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roninroshi
09-11-2006, 05:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUabmGscELU&NR

roninroshi
09-11-2006, 06:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdcGB-qSVp4&mode=related&search=

gdandscompserv
09-11-2006, 07:15 PM
I'd say somebody that has been practicing an art as long as Seigo Okamoto has, probably has pretty good technique. I would sure like to feel it. That's one of the funny things about aikido though. It looks alot different than it feels.
Here's another one. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvPEU9mAX5Y) :D

gdandscompserv
09-11-2006, 07:18 PM
shoulda kept it in one thread.

roninroshi
09-11-2006, 08:32 PM
Shoulda, but alas didn't turn out that way.....

Pauliina Lievonen
09-12-2006, 05:50 AM
That was very very interesting. Thank you for posting it!

I was going to say, "I wish I could do that" but on second thoughts... I'm just plain too lazy to do the work required, so what's the use wishing? :o :o :o

What's with the music though in all these clips? :crazy: The one Mike Sigman just posted in the push hands thread, I realized half way through I'd stopped watching because I was hypnotized by the music... :freaky: :D

kvaak
Pauliina

Nick Simpson
09-12-2006, 07:07 AM
Looks like ukes diving for him. But doesnt all good aikido look a bit fake?

Mike Sigman
09-12-2006, 07:13 AM
Okamoto looks like he has some definite jin skills, but other than a guess that they're "fairly good", I don't want to try to say anything definite because he used Dive Monkies for his uke's. I hate it when someone has overly-dramatic Dive Monkies as stoog...er, uke's because it obscures whatever real power nage has.

Incidentally, he used his jin to come up out of that pile-up near the end... that's a part of what Rob John is talking about as being usefull in BJJ.

My 2 cents.

Mike

Nick Simpson
09-12-2006, 07:14 AM
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,490

You sir, are a post beast ;)

gdandscompserv
09-12-2006, 07:26 AM
Dive Monkies
Did you just coin that phrase Mike?
I don't remember ever hearing it before when referring to uke.
"Dive Monkeys."
What will you think of next.

Nick Simpson
09-12-2006, 07:35 AM
We call it duffy diving.

Mike Sigman
09-12-2006, 07:47 AM
Did you just coin that phrase Mike?
I don't remember ever hearing it before when referring to uke.
"Dive Monkeys."
What will you think of next.I can't take credit, unfortunately. "Dive monkies" and "dive bunnies" are fairly old terms describing uke's who don't "take ukemi", but rather "illustrate ukemi as it happens in the theater arts". ;)

Mike

gdandscompserv
09-12-2006, 09:31 AM
I can't take credit, unfortunately. "Dive monkies" and "dive bunnies" are fairly old terms describing uke's who don't "take ukemi", but rather "illustrate ukemi as it happens in the theater arts". ;)

Mike
Mike,
Would you be so kind as to provide a reference for the usage of the "fairly old terms" referring to aikido uke's as "dive monkies" or "dive bunnies?"
I googled the term and didn't get anything related to aikido.

Mike Sigman
09-12-2006, 10:00 AM
Would you be so kind as to provide a reference for Sorry, Ricky, I haven't finished transcribing all the conversations I had with people in my life... I'm only up to age 14 and there's a lot left to go before I can post references to everyone I've ever heard, the things they said, etc. I'll email you when it gets posted to the web. And I mean that sincerely. ;)

Best Regards,

Mike

gdandscompserv
09-12-2006, 10:06 AM
I'll email you when it gets posted to the web. And I mean that sincerely. ;)
Thanks Mike,
I'll be looking for it. :D

statisticool
09-12-2006, 10:30 AM
Incidentally, he used his jin to come up out of that pile-up near the end...


:D


Justin

statisticool
09-12-2006, 10:35 AM
Sorry, Ricky, I haven't finished transcribing all the conversations I had with people in my life...


If they are terms used in aikido, one would expect to find them in many areas, not just personal communications.


Justin

Mike Sigman
09-12-2006, 11:02 AM
If they are terms used in aikido, one would expect to find them in many areas, not just personal communications. Cite please.... where a "joke" is the same thing as a "term used in aikido". Why don't you publicly admit to stalking and harrassing threads I'm on, Justin, and tell us what your beef is. Jun has just closed two threads you interrupted with this bizarre stuff.... maybe you can make it 3 that Jun closes?

Mike Sigman

Pauliina Lievonen
09-12-2006, 12:32 PM
:D :D :D :D :D
I just almost fell off my chair laughing, we're really arguing sources for "dive monkeys"?!?
:D :D :D :D :D
Love the phrase though, I definitively resemble that remark at times.

kvaak
Pauliina
btw I would have put more grinning faces in but Aikiweb didn't let me. Hmph.

Mike Sigman
09-12-2006, 12:53 PM
I just almost fell off my chair laughing, we're really arguing sources for "dive monkeys"?!?
:D :D :D :D :D Yeah, sometimes I wonder if I'm on another planet. However, TBH, it's often interesting to watch the various psychologies/personalities of the people involved.
Love the phrase though, I definitively resemble that remark at times. I think there's a lot of similar comments about "dive bunnies", "mat bunnies", "mat monkies", etc., that I've heard in my life. Usually mentioned over a few beers and never meant with any real animus. ;)

Mike

gdandscompserv
09-12-2006, 12:58 PM
Honestly Mike, I have never heard the phrase. Would you be kind enough to explain what a "dive monkey" is?

Mike Sigman
09-12-2006, 01:07 PM
Honestly Mike, I have never heard the phrase. Would you be kind enough to explain what a "dive monkey" is?Watch some instructors who have overly-cooperative and overly-dramatic Uke's from their own schools... you'll understand what a "dive monkey" or a "dive bunny" or a "mat bunny" is. ;)

Mike

gdandscompserv
09-12-2006, 02:00 PM
Watch some instructors who have overly-cooperative and overly-dramatic Uke's from their own schools... you'll understand what a "dive monkey" or a "dive bunny" or a "mat bunny" is. ;)

Mike
"overly-cooperative?"
I don't know what that means really. Especially in aikido.
Oh, and quit winking at me. You're creeping me out! :p

Mike Sigman
09-12-2006, 02:22 PM
"overly-cooperative?"
I don't know what that means really. Especially in aikido.Really? Think about all the comments about "steal this technique" or "figure it out for yourself", etc., etc. The person who is not a clinical-enough or analytical-enough practitioner to spot what's real and what's the result of cooperative behaviour in Aikido... what chance to they have to "figure it out for yourself"??? They're doomed. A real martial artist should be very, very analytical (among other things), in my opinion. I've had several Asian instructors say things like "Understand?" (after showing me something once) or "people either figure it out or they don't".

It's a complex topic, but generally I'd say you need to be able to spot Dive Monkies when you see 'em and not let that get confused with real and interesting technique. ;) ;) ;) :freaky:

Mike

roninroshi
09-12-2006, 06:21 PM
Dive Monkey's,litter the landscape of many MA's but seem to prefer Aikido...My friend and Sensei
Bernie Lau would put them thru HELL,and therefore was pronounced being an advocate of the "Dark
Side"....He luved it and has never repented!!!

Gernot Hassenpflug
09-12-2006, 06:34 PM
Dive Monkey's, I must try to use that in Japanese at my next class. The problem is already severe with the use of the word "monkey" in Japanese! I'm not sure it's worth the risk lol I cna say though, that one way to curb these flying mugs is to specify one-tatami practice for the duration of the class. The energy will be sapped quickly from trying to squeeze a flying leap into a small space...!

roninroshi
09-12-2006, 06:54 PM
Mugurusaru=DiveMonkey in Nihonjin

gdandscompserv
09-12-2006, 07:24 PM
Dive Monkey's,litter the landscape of many MA's but seem to prefer Aikido...My friend and Sensei
Bernie Lau would put them thru HELL,and therefore was pronounced being an advocate of the "Dark
Side"....He luved it and has never repented!!!
I am finding this "dive monkey" concept fascinating. Never having heard the term before Mike mentioning it and now you claiming they "litter the landscape." I just can't wrap my brain around the concept of being "overly-cooperative" in an aikido demonstration. I mean we really do try to blend in the most exquisite of ways. Especially during a demonstration. When taking ukemi for my sensei, I was always most cooperative. In fact I tried even harder to become one with him. I think it is completely out of place to expect anything other than cooperation in the most harmonious of ways during a demonstration.
This doesn't imply weak attacks either. It simply means that when we meet, we should do so in the most harmonious of ways.
The dojo is the place for refining technique, not the demonstration hall, for goodness sakes. I am certainly an advocate of resisting while training. Not all of the time of course, but it certainly has it's place. I learned aikido in the manner that if someone could succesfully resist your waza, you were doing it incorrectly. So work on it in the dojo, but certainly not at a demonstration. Besides, you might "piss off" your sensei and really get hurt. And who wants to take that chance. No really, when taking ukemi for Iwao Yamaguchi sensei, it was always less painful to cooperate. He often encouraged us to try and resist him. It was never successful. So I say, if ya can't resist em, join em. :D

roninroshi
09-12-2006, 08:01 PM
These folk have alway's been around Mike simply gave them a name,we can all relate to...
Meik Skoss used to call them "Bliss Ninnie's"...I'm going back to
early 80's... :D

Mike Sigman
09-12-2006, 09:25 PM
Dive Monkey's,litter the landscape of many MA's but seem to prefer Aikido...Oh no, Wayne, I'd put the minions of Taiji up against Aikido anyday for the winner of the "Dive Monkies" contest. But as you say, the "anxious to complete the fantasy" crowd are in many martial arts.

As a friend of mine who was an amateur magician pointed out, many of the martial arts scenarios are the perfect settings for all sorts of suggestion, cult-behavior, etc. The costumes, the pecking-order, the exotica in rituals and phrase-usage, talk of the cosmos, etc., etc...... it would be the perfect feeding ground, and sometimes is, for anyone looking for willing and suggestible victims. Many people feel compelled to "flow with the cosmos" if that is what is expected of them. ;)

2 cents.

Mike

statisticool
09-12-2006, 09:30 PM
Does one have any suggestions on how to improve the (perceived) bad stuff in taijiquan and aikido?


Justin

gdandscompserv
09-12-2006, 09:30 PM
amateur magician
Maybe you should ask a professional. ;)

Gernot Hassenpflug
09-12-2006, 09:37 PM
Mugurusaru=DiveMonkey in Nihonjin

I don't know whether to laugh or cry, I think I'll do both :D
Nihonjin=Japanese person, Nihongo=Japanese language.
Just think of the implications of what your sentence turned
out as, and take a few more sips of o-sake to wash down
the mirth.

roninroshi
09-12-2006, 10:35 PM
My mistake...just asked my wife (she is Japanese) should be Nihongo...more O'Sake dozo!!!

roninroshi
09-12-2006, 10:48 PM
Justin,If Sifu/Sensei would encourage student's not to "dive"and give resistence from a true and deep
centered root then we could have a more fulfilling and "real"keiko.When I teach if my student's cave-in for me I let them know it...nothing is accomplished by this profane approach to any MA...having been in serious street encounter's do to bad judgement and or karma I know that dojo stuff will fail at that level...so I teach from that point of view...one of my student's is a tiger and we both benefit from the hammering keiko in both Taiji and Aiki art's...Ikeda Sensei and Saotome Sensei teach in the same mode...in the 80's I attened a seminar w/Saotome and it was all hardcore combat w/Aiki rolled in to find how it applies in that situation...if anyone did a "dive"Sensei chewed their ass bigtime...even in demo's he didn't put up w/bogus ukemi...
The dojo I used to train at was way into the touchie feely ukemi....made the "Sensei"look great but
keiko was hogwash...

Pauliina Lievonen
09-13-2006, 03:55 AM
I'd define dive monkeying (still liking that phrase!) as "unnecessarily exaggerating the effect of tori's technique"... it's something else than just "not resisting". We do a have a couple of dive monkeys in the dojo, but I think it's mostly due to enthusiasm and lack of experience really. Certainly nobody has told them to flow with the cosmos that I know of! :D

I don't think it's a big problem IF it's just something that enthusiastic juniors do and seniors keep an eye on it...if it happens with my partner I ask them to pay attention to how much they actually are out of balance or not. I know I've done it myself simply because taking ukemi is so much fun, sometimes you can get carried away. And taking ukemi for my teachers teacher, sometimes it might look like I'm taking falls for him, and all I can say to that is, go try for yourself, lol.

Not saying that there aren't dojo that seem to have diving for each other as the standard practice mode... I've been to a couple of those, too.

kvaak
Pauliina