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Luc X Saroufim
09-04-2006, 04:20 PM
ok,

shomen uchi, yokomen uchi, and tsuki are the only strikes i've learned to defend against. while i'm not exactly sure why, it's probably because i'm still at the point where i start each technique holding hands with someone, and also because i'm not ready for advanced stuff yet.

my question is: what about a high punch? these are fairly common. if someone is trying to punch you, they could easily go for the temple, throat, shoulder, chest, etc. as far as i'm concerned it's a pretty common punch.

does Aikido not train you for this, or am i missing something?

gdandscompserv
09-04-2006, 04:22 PM
tsuki can be high or low.

Astig Kamao
09-04-2006, 05:22 PM
High or low they are both straight punches (tsuki). Hooks, roundhouse, upper cuts are versions of yokomen (a curve punch). I 'turn' when there is a straight punch and I blend with a curve punch. When suprised I block it as in karate, boxing, taekwondo, muay thai, or mano mano block it.

Apoy
09-04-2006, 05:56 PM
I usually let the punch go by. Just imagine if you got punched by Muhamad Ali, De la Hoya or Tyson. They will be powerful and there will be lots. Blocking them all will be very hard but there is no rule saying that you have to stay there (in the same spot).

Dodge, blend, and turn are most effective most of the times unless you get suprised like Michael said. I've been in a few brawls in my life to acutally say it works.

What I find useful in fights is dont concentrate on their punches or attacks. Feel your distance feel their distance and attack their body. You will learn this feeling if you do a lot of weapons.

Gambate ne!

raul rodrigo
09-04-2006, 07:19 PM
High or low they are both straight punches (tsuki). Hooks, roundhouse, upper cuts are versions of yokomen (a curve punch). I 'turn' when there is a straight punch and I blend with a curve punch. When suprised I block it as in karate, boxing, taekwondo, muay thai, or mano mano block it.


Whats Astig Kamao? I ask as a fellow Filipino.


R

Amir Krause
09-05-2006, 01:12 AM
WE practice High punches regularly, and separate the punches as is commonly done in Karate:
Ouzuki - long punch from the reverse side hand with a full step (changing sides).
Giakuzuki - middle range punch, from the further hand with a slide (not changing sides).
and Kezamizuki - short front hand punch, similar to a jab.


We normally start teaching with Ouzuki aimed at the stomach, and slowly progress to Kezamizuki which is commonly aimed at the face, though Giakuzuki is not much easier to handle.

We rarely practice hook punches separately, since the mechanic is very similar to yoko-man except the correct range to throw such a punch is significantly shorter, which should make the situation easier for a good Aikidoka. We do practice Hurraken ( from the inside outwards).

Uppercuts are also rarely practiced, we have practiced some defenses against attacks of similar nature (going up direction). But basically, our practice is not to stay at the area in which making us target to Uppercuts (short range, and in front of the attacker).


All the above attacks are also legitimate and common when practicing randori, thus one should become accustomed to identifying the attack thrown at him and more importantly, train at moving while being under attack and responding intuitively.

Amir

ian
09-05-2006, 03:23 AM
We practise yokomen uchi to the neck, shomen uchi to the top of the head, and mostly tsuki to the chin/face. How can shomen uchi not be a high attack?

High attacks are no more difficult (possibly easier) to defend against than mid level or low attacks. A punch to the jaw is probably the most common attack (in ego fights between men) - a cross (off the back foot) or hook.

The hand to hand connection is certianly the best way to start learning the mechanics of the techniques and how to move with the energy. Suprisingly as well (having looked at probably 50 different real fight scenes on 'comegetyousome.com') grabs ARE quite common in real fights. (though from personal experience I'd say its less common than just normal punches to the face).

markwalsh
09-05-2006, 06:08 AM
Terry Ezra Shihan has a nice DVD which shows some practical defenses against high lunches. Recommended.

Luc X Saroufim
09-05-2006, 10:45 AM
We practise yokomen uchi to the neck, shomen uchi to the top of the head, and mostly tsuki to the chin/face. How can shomen uchi not be a high attack?


oh; our tsuki is to the belly. if it was higher, i would be satisfied. and shomen uchi starts and ends completely different than a jab to the face, throat, or chest.

i'm just a little disappointed that almost a year has gone by and i can't envision merging with one of the simplest and most common attacks.

Ron Tisdale
09-05-2006, 11:52 AM
gamen tsuki is the yosh reference to a face punch.

Best,
Ron

Mike Sigman
09-05-2006, 01:08 PM
Terry Ezra Shihan has a nice DVD which shows some practical defenses against high lunches. Recommended.Any suggestions for high teas? ;)

Ron Tisdale
09-05-2006, 01:20 PM
Yes...add a pinch of cannibus, and some lemon. Gives a little "lift" to your tea...

;)
B,
R

CitoMaramba
09-05-2006, 03:38 PM
In my last grading exam, I had to defend against punches to the face (jodan / shomen tsuki). It was very similar to defending against shomen-uchi. I performed irimi-nage, kote-gaeshi and sankyo, if I recall correctly.

ViciousCycle
09-05-2006, 08:42 PM
does Aikido not train you for this, or am i missing something?

An analogy is in order. I know someone who is a prison guard, and the guards periodically train with weapons. The training is either done with targets that are stationary or with targets that move in a predictable manner. The target does not mimic the unpredictability of a moving human target, and yet the guards still develop proficiency in their shooting skills.

I find that this is similar to the situation when uke attacks me with shomen uchi, yokomen uchi, or munetsuki. These attacks can be frustratingly predictable, just like shooting range targets can be frustratingly predictable. However, there's a lot of room for a person on a shooting range to develop their skill, even if the targets don't move like a real attacker would. There's a lot of room for nage to develop his skill, even if uke sometimes moves in ways different from what a real attacker would.

Every martial art training situation makes some compromise with reality, even at schools that seek 'no holds barred' situations. Even something as brutal as boxing makes compromises with reality, since the boxing gloves limit what your hands can do. It's understandable and worthwhile to seek realism in one's training, but there's never a perfectly realistic training situation. (The only completely realistic way to practice defending your life is to face people who are actually trying to kill you.)

Amir Krause
09-06-2006, 05:05 AM
An analogy is in order. I know someone who is a prison guard, and the guards periodically train with weapons. The training is either done with targets that are stationary or with targets that move in a predictable manner. The target does not mimic the unpredictability of a moving human target, and yet the guards still develop proficiency in their shooting skills.

I find that this is similar to the situation when uke attacks me with shomen uchi, yokomen uchi, or munetsuki. These attacks can be frustratingly predictable, just like shooting range targets can be frustratingly predictable. However, there's a lot of room for a person on a shooting range to develop their skill, even if the targets don't move like a real attacker would. There's a lot of room for nage to develop his skill, even if uke sometimes moves in ways different from what a real attacker would.

Every martial art training situation makes some compromise with reality, even at schools that seek 'no holds barred' situations. Even something as brutal as boxing makes compromises with reality, since the boxing gloves limit what your hands can do. It's understandable and worthwhile to seek realism in one's training, but there's never a perfectly realistic training situation. (The only completely realistic way to practice defending your life is to face people who are actually trying to kill you.)

I agree with all of your statements and still do not understand clubs which choose not to practice with so simple attacks such as all common punches and prefer to stay ONLY with the traditional attacks (Training those does have some benefits).



Amir

Dirk Hanss
09-06-2006, 07:40 AM
oh; our tsuki is to the belly. if it was higher, i would be satisfied. and shomen uchi starts and ends completely different than a jab to the face, throat, or chest.

i'm just a little disappointed that almost a year has gone by and i can't envision merging with one of the simplest and most common attacks.

Our standard tsuki is munetsuke (solar plexus or chest). We also train shomen tsuki, but not before 3rd kyu.

Some techniques are different, but the major reason to avoid them in the beginning, is that the risk of black eyes or knock outs are too high for beginners. A punch in the chest you can take. So uke will punch. Only few uke would launch committed punches to the face or throat. And if many lower ranked aikidoka have problems doing the technique with proper timing and distance. Most would start too early and evade too far.

Dirk

P.S.: yes shomenuchi, yokomenuchi and shomen ate look quite different to boxing punches, but as many people already said: they work the same and if you master them, you can master the others, too. In kihon training, uke normally helps nage by obviously starting the technique and proceed even after missing. That is not sparring but just refining the technique. That usuall is everything one needs for real fights but practical exercises. Some dojo do them, some do not. But you have to take your time. Aikio is budo, but mastering bar fights is usually not the primary goal.

Luc X Saroufim
09-06-2006, 07:46 AM
I agree with all of your statements and still do not understand clubs which choose not to practice with so simple attacks such as all common punches and prefer to stay ONLY with the traditional attacks (Training those does have some benefits).



Amir

hi Amir,

i'm glad you and others are understanding me; 10 months in, i am still a fetus in the Aikido world.

i asked a fellow senior student last night, and he basically echoe'd what a lot of you are saying. you can avoid (tenkan), and turn it into an ikkyo situation, or like someone else here said, irimi nage.

i guess this is why a lot of people don't think Aikido works. you have to read between the lines, and a lot of the lessons in Aikido are the ones your Sensei can't teach you. i like it :)

Amir Krause
09-06-2006, 09:44 AM
hi Amir,

i'm glad you and others are understanding me; 10 months in, i am still a fetus in the Aikido world.

i asked a fellow senior student last night, and he basically echoe'd what a lot of you are saying. you can avoid (tenkan), and turn it into an ikkyo situation, or like someone else here said, irimi nage.

i guess this is why a lot of people don't think Aikido works. you have to read between the lines, and a lot of the lessons in Aikido are the ones your Sensei can't teach you. i like it :)


Hi Luc

In fact, a high punch can be turned into any technique, depending on the exact situation and the defenders confidence in his abilities. Given a large enough advantage it is even be possible to irimi to an hip throw, though I would not recommend that as the first option.

Ikkyo, and Irimi-nage are some of the most basic techniques, and are easier to apply against an high punch. Other techniques are also very easy to apply depending on exact situation, for example, if the attacker retracts his arm it might lead to Giaku-Ude-Garame. Kaiten-Nage is also quite easy to apply if one performs the first touch to deflect and Kuzushi.


I will stop the list here, my memory for technique names is poor, and I was never good in describing the techniques. And the options are limitless.

Amir

Ron Tisdale
09-06-2006, 09:54 AM
Given a large enough advantage it is even be possible to irimi to an hip throw

MMMMmmmmm, ganseki otoshi....good stuff.

Best,
Ron

Luc X Saroufim
09-06-2006, 10:10 AM
great replies, guys! i feel almost foolish asking the question, but this thread has opened my mind to new horizons once again.