify those interpretations into essential statements that are adequate to define the operation of technique in the Aikido tradition and also make sense from the western perspective. Reverse concept engineering, in a way.

By engaging similarity we get catalog, but by differences we get hypthesis, and from hypothesis, we can make statements ( or tke actions) that can be disproven -- not by opinion or authority but by further differences in observation and yet futher refinement of hypotheses.

When a certain connection fails in application of a given technique, it is "disproven" in that context and the remaining connections that exist are to be likewise tested. If your ki musubi or connection was able enough, hopefully one of the others connections will prove effective. Then you can contemplate better why the others you tried may have failed, and on that basis try to connect to them better or or apply technique a little differently next time. This creative and iterative refinement of intuition is what I sense as part of takemusu, as O-Sensei meant that process to work in real-time technique. It is also the method of science.

What you are doing lacks hypothesis. Hypothesis might lead to some place not in that catalog, someplace not on your map, and a technique or variation on the forces which are at best only loosely related to any item on your list.

Everyone finds unexpected places led by intuition in training. What intuition needs, like anything else in martial tradition, is discipline -- a principle as a guide.

In Japan that principle is very often "authority." We westerners have a curious and turbulent relation with authority. "Li," as principles of the inevitable outgrowth of Tao presumed by traditional Chinese knowledge, does not always function so well where messy humans are concerned, as even Lao-tsu recognized. We get to make too many of our own rules. We westerners, furthermore, tend to insist on it, and we seem to find things that authority never suspected by doing so.

O-Sensei believed that Aikido transcended cultural particulars in each case. Aikido is meant for for the world and not just Japan. That is the posterity I owe allegiance to in the development of my thought about Aikido and in my efforts to be able to teach it better and in ways that are both true to tradition and transparent to culture.

It is well documented that this was the conception that O-Sensei had of aikido, that it would ultimately lead to places even he had not been. Principles are the only thing that will guide one down the unknown road, or where there are no roads at all that one can see. And everyone in beginning to learn starts from that perspective, since they have no map to begin with. If given yours, they could not begin to read it. And if they wish to learn a catalog, they will have grave difficulty in independent learning, or in incultating the intuitve and continuous creative power in technique that O-Sensei meant by takemusu aiki.

I may be off the mark; or it is just possible that we have different marks to which we are aiming. Either way, I would like to know why, in principle, it may be so, so that I can more rigorously refine the intuition that even you have given partial credit, and ultimately find ways to simplify it.

Mike Sigman
09-20-2006, 12:18 PM
Your remarks/opinion appear to be mostly commentary, Erick, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time wrangling you over opinion. Basically, the explanations I have laid out I relate to basic physical phenomena that can be described with force vectors and basic skills. That is how far "kokyu power" can be resolved. You are applying "gyrodynamics" as "aiki"... but real "aiki" is not resolveable really into an analogue like "right hand rule" or "gyrodynamics". I.e., I would counter that my explanations are at a far more elemental level than yours are. Even Inaba Sensei's explanation works at a far more elemental level than yours. I think you have a nice theory about a more-than-elemental concept, but I consider "aiki" to be simply an offshoot of more elemental forces; nothing more.

True, "aiki" is sophisticated (and there are different levels of that sophistication), but it can still be explained by incremental analysis on a fairly basic level.

My initial suggestion was that you simply think of the basic "ki tests", some of which Ueshiba showed, too, and you'll find there the root to what "aiki" is. True Aiki doesn't require any motion of the body whatsoever.... i.e., "gyrodynamics" is not needed except as a conceptually less-refined form of what "aiki" really is.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Erick Mead
09-20-2006, 12:18 PM
Whilst the physics of gyrodynamics has been most edifying, I am reminded by the words my sempai said to me when I first started teaching - "Simplify it".... ;) As Pascal or Jefferson are variously reputed to have said " I had not the time to make it shorter." Working on it, though. Most likely FAR, FAR longer than a Pascal or a Jefferson ...

In dealing with something as seemingly simple and basic as "weight transfer," I remember that it took several million years to bring about our particular form of bipedalism. It is only the second time it has independently evolved as a form of locomotion. It is therefore, by no means, very easily simplified. We easily assume so because we all do it without thinking about it. A little aikido traininng quickly cured me of that notion.

That I am still toying with the problem years later is some indication of its knottiness. Well, I am probably a bad example there, but everyone here is still tinkering with it too, so let that be our guide, shall we?

It takes a new human being some three or so years of constant daily training just to master its basics. And yet once that is learned, and after only a couple more years practice, it takes only a few days or weeks to master the classical gyrodnyamics of the bicycle. There is clearly a relationship between them in the way our stability system works, if it were not so it should take much longer to learn an utterly new form of stabilization and weight transfer.

But as I said, wabi is my ultimate thematic ideal, like cha no yu and its teacup -- but that is its last refinement. Meanwhile, I am dealing with all the mud flying off the potter's wheel, smearing my apron and all the spilt glaze running over the floor...

Erick Mead
09-20-2006, 01:10 PM
Basically, the explanations I have laid out I relate to basic physical phenomena that can be described with force vectors and basic skills. Then I hardly see why gyroscopic mechanics is such a stretch.
I think you have a nice theory about a more-than-elemental concept, but I consider "aiki" to be simply an offshoot of more elemental forces; nothing more. So do I, but it is not just that -- or "simply" anything. Everything has its ura side. I'll leave it at that.
True Aiki doesn't require any motion of the body whatsoever.... i.e., "gyrodynamics" is not needed except as a conceptually less-refined form of what "aiki" really is. I don't think I have said otherwise. Gyrodynamics or gyrocopic mechanics is hardly unrefined (although my attempts to work out its application in this instance may well be). It does not require overt motion of the body, although it can operate on it.

An actively gyrostabilized sytem does not "move" -- like a Segway, or a hovering helo. In fact, they display an almost "live" feel of near instantaneous recovery from disturbance. But there is an awful lot going on to achieve such graceful immobility (motion in stillness). My atoms are whirling and quivering around at ungodly speeds, but here I sit like a lump.

There are two functional aspects to conventional gyros -- 1) sensory and 2) operative stability. A vibrating quartz crystal can be used as a gyro rate sensor. Some systems can perform both functions simultaneously. The second function involves overt motion of the system, the first does not, although it may be used as feedback input to accomplish the other, as in the Segway. Both aspects are in play in my conception.

I know from personal experience in flying as well as aikido that achieving such stable (non)motion with a fundamentally unstable structure is far more intuitive than conscious in operation, and thus I need to identify all the components that inform that intuitive feel, in order to train better. This is what I am digging at.

Mike Sigman
09-20-2006, 01:53 PM
An actively gyrostabilized sytem does not "move" -- like a Segway, or a hovering helo. In fact, they display an almost "live" feel of near instantaneous recovery from disturbance. But there is an awful lot going on to achieve such graceful immobility (motion in stillness). My atoms are whirling and quivering around at ungodly speeds, but here I sit like a lump.

There are two functional aspects to conventional gyros -- 1) sensory and 2) operative stability. A vibrating quartz crystal can be used as a gyro rate sensor. Some systems can perform both functions simultaneously. The second function involves overt motion of the system, the first does not, although it may be used as feedback input to accomplish the other, as in the Segway. Both aspects are in play in my conception.

I know from personal experience in flying as well as aikido that achieving such stable (non)motion with a fundamentally unstable structure is far more intuitive than conscious in operation, and thus I need to identify all the components that inform that intuitive feel, in order to train better. This is what I am digging at.You seem to be saying in essence that there is a "self-correcting-stabilizing" mode in a gyrodynamic model. OK, fine. There is. I'm saying that a linear-forces model is also self-correcting. The idea of "six directions" training, etc., is related to linear/vector directions, not the gyroscopic stability you're talking about. Think of a bead with small bungee strings pulling the bead up, down, forward, back, left, right. Even vibrating atoms isn't going to get you any closer than "sounds sorta like", Erick.

When it comes to the applications of the linear forces, as in "aiki", I think levers and pullies is pretty much all there is to it, in true motion involving jin/kokyu. One of the interesting things you said a few posts back was about teaching a "tradition". The "tradition" of the forces stretched between Heaven and Earth and harmonizing with them has never, that I have ever seen, mentioned anything other than sometimes circular application of linear forces.

FWIW

Mike

Erick Mead
09-20-2006, 05:11 PM
I'm saying that a linear-forces model is also self-correcting. The idea of "six directions" training, etc., is related to linear/vector directions, not the gyroscopic stability you're talking about. Think of a bead with small bungee strings pulling the bead up, down, forward, back, left, right.

When it comes to the applications of the linear forces, as in "aiki", I think levers and pullies is pretty much all there is to it, in true motion involving jin/kokyu. "True?" An interesting qualifier. All continuous forces, regardless of curvature, are "linear" but I know what you mean.

Let me first show why that model does not physically answer the equilibrium conditions of known martial positions and ordinary "static" stability, i.e. -- not in overt motion.

The six direction "linear" forces model has gravity and your upright resistance support, that's two directions. Plus it has left and right -- forward and back, all of which can only be created statically by moment lever action of friction against the same ground. Kiba-dachi, kokutsu-dachi and zenkutsu dachi are examples of "braced" postures against the ground, (which BTW have extremely limited hip sway).

On the other hand, I can be perfectly comfortable and balanced with a two hundred pound guy laid across my hip girdle in mid air, standing with my heels together. No large sideways or forward-back bracing is available in this posture, and I am not a kangaroo with an available tripod tail, so something else is obviously working for me.

In fact, using your model we have only three forces acting -- two in direct opposition (up down) at your center of mass, and one (friction) that does NOT act at the center of your bungee bead system. laterla sway would only be opposed by eccentric components of your own bracing support force and the ressitant friction against the ground. In fact, the force couple created by forward motion and opposing friction stopping the foot creates rotation, i.e. -- torque. This looks like potential kuzushi to me. It is also rotary and therefore gyroscopic in form and action.

Your form when standing is a self-supporting pylon fixed at its foot by weight and ground friction. An oscillating pole also obeys gyroscopic principles -- which is why your car antenna, when sprung
and released takes on an elliptical orbit sway, and as it loses momentum its radius of sway decreases and and the orientation of the ellipse travelled by the tip precesses as it slows down and loses momentum -- just like the axis of a slowing top. (Guys, please don't ding the finish with the end button or break it off or your wife will be really mad).

You maintain your bipedal balance by oscillating and active dampening a spring-loaded double universal joint at the center of this pole. Because it is spring loaded and muscle actuated you can wobble this thing back and forth quite fast over a very small radius. You learn as child to make this oscillation dampening very very small, and its frequency therefore very high. We are looking for angular momentum and kinetic energy is proportional to the mass but the square of the velocity, thus high frequency oscillations give a suprisingly large angular moment to use.

The fact of this dynamic oscillation gives the human body true gyroscopic stability, like the wheels of the bike, which from a static perspective (your six-direction equilibrum model is a system of static springs) seems like a violation of conservation laws -- i.e. -- without the wheels spinning the bike will easily topple fall over, so a snap shot of the system statically does not show you the torque energy that provides it stability dynamically, and the faster it turns the more stability it has. For this reason the toddler, whose sway is still too large and his stabilizing oscillation too slow falls over all the time, and usually stands with a very wide stance.

The periodic torque you are experiencing in each hip as you oscillate or walk in dynamic equilibrium is manipulable as I have described.

The "tradition" of the forces stretched between Heaven and Earth and harmonizing with them has never, that I have ever seen, mentioned anything other than sometimes circular application of linear forces. How is "circular application of linear forces" NOT gyroscopic in nature?

Gernot Hassenpflug
09-20-2006, 06:36 PM
I'm pretty sure this discussion is going somewhere, Erick, and I'm looking forward to any further input from Mike on this. My perspective is as yet very limited, and in the tradition of the 6-direction training, but my perception of various arches in the body and their interactions is making self-study extremely interesting. I also notice that there is a fast oscillation helping to keep stability, in one-legged postures for instance, but my scope is more towards the (perceived by me as linear though with various twists in the routes that they take between end points and across joints) forces that maintain the arches in equilibrium and allow this oscillation to function as it does.

Mike Sigman
09-20-2006, 06:43 PM
The six direction "linear" forces model has gravity and your upright resistance support, that's two directions. Plus it has left and right -- forward and back, all of which can only be created statically by moment lever action of friction against the same ground. Kiba-dachi, kokutsu-dachi and zenkutsu dachi are examples of "braced" postures against the ground, (which BTW have extremely limited hip sway). Good... you're thinking about it, but you're not there yet. ;)You maintain your bipedal balance by oscillating and active dampening a spring-loaded double universal joint at the center of this pole. Because it is spring loaded and muscle actuated you can wobble this thing back and forth quite fast over a very small radius. You learn as child to make this oscillation dampening very very small, and its frequency therefore very high. We are looking for angular momentum and kinetic energy is proportional to the mass but the square of the velocity, thus high frequency oscillations give a suprisingly large angular moment to use. Well, I said an incremental analysis using simple vector forces would work and I know how to generate pretty good power with what I do... I'll simply say that I don't need no steenkin' oscillations in my analysis once more and let it go.

Here's the way we settle this: Tell me how you develop enough power to throw someone away through the air by using your oscillations, yet don't move. How does your body physically do this? What are the mechanisms? It's your theory, let's look into it a bit deeper. ;)

Mike

dps
09-20-2006, 07:49 PM
An example of linear stabilization verses gyroscopic stabilization.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rePNW0_EabY&eurl=

The light colored robot has linear stabilization, the dark colored robot has gyroscopic stabilization.

http://www.robots-dreams.com/2006/08/project_m_keepi.html

Mike Sigman
09-20-2006, 07:55 PM
An example of linear stabilization verses gyroscopic stabilization.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rePNW0_EabY&eurl=

The light colored robot has linear stabilization, the dark colored robot has gyroscopic stabilization.Hmmmm... I'm not sure that's what Erick is talking about. If it is, it's not what I'm talking about.

Regards,

Mike

dps
09-20-2006, 08:17 PM
More examples of gryo stabilzation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz5H0CtPfxM&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kQOiaXJSu8&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71GUWzEJfjY&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEUmMDgjlkc&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vVCseKtIdo&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNVdWT_xedA&mode=related&search=

dps
09-20-2006, 09:08 PM
Last one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DWkW-ctFU4&feature=PlayList&p=06E01699F9FBD983&index=11

Erick Mead
09-20-2006, 10:49 PM
More examples of gyro stabilzation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz5H0CtPfxM&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kQOiaXJSu8&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71GUWzEJfjY&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEUmMDgjlkc&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vVCseKtIdo&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNVdWT_xedA&mode=related&search=
Cool, David. Thanks.

Rock 'em, Sock 'em Robots, Yamato-damashii-ho.

One of them even has a pretty good kokyunage ...

The reduced sway on the gyro model is fairly evident. From the diagram it is a stabilized simple pylon model , not a spring-jointed swivel pylon, but even so ...

Erick Mead
09-21-2006, 06:55 AM
Hmmmm... I'm not sure that's what Erick is talking about. If it is, it's not what I'm talking about. If I understand the typical application for these kind of robots, the gyro rate sensor (probably piezoelectric) merely senses the upsetting moment, and the same type of cog actuators operate to give the restoring moment in both cases. In fairness to Mike, the restoring moment mechanism here is equivalent to the "lever, pulley" static system he is talking about. Neither robot has a double universal jointed hip. I am talking about gyroscopic mechanics as a means to damp sway.

Both robots have feet that, on a human, would be about eighteen inches square. Their static stabiity solves most of their dynamic stability problems, through simple floor leverage. They do not demonstrate the supercritical stability that is associated with the most keen examples of dynamic human poise. A ballerina en pointe is not using the same mechanisms to damp her sway. Nor is an aikidoka in koshinage.

And I don''t know about you, but fighting in clown shoes is not waza I have any familiarity with -- perhaps it is dumboku-ryu ...

davidafindlay
09-21-2006, 07:53 AM
<snip>Let me try a concrete example with a specific technique.

Assume shomenuchi ikkyo with the right hand.

The plane of rotation of the attack is in the vertical-fore and aft plane (y,z). Torque for that rotation lies on the transverse (left-right) axis (x). The horiztonal plane cutting uke in half at the hips is (x,y).

<snip (x,y) (x,z) (y,z) etc>Thanks for your time with the reply! Much to my surprise I pretty much followed the logic of the description :), but to be honest I was kinda left a bit unconvinced about the effect (magnitude?) of a gryoscopic resultant force, given that the accelerations involved are prtty small, relative to an actual gyroscope. Maybe that will be something to fall out of the discussion about Mike's question about throwing someone away.

Regards,
Dave

davidafindlay
09-21-2006, 07:55 AM
<OT>but I consider "aiki" to be simply an offshoot of more elemental forcesAh, elemetal forces... didn't they also cause a certain egg to hatch, from which came a stone monkey... (!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibMHNV3Wsho

Sorry, couldn't resist it in passing, as its possibly the seminal reason from many moons ago that I am on this board, but anyhow.... :D

</OT>

Dave.

Erick Mead
09-21-2006, 05:10 PM
Thanks for your time with the reply! Much to my surprise I pretty much followed the logic of the description :), but to be honest I was kinda left a bit unconvinced about the effect (magnitude?) of a gryoscopic resultant force, given that the accelerations involved are prtty small, relative to an actual gyroscope. Maybe that will be something to fall out of the discussion about Mike's question about throwing someone away. Yes --- small. "Judge me by my size, do you." Sorry, likewise couldn't resist.

The resultant is determined by relative moment, and the moments are of the same order of magnitude. No, it is not a gyrocompass moment (ca. 20k rpm), but the physics is the same. The scale of proportion between the rotary moment and input moment in the example is much closer to par. And there is no moment on the off-axis to resist the input.

The more significant differnce, though, is that human balance is chaotic. The semi-cyclic wobble of the hips for stability is chaotic -- in the mathematical sense -- it can circuit one or the other loop of of its roughly figure eight loop path or back again at a moment's notice (pun intended) and reversing loops as well, never QUITE following the same path twice. Swivel your hips around and the shape of the motion of your center in stabilizing you is quite obvious.

The shape of the stability path of the center of mass is a loose collection of figure-eight paths very similar to (but different shape) as the Lorenz attrractor. The Lorenz attractor is the "butterfly" shape on the opening page of this paper: https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/1721.1/7335/2/AIM-1216.pdf#search=%22faucet%20drip%20bifurcation%20diagram%22

The dripping faucet bifurcation diagram, illustrates the consequence of this chaotic mechinasm. (Bear with me). At a low flow rate (acceleration) a faucet drips at one frequency (velocity). Increase the flow and it breaks into two discrete, but widely separated frequencies of drip. Increase it again and it breaks into four simultaneous rhythms, but closer together; eight and even closer together; 16 and ... and so on.

At a point, the diagram is almost black with discrete frquencies among which the drips actually fall, and the system is defined as "chaotic." Typically, this is almost immediatly after it undergoes its third period doubling, or "Period Three." You can see the bifurcation diagram on page 13 of the cited paper, figure 10.

Consider:
"The Tao begets One; One begets Two, Two begets Three and Three beget the Ten Thousand Things." We have just quantified it folks, that is all.

In a chaotic system acted on by vanishingly small perturbations like a dripping faucet, at high acceleration, the range of discrete frequencies available is such that instantaneous, (seemingly) discontinuous and highly disproportionate shifts of state can occur.

Because the frequency of wobble in the hip path (velocity) (time between drips) is chaotic, and the system is under a relatively large constant acceleration input (gravity) (flow of water) ( ie. -- a squared velocity term), the frequency of the wobble can change discontinuously and dispropotionately with arbitrarily small inputs among a very large range of discrete frequency values. That frequency is velocity. Kinetic energy increases by the square of velocity.

The "perpetual motion" objections come next Eeeek! We are increasing energy in the technique, by increasing frequency at constant ampitude without any obvious source, and thus violating entropy.

Not so. There is a source of energy -- right underneath us. We drop our hips as we perform technique, thus "stealing" energy from the earth (converting gravitational potential into actual kinetic energy.

Then, because our stabilizing system loops back on itself, we store that energy "momentarily" -- in our hip sway moment, and as the cyclic phase of the sytem comes back around we add back in more energy from the recovery push off from the drop we just made. We then can applying that additional moment energy to uke in the technique. All of that energy is now ready to dump into the side of uke's attack, adding moment gyroscopically and dispacing him out of his plane of action, .

Notably, there are gaps in the bifurcation diagram where the added acceleration becomes unsupportable and state of the system just collapses to one or a few values at that level of energy.

There is definitely resonance with aikido and kuzushi in that model.
The resultants are as suitably "spooky" (but entirely mathematically determinate) as aikido can be in practice.

David Orange
10-13-2008, 06:25 PM
How about applying your analysis to simply lifting your arm "using the hara"? Wouldn't that be a better practical start?

I was re-reading this thread for thoughts on weight transfer and found this comment very interesting. I recently had an experience that made it stand out. I'm hoping Mike will comment further.

I was doing tai chi, just opening the Yang form, raising and lowering my arms, when I suddenly remembered a discussion of raising the arms "from the center". I realized that I was simply "willing" my arms to raise and letting it happen as "necessary," which meant that I raised the arms with the shoulder muscles. Which is much as Erick describes it in a later post: you activate the shoulder muscles and the body has to adjust from the center to balance the structural forces, etc.

But this time, I just stopped, relaxed, and asked myself, "How could I raise my arms from the center?"

I sort of "pushed" with my abdomen and the arms raised.

Well, of course, the shoulder muscles and all the usual muscles acted, but this was different. Instead of "telling" my arms to raise, I told my center that I wanted to open tai chi and waited to see how that would happen. So the command went from the center through the body (via the fascia?). My arms began to raise and, acting from the center, I felt many small adjustments fall into place, things like letting the elbows remain heavy, equalizing the tension/relaxation in the left and right sides of the ribcage, both sides of the back, the shoulders, etc.

In short, it was a much more tactile experience than just sending a message to my muscles to raise my arms. In the process, I felt much more aware of my "whole body" than usual when raising the arms for tai chi. In particular, I had a much clearer awareness of my whole back and I wondered if this was what was meant by letting the chi "adhere to the back."

Mike's question led to a long and winding discourse that never came back to the point of raising the arms from the center and two years later, that point has never been fully addressed.

So how about it, Mike?

Is the experience described above related to what you meant? Can you expound further on how to raise the arms "from the center?"

Thanks.

David

Mike Sigman
10-13-2008, 08:15 PM
Mike's question led to a long and winding discourse that never came back to the point of raising the arms from the center and two years later, that point has never been fully addressed.

So how about it, Mike?

Is the experience described above related to what you meant? Can you expound further on how to raise the arms "from the center?"I dunno, David. I tried to briefly describe something to an old friend of mine yesterday (he's a longterm student of Ikeda Sensei) and then I went to describe the same thing in person to a couple of other people this afternoon and I had this realization again that it's almost impossible to describe these things in writing. In person, I had to keep backing up to clarify and show a point, so I suddenly realized that my written description to an old friend was pretty much useless.

Essentially, I don't want to touch your guesses about the connections,etc., to the hands from the hara unless I can feel what you're doing in conjunction with the way you're verbalizing it. That's a safety to keep me from misleading you by agreeing or disagreeing with something you've said. "Jin" is the foothold knowledge. One you understand up-jin and down-jin (the ki of earth and the ki of heaven), everything else is a logical progression.

When you raise your hands, the hands ARE the dantien; when you lower your hands, the hands ARE the crotch-weight/hara. Remember how our friend Justin Smith had fun with the crotch-weight idea because he didn't understand the physical principles so he thought it was some sort of spurious remark. ;) However, the connections (fascia and jin) are something that is impossible to say in words.

Mike

Erick Mead
10-14-2008, 12:59 PM
I dunno, David. I tried to briefly describe something to an old friend of mine yesterday (he's a longterm student of Ikeda Sensei) and then I went to describe the same thing in person to a couple of other people this afternoon and I had this realization again that it's almost impossible to describe these things in writing. My favorite illustration is showing how to lift the end of a rope off the ground that is longer than my height plus my reach. My considered opinion on what is happening, mechanically speaking, I will not indulge, but it is not hard to find here. The only difference between the rope and the limbs is that in the body there are means to hold any position thus obtained.

I illustrate the holding process as "tree limb" behavior ("unbendable" arm being an isolated and much misunderstood example of that)

But those means are not used to obtain the motion to change position and shift energy to begin with. I have suggested in the past that such motion is somewhat "tentacular," something perhaps held over from before our pre-vertebtrate ancestors had bones.

One you understand up-jin and down-jin (the ki of earth and the ki of heaven), everything else is a logical progression. We... agree ... Hmm.

[QUOTE=Mike Sigman;218065]When you raise your hands, the hands ARE the dantien; when you lower your hands, the hands ARE the crotch-weight/hara. /QUOTE]I like to illustrate the consequence of connected body and the sense of it with the sword, held in chudan extension and then shifting from chudan to seigan and back again using the center alone -- never using the arms for anything but holding the sword.

C. David Henderson
10-17-2008, 10:13 AM
Interesting rereading. Thanks to all

DH