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Roman Kremianski
09-04-2006, 08:50 AM
I got a 5th kyu in my dojo who claims he has "naturally good balance" and says he's harder to unbalance with movments such as iriminage ura. You can almost say he brags about it. :confused:

Think it's possible to actually be born with something like this? Sounds like a ridicules question, but a simple google search has failed me. I personally don't notice anything special about him when unbalancing him, other then the fact that he outweighes me by a 100lbs and is harder to unbalance then people my weight.

DonMagee
09-04-2006, 09:00 AM
The act of keeping his balance means he is resisting you. This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it. But in order to keep your balance, you have to make adjustments in body weight or foot position. He could be better at doing that then most people, but that is not the job of the uke.

Gernot Hassenpflug
09-04-2006, 09:18 AM
Good balance doesn't necessarily mean he is resisting, although bragging probably indicates that is an additional factor (which could be taken into account when calculating the "interest" in the throw, hehe). It means that tori has to actually take his balance, rather than uke having given part of it up already through poor balance. If uke has a natural feeling for the backs of his hip bones, equal extension to both legs and consequenct feeling of a centered spine, plus fairly equal tensions in the middle back towards the shoulders (surprisingly many people have more tension on one side than the other), then sure, he will have better balance than most. That translates into more relaxation, and therefore more ability to respond to tori, which can be very good for practice, both in the sense that uke can take good ukemi, and in the sense that tori cna be made more aware of openings. I would count my blessings if I had someone like that around me. I'm sure you guys can work things out amicably...Enjoy training!

Qatana
09-04-2006, 11:35 AM
I am 5'3".
I weigh 105#
It is easy for me to get my balance back when ukeing for iriminage, and sometimes for shihonage. all of my nages are bigger and stronger than me, not to mention considerably more technically skilled.
I do not consider this Bragging. I have asked over and over what should I DO to make this work for nage.The only answer I have gotten is "lead them" and i do not know how to lead someone who is bigger and stronger than me,except for very beginning students who don't have a picture of how the technique is "supposed" to work. Instead of trying to find out what THEY need to do to make me lose my balance they tell me that I am being a Bad Uke.
When it happened with sense i(6'2", 250#,5th Dan) I walked right under his arm and the next thing I knew I was face down in yonkyo, because He knew how to adapt his technique to the Individual, rather than expecting a textbook response...

dps
09-04-2006, 12:33 PM
I have asked over and over what should I DO to make this work for nage.The only answer I have gotten is "lead them" and i do not know how to lead someone who is bigger and stronger than me,except for very beginning students who don't have a picture of how the technique is "supposed" to work.
Quit asking what you can do. It just gives them an excuse to blame you for their inabilities. The job of uke is to attack with intent, consistently throughout at the speed you are practicing at, not to lead nage. The job of nage is to learn the technique and adapt it to any situation. An attacker outside the dojo is not going to lead them into their technique to defend themselves.
Instead of trying to find out what THEY need to do to make me lose my balance they tell me that I am being a Bad Uke.
And if they are attacked outside the dojo with an uncooperative attacker, are they going to tell the attacker he is not doing it right and he is a bad uke?
When it happened with sense i(6'2", 250#,5th Dan) I walked right under his arm and the next thing I knew I was face down in yonkyo, because He knew how to adapt his technique to the Individual, rather than expecting a textbook response...
The next time someone tells you YOU are why they can't do the technique, tell them if Sensei can do it, they should be able to do it.

Roman Kremianski
09-04-2006, 12:52 PM
I'm abit confused. I thought Nage was the one who leads uke, not the other way around?

I somewhat agree though. If uke is not attacking with intent and following through with his attack, he's in no position to be complaining he's not being led by nage. It took me a long time to understand this connection between uke and nage...

Anyway, I guess the balance issue is not that importent for now. The guy I was talking about is still fairly low level, not to mention I'm still getting the hang of "leading" the attacker.

Kevin Wilbanks
09-04-2006, 01:17 PM
I am 5'3".
I weigh 105#
It is easy for me to get my balance back when ukeing for iriminage, and sometimes for shihonage. all of my nages are bigger and stronger than me, not to mention considerably more technically skilled.
I do not consider this Bragging. I have asked over and over what should I DO to make this work for nage.The only answer I have gotten is "lead them" and i do not know how to lead someone who is bigger and stronger than me,except for very beginning students who don't have a picture of how the technique is "supposed" to work. Instead of trying to find out what THEY need to do to make me lose my balance they tell me that I am being a Bad Uke.
When it happened with sense i(6'2", 250#,5th Dan) I walked right under his arm and the next thing I knew I was face down in yonkyo, because He knew how to adapt his technique to the Individual, rather than expecting a textbook response...

Irimi nage ura is a peculiar type of ukemi. After the initial unbalancing and drawing uke off to the side, uke theoretically has all kinds of choices. The exception seems to be the case of a more abbreviated style, where one goes into the second part before they have time to do something else. The more traditional, big way where there is a big turn and possibly even a point where uke stumbles down almost onto all fours only works if uke tries to get up and come around at nage. Uke could easily get up and walk away, turn sharply inward for a bear hug or tackle, or even turn back the other way and attempt a tackle or strike. None of these are considered a part of the proper kata though.

Unlike what has been said, I don't think it is a matter of throwing yourself for them. If you do the ukemi right where I come from and they don't throw you, in one more step your should be facing them and in a great position to either bear hug them or do some other point-blank range attack. Frankly, it's a weird way to respond to the beginning of the technique, which is why I think the abbreviated quarter-turn version of the throw makes the most sense. Even with years of ukemi training, if that happened to me and I really wanted to harm nage, I wouldn't do the 'proper' ukemi. I would probably walk or roll away and regroup, or tackle and wrestle them.

Anyway, it sounds to me like you just don't have the concept for how to take the ukemi given whatever style is practiced there. Sometimes one can go on and on with activities for ages without grasping some key point that would make things work better. If so, nages might be right to complain, if the practice is the kata, as opposed to a do-whatever-comes-up kind of thing. The "fault", however, is with the sensei and other teachers there, since you are clearly interested in learning how, or you could say its the fault of the communication between you. Someone should be able to rearrange explanations and demonstrations in some permutation that will enable you to get it. Have you travelled to other schools and seminars and asked around about how to do the ukemi elsewhere? That's what I would try.

Qatana
09-04-2006, 01:24 PM
"The next time someone tells you YOU are why they can't do the technique, tell them if Sensei can do it, they should be able to do it"

Er, I'm not exactly sure what you are getting at here. It is sempai's Job to show kohai how to do the technique properly. Which means leading them until they know what they are doing.
I don't see that if a 5th Dan who has been training for over 40 years can put down somebody half their size from walking out of an iriminage, then a 5th kyu who has been training for two years should be able to do the same?

dps
09-04-2006, 01:58 PM
Er, I'm not exactly sure what you are getting at here. It is sempai's Job to show kohai how to do the technique properly. Which means leading them until they know what they are doing.
I don't see that if a 5th Dan who has been training for over 40 years can put down somebody half their size from walking out of an iriminage, then a 5th kyu who has been training for two years should be able to do the same?

If you are the uke, and nage is bigger, stronger and technically more skilled than you and you can walk out of his technique, it is because he is not doing or adapting the technique to you and your attack. If a 5th dan with forty years of experience can do it and the 5th kyu can't then the 5th kyu should look to the 5th dan to see how to do it not blame it on the uke.

As uke you learn how to do the attack and how to do ukemi for nage's technique against the attack.

Qatana
09-04-2006, 02:00 PM
oh......we agree.

dps
09-04-2006, 02:03 PM
You are a good uke. :)

dps
09-04-2006, 02:10 PM
Think it's possible to actually be born with something like this? Sounds like a ridicules question, but a simple google search has failed me. I personally don't notice anything special about him when unbalancing him, other then the fact that he outweighes me by a 100lbs and is harder to unbalance then people my weight.

If he is shorter than you and outweighs you by 100 pounds than he is going to have a lower center of gravity than you and be harder to throw.

Or if he lowers his center of gravity by flexing or bending his knees the 100 extra pound will give him more of an advantage balance wise as his weight gets closer to the ground.